>>324057043 You know they still have quest logs right? Those still exist if you want to read them. It's just that the marker is added so that people who don't care can still play and the devs make more money.
>>324057043 >go here turn left at the menhir pass the river continue until you see... >let me mark it on that MAP OF THE LAND you happen to have with you instead of giving bullshit directions Yeah I wonder which one people would do IRL if you were carrying around a map. It's also much, much less irritating than having to stumble around trying to find generic cave #36 if the directions are vague.
>One element about Morrowind that received particular, and near-universal, criticism, was the game's journal system. In Morrowind, the player has a journal which is automatically updated with information from time to time following conversations with NPCs and important developments in the plot, each new entry following all those previous. Though IGN and GamePro commended the general interface for its relative ease of use, the journal was almost universally reviled. The journal was found to quickly become a "muddled mess", "hundreds of pages long", without any useful method of organization by quest title or completion level. Computer Gaming World simply called the feature an "anal-retentive nightmare of confusion", and called it one of the game's two greatest shortcomings.
>>324057296 If a game is designed around quest markers, they usually have it as the only location information you can get. Most of Skyrim's quests just have a description in style of "xx wants yy, I should get it from zz" instead of directions.
The best solution would be a bit of both worlds, some quests would give you direct markers on the map (look, let me mark that place on your map) and some would give less direct information (dunno where he is, you could try asking in place x).
>"Open world" >NPCs stand around doing absolutely nothing >Zero world interaction unless the player is involved >Most NPCs are mutes and just stand there mind reading conversations >Clearly hit that guy in the face? Lol no you missed >Enter tavern, can't even sit on a chair >"Best in the series!" - every morrowfag choking on nostalgias cock
>>324057296 >You know they still make games challenging, right? You just have to play them with your eyes closed. You don't have to use them if you don't want to. It should never be up to the player to gimp themselves to fix the dev's laziness. This excuse always comes up, even though the game is always balanced around being casualized.
>>324057464 I was so fucking pissed when I saw that. Even if you turned off the compass they made you rely on it so fucking much that the journal entries were bare bones as fuck about what you were doing.
>Mfw Fallout 4 added the same damn Journal for no reason.
>>324058827 That's because it was totally shit to navigate the journal. In pre-release interviews they claimed you'd have a text search feature for it, but instead we got this mess where all you can do is click every word you can find and pray you remember which entries are relevant to what you're trying to accomplish. This was largely solved in the Tribunal expansion when they allowed you to navigate by quest. The fact that the journal interface was shit doesn't have any bearing on the point of the picture on the OP, which is that navigating by using the landmarks is far superior to navigating by following an arrow.
Then there's the effect it has on world design: for what reason would developers flesh out the world and make it worth exploring when the game mechanics outright discourage exploration in the first place? It's wasted effort, which is why Morrowind had the most unique items, NPCs, and shit to actually stumble upon hidden all around the world and dungeons.
>>324059034 >"Open world" >NPCs have 5 idle animations which they keep repeatingo forever without following any logical patterns expect of day and night >Zero world interaction unless it's any of 15 scripted random encounters like meeting caravan or being ambushed y vampires >Most NPCs have just scripted conversation you hear when you meet them for first time >Clearly hit that guy in the face? Too bad he is just bullet sponge >Enter tavern, can sit on chair and that's all >"Best in the series!" - every casual cunt choking on Todd's dick
>>324058721 Yeah and they ask you if you have a map and a pen if you start looking confused, have you ever traveled? Nobody wants to figure out how to work your GPS. >>324058887 You can disable the in-world marker IIRC if you want to constantly switch between your map view and the game
>>324057896 Do you know when NPCs in TES:Arena marked things on your map? When you were standing almost next to it. Otherwise you just got directions. So you actually had to ask multiple NPCs instead of getting magical alternative to GPS.
I never understood why people compare morrowind to skyrim in that case. Oblivion came out before skyrim and was already using this system, skyrim didn't casualize Oblivion much more than Oblivion casualized Morrowind.
>>324059539 >Morrowind >bad magic combat how exactly? magic in skyrim is simply casting your fireball a few times. You can be much more creative in morrowind, like levitating up and blasting the helpless melee fighters with lightning bolts from above, or applying damage over time effects while engaging in melee afterwards. Sames goes for oblivion. Skyrim has the worst magic system.
>>324059934 I still have no idea why they decided to scrap spell creation altogether. Sure, you could make some pretty overpowered shit, but Skyrim also has its share of overpowered shit with smithing, enchanting and alchemy.
People want things to be easier all of the time. They obviously tested the journals with a sample of their target audience and were met with frustrated whines. So they made it so fucking easy a fucking 8 year old could do it.
And the loot/enemies leveling along with you just completes the cake of casual bullshit, it completely removes any sense of progress or challenge.
Elder Scrolls/Fallout games are complete boring garbage.
>>324059916 Not that guy, but it is true that Skyrim had the most varied combat-oriented magic effects. In previous games every destruction spell was just a different colored ball with the same physics. Skyrim introduced things like flamethrower-style casting, trap spells, resurrecting the dead, etc.
It was a terrible trade-off for losing spell-crafting, but if they ever do reintroduce it It'd be great for it to include Skyrim's cast styles as parameters for your custom spells. Morrowind still has the best overall magic of any Elder Scrolls game before or since. At the current trend it's a fair prediction TES VI will not have any utility spells whatsoever.
>>324060651 You should try Morrowind and Oblivion, then. They're far more similar to Skyrim in world design and gameplay than Arena or Daggerfall are, so it's very easy to compare and see how many features Skyrim streamlined away without adding much to make up for it.
>>324058381 It's an RPG. A *role* playing game. The game provides the proper simulation for you to play the role of a character. Flipping through pages *is* playing the game. It's the closest most convenient analog to remembering shit that people tell you because you're fucking living in that world and it's important.
>this entire thread Since when has the standards changed to more=better? When I was growing up, it was always quality over quantity. Nowadays, all people say is "more more more." Frankly, this direction is scaring me and it's what's wrong with the medium today. This notion that bigger is better. What happened to fun?
>>324059734 you realize nothing's changed since oblivion right? and the so-called "radiant AI" is literally just scripted actions to repeat based on in-game time. The only difference between morrowind's AI and oblivion/skyrim's AI is that in oblivion and skyrim they figured out how to make the AI interact with the environment.
i swear to god all you Skyrim-hailing autists know nothing about what you're talking about
>>324059539 >implying Morrowind doesn't have the worst dungeons unless you're a crazy person who likes copypasted egg mines and ancestral tombs with nothing valuable inside >implying Oblivion doesn't have the best sidequests >implying Oblivion doesn't have better magic combat than Skyrim solely because you don't need to equip it in your hands >implying Morrowind doesn't have utterly dire racial balance >implying Skyrim even has attributes >implying the skill and leveling system in both Morrowind and Oblivion isn't fundamentally broken dogshit that forces you to metagame >implying Oblivion didn't have the best (and surprisingly, most realistic) lockpicking minigame ever
>>324061653 No, it's not. Dispositions, criminality, and all that shit was cut from the release of both games. Everything else is scripted scheduling. The additions in Skyrim don't even involve NPC behavior, just event triggers.
>>324062037 >Morrowind >copypasted egg mines and ancestral tombs with nothing valuable inside >nothing valuable inside u wot? Morrowind has easily the most rewarding dungeon crawling out of those three and no, every tomb shouldn't have artifacts in it
>>324061448 Oblivion's AI is not just schedules, though. In addition to the schedules, it's a simulation with each individual NPC having needs they fulfill based on parameters that define their personality. There's that one Argonian NPC Trainer that's usually dead in everyone's games because she got killed by the guards - not because she was scripted to do so, but simply because her personality was that of a thief and she wanted to eat. You can save her life by keeping her fed.
It's a huge step down from the lies we were fed in the E3 preview, but it's still the most detailed NPC A.I. of any open world RPG. It was mostly dropped in Skyrim because it's impractical to design the game when those emergent elements can fuck up your quests.
>>324062150 Wrong. NPCs in oblivion can commit theft of their responsibility was low enough.
And wrong again on disposition. It was in oblivion and had effects on certain things, for example if a fight broke out and an NPC had high dispersion towards you, they could join in on your side.
They were downgraded from what they were talked up to be, but still present in oblivion. Skyrim got rid of disposition though (and responsibility), and replaced it with simply dislike, neutral, friendly.
>>324063020 >mark something on your map >game is now magically telling you exactly where to go right down to pointing to the small object you're supposed to pick up Did they mark it on the cybernetic GPS locator implant in your brain too?
Tbh if you completely casualised the game but then added anime girls and dating game mechanics /v/ would eat it up. Case in point, Fire Emblem. /v/ is full of casuals. They'll call any mediocre game good as long as they can wag their willies to it.
>>324063020 it has Morag Tong but you're actually authorized to do the killing and need only to show your papers to guards for them to fuck off Morrowind has some great long questlines but they're not as "cinematic" as some of those in Oblivion >huge battle vs Mehrunes Dagon forces >5 guards vs 5 daedra >cinematic
This is a huge deal that alludes to a larger issue spawned in the Bethesda fan base. Skyrim entirely ignores risk/reward in any element other than combat, and with level scaling even that is heavily neutered.
There is little actual reward to exploration if you get the same random shit in every location. There is no "special" place when every place is special. Lightsabers are boring when everyone and their dog uses one to butter their toast.
In the job I have the concept of the dignity of failure is hammered home as one of the things we offer to people who have special needs. Its regarded as an overlooked privilege that typically functioning people have, the ability to fail of your own volition. So its stressed to offer that dignity to people with special needs as frequently as one can.
Yet here we are in the gaming world so carefully cutting out all sharp edges so as to prevent the risk of failure. So much so that people in this thread and so many others actually say shit like "the game punished me for exploring by putting hard things in the way!"
Elder Scrolls games are not that great in general, it's just that they have a monopoly on their niche. It's the only franchise that does this kind of open world RPG with such an ambitious scale. Shame that the games have so many areas where they fall short.
>>324058531 Yup like when you get to pellegiad at the main road if you go on with directions you got from that blade scout in arilles trade house they actually tell you the long way around it's just giving directions on the main roads, vvardenfel is dangerous people wouldn't go off the main road (they warn you not to unless your well equipped) but if you take your first left you'll run into less monsters hit the odai river and get to balmora faster and encounter less enemies. You can even tell from seyda neen it's easier to get to balmora if you go to the odai first except you just don't know that because if you're brand new to the game you've probably already encountered slaughterfish and think that way is impossible when there are none of those in the river.
>>324062902 I feel you. I turned the minimap off in FFXIV and just brought up the map menu because I noticed I was spending much less time paying attention to the world design and more on the top right corner of my screen.
>>324063721 Nah, those randomly generated mazes with a teleport or a shortcut at the end are anything but worthwhile. It's not just handplaced loot, most of the dungeons in Morrowind are build around a certain theme. Sure some of them are just plain tombs without anything interesting inside but they're still hand made and not autogenerated trash. There's quite a few rotten eggs though like the dwemer puzzle box dungeon.
>>324064135 I wouldn't want every single ancestral tomb to be a Skyrim style dungeon with a chest of loot at the end, I'd want them to at the very least have something interesting inside like e.g. some lore and flavor text about the individuals that have been buried there
They're just extremely lazily made and serve no real purpose
There's a MOD for skyrim that's really improving NPC AI, one city at a time. Both combat and non combat. It's called immersive citizens, google it.
For example, this faggot here in whiterun. He claims that he catches his meat fresh from the wilds himself, but NEVER LEAVES THE GATES. The MOD makes it so, I believe once a week or every few days he will actually go out and hunt deer. Once he's killed a few he will head back in.
That's just a scheduling improvement, but it does way more. NPCs can sandbox far more areas, will meat up with other NPCs, do more in general. Makes the world feel less robotic.
>>324065131 They offer very little to no worldbuilding, unless you think generic coypasted ancestral tomb number 38 in the middle of no where with 2 rooms of skeletons and some urns of random alchemy ingredients somehow adds depth to the world
The thing I suggested would be actual worldbuilding
>>324065532 Dungeons in Morrowind aren't randomly generated.
>>324065563 Of course they offer wourldbuilding, every Dunmer family has their burial site, that's stated in books, so in the actual world you effectively have tombs for every family. Some tombs have useful things, some tombs are related to quests, but most of them are just there because they should be there.
>>324063948 Not particularly, no. It's fun to plant poison apples and stuff and watch as NPCs seek them out when hungry, but overall it's a technological curiosity rather than something that adds depth to the gameplay. It's hard to deny that it's a massive change from Morrowind, whose NPCs were fairly static even compared to RPGs without simulations like that.
>>324065786 >Dungeons in Morrowind aren't randomly generated. They're so prefabbed and copypasted that they might as well be, ancestral tombs especially
>but most of them are just there because they should be there. So that's a good enough excuse to not have anything of even mild interest or flavor inside? Even something as dry as a list of people that have been buried there?
>>324059215 Your 100 pound war hammer. Weapon and armor weight was insane in most games which was kind of crazy because the bulk of an adventurers way to make gold would be looting that stuff. It wasn't that bad in Morrowind since there were fortify strength and feather get arounds you could use. I suppose oblivion still had decent fortify strength potions but really sucked not being able to custom make spells for that stuff. >>324059797 Well because Morrowind already cut down on a lot of content from Daggerfal. It gets really pronounced in Oblivion.
>>324059850 Dude that makes no sense, level scale means you can go fight the thing at level 5 and win. Non level scaled means you either HAVE to level up, or find a clever work around like scrolls and potions and stuff but it's going to be a much tougher fight against something that out levels you by 20+ levels. Plus morrowind did have some level scaled monsters roaming around.
>>324066137 I've told you there are tombs with something interesting in them. Near Sadrith Mora you have a tomb that has an entrance to a Daedric shrine. By Azura's Coast (iirc) there's a tomb that has a labyrinth with some interesting unique loot in it.
Morrowind dungeon design is the worst in the series, I'm not arguing that, but the dungeons aren't randomly generated and tombs serve a purpose.
>>324066353 >tomb that has an entrance to a Daedric shrine. >tomb that has a labyrinth with some interesting unique loot in it >Morrowind dungeon design is the worst in the series different anon but I don't follow
>>324066387 >Voiced protagonist and dialogue wheel >Human races only >No skills, just perks >No magic besides elemental damage spells, healing and summoning >Settlement building >90% of quests are radiant "go to this dungeon and kill these things or get this thing from this chest" quests >Only way to get decent items is through hoarding a stupid amount of loot and using it for crafting >Only one real town in the game and it's smaller than Solitude
>>324066806 Exploration in Morrowind is the best because handplaced loot makes you want to go into everything, and that together with the non-leveled world means that you can run into something hard. So there's possible reward, and there's risk and danger, it's nice. However, the actual design -as in, the layout of the dungeons- is most of the time simple and boring, not much better than Skyrim lineal corridors. Some dungeons have complex layouts, but most of them are quest-related, and anyway that doesn't excuse the vast majority.
Now, if you prefer that to more complex dungeons that are randomly generated that's fine, but i'm just saying it like it is.
>>324057043 I really want something that is in between the two systems. Skyrim drags you around by the nose until you get to where you need to be, and it leaves little room for detours and exploration. Morrowind's directions outside of the main quest line are an absolute shitmess and will leave you running around in circles; Vivec help you should you need to get to a location you don't know about within a certain time limit.
>>324068350 According to Todd, never. http://web.archive.org/web/20070907083701/http://fallout.bethsoft.com/vault/diaries_diary1-08.01.07.html It redirects you when the page fully loads, so stop it mid-loading if you can. Otherwise you can reposts of the article on various forums if you search for "Welcome Back to Fallout".
>If there's one thing I've learned over the years, it's that the information never gets out 100% correctly, and you will certainly never be quoted correctly. For the record, I never compared the violence in Fallout to Jackass, I compared it to Kill Bill…big difference. I also never said "fantasy is riding a horse and killing things," but oh well. Ultimately the game speaks for itself (certainly better than I do).
>>324070027 Best I can find is a lot of forums in 2004 discussing it as a quote from a Game Informer interview. There's little reason to doubt the direct quote despite lacking a digital source given the time of release. Analog magazines weren't digitized outside of scans in 2004.
>>324074497 That's more Oblivion's thing, actually. The whole "each npc has its own life and routine". Skyrim's more along the lines of some people have a rich life and others are just there as filling.
>>324076946 Yeah except the game isn't fucking designed for that, it plays in now way like the Morrowind example because Skyrim was made from the ground up for those shitty quest markers. Go into the journal and read about a quest in Skyrim, it's like a fucking sentence at best that doesn't even point you in the general direction of shit half the time.
There's a big difference between giving enough information to get you there, but have an adventure along the way (Morrowind and to some extent Oblivion), and being completely fucking clueless unless you turn on a big annoying marker like in Skyrim.
>Fast travel in Morrowind >Divine and Almsivi intervention, mages teleport, stilt striders, boats, proplyon index, mark & recall >Proper execution involves knowing the structure of the town's and cities and combining the two to get to places quickly
>Fast travel in Skyrim >Click icon on map, man with cart >Cart is actually useless
>>324079075 because the first one sometimes confuses you or give you outright terrible directions
but seriously it's too easy to have a giant arrow pointing your way for you. The journal system is also retarded. There needs to be a way for you to speak to 3-4 NPCs that would help you narrow down what you're looking for. Maybe tie it to faction loyalty, bribes etc.
>>324079075 The first makes you find an in-game solution to your problem. You're a guy within a virtual world and you need to navigate inside that world, interact with people within that world in order to solve a certain problem. This is both elegant and immersive. The second is a meta-game solution. It's a hud-overlay which doesn't actually exist for the player's character within the world, it's only visible to the player and reminds him that he's playing a video game rather than actually being on an adventure in a fantasy world. It essentially takes the player out of the virtual world since in order to reach his destination he needs to look at something which doesn't actually exist inside of it. The game from that point on is about centring a quest marker rather than exploring a fantasy world.
you were discussing the journal as a system that encourages players to look around and discover new things. Cliff racers are the epitome of an anti-exploration mechanic. Even if you're overleveled as fuck they're still annoying. So the journal is thoroughly useless in that regard
The central argument was: one solution provides an in-game solution, the other provides a meta-game solution, and I've told you why one is superior: immersion.
Whether there are cliff racers all over the place or not is completely besides the point because it has nothing to do with the means of exploration, since even if you had quest markers they'd still be there.
>>324057043 I'll be pretty honest, I've downloaded Morrowind and I'm not really enjoying the experience. Which is strange because I usually like games like this, but, I dunno, Morrowind is a bit overwhelming so far I guess.
Also there's a bit of too much repetition in NPC dialog and such.
>>324063020 that probably applies to like a 10th of the times quest markers appear. what about when the marker swaps locations since you reached the previous one, or you don't get the quest from an npc?
>>324081392 yeah as much as I love the immersion it's a massive strain on resources. I wonder if people would accept a massive beautiful RPG with tons of NPCs but only text conversations though. Probably not
>>324084931 Every time you start the game you will always have the same mishmash shit character that can carry battleaxes while casting fireballs and killing dragons that conveniently fly down into melee range to die no matter how hard you try.
Imagine if you could have enchanted pants that made you jump high as fuck and if you had enchanted boots that made you fall slowly after and you had to precisely time your jump to hit a high flying dragon but you couldn't do it with a heavy axe because the weight of the axe reduces how high you can jump.
Now go follow some GPS arrows while eating shit and pretend to be free.
>>324081539 Because it's not 1995. Your game looks like absolute shit if it doesn't have any voice acting. Plus, why the fuck should anyone care about gameplay if you, as a developer, don't care enough to hire a few people to record lines.
Reminder that the jump from daggerfall to morrowind was the biggest casualisation of the TES series. Reminder than your average morrowbabby wouldn't even be able to get out of the tutorial dungeon in daggerfall.
>>324085313 >N-NOSTALAGIA Anon, I was too young to like morrowind or half these other games if I even played them at the time. But now I'm older and can go back and play them and enjoy them for what they do better now that I don't have shit taste anymore.
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