>Snake Konami being fuckers >Young Link Toon Link basically replaced him >Ice Climbers Already confirmed to have been hardware problems with the 3DS >Pichu Who gives a shit >PT Also likely because of the 3DS, same reason why ZSS/Samus and Zelda/Shiek were split
Wolf doesn't have any reason not to hve been back.
>>322672142 I think ultimately, with the limited time and resources they had with Smash's DLC period, Sakurai basically had a criteria for each DLC character, aside from Mewtwo, who they made as a reward for those who owned both versions of the game.
>A cut Melee veteran >A cut Brawl veteran >A popular third party newcomer >A Final Fantasy newcomer >A newcomer from an upcoming game >A character from the ballot
Roy was chosen for the Melee character slot and Lucas was chosen over Wolf for the Brawl character slot. Ryu got in as the popular general third party. Many people requested for there to be a FF character in Smash for awhile, and Cloud was the most popular choice. Corrin was chosen as the character from an upcoming game, and obviously Bayonetta came from the ballot.
>>322673336 Honestly, even if/when Smash 4 modding takes off, I highly doubt we'd be able to add clone slots. PM only managed to get away with that because Brawl had seven empty slots in its coding, while Smash 4 probably doesn't have any.
You do know the P:M devs planned to have her in, and her nearly finished design was leaked alongside Knuckles, Isaac, and Sami, right?
Well, a crew picked up their work where they left off and are finishing 4.0 as it was meant to release. Lyn and Knux are finished, aside from some slight polish here and there. Check the link I posted.
The only reason Roy got in as DLC is because he is easy to make. All of Roy's animations are taken from Marth's, or slightly altered with the hand positions. But those look awkward. I'm surprised there hasn't been a lot of criticism of how Roy moves. His standing animations are especially rugged and look incomplete.
Lucas took even less work, because he was literally copy paste from Brawl, just like every other veteran.
I'm still baffled by Roy. The game already comes with one Marth clone at no additional cost. Why spend 5 dollars for another? Fuck Roy, honestly. He's the only character I won't download.
>>322674551 The clone engine you're talking about, BrawlEx, involves gutting the majority of the rest of the game, in favor of just the basic multiplayer. Not much of a problem, but for the PMDT, they wanted to keep as much of the game intact as possible.
>>322675481 >Also, cutting the Miis is three more slots.
Not to say I wouldn't be in favor of getting rid of the Miis, but wouldn't that introduce nasty bugs into the Classic Modes? In all Classic runs except for a handful of 3DS games, you fight groups of Miis just before Master Hand.
>>322676548 They already added Mewtwo as a bonus for buying both Smash 3DS and Wii U at that point, so. Mewtwo's had a much bigger legacy than simply just being a character in Melee, so I wouldn't say they added him back just for Melee nostalgia, unlike Roy.
>>322674551 >Why? Because turning it into Melee is the easy way out, they're most likely just going to copy-paste Melee's physics back and call it a day, no ledge trump, just a single airdodge and shitting on some characters' recoveries just because that's how it was in Melee. You can argue the mechanics I mentioned are bad, but I would prefer to see people trying to fix them rather than flat out removing them.
>>322676687 No that would probably be Dark Pit. Roy is fun and they did a great job updating his design and differentiating him more from Marth, wheras DP is just Pit with some extremely minor changes.
>>322676687 Wrong. Jigglypuff has been the worst addition to Smash since day 1. She's completely worthless and irrelevant to her own franchise. At least Roy and Corrin are the main characters of their games.
>>322674145 >The only reason Roy got in as DLC is because he is easy to make. All of Roy's animations are taken from Marth's, or slightly altered with the hand positions. But those look awkward. I'm surprised there hasn't been a lot of criticism of how Roy moves. His standing animations are especially rugged and look incomplete. Nigga you've clearly never even seen him in action.
>Fuck Roy, honestly. He's the only character I won't download. ayup.
>>322676961 Probably because Melee is put on an untouchable pedestal and Smash 5 could be made my god himself and Meleefags still wouldn't give it a chance, but Brawl gets shit on at every opportunity.
>>322677116 Roy has a completely different playstyle from Marth. Marth is more about spacing with the tipper. Roy's more about getting in your opponent's face due to his sweetspot being located at the hilt of his sword. They don't play alike at all.
>>322677692 >Only by rabid tourneyfags, and I really doubt they were a factor in Sakurai's or Nintendo's collective thought processes. They're the vocal minority, both among the Japanese and Western playerbases.
>Le Roy is a Marth clone because his moves look similar meme
This is a horrible meme, Marth is a spacer and relies on punishes and proper footwork. Roy is a hyper agreesive who relies on heavy pressure and rush down to overwhelming the opponent
The only reason I can give for Wolf to be cut was he was a copy and paste job in Brawl and would have to be reworked from the ground up (look at his moves, majority of them are copiedfrom other fighters due to Wolfs late addition in Brawl)
Its much easier to take Roy and update him than remake Wolf
Brawl Minus exists after all, as do many other mods.
Reason PM became so popular is because one, Melee has arguably the best physics in the series, and two, Brawl fucking sucked.
Smash 4 is actually quite good. Though it does need some fixes:
>Melee's air dodge (we can agree it's the best one, though a hybrid is also fine, just as long as you only get one). >Longer recharge on shields >Bring back momentum >Rebalance sone of the characters (Samus mainly, nerf Sheik too) >the additions of Turbo Mode, All-Star Smash, and 64 Mode would also be nice. >perhaps bring back Brawl's boss rush mode >bring back Melee's target test
That aside, it's fine. Smash 4 is a good game.
The rest would be to bring back the vets (Squirtle, Ivysaur, Wolf, Snake, the IC), bring back the PM originals (Knux, Lyn, Isaac, and Sami), add better custom moves to all the characters, declone the clones (especially Ganondorf - Bronze Greek God has an awesome mod - add in Black Shadow as the "heavy Falcon, " Lucina, Dark Pit, and Doc need drastic changes too though), add in Bagan's Ridley (?), and just purely cosmetic from there on. More costumes for Cloud, Ryu, and many others. More stages. Etc...
You'd pretty much have the ideal Smash Bros. Game then.
>>322678575 >The only reason I can give for Wolf to be cut was he was a copy and paste job in Brawl and would have to be reworked from the ground up (look at his moves, majority of them are copiedfrom other fighters due to Wolfs late addition in Brawl) Lucas.
>>322678815 Same reason why stage hazards are disabled in 8-Player Smash but there's no reason to get rid of them completely in traditional Smash matches without morphing the stages into Final Destination clones.
>>322678815 PM has it, it's called All-Star Smash. They got the idea drom MvC. They also have Turbo Mode which is insane, and Retro Mode which makes the game play like Smash 64 with all the new characters, it also changes all the cosmetics to make it look like Smash 64.
Wolf copy and pasted various character moves for his own
Pichu is shit
Toon Link is a better representative for Young Link, if we have to bring him back, we'll let it be Majora's Mask based, but its not game specifics, as far Zelda representation goes Adult Link counts for both, Toon Link is an entity on his own
Gamefreak is very specific with their representatives, Pokemon Trainer was never coming back, Charizard got lucky cause he's arguably the most popular pokemon in existance that anyone can easily get, even more than Pikachu
>>322678963 I'm not sure. If Project M was at the forefront of their minds, they would have added Wolf back as well, especially after that one PMDT Tweet that basically went "Look! We've got Wolf! Tr4sh doesn't!"
>>322678658 Lucas has his own moveset not a patchwork of other fighters plus he was a highly requested character and Mother only had one rep after he was cut. Lucas was intended to replace Ness in Melee but Earthbound 64 was cancelled. Lucas has meant to be in Smash for a while now. >>322678730 They can look similar all they want but the dont play alike so what is the issue?
The lack of hitstun isn't really the issue here. Smash 4's hitstun modifier is the same as Brawl...which was the same as Melee.
It's just that the latter games introduced mechanics and balance changes that made combos harder to perform than in Melee. Stuff like more knockback from attacks, attacks themselves having more recovery frames, etc.
Brawl in particular made it so you could airdodge right out of both hitstun AND tumble, and ergo that game had little to no combos to speak of. Smash 4 did away with the latter but kept the former, which is a big reason why combos are more possible to perform in Smash 4 but still not as much as in Melee.
>>322680219 The animations are also slower, and the movement is slower, which makes it harder to follow up combos in Smash 4.
I love Brawl Minus' highly rewarding offensive game to balance out the very powerful defensive mechanics. Simply upping the hitstun, hitlag, and shieldstun will DRASTICALLY make the game way more interesting in competitive play.
>>322680263 Falcon and Samus share a up tilt. Not a single move of Mario and Falcon are similar. No not even his up air they function differently
Get mad about that video all you want its true. Wolf made it in very late and so had to borrowmoves from different fighters in order to meet deadlines and unlike Sonic, Sakurai couldn'tjust cover Wolf up with spinning animations.
Wolf definitely uses Fox's skeleton, but again, you're basing it on the video that said "he borrowed Marth's down smash!" when in fact even Link has that. The only "borrowed" move he has is his upsmash and it sure as hell matches more on him than on Sonic.
>>322680720 Smash 4 has more shieldstun than Melee, moves just have more hitlag and less auto cancels more shieldstun would make it like 64.
The hitlag and hitstun is fine in Smash 4, if momentum was still present and characters moved a bit faster the problems would be fixed. No need for wavedash, it was never intended to be used how it was in Melee and Sakurai would had taken it out if he didnt mistakenly believe it would be harmless
>>322681182 Who are you comparing? Falcon shares no bair with Mario or Samus, nor a dtilt, nor a ftilt. Nor a jab, falcon auto combos with his, mario doea standard knockback and Samus' is shit and isnt safe.
I havent used Wolf in a while and off the top of my head he shares more than a up smash, like Diddy's not Marth's dair
I was thinking of 64 for the bair but Dtilt and Ftilt are definitely Samus (those legs). As for the jab I am talking about the starter two punches. It's essentially a faster Samus that proceeds into a multipunch.
>>322681952 64 is a unique experience that should be its own thing. They play so many stocks because you die so fast due to the insane amounts of hitlag allowing too many combos and shieldstun making them break way to easily
>>322682491 Most characters have that generic kick as a ftilt however. Diddy (and mii fighter another patch work fighter) is the only one who brings his hands together and smashes them directly dowward in that fashion no one else. Samus' 'one two' is useless as it isnt safe and can be shielded after the first strike, Falcon locks you into a autocombo how is that similar?
>>322677407 >implying Marth can space with that butterknife of his Marth is straight up awful in Sm4sh. He's meant to space out characters with no fucking range. Meanwhile Roy is 90% sweet spots and easy kills.
I mean, what you posted is MEANT to be the case but in practice it really isn't
>>322683286 as a marth main in melee and brawl, i was already pretty salty about marth's sm4sh iteration being gutted, but the sodium content got exponentially greater when roy returned super beefed up
>>322676354 It wasn't Nintendo. It was Namco. They said he'd make up for it with his moveset. Blame Namco.
>"I personally felt that having too many Fire Emblem characters was a problem, but after talking it over with the development staff and discussing logistics, I felt certain that I could make them a fun character".
>>322680104 >They can look similar all they want but the dont play alike so what is the issue? Smash is about the characters. Gameplay hasn't been the focus since Melee. And when the characters look similar or play similarly or are from franchises that most people don't care about it's hard to get excited. Who gives a shit about Corrin with his gimmicks and mechanics when most people don't care about Fire Emblem, let alone a FE game that isn't even out? If mechanics and shit are so exciting in new characters why does Sm4sh get a pass for having such slow gameplay?
Hell, Corrin was added for promotional purposes. Except FE Fates is gonna get a bunch of advertizing like Awakening did and will have word of mouth. Why not fucking promote a game that could use it if you're gonna add some character no-one knows?
Everything about his inclusion stinks if you're not part of the minority who cares about FE and enjoys playing characters whose game aren't even out yet.
>>322672142 >Young link Already have toon link >Pokemon Plz god no >snake Konami being shitters i guess >ice climbers Sakurai probably just doesn't wanna work on them >wolf Under developed character that has 1-2 sentences of dialogue in most games he's in. One of which is always "i can't let you do that star fox". Shouldn't have even been in brawl.
Ice climbers or snake would have been the best veterans they could have brought back instead of Roy, but I'll remind you that Roy was put in Melee to promote his up coming game.
>>322683962 You do realize that FE is huge in Japan, that this is a Japanese game and naturally will pander to Japan often with FE characters of a game that is out in Japan. It serves a duel purpose of marketing the game in the West yes.
>I dont like the gameplay so therefore the gameplay isnt important
Smash 4 does not get a pass for its gameplay and is criticised often are you new?
>>322684735 I'm not saying i agree with that but neither should have more then 4 All pokemon needs is Pikachu, Charizard, Mewtwo and greninja or jiggly Fire emblem should have Ike, Marth, corrin and robin. Sakurai needs to stop being biased or step down
>>322684992 >You do realize that FE is huge in Japan It really isn't. FE12 not getting localized literally nearly killed the franchise, and this was in spite of the fact they remade Marth's games (the safest possible option in existence, mind you) to make up for the poor sales of the Radiant games. Awakening is the first game to make any sizable impact saleswise.
>>322685456 >Donkey Kong >not huge DK has multiple million selling games. Even the fucking port of DKCR got over a million sales, it did nearly as well as Awakening. A fucking Wii port of DK matched the swansong of the entire FE series.
>>322672142 Snake only got in because of Kojima Young Link was replaced by Toon Link Ice Climbers were cut for technical limitations Pichu was an unpopular joke clone character who brought nothing to the table. And Gamefreak is a pain in the ass to work with. Red, Ivysaur and Squirtle were cut because transformations were cut, Sakurai decided that they didn't warrent individual spots, and Gamefreak probably doesn't want to advertise them. Wolf because he's less popular than Roy.
>>322686470 >having a waifu >2016 + 4 days The star fox team had tons of dialogue in 64 if you actually played it. Krystal did more than wolf did in assault even if all she did was whine bitch and complain
>>322686069 Plus they were lazier clones than most others.
Even Dr. Mario had effort put into him. Nobody cares about those characters because they are pretty much the worst versions of Marth/Pit.
They are alts made into fighters because they didn't have enough time to finish ICs and just added in 3 characters for the sake of padding up the roster. Ain't like Dark Shit and Lucina ruin the roster when there are still unique characters in the game like Megaman, Shulk and Duck Hunt
>>322686867 If you take away wolf and his team not much changes. Falco would have swooped down in cornaria and you would have done the dumb I'm a plasma cannon thing with him. Star fox 64 had a lot more than cheesy one liners. Unless you are talking about everyone who isn't fox, falco or peppy.
>>322688163 >change is minuscule at best The other times star wolf shows up the do nothing but fly around. If you are going to unironically call me a shitposter then at least bring something to the table beside say no you're wrong.
>>322688598 Jigglypuff is literally only in the game because she is a 64 vet and she only got in that because Sakurai needed more characters and semi-cloning Kirby was easy with her. Had she been cut in Melee she'd been removed by now. Pichu happened because again Sakurai needed more characters was very short on time so cloning Pikachu into his brand new pre-evo worked plus it marketed Gold Silver and Crystal more.
>>322689132 The only one that really isn't a waste of time is Togepi as it isn't the pre-evo of an earlier Pokemon and you can just view it as the first in a standard 3-pokemon line with its evos. Also you don't really find wild Togetics/kisses.
>>322689289 I want him and Ivysaur back. They were my niggas.
>>322689469 As unique as Robin is, insofar as Fire Emblem reps in Smash are unique, s/he'll be the first to go in a theoretical 5mash because of the whole "Flavor of the Month" thing. Robin won't have a fanbase that puts him/her on a pedestal just because s/he happened to be in the right Smash game at the right time, as with Roy.
Lucas only got back in because he would have been really quick & easy to make, hell a few of his moves were already in the game as customs
Wolf would have required a bit more work, despite being more unique + upcoming Star Fox game + actually been released in the West + Smash 4 needs villains so badly, but fuck that it's extra work so Lucas it is
Roy needs no explanation, at this point it's obvious Sakurai heavily favours Fire Emblem
>>322690391 >I remember Sm4sh roster speculation and you got faggots thinking Lucario won't come back because he's "flavor of the month" These people are retarded since Lucario, by that time, had been incredibly popular for years and still is, ever since the release of D/P.
he was just unfortunately timed. had roy and lucina been excluded and he wasnt one of the last reveals he wouldve been better received and people would see him as more than "another fe anime sword man"
>>322672142 To be a proxy for Chrom. If you look at Chrom's animations in Awakening and compare them to Roy's revamped attacks, they're very similar.
Given Sakurai's comments, it's likely that he put some effort or at least thought into a moveset for Chrom before deciding on Robin instead. Then, given that he seemed to think that the roster was essentially the final product, he just decided "Well, I couldn't just put another generic anime sword user in the game and have people pay for that, but I kind of want to use these ideas rather than let them go to waste, so basically people can take it if they want or leave it if they don't."
>Ice Climbers 3DS can't handle them, 3DS ruined Smash 4 for everyone in general
>Pichu A pokemon, Pikachu clone
>Squirtle, Ivy More Pokemon, we already have enough
>Young Link Toon Link part 2, Link clones
>Wolf Only potential one that could have realistically made it in without being a full clone, but we know he was just gonna be the same Brawl Wolf again with very minor changes and the stupid standard down throw up air combo that the entire fucking cast has because this game is shit.
>>322691476 >if they arent a one time thing Considering the success of the game and its continued support through additional content, it's probably safe to say they'll be around for at least a little while longer.
>screencap this. Screencap it yourself fag, I don't know why people always say this.
>>322672142 Roy and Lucas were basically the most requested returning characters (from what I've seen on /v/ at least).
Toon Link replaces Young Link nicely. Kojima didn't beg for Snake to be in anymore because he was too busy fucking Joost. Pokemon Trainer was simplified to Charizard. Wolf was a bit redundant and wasn't popular. Ice Climbers are too complicated for Samurai.
>>322692093 >Cause i'm gonna leave the thread and i promised myself i wouldn't get involved in these circlejerks anymore You'll be back anyway, but I'm not sure how that makes you incapable of screencapping your own post.
>>322672142 -Snake had no chance of coming back, different times, different Konami -Pokemon trainer was a character gimmick -Wolf was fanservice but I think he coulda at least been an assist trophy if not playable -Ice climbers are gay as fuck and no one wants them except buttdistraught infinite fags. Glad they're dead, they ruined Brawl even further than its gay limited gameplay did. -Pichu was a novelty addition to melee, never coming back -Young link was fully replaced by toon link and even if he did come back he'd feel awful due to Smash 4's mechanics and engine. It would be a shallow mockery of what you remember. -Ivy and squirtle arent coming back, they're replaced by greninja and mewtwo's return. There wouldn't be need for more pokemon than they have now. Yes furfags I realize how many fire fagblem chars there are. Yes it's bullshit but you gotta accept thats how it is.
Please, dont be ridleyfags, accept it and move on.
>>322692498 Handheld smash is awful in the first place unless you bought their gimmick addition 2nd stick, even then it doesnt use it does it? If it does that's good I guess but fucking still man...
Whatever they do though, I hope they drop the gimmicks and super weak hardware/badscreens and just make another god fucking damn gameboy. DS was gimmick casualization central, 3DS fell dead in the water without great titles. GBA was the last truly great Nintendo handheld
>>322693774 Gameboy brand butthead. Gameboy is a brand, I'm not asking them to bring back the old handheld, are you retarded? I'm asking them to abandon dualscreen/touchscreen gimmick faggotry and focus on having decent handheld quality hardware again so the games on it feel good again. I can tell I'm playing a gimmick when I hold the DS/3DS.
>>322672142 Ice Climbers didn't return because of hardware limitations ont he 3DS. Also, because Nintendo executives not prioritize 3DS Smash FAR ABOVE the Wii U Smash, for many reasons. For those that do not know:
1. Iwata wanted Smash to be 3DS exclusive. It was Sakurai's idea to make two smash games instead of just one.
2. During a Q&A, the sales of the 3DS Smash have told the shareholders that "Smash has been confirmed to have people willing to buy it on the 3DS. We will keep in mind this valuable information for the future of Smash."
>Everyone complains on how bad Sakurai is for the Smash series. >Meanwhile, shareholders demand Smash be on 3DS ONLY in the future to maximize profits with its install base. >Meanwhile, it was the development staff for Smash 4 that recommended adding Corrin, and even when Sakurai was like "isn't that too much fire emblem?", his fucking staff responded with "Its ok, he will be unique!"
Lesson learned, if Sakurai isn't head of the next Smash, its going to be 3DS exclusive, with absolute pandering towards the newer game releases even more when it comes to roster.
>>322672142 >Snake Konami hates video games now >Young Link We already have Toon Link >Ice Climbers As Sakurai stated, they'd drop the 3DS framerate below the 60 he wanted it to always be at >Pichu Pichu was fucking horrible >PT We have enough Pokemon on the roster as is, and Sakurai didnt want any transformations in 4 >Wolf We don't need more furries. Plus, Lucas had more demand than him.
>>322694286 All that and possible more. The game would probably had a better classic mode for one and better single player content. The gameplay would probably be better as well seeing now that he has more time he is making the game more offensive.
I Imagine Nintendo made that call so people wouldnt assume one version was better than the other and buy them both. People often forget Nintendo does call some shots in their games it snt all Sakurais fault
>>322672142 >Snake Konami >Young Link replaced >Pichu nobody cares >Ice Climbers Impossible >Pokemon Trainer Impossible and already shitty in Brawl >Squirtle not big enough >Ivysaur not big enough >Wolf boring moveset
Second of all, Ice Climbers, even with their chain grabbing, have never been considered OP or top tier. Maybe high tier, but the chain grabbing wasn't enough to make them unfair since the entire character is pretty much gimped when Nana bites the dust.
>>322696354 >Not big enough that's retarded. It's not that they were "not big enough." I'd bet my life more people know Squirtle and Ivysaur than Roy and Lucas. It's really a cost benefit analysis. Squirtle and Ivysaur had original movesets and would need a new down B. Roy and Lucas are clones and are super easy to make. The answer is obvious: clones are more likely to make it to new Smash Bros so long as they are either not replaced or nobody cares about them.
>>322678052 The Light Sword compared to the Rapier automatically makes Leaf far better than Roy and the fact that all the caps are 20, making Leaf hitting caps in certain stats and being useful, even without scrolls, a realistic goal. Also don't forget about the movement growth in FE5.
>>322697351 >>322697672 It had majors and plenty of regionals. Xanadu recently picked it back up. The overall Smash community recognize that Brawl isnt very good but its not hated on like it is only o /v/ and a few stream monsters on smashboards
IC is 2 in Brawl right now. And is still top ten in Melee was higher but lack of results and the difficulty of them dropped them to B Tier
>>322697981 Not to mention you get to use promoted Leaf for twice as many chapters compared to promoted Roy. Leaf gets a good 8-9 chapters promoted, while Roy gets 4, two of which being the easiest fucking chapters in the game. Sword of Seals is a good weapon, but compared to the Light Sword with only 20 fucking uses and again, used in 2 of the easiest chapters in the game, Roy has dick all. He is essentially a shitty weight you have to guide to the throw through the midgame chapters
>>322698639 Brawl might not be the greatest game for comp play but its has plenty of near character tech so i can appreciate it being played sans meta knight. I dont understand why /v/ memes about it like its universally hated
>>322699935 Go make a Brawl thread it well before Smash 4 gets flooded with Tripping, muh wavedash, muh melee tech, on so on. The smash threads prior to 4 was nothing but meleefags shitting on Brawl non stop like they do with 4 now
>>322683286 >This is what shitters actually believe He has worse approach options than marth (btheir biggest flaw), with trash aerials and has to approach far more, due to his kill power coming from close range. Spamming f-smash may work against friends, but it's not a reliable kill option anywhere else
>>322705608 >Roy can space much better than Marth no he can't. His aerials are trash, with the exception of nair. Try tipper f-airing someone and you'll get punished. His f-tilt and jab have worse range and again, you get punished for spacing. Against Marth, Roys will struggle, simply because marth's disjoints are bigger, and he barely any kill setups compared to marth http://smashboards.com/threads/marth-lucina-roy-match-up-thread.427319/#post-20690447
The only significant advantages Roy have are being quicker, having a stronger counter and having a faster falling speed. Against slower defensive characters, he'll definitely shine compared to marth (Ganondorf gets murdered by Roy), but will fail horrendously at the spacing game, simply because of how he gets punished for tippers. Roy is supposed to play as a semi-rushdown character. But bad approaches make his offence severely limited.
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