I would, but you posted the non-canon Wii Version. I cannot compute this... noncanonacity that reverses the Triforces of Courage and Wisdom, warps the world, and makes the Hylian script illegible.
Nah, just kidding. I'll tell you. Basically it's a Japanese only thing. Zant and Ganondorf have what you call an Onmyoji and Kami relationship. I'll let an explanation from Legends Alliance take it from here:
"Many Onmyoji were known to bind themselves to a Kami in a life-binding partnership. In such deals, said kami would give power to the Onmyoji, and the Onmyoji would have to fulfill the kami's will. These partnerships have usually been benign, but there are stories of partnerships with malevolent deities and spirits that involve the Onmyoji ending his own life to slay his evil deity and try to cleanse his soul in redemption. There are no tipped scales in Eastern Mythology, if you have a connection that goes one way, it goes the opposite as well. If we apply this to Ganondorf and Zant, then that means that if Zant revives as long as Ganondorf is alive, then Zant can kill Ganondorf simply by refusing to resurrect."
>>323380851 Zant was all about Ganondorf, thought he was a god. Zant eventually gets blown to fuck out, and realizing that Ganondorf wasnt a god and he was used and cast aside, uses magic to snap his neck.
I think Ganondorf's existence in Hyrule was somehow tied to Zant? Like Zant was the medium who was channeling Ganondorf. So when Ganondorf got wrecked, Zant finally had enough of his shit and mercy killed him.
>>323379920 G needs Zant as a foothold to remain in the mortal world, links their lifeforce together Zant knows G is evil but can't do shit to stop him, too weak of mind and body G is weakened from the fighting with link and zelda, can't fully control Zant anymore Zant kills himself to help stop G for good, G dies because no more foothold
Probably completely wrong but that's what I got from it.
>>323379920 GUYS I JUST REALIZED KYLO REN IS EXACTLY LIKE ZANT >built up as the main villain in the trailers but is really just a servant >has a past relation to and betrays a main character and most importantly >has incredibly badass armor but looks like a fuckboy without his helmet
>>323380851 He doesn't snap his neck. I don't give a fuck if there's a 'crack' sound effect or not, tilting your head like that doesn't snap it.
Anyways. Ganon was treated as a god by Zant in the Twilight realm and gained power through that. Zant, Ganon's biggest follower, gives him a questioning look as if he pities him. He no longer worships his god as Ganon kicks the bucket. The 'snap' sound is just to make the scene feel stronger, otherwise it'd come off as awkward or sentimental without it I think.
>>323385617 No. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onmy%C5%8Dd%C5%8D#Onmy.C5.8Dji
Keep in mind before you read that, that the OP who wrote that says he believes the Japanese version also says Zant was part of the royal court (i.e. he was one of the potential heirs with Midna). The English version of TP is horribly translated so that might not be wrong.
When I first read that I did believe it was speaking of demonic possession and the sort, but reading closer and the differences between exorcisms and this relationship I don't think so now. If you're looking for religious analogies; I don't like to divulge this kind of stuff to interested non-believers, because it is more dangerous to one's life to open up to psychic phenomena that you know nothing about than to proclaim that you don't believe in anything (but are still a good person); but Edgar Cayce offers a lot of insight into spirits and the sort. However you should never take an interest in something that YOU aren't ready for. Take this advice from someone who learned a lesson that could make a Stephen King movie because I got cocky.
If you had to ask me, I would say that this is where the idea of Kami comes from. Japanese people are the most psychic prone people in the world if for not more than the fact that their entire country is surrounded by ocean; and living near a large body of water amplifies your psychic powers (that's why Cayce moved from Hopkinsville to Virginia Beach). Of course, no hereditary, environmental, or biological condition makes one who they are. Japanese people tend to be smarted and more technical because in their past-lives they chose those paths. "The spiritual growth that one leaves this world with is the same that they enter with into the next one."
pic related for me: setup as main villain early on (so no ganon outta nowhere), multiple encounters with him each showing progression on links part and that man to man swordfight final boss was just awesome
It doesn't. TWW Ganon's speech was just a leftover from OoT Ganondorf that they wanted to incorporate into the story before they killed him off for good.
My proof is this picture and this interview http://www.glitterberri.com/ocarina-of-time/1101-interviews/ganondorf/. This seems to show a not so evil Ganondorf in what must be the first of many prototypes for this scene because there are at least two others before the final version was shot. >one trailer shows a better model of Ganondorf with a wry smile like Joker, as lightning strikes. >another trailer shows that, but the lightning doesn't strike, implying it was recorded again. >one screenshot shows Ganondorf grimacing in anger in this scene.
Then of course we have the final uglier Ganondorf with shorter hair based on Christopher Lambert. So as the "good" Ganondorf was scrapped there must have been several revisions.
>>323390165 The prophecy thing wasn't necessarily that the one with the spirit of the hero and the blood of the goddess would necessarily an embodiment of pure evil, just a reincarnation of his wrath. So basically it'll always just be an obstacle in their path that exists to ruin everything for them. Even if you do take it literally though, you could still kinda make the case that Ganondorf's hatred and jealousy of the Hylians is in and of itself Demise's wrath reincarnated.
>>323389012 I like TP a lot because it made him a man behind the scenes character who was hinted at from the very beginning and not directly shown until he was able to have what he thought was the upper foothold. I don't like how WW made Ganondorf anything other than a selfish piece of shit, OoT showed explicitly that he didn't give a damn about his people, was I suppsoed to believe that he really was doing everything to help the Gerudo? I don't buy it, I think he's just a liar and would say anything to get the upper hand.
>>323391481 you could always try to fit it in by assuming the original hero is dead and ww link is not a reincarnation or even tangentially related to him and as a result Demise's curse has severely weakened over time letting Ganon become his "own" person
>>323392028 I don't see as WW trying to redeem Ganon in any way, but rather trying to give him a reason for his obsession with Hyrule WW Ganon is still full on evil, he's just also an old man who's had a LOT of time for some introspection.
>>323387043 Why does Ganondorf have to be the main villain of every Zelda game? He's not like Bowser who's been around since the beginning, Ganondorf's first appearance was in OoT after all. Zelda feels like its at its best when it's a different villain in each game.
>>323386696 >Too bad that MM3D raped it by removing most of the symbolism, thank god the painting is still preserved though.
I really have trouble differentiating the people trolling from the genuine nutjobs. For some reason, Zelda attracts some absolutely deranged lunatics, like the crazy fucker who'd post whole walls of fanfiction rants about how Koizumi was at some point some lead lore mastermind who set "subliminal" (I think the guy was trying to say "subtle") mega-plans for the future in all games up to MM.
Truth being that Koizumi wrote a manual backstory that was put in as an afterthought in ALttP, co-wrote LA, and had a role in the brainstorming for MM: The due was always more involved as a coder and had minimum writing credits.
>>323392067 Except that he is the Hero of Time reincarnated. Ganondorf says it in the Japanese version and who would know better than him?
>"Yes, that exactly is the Hero of Time reincarnated. >"I guess the time has come… Fine… Come before me"
He says this after you beat his puppets. Some people argue that he is talking about Link's skills, because of the way he phrases "that exactly," and term he uses "umarekawari" which is more figurative, such as describing an atavism of talents that runs down a family. But of course he says this because he's saying that only the Hero of Time knows how to fight like that.
>>323394239 Like I said, brainstorming. The team had already decided they'd be reusing the same areas over and over with changing events, Koizumi suggested the excuse they used to justify the looping.
The actual event and writing in both MM and Wind Waker were chiefly by Aonuma and Takano. Aonuma did the broad drafting in MM while Takano did the specific script writing, whereas Wind Waker was more of an even-split between them.
And Koizumi was Miyamoto's right-hand man during the N64 era. He was supposed to be be designing a SNES remake of Zelda II, before he was pulled to work on the N64. They stayed up late together coming up with ideas and Miyamoto would call him in the middle of the night to talk about how imagines Mario should move. And then he made OoT. Even if he doesn't write Zelda anymore, he's had a hand in every single Zelda game since ALttP, either directly or influentially (through notes and other data salvaged).
10/10. Made me reply.
>>323394239 Miyamoto came up with the idea of a parallel world inspired by Jumangi and about to be destroyed though.
>>323395468 Because he was sent back in time like it says in the intro, in the Hylian on the intro in Japanese, and like the King says at the end of the game as he is sympathetic because of the fact that he was wrong.
>>323396323 No, they're not. The backstory of Ganon having once being a desert thief called Ganondorf was in as far back as "ALttP". The first game had basically no characterization beyond "Evil pig demon!" and the second game's plot was ignored completely in every single game that followed it.
>>323395662 Ok, fine you got me. I don't have proof other than this, but in this interview he says he came up with the concept of the Kokiri villagers and fairies, and named Epona (and he has to have been the one who named the Sages and Mido). As far as I'm concerned whoever makes the most of a game is the brains and director behind it.
Now, Miyamoto did step in and rewrite a fourth of the script in the last year of development, but OoT was only in development for 2 and a half years. So Koizumi contributed a ton.
Also, there's an interview with Official Nintendo Magazine that I've never been able to find online where he goes into how he came up with MM. It's called "Majora's Mask came to me in a dream."
>>323397457 Really, looking through that archive, this looks less like a troll and more like one Chris-chan-tier legit deranged lunatic. Has he been going around presenting himself as some sort of "eminence" on Zelda lore based on completely made-up crap for YEARS?
>>323386552 >>323395413 Game Theory wasn't the first to come up with that. They just compiled it for idiots. I believe in the 5 stages of Grief theory, but I don't believe the "link is dead" shit. He's not grieving his own death. He's grieving for the loss of Navi. That's the friend he set out to find and in the end he had to accept his fairy was gone and move on, all that through Skullkid's journey and his interaction with his faeries.
>>323386696 >>323396847 >>323397053 I believe the anon is talking about the changes to the textures in the 4th dungeon. It goes along with this theory that the Ikana were basically building the tower as a giant finger to the godesses, and part of that comes from the blocks you move in the temple. The ones that have faces on them sticking out their tongues. In the old one, the tongues reached down to the base of the rocks (their junk) and at the end of it was the triforce. Then the theory goes further to state that the plan was to use a mask at the top of the tower to connect to the Goddesses' realm and prove that the giants and powers of Termina were superior (the damaged alter at the top/bottom of the tower is shaped like majora's mask would fit on it). But the goddesses said fuck that and fuck termina, and they flipped the tower upsidedown. Instead of opening a path to heaven, it went to hell and thus Majora was released into Termina
Don't really believe that part, but it's interesting speculation that was mostly removed in the 3D remake as I recall.
>>323397669 >he has to have been the one who named the Sages and Mido
Why? Where do you get that?
>As far as I'm concerned whoever makes the most of a game is the brains and director behind it.
And where is your indication that he came up with "most of the game"? He's not even the guy credited with the actual writing.
>So Koizumi contributed a ton.
Based on what?
I have no idea where you're coming from here. if I had to make sense of it, it sounds to me like you're starting from "Koizumi made most of OoT" as dogma and then making up a bunch of shit that has no ties with anything you've actually presented. How the hell do you go from "named Epona" to "made most of the game"?
>he goes into how he came up with MM. It's called "Majora's Mask came to me in a dream."
He had a dream of the moon falling. That's one completely different fucking thing than "came up with Majora's Mask". You're trying to make it sound as if he created the game.
Wait, hold on, are you the crazy fucker from above? Because that would certainly explain a lot.
>>323398237 I've always liked to believe that the same people who made the fused shadows made Majora's Mask and after not being able to handle its power sealed it in the stone tower temple after they couldn't handle it, and that the Fused Shadows is basically a Majora's Mask done right before they became the Twili.
I also liked how the theory behind the Heroes Shade being the Hero of Time and TP Link being his descendant, and think it's cool that it's canon.
It's more than that, way more, he is basically conquering his own self, skull kid might be a projection of how people see him, he feels different, he is different, he doesn't belong in hyrule, he saved them all but they all see him as a mischevious brat since no one remembers what happened.
>>323398512 Clock Town = Denial (That moon isn't going to fall!) Deku = Anger (BURN THE MONKEY!) Goron = Bargain (revive me plz) Zora = Despair (no more singing) Ikana = Acceptance (no more masks to hide behind, just himself)
>>323398853 I like your first hypothesis about Majora's Mask being a Fused Shadow, even if I think it's wrong.
>Hero's Shade being the Hero of Time and TP Link being his descendant.
This is about as canon as cyan-hired Goku is to Dragon Ball canon. Which is to say, it isn't.
In before I start a firestorm. The characters in Dragon Ball Super and the new movies act nothing like the characters from DBZ. Not to mention they fall into a vacuum in between the defeat of Kid Buu and Goku's return, where he's looking for a protege in Buu's reincarnaton.
MAY I REMIND YOU THAT GOKU TOLD VEGETA HE COULD HAVE KILLED KID BUU IF HE HADN'T HELD BACK AS SSJ3?
>>323398512 Eh, I just think the overall idea fits. Not in a "coma theory" or "purgatory" way, just in a general "the themes of link's journey" deal. >Link went off searching for Navi after the events of OoT >he travels FAR from hyrule (it's not the lost woods, he's literally in a different country) and winds up encountering skullkid. >shit happens, Link ends up with a reluctant new fairy and they have to quest through termina to save it and (as it later becomes clear) skull kid >the main hub is Clock Town where everyone's dealing with the coming moon differently, but for the most part everyone's just ignoring it or trying to forget the peril. In other words, the majority of the town is in denial. >The first place outside that is the dekus who are just fucking mad about everything and trying to kill the monkey instead of listening to reason. The swamp has also become toxic. Both of these tie to the general theme of anger. >Second is the Gorons which honestly fits the theme the least, but overall the idea is that their land has been frozen and they keep asking others for help with no progress made. Loosely bargaining >Zora's domain is slowly dying and becoming clouded by pollution so you can't see where you're going. Also, the zora bitch is literally in deep depression after the loss of her babies. >Finally, you got the valley of death with the Ikana. The whole point of dealing with the king of the Ikana was for him to come to terms with how their kingdom is long gone. It's all about acceptance and moving on. >Ultimately this comes to a head as Link takes on Skull kid and Majora, reminding skullkid of the friends he had that were worried about him (the giants and the faeries) before taking on this amazing heroic form and vanquishing the demon.
Link learns shit from his adventure, just like most hero tales. The lessons learned allow him to accept and move on with his journey. It's not to be taken super literally, just the morals and themes of the areas fit the idea.
>>323399902 >This is about as canon as cyan-hired Goku is to Dragon Ball canon. Which is to say, it isn't.
Are you this AGTC guy just flipping your name on and off for some reason? Because it's hard to believe there's another crazy fucker coming up with ridiculous theories because he's buttblasted about TWO different canons in two different franchises.
>>323399902 Hero of Time doesn't have a personality and we don't seem him grow old so it's entirely plausible that he was wise enough at the end of his life to think that Ganondorf could find a way to free himself, but no one could succesfully learn his teachings so he became a shade.
Explain the Tree inside the Moon, or explain the 4 dungeons inside the Tree, or the last fight inside the tree as well.
It might not be what that anon said, but Link isn't in the real world, neither the dark world, or Lorule. He lives in a 3 day loop, a number many deranged people get obsessed with, and lives in constant fear of the moon falling.
You don't need to do the same tasks after you've done them once, because in Link's mind he has been through them.
>I came up with the idea that each person living there be followed around by a fairy
That was his shortcut for not rendering characters at a distance. It doesn't say anywhere that he created the Kokiri Forest or the Kokiri. In fact, that entire fucking interview just goes on and on about Osawa being the one who had to do the lore-based justifications for the concepts they threw at him.
I think I'm starting to figure out your insane shit. You just make shit up and hope nobody will check, right?
>>323400520 Eh, I kinda lost track of shit as I was going through that. Like I said, it's nothing really concrete. In fact, I'd say >>323399285 may have it closer. >MM link is the "I went back in time and my heroic adventure never happened" Link >He's a kid that's lost his guide and goes off leaving everything behind >Skullkid is a lonely child that ended up leaving his friends and then embracing a world ending demon in a decent into madness >Link does the usual hero's journey, learns about letting go of some things and moving on with others >In the end, gives it all to Skullkid, helping him understand what's important (fairly generic feelsy shit on that end) >For link, however, all this just leads to him becoming the fucking fierce diety and spanking majora's spirit back to hell, basically becoming the hero he was meant to be/was before the time bullshit >goes on to live a life of adventure and ends up as the hero's shade
It's all fucking autistic stretching of the imagination, but that's really all we got. Majora's Mask clearly has more going on to it than other zeldas with its more dark themes of inevitable death, but Nintendo sure as hell isn't going to give any straight answers about it ever.
>>323401281 >bought the season pass for the dlc because I'm a gigantic faggot >finished the first adventure map and lost all will to play, still severely underleveled to play any other maps with some degree of competence
please tell me they didn't patch out the rupee glitch
>>323383431 Yea, that's what I got from when I played it. I thought Zant was somehow the host for Ganondorf's physical presence since he was just a mass of energy in the twili zone. There's even a scene of him joining with Zants body. Zant is opening his arms and Ganondorfs Yellow head rams into his body
>>323401910 >It's all fucking autistic stretching of the imagination, but that's really all we got.
The first clause is right. The second is pointless. You don't have anything, because there's nothing to have. The game is darker than other game, but you've concocted a completely stupid bunch of shit based on nothing to fuel a delusion that a game that was created by a super-rushed team has some grandiose deeper metaphorical underpinning in it. Especially when none of the games made with actual time to catch their breaths ever had anything of the sort.
>You're just some crazy fanfiction writer way too invested in your own crap.
It isn't hard to understand, the game was built around a established lore, even before MM, they used the concept of "It was all just a dream", which means that it was AlttP Link's subconscious all the time.
>>323402691 >And also, how wouldn't he come up with the Sages when OoT began as Zelda II
No part of that sentence makes absolutely any fucking sense whatsoever.
And besides, considering the goddamn TIME TRAVEL part of the game was tacked in later on, any assumption about what HAD to be in the game based on how you claim it started is fucking stupid. The game started as a first person dungeon crawler like Ultima Underground for fuck's sake. They retooled the thing completely several times over.
>Also, doesn't that say he came up with the Kokiri like I said?
No, are you retarded?
>Koizumi: And not only the script, but the game mechanics benefited as well. The first location is Kokiri Forest. The village has lots of trees and lots of people live there, but it was difficult to display them all at once. >Iwata: The Nintendo 64 system had limitations making it difficult to display many characters at the same time. >Koizumi: I came up with the idea that each person living there be followed around by a fairy. That way, even if we just showed the fairies...
He came up with the idea of putting fairies on everyone, so that they could only show the fairies without having to render them at a distance and save on processing. Where the hell does it say that he came up with the Kokiri or the forest?
Is this why you say all this dumb bullshit? You're just incapable of reading? Or do you have some kind of crazy obsession with Koizumi to the point where your mind just jumps ahead of your eyes and draws conclusion before you finish reading? Is this why everything you say sounds so crazy or has ridiculous leaps of reasoning?
>>323403153 >It isn't hard to understand, the game was built around a established lore
The game was built around Aonuma's idea to reuse locations because they had way too fucking little time to develop everything. Every core writing concept was thrown about as random ideas to justify his design concepts, which coalesced in the final product. Everyone is a clone of OoT characters because it saved time on making new assets. Even the mask stuff is based mainly on mechanics they toyed with but discarded in OoT, and Aonuma thought they could recycle. No part of Majora's Mask was "carefully deliberated." The game itself only existed because Miyamoto had thrown Aonuma a hot-headed dare, for fucks' sake.
Your reasoning appears to be that the game MUST have some absolutely deranged ultra-deep metaphorical underpinning because you're crazy, nothing else.
>>323402635 >I was there a few days after the Death Mountain = Moon thread. >I was on /v/ the night when sites were reporting that Twilight Princess was getting a sequel out of nowhere because it was revealed during a Gamestop meeting. Next day Link's Crossbow Training is revealed. >I was there when a poster named Z revealed he was the guy who discovered the Ocarina pedestal after it started getting some attention. >I was there when that anon discovered the Skull Kid burnt into the ground and nobody believed him including me. In fact I was the sap who made him get on his emulator and post proof. I'm sorry anon!!! I wish I could take back whatever I said!! >I was there when art for Zelda Wii was revealed and Kotaku lied about being present at the show and said that it was Zelda standing behind Link. >I had just come home from highschool track when Spirit Tracks was revealed, and an anon made a thread about taking a tour through all the 4chan boards. >I was there when 48HourGamers became temporarily internet famous for being random college kids who decided to marathon Zelda games for 48 Hours straight. I was in their RE4 competition for a copy of No More Heroes. I got second or third place even though I turned off my camera a fourth way through the game because there was no way I could keep up after the first guy zoomed through it (maybe Cosmo).
I can't believe how much time I've wasted on this site. What a time to be alive. I'm so thankful, that we live in a time where the manifestation of consciousness is such that even in our idle times we are progressing or participating in events of novelty that make our or other's lives better.
>>323399285 >It's more than that, way more, he is basically conquering his own self, skull kid might be a projection of how people see him, he feels different, he is different, he doesn't belong in hyrule, he saved them all but they all see him as a mischevious brat since no one remembers what happened.
Pretty much this. Link and Skull Kid are foils of each other. MM is basically about Link conquering his own personal demons.
>>323403438 >first person dungeon crawler Lies. Koizumi said that idea never got off the ground.
Also, chillax bro. I don't see what you're so worked up about. He was the system director, and the person who made the games as they are now. It's not hard to believe he wrote some of the story, or the finer points that hold it together such as the Kokiri. Their entire being is based on fairies. And the Sages were named after the towns of the game Koizumi was just making. What's so hard to interpret about that? If you reply that to me again, don't expect a reply back.
>Yes. Even as I was making Super Mario 64, I would write down memos of what I wanted to achieve with The Legend of Zelda. Then when I started making The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time, I whipped out those memos and consulted them. >Before Koizumi-san joined, (Jin) Ikeda-san6 and I started it just the two of us!
He wasn't even in the project from the start, and he was making Mario 64 before that.
>Koizumi: Yeah. You might say that, but before Super Mario 64, I had actually been making Zelda II: The Adventure of Link in polygons with Miyamoto-san. >Iwata: Before Super Mario 64... You mean for the Super Famicom System? >Koizumi: Yes. We were experimenting with a thin, polygon Link seen from the side and fighting with his sword. Chanbara was a pending issue at the time. We couldn’t really bring Zelda II: The Adventure of Link into form at that time, but I kept that desire to achieve a sword-fighting Legend of Zelda game until I joined this team.
This just says that he had been working on another prototype game. Because that's what Koizumi mostly did: programming. Where did this whole idiotic link that says he MUST have had to come up with the Sages base don this come from?
>>323404639 >It's not hard to believe he wrote some of the story, or the finer points that hold it together such as the Kokiri.
You have some crazy obsession with believing that the guy HAD to have done all this, right? Because you're saying that because he possibly COULD HAVE, that means he did? Even though there's no indication whatsoever that he did?
>Their entire being is based on fairies
The interview literally states that they were having problem rendering them all at once, and the fairy thing was the solution. They existed before that. Also this:
>Iwata: With regard to that, it is often said that when it comes to making a Legend of Zelda game, the game mechanics come first and the script later. Osawa-san, thinking up the script was your job, right?
Any reasoning that starts with assuming the writing was done first and the design second is doomed. the interview says right there that they kept throwing concepts and mechanics at Osawa and he had to come up with the story stuff to accommodate them.
>And the Sages were named after the towns of the game Koizumi was just making
Those names were in the original AoL that Koizumi had fuck-all to do with. He didn't come up with those names. He was making some polygon-based prototype based on AoL that got shelved. How the hell do you go from "he was making an experimental system to make AoL using polygons" to "the names present in the original game he didn't have any involvement with definitely had to have been his idea"?
You're either a troll, or just actually fucking nuts.
>If you reply that to me again, don't expect a reply back.
Have I triggered you by insulting your faith or some shit?
>>323406134 You are really this invested in that stupid theory that you have to validate it at all costs?
The game is about link trying to stop the moon from fucking over Termina and get back Majora's Mask.
There is no greater convoluted secret meaning to it, just as there is no such thing in any other game in the series made by these exact same people but with way more time to think things through. You seem to be assuming that pointing out your beloved theory is nonsense MUST be accompanied by proposing an equally deranged one to take its place, because apparently you've invested so much into this crap that you can't accept you've been wanking yourself to nothing.
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