Knockdowns and hard-knock are all what fighting games shouldn't be about.
What was a simple idea for a knocked opppnent to gain time and think of a comeback ends up being just a way to ruin the momentum for the one who is still standing and puts the loser in even more pressure (known as oki) from which he can hardly escape.
Vortex and 50/50 mix-ups are known to be the whole reason SFIV sucked a game where every single noob could get a win not because he played good but because he grinded for knockdowns in order to force his guess game onto the opponent.
Alternatively in 3D fighting games such as Tekken a knockdown is also an instance where you need to constantly make the good guess it can profit to only one side and even the one who did manage to knockdown his opponent can see his advantage because of it.
Is he gonna kick high or down? Is he gonna throw me on wake-up or do me a low sweep?
And if I guess wrong I lose the whole round after an awfully long juggle all because of one knockdown.
You can tech them but the timing is too thight(to work in laggy matches) and doesn't rreward you enough.
For some reason in VF teching the knockdown puts you at disadvantage even more and most of the time just letting a hard knockdown take place is always going to annoy the other player.
In a game like Tekken making this guess is fatalistic as one wrong guess means you lost the round.
Knockdowns shouldn't exist in fighting games a knocked opponent should wake up instantly (without being able to get hit until completely standing)
All this is is a guess game, its humanly impossible to guess correctly everytime therefor winning or losing doesn't depend on skill but on luck.
Its just a pic.
Wake-ups are also part of the problem since you have to guess between the sloppy wakeup DP, grab or cr.k cancels.
What are your thoughts on moving wakeup like in Darkstalkers? Any time you're knocked down, you get the choice of waking up in place, or while moving forward or backward. Makes it harder for the opponent to throw something out on top of you, since they won''t know exactly where you'll be.
Thats actually great, I think they should remove them completely.
Actually gettng HKD for mashing is a good idea.
It shows they understand how those guess games didn't work in the end.
I think this shouldn't even be a choice although its good.
System like these SFV and 3rd strike are what every fighting games should be like.
Tekken and virtua fighter are stupidly unfair teching knockdown demands precise timing but you are not rewarded instead you put yourself at risk more often and you can escape attacks on downed opponent all the time.
>Vortex and 50/50 mix-ups are known to be the whole reason SFIV sucked a game where every single noob could get a win not because he played good but because he grinded for knockdowns in order to force his guess game onto the opponent.
what a clueless retard
>Vortex and 50/50 mix-ups are known to be the whole reason SFIV sucked a game where every single noob could get a win not because he played good but because he grinded for knockdowns in order to force his guess game onto the opponent.
How come people always come up with a similar excuse when it comes to SF4?
>I lost to a scrub so this game is bad!
You lost to a scrub because you're a retard.
It's always the same reasoning, just different flavors
>SF4's wake up options allow scrubs to beat me!
>SF4's DPs allow scrubs to random me out!
>SF4's ultra allows scrubs to clutch a win!
If you could be randomly scrubbed out, why are the same top players consistently getting top 8?
High-Low guessing at close range is just as bad as knockdowns, but really if you get that close you both fucking deserve to eat a half health combo so it's not really all that bad, and it can be fun as fuck to predict a low kick and counter with the appropriate move whereas okizeme games aren't nearly as fun, the only fun is derived from winning due to them.
>If you could be randomly scrubbed out, why are the same top players consistently getting top 8?
Because obviously the Top 8 are all people who hate SFIV and would much rather be playing a superior SF game but continue to play SFIV for the money.
OP probably ate a raw ultra trying to use a meaty on a knocked-down opponent.
I can do this shit anymore I'm just gonna hide this thread and go on with my night
Stay retarded /v/
>the SF4 defense force is here
This shit has nothing to do with SF4, although OP might think otherwise. Knockdowns have always been shit. What fighting games need to do is get rid of corners and use knockaway rather than knockdowns, this way matches would end up being mostly neutral game and zoning. The only purpose knockdowns and corners serve is shortening fights which is perfect for an arcade game but pointless on consoles and pc. You might say "but then zoning would be too strong" but that's not the case. Someone that's not throwing fireballs or is throwing less fireballs than the other guy can catch up to the other guy, non-projectile characters already move faster than zoners, and if they need extra speed due to the lack of corners it can be easily given to them without disrupting the neutral game too much. With these simple changes fighting games would become much more skill based, the only significant cost would be that tournaments would last even longer.
Maybe in baby's first fighting game, SFIV, knockdowns were shit and became a major focus of the game, but in real fighting games, they're awesome.
What's your goal in the neutral (footsies)? Three things. Damage, knockdown, or corner carry. Damage is core, but if your damage only ever end with an opponent standing upright, you're either going to have nonstop pressure from the first person to land a hit, or you're going to stand still and trade hits until someone dies. Corner carry is good, because there's a dynamic relationship between options in the corner and in midscreen. But see the problem with damage; if your attacks only ever end with an opponent standing up, you're going to have nonstop pressure from one person or you have a totally bland game with two people trading punches from one spot on screen.
Knockdowns provide a break for both players. The person getting knocked down has a moment to think, and to attempt to escape from pressure, whether it be blocking on wakeup, reversaling, or backdashing, or throwing. However, they're at a disadvantage, because their opponent outplayed them and scored a knockdown and that's how fighting games work.
The person who scored the knockdown has an opportunity to continue pressure, but must think carefully. They can bait a reversal/throw if they can out think their opponent. They can force a block on wakeup with some sort of oki and retain their momentum. They can throw and further frustrate their opponent if they have a good read.
Remove knockdowns, and you have a shit fighting game. Also OP you're a faggot I can't believe I responded to this trash go back to play smash dickfucker
Well replacing knockdown with knockaway and keeping corners would still be extremely skill based and would shorten tournaments so I can see why you'd prefer to keep them in. I don't really see much value in the corner game though. Sure if you get knocked into a corner you've certainly fucked up enough to deserve a disadvantage but I don't think actually giving the person that disadvantage makes the fight any more interesting, just more likely to end quickly. Either way I certainly prefer corner footsies to corner knockdowns.
I'll give it a shot.
I have never said that I'm a better player than somebody nor did I eat a wakeup ultra.
I'm not making up anything when I say that it is easy to lose to bad or undeserving players in USF4 because you ate that knockdown you constantly tried to avoid.
If anything if anyone wants to play against me we can run a set on steam I'm EC.
Also I'm not only talking about SF, and the mechanic being there forever doesnt mean its not bad.
This is yet another problem ( in 3D fighters )
People constantly backing off after they inflict a knockdown.
No matter how you look at it the problem is always the knockdown.
If the flow of a fight is interrupt then everything keeps going normally and no momentum is lost for the play with the upper hand.
Knockdown were thought as a way to let somebody comeback before the game is over but the prevalence of techs and the necesity to make street fighter easier than 3rd strike made them shit.
They don't provide a break as they are they just add more guess game.
Unless you automatically wake up then nothing is resolved.
In 3D fighters knockdowns profit to the loser.
In 2D they profit to Zangief.
I like the corner game.
Only thing I slightly dislike about it is how you can sometimes reverse the positioning and all the neutral work went to shit.
Some characters gotta work hard for that corner carry, mang.
If they're throwing projectiles they can't run away, you'll eventually catch up, unless they're playing Akuma. Furthermore running away usually means jumping backwards, and it's certainly reasonable to time your own fireballs to hit them as they land.
3rd strike and SFV does it well.
Why not all the other fighting games.
I think SFV has the best system.
You can't get hit while waking up and you only get Hknockdown if you mashed.
You know what else is unfair? Hit stun. Why should my attacks be interrupted just because the other guy is kicking me in the face? Combos are even worse. Matches should all be decided based solely on who can execute the largest amount of high damage single-hit attacks in the shortest amount of time.
>/v/ talking about competitive ANYTHING
Fucking end this.
>I play garbage like street fighter so all fighting games are about knock downs
If only there were more options in the genre...
When your opinion is stupid it doesn't make people want to talk.
If knockdown a ruin fighting games that means the genre has never been good. And if that's true you just don't like fighting games.
Which is fine. But don't pretend a core mechanic in every fighting game is bad.
Guessing is a part of fighting games. If an opponent is + on block and close, maybe he'll tick. If you guess wrong you get thrown.
It's a similar guess to waking up. So should we remove that too?
In sfv you now have 4 options for wake up making the guess work on the attacker.
quick get up
delay get up
If you try and safe jump what would've been a safe jump in 4 and the defended rolled back it might not be safe anymore.
And what if you're playing a character with no fireballs huh?
Ryu just gets to run away while you jump around like an idiot trying to catch up to him since there's no corner and he eventually just DPs you when you get close.
Corners reward good neutral and offensive play and make zoning something more than just running away and throwing plasma.
It is not a core mechanic anything can change from one iteration to another.
How is it fair for somebody who techrolls having to guess between low,high or grab?
Weren't knockdowns supposed to let you breathe?
Besides teching a kd is hard so whats the point since you're better off ruining the okizeme.
Sorry if some people think forcing a guess is the pinnacle of skill
But I ask you what you think is wrong with SFV system then described here >>322828980
What is wrong in adding invincible frames to a waking up foe?
>Weren't knockdowns supposed to let you breathe?
The exact opposite in fact.
>How is it fair for somebody who techrolls having to guess between low,high or grab?
You heard it here folks, let's remove all mixups from fighting games.
>Besides teching a kd is hard so whats the point since you're better off ruining the okizeme.
>teching a kd is hard
What the fuck
>set something up, projectile or close gap or command throw
That's kinda what I mean by break. Can't throw dem fireballs or close dat gap if they're punching your shit in anon
Mixups ruin the game you fucking retard.
A 50/50 is why sf4 suck ass.
You did not read it here, everyone complains about it and SFV completely removed them.
Now answer the question.
How is it fair?
>pick fei long
>move a shitton faster than ryu
>bait dps and punish
Aside from that this can be very easily fixed by just making forward movement way faster than backwards movement with a run command like in KoF games, or if you want to be fancy a forward dash that can turn into a run like in God Hand. On a similar note KoF's i-frame rolls + the run would make it dead easy to move in on someone that was just running away throwing fireballs to the point where it's basically not even a viable strategy at all. Still though, I can see what you mean. It wouldn't be particularly fun to play against someone that's playing the safest game possible by just running away, especially if you didn't have the run and the roll.
Also you can't use "he'll just DP you" as an excuse. Baiting DPs is often a big part of fighting any character that has one whether there are corners or not. In fact if you ask me, i-frame anti airs are almost as shitty as a mechanic as knockdowns are. They could be easily fixed as well. The thing is a dedicated anti-air special move shouldn't actually give you any special advantage against a grounded opponent the way an i-frame DP does. If you just made the attacking limb's hitbox stretch out significantly farther than its hurtbox jump ins would be very unlikely to actually hit the user, whereas attacks from the ground still could. Also the hitbox should be higher up so that it can't actually hit someone that's on the ground unless they're basically in throwing range.
You just posted that knockdowns are the reasons infinites exist
I'm not talking about setups or mixups
I'm talking about infinites
Please good anon show me a youtube clip of an infinite caused by a knockdown
And then kindly fuck off back to reddit to pretend to know what you're talking about
and regular rise
It also has invincible backdashes on wakeup which are essentially the same thing as a tech roll. Listen, it's nobody's fault but your own that you can't properly utilise these mechanics.
The major difference between SFV and IV is the speed of the wakeup game.
SFV also doesn't have forward rolls, that's king of fighters.
His high offense is in exchange for his piss poor health, there is only one seth player that can consistently make it to top 32, why is Seth /v/'s sf4 boogeyman
If you don't want mixups then fighting games aren't for you.
>Vortex is the name given to any situation where the opponent is put in an almost totally ambiguous and guess riddled situation, there being only a few ways out, if any. Akuma's flip is actually just called the demon flip, but it's a prime example of a vortex (in sf4 at least) because he can throw you, armor break you with a knockdown, start a combo and make it hard to react by ticking it off normals and mixing up with throws as well as os selecting his demon flip throw (this was way less risky in SF4). His early fireball cross up is also part of that game for him (or was in sf4...notice a pattern?). Other characters with vortexes are: Gief, because of his wake up game with SPD ticks, cr. LK combos, short jumps (is that still in Super?) and OS green hand. Ibuki, because of her guessing game with Kunai on wakeup. Abel because of the totally situational ways to get out of f. MK pressure (I play him and it's still a hard guessing game).
>If I could punch you again and again a dozen or more times in a row and you couldn't stop me—you literally could not raise your hands to block me or step away to stop my attack—we'd call that a rout and a beating. If that happened in a fighting game, in Street Fighter, for example, we'd call that an infinite combo. You'd be angry. You'd probably call foul.
Google. Learn to use it.
One is inescapable.
The main issue here is that yeah you can design the game to overcome these problems but it'll still be tedious as hell to fight against zoners and for what? Removing a mechanic that many people love or are indifferent about? Not worth it in the long run.
And yes I agree, invincible anti airs being invincible on the ground is annoying as hell, just give them upper body invincibility or something.
>You can't use DW, a mechanic SPECIFICALLY CREATED TO DESTROY VORTEX on hard KD
>You can't backdash on hard kd
Stop being a retarded baby, SFIV is shit for a lot of reasons but the vortex is completely escapable by every character if you use the mechanics afforded to you.
Jesus I can't believe I'm defending SFIV.
It used to have damage.
And Gief still does, though that'll probably change.
Ono also hinted at big buffs on release so we'll see.
Tekken teching does not require tight timing. Just lay there and/or take a hit because you are fucking invincible during tech.In Tekken, if you aren't an ignorant dumbass then you just fucked up and got launched.
Persona (I assume anime in gen) is much worse. Your options are tech or delay tech, amd any good character will make you block all day into a safejump. You need to choose your moments well or you eat 40%. If you DP you eat up to 70% lol
Alright, what is with all these posts complaining that fighting games are fighting games what do they want?
/v/ is the absolute piss at fighting games
>I think fighting games would be great without meter.
>I think fighting games would be great without mixups.
>I think fighting games would be great without corners
>I think fighting games would be great without throws
>I think fighting games would be great without knockdown
>I think fighting games would be great without projectiles.
>I think fighting games would be great without grapplers
>I think fighting games would be great without combos
>I think fighting games would be great without complicated inputs
So let's take Street Fighter. Remove everyone's special moves, remove jumping, remove blocking, remove corners, and remove knockdowns.
Is this the game you want /v/?
A game where you're two ryus and have to out footsie and poke people to death?
Why are you so fucking retarded.
>Mixups ruin the game
Stop playing fighting games. Just fucking stop. You have reached a level of scrub shitter usually reserved to 8-year-old bratty cousins. Just play a puzzle game or something.
I never said it wasnt assbackwards retarded.
I said I loved it.
In a game with one frame throws, throw techning is basically psychic guesswork anyway.
But yes, it'll be nice to finally get our hands on Revelator (filthy japs keeping it all to themselves)
Oh fair enough.
I didn't expect someone on /v/ to actually understand how you can love something really stupid.
just wake up reversal. This isn't the 90's. Every game now supports wake up DPs, and any that don't aren't popular enough to matter.
>But I'll never be good enough to play comp or something
you never were if knockdowns are what you are bitching out
FUCK I LOST A FUCKING LONG MESSAGE BY ACCIDENTALLY HITTING SOME CHROME SHORTCUT
So i'm just gonna tldr it:
Not only knockdowns ruin fighting games, but ALL slow, slightly uneven mixups ruin fighting games.
Fighting games should (or could) be about causing very advantageous mixups to yourself, and making it even possible to cause only slightly uneven guessing games should be kept at minimum.
(a jump-in in 3s is this too, the exact same shit as okizeme. A slow, forced (by another player) slightly uneven guessing game)
In fighting games you're playing against actual players and each option carries certain risks which they have to account for before preforming them. If you can deduce what they're going to do then you can punish them for it, that's why it's called a reads.
Ignoring all that and just simplifying it to "guessing" is dumb as shit.
/v/ - The Fighting Game
>OP is one of those posters that whine about how the FGG is afraid of change and the genre never innovates (which is completely untrue)
You people just have shit ideas about how the game "should" be and thats why you get shit on. Always talking about things they don't know about.
I'm all for freedom of speech, but /v/ really shouldn't be allowed to talk about fighting games.
What if I say
Skullgirls is not a great game but isn't a bad game either.
It suffers from a lot of problems but executes a lot of the mechanics it stole from other games quite well.
You fucks don't understand.
The point is that knockdown mixups are based on luck and guess not skill.
If you win or lose investing that zangief on his lame 50/50 then its not really fighting.
Its just flowchart fuckery.
In any case SFV is what proves me right since they went back to the old SF3 way.
Again with the "learn2counter" meme
It is impossible for a human being to make the good guess every time.
Overheads are generally really fucking slow and easy to see coming.
Throw/hit is the most basic mixup in any game ever and you can change your wakeup option to deal with it easily.
you can play a vortex/escape from a vortex based on your options, your opponents options, past moves and patters in the match, and safe getaways. Just stop being bad dude.
OP is stupid but you're even stupider. Getting knocked down in marvel is an easy 50/50, even worse you can get setup with a 25/75 or even tossed into a unpunishable blockstring before you even get up
I'm willing to bet every single anon here who says I'm bad would never beat me in FT5 and has probably never nor will ever compete in his entire life at any level.
Why do you guys won't play me on Steam? Let's see if I'm that bad?
Flowchart and Knockdown ruin fighting games, this is no joke, the fact that you guys say that you can defend against vortex and 50/50 already proves how shit your opinion is.
What you seem to be missing again is that all this is just guess.
You don't defend against a vortex, you guess right or wrong
>Knockdowns shouldn't exist in fighting games a knocked opponent should wake up instantly (without being able to get hit until completely standing)
If you are in a real fight and you get knocked down do you think you become invincible until you get back up. No because you shouldn't have gotten your ass knocked down to begin with. Scrubs like you are the worst i bet you think all specials moves should be one button too so doing combos isn't about doing "difficult" button combinations
>If you are in a real fight and you get knocked down do you think
I haven't read further, I hear this a lot around here.
You retards need to understand fighting games aren't about "real fighting"
This is no UFC or street fighting, it's just a battle of frames and RPS.
even still what logic in the game does it make to be invincible while standing up. Even if they aren't real fighting what reason would their be for characters to get invulnerable frames while getting up after being knocked down. To make the game your perceived idea of fair.
He misspelled it, but it stands for LowTierFraud. He who hates all character types, be they charge, shoto, or grappler. He who gets bodied then claims to not be trying. He who ragequits like a punk ass bitch. Fucker is an ass through and through and gets fucked even in games he's supposed to be good at.
>This is no UFC or street fighting, it's just a battle of frames and RPS.
One of the most prominent series of fighting games literally called street fighter. To say fighting games aren't about real fighting is like saying COD isn't about war. Clearly a video game cannot fully represent a fight between to people, or war so instead we have games like street fighter to simulate insane martial arts fights
Bought this for $120 USD inc. shipping.
Is it any good? I had a fairly shit Hori one before, will I notice a difference?
>To say fighting games aren't about real fighting is like saying COD isn't about war
But COD isn't about war.
War is just a setting, a place to develop a rail shooter.
I think your post is one of the most idiotic on this thread.
Let's go again.
We'll start with 3D games.
If you do tech your knockdown.
You have the choice between, tech grab, sidestep, guard low or guard high.
And you can only make one fucking choice, you need to choose correctly or else, you eat one hell of a juggle, meaning you lose the whole round based on a fucking knockdown.
Another thing is, if you fight against somebody who doesn't want to make a guess (either high kick or low kick) because he doesn't want to ruin his momentum for some reason, he will just back off to the other side of the stage.
Remember that in 3D fighters, you can't guard until 10 frames after moving.
There is no long range attack that will help you get in.
It will all be about guesses again.
There are much more to that.
But the point is, whoever wins or lose, it's not because one is good and the other is less than him.
It's just luck.
I didn't really like the Hori buttons, felt a bit mushy I guess? Then again, it was this cheap stick I was using before
>people talking about being knocked down in a real fight
Street fighter is only slightly similar to a real fight. Realism is no defense for any mechanic. In a real fight sitting on your ass and slapping feet together won't knock someone down, it's probably impossible to jump more than 6 feet in the air which is what's required for shit like crossups to even work, in a real fight throwing an uppercut won't hit someone sitting on their ass throwing a kick at your shin. I could go on, but really why would I? Also a fight in real life doesn't always end in you having a huge advantage when you knock someone down. That person could draw a knife and stab you to death, or shoot you with a gun, their friends could walk up and hit you in the back of the head while you're busy straddling the dude. Similarly they could get you into a triangle choke and you'd be fucked if you didn't have one of the previously mentioned weapons on you.
The only thing that bothers me about mixup in SFV is that there are tons of resources out now where you can see that mixup is still 50/50 and inescapable. It's just all off of air resets. Mika had so many that you can't do the whip > cr fierce in the corner and whip can't bounce off the edge of the screen when done at midscreen. Laura still has incredibly vicious mixups after juggles that you can do zero about but guess.
It drives me crazy how many people everywhere shit-talking IV but calling V "a real street fighter game" for "real fighting game players like myself" just ignore that shit. Mixup is a part of fighting games. It will not go away. If you were shit at IV and bitter get ready to be shit at V.
Oh shit I didn't even think about throw teching. It's pretty common refer to throw techs as breaks in 3D so that wasn't something I thought about.
Smash is the annoying one. I just want to say recovery but those fuckers couldn't come up with anything for ledge recovery. You'd think they could come up with something that wasn't also already a term that is prevalent online
Remember playing with the infamous tekken-king online and he started raging on the mic because I played without honour because I would rush him down knowing that he just rolls back 100% of the time.
Then he rage quit and blocked me when I selected a wall stage and carried him from the floor to the wall every round with Steve.