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Project Sugar & Spite Halloween Update

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Thread replies: 240
Thread images: 52

File: Screenshot.png (175KB, 330x352px) Image search: [Google]
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Our prototype is still up to play around in.

https://d9f3c3277c32ff55e17d4918310f881b88dd7b3f.googledrive.com/host/0Bytk4QkMmXAvUVdKV0pZb0pKdEU/SuccubusPlatformer.html
>>
This will be the last thread for the foreseeable future, so if you'd like to help out, get in contact!

email:

[email protected]

blog (a bit out of date, a new one will be created):
http://letsmakeagameforthewiiu.tumblr.com/

irc:

https://qchat.rizon.net/

Replace #Rizon with #wiiugamedev

In the future there will be a page for people to report bugs, etc. after individual updates.
>>
Currently we still need:

Programmers, with experience in Unity, C# and Java languages.

Concept artists.

Musical artists for voice acting, sfx, and background music.

We could also use bugtesters.

If you think you can help, email me right away.

And a big thanks to the devteam, who's gotten us this far with this prototype. You guys are doing great.
>>
>>270127086
are you paying for any of this? or you're expecting amateurs to work for free?
>>
>>270127196

It's a game to be released for free, made by people who want to make something. Either for fun or to learn.
>>
Keep in mind, this is just a prototype, so any platforming or controls are subject to change. This is just a small area for our developers to play around in and test things out. Development has only been going on for about a month.

>>270127196

It's all completely free, and the game is for free.

It's a project for everyone to gain experience.

No one makes any profit at all.
>>
Holy shit I'm actually impressed! I saw when this was posted like a month back, and really wanted it to be successful. What kind of Java programming would this require?
>>
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postin sum artwork
>>
the up/down camera control is retarded.
>>
Damn, why can't I pan the camera back? I can't see in front of the succubus girl on the skinny platforms.
>>
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>>270127594

Yeah, it's temporary for sure.
The game does support gamepads already though.

>>270127606
Camera controls have had little development at this point. It's very high on the priority list at the moment now actually.

Stay tuned for any updates which should feature better camera control.
>>
>>270126715
Looks absolutely fantastic. Low-poly and good texture is the best.

Will be keeping an eye on this.
>>
>>270127529

If you could email me, I could get you in touch with some of the programmers, they'd be able to help you out much better than I could.

I do know that we need someone to focus on menus, etc outside of just programming in Unity.
>>
>>270127529
for the programming department we're looking for people that know the basics of the Unity engine and OOP with either C# or Javascript
>>
>>270127910
Just emailed you!
>>
>>270126715
Looks neat.
Will there be a 3DS port?
>>
>>270128389

Potentially actually.
>>
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a friendly harpy
>>
>>270128529

I always think the necklace she's wearing is a cowbell.

I wonder if there would be room for cowgirls in the game. Not really sure where that would fit in.

We do have bullfrogs.
>>
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>>270128529
>Yummy!
>>
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some additional concepts for Alura's hairstyle
>>
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>>270128883
>Those last two colours.
>>
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Concept art of the masked ghost blob girl which is currently a working concept.
Any suggestions and additions are welcome. The base model for the body is almost ready, so the masks are all thats left to be modeled.

We still don't know exactly what to do with all these fucking masks, BUT FUCK IT, SHIT'S FUN, I'M MODELING WHATEVER MASKS ARE DESIGNED AND WE'LL FIGURE OUT WHAT TO DO WITH THEM LATER
>>
please make the camera control less godawful
>>
>>270129278
I've posted my opinion on this before but still.
Top right, minus the pig tails. With the pig tails, it's just too bust
>>
>>270129889
With the different masks, something should remain consistent between all of them. The broken heart motif, for example, could be present on each type of mask, to tie them all together.
>>
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>>270129889
And the initial concept for the character.
A lot of suggestions have been made so far, such as using her as a mini-boss, an actual boss, an uncommon enemy, etc.
>>
>>270129986
Great, that's the one we went with.
>>
>>270129889
I dig the skull and masquerade masks.
The fox mask doesn't seem to fit the theme very well, though.
>>
>>270126931
>Last thread for the foreseeable future
What why?
>>
>>270127363
Didn't you say something about it being released on the Wii U?
>>
>>270129854
Don't worry, man, the eye colors are wrong. Crisis averted.
>>
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I've heard some people suggesting the glide shouldn't be restricted to one glide per jump, would you guys prefer to be able to glide at any time while in the air?
>>
>>270130262

We're not here to circlejerk, just to get some interest going, and to get new team members.

The more time we spend on threads the less time we spend making the game.

There are always ways for people to get in contact with us, and we'll always make threads during major updates. But we want to focus on what's important.

>>270130381
Yeah, it will be on PC first, but we hope to bring it to other consoles for free as well.
>>
>>270130520
I made those, only the last one was supposed to be a reference. I didn't make the connection to the other one until just now.
>>
>>270130568
I said something about this last thread, or maybe two threads ago, and yes, I'd prefer multiple glides. It could allow for more challenging flight paths. For instance, needing to drop and glide and drop without touching the ground beneath you.
>>
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Candy weapons. Do discuss this.
>>
>Implying he's not going to sell this and make cash off of /v/'s work.
>>
>>270130737

Right, we'll be working on this.

We need to test what feels the best. Right now the gliding is eh/10
>>
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This is the only thing I'll be uploading today. It's a quick concept of how I think the gliding should look when changing the camera direction.
>>
>>270130760
I'm not entirely sure if she should be a weapon user. Although, I hadn't thought about what her weapon would be. I like the general idea of candy weapons being pickups (from chests or puzzles perhaps?) for a short time that break after X amount of uses. To cite another game, sort of like Bayonetta.
>>
looks cute, I dig lowpoly. that lamppost is especially giving me good vibes.

I think you should try and encorporate momentum into the platforming, and also make the hitboxes for the pickups larger.
>>
>>270126715
Neat, like the style. Gameplay seems fairly simple right now. Jump, glide, collect things. Any ideas being worked on in that area? Tools, attacks, other mechanics to expand the gameplay?

Dem hips
>>
>>270131307

She's already going to have powers that act as weapons.

I think it would be fun if the candy weapons were just evil sentient candy that act as enemies.
>>
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>>270126715
>>
>>270131571
Well, you tried.
>>
>>270131456

I think the pickups should float towards the character, they should have a sense of gravity with an increased hitbox.

>>270131494

Yes, there are powers that add to combat and exploration.

For instance, the werewolf costume lets you have huge claws for swiping, and lets you climb walls.
>>
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>>270131494
We're still thinking about the kinds of attacks she'll have. These are the we have concepts for them.
>>
>>270131503
Oh alright that's completely different than what I thought.
I'm indifferent to this new idea.
>>
It's a shame you guys dropped the Nendoroid like design and went for modern Sonic long legs kind of design but i do wish you success, if a /v/ project is ever going to go somewhere it should be this.
>>
>>270131673
>plays once
R-really?

>>270131636
Starting to sound really interesting. Do you keep a dev blog?
>>
>>270131770
Odd. It loops for me.
>>
>>270131770

The blog is out of date, but will be updated soon.

If you want to get to know mechanics you can join the team as an advisor of sorts.
>>
>>270131770
It loops for me, man.
>>
>>270131673
if you want a bip-bop-boom like Mario64, then punch,kick,tailwhip.

If you just want a single one, then I like the heart blast, or tail whip.

strong kick is too "fighting game", sanic spin is too "crash bandicoot"
>>
>>270131852
Huh, it just stared looping for me too. Might be Firefox, it's been acting weird since a recent update.

>>270131974
Found the link, forgot to read before I wrote.
>>
>>270126715
Low-poly, good-texture, charming 3d platformer by an indie studio

THIS IS THE GAME I HAVE WANTED ABOVE ALL FOR THREE GODDAMN YEARS.

very interested in this.
>>
>>270129278
perhaps the other designs could be hairstyles to unlock?
>>
>>270132151

Feel free to help out.
>>
>Drawing tablet is in desk drawer getting dusty
I could try and pitch in as a concept artist. Is there a dire need for new staff? I'd hate to see the project fail, but I'm not sure if I'm the one for the job.
Gotta love anxiety getting in the way of literally all my endeavors
>>
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that little brat Drat
>>
>>270132403
We're always looking for texture artists, if you're interested. As for concept artists, I'm not sure. I'll let Jemusu answer that.
>>
>>270132403

We always need more concept artists.
Everyone's nice, so no need to be anxious.
Even I post really shit drawings to help out, like this one.
>>
>>270132496
Drat feels uninspired. I like the vampire thing he's got going on, but there's nothing particularly fun about (excluding the bat tie and the cute little suspenders).
>>
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>>270132496

This is the main villain by the way.

The idea is that he steals Alura's castle.
Also, there are some ideas that his dad is a rock star, and that Drat shows up as a repeating mini boss dressed up as a different type of musical artist in an attempt to be like his dad.

The only catch is that he's terrible at singing. So in the home world you can platform up to a window and hear Drat singing poorly.
>>
>>270132763
>>270132901

A major theme of the game is costumes, Alura has a bunch, and Drat even has his own.
>>
>>270132901
>>270133015
After seeing his second design, I thoroughly approve. I would recommend him constantly carrying some sort of microphone.
>>
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some more concepts
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>>270133143

There may or may not be a PaRappa the Rapper style minigame.
>>
>>270132232
If i had skills with art or programming I would. Probably the dime-a-dozen story; I really like game design and thinking about mechanics, but don't have much skill to bring to the table, except potentially some amateur level design and writing, if those are needed.
>>
>>270133474

Level design is needed, yes.
>>
We currently have a Nazi doing voice acting for the werewolf boss in the IRC.
>>
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>>270133632
oh hell yes. What would you say is the best approach to contribute them? sketch out some level designs, come up with individual puzzles/challenges? creature/enemy mechanics?


oh also, I'd love to help with voice work if there's any interest/need for that.
>>
>>270134161

Yeah, we need voice work, just email me.

Level design should be worked on with me. We need to start with concept art.

There is also ongoing discussion about challenges/puzzles, etc.
>>
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Here's a mothman
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>>270133325
Who's the artist?
This is real cute
>>
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Enemies!
>>
>>270135751
Can we suggest monsters and/or designs?

Not like "hey, put this in the game", but maybe something you find actually interesting or posible to add.
>>
>>270136146
>>270136146
of course, you're free to speak your mind
>>
No blog or something to follow?
>>
>>270134929

I like it, we need a mothman character.

>>270135482
Abby is doing most of the character art.
>>
>>270127196

dawg thats how portfolio building works. No one in the industry hires straight out of college, unless you know someone pretty important
>>
>>270136520

There's a blog in the second post, it's just not updated yet.
>>
>>270128050

shit man I only know c++
>>
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>>270136839
porn of Alura x hobgoblin when
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>>270136839

Might I suggest the regular use of Gobbling instead of Goblin? Being candy-themed and all.
>>
>>270130902
Not him, but yes, that would make the game a lot more controllable. Some way to see things in front of you like an outline would also be nice.
>>
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>>
Do you guys still suffer from that internal drama about your project leader having a giant stick up his ass?
>>
>>270130568
Yes.
It'd make the platforming a lot more fun if you can juggle between flying and falling imo.
>>
>>270136960
This is the problem
>>
>>270137392

Right, we will be heavily testing it.
There should be risk and reward.
It shouldn't be too easy to just reglide infinitely either.
>>
>>270128529
>shitscribble now in high resolution
>>
>>270128883
I still say go with a seagull color palette.
>>
Is there going to be a [spoiler[ snow level [/spoiler] ?
>>
>>270137792
that sounds a little too comfy
>>
>>270137792
Currently, the levels planned are a beach, a pyramid, a forest, and a graveyard.
>>
>>270131070
YES
THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT I WAS TELLING YOU GUYS YESTERDAY
MAKES THE GLIDING ANIMATION LOOK MORE DYNAMIC
YOU GUYS ARE THE BEST AND I'M NOT A SHILL
>>
>>270132496
>>270132901
What happened to the badass pompadour vampire antagonist you were posting about before? Why did you downgrade to shitty lifeless anime?
>>
>>270133325
What, you put the candle out and she falls asleep?
>>
>>270138089
Glad you're happy, I made the animation this morning due to the comments.
>>
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>>270126715
This is great! Are there any other comfy 3d platforms like this for the pc?
>>
>>270126715
>That model
I warned you guys that design wouldn't transfer well into 3D.
>>
>>270138340

A Hat in Time is still in development last I checked.
>>
>>270137792

There is a strong chance that the cemetery level will be snowy.
>>
>>270138098
That is his father
>>
>>270137336
yes
>>
>>270138098

That's his dad.

>>270138234

She's a sleepy character, that's her thing.

>>270138386
It's not finished
>>
>>270138386
I don't think that's 100% finished, and looks pretty nice to me
>>
>>270138563
How much better are you expecting it to look? You can add as many polygons as you want it'll still look off.
>>
>>270138487
>>270138563
Why is his dad thoroughly more inspired, detailed and characterized than he is?
>>
>>270138778

Our designs are always up for change, we'll continue to push this design until we are happy with it.

If it doesn't get to that point, we can always create a different design. Though, I think most people on the team are okay with the direction we're heading.

If you have suggestions, I'd love to hear them.
>>
>>270138386
>>270138778
Hello, I remember your comment. I know it's not the easiest thing to transfer into 3d, and I'm not all that sure we can make the designs look perfect in 3d. But as time goes on I'm sure they'll look perfectly presentable, wether that means modeling actual eyes, or whatever else we feel will need to get done.
>>
>>270138778
I think you're understimating what some more detailed textures and a few more polygons can do
>>
>>270138908

To create contrast between the two characters. He wants to live up to his dad, but he fails to.

Also, I don't consider the do be all that inspired of a design, he's just a funny cliche.
>>
>>270139110
His design communicates a lack of creativity rather than incompetence
>>
>>270139423

What would you add to his design then?
>>
http://vocaroo.com/i/s1hLjuTOxu0d
>>
Wait, what is needed to make a game on the wii u? I would love to make some nintendo shop shit.
>>
>>270139487
Whatever you took away when you switched to generic moe blob shit.
>>
>>270139517
I think you just need to ask them for a kit and they'll give it to you.
>>
>>270139517
not that much. a home office, a company, some pretty basic credentials and filling out a bunch of forms.
>>
>>270136548
>No one in the industry hires straight out of college
Programmers are often hired straight out of college so they can be paid less to be code monkeys, uneless you need a Senior one.
Artists are hired exclusively based on portfolio, and only retards go to art college since it doesn't help at all.

That's about it.
I would help OP but I know far too much about how these kind of projects go, and already have my own projects to make (and monetize them despite being free because fuck working for years for nothing at all)
>>
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>>270139609
>>
Ah ok, "Unity for Wii U"

Anyone know what percentage Nintendo takes from sales?
>>
I expected a game by /v/ to be full of nude lolis, have several Nintendo Easter eggs, and full of memes.
>>
I just finished reading the entire thread...
A few constructive criticism(even some harsh ones), lots of useless mean comments for the sake of being mean, a few objective design criticism, and a fuckton of criticism coming from people who clearly have no idea of how character design works and only think about cliche and easy stuff to criticize.
>>
>>270140467

Well, it is 4chan. Though, our team does really enjoy criticism. I know a lot of our members are already working on things that have been criticized in the prototype. Like the camera and gliding (which really we already knew needed work).
>>
>>270139487
bump
>>
love it, OP, keep it up, mang.
>>
Needs ledge grabbing
>>
>>270142631
this
>>
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Some quick-shetcy design I've made.

dunno if they will help in some way

I really just wanted to do spoopy shit.
>>
>>270143247
Neat
>>
>>270143247

Shythe

I like it.
You can do concepts for the team if you want.
>>
>>270143247
>Shythe
I love it. There better be a juicy sternum under that robe
>>
>>270129889
>>270130149
I'm partial to the Skull and Motherly masks
>>
>>270144330
If you think they are good enough, I can try.

too bad this is your last thread. I would like to keep track of the devolopment and try to help if possible
>>
>>270143247
>Skelly Engineers

This brought a smile to my face.
You're hired. See you on monday.
>>
>>270145054

Email me and hop on board.
>>
>>270138386
Looks good to me
>>
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>>270145212
>>270145148

You...you guys serious?
I mean I WOULD LOVE to, but I think it's something too big for me, I don't think I have the patience, willpower or level to be part of something like this.
>>
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>>270143247

No seriously. Skelly engineers.
>>
>>270145792
Jemusu just left for a while, so I'll say it. We have some pretty casual members right now, so it's no big problem if you can't be too active. If you're at all interested, don't be afraid to email Jemusu.
>>
>>270145792
You don't have to if you don't want to. But we do want to bring your ideas to life.
>>
>>270146015
>>270146086
Well, I'm really interested in that offer. be part of a game it's something I really wanted to try, don't really care what kind of game, and this one seems pretty cool.

I guess I can at least try.
Also, I'm studying animation and 3D modeling, si I guess it will help
>>
>>270133437
Make sure it's flashy and interesting. Take notes from Stubbs.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PtaDL0qXCVE
>>
>>270135751
could be neat
>>
>>270127585
Is this just fanart or is Wong doing concept art? Probably my favorite artist.
>>
>>270148445

He has done some concept art.
>>
bumping thread
>>
>>270148445
Wong is a concept and texture artist. Alura's current body textures are slight edits of one he made.
>>
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tried to do more shit.

I should stop doing pun-based concepts
>>
What progress has been made so far? I was around for the first thread, but Kinda fell through the cracks...
>>
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>>270148445
Ain't nothing wrong with artists drawing fanart of their the project they're involved in.
I forget who it was, but didn't some Capcom artist make an unofficial hentai manga of some series he was involved in? I specifically remember something like this happening.
>>
>>270150729
Those puns are amazing
Do more
>>
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>>270150754
We actually talked about that. It inspired the creation of a fanart folder, mainly for when someone on the team creates something that isn't meant to be used for the project.
>>
>>270150730
What we have right now can be viewed from the html in the OP. If you want to see the concept art we currently have, it was almost all dumped in the previous thread. Just type "Alura" into Archive.Foolz, and you should be able to find it.
>>
>>270150729
I like these, I really do.
>>
>>270151354
Thanks, I will
>>
>>270150754
i cant find sauce on this comic i know there is a whole series
>>
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>>270152378

https://e621.net/post/index/1/-wings%20fushisha_o

I've been looking at it for like ten minutes but... the order of the pages are all jumbled and shuffled around.
I can't make heads or tails of it. It's a story told through images and gestures, not text, and yet it still somehow manages to be confusing as fuck.
There's some japanese text, but I can't fucking read runes.
>>
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>>270152957
same here but i know there is one exactly like this but i cant find it anywhere
>>
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>>270152957
Well... it's about a guy who finds a cardboard box of abandoned cats, he rushes to a nearby vet, which turns out to be closed for the day I think, then he takes the box home, googles "how to fix kitten aids", and then the kittens go "just kidding, feed us", and the guy is just too happy that they're okay to be upset at them.

The rest is just a cat is fine too.
>>
>>270153634
Apparently the cats are just girls that got turned into cats by some mad scientist.

wat
>>
>>270152957
you guys are idiots
just hover over the letterboxes over the japanese text
they're translation bubbles
>>
>>270154572
>>270153634
>>270153203
Five minutes in google
http://g.e-hentai.org/s/807acf9fca/212373-21
>>
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>>270154724
I... I can't fap to this.
The guy in this comic has such a heart of gold.
>>
>>270154724
And in english

http://exhentai.org/g/729271/b2fbb12ea1/
>>
>>270155331
It's too adorable
>>
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>>
OP can you post the original image that appears in the corner of the screen when you collect shit? would appreciate it
>>
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>>270157016
He's out, but here you go.
>>
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Ok, last ones. Dunno why you guys like them, but I enjoy drawing shit.

here's a "specie", the Baiters. They've evolved after all these years to become the perfect baiters, taking many many forms. Their objective is to lure their preys close and then jump to them.

Too bad they aren't much intelligent and usually fucked up things by making too obvious traps
>>
>>270157310
nice, thank you, I've always wanted to learn how to trave with vectors, seem so convenient for videogame graphics.
>>
>>270157670
The baitub should have a girl in it, no one would join otherwise.
>>
>>270157310
so is she a canon semen demon?
>>
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>>270143247
It's a thing I drew
>>
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>>270157670

THE FUCKING BAIT TUB
>>
>>270158224
>>
>>270158519
10/10 bait, would use on 4chan.
>>
>>270158519
I'm legit losing my shit at the bathtub
>>
>>270158427
This sucks. let the professionals draw, okay?
>>
>>270158427
That's amazing.
Draw more
>>
>>270159284

don't be a buzzkill, anon
>>
>>270159284
>us
>professionals
We've refined and fleshed out ideas that started out as scribbles in a notebook.

I think the concept justifies the lack of drawing skill.

You guys are heroes. I'm still laughing at skelly engineers and bait tubs. They're genius.
>>
>>270137206
I like the angel crab, but that candy corn feels out of place.
>>
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>>270158519
>>270157670
>>270150729
>>270143247

Ok guys, was a really fun night. Surprised you liked my ideas. I think I'm really gonna mail Jemusu and see if I can help with something.

Have a good night
>>
>>270158427
what is it
>>
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I just want a skele science bro
>>
>>270161087
I thinks its more of this
>>270143247
>>
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Huh, I thought this was dropped, well, ive been working on my Art Skills, so I guess I can help out more then
>>
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>>270161186

Make them invent bubblegum to use as blimps or jetpacks or something.
I want to see the skelly engies go complete space pirate.
>>
>>270161395
If you're interested, you'll have to email Jemusu. We don't plan to make another thread for quite a while.
>>
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>>270161661
Hot air balloon you say?
>>
I might sign up for concept artist since I've been taking art classes and want to see what I can do.
>>
>>270134929
This is really adorable, man.
>>
Man all he art in this thread is nice
>>
>>270162638
Make one like the TUUBES space pirate, but with a bone
>>
>>270157310
If i knew you guys were going to use that one i would've handed you the file with verctors included, too bad i merged them with the color layer.
>>
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>>270163864
>>
>>270138558
Please, DO elaborate
>>
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>>270164610
>>270163864
Like this? The body got a bit messed up, but the ideas there...
>>
>>270165021
Aww yeah. That's nice
>>
Good luck with that project, OP!
>>
Didn't you hear? Jemusu is actually the son of the chupacabra. He's threatening to eat all the team member's goats if they don't work their asses off.
>>
>>270165021
You DO realize you are doing art for a practically dead thread, right?
>>
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>>270164610

I swear, there's endless potential in skeleton scientists.
>>
Here's a thing
>>
>>270166670
ooh, thats cool
>>
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I don't even know anymore
>>
>>270168080
Is that a pumpkin mecha?
>>
Is thread dead?
>>
>>270168947
Some Abby guy is in charge of the art, drawing somethig seems pretty pointless
>>
>>270169454
Yeah, but its fun.
>>
>>270168947
Yeah, I'm pretty much just monitoring it until it gets archived. Jemusu will probably look over everything he missed tomorrow.
>>270169454
Abby's only the lead concept artist, we're looking over everyone's ideas.
>>
>>270169548
Maybe when there's more content.
>>
Holy fuck, I'm completely surprised.
This game is super cute, and I'm surprised a random group of /v/ anons managed to make something playable. It usually never gets past the idea phase.

Keep it up
>>
what can I do thats actually helpful? Drawing bones mc scientist is fun and all, but its not very helpful...
>>
>>270169658
Alright, i'd still feel guilty for messing with stuff that modelers might be already working on.
>>
>>270170357
We don't start the modeling process before very careful overview. The only enemies being modeled right now are the Pumpkin enemy, and the banshee with all the masks.
>>270170337
Email Jemusu, and tell him what you can do. Even if you decide to be a casual contributor, we're happy to accept the help.
>>
>>270170665
I kinda already did email. I don't want to pester him.
>>
>>270170973
He's out right now, so just wait for him to get back. Either later tonight, or tomorrow morning.
>>
>>270127086
why is it made with slow ass languages like that
if this was c++ i could help with this
>>
>decent at drawing
>can't think of an enemy concept
Give concept so I can draw something.
>>
>>270171248
>im a shit programmer who can't learn other languages to fit the situation
>>
>>270171089
Oh ok. thanks.

>>270171286
A were-bat or something
>>
>>270171286
Newts made of soot, with multiple eyes.
>>
>>270171286
Skeleton Helicopter
>>
>>270171373
i know java, but prefer the more superior c++
also im still in school, so ill still learn all the other languages
>>
>>270171609
>prefer the more superior c++
enjoy never finishing anything
>also im still in school, so ill still learn all the other languages
i bet you think CS is about programming it's not
>>
>>270171867
dude i know its not all about programming, not my first year
>>
>>270171286
Make a zombie skunk
Double the stank.
I'll probably now draw that if you don't.
>>
I'm getting nothing but a black screen.
>>
>>270173396
Did you try resetting a few times? If so, reset the browser. If that doesn't work, then I don't know.
Thread posts: 240
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