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Welcome to the world of casual gamers.
>>
RPGs in general are casual as fuck so it really dosent matter
>>
>>324057043
There is literally nothing wrong with this.
>>
>>324057043
There is nothing wrong with this.
If Skyrim kept with the journal it would be extremely discriminatory to analphabetic people
>>
>>324057043
You know they still have quest logs right? Those still exist if you want to read them. It's just that the marker is added so that people who don't care can still play and the devs make more money.
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>>324057043
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>>324057207
>>324057295
>>324057296
>Skyrims journal
>I met this guy he needs bear asses follow the compass lol
>>
>>324057295
>don't opress and judge me for being illiterate!
>>
>>324057296
>quest log essentially says to go to the marker
>no directions at all, just an objective
>>
>>324057296
>quest log: go to x cave
>no idea where it is unless you follow the marker
>>
>>324057464
>"Here, I'll mark it on your map"
>>
>>324057296
The skyrim quest log is worthless. The bear asses guy is pretty much right.

Temba Wide-arms needs bear hides 0/10
I should find dickhead's lost brother
etc

No detail. Turning off the compass leaves you fucked.
>>
>>324057324

>diseases are a relevant feature
>hold capitals are the only settlements

I agree with the rest but morrowind circlejerkers are so desperate to shit on Skyrim they'll make up bullshit.

I enjoyed Morrowind, Oblivion and Skyrim, and each has its own strengths and weaknesses.
>>
>>324057043
>go here turn left at the menhir pass the river continue until you see...
>let me mark it on that MAP OF THE LAND you happen to have with you instead of giving bullshit directions
Yeah I wonder which one people would do IRL if you were carrying around a map. It's also much, much less irritating than having to stumble around trying to find generic cave #36 if the directions are vague.
>>
>>324057043

Morrowind was also one of the most broken messes of a game to ever grace our green earth.
>>
>>324057043
This is pretty much bait.

Having to read paragraphs of text in a freaking book in order to do quests is sub optimal.

all it would do is lead to someone making a quest mod so you cans pend more time playing and less time flipping through pages.
>>
The Morrowind system isn't the best, either. Sometimes the directions it gives are just plain wrong and you're left wandering endlessly.
>>
>>324057896
>I lost an item, could you help me look for it? Here, I'll mark it on your map.
>>
>>324058368
>I have never asked for directions
Try leaving the house more often
>>
>>324058382
But that's part of the fun
You are newbie in foreign land, everyone hates you and you know jack shit about that land. Of course you will get lost.
>>
>>324058190
hope you'll get Corprus
>>
>>324057043
>video games have literally just turned into "follow the arrow for 50 hours" cashgrabs
>>
>>324058469
>if you have a map on you
try getting out of the house more often and going more than a few miles away from where you live
>>
>>324058469

Oh, what is this magical device in my pocket? Some sort of magical mapping contraption, giving me directions where ever I may wander?
>>
>Guides didn't exist back then
>Paid hotlines for hints and tips didn't exist

Fucking strategy guide council creeps.
>>
>>324058368
>He thinks people carry around maps
What year do you live in?
Also everyone gives instructions like your first example. You must not go many places or talk to other humans.
>>
>>324058372
all games should let you run like roadrunner and fly forever
>>
>One element about Morrowind that received particular, and near-universal, criticism, was the game's journal system. In Morrowind, the player has a journal which is automatically updated with information from time to time following conversations with NPCs and important developments in the plot, each new entry following all those previous. Though IGN and GamePro commended the general interface for its relative ease of use,[15][79] the journal was almost universally reviled. The journal was found to quickly become a "muddled mess",[20] "hundreds of pages long",[85] without any useful method of organization by quest title or completion level.[23] Computer Gaming World simply called the feature an "anal-retentive nightmare of confusion", and called it one of the game's two greatest shortcomings.[11]
>>
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>>324057324
>more is automatically better
>>
>>324057296
If a game is designed around quest markers, they usually have it as the only location information you can get. Most of Skyrim's quests just have a description in style of "xx wants yy, I should get it from zz" instead of directions.

The best solution would be a bit of both worlds, some quests would give you direct markers on the map (look, let me mark that place on your map) and some would give less direct information (dunno where he is, you could try asking in place x).
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>>324058372
>>
>>324058368
I'd be fine with a map system except it works like a magical GPS with bionic implants telling you where to go rather than a map.
>>
>>324058853
>too much content is scary!
>>
>>324058695
>asking for realism
>in a fantasy game
>>
>>324058190
>I enjoyed Morrowind, Oblivion and Skyrim, and each has its own strengths and weaknesses.

The weaknesses were completely avoidable in the case of Oblivion and Skyrim, though. Why can't we have good graphics, combat and immersion at the same time?
>>
>>324058853
tell that to you girlf- wait forget it
>>
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Morrowind

>"Open world"
>NPCs stand around doing absolutely nothing
>Zero world interaction unless the player is involved
>Most NPCs are mutes and just stand there mind reading conversations
>Clearly hit that guy in the face? Lol no you missed
>Enter tavern, can't even sit on a chair
>"Best in the series!" - every morrowfag choking on nostalgias cock
>>
>>324058827
And it was fixed with one of the expansions by having a quest list. Throw in a search feature and I don't see the issue.
>>
>>324058998
>Why can't we have good graphics, combat and immersion at the same time
Because Morrowind had those, right?
>>
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>>324058947
>>324059014
>look mom I can have daggers made of dogshit AND bearshit
>>
>>324059034
>Clearly hit that guy in the face? Lol no you missed
>hit a guy in the head with a warhammer in Skyrim
>it hits
>he continues to charge you as if you hit him with a piece of foam
>>
>>324057296
>You know they still make games challenging, right? You just have to play them with your eyes closed. You don't have to use them if you don't want to.
It should never be up to the player to gimp themselves to fix the dev's laziness. This excuse always comes up, even though the game is always balanced around being casualized.
>>
>Morrowind's way tells you exactly how to get to your destination
>Skyrim's way tells you the general direction you need to head to get to your destination

Morrowind's way is more casual.
>>
>>324059048
>Cool feature
>Badly implemented
>Instead of fix it, they just cut it all for "follow the compass"
>>
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>>324057464
I was so fucking pissed when I saw that. Even if you turned off the compass they made you rely on it so fucking much that the journal entries were bare bones as fuck about what you were doing.

>Mfw Fallout 4 added the same damn Journal for no reason.
>>
>>324059034
and yet during the 9 years of progress between Morrowind and Skyrim, the latter did not improve nearly any of this.
>>
>>324058770

Yeah, like the white squirel suit in Super Mario! Just cheat your way through the entire game.
>>
>>324058998

Skyrim has best graphics and combat, but poor mechanics and quests.

Oblivion has decent graphics, decent combat, good mechanics and good quests.

Morrowind has meh graphics, poor combat, top-notch mechanics and good quests.
>>
>>324058827
That's because it was totally shit to navigate the journal. In pre-release interviews they claimed you'd have a text search feature for it, but instead we got this mess where all you can do is click every word you can find and pray you remember which entries are relevant to what you're trying to accomplish. This was largely solved in the Tribunal expansion when they allowed you to navigate by quest. The fact that the journal interface was shit doesn't have any bearing on the point of the picture on the OP, which is that navigating by using the landmarks is far superior to navigating by following an arrow.

Then there's the effect it has on world design: for what reason would developers flesh out the world and make it worth exploring when the game mechanics outright discourage exploration in the first place? It's wasted effort, which is why Morrowind had the most unique items, NPCs, and shit to actually stumble upon hidden all around the world and dungeons.
>>
>>324057043
If i remember correctly they tell the locations in dialog.
>>
>>324059034
>"Open world"
>NPCs have 5 idle animations which they keep repeatingo forever without following any logical patterns expect of day and night
>Zero world interaction unless it's any of 15 scripted random encounters like meeting caravan or being ambushed y vampires
>Most NPCs have just scripted conversation you hear when you meet them for first time
>Clearly hit that guy in the face? Too bad he is just bullet sponge
>Enter tavern, can sit on chair and that's all
>"Best in the series!" - every casual cunt choking on Todd's dick
>>
>>324059102

is this a genuine response? are you beyond retarded? can you not comprehend the language you're typing in?
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>>324059420
>best combat
too bad it's still shit tier
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>>324058721
Yeah and they ask you if you have a map and a pen if you start looking confused, have you ever traveled? Nobody wants to figure out how to work your GPS.
>>324058887
You can disable the in-world marker IIRC if you want to constantly switch between your map view and the game
>>
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>>324058853
>WHO CARE'S IF I'M GETTING LESS CONTENT? WHAT'S THERE IS QUALITY!
>>
>>324057896
Do you know when NPCs in TES:Arena marked things on your map?
When you were standing almost next to it.
Otherwise you just got directions.
So you actually had to ask multiple NPCs instead of getting magical alternative to GPS.
>>
>>324059158
>T-there's too much content and too many choices! This is scary!
>>
>>324059539

this isn't even accurate
>>
I think they should remaster Morrowind for current gen
>>
>>324059389
>>324059486
>Zero world interaction unless it's any of 15 scripted random encounters
So, not zero. Also they started having radiant AI since Oblivion so its a step up.
>>
I never understood why people compare morrowind to skyrim in that case. Oblivion came out before skyrim and was already using this system, skyrim didn't casualize Oblivion much more than Oblivion casualized Morrowind.
>>
>>324059158
>Lol poopie XDDDD

Get out.
>>
>>324059539
>skyrim winning NPC design
why? there were not nearly enough memorable characters as both Oblivion and Morrowind
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>>324059034
you forgot that part about rich foreign world without level scaled autogenerated monsters and loot on every corner that destroy the point of exploring and leveling up
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>>324059734
Yeah and what's that point of having them? After 30 hours they are repetitive and the world feels even more artificial.
>>
>>324059539
>Morrowind
>bad magic combat
how exactly?
magic in skyrim is simply casting your fireball a few times.
You can be much more creative in morrowind, like levitating up and blasting the helpless melee fighters with lightning bolts from above, or applying damage over time effects while engaging in melee afterwards.
Sames goes for oblivion.
Skyrim has the worst magic system.
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>>324059539

Actually accurate.
>>
thank fucking god. Who wants to read all that shit? I want to PLAY and not spend time reading literally a full page for one quest.
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>>324059870
Better than nothing at all?
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>>324059850
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>>324059797
It did remove attributes, birthsigns, spellcrafting, some skills, and many spells though
>>
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>>324059307
>video games will never be made with this much passion again
>>
I'm downloading Morrowind right now just so I can argue in these threads
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>>324059539
Fixed for accuracy.
>>
>>324059934
I still have no idea why they decided to scrap spell creation altogether. Sure, you could make some pretty overpowered shit, but Skyrim also has its share of overpowered shit with smithing, enchanting and alchemy.
>>
>>324059965
>"I'd rather eat a shit every hour than no shit at all!"
>>
>>324060098 (You)
>>324059532 (You)

We get it, you hate Elder Scrolls. Why are you doing here?
>>
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>>324059034
Why is nobody pointing out all of this is a lie?
All of these are lies
>>
>>324057043

This was inevitable.

People want things to be easier all of the time. They obviously tested the journals with a sample of their target audience and were met with frustrated whines. So they made it so fucking easy a fucking 8 year old could do it.

And the loot/enemies leveling along with you just completes the cake of casual bullshit, it completely removes any sense of progress or challenge.

Elder Scrolls/Fallout games are complete boring garbage.
>>
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>>324060214
Wow, another shit analogy. Just go fap to your scat and get it out of your system, nobody gives a fuck about your fetish.
>>
>>324059916
Not that guy, but it is true that Skyrim had the most varied combat-oriented magic effects. In previous games every destruction spell was just a different colored ball with the same physics. Skyrim introduced things like flamethrower-style casting, trap spells, resurrecting the dead, etc.

It was a terrible trade-off for losing spell-crafting, but if they ever do reintroduce it It'd be great for it to include Skyrim's cast styles as parameters for your custom spells. Morrowind still has the best overall magic of any Elder Scrolls game before or since. At the current trend it's a fair prediction TES VI will not have any utility spells whatsoever.
>>
>>324059539
MW had the best melee and magic combat tho. Shift your paradigms, senpai. Oblivion def had the best lockpicking, too.
>>
I don't understand the hate for Skyrim, but the only other ones I've played were Arena and Daggerfall. It really only looks like "Because it's popular."
>>
>>324060395
Noone said a thing about scat. Maybe you are too insecure about your own fetish.
>>
>>
>>324060214
>I'd rather have a static world than people moving around!! THEY AREN'T MOVING AROUND ENOUGH!!!!!
Why are you retarded anon
>>
>>324060651
because most of the things removed from morrowind would've been very easy to keep in skyrim/oblivion, and would've made them much better games. It's a waste.
>>
>>324060651
>I admit to not understanding the context of the situation, but I'm going to comment on it anyway
>>
>>324060651
>I don't understand the hate for Skyrim

Because 80% of the enemies are Draguar
>>
>>324060651
You should try Morrowind and Oblivion, then. They're far more similar to Skyrim in world design and gameplay than Arena or Daggerfall are, so it's very easy to compare and see how many features Skyrim streamlined away without adding much to make up for it.
>>
>>324058381
It's an RPG. A *role* playing game. The game provides the proper simulation for you to play the role of a character. Flipping through pages *is* playing the game. It's the closest most convenient analog to remembering shit that people tell you because you're fucking living in that world and it's important.
>>
>>324059539
Oblivion main quest should be green desu
>>
>>324060651
If you didn't play Morrowind then why wouldn't you assume that maybe you might be missing something?
>>
>>324061007
nah, DB was the best questline in Elder Scrolls though
>>
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>>324059934
Screencap this and let me know in 2020
>>
>>324061205
I doubt
>>
>this entire thread
Since when has the standards changed to more=better? When I was growing up, it was always quality over quantity. Nowadays, all people say is "more more more." Frankly, this direction is scaring me and it's what's wrong with the medium today. This notion that bigger is better. What happened to fun?
>>
>>324059734
you realize nothing's changed since oblivion right? and the so-called "radiant AI" is literally just scripted actions to repeat based on in-game time. The only difference between morrowind's AI and oblivion/skyrim's AI is that in oblivion and skyrim they figured out how to make the AI interact with the environment.

i swear to god all you Skyrim-hailing autists know nothing about what you're talking about
>>
Custom spell creation was broken in Morrowind though
>>
>>324059934
The 7th one down is a bit too specific, don't you think?
>>
>>324061429
Here's your (You).
>>
>>324061448
>the so-called "radiant AI" is literally just scripted actions to repeat based on in-game time.
But that's wrong, you fucking retard.
>>
>>324061448
>you realize nothing's changed since oblivion right?
Step up from Morrowind, genius. And before some sperg starts listing other shit we're talking about radiant AI (or lack thereof).
>>
>>324061007
Main quest was shit. Oblivion gates were total shit. Somehow a game centered in the capital of a dying empire had less political scheming than Daggerfall or Morrowind.

Oblivion had a lot of awesome side quests and the Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood quest-lines were fantastic, but that's the most I can praise it for in that regard.
>>
>>324058886
that's pretty fucking neat
>>
>>324059539
>implying Morrowind doesn't have the worst dungeons unless you're a crazy person who likes copypasted egg mines and ancestral tombs with nothing valuable inside
>implying Oblivion doesn't have the best sidequests
>implying Oblivion doesn't have better magic combat than Skyrim solely because you don't need to equip it in your hands
>implying Morrowind doesn't have utterly dire racial balance
>implying Skyrim even has attributes
>implying the skill and leveling system in both Morrowind and Oblivion isn't fundamentally broken dogshit that forces you to metagame
>implying Oblivion didn't have the best (and surprisingly, most realistic) lockpicking minigame ever
>>
>>324061653
No, it's not. Dispositions, criminality, and all that shit was cut from the release of both games. Everything else is scripted scheduling. The additions in Skyrim don't even involve NPC behavior, just event triggers.
>>
>>324059539
I liked Oblivion Main story better than Morrowind
>>
>>324059034
>>
>>324062037
>Morrowind
>copypasted egg mines and ancestral tombs with nothing valuable inside
>nothing valuable inside
u wot? Morrowind has easily the most rewarding dungeon crawling out of those three
and no, every tomb shouldn't have artifacts in it
>>
>>324061448
Oblivion's AI is not just schedules, though. In addition to the schedules, it's a simulation with each individual NPC having needs they fulfill based on parameters that define their personality. There's that one Argonian NPC Trainer that's usually dead in everyone's games because she got killed by the guards - not because she was scripted to do so, but simply because her personality was that of a thief and she wanted to eat. You can save her life by keeping her fed.

It's a huge step down from the lies we were fed in the E3 preview, but it's still the most detailed NPC A.I. of any open world RPG. It was mostly dropped in Skyrim because it's impractical to design the game when those emergent elements can fuck up your quests.
>>
>>324057324
I agree with most of this but Skyrim did have birthsigns in a sense of the word
>>
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>>324062150
Wrong. NPCs in oblivion can commit theft of their responsibility was low enough.

And wrong again on disposition. It was in oblivion and had effects on certain things, for example if a fight broke out and an NPC had high dispersion towards you, they could join in on your side.

They were downgraded from what they were talked up to be, but still present in oblivion. Skyrim got rid of disposition though (and responsibility), and replaced it with simply dislike, neutral, friendly.
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>>324057043
I'm really surprised that they haven't replaced the compass with a minimap at this point.

Minimaps piss me off more than anything. Every game has one now and it kills all sense of exploration.

>playing Mad Max
>"Follow the tire tracks" is my objective
>There's a green line on the minimap telling me exactly where to go and a dot on the screen telling me where they end.

WHY EVEN HAVE THE TIRE TRACKS THEN YOU FUCKING FUCKS?
>>
I was never able to get into Morrowind because of the gameplay, but is there any quest in it as good as the DB quests of Oblivion?
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>>324062732
more like buff shrines
>>
>>324057043
>>324057464
Why are morrowindfags so fucking stupid? The quest marker represents the npc quest giver marking the location on your map for you.
>>
>>324062902
>tfw no minimap in Dark Souls
>>
>>324062902
casuals can't be fucked to pay attention
all they want is to see the next shiny thing
>>
Skyrim will be 5 years old this november.
>>
>>324063020
All it represents is a modern player's lack of patience.
>>
>>324058721
>He thinks people carry around maps
People do you moron, it's called a smart phone.
>>
>>324062732
But they weren't permanent, which means you didn't have to think about which one was best for your character, which means you weren't roleplaying but just using it as a situational buff.
>>
>>324059307
Breath taking how much love went into the game.
>>
>>324063091
http://store.steampowered.com/stats/

this is one of the few times I've seen it drop out of the top 10
>>
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>>324057043
>reading these couple lines of words makes me a hardcore gamer blessed with intelligence
>>
>>324063020
>mark something on your map
>game is now magically telling you exactly where to go right down to pointing to the small object you're supposed to pick up
Did they mark it on the cybernetic GPS locator implant in your brain too?
>>
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>>324059539
>Morrowind
>Best Dungeon Design
Enjoy your 3 corridors and 1 hall with ancestral wraith placed here and there.
>>
Tbh if you completely casualised the game but then added anime girls and dating game mechanics /v/ would eat it up.
Case in point, Fire Emblem. /v/ is full of casuals. They'll call any mediocre game good as long as they can wag their willies to it.
>>
>Casualwind kids never, ever compare their shit game to Daggerfall because they know Dag is better
>>
>>324061205
I doubt they won't have custom spell creation in the next Elder Scrolls, not after having weapon crafting in Fallout 4.
>>
>>324061401
Why? What of the above trend makes you think otherwise?
>>
>>324057043

Oblivion's way is only fun up until you get to those specific quests that are not explained clearly. Same deal with Vanilla WoW. Maybe its fine when you are younger and have more time on your hands.
>>
ITT:-
>opinions aren't a thing, if I don't like something it's shit
>>
>>324062637
The only advantage Morrowind's dungeons have over Oblivion's or Skyrim's is the handplaced loot, gameplay and level design wise they're just dogshit in comparison

>>324063628
>following the compass marker in Oblivion is too hard

You must be legitimately retarded
>>
>>324063020
it has Morag Tong but you're actually authorized to do the killing and need only to show your papers to guards for them to fuck off
Morrowind has some great long questlines but they're not as "cinematic" as some of those in Oblivion
>huge battle vs Mehrunes Dagon forces
>5 guards vs 5 daedra
>cinematic
>>
>>324059610
>instead of getting magical alternative to GPS.

But that spell was useless because lol marker
>>
>>324058886
>unironically posting demotivators
>in 2016

Go back to reddit

>>324057324
>classes
>better than freeform character creation

>resting to level up
>a good idea
>>
>>324062704

so do you have any other examples of the AI being good apart form that?
>>
>>324063340
remember that dungeon with a hidden viking ship burial site that you can find based on random rumours? oh right you don't
>>
>>324062637
>every tomb shouldn't have artifacts in it

This is a huge deal that alludes to a larger issue spawned in the Bethesda fan base. Skyrim entirely ignores risk/reward in any element other than combat, and with level scaling even that is heavily neutered.

There is little actual reward to exploration if you get the same random shit in every location. There is no "special" place when every place is special. Lightsabers are boring when everyone and their dog uses one to butter their toast.

In the job I have the concept of the dignity of failure is hammered home as one of the things we offer to people who have special needs. Its regarded as an overlooked privilege that typically functioning people have, the ability to fail of your own volition. So its stressed to offer that dignity to people with special needs as frequently as one can.

Yet here we are in the gaming world so carefully cutting out all sharp edges so as to prevent the risk of failure. So much so that people in this thread and so many others actually say shit like "the game punished me for exploring by putting hard things in the way!"

Its disgusting.
>>
Elder Scrolls games are not that great in general, it's just that they have a monopoly on their niche. It's the only franchise that does this kind of open world RPG with such an ambitious scale. Shame that the games have so many areas where they fall short.
>>
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>>324063963
You mean this one?
>>
>>324058531
Yup like when you get to pellegiad at the main road if you go on with directions you got from that blade scout in arilles trade house they actually tell you the long way around it's just giving directions on the main roads, vvardenfel is dangerous people wouldn't go off the main road (they warn you not to unless your well equipped) but if you take your first left you'll run into less monsters hit the odai river and get to balmora faster and encounter less enemies. You can even tell from seyda neen it's easier to get to balmora if you go to the odai first except you just don't know that because if you're brand new to the game you've probably already encountered slaughterfish and think that way is impossible when there are none of those in the river.
>>
>>324062902
I feel you. I turned the minimap off in FFXIV and just brought up the map menu because I noticed I was spending much less time paying attention to the world design and more on the top right corner of my screen.
>>
>>324063721
Nah, those randomly generated mazes with a teleport or a shortcut at the end are anything but worthwhile.
It's not just handplaced loot, most of the dungeons in Morrowind are build around a certain theme. Sure some of them are just plain tombs without anything interesting inside but they're still hand made and not autogenerated trash. There's quite a few rotten eggs though like the dwemer puzzle box dungeon.
>>
>>324063963
>remember that dungeon with a hidden viking ship burial site that you can find based on random rumours? oh right you don't

Remember when the grotto with the ship also have one of the daedric mask in it, too?
>>
>>324063723
meant for
>>324062970
>>
>>324063892
>Skyrim
>freeform character creation with any kind of depth
pick one
>>
>>324064135
I wouldn't want every single ancestral tomb to be a Skyrim style dungeon with a chest of loot at the end, I'd want them to at the very least have something interesting inside like e.g. some lore and flavor text about the individuals that have been buried there

They're just extremely lazily made and serve no real purpose
>>
>>324064176
>Broken Oar Grotto
quest related and level scaled
yawn
>>
>>324064883
The purpose is worldbuilding.
>>
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There's a MOD for skyrim that's really improving NPC AI, one city at a time. Both combat and non combat. It's called immersive citizens, google it.

For example, this faggot here in whiterun. He claims that he catches his meat fresh from the wilds himself, but NEVER LEAVES THE GATES. The MOD makes it so, I believe once a week or every few days he will actually go out and hunt deer. Once he's killed a few he will head back in.

That's just a scheduling improvement, but it does way more. NPCs can sandbox far more areas, will meat up with other NPCs, do more in general. Makes the world feel less robotic.
>>
>>324064135
yeah this sucks the life out of vidya, hopefully the trend will end when those games will become so casual and braindead even those retards will notice
>>
>>324065131
random generated trash is worldbuilding now?
>>
>>324065131
They offer very little to no worldbuilding, unless you think generic coypasted ancestral tomb number 38 in the middle of no where with 2 rooms of skeletons and some urns of random alchemy ingredients somehow adds depth to the world

The thing I suggested would be actual worldbuilding
>>
>>324065532
Dungeons in Morrowind aren't randomly generated.

>>324065563
Of course they offer wourldbuilding, every Dunmer family has their burial site, that's stated in books, so in the actual world you effectively have tombs for every family.
Some tombs have useful things, some tombs are related to quests, but most of them are just there because they should be there.

You don't know what worldbuilding means.
>>
>>324063948
Not particularly, no. It's fun to plant poison apples and stuff and watch as NPCs seek them out when hungry, but overall it's a technological curiosity rather than something that adds depth to the gameplay. It's hard to deny that it's a massive change from Morrowind, whose NPCs were fairly static even compared to RPGs without simulations like that.
>>
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TES VI will only have 3 cites
Fallout 4's fort builder will be used to make the rest
Most named NPCs replaced with "peasant", "farmer" etc
>>
>>324065920
Nah
>>
>>324065786
>Dungeons in Morrowind aren't randomly generated.
They're so prefabbed and copypasted that they might as well be, ancestral tombs especially

>but most of them are just there because they should be there.
So that's a good enough excuse to not have anything of even mild interest or flavor inside? Even something as dry as a list of people that have been buried there?
>>
>>324057043
>implying reading logs and searching for hours is any fun
Why do you think vanilla WoW was so shit?
>>
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>>324059215
Your 100 pound war hammer. Weapon and armor weight was insane in most games which was kind of crazy because the bulk of an adventurers way to make gold would be looting that stuff. It wasn't that bad in Morrowind since there were fortify strength and feather get arounds you could use. I suppose oblivion still had decent fortify strength potions but really sucked not being able to custom make spells for that stuff.
>>324059797
Well because Morrowind already cut down on a lot of content from Daggerfal. It gets really pronounced in Oblivion.

>>324059850
Dude that makes no sense, level scale means you can go fight the thing at level 5 and win. Non level scaled means you either HAVE to level up, or find a clever work around like scrolls and potions and stuff but it's going to be a much tougher fight against something that out levels you by 20+ levels. Plus morrowind did have some level scaled monsters roaming around.
>>
Soon you will be talking to people whose first RPG ever was Skyrim
>>
>>324066137
I've told you there are tombs with something interesting in them.
Near Sadrith Mora you have a tomb that has an entrance to a Daedric shrine.
By Azura's Coast (iirc) there's a tomb that has a labyrinth with some interesting unique loot in it.

Morrowind dungeon design is the worst in the series, I'm not arguing that, but the dungeons aren't randomly generated and tombs serve a purpose.
>>
>>324066276
Skyrim isn't even an RPG
>>
>>324057043
boy oh boy i can't weight for fallout 4 with swords and magic anyone else with me.
>>
>>324066362
How?
>>
>>324066241
>Dude that makes no sense
keyword: without
Oblivion and Skyrim are full of that random shit
>>
>>324066353
>tomb that has an entrance to a Daedric shrine.
>tomb that has a labyrinth with some interesting unique loot in it
>Morrowind dungeon design is the worst in the series
different anon but I don't follow
>>
There is literally nothing wrong with the combat in Morrowind, it just has shitty animations that don't show the enemy dodging/blocking/parrying.
>>
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>>324066387
>Voiced protagonist and dialogue wheel
>Human races only
>No skills, just perks
>No magic besides elemental damage spells, healing and summoning
>Settlement building
>90% of quests are radiant "go to this dungeon and kill these things or get this thing from this chest" quests
>Only way to get decent items is through hoarding a stupid amount of loot and using it for crafting
>Only one real town in the game and it's smaller than Solitude

I'm so excited!
>>
>>324066806
Exploration in Morrowind is the best because handplaced loot makes you want to go into everything, and that together with the non-leveled world means that you can run into something hard.
So there's possible reward, and there's risk and danger, it's nice.
However, the actual design -as in, the layout of the dungeons- is most of the time simple and boring, not much better than Skyrim lineal corridors.
Some dungeons have complex layouts, but most of them are quest-related, and anyway that doesn't excuse the vast majority.

Now, if you prefer that to more complex dungeons that are randomly generated that's fine, but i'm just saying it like it is.
>>
>>324066806
Morrowind's dungeons might be mostly dogshit, but that doesn't mean there aren't some real highlights
>>
>>324063560
>I doubt they won't have custom spell creation in the next Elder Scrolls, not after having weapon crafting in Fallout 3.
>>
>>324057043
>played morrowind for hundreds of hours multiple times
>played oblivion once for 80 hours
>played skyrim once for 1 hour
>>
>>324057043
Welcome to 2016, dipshit.

How long have we been complaining about this? We're way past a 'welcome'. For fucks sake, let it go. It already happened.
>>
>>324067108
in my view anything beats computer generated corridors but I can understand your reasoning

>>324067132
not exactly my experience, but some of the dungeons were awful for sure
>>
>>324065146
i'm not buying a game and waiting 5 years for it to be improved and not have terrible ai
>>
>>324067015
Glad this won't happen
>>
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Just turn the quest markers off and make your own journal.
>>
>>324067803
What makes you think so?
>>
>>324057043
I'm sorry I have to pass up all the fun of Elder Scrolls Morrowind: Digital Novel, but I'd rather play a game than read one.
>>
>>324067015
Friendly reminder:

>Fantasy, for us, is a knight on horseback running around and killing things
--Todd Howard
>>
>>324068223
When did Todd say this?
>>
>>324068350
I'm pretty sure he said that around Oblivion's development.
>>
>>324068223
thanks for opening old wounds
>>
>>324068350
In a preview article for Oblivion before the game came out, just google the quote you fag
>>
>>324059712
>wow is better than morrowind since it has more content
>>
>>324068350
He never actually said it. It was put at the top of the RPGCodex review to make fun of him and it spread like wildfire.

Daily reminder that, after Oblivion launched, "RPGCodex" was word filtered on the official Bethesda Softworks forums to "I Love Oblivion".

In response, somebody registered iloveoblivion.com and redirected it to the review in question.
>>
>>324068896
I thought it was Game Informer, Issue 138.
>>
Its probably just have runescape-tier weapon classes.
>>
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>>324067808
>>
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>>324057043
I really want something that is in between the two systems. Skyrim drags you around by the nose until you get to where you need to be, and it leaves little room for detours and exploration. Morrowind's directions outside of the main quest line are an absolute shitmess and will leave you running around in circles; Vivec help you should you need to get to a location you don't know about within a certain time limit.
>>
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>>324068350
According to Todd, never.
http://web.archive.org/web/20070907083701/http://fallout.bethsoft.com/vault/diaries_diary1-08.01.07.html
It redirects you when the page fully loads, so stop it mid-loading if you can. Otherwise you can reposts of the article on various forums if you search for "Welcome Back to Fallout".

>If there's one thing I've learned over the years, it's that the information never gets out 100% correctly, and you will certainly never be quoted correctly. For the record, I never compared the violence in Fallout to Jackass, I compared it to Kill Bill…big difference. I also never said "fantasy is riding a horse and killing things," but oh well. Ultimately the game speaks for itself (certainly better than I do).
>>
>>324070016
>I really want something that is in between the two systems

so oblivion?
>>
>>324070027
I believe Todd Howard
>>
>>324070237
It's almost like believing Peter Molyneux.
>>
>>324070027
Thanks for the link
>>
Do you honestly want games to create huge, expansive worlds that are complete clusterfucks, and then try to navigate through them manually?

If it's smaller/more competently made worlds, sure, but fuck trying to find your way through Skyrim or WoW without a marker.
>>
>>324070027
Best I can find is a lot of forums in 2004 discussing it as a quote from a Game Informer interview. There's little reason to doubt the direct quote despite lacking a digital source given the time of release. Analog magazines weren't digitized outside of scans in 2004.
>>
>>324070027
wasn't it from Game Informer Issue 138?
>>
>>324057043
Oblivion was a good marriage of the two ideas.

The journal was competent without being overbearing, so you could use the journal for clues without having a PhD in forensic literacy minoring in fictional geography and demography

But if you couldn't be fucked anyway, there was a compass
>>
>preferring a game where NPCs always stand still
>>
>>324073838
and all say the exact same thing word for word.

People can cry about skyrim npcs having like 10 lines of dialogue, but even that gave them more personality than npcs in morrowshit
>>
>>324074497
That's more Oblivion's thing, actually. The whole "each npc has its own life and routine". Skyrim's more along the lines of some people have a rich life and others are just there as filling.
>>
>>324073838
Mods makes it so Morrowind NPC are just as active as anything in Skyrim.
>>
>>324057043

Skyrim is better than Morrowind though.
>>
>>324075125
Mods don't count, otherwise you can just fix every problem in every game, ever.
>>
>>324075349
Unless the modding community makes it, you can't fix it, cause you won't make mods, cause you're a scrub who'd rather just buy another game than try.
>>
>>324075451
Maybe I'll buy a better game from a developer that doesn't have to rely on modders to fix their piece of shit product.
>>
>>324075190
I will never not be caught with this bait

please stop

please
>>
>>324075867

It's true.

They're both terrible, awful shit, but Skyrim less so.
>>
>>324075349
There are limits.
Skyrim will never be a good rpg because of shit everything is.

With graphics mods, Morrowind actually looks better than skyrim since the world's design isn't funumentally shit for example.
>>
>>324076120
Not really
>>
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VERISIMILITUDE
>>
>>324057043
JUST TURN THE MARKER OFF YOU WHINING CUNT, IT'S TOTALLY FUCKING OPTIONAL
>>
>>324057324
You forgot

Skyrim
>Looks great, fun to play, masses of content
Morrowind
>Looks like shit, like really it's ugly as fuck, bullshit 'gameplay', looks absolutely terrible, a mud simulator
>>
>>324076946
except the quest notes have pretty much NOTHING to tell you how to get to certain locations or how to find certain things.

It is literally impossible to find it on your own because Bethesda are lazy as hell with any kind of quests now.
>>
>>324077232
I would hate to see what kind of games you play if you think Skyrim's content or gameplay was in anyway engaging.
>>
>>324076946
Yeah except the game isn't fucking designed for that, it plays in now way like the Morrowind example because Skyrim was made from the ground up for those shitty quest markers. Go into the journal and read about a quest in Skyrim, it's like a fucking sentence at best that doesn't even point you in the general direction of shit half the time.

There's a big difference between giving enough information to get you there, but have an adventure along the way (Morrowind and to some extent Oblivion), and being completely fucking clueless unless you turn on a big annoying marker like in Skyrim.
>>
>>324070027
>Ultimately the game speaks for itself
The only thing Todd has said that isn't blatant bullshit and lies.
>>
>>324077232
Anon, you swing a stick at shit until it dies.
Unless you fire a stick or toss a ball.
That's hardly fun.
>>
>>324076946
>JUST TURN THE MARKER OFF
Yeah the quest log saying "FOLLOW THE MARKER TO A CAVE FAGGOT" and thats all really helps.
>>
>>324076292

Yes, literally.
>>
So the people complaining about how casual Skyrim made Elder Scrolls...

How many of them do you think really love the Witcher 3?
>>
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>>324077716
>>324076292
They're both personal opinions anon.
Subjective things can't be right or wrong.
>>
>Fast travel in Morrowind
>Divine and Almsivi intervention, mages teleport, stilt striders, boats, proplyon index, mark & recall
>Proper execution involves knowing the structure of the town's and cities and combining the two to get to places quickly

>Fast travel in Skyrim
>Click icon on map, man with cart
>Cart is actually useless
>>
>>324077908

But TES is objectively not good.
>>
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It doesn't have to be this way, you know. Come to a place where gameplay is valued over all, FPS is a niche genre and whatever is hardcore is an instant success.
>>
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>>324078025
It's not good to you. It might be good to someone else.
How are you objectively right?
>>
>>324078201

But most jap games are bad.
>>
>>324078201
So a lot of japanese play steel batallion, arma3, graviteam tactics, wargame, dorf, quake3?
>>
>>324078280

Because I am.
>>
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>>324078201
And half of the games revolve around jerking off to 2D women?
Sure anon, sure. Quality games.
>>
I wonder if blatant notalgiafagging exists in such force for other game series
>>
>>324078296
>>324078370
>>324078440
My argument is really strongly affected by you being wrong three times in a row.
>>
>>324078403
Because you say it? Anon, this is either obvious bait or a blatant lack of common sense.
Things don't automatically become an absolute truth because you or me believe they are.
>>
>>324078518

You argument is strongly affected by you being a massive, massive weeb faggot.
>>
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Morrowind sucks.
>>
>>324078518
it's ok to jerk off to 2d cat women anon, it's not ok to be in denial
>>
>>324063714
there are good, informed opinions, then there is /v/. learn the difference.
>>
>>324057043
Morrowind has been out for a while now. How good are the mods for the game?
>>
>>324078625
>you or me

No, just me.
>>
>>324078518
Anon, how often do you jerk off?
Seven, eight times a day?

It's either weeb shit or perverted weeb shit.
>>
>>324078201
Most Japanese games are casual as fuck. Not to mention that they have yet to develop a good RPG.
>>
>People actually enjoying the boring shit tier of wrpgs
The only problem here is that the gameplay is also shit, so removing text wasn't an improvement.
>>
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>>324078780
Alright, this is bait. Nobody can be this retarded.
>>
>>324078927

>i dont like what youre saying u just dumb ;____;

Sorry you're so wrong all the time.
>>
>>324057043

Sorry games aren't as primitive as you remember them when you were in college grandpa?
>>
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>>324057043
I don't understand, both do the same things which is getting you where you need to go. Why is one worse and the other better?
>>
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>>324063892
>In the middle of adungeon you are suddenly stronger is better than "you must rest to meditate on what you have learned"

Enjoy your non immersive games shithead
>>
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>>324079041
>i think something is this way so it objectively is

Explain how that is not retarded.
>>
>Casual Shit
Turn base
Way points instead of wondering and learning the world
Bad AI
Artificial difficulty
Quick time events


Can't think of more right now.
>>
>>324079075
because the first one sometimes confuses you or give you outright terrible directions

but seriously it's too easy to have a giant arrow pointing your way for you. The journal system is also retarded. There needs to be a way for you to speak to 3-4 NPCs that would help you narrow down what you're looking for. Maybe tie it to faction loyalty, bribes etc.
>>
>>324079075
If TES had any of the following:

Gameplay
Atmosphere
Interesting locales

You'd be missing out on it.
>>
>>324057043
back in the day it wasn't possible to do it because of technological limitations but nowadays we don't need walls of text any more.

why make the player read when you can simply show? it's a fucking game.

it's simply technological progress, just like books were replaced by movies and tv and newspapers were replaced by internet
>>
>>324066149

vanilla WOW was the best thing that ever happened and also was pretty casual from the start
>>
>>324078201
They cant even be decent at mario kart
>>
>>324079174

Because I say it isn't and I'm always right.
>>
>>324079317
I find disabling the compass and just looking at the general direction of the objetive in the map screen remedies most of this.
>>
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>>324079503
I'm either speaking to a chatbot or a literal autist.
>>
>>324079075
The first one encourages actual exploration.
>>
>>324079416
The sad thing is, there are people that are actually retarded enough to unironically believe such things.
>>
>>324079075
The first makes you find an in-game solution to your problem. You're a guy within a virtual world and you need to navigate inside that world, interact with people within that world in order to solve a certain problem. This is both elegant and immersive. The second is a meta-game solution. It's a hud-overlay which doesn't actually exist for the player's character within the world, it's only visible to the player and reminds him that he's playing a video game rather than actually being on an adventure in a fantasy world. It essentially takes the player out of the virtual world since in order to reach his destination he needs to look at something which doesn't actually exist inside of it. The game from that point on is about centring a quest marker rather than exploring a fantasy world.
>>
>>324079825

It must be really hard for you to breathe if you're too stupid to follow that simple logic.
>>
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>>324063528
that's because no one believs daggerfall is better
>>
>>324079862
>>324079952
so I can find new ways to be ambushed by Cliff Racers? I'm so glad I explored!
>>
>>324079952
That makes sense, actually.
>>
>>324080029
>NPCs are all walking dolls who have the same lines

boy am I glad they fixed that in Morrowind


wait
>>
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>>324080015
That hardly makes any sense. You're just spouting words.
>>
>>324080060
That has absolutely nothing to do with the given argument which is about game vs meta-game.
>>
>>324080060
Can't handle the cliffracers, stay out of Vvardenfell n'wah.
>>
>>324080275

Yes, sentences are generally made up of words.
>>
>>324080428
it has everything to do with exploration

you were discussing the journal as a system that encourages players to look around and discover new things. Cliff racers are the epitome of an anti-exploration mechanic. Even if you're overleveled as fuck they're still annoying. So the journal is thoroughly useless in that regard
>>
>>324080060
Most of the time but you could also discover ancient tombs, be attaced by skelentons guarding ancient tombs or ruins etc.
>>
>>324080551
It has nothing to do with the argument.

The central argument was: one solution provides an in-game solution, the other provides a meta-game solution, and I've told you why one is superior: immersion.

Whether there are cliff racers all over the place or not is completely besides the point because it has nothing to do with the means of exploration, since even if you had quest markers they'd still be there.
>>
>>324057043
I'll be pretty honest, I've downloaded Morrowind and I'm not really enjoying the experience. Which is strange because I usually like games like this, but, I dunno, Morrowind is a bit overwhelming so far I guess.

Also there's a bit of too much repetition in NPC dialog and such.
>>
>>324080821
Morrowind is initially a bit hard to get into, since you don't yet know where to begin. It takes a while to get into but it's definitely worth it.
>>
>>324079825
You are speaking to a literal autist, that will probably pull of the "Hurr durr i only pretended" shit any minute now.
>>
>>324080821
I played it for a few dozen hours and I gave up when the game started asking me to befriend the house leaders.

It's ok. TES was never that good to begin with, though.
>>
>>324080779
alright

it's a shame that solution is dogshit in Morrowind but I'm sure it works much better in other games
>>
>>324063020
that probably applies to like a 10th of the times quest markers appear. what about when the marker swaps locations since you reached the previous one, or you don't get the quest from an npc?
>>
>>324080943

TES is literally shit, that is literally my objective opinion because I am literally always right. This isn't pretending, this is real life, get used to it.
>>
Developers really need to stop this "everything must have voice-acting" BS and focus on the actual quality of the game
>>
>>324081167
>I am literally always right

No you are not, spoiled child. Now go kill yourself.
>>
>>324081392
yeah as much as I love the immersion it's a massive strain on resources. I wonder if people would accept a massive beautiful RPG with tons of NPCs but only text conversations though. Probably not
>>
>>324081398

Try to cover your ears and scream all you want, eventually you'll have to face the reality of me being right.
>>
>>324081590
Try to cover your ears and scream all you want, eventually you'll have to face the reality of being wrong.

You remind me of this kid, www.youtube.com/watch?v=2gLlBv_SrZw
>>
>>324057043

Go back to your wordy as fuck CRPGs from the 90s grandpa.

Fuck I hate older games so much
>>
>>324082161
Fucking die casual trash
You are not worthy of breathing oxygen
>>
>>324081961

I'm never wrong, such a thing would be a fantasy, not reality.
>>
>>324059992
attributes and birth signs are not that big of a loss though. In fact they were pretty pointless.
>>
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You forgot a crucial difference OP
>>
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>>324059797
This.

That and they also killed off Patrick Stewart's character 10 minutes into the game. How do you get big name talent like that and proceed to waste it?
>>
>>324058886
>killing vivec
>>
>>324083420
But that's an ENB, probably with texture mods.
I don't care which one is better or not, mods don't count.
>>
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>>324083694
I mean it's not hard to find a good basegame Skyrim shot
>>
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Friendly reminder that Todd is a manlet.
>>
>>324084115
He's also the most legendary creator of RPGs alive today.
>>
>>324084195
>TES
>RPGs

Pick one.
>>
>>324084115
There is literally nothing wrong with being a manlet

t. 5'6
>>
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>>324063020
>Here let me mark this tomb that nobody has entered for hundreds of years on your map

>While I'm at it I'll also mark exactly where your objective is inside this tomb despite nobody having been inside for centuries.

>What do you mean how do I even have that information? Stop asking perfectly logical questions!
>>
>>324059797
Morrowind isn't free of guilt either
>>
>>324080029
Someone literally wrote this. The Autism is real.
>>
>>324078201
because the only creativity that comes out of japan is that they can make cool looking things

giving those cool looking things a believable and logical purpose in an over-arching world though? nah

dark souls at least did it well
>>
>>324084304
Explain what an RPG is and how TES doesn't qualify.
>>
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>>324084195
>>324084318
What's up, Todd?

Pic related, it's Todd laying the beatdown on some scumbags that didn't preorder FO4.
>>
>>324083639

>actor has less lines
>means we pay him less
>can still use his name to advertise
>>
>>324084458
You literally cannot do what Daggerfall did in 3d. Fuck off with reposting that shit.
>>
>>324066426
You can't role play, there are no roles and no freedoms, every character you make is the same type of generic almighty swill.
It resembles USA.
>>
>>324084637
bruh, i just post that whenever people bitch about TES games being too casual while they worship Morrowind and it's fathomless depths as the greatest rpg of all time, OF ALL TIME.

Also, yes you can if you throw conventional storage limits down the shitter and get clever with your procedural generation if the first option doesn't apply..
>>
>>324084715
>there are no roles and no freedoms
There are quests where you can choose the ending, you're behaving like a child or a shitposter.
>>
>>324060271
minus the hitting someone square in the face and it counting as a miss
>>
>>324057949
Well no shit you're not gonna get any details to find her brother - if she knew where he was he wouldn't be lost now would he?
>>
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>>324057324
>>
>>324057324
>without an option for no armor

Oakflesh and its upgrades don't exist to Morrowind shitposters.
>>
>>324084931
Every time you start the game you will always have the same mishmash shit character that can carry battleaxes while casting fireballs and killing dragons that conveniently fly down into melee range to die no matter how hard you try.

Imagine if you could have enchanted pants that made you jump high as fuck and if you had enchanted boots that made you fall slowly after and you had to precisely time your jump to hit a high flying dragon but you couldn't do it with a heavy axe because the weight of the axe reduces how high you can jump.

Now go follow some GPS arrows while eating shit and pretend to be free.
>>
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>>324057896
>>324058453

>We need to find the artifact of Fuckballs, but it's been lost for thousands of years and noone knows where it could actually be, let alone if it exists.
>Marker appears on the compass
>>
>>324059158
>I just like dogshit
>No thanks, bearshit is too much

That just backfired on you faggot
>>
>>324088253
>It's been lost for hundreds of years but scrungus the infallible knows where it is!
eat shit
>>
>>324081539
Because it's not 1995. Your game looks like absolute shit if it doesn't have any voice acting. Plus, why the fuck should anyone care about gameplay if you, as a developer, don't care enough to hire a few people to record lines.
>>
>>324088505
More like

>Scrunguns the infallible knows where it is!
>You ask him
>He leads you to a trap
>But you can ignore him and find the object's location on your own
>Which is what you have to do anyway

Remember when you had to investigate in video games?
>>
>>324088793
>a few people
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2993508/fullcredits?ref_=tt_cl_sm#cast
>>
Reminder that the jump from daggerfall to morrowind was the biggest casualisation of the TES series.
Reminder than your average morrowbabby wouldn't even be able to get out of the tutorial dungeon in daggerfall.
>>
>>324058947
>>324059579
>Morrowind has <1% the NPCs and explorable region of daggerfall as well as less skills

>often stated as the best in the series
>>
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>>324057043
Morrowind is also fucking casual. Back in my day i had to make these journal entries myself when playing a game!
>>
>>324088505
I bet you didn't understood how the bell puzzle worked in Bioshock infinite
>>
>>324085313
>N-NOSTALAGIA
Anon, I was too young to like morrowind or half these other games if I even played them at the time. But now I'm older and can go back and play them and enjoy them for what they do better now that I don't have shit taste anymore.
>>
>>324089574
>Implying I didn't used my vidya game manual's notes section back in the day even for games as simple as first person shooters
>>
>Muh Morrowind
>muh quicktravel
Daggerfall was a better game, with better more pronounced factions, best part is that it let you build literally whatever the fuck you wanted.
>>
Anon, Skyrim came out in 2011. It's 2016 now. I think it's time you got over it.
>>
>>324089320
>completely computer made mass of emptiness
>much smaller but handmade world
You can't fucking compare the two.
>>
>>324090332
>completely computer made mass of emptiness
sounds like Vivec
>>
>>324061205
Fairly realistic expectatations. Probably more than 6 weapons though. Armour is spot on, I expect no more than chest, legs and shield. Helmets will be accessories with no stats.
>>
>>324064558
But only if you explore it via levitation. Don't forget the ruin with the ancient forge you can only get to from a tomb on a nearby island.
>>
>>324057043
Agree desu.
Thread replies: 341
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