So, do we all agree that the fags who think Smash 4 is the best in the series just haven't played Melee or are too casual?
who the fuck cares if they think it's the best in the series you codependent faggot ass motherfucking son of transvestite insecure piece of shit like your fucking self esteem is tied to whether or not someone thinks some game you don't like is better than a game you do like, you're the definition of a turdlicking douchebag loser holy fucking christ get over it
Melee is the most technical game I've ever played. Brawl is the least fun. Project M is my favorite and I'm pretty okay at it. I think Smash 4 is probably the 'best' in the series even though I don't like it much, because it does a pretty fine job walking the line between technical and accessible.
I actually want to play a game that's actually visually impressive and you win based on how skilled you are, and not how much time you wasted memorizing what series of buttons to press and getting used to the shitty, broken engine
>mfw Sakurai knew about wavedashing during the development of melee
>mfw L-canceling came from an official game mechanic in smashbros on the 64.
>mfw even without all the tech, it's still has the best gameplay due to fast run speeds and momentum is carried over in jumps
>mfw you blame your lack of skill on glitches
too old with a career and bills to deal spending so many hours on a single game. Im lucky to spend one day a week with my friends playing video games much less Smash Bros. in a few years some will have kids and disappear from the gathering. fuck man...
besides, melee ain't got no Little Mac.
I really don't care about Melee that much when I play it, considering that I'll probably never reach that level of gud and I've got nobody to play against, anyways. So personally, I enjoy Smash 4 more. It's enough depth and speed for a casual like me, and it offers a lot of content.
Brawl is still a piece of shit, though. And I admit Melee is the better-designed game in terms of gameplay. Also, I've yet to try Project M, but since then I've lost my Brawl disc. Personally, it seems like the best possible version of Smash to me.
>"CHECK OUT REDDIT.COM" literally the first thing you hear
kill yourself smashfag
i really want to like 4 but damn its too much like brawl. Defense is still too strong and rush down pressure is easily punished. project m is a godsend for brawl and hopefully one day 4 will get its version.
Granted, momentum is something that would be nice to have in the later games, but tell me something: what does L-cancelling add? Is it a situational technique? No, it's something you should be doing at all times. So why didn't they just cut the landing lag for aerials?
And wavedashing. Just what does it add? You slide a little on the ground. Is that result worth the amount of time people have to put in to master it on different stages, with it being harder to do with some characters than others? Fuck no.
People might say those techs "raise the skill ceiling", but they really just raise the skill floor, by adding unintuitive and obtuse processes that players are forced to learn to be considered skilled at even the most basic level
That anon was just pointing out how l-canceling was an official tech. Nothing about whether it belongs in the game or not.
Personally, I like what they did with landing lag in Smash 4. Certain moves auto-cancel, some have a little lag, some have a lot. It's a good compromise.
Momentum needs to fucking happen though. I can't imagine it'd be hard to patch in either.
I just want a decent Smash thread, why do you always have to cause shitstorms between fans of different games?
Melee has the better gameplay overall but Smash 4 WiiU is the best experience casual-wise, which is what Smash was made for
I understand why casuals like the new Smash games but I don't understand all these faggots obsessed with Smash 4 tourneys and For Glory. If you're going to take a Smash game seriously why not just play Melee or Project M, there's no reason not to unless you're really obsessed with one of the newcomers for some reason
I'll agree with you about L-Canceling, but you did not do wavedashing any justice. It's a slide that you can do anything during, improves the movement of the characters, helps out the slower characters, gives the player more movement options, and adds more depth to the game because of the previously mentioned things. Also, it's really not that hard to learn. Once you get it down for a character and know when to do it, you can do it without any extra thought. it just becomes anther move.
Yes, the technical requirement to play this game competitively is very high. Wavedashing adds freedom of movement. Wait until you learn how hard perfect wavedashing is.
And just remember. No matter how hard the technical aspect of this game gets, the mental game is so much harder.
What I'm saying is why do we have to make the technical aspect so overcomplicated and difficult to master, when the real skill and actually entertaining to watch stuff come from the mind games and mental acuity? The mechanics of the game should be as simple as possible so there isn't any unnecessarily high barrier of entry for tournament play.
I really do like non-Melee smash games. They're more fun to play and the competitive scene is usually more interesting to watch, although to be fair at the highest tiers of play you still get the same sort of problems.
My problem with Melee and Project M is that the same kinds of strategies are what's being used by all players and all characters. Wavedashing, safe moves, edge-hogging, characters are considered good because of how fast they can respond after severe attacks and how responsive they are to specific tactics. It's dull. It also fosters bad habits in the "semi-pro" tier of player, who knows about these high value playstyles but hasn't mastered them yet, hence why so many tourneys were dominated by Fox v Fox Final Destination.
Smash 4 is fun on a more competitive level because they nerfed the fuck out of everything, meaning that the abilities that were super-powerful are now just as good as the shit that everyone else had to deal with. Edge-hogging is gone, Wavedashing is gone, cancelling is gone, and on one hand that does slow play down considerably, but on the other hand it makes the game play more as intended and as advertised. It allows for more strategies to exist because the Top Tier strategies simply aren't there anymore, forcing people to either find the new Top Tier (Which, as those players are clinging to Melee, has been very slow in going) or to adopt a more versatile strategy.
When shit like Rosalina and Duck Hunt Dog is being called the more powerful characters in the game, you know that it's a radical shift in tone to how the game used to be played - Zoning and harassment characters used to be easily shut down by fast-paced melee brawlers, but the ability to shut down 90% of Smash Bros.' strategies has been severely nerfed.
That, to me, is far more fascinating and fun to play against and watch. And it's not like old strategies aren't still available, they simply are not as ever-present and effective in EVERY situation now.
>helps out the slower characters
Ehh, really though? Ganondorf is the only sluggish character who has a somewhat useable wavedash.
Helps Luigi though, he sure as hell would be a lot less viable if he didn't have that insane wavedash
So to those of you who think smash is just a party game, what do you think when you see the video in the op? What makes this seem so simple to you that it can't compare to a traditional fighting game?
In melee, if your fast enough, you can L-cancel your aerial and as soon as the lag ends grab your opponent. That all depends on the aerial, grab length of your opponent, and you and your opponents movement during the shield stun/hitlag.
No he just doesn't want his hand held through playing a fighting game.
>Fast complex techniques that allow you any combo you want, and freedom of movement are dull
>Smash 4 is better because its simple and easier to pick up
Well I'll agree that it's easier to pick up, but that doesn't make it better than Melee.
If you think simplifying the elements of the game will make for more interesting gameplay, we can wait and see how the competitive scene progresses. Because you can bet the tourneyfags are going to do whatever works best to win, and I wonder how entertaining that will be to watch.
Boy is this thread a shitshow
I don't think you know what competitive melee is about, or attended a tournament.
>>272617557 Ganondorf and Falco benefit a lot from wave dashing. I can't think of any other slow characters worth using.
>They're more fun to play and the competitive scene is usually more interesting to watch
How? From a spectator's standpoint I'd have way more fun watching insanse cuhrazy combos against a Falcon and Fox rather than "zoning" for 6 minutes between Palutena and Villager
Don't get me wrong, I like Smash 4, I like watching it. I just wonder how the mental game is going to progress over the next couple years. This shit is literally not even out yet on the Wii U, how anyone can argue that Smash 4's competitive play is already better than Melee's is beyond me.
>Why don't people prefer muh 13 year old game!?
>posts the most broken move in the game
Because Melee is too fast, based around touch of death combos and skating around like a retard, and almost as unbalanced as Brawl. Smash 4 is the most balanced in the series and more fun to play in every way.
I know it's hard because you aren't use to thinking very fast but this is happening every single microsecond in high level Melee, even during combos. The technical barrier isn't any more prohibitive than in "real" fighting games. You sound like you would enjoy Hearthstone.
I'm going to be let down when the average Smash 4 match isn't as good as this one.
PAL dair was way more balanced, it only spiked in the beginning.
I also dont get why they had spikes and meteors when most meteors were harder to land than spikes, but you can't meteor-cancel spikes
>complaining about a game being "too faced" and thinking all combos lead to death
I recently replayed Melee, and other than figuring out how ridiculously shit I'd gotten after not touching the game in forever, I also got to remember just how fast it really was.
Almost 2fast4me, but that's just lack of practice, honestly.
I'm really excited for Smash4. I still have Melee, but I don't think I'm going to get back into it. I'd rather learn the new meta that 4 is gonna have rather than mish mash the game styles. It was painful enough playing Brawl right after replaying Melee. My biggest joy about Smash4 is that even if it's not as fast as Melee, it's way faster than Brawl is.
Tiers are definitely real. Falcon has to work sooo much harder than Fox does in that match up.
Melee at a high level looks like Marvel 2, but with less control. it's wonky as fuck. Smash 4 at high level looks like Super Smash Bros at a high level. That's what Smash Bros should be.
for being... better?
Yeah I haven't been on nearly as much this past year. I'm used to seeing this kind of treatment, but there's a point where being elitist because you play it a certain "way" as opposed to being skilled with what the game has given you to work with that I'd expect them to at least have SOME introspection.
Smash 4 is the most accessible and the easiest to play at a higher level. Players can easily understand why they are getting beaten and do not have to learn a ton of complicated tricks to not be destroyed. This is great for 90% of smash players. Do tourneyfags really need another Melee when they already have 2 of them? It's a different game that offers a different experience.
Dumbass Falcon could have edgeguarded with any number of other moves and taken the stock. It's his fault for not finishing his food, but this does showcase how much easier Fox has it.
I know, but damn it's just really sad to see such obvious shortcomings. Falcon just can't do what the space animals and Pikachu can without a lot more work. I know badmouthing Smash 4 is the "cool" thing to do around here, but it really is the most balanced game in the series. No character just outright feels like they don't stand a chance, and none of them feel overwhelmingly good. Even Olimar and Yoshi can have a good fight, even if Yoshi's at the top and Olimar is at the bottom.
It's at the peak of mainstream right now, but I welcome the day it becomes a full blown loser hobby again.
I hope normalfags move on to board games or PnP. It'll give /tg/ something to do.
Meh. Those who like 4 or Brawl more than Melee just like it because for them, they will never reach that level, so the games are practically similar - but with a lot more content.
I'm included in that part. I'm not gonna study Melee for a thousand hours just so I can beat CPUs harder. So I like 4 more because it has twice as many characters and fluff.
That said, I'd never even consider wasting my time watching a Smash4 tournament, but I enjoy watching competitive Melee a lot.
tl;dr objectively if you can reach that level, Melee >all
for the rest of us, newer = better
You know, I can totally feel that. Thing is, as nice as the new one is to look at now, it's very early to say that everyone is so viable. I think that, like Melee and Brawl, a standard will develop in tournaments. Things change a lot, I mean remember early tiers for Brawl? I remember Toon Link being bar-none TOP TIER for a little while.
In defense of what you said, at least with this iteration, Nintendo is FINALLY willing to patch the game. So we'll see changes to fine-tune it probably in a way you described.
Not who you replied to, but first thought I had was short-hop fast fall to the right of him during his up-b and land a clean b-air maybe?
Maybe a followup dair while fox was charging? He can dair through that, right?
>check your quick reflex privilege
Why do you even game?
>Hearthstone is shit and so is you're waifu
>you are waifu
Wavedashing is precise, but why shouldn't precision be an outcome determining factor in a game? I agree that L-canceling is a bad mechanic and should be replaced by autocanceling.
He could have not fallen off the edge and let his opponent recover. Or just bair. Also he could have not jumped in with a knee after getting back thrown of the stage, way too risky, not enough potential reward.
He might have even been able to just grab the ledge after the second dair. At the worst it would put him into a situation where the Fox either DI's onto the stage and has to eat a knee, or can risk going for the ledge with the Falcon already on it.
I'm liking the fact that so far, they don't seem to be too drastic with the changes. Ike got a huge blanket of buffs and there's no more vectoring, but most characters seem to have gotten relatively few nerfs or buffs.
I thinkt he thing with Melee is that you need to become really good at it to see how good/enjoyable it is and to enjoy the competition, like with more traditional fighting games.
With Smash 4, it's not as free, but it's simpler and less punishing in terms of going out and doing something crazy, so it's just allows for more variety in terms of characters and attack strings.
Melee and PM are fun to watch for their speed and gracefulness in its techniques, especially if you know what's actually going on to appreciate it. Smash 4 is enjoyable to watch for the flashy moves that would be considered "styling" in the other games, but are just a regular element of that game, and for a more fresh character variety (which Project M can also provide)..
That's at least how I see it when watching those games.
Uhh no? Are you serious? Wavedashing is easy once you get the hang of it and is almost necessary to learn for Samus if you want to bring your game up. L-cancelling has been around since 64 as well which also greatly sped up the game at higher level play.
You realize that there are tricks in almost every competitive game that speeds things up that were not necessarily intentional. Counter Strike has it as well for reloading the AWP as well as Halo with its shotgun/instant melee thing or whatever. I even knew shit in AVP2 that would give me an edge.
Sounds high risk, but it might have worked out. If he missed down there he would be fucked, though.
But a lot of aerials have no landing lag.
Zoning is part of fighting games. Get the fuck over it.
At one point, taking the ledge at the right time may have worked. An on stage downward angled f-tilt, b-air after the first meteor cancel, or even any aerial besides d-air could have worked.
>Wavedashing is easy
As someone who can do it just fine, no, it really isn't. it's second nature to me now, but it is an incredibly complex and precise input that shouldn't be part of Smash Bros, but is necessary for high-level Melee play for almost all of the viable characters.
Well look how far doing what you thought was his only option got him, bro
It's not like touch of deathing in Melee is easy. It's feasible but difficult as fuck.
Take ledge, force Fox to recover onstage and reverse knee from the ledge with the invincibility frames; or wait for Fox to land and reverse knee the landing lag. He fucked up by committing offstage and forcing himself to recover.
When recovering he doublejumped to the ledge with a knee to cover that space with a hitbox but got outspaced by shine. Even if he didn't get shined, he'd be recovering under the stage and likely dead anyway so that knee ends up being high risk with variable reward. Falcon doublejumping back and up-b'ing high would've given him a recovery mixup coming down and at worst he'd have eaten some percentage instead of losing the stock.
Getting outplayed doesn't mean you get to cry about tiers.
Melee is too janky and spasmy at high level play with all the awkward lag-cancelling techniques you have to practice to get to that level. Plus only the fast, hyperactive characters are any good.
But outside of that its physics is still mostly better than Smash 4 because 4 favours defense too strongly and virtually every form of approach is more risky/less rewarding than just hanging back and camping.
>LOOK AT THIS AMAZING GAMEPLAY! AREN'T TOURNEYFAGS GREAT?
>that same tourneyfag cried to a referee because of a pause
it's like melee fanboys don't realize the reason we shit on the game is because of the terrible fanbase
Casuals got no imagination. The only limit you're going to find in melee is your own skill level.
Those aerials only have no landing lag within the autocancel window. The landing lag otherwise is like 22 frames or more on average.
This is not just significantly longer than an L canceled aerial from melee, it's longer than a non-L canceled aerial.
The landing lag is too high, especially relative to the low low amount of shield stun.
I always thought it'd be easier with them. I'm not sure why, wavedashing with Roy in Melee feels a bit weird because sometimes I do the input early and it won't register, but I have a bit of an easier time in PM.
Pausing is a penalty that costs you a stock because:
1. It kills momentum/adrenaline, which is kind of shitty when you're in the middle of a match.
2. Actual faggots would abuse pausing to kill momentum or when something bad's happening to them.
Actual faggots I'm referring to are like the ones in this video:
There's a reason why Smash 4 doesn't have pausing in online and why there's a setting to disable pausing. And also why Dota 2 gets a lot of shit for having a pause function that happens in a competitive game.
Yes anon, they need to play a REAL fighting game.
Melee has good physics compared to Smash 4, but it is too technical at a high level. The advanced techniques are too awkward.
Smash 4 retains the simplicity but has poor physics which greatly favour defending and make doing pretty much anything that isn't shielding or rolling risky. Landing lag is so great that just going into the air against a grounded opponent is a stupid move for most characters.
Yeah, I heard about something like that they couldn't get rid of. But yeah, it gets annoying because I'm the type to input things too early in Melee. I feel like I might have a bit of a better time with a character with a 3 frame jump squat.
See how Fox recovers straight up like 3-4 times in a row so that the apex of his up-b is above the stage? That's when it would be easiest to knee him for the stock since the firefox hitbox would have ceased and he'd be in helpless state, but you don't even have to wait for the apex since a sweetspotted knee beats firefox. Alternatively you could do any of the other things mentioned. Falcon had a ton of options and chose the worst ones. You can't do that against top tier and expect to come out ahead.
Level 9's have been observed wavedashing
do you even realize the analogues between "traditional fighters" and smash's mechanics? or even able to understand neutral game, spacing, positioning, footsies, conditioning, etc
rog was gettin rocked in marvel and when he was put into the combo that would have finished him off pr rog got up to unplug his controller, the other dude paused and rog called over the TO to call him out on it and win the game
>I am unwilling to play a new and updated version of this game series because that would require putting effort into it again
>Instead I will demand that the community ignores the new game and only give the game I play a spot at tournaments
Even though its slower I feel like Falco's is a very specific time compared to like marth where I can just input the buttons whenever and shiek where I just have to do it fast.
>I am unwilling to play a new and inferior version of this game because it isn't worth my time and I can get even better at a better game
Altered to reflect real sentiments. Also, it's Melee TO's who are running Smash4 tourneys. It's not like y'all created your own scene overnight.
They also don't off stage edge guard, ledge hog, or utilize a characters best moves, but you'll probably find a stupid excuse for those too Lvl nines are just frame perfect, quickly reacting fighters.
So, gentlemen, what improved movement options could we add to Smash that retains the practical applications of wavedashing without the horribly stupid button inputs? Also, preferably without the weird slide-crouch and skid-dust animations, too.
Would we just make dashing better so that you can perform all your actions out of it? Anything else?
Can't really think of anything that wouldn't involve an additional button. Unless you repurposed one of the other buttons e.g. press shield while dashing to slide or whatever.
Smash 4 has bigger problems than a lack of wavedashing.
One word: stages. This faux pandering to the competitive crowd is so fake it hurts. Instead of listening to feedback, Sakurai just listened to a meme and gave us final destination skins. The worst part is everyone flocks to these stages, I just want to play something more interesting then flat stage with no platforms. Hell, even tournyfags pick more then final destination. What's even more jarring is that my options are so limited for no nonsense stages. Want to have a bout with a friend without anything interupting your fight? Want a non walkoff stage? Enjoy your slim fucking pickings faggot. Prease pray my game how I want not rike dat. And yes I am 100% star platinum mad
Honest question smashfriends, but how come shields NEVER break? That's a whole mechanic that's missing except for maybe 64.
Because when your shield breaks, you're pretty much dead. I'd like for shields to be a bit weaker though. Even if they were way too weak in 64, I liked how they broke at a decent size rather than being the size of a pincushion and still taking hits.
After what we've seen of stages and almost all other non-roster content, I think I'd be pretty hard-pressed to find someone who genuinely believes that Smash 4 is the best in the series.
>Falco vs Fox
Of course it's a Falco vs Fox video. The entire game revolves around those two characters. I'm sick and tired of Melee just because I don't want to fucking see these two anymore.
Half this thread is about Fox. Whenever anyone posts anyone from Melee that's meant to be impressive, it's Fox and Falco. Nobody ever mentions anything but Fox and Falco. Do you think the Fox only meme came from nothing?
because those are simply the most technical characters
thats like saying sf4 revolves around c viper
you realize the fox only no items final destination meme was created by the smash community right? then retards from outside the community think thats how the game is actually played
shiek is top tier and overplayed, not fox
L-cancelling aside (because that mechanic is stupid as fuck) Melee is the best in the series gameplay wise and if you ask me it had the last really memorable announcer in the series and Fox/Falco didn't look so fucking stupid.
I'm glad there is still a big following for Melee and Project M, simply so those who strongly dislike Brawl, Smash 4, and all future Smash Bros games have something to fall back on to enjoy and have fun with instead of complaining that Sakurai didn't listen to you at the Q&A.
Who is the worst playerbase in gaming and why is it smashfags?
Smash 64 fags = Massive nostalgia fags who think only the essential characters should be in the game
Melee fags = My serious fighting game is pure and everyone who doesn't enjoy it like I do should die of cancer
Brawl fags = Subspace emissary and Solid Snake where the best things in the Smash series ever.
Project M fags = It's an entirely original game built from the ground up by the worlds elite. Why hasn't Sakurai been hanged for making the same thing Project M team has.
Smash 4 fags = All these nostalgia fags, Smash 4 has the most characters therefore its better. Yeah there are clones but fuck you too, like King K.Rool was ever going to get in.
To me wavedashing makes sense you know, like when you airdodge in a direction carry some momentum with you in the air, it's perfectly logical that doing it into the ground or a platform conserves the momentum isn't it? All it makes you do is scoot a little. I mean momentum is carried into jumps (should be standard for platforming focused games) so I wouldn't call it a game breaking glitch to use the airdodge momentum to your advantage. Also if you want to talk about glitches how about smash4? Yoshi teleports? Wario's weird vectoring? Surviving a bowsercide?
I can't find the video but I know I've seen bowser literally shoot back up from the bottom of the stage after getting the kill, therefore keeping his stock, know idea how to pull it off though
Not who you're replying to, but every fucking time I go to my local game shop for Smash nights, all but one or two TV's have Melee, and 90% of the matches are Fox/Fox, Fox/Falco or Falco/Falco. There's a Marth sprinkled in there sometimes, but otherwise it's just Fox and Falco. Fuck off with your shit.
>tfw you love Melee and Smash 4
>tfw faggots always have an either/or mentality about it
I can fall asleep on niggas just as efficiently in both versions.
No, I think it all comes down to different opinions. Melee is my favorite, but I can see how others would like Smash 4 better. To me, it all boils down to if you want content or gameplay. I think it sucks that Sakurai said, "you aren't supposed to be serious about this and good at this game" and continues to make inferior games from a gameplay standpoint. He's even called Melee the "sharpest" of them all. Not saying that Smash 4 or Brawl suck though.
So I guess the pikachu and ice climbers webm's don't exist now?
People only talk about fox characters because they're the most prolific in the meta-game, it doesn't mean that they're the only good characters in melee though.
I mean fuck, look at Shiek.