>>323018969 Barebones how? You have 10+ classes, each with multiple abilities, dozens of enemies, dozens of curios, trinkets and quirks, currently 10 bosses, several factors like positioning or light affecting your battles, stress management as an added layer.
>>323019863 >those things don't add anything because... because I say so
Every game with some RPG elements has fiddling with numbers, and about 99% of them have RNG. You have no fucking argument at all. It's okay to not like this game or its genre, it's okay to be horrible at video games, but it's fucking braindead to say the game is bad when you have zero arguments supporting that. Just go play something nice that you like.
>your characters will die so you cant connect with them I just don't want them to die. It's the reason I hated Massive Chalice because your characters are guaranteed to die. I want to emotionally invest in them but I can't.
>>323020559 Yeah, kind of like, you know, equipment and traits in every fucking game with RPG elements ever. Why is this strange to you?
This game doesn't involve any math beyond simple addition and subtraction so even little children should be able to do it. Despite that it seems it poses a challenge to you but that's okay, as I said, it's not like anyone forces you to play this.
>>323019496 The game has a lot(well more like moderate) amount of facets that are all kind of shallow when actually examined.
The classes are one of the game's few strong points gameplay-wise.
Dungeon design is literally just randomly generated corridors and rooms with things of interest randomly distributed throughout them.
Enemies are okay. They're not particularly exemplary in any way, but they do their jobs. Enemy design and variation is a core part of a shitton games though. Darkest Dungeon doesn't really excel besides in art. Taken individually, no particular enemy has any extreme amount of depth. That includes many of the bosses which have overall shallow movepools, a single gimmick, and are recycled instead of revamped for higher difficulties.
Curios are literally just a learn what's useful, what's not, and what depends on luck. Or you can look at one of the many spreadsheets on them. After you know what a specific curio does you know about every other iteration you encounter of it.
Quirks are hope you get good ones, hope you don't get the very bad ones, and spend a bunch of gold to clear them if they got really bad on one of your A-teamers. The last part exacerbating the grind of the game.
The reason it feels barebones is due to the amount of recycling though. Instead of progressing through different and varied dungeons as you go along. You've got the same few dungeons and then harder iterations of those very same dungeons. Weald, Warrens, Ruins, Cove, and the as of now unreleased Darkest Dungeon. There's very little difference between the lower level and higher level variations. You fight 3 versions of each boss that are essentially just difficulty adjusted statblocks. Progression for your characters is upgrading your abilities, weapons, armors, and finding better trinkets rather than actual ability progression. Simply doing what you did slightly better than doing anything new.
>>323020908 Yeah I don't think you know what you are on about mate. Risk management is planning for the worst whilst hoping for the best, and planning around that accordingly. There is little difference in execution to Blood Bowl which is also a game where you can make all the right moves, and still have nuffle fuck you over. DD is no different. Hell it is very much like Warhammer Quest but with more control over your potential fucking.
The game style just isn't for you anon. That doesn't make it bad or wrong.
>>323020768 While I'm not disappointed in it, I kinda could see use to more customization. Actually, it kinda brings to mind their stretch goals point, for the recruit sharing. Why would It matter if I get to use your exactly the same as mine bounty hunter? Food for thought I guess.
>>323022509 >if you don't want a player to die or get injured you can try to position them properly so they can't get attacked If you know what moves the enemies can use and from which positions to which positions, you can do this as well
>>323021407 >Dungeon design is literally just randomly generated corridors and rooms with things of interest randomly distributed throughout them.
What is funny is that this works for Warhammer Quest. Which is even more brutal than DD. The mechanic isn't really as shallow as you make it out to be. At best it lacks some more variety in its implementation and visual layout.
I imagine that a lot of this lack of variety comes from a combination of how their programming works since shit is laid out everywhere with the animation coding looking like a complete clusterfuck, and all the art needing to be drawn instead of computer generated.
Hopefully mods will expand upon this in future once we know the final framework for the game so people can start properly working on stuff.
>>323022509 So you think 24 moves with different positive or negative status effects, damage types, amount of enemies hit, position change on your side or theirs, crit chances, stress etc etc in battle is not enough? How many would you say isn't shallow? Just give me your idea of how you'd "fix it."
>you waste turns if you get shuffled into the wrong spaces >waaaah mommy the game doesn't just give me a win button ;_; Awww, that's okay little anon. It will feel better over time.
>>323022509 >Are you retarded? Blood Bowl has actual depth, so if you don't want a player to die or get injured you can try to position them properly so they can't get attacked.
Yeah, no. You can't avoid rolls forever in Blood Bowl. Be they dodging, blocking, going for it, etc. All you can do is minimise how many of those rolls you need to take through your own choices and try to stack the odds in your favor, usually requiring other rolls to do so. You are just managing risk.
DD is no different in the sense that you know things will eventually go bad, so all you can do is prepare for it and try to stack those odds. If you want to argue that BB has more nuance to it, fair enough, but it is the same in concept and arguably execution.
They are both risk management games. And by the sounds of things risk management games just aren't for you.
>>323022509 >What strategy is there once you click embark? Do you just randomly chose characters, then randomly click on a quest or what? The first thing is planning, you chose carefully your heroes according to what quest and level you are going to do (and do look at what their fucking quirks are, and do fucking upgrade their equipment), same thing for the provisions, you don't take a shitload of antivenom in the cove for example and you don't have to touch every curio you come across. Then for the combat it's just basic shit, you debuff/stun/focus/push/pull enemies to your advantage, you try to take as little damage as possible, this shouldn't be too hard if you don't have ADHD.
>>323023536 >you don't have to touch every curio you come across I think that's the thing with people who complain about the game being too hard. They don't read and just touch anything that is available meaning their heroes get well stressed and badly quirked
>>323023536 >Then for the combat it's just basic shit And if everything didn't take three fucking skillchecks, then maybe it could be more than just basic shit and actually make tactics somewhat useful.
>>323023326 Yeah he is really arguing the wrong part of the game being shallow there. The moveset upgrades are shitty for their cost, but the core concept behind the movesets and setup is great. There is also enough variety that I haven't really found myself in a situation where I was unable to build a viable team when I have a bunch of my regulars doing their stress management.
>>323022230 Look at nearly any other game with random map generation. Darkest dungeon's actual map generation is some of the most shallow in existence losing out even to extremely old tile-based roguelikes. As well as more modern ones.
For a positive example, consider Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup with its vaults. Human-designed segments that may be interspersed randomly throughout the dungeons. There's an excessive amount of them, specific vaults for every type of floor, and both rewards and risks abound. But even ignoring those, the different sub-dungeons all have varied designs and layouts unique to them.
DD's dungeons are extremely generic and don't even offer any true uniqueness to actually exploring any dungeon type. There's nothing to do with terrain. No dungeon-specific obstacles or events. The only differences are enemies, a few curios, and some slight changes to how the corridors are laid out.
Regarding enemies with shallow movepools, if they win often despite that, it's because they punish heavily to anything that does not have an answer to their specific movepool. This is where DD's classes come in, that's where the game's strong point lies however. Though this does lead to homogenized team comps, there's a large variety of compositions.
Curios are ludicrously simple examples of risk management. Three choices, you ignore it, you interact with it, you interact with it and use an item. If you get any experience with the game, you'll develop rules on how to deal with them in a split second and move on immediately. They're there, but they're shallow.
If you can't see the grind, then I really can't make you see it. It's a subjective matter at heart.
On that last bit, I'm guessing you honestly haven't played that many RPGs or at least not very good ones.
>>323022935 Maybe. For all the art in Darkest Dungeon, they're literally all just different skins of the single room and corridor. There's a missed opportunity to have the art do something gameplay-wise.
>>323024110 >turn order relies on RNG, stuns rely on RNG
No it relies on SPD. Which you can buff with abilities and trinkets. Also some quirks. There will still be things like hounds that can likely go before you, but that is something you need to factor into your strategy.
>and you can always get surprised (can you guess what has the final decision on whether you get surprised or not?)
Whilst true, there are things you can do to reduce that chance. Significantly in fact. Keep your light level up. Equip trinkets that reduce that chance. Use camp abilities that also reduce it. When camping swap your team order around so if you are ambushed and surprised you end up in the right order for the fight in the dark.
It is like you are either unaware of how strategy in general works, or just haven't bothered to actually learn how the game works.
>>323024110 >turn order relies on RNG But it doesn't you fucking retard, do even read the stats of your heroes and enemies?
>stuns rely on RNG So does basic attacks that you can miss and enemies can dodge. Increasing your stun skills and having bonus stun trinkets greatly increase if not guarantee your stun chances. Also read what are the resistances of your target before you take a decision.
No, it's simple and boring because planning is useless. There's no tactics to it. You don't know the turn order, and it gets shuffled. Damage ranges go from about half to 100%, then there's crit, the hit check, and resists. There's at least 4 layers of RNG to anything you try to do, so you end up playing everything the same.
>>323024395 I don't think you understand. Part of the skill is in planning what you do in order to rig the RNG in your favor.
>Scouting Equip scouting trinkets or use scouting camp buffs
>Turn order Use high speed characters and speed buffs
The cost of preparedness, measured now in gold - later in blood If you don't prepare adequately for a dungeon, you will die. Yes, it is possible to do everything right and still get fucked by the RNG, but you can say that about every single game that has RNG in its combat
>>323024271 >Maybe. For all the art in Darkest Dungeon, they're literally all just different skins of the single room and corridor. There's a missed opportunity to have the art do something gameplay-wise.
I think you are blaming this game for not being more than it is, and holding it up to a standard that it never claimed to be. Given what they have to work with the game is actually pretty amazing, though I think it is probably only worth the 10USD I got it on sale for. Or at least as it currently is. Depends on how the final update goes.
It was never trying to be some super in-depth roguelike. It was just a thematic game of risk management. And it very much delivers on that.
I asked how you can fully protect a character from RNG fucking them
You said you can make it less likely that RNG will fuck them, which isn't the same thing, and is the main problem with DD because it revolves around fiddling with numbers so the RNG will fuck you less.
>>323025473 The Prophet I proper fucked. Had an Arbalest and something else ranged. And a Man-At-Arms up the front. That was the first time I tried out his Riposte ability. Everything got its shit smacked. I didn't even need to destroy his barriers. Just shot, blighted, and countered the fucker. Good times.
>>323025491 All I wanted was a turn of someone not being in the fucking pot.
>>323024271 >look at Stone Soup Wow, what's next, Ultima 7 or Baldur's Gate 2? They are completely different games. The room-corridor system exists to balance out the torch and camping mechanics. >actually exploring It's not a game about sightseeing. It's about going into a dungeon full of mindbreaking horrors, keeping yourself together long enough to do what you came to do and then getting the fuck out.
You once again just explain what it is and then say it's ludicrous. What's so ludicrous about that? Where's the bad part? How would you improve curios? Try to make some arguments.
>even though you always get enough gold to remove all the shit quirks, removing shit quirks is grindy, I can't make you see why Well ok chief.
On that last bit, I'm guessing you honestly haven't played that many RPGs or at least not very good ones.
>>323025646 Then stop playing the game you autistic fuck. >slot machine guy Holy shit, I started lurking these threads like 2 weeks ago and almost every fucking time I see you saying the same fucking thing.
>>323025074 Possibly, I just tire of seeing people hype it up though. Regarding actual gameplay depth it never impressed me.
My older brother even made me buy it for him for 20 bucks when it initially released on early access even since I use Steam regularly and he wasn't familiar with it. My brother who normally buys every triple A title including such games as Fallout 4 and MGS5(despite not playing the MGS 1 or 2 or 3) on release.
Since it advertises itself as a strategic risk management roguelite I also end up comparing it to actual roguelikes.
Which are usually free.
There's also the RNG will eventually fuck you over factor. I can't see how people defend that factor so hard. It essentially neuters the ability to get emotionally invested in the game too hard or makes you hate the game once it does fuck you over if you do get invested.
Roguelikes including the classic ones of old are games you can consistently win at with enough knowledge and practice and it's considered a standard to achieve design-wise with death purely being the player's fault. Don't just ask me, ask the roguelike general on /vg/ which has experience with over dozens. Though yeah, they rip on any roguelite super hard for a variety of reasons.
>>323026078 Fair enough mate. But in all honesty I think that you are holding it up to a standard it isn't really trying to be. Though I do get your lack of appeal for it due to the lack of room for emotional investment in your heroes. I think its target audience is just those that understand that that isn't advised to begin with.
I just hope that their code is flexible enough for people to make some decent mods for it and open up the possibilities. If they end up locking down the files for final release I will be beyond pissed. The way they have it now is both their greatest strength and weakness.
>>323028272 This, the rnd might be a harsh beast at first but once you've ridden it for a bit it turns pretty tame. You'll learn how to prepare for each worse case scenario or how to prevent it, and the game loses its fun factor by making you stress if anyone going to die.
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