>>324173626 >mfw I tried to use it by sidestepping in a room, firing it and dodging to cover to kill hitscanners I love Doom, but the original BFG probably has the most obscure firing mechanics ever put in an FPS.
>>324174732 I think the lack of hoardes of enemies is balanced by fewer weapons, fewer health packs, and less ammo. Its not necessarily much easier than episode 3. Episode 4 has kind of a difficulty spike though
>>324175861 Spider Mastermind is lame. You just look at him and hold the trigger till you win. You at least had to move around and think a little to beat the wall. Only thing spidey has going for him is the awesome theme music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPMVyp7LwIo
>>324169646 Played both this year for the first time. I'd say it's because levels in Doom 2 were very mixed bag, like Episode 4. Also making game spawn army of monsters and dropping invincibility orb at entrance gets old already the second time.
Doom 2 did encounters way better. Doom 1 had way too many rooms that were just imps or just one other enemy. Doom 2 gave you big open areas and fights with all sorts of different enemies working at the same time, which is pretty much the basis of how this sort of gameplay is meant to work.
>>324184808 If everything is working then what's the issue?
Just kidding. It seems perhaps the new version of gzdoom is the problem. I'm on the /vr/ thread right now and two people seemed to have an issue. >>324186264 What's the difference between the two? All what I remember was supposedly gzdoom has better lighting while zdoom closer emulates the originals lighting. If I remember correct zdoom is also better for multiplayer while it also has more wads available for it.
>>324188403 >What's the difference between the two? All what I remember was supposedly gzdoom has better lighting while zdoom closer emulates the originals lighting. If I remember correct zdoom is also better for multiplayer while it also has more wads available for it. >Is this correct? No, they use the exact same multiplayer
You're thinking of Zandromum, which is based on GZDoom and adds server-based multiplayer but is usually many versions behind the latest GZDoom
>>324189358 >>324189487 >enemies exploding into pieces of gore when shot >separate keybind to flip a bird and say "go fuck yourself" >ability to do double flip >Commander Keen in Grosse replaced with Justin Bieber I was genuinely surprised that author wasn't 12
>>324190020 Doesn't matter, might as well start from the beginning. The gameplay is identical in all of them and all of the main games have their good and bad maps. If you like the gameplay you'll probably like them all.
>>324190495 >there are already more maze-like shooters than you'll ever want to play Doom has thousands of WADs and dozens of clones, many of which have their own arsenal of user-made content. I'll recommend one right now: you ever play Marathon, anon?
>>324172172 I loved the SSG then, I hate it now. It's slow as fuck and it's less versatile. It puts out more dps and if someone's bigger you get a 30% damage boost from the 3 extra pellets per shot compared to the SG. It is good for taking down big bads, but they trend towards being less common enemies. It's 30% damage boost is wasted on smaller enemies especially at distance as the pellets are not as tight and controlled as the SSG, which always puts the 7 pellets in a horizontal line midcenter of the enemy. The SSG kind of has a 'square' that all the pellets go in instead. So sometimes it's better to even use the SG.
>recommend Doom to a friend >tells me he likes it >when I finally see him playing it, he's playing ZDoom with jumping, crouching and vertical mouselooking I should've said something before this happened. But then it was too late. I had to take him behind the shed with the shotgun. It was the only way. I'm sorry Chris, but it's better this way.
>>324188403 gzdoom is literally GL zdoom. That's it. Lighting/rendering differences. Older versions of gzdoom had mostly incorrect lighting, newer versions are not flawless but emulate the software lighting pretty accurately but smoother. Zdoom also allows you to scale down to super low doubled pixel resolutions. Why would you lower resolution? Eh, really only gameplay accuracy for shit like invisibility which becomes all but useless at anything higher than 320x200 and has no GL effect equivalent which produces the same lack of clarity, despite multiple effect variations that attempt to do so. Each variation is still absurdly clear in comparison, making spectres useless and invisibility in DM worthless. That's really about it really. But it's very impactful in many situations, like the end of E1M9 in Doom where the ground is textured in a way to be completely noisy and there's like twenty five pinkies that descend upon you from all different directions and you can run into one without even seeing it. It changes things those things up in a huge huge way. It's a slightly different but similar game without it.
>You also realize that autoaim range is not infinite therefore there are enemies you aren't really supposed to hit unless you're at a specific range right? The range is still way higher than you can see.
I'm sorry, I derive no enjoyment from shooting at a wall and hearing monsters yell in pain because they're above the screen.
>Enemies are also infinitely tall just so you know. Only for player movement collision, not for attacks/projectiles.
>mouselook is potentially abusable Just like shit like SR50 is abuse. Who cares? The only map it genuinely breaks if you use it is the final boss of Doom 2, and most people think it's a shit boss regardless so not much is lost
>breaks design. Only in stock maps, but I play more than doom2.wad after a while, y'know?
>>324191765 >It looks awful and there's vertical autoaim for a reason.
Did you miss the part about there being many situations where it's not enough?
Play Back to Saturn X. You're going to wish you had mouselook after a while.
It's not like I use mouselook all the time, I have it bound to a key and it;s only enabled when pressing it
>>324192139 >Play Back to Saturn X. You're going to wish you had mouselook after a while. Could it be that it was designed with mouselook in mind? I almost never felt that the autoaim wasn't enough in 1, 2 or Final.
>>324192794 Also inside room cieling to floor height is 128 units. 1024 units is only 8 times that distance. I lost the link but there's a youtube video which shows all sorts of effects like that maps. There's a map with a bridge that goes out and has demons on both sides and you literally cannot autoaim at the enemies unless you go onto the bridge in the open.
>>324193912 You can use a mouse with Doom. Romero used a mouse. Assuming it's Romero but if it's not, whoever shot the demos you watch when you leave the game, was using a mouse. Mouse is part of the game and it supports 'modern controls' that are rebindable even, almost perfectly except for Y-axis movement on the mouse moving forward and back as well. Otherwise, yeah it works like normal. Sourceports like Chocolatedoom and Zdoom let you disable Y-axis and thus you have perfect controls for it.
>>324194292 Sure, I'm not suggesting there wasn't. I'm just saying without anything stock Doom has that a problem but otherwise way ahead of it's time for input.
>>324193912 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9evdc_k7wyo Also here's a loop/attract mode. The person playing it is shit for this particular one, but watch the movement. Sometimes it's a little odd but you'll notice that the turning speeds change up more and is faster and more accurate than keyboard. A mouse is why. You can watch some of the other ones, a few of the demos are actually pretty decent. They have different demos playing with each version.
>>324193806 The quality's nice; they're soft as fuck. $15 is a bit much for plushes, but I think I got them on sale. The pictures are exactly as they look so if you like em and you're a big enough fan, then go for it if you want.
>>324195060 Don't buy garbage from Bethesda you fuckin retard. Pay someone locally to make a custom one for fuck sake. People do that shit in their spare time, they can cash off it and whatever and you're not handing money over to a scummy corporation.
>>324192257 This, I don't understand why people shit on the city maps. They brought a new atmosphere to the game, and it was fun exploring big open areas for once instead of another series of winding hallways. Maybe they don't have the same "flow", but that's a perk rather than a necessity. I like getting a little lost sometimes, and I don't mind being sniped at from across the map. I like feeling like the littlest guy in a big, scary place I probably shouldn't be in.
>>324195671 It was a pretty good feel >just saved humanity, I am the last person on the planet >waiting for death >suddenly I have to go to hell again to stop the demons, motivation suddenly triplifies >I spawn in a vast open city where the music starts very quietly, that feel when you're all alone overwhelms you, the kind of feel only early 3D games manage to give
>>324195671 I think some of them are kind of OK, but shit like Factory is hardly excusable IMO when most of the map is just a giant shoebox with literally nothing outside of a couple of "buildings". Like, I still have no idea how it ended up being in an actual game.
Also chaingunners on Downtown are very annoying if you play without vertical aiming. A lot of people tend to dislike them already on a principle of being really damage-heavy hitscanners, and here you have them in a position where your auto-aim can't even catch up with them - and they don't have such a disadvantage.
For example of well done city maps, look at Plutonia and its "Odyssey of Noises". Or at Hellbound.
Talking as someone who LITERALLY just before I opened /v/ and saw this thread just finished a playthrough of DOOM 2:
Worse levels and worse enemies apart from Hell Knights and Machine Gun Guys.
Many levels especially in the second half of the game are way too long and convoluted. Maze puzzle solving is great in DOOM 1 because there aren't big open areas with tons of shit. In DOOM 2 you have to find a lot of "hidden" things to progress at all, whereas you generally could play the entirety of DOOM 1 without really getting lost in the mazes.
>Pain Elementals are shit (mostly because Lost Souls have slightly too much HP I think).
>Arch-Viles are the biggest cancer known to man.
>Hell Knights are great since the Baron of Hell is too tanky to be kind of normal enemy and there needed to be another mid-range monster.
>Machine Gun Guys are good and they're not too overused.
>Revenants would be totally fine if their missiles weren't fucking manganized to your face.
>Mancubus are not bad, but they're not great either. Pretty boring to fight.
And in my opinion the Super Shotgun is less satisfying and less interesting than the normal shotgun, but you're gimping yourself a lot if you choose not to use it.
The biggest thing that annoys me with DOOM 2 is that wad makers just go "lets put the worst most bullshit enemies in the game in big ass groups and call it difficulty." So many maps that are considered to be really good that are have dozens of Arch-viles and Mancubus and Revenants all together and are just there to shit on you. That shit ain't fun.
>>324197046 I disagree. The SSG's only sin is being TOO good, to the point that it's all most people end up using 90% of the time.. It's retarded powerful, doesn't eat all your ammo, and is fun to use.
>>324197014 >Arch-Viles are the biggest cancer known to man. I don't think I've ever read an opinon that dumb. >Mancubus are not bad, but they're not great either. Pretty boring to fight. Mancubi are great at punishing mindless strafing without being revenants or using some other convoluted mechanics. One fireball flies at you, one flies slightly at a side.
>>324197680 It really doesn't, unless you're determined to kill everything in every level but somehow missed picking up ammo. Most players, myself included, used the SSG probably more than twice as much as any other weapon. The fact that that's even possible shows that ammo isn't much of an issue.
>>324198002 I can kind of agree with the Mancubus, but I don't I'd like to hear your argument for Arch-Viles being a good enemy. They're tanky as fuck, do a shit ton of damage, and require you to completely change your strategy (which would be a good thing usually but hiding behind a wall and waiting is not fun).
If they had lower health and fired a fire projectile I think they'd be good. Maybe more of a dedicated monster respawning role than a fuck you the hell up role.
>>324198287 >They're tanky as fuck 3 rockets is really not terribly tanky by Doom standards. I agree that they aren't good if overused, but as a high tier enemy they're very good. Something to put the fear of Satan back in you.
Doom 2 could have used monster closets a million times more intelligently. The majority of the time closets open up RIGHT behind you, when they should be opening up on points of the map where you should be expected to back-track to. More like E1M7 in Doom 1.
>>324198190 They're the best fucking enemy in the game, you shut your pleb mouth. Their introduction into a fight instantly forces you to devote your attention to them, whether to break line of sight to avoid their attack or to stop them from reviving more enemies. They don't have so much health that they're a chore to fight, their attack is dangerous but fair, and they have a unique and memorable design. There is literally nothing wrong with them.
>>324192139 >Just like shit like SR50 is abuse. This is not actual abuse because you can't turn when you're doing this and it's not particularly easy to use in the first place.
>The only map it genuinely breaks if you use it is the final boss of Doom 2 It breaks a lot of Plutonia levels If you use the rocket launcher it makes the weapon much stronger. If you use the BFG you can aim at the floor to get your raws immediately.
It is abusable in a way that isn't possible unless you set up stuff Doom was not designed for.
And yes most levels made by the community have no jumping/no mouselook as part of it's design.
>Play Back to Saturn X. You're going to wish you had mouselook after a while. Literally designed for vanilla and no mouselook. Just because you want to make it easier on yourself doesn't mean you aren't breaking how it was intended.
If you want to do that then sure that's your thing, the only people who will yell at you for this is speedrunners if you try to act like your playstyle is valid for anything but fun
>>324198921 >They don't have so much health that they're a chore to fight, their attack is dangerous but fair
I gotta disagree on both points. I'm not saying their health should be like half or anything but the combination of being pretty hard to kill with doing up to 90 points of damage (highest RNG) in one hit make them a royal pain in the ass.
>>324199091 I wish they'd been used just as revive machines. Make their AI prefer reviving over attacking or something.
>>324199158 >If you use the rocket launcher it makes the weapon much stronger. Literally how? The best use of rocket launcher is direct hitting, mouselook doesn't really affect that
>If you use the BFG you can aim at the floor to get your raws immediately. No you can't, the BFG fires straight regardless of vertical mouselook
>Just because you want to make it easier on yourself doesn't mean you aren't breaking how it was intended. Well fuck them then and fuck you too. I don't see why I have to enjoy shooting offscreen enemies. I don't give a shit if they intend for you to do that, it's nothing more than an annoyance.
>>324199363 >Make their AI prefer reviving over attacking or something. But then they wouldn't be the baddest fucker in the room, all you'd have to do is drop a few of the little guys and he'll ignore you. The way it is now is great, because he forces you to run and hide or eat fire, but whenever you do he starts bringing his buddies back.
>>324199319 http://doom.wikia.com/wiki/Rocket_launcher Damage on direct hit + blast ranges from 148-280 randomized. You have to be pretty unlucky to get five of them in a row, but it's definitely happened to more than one person statistically.
>>324199617 >The best use of rocket launcher is direct hitting, mouselook doesn't really affect that
Example >Vanilla mode is on >Monster is moving >Can not lead rockets at all >Rockets suck on air monsters as a result >Enemies below you are no longer a hazard because you can manually aim your rockets
BFG ball will shoot straight unless you start breaking it. Since you have mouselook on it was safe to assume you have BFG aiming also on. If you don't then I'm sorry.
>Well fuck them then and fuck you too. I don't see why I have to enjoy shooting offscreen enemies. I don't give a shit if they intend for you to do that, it's nothing more than an annoyance. Then why are you even playing this game when it was designed like that from the beginning? Why even play what mappers offer if you are going to just shit on what they design around?
>>324199363 >(highest RNG) It is literally impossible for you to be more wrong. The Arch-Vile's attack has no RNG at all. It's a flat 20 damage hitscan plus a 70 damage explosion, which is canceled if you are out of line of sight on the correct frame and can only be initiated in the first place if you are within 1024 units of the Arch-Vile or fired on it from further away. There is no RNG about it. You wanna talk bullshit RNG, look at the fucking revenant. 10-80 damage projectile with a 50% chance of seeking and also a chance of firing back immediately after being shot, even when you're within the range that they would normally only attempt to melee you.
700 health really doesn't take long at all to bring down. That's only four SSG shots or rockets. Plasma is highly effective as well, and it's possible for the BFG to oneshot it before you even take the tracers into account. They're certainly nowhere near as tedious to fight as Barons, who not only take 1000 damage to kill but are also pitifully nonthreatening.
>>324200450 >Then why are you even playing this game when it was designed like that from the beginning? Because it's still a fun as fuck game regardless of whether or not your eyes are bolted to the horizon. I don't care what you say, the core experience of Doom is not being rained upon by enemies above your field of vision.
>Why even play what mappers offer if you are going to just shit on what they design around? Because mappers aren't unquestionable gods and it's possible to dislike design choices. If I otherwise love the maps but I'm annoyed by frequent parts where there's enemies too high to see yet you're still expected to fight them then I use the mouselook instead of not playing.
It's not like I play Brutal Doom or some shit. You purists get a bit too antsy.
>>324201194 I wish every wad had a big flashing warning saying if it was meant to be played with mouselook or jump. I hate playing a wad, seeing some ledge or something, and wondering if I'm supposed to be using jump to get up there or if I'm breaking the map.
>>324201286 ack wads not mods... but yeah I guess sure why not mods too if that's your thing.
>>324201293 They haven't bothered to include it in the readme? Wad/maps are supposed to have a readme included with them that describe the map, you'd think they'd have included mouselook: yes/no and jump/duck as well so you can filter them through the readme.
>>324201293 Just check the intended port in the readme required by /idgames/ for any submission. If it's "Boom" or "limit removing" or "Vanilla compatible" then most likely you shouldn't need jumping. If it's made for ZDoom then expect that jumping is fair.
>>324200345 I like those levels (except Suburbs was kind of meh). The Chasm especially, it felt like Sandy was trying to fuck with me the whole level. >invincibility powerup at the bottom of a pit >when you get it, the elevator SLOWLY lets you out >so slowly the powerup wear off right as you're freed I love that shit.
>>324202747 >Level is made without jumping in mind >Jumping really breaks it >But it's okay to jump and break the level because whatever I do see what you're getting at, and Doom was definitely made with modding in mind. I just don't think breaking a level intentionally through something it was really not designed for should be a thing you do first.
>>324199617 >No you can't, the BFG fires straight regardless of vertical mouselook You ignore oldschool rules, but don't fix BFG aiming? How half-arsed. It's right there with all the other easymode settings you turned on.
>>324194198 >except for Y-axis movement on the mouse moving forward and back as well Am I the only one who still appriciates this? Sometimes I use the mouse to move at analogue speeds (ie slower than max) It is really useful in some tight situations. Of course it's not my primary movement method but it is a very useful tool that allows for precise movement that the keyboard just can't do.
>>324207287 Why would you not want to open the doors...? Do you not enjoy killing demons?! I never leave a map until I think I've killed everything and I end up feeling sad when I see the kill count say 92%.
>>324207996 Also, the rays don't fire in the direction you are currently aiming. They fire in the direction you WERE aiming when you pulled the trigger. You can kill people behind you. And that's crazy.
>>324207063 I hate it. I rarely need that precision and when I do I usually have enough distance to apply a sin angle translation to my movement to offset the needed distance. That is, come in from a shallow angle parallel rather than perpendicularly which changes based on the sin of the angle theta to the parallel position.
>>324208801 The original concept was for the BFG to shoot like a bajillion rockets out of it. But that destroyed the fuck out of framerate touching it. So they scaled it back to have a similar effect with just a single shot.
>>324212376 This >>324173626 Basically you have to weave between the rockets and fire at the right time so the bfg ball launches right as you make contact with the cyberdemon and just do it again and you two-shot a cyber
>>324202252 Yeah those parts are great. Nothing like having to run on a bunch of broken platforms because they sink while making a turn right at the end of the level. It can't get any worse right? Oh lets just make a catwalk that is thinner than the player with lost souls coming out from below to harass you while you are trying to not make a misstep off the catwalk.
Thanks for letting me just frantically run around in those parts until I come to the realization that there is no way to get out of them unlike most areas in the game.
>>324206512 It's weird because in D1TWID they handled that perfectly by having blue/red/yellow doors as entrances and exits from where you hit the switch/got the key so you would get a blue key and there would be a blue door next to it as an exit to the room which would lead straight to the next blue door Strange they didn't continue doing that in 2 but it is called Doom 2 the way ID did so I guess they just wanted to be more like 2 than 1
>>324218746 I guess Im not enough of a purist to take it in it's vanilla form and still find it exciting and representative of the kind of high octane thrills it used to deliver back in the 90's.
I mean, I remember playing Ultimate doom on ps1 and thinking yeah, this is good. But I dont have that sort of faith to the original game other than deferring to it whenever I feel like something over the top violent and badass. I still feel I need to update the sprites, gameplay ect. so I can kick off heads, but the core of the game is still perfect.
Anyway thanks for the help and Im going to get on that right now! Cheers
>>324218470 If you get ZDoom you can have a fine experience. ZDoom isn't considered vanilla in the world of doom since it's fairly different if you don't turn off all the little additions like jumping and mouselook. You can play that and it plays perfectly fine, there is no need to get Brutal Doom just to make it playable, if you're playing on ZDoom it's not like playing on DOS.
>tfw the first time I actually got around to playing Doom and Doom 2 in full was four years ago on a softmodded PSP. It was really comfy. I had the d-pad bound to forward/backwards/strafe and used the shoulder buttons to turn left and right. It was kind of hard to go to keyboard/mouse after that.
>>324219132 >I guess Im not enough of a purist to take it in it's vanilla form and still find it exciting and representative of the kind of high octane thrills it used to deliver back in the 90's. How would you know unless you've played it?
I first played Doom when I was like 7 and sucked at it. Really even though I couldn't pass alot of the maps the aesthetic style and design of the game was what really hooked me.
The first Doom game i actually beat was 3 on Xbox. I remember the special edition came in a pressed tin with demons on the front; man that was cool. I also really liked the game despite everyone moaning about ti which goes to show Ive always loved the style more than the gameplay
>all the guns aim for you >ai is boring and shit, all they do is walk in an aimless circle and throw easily-dodgeable fireballs once every five minutes
Seriously Doom and Doom 2 are easy as fuck after having played literally any FPS and the only way most WADs do difficulty is to constantly spam the only two monsters that are even a remote threat, the Arch-Vile and the Revenant.
Brutal Doom makes the weapons actually fun to shoot and the enemies a legitimate challenge. And if you don't like those, there's options in game to revert both the enemies and the weapons back to their original forms and it just becomes a gore mod then.
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