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Do you see this? What is this to you?

To most people this is three basketballs floating in an aquarium.

To 'art people', however, this is an exploration of transience, human frailty and vulnerability to change in fortune.

Three basketballs floating in an aquarium. This is considered a sculpture. This is estimated to be worth between $400,000 and $600,000 dollars.

This is what I am afraid video games may become in the future. You hear it all the time. You hear people wanting games to be 'more than just games'. You hear people saying how games are 'finally being considered high art'. Well, this is what all of that amounts to. It amounts to minimum effort for maximum pay-off and a world in which games are meant to be analyzed with fake meanings instead of played. The problem isn't in the idea of art itself, but rather in the way certain people interpret art.

Video games are art. Every single video game, by definition, would be considered art. But nooo, that's not enough for 'artsy' people. See, once upon a time these artsy people did sculptures, made indie films, and did elaborate bizarre performances. Now, unfortunately, they have realized that video games aren't hard to make and it instantly gets them a large audience rather than them having to rent out art exhibits or film their movies in small private theaters. However, the game community is huge and they're getting more opposition to their ideas than they thought.

What do you think of games as art? What's high art to you?
>>
Art is fucking dumb and shouldn't be worried about. Go ram a dildo up your ass and get the photograph framed in the lourve
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>there is only one kind of art
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>To 'art people', however, this is an exploration of transience, human frailty and vulnerability to change in fortune.

Then instead of basketballs there should be three bulletballs.
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>>268680019
Yeah, this shit art exists.

But so does nice looking stuff.

The same may happen to games, but there will always be a variety.
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>>268680019
modern art is bullshit. there are plenty of people who approach art in the traditional sense of portraits, landscapes, etc.

In video games this is indie games. This is already happening.

Modern art is the idea that evoking a thought or emotion is enough for it to be considered art. Indie games is the same in that regard.
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>>268680713
additionally modern art is the equivalent of those prank videos where they prank random people and when they get mad the guy goes "it's just a prank, there's a camera." as if that made it ok.
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>>268680713
This is actually post modern art, but I agree it's shit
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>>268680019
>This is estimated to be worth between $400,000 and $600,000 dollars.

So... if I make this exact same setup, I can be rich?
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>>268680713

But here's the problem. These 'artists' are talking about making games that are 'more than just games'. Obviously, evoking a thought or emotion isn't enough for them. If it was then they'd all consider Pac-Man to be great art.

Their definition of art is now 'something designed to promote some kind of socio-political change or tell stories with few gameplay elements'.

They can't have 'art' without pretentiousness.
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>>268680858
You need to make a name for yourself first
>>
>video games aren't hard to make
It's a hell of a lot harder than just tossing three basketballs in an aquarium. Besides, the thing about video games is that you can't just sell one for thousands of dollars to a dumb artfag with more money than brains, you have to actually make it marketable if you want to sell more than one copy.
>>
I see a stunning recreation of discovering your loved one had a miscarriage.

Truly riveting.
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>>268680858

No, it's gotta be that one.

It's 'special' for some reason.

The way art works is that it's only valuable if a certain person made it.
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>>268680019
>This is estimated to be worth between $400,000 and $600,000 dollars.
They can estimate all they want. Real question is how much would someone pay for it.
And if the thing breaks, and insurance covers it, they won't be getting more than $100 to replace it.
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>>268680858
So you are saying you could make the exact same thing?
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>>268680932
>It's a hell of a lot harder than just tossing three basketballs in an aquarium

Not really. You can basically make a low-budget indie game in a day and people will shower it with praise.
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What would happen if I put a bunch of dildos and flashlights in an aquarium?

3 billion dollars?
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>>268681014
>Real question is how much would someone pay for it.

Oh, people will pay for this shit.

You don't need to be smart to be rich.
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>>268680019

I'm a physicsfag so I see subatomic particles floating in an aether of quantum potential.
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>>268681118
Yes. Just claim it's an interpretation of sexual repression in today's society.
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>What we're looking at is a Three Ball 50/50 Tank from 1985. You know, the reason that I used a basketball over another object is really probably for the purity of it, that it's an inflatable, it relates to our human experience of to be alive we have to breathe. If the ball would be deflated, it would be a symbol of death. But it's inflated, so it's a symbol of life.

>The balls always remain exactly 50 percent submerged below the water line, but due to vibration in the room it will move the balls either to the left or right. And that's one of the really wonderful, beautiful, chaotic aspects of the tank.

>I wanted to keep these pieces very, very pure. And so I didn't want to put chemicals in the water because I wanted to keep it very, very womb-like. So there was an acceptance of a maintenance and of a degradation that can occur. Eventually the basketballs do have to be replaced, and they're just replaced with basketballs at that moment hopefully we would have two that are orange and one that would be brown.

>You know, one of the interesting things about the ready-made in art—whether it's a building or whether it's an aquarium or a basketball, is that the ready-mades are really a form of acceptance of the world. So in the journey of art, in a way, the first level is self-acceptance. And then this other calling, almost like a higher level, is to be able to accept, the outside world. And I really believe that the ready-made is a metaphor for the acceptance of others.

I wish I had this guy's job
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>>268681118

Making money with art isn't about what you make. It's about who you know.
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>>268681237
You know. Back in the day of classical artists. The guilds would beat the crap out of people like this.
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>>268680019
If we call video games art, that means by extension that gameplay has an inherent value, and that video games can be recognized as art based on nothing but its accomplishments in that regard, without needing cutscenes, fancy graphics, or pseudo-intellectual bullshit.

In other words, it's the ultimate way of saying "games just need to fun."
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>This is what I am afraid video games may become in the future.

Yes, because conceptual art is the only kind of art that exists today.

There's room for everything. If you like conceptual, abstract games, play those. If you don't like them, don't play them.
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Videogames won't become like modern art because with modern art there will only be one original so they can sell this shit for thousands of dollars and its very useful for money laundering.

If at anything videogames will become more like film. Think modern American box office movie experiences, explosions, excessive CGI, cute actors/actresses and other gimmicks that will get as many people in and out of the cinema as possible.
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>>268681041
Like what? The only thing I can think of even remotely like that is Gone Home, but even then they obviously went to a lot of trouble creating the house.
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>>268680019
I see a waste of time and the "artist" should get a real job
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If literally anyone with access to wal mart can recreate this then how exactly is it worth anything more than the sum of its parts?
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>>268681237
I could come up with something more fucking convincing in about half an hour.

Fuck, just say something about the fame of basketball players and how short lived it is is a mirror of life and death in general
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>>268681194
>aether?

And you're a physicsfag?
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>>268681547

Because he has the linguistic voodoo to back it up. See any and all conceptual art analysis.
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>>268681547
Art isn't only about technical skill.
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>>268681547
Because deep metaphors.
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>>268681237
>it's inflated, so it's a symbol of life.

My fetish is life
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>>268681360
>fun
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>>268681656
>linguistic voodoo

As a linguist, I take offense to that.
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>>268680019
>To 'art people', however, this is an exploration of transience, human frailty and vulnerability to change in fortune.

How does that image convey all of that?
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>>268681632

I knew I'd get that response. I'm hardly being literal, Christ. Do us both a favor and check up the informal definition of the word, and the informal nature of this board. I take it any mention of soul riles you up as well?
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>>268681601
You may be able to. But can you look good in a turtleneck?
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>>268681820
How does it not?
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>>268680713
>The Graveyard
I'm not sure if I'm more angry that someone made it or that there's someone out there who think it's the greatest game they've ever played.
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>Do you see this? What is this to you?
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>>268681025
>yes but I could make it better by putting in my own piss instead of water
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>>268681237

Kek. I thought it was going to be about how the basketballs represent the fragility of our lives and how easily everything can get fucked up.
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>>268681237

Inflation represents life
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>>268681820
If you have the imagination, anything could.

But the rule of thumb is, if you have to spell out to people what your "art" means, you're a terrible artist. Because we could just as easily interpret it as literally anything else.
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>>268681820
You got to read the notecard that is next to the display.

Personally I don't believe art should 'tell' you anything. It should be in what you get from it. If I look at a picture and think that it's about some guy whose sad about his dead wife, thats what I'm getting from it.
If I have to read a notecard sitting next to it so I know what the hell I'm looking at, that's not a sculpture or a painting. That's a poem or essay.
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>>268681237
To say so much nonsense about something you cobbled together in a few minutes, have people give you thousands of dollars for it and not break out in a stupid grin even once takes some serious balls.
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>>268681873

To my plebeian eyes it looks like three basketballs in a tank. I look at something like Starry Night and I think "this is art, it evokes emotion in me, its beautiful".

I look at this and I see three basketballs in a tank. So I'm asking, whats special about it?
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>>268680219
yfw this is literally happening right now.
it was just taken down this week
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>>268682181
So it's not special to you and it doesn't evoke emotions. Good for you. Move the fuck on, then. Don't get mad at people who do like that piece of art.
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>>268682195
Story on this is that that was an 'Inflatable Christmas Tree' put on display in France. It was taken down for obvious reasons.
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>>268682293

Whoa, hey there anon. When did I say I was mad at people liking the art? I just wanted to understand how people came to the conclusion of "exploration of transience, human frailty and vulnerability to change in fortune" from the image.
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>>268682484
It's called subtext.

Even kids' stories have subtext. The story about the fox and the grapes, for example, isn't just about a fox who can't get something and is bitter about it. It's also supposed to tell us something about human nature.
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>>268682484
You got to read the notecard attached to it.
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>>268682195
>>268682316
and by "taken down" you mean someone stabbed the fuck out of this christmas buttplug
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>>268680019
>Video games are art. Every single video game, by definition, would be considered art.
Craft, for sure. Art, only if the creators believe they're making art. Which isn't always the case necessarily.

>The problem isn't in the idea of art itself, but rather in the way certain people interpret art.
I agree with that, but probably not in the way that you mean it. I think "Is x art" is a boring conversation. Obviously video games can be art. The real conversation is "is x good art or bad art".

>>268682181
Emotional response is irrelevant. Something can be art without evoking emotion, and something can evoke emotion without being art.
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>>268682683
No. A Christian group pointed out that it in fact looks like a massive dildo, and they removed the display.
Cause no one wants to be the guy in the news under the headline, "Man/Woman stabs giant dildo"
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>>268682661

Okay, sure. Metaphors and shit.

I just don't see the connections between the high concepts mentioned and... well, basketballs sitting in a tank. But I guess I'm too plebeian to see it.
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>>268682819
>dildo
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>>268682661
So who the fuck was able to figure that out by looking at it and not listening to the artists bullshit explanation?
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>>268680019
Oh boy is it time for the monthly artz and video gamez thread? Ok let me grab the popcorn and watch autistsm debating things it knows nothing about.

Good on you OP.
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>>268682819
Dildo. Its a butt plug. Please I'm an expert
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>>268682889
>I just don't see the connections between the high concepts mentioned
Well, that's not surprising, is it? People study art for decades, reading hundreds of books. If you take someone to a baseball game for the first time ever, that will look pretty random, too. Just because something look random to you doesn't mean it is random.
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oh boy
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>>268682661
How are you supposed to figure out the connection between three basketballs in an aquarium and "transience, human frailty and vulnerability to change in fortune"?
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>>268683048

Typical autistic 'muh /v/ culture' response.
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http://youtu.be/AXWm1sT_1rM?t=1m57s

>Required to go to contemporary classical music performance for gen ed music class
>Guy on stage starts playing this as the opening piece
>2/3 of it is him just blowing through the clarinet inaudibly
>Music professors sitting next to me are praising it like the second coming of christ

I will never understand artists.
I get that the performance probably took a good amount of technical skill, but it was boring as fuck and everyone seemed to be praising the music rather than the performer.
I've also heard from my music professor that there's a "musical" piece where a pianist will walk up on stage, open the cover on the piano keys and just sit there in silence for like 10 minutes.
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>>268683113
Any retard knows what is happening is baseball. You throw the ball, sometimes you hit it, then you run. It's so easy young children do it.

You're not seeing anything special, you're simply applying your own bullshit opinions to a mundane situation because you want it to be more.
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>>268683113

How does studying art teach you that basketballs in a tank can mean exploration of transience, human frailty and vulnerability to change in fortune?

I mean, if the basketballs can be a metaphor ANYTHING, then can anything be art? And if they can't be a metaphor for anything, then how do you know what they're a metaphor of?
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>>268682974
I don't really approach art that way. To me, it's not about figuring out or solving a puzzle. You should first ask yourself what something says to YOU. And then look at what the artist was trying to achieve. The "human frailty" is just one interpretation.

But it's also important to not dismiss other people's differing readings as "bullshit".
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>>268682316
he's such an edgy faggot its disgusting.
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>>268683373
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>>268683272
Those kinds of artists are the type of people that give participation awards and gets mad when the winning team gets bigger trophies than the losers
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>>268683272
If something involved technical skill I could appreciate that
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>>268682195
I heard the artist was also punched in the face.
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>>268683373

>You should first ask yourself what something says to YOU.

That looks like 3 basketballs in a tank. Let me check aga- nope, 3 basketballs in a tank.

>And then look at what the artist was trying to achieve.

He dropped three basketballs in a tank and called it art.

...

I dunno man, I don't think this works for me.
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>>268683272
>I've also heard from my music professor that there's a "musical" piece where a pianist will walk up on stage, open the cover on the piano keys and just sit there in silence for like 10 minutes.
It's called 4'33".
>>
Art is subjective. That's all you need to know.
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>>268683365
>I mean, if the basketballs can be a metaphor ANYTHING
It can possibly be a metaphor for anything, and it's up to you to say if you think their explanation is bad

>then can anything be art?
Yes.

>How does studying art teach you that basketballs in a tank can mean exploration of transience, human frailty and vulnerability to change in fortune?
Off the top of my head, the basketballs have a pretty clear relation to fortune because of the NBA. Them floating up and down in the water can possibly show how the fortune is changed by the environment around it, and the physical relation to the other balls shows how some people have different fortunes than others. That's just off the top of my head, so it's not really far fetched to conceive some sort of meaning for it. Think about it for yourself.
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>>268683090
What even is a point of a buttplug?
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>>268680880
Pac-Man fits alot more in video game art then Gone Home or any pretentious indie bullshit game
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>>268680019
>This is estimated to be worth between $400,000 and $600,000 dollars.
By who?And who would buy this, isn't it easier to make one yourself?Dude is something really wrong with capitalism nowadays or is just people that have gone totally retarded?
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Do you not think art only looks dumb because you don't get it? I mean look at it a different way, show this to someone who doesn't know shit about videogames and it just looks like a bunch of meaningless lines and symbols to them.

Sure they "get" games like cod and assassin's creed or whatever, but you "get" pretty pictures of sunsets and flowers
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>>268683782

Ah, I see. Honestly I've never really been into art but I like your explanations. Thanks for giving me some of your insight.
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>>268683807
You plug it in your butt and feel the good chemicals flow in your brain canals.
>>
99% of EVERYTHING is shit. That goes for classical art as well as modern. We just don't have a habit of remembering the shit so it's super easy to romanticize past styles while having a more informed view of whatever is currently going on. There is good Modern art, it is just rare, just like there was a whole lot of really shitty classical art that just copied everyone else's work without adding anything interesting.
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>>268680019
This is why Hatred, for all the shit it gets, is perfect "high art". It's a biting commentary on how we view violence in our media (specifically, in games). Remove any pretense of justification for your wanton slaughter and what are you? You're no longer a hero but so hated people want to ban and censor your game.

It's the most artistic game we've ever seen.
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>>268683640
By "what the artist was trying to achieve" I mean research the artist. Look up interviews with him, look at his other works, read if he has included any notes with the artworks.

And it's not about abstraction. Any painting is just a "bunch of liquid composition smeared on a surface". The same way you can look at this piece and see only "3 basketballs in water".
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>>268683682

Are there more examples of this? Blank canvases, etc?
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>>268680019
Art really is terrible. One of my friends is in a performing body class at our uni, and 2 of the girls in there had everyone in the class get some scissors and cut away at their clothes. After both girls were ass-naked they declared that it was a form of expression, and the teacher gave them extra credit. There's a screencap floating around of a guy in an art school talking about how 2 people did a semester final project that consisted of one of the students taking the other student's virginity in front of the student body. Artsy people have a higher ratio of crazies than any other field, and it just gets worse the higher up you go. The worse part is that once someone has reached the top, effort doesn't matter anymore. People pay big bucks for the brand name, without caring about the quality. Sculpting, painting, drawing, theatre, films, music, etc. is all the same. Filled with people famous for being famous.
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>>268684001
I think that's what Hatred would like to see itself as, sure.
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>>268683919
Money laundering, just under a different name.
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>>268682819
>Cause no one wants to be the guy in the news under the headline, "Man/Woman stabs giant dildo"
I'd jump at the chance. Hell, I've been in the newspaper under the headline "graffiti sprayer has humor, but no intelligence" before.
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>>268683807
it's to keep the poop from falling out of your ass when you're a sexual deviant that has had so much butt sex that your anus can no longer remain shut
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>>268684072
>I didn't understand it therefore there is nothing to understand
>>
What's the point of representing something if no one will understand what it is unless you explicitely tell them?
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>>268684001

It actually is though. Why is a violence in other games acceptable in their context? Is violence ever justified? Should it ever be?

In a lot of ways Hatred is violence without it trying to have a facade of any justification.
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>>268683807
It's just a specially shaped dildo for butt stuff, really.
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>>268680019
Here's the thing, if someone makes Fluid Dynamics: The Statement on the Human Condition the Game: Art Edition, games that are actually fun and worth playing will still exist. If every human on Earth played video games, you'd get such a wide variety of games, complaining about the existence of art games would be as silly as complaining about the existence of art films. Let people do what they want, they aren't bothering you.
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>ridiculing modern art
>"games are art too"
stay pleb /v/
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>>268684070
John Cage's 4'33" was inspired by blank canvas art. He pretty much took the idea and translated it to music.

It's somewhat different though. The point of 4'33" is to show that there is no such thing as silence. Because when the piece is performed, you're still hearing all the sounds around you. When the piece was originally performed, it was outdoors in a forest area.
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>art
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>>268683807
Prolonged anal stimulation through displacement since the anus is far less suitable to constant in and out movements than the vagina, unless you're pain resistant and use enough lube to oil a bobsled track.
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>>268684152
story time
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>>268684190
/v/ doesn't understand =/= no one will understand
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>>268680019
I dont know about you guys but the first thing I saw was two white guys and a nigga.
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>>268680970
like if some hollywood starlet shit on a dead cat

that shit and dead cap become priced?
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this thread actually makes me want to make art

but the pretentious kind
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>>268684394
I wasn't talking about this in particular, even though I doubt anyone could even begin to guess what the author had in mind.
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>>268680019
You know, this might be art.
When I look at it I want to do one thing only
SLAM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NAnoj_trYfo
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>>268681547
Nobody with money is stupid enough to believe in the high art cult. They use these pieces to move vast amounts of money.
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>>268680019
How are the balls so evenly spaced?
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>>268684503
I love how everyone always goes to poop and pee when trying to make fun of modern art.

>but is it art if i poop and pee on a-
Yes it is. It's also been done to death to the point where it's hack to do so.
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>>268684385
There's no big story, I've just sprayed "People are funny animals." in a well visible place in the town center one dark night, and a day or two later the newspaper used it as the pickup story for an article about a growing graffiti problem they seem to had planned anyway.
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>>268684605
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Remember the episode of South Park about the Tale of Scroty McBoogerballs? That's art.
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>>268684529
Well, for starters, not every artist creates art for people. And as I've said earlier ITT, it's not only about communicating one fixed idea or emotion, either.

Just because your reading differs from what the artist set out to convey doesn't mean your take has no value or you should try harder.
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>>268684136
But the artist's/creator's intentions don't matter according to art critics. The only evaluator for meaning of art is the individual who views it.

So for all the shitflinging Polygon and other sites are sending the way of the developers, trying to discredit them at every turn, they're focusing on something that doesn't matter. Intent of the artist is trivial in art.
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>>268683272
>>268683682
It's not a pianist, it's a full orchestra and audience.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zY7UK-6aaNA

"Music" like this is at least interesting because it's pretty much performance art that requires audience participation. Everyone stays silent because it's "music." It requires at least charisma to gather all these people here to do something so ridiculous and sell the idea.
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>>268681529
>skill

So the OP's picture and most modern art isn't art? Good to know.
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>>268684657
>Newspapers don't know humans ARE animals.
>>
>american art is every art humanity has ever created
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>>268680019
I'm annoyed that they tried to get the basketballs to remain vertical, but fucked it up slightly and none are in alignment.
>>
I had no idea there were so many art majors on /v/
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>>268684760
>But the artist's/creator's intentions don't matter according to art critics. The only evaluator for meaning of art is the individual who views it.
Right. My implication was that while Hatred would like to see itself as a subversive comment on violence in culture, I don't think it succeeds in doing that. Or perhaps they're lying entirely.
>>
>>268684635
Science art. It's actually really cool.
>>
And if you shake the tank, what happens to that frailty?
>>
>>268684910
No, the intelligence reference was because obviously an intelligent person wouldn't deface public spaces with graffiti.
>>
>>268684656
How about I kill a cow and leave it to rot in the middle of an art gallery? Its constant decay represents the transience of existence and the eternal cycle of mortality, as evidenced by the clouds of flies and maggots swarming all over it.
>>
>>268684635
The nigger field effect.
>>
>>268684936
Okay, I misread your initial post. I get what your on about now. I think by simply provoking outrage and having people defend the violence in other games it does succeed on some level, though not completely.
>>
>>268684814
John Cage wrote mostly for piano, but 4'33" is meant for any combination of instruments. It's been performed countless times by many different groups of people with various instruments. That video is just one example.
>>
>not liking modern art
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fVOOSwE4IA
>>
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>>268683782
>and the physical relation to the other balls shows how some people have different fortunes than others

But they're floating at the same height.

You just made that shit up, art is a scam CONFIRMED.
>>
>>268684925
>>268684976
see >>268681237
>>
>>268684001
>You're no longer a hero but so hated people want to ban and censor your game.
But that's wrong. People have been looking for people wanting to ban and censor it but have come up with no one.

Also the devs of Hatred say it's not art, it's just a game for "gaming pleasure." It's a product like most games.
>>
What the fuck is wrong with society, why does this pretentious shit exist? I guess what I take away from it is the reminder that humans are a bunch of dumb apes riding a rock through space, this is the human equivalent of flinging poo.
>>
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>>268684976
It turns into performance art and becomes even more valuable.
>>
>>268685075
>How about I kill a cow and leave it to rot in the middle of an art gallery?
Yes, and it's been done. A guy shot some dogs for an art piece I think. Just by making it gross or violent doesn't mean it isn't art.
>>
>>268684938

No. That's just in this one picture. The horizontal position of the balls change all the time.
>>
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>tfw this thread is estimated to be worth $2 gorillion and is a statement on the cultural effects of the ebola outbreak in west Africa
>>
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How about I bring in a blank canvas and say that that my art is all about what ISN'T painted?

>AND THEN I GOT PAID $100,000 FOR THIS MASTERPIECE
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Let's say I come with a hammer and smash the glass from that piece of art.
How much do you think I'd be charged for breaking it?
>>
>>268680019
>What do you think of games as art? What's high art to you?

Video games only get close to being art when they emulate another medium

>TLOU is only art by being akin to a movie
>VNs are only art by being akin to literature
etc
>>
>>268685343
Someone already did that literally almost 100 years ago. You're that slow.
>>
>>268685343

Already been done.
>>
>>268680019
This isn't art. It's three basketballs floating in a fish tank.
Art can be anything expressed from human creativity, considering the artist can explain their motivation. Considering the basketballs in water are meant to portray transience, I very much believe that the artist was high and looking at a fish tank. If I ever met the artist, I would ask them what the piece meant, and why.
If this was called "Three basketballs in a fish tank.", then I would consider it art, basing it off the motive of wanting to see how three basketballs look while floating in a fish tank. Sure, nobody would want to buy it, but at least it's not pulling existential '2deep4u' bullshit.
>>
>>268685343

Sorry, you gotta be first.
>>
>>268685308
No John, you are the art.

And then John was worth a quadrillion dollars.
>>
>>268680019
The real question is, why do people care? Why does the label "art" make a difference? Are people that retarded? A game is a game.
>>
>>268681547
It has the artist's name behind it.

Same reason why some shitty Chinese factory-made purse is worth 4 grand because it says Gucci on it.
>>
Can I become a famous artist by taking a shit, shaving off all of my hair, plaster it onto my shit, and call it a commentary on artplebs having shit for brains?
>>
>>268685306
Yes, they change with science. I'm not saying that they stay perfectly still, I'm saying that it's cool that this piece is meant to shift and drift with the outside disturbances and the impossibility of keeping them evenly spaced. It's food for thought.
>>
>>268685075
>>268685267
I actually saw a fucking cool piece of art which was just a collection of sliced cadavers in formaldehyde. One of the cadavers was a cow and it was split down the middle so you could walk right through the two glass formaldehyde containers. I think the artist name was Damien hirst.

Not all postmodern art is shit, sometimes it's neat.
>>
>>268685361
You only added to the artists statement. It just became TWICE as valuable.
>>
>>268681237
It's like this guy was a high school English teacher in a past life or something.
>>
>>268685631
see
>>268684656
>>
There should be an artist whose art is exclusively the unwarranted immolation of the art of others.
That would be entertaining to watch.
>>
>>268680019
What irks me is not that this is art, anything can be art. A child's finger painting can be art. You can even call this art deep. What gets to me is how much monetary value is placed in art like this. The artist needed no skill to produce this. They needed no effort or training. I guess it's mostly the fault of the buyer, they're allowed to buy whatever they want for however much they want to pay, but I just don't like the fact that someone can just buy 3 basketballs and an aquarium from Walmart, put them together in half an hour and make more money with that than most people do in a year.
>>
>>268685647
Loose seaweed does the same in the ocean, so everyone should pay me money to look at the ocean from now on
>>
>>268685267
If anything, creating shock horror amplifies the visual emotion of the piece, along with it being of limited showing time due to decomposure.
It would work, among heavy protest and publicity.
>>
>>268685631
Only if you sell it right. If you've done your time in art school and people don't have to do too much research on you to know that you know your shit, then you might have a shot.
>>
>>268683921
>defending symbolism
>dorf fortress is symbolism too!


Go fuck yourself
>>
>Hate on moderns arts
>Cream yourselves over YoutubePoops and how deep they are

Hypocrisy is thy name /v/.
>>
>>268685689
You're just not understanding the deeper meaning of what I said
>>
>>268685739
Duchamp
>>
>>268682167
>>268682050
>>268681601

I went to art school, generally very good with focus on industrial art and illustration, but we did have that one class where we learned how to make bullshit artist statements.

I'm not kidding, you're encouraged to show contempt to the reader of your statement, and get graded on how much you can make fun of them without them knowing.

Its a post-modern artist in-joke.
>>
>>268685652
I went to a place that did this but with real human bodies, you didnt get to walk through it like that, but one of the bodies was all sliced up from head to toe into thin layers

it was pretty cool, but I think it was more for science than art
>>
>>268685853
No one thinks youtubepoops are deep.
>>
>>268685853
Nobody in the history of anything has ever considered a Youtube Poop "deep".
>>
>>268685768
The aquarium is a closed system. You don't understand science or art.
>>
>>268685853
Who the fuck thinks youtubepoops are deep?
>>
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It doesnt matter WHAT you do. It matters WHO does it. That's modern art for ya. If you have 10 photos of shit - the only one that can be consired as an art is the one made by famous person.
Why the fuck people even care what's art and what isn't? It changes absolutely nothing. Care about FUN, this is what matters, not some bullshit awards
>>
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>>268685853
>how deep they are

I'm pretty sure everyone will agree they're just meant to be humorous
>>
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>>268685652

Reminds me of Hannibal.
>>
>>268686015
Because how am I meant to look mature and grown up when playing my video games? All the important people will laugh at me :(
>>
>>268685982
I do.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Osh-KYy4Cw
>>
>>268680019
It's already happened, OP. Just look at Gone Home.

Modern art is shit.
>>
>>268686025
What the hell is going on in that picture?
>>
>>268682683
and by "someone stabbed the fuck out of this christmas buttplug" you mean someone fucked the stab out of this christmas buttplug
>>
>>268686015
Fun doesn't make money, anon.
>>
I honestly believe that Hitler was a better artist than Picaso
>>
>>268685652
I don't think a cow cut in half is cool because its art or it implies something or it expresses something.

I think its cool because its a motherfucking cow cut in half, its a fascinating way to view the inside of a creature.
>>
>>268685853
Nobody does this
>>
>>268686216

She found Hannibal's rape dungeon so Hannibal chopped her up. Its a great show.
>>
>>268683150
Poor artfags.
>>
I think everybody should get up, because it's time to slam now
>>
>>268685853
sir?
>>
>>268681547
>>268683961
>>268685186
see
>>268685961
>>
>>268685918
This was referenced in Braid. Is Braid an art game?
>>
>>268684072
Wasn't the one about the virginity taking just a ruse to see how many people would actually go see that of it was real?
>>
>>268686223
Auschwitz was truly a masterpiece.
>>
>>268680019
Fucking screen tearing
>>
>>268686180
Gone Home actually had some visual direction and a meaning behind all the walking.
This is just three basketballs in a fishtank. Hell, they didn't even hide the basketball logos.
>>
>>268686228
It creates and shares emotion with multiple people, in this case fascination. It's art on a technical level.
>>
>>268686331
seriously, look up hitlers paintings
>>
>>268686223
In the art of war, yes.
>>
>>268683150
>doesn't have the guts to show how "great" his entire sculpture is

He deserved that spot.
>>
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>>268685961
Called it.
>>
>>268686385
see
>>268682804
>>
>>268686317
I took it at face value because it's something that seems entirely plausible.
>>
>>268686025
Hey, I remember similar shit from Jojo's part5. There was one guy killed, sliced into like 20 pieces and then put in to glass cubes. I wonder who thought of that shit first.
>>268686221
But consumers dont get any money from playing videogames. Do you get money from watching shitstains on the wall or fapping to hands of Mona Lisa?
>>
>>268685071
Grafitti can legitimate art, and the best thing about it is it's free and anonymous. Kind of like 4chan.
>>
>>268686315
It wants to be so bad
>>
>>268681454
Have you heard of Tampon Run?
>>
>>268686571
Huh, well I guess my argument was invalid. I still figured that it was more science then art, but I guess it could just be a science thing.
>>
>>268686223
some of his paintings are good, but it shows he is not really that good whenever he steps out of his comfort zone of large buildings
>>
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>>268686748
No, it's art. It's just that your reasoning was wrong. It's not art because of the emotional response, it's art because the creator claims that it's art.
>>
>>268685853
>YoutubePoops
>deep
This is too retarded to be a bait.
>>
>>268680019
>ctrl+f oven
>no results

i am artistic and unique.. t-thats whyy
>>
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>art
>>
>>268683373
You are most likely right, but that's no excuse for three basket balls floating in an aquarium to be worth hundreds of thousands of dollars.
>>
>>268680019
>400k to 600k

Is anyone really stupid enough to pay that?
>>
>>268682167
Three, to be exact.
>>
>>268686596
I wasn't referring to consumers, I was referring to developers. They're going to make the decisions that benefit them, that make them money. If micro transactions give them a better chance to make a profit, they'll take it. If cutting game content out of the final build and releasing them later as DLC promises ongoing interest at the least amount of effort, they'll do it.
Industry isn't about fun, anon.
>>
>>268687037
>that's no excuse for three basket balls floating in an aquarium to be worth hundreds of thousands of dollars.
There is no excuse. Some people will pay that much because they're rich and that's what they're willing to pay. Whether or not they're doing it to prove their status or because they love art, or because they've been tricked into thinking they love art is irrelevant and not really provable anyway.
>>
>>268687056
People with more money than they could ever spend want to be entertained for more than a typical drunken orgy lasts, so they buy this expensive shit, from whoever makes the best description of what it really means, so they can tell their friends about it, who may be obvious to the fact that this whole thing is a giant ruse.
>>
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>>268680019
The issue here is, what makes an amalgamation of art a piece of art itself? When someone says a movie is art, they usually refer to the movie's underlying meaning or story, unless I'm uninformed. Maybe also because of their visuals. Certainly most people don't call all movies art, just as all games shouldn't be called art. Games do contain music, visuals, writing, many things that are art, but having art in them doesn't necessarily make the games themselves art.
So what makes a good art game? Obviously Gone Home would be this kind of 2deep4u nonsense art, but are there any games that could be called art in the same way that a play or a painting could?
This is where I lack knowledge to continue.

Does anyone know of any existing games which could be called art?
>>
I know where you wanna go, OP, no, vidya aren't art, and it wouldn't be posting BAD real art that you will make a point for your argument.

Written art is in books, not in comics.
Sculpting art is in sculptures, not in action figures.
Visual art is in painting, not in videogames.

Pretentious self-proclaimed artist who want to make art with garbage, feces and other (s)craps are people like you, who lacks philosophical thinking and visual taste, and don't want to study to develop the first or the second.
This may sound like an insult, but really isn't, believe me, OP, everyone can understand and create great things, so you.
>>
>>268687226
But why not buy actually cool things like kinetic sculptures or expensive cars or a dragon's horde of jewelry? Why buy something that is only conceptually cool?
>>
>>268680019
>implying these are not the 3 balls required to perform the malicious ritual of the fearsome and evil chaos dunk, forever sealed in holy glass, so only the hero who has proven his courage and wisdom can attain their powers to defeat the monstarz
>>
>>268687307
>The issue here is, what makes an amalgamation of art a piece of art itself?
It may make it easier for you to understand by thinking of a piece of art (e.g a movie) as an amalgamation of crafts. The movie as a whole is the art, not just the story. The parts make up the whole piece.
>>
>>268687307

Journey from a visual standpoint.

WarioLand 4 from a game design standpoint.

Hotline Miami as an edgy, social commentary kind of art.

Gone Home as "are we art yet?" kind of art.
>>
What if the balls are signed by famous players?
>>
>>268687307
All games are art. They have art direction. There is a position called 'Art director'. As long as it contains human expression that is conveyed to the viewer, successful or not, it is art.
>>
>>268687574
they are not
>>
>you will never build a $15 million statue of Cloud Strife conjuring a jizz tornado
>>
>>268687468
So you can boast your ego and make fools of other people.
>>
The longer I look at it the more this thing is growing on me. Is this what it feels like to be enlightened?
>>
>>268687557
Wario Land 4 felt worse than Wario Land 1 and 2 though

2>1>3>4

inb4 you havent even played visualboy wario lmao
>>
>>268684549
>>268680019
I see a triple slam.
>>
>>268687475
I will totally accept that over all the horse shit in the OP
>>
>>268687636
>All games are art. They have art direction. There is a position called 'Art director'.
That is a colloquial use of the word "art" wherein the meaning more closely resembles the word "craft".

>As long as it contains human expression that is conveyed to the viewer, successful or not, it is art.
See:
>>268682804

Video games can be/are art, but not for the reasons you provided.
>>
>>268687574
It cheapens the art with crass commercialism.

So it's somehow worth 20 times as much because it's even deeper and has more metaphors now.
>>
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>>268687740

>it just won't feel right on GBA
>>
>>268685163
I needed that, thanks
>>
>>268684936
>>268685151
And I think you're both dumb faggots trying way too hard to sound intellectual and reading way more into Hatred than is really there.

It's nothing more than darker, edgier, more angsty "your mom hates Dark Space 2" levels of high school fanservice. There is no commentary here, "subversive" or otherwise.

Dumb high school kids spend money on dumb edgy things. Publishers have realized this for decades.
>>
>>268687178
Let me rephrase it, then:
"It's plain dumb deing willing to pay hundreds of thousands of dollars for three basket balls floating in an aquarium."
It adds nothing to the "art" debate, but goddammit these thing piss me off.
>>
>>268687652
One of my friends in highschool had a book with that in it. That was a weird experience for a bunch of 14 year olds.
>>
>>268685853
Are youtube poops... pornography?
>>
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>>268684880
I once went to an O'Keeffe showing for an art class. Her older art isn't my favorite but I respect the technical ability and can get a partial grasp on thought process, and usage of color. Then I saw the posted picture. This is an O'Keeffe from later in her life. This isn't art, this is two-thirds of a division symbol. No meaning, just pseudo-artistic nonsense.
>>
>>268687556
So what makes some movies stand out in the same way stuff like the Mona Lisa stands out over some random guy painting in his free time?
You can't quantify the quality of movies as a whole, so is it just based on whether enough people happen to agree that it's high art? What makes them think that it's high art? What specific qualities of a movie like, I don't know, Fight Club, makes it more artsy than less iconic films?
>>
>>268687948
>It's nothing more than darker, edgier, more angsty "your mom hates Dark Space 2" levels of high school fanservice. There is no commentary here, "subversive" or otherwise.
Reread our posts. That is what we were saying.

Once again, my implication was that the creators would like to think of themselves as being subversive, when really they aren't.
>>
>>268683373
If you're looking at what the piece means to you, instead of what it meant to the artist, then aren't you denying the meaning of said piece? After all, the artist's intent is the reason behind the existance of of art, ignoring it would be equal to ignoring the piece itself since you aren't looking at it the way it's supposed to be looked at.
Unless part of the meaning behind a piece is for it to be looked at in different ways.
>>
>>268687307
MGS2
Shadow of the Colossus
BioShock

They actually make use of the contstraints of the medium to savagely fuck with the player and make a statement, for all three of those it basically amounts to "don't just blindly do what you're told and think for yourself"
>>
>>268687652
fuck man I spent all this time trying to get good pictures of lonesome cowboy and hiropon and you beat me to it. ah well, here's hiropon which sold for $427,500
>>
>>268688068

You don't understand. Its clearly depicting a sunset, except the sun is black. It represents the ever diminishing joy and life in our society as the corporatizationg of our culture continues to encroach upon all that we value as beautiful.
>>
>>268680019

modern art is literally just a money laundering scheme. there is no other reasonable explanation
>>
>>268688118
>my implication was that the creators would like to think of themselves as being subversive, when really they aren't.
I don't even think they believe that. It's all marketing bullshit and it's wroking great.
>>
>>268687709
The basketballs are the only coloured objects in the photograph, so your eyes are naturally drawn to them. Each one is almost perfectly aligned with the others. There are a lot of straight lines and quadrilateral shapes.
It's a very easy image to look at, with enough oddities to keep it engaging. Why basketballs? Why are they in water? Why is the basketball on the right a different colour and brand to the others? What does it mean?
Modern art requires more study into advertising than artistic technique nowadays.
>>
>>268688338
Right. That's why I also said that they might "be lying entirely." (Because they have stated that they're trying to make a commentary, but it does seem more like just trying to be shocking.)
>>
>>268688118
And I disagree with your implication. I don't think the creators had any such thoughts, despite the "it must have been 2deep4u cause the outrage" bullshit their CEO was spouting.

At this point I guess we just have to sit back and wait to see if someone shoots up a mall, school, etc. and makes the claim that the game influenced their killing spree.
>>
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>>268687652
>you will never get to watch the reactions of artshow patrons
>>
>>268688068
NO SKILL
BLUE ONLY
FINE ART DESTINATION
>>
>>268680019
>high art
>Another term for pandering to an echo chamber audience who 'already gets it'
>exclusionary tactic meant to separate those 'who don't get it' and have common sense

Fucking art.
>>
>>268688474
I'm guessing you didn't see the post that I made right before you did, but assume that it's also for you, because it applies to what you said.

>>268688428
>>
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>>268688326
If only I could be so grossly incandescent.
>>
>>268688667
No, I saw your backpedaling.
>>
>>268688495
>That wall of druids in the back
>>
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I can kind of respect "thoughtful" art when it's done concisely, and doesn't have to be explained to everyone who sees it due to its vagueness.
This one comes to mind. Its meaning is simple easy to get, and I find humor in the implications. But OP's pic requires a fucking paragraph of explanation from the artist himself and even then it's open to interpretation.
>>
I find it ironic that OP is lamenting the "art people" while, at the same time, posturing as an art person.

No one on this board -- or on this planet, actually -- is the arbiter of what constitutes art. The DUMBEST thinking that has become popular is to equate art with good [I like it; therefore, it's art].

High-art, low-art; good art, bad art -- it's ALL art.
>>
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>>268688525
>>
My favourite kind of art is the kind that can also be used for practical purposes. Kind of like how I use an old envelope that a birthday card came in as a coaster for several years now.
>>
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>artists should be meat photocameras
You'ree no different than grafics kiddies.
>>
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Art is for artists. You can take literally anything you encounter and call it art if you analyze and think about it, and I do mean anything.

Most "artists" that try for a deeper meaning tend to have deep rooted problems and are just excerting themselves, there was a time when people did that they would just be locked up, now its fucking enabled and applauded.
>>
>>268688717
I'm just giving them more of a chance. They're probably lying, but I'm not going to claim that I can read their minds.
>>
Good thing that will never happen because vidya is a consumer driven industry. Three floating basketballs just wouldn't sell no matter how hard they got shilled, just like Gone Homo didn't sell for shit either.

The much bigger actual threat that is already here is the hollywoodisation of videogames. What that means of course is dumbing down and mainstreaming titles so they have more mass appeal and sell better.

Every game trying to be COD or Skyrim is what is killing vidya. Questmarkers, regenerating health and shooting galleries is what I'm really worried about. Of course this faggot shit and artsy fartsy hipster crap is disconcerning but it's not really a threat because it will never generate enough money to be crammed down our throats.

Shitty meachanics and simplified gameplay on the other hand are already here and wrecking house.
>>
>>268689059
>>
>>268686161
sheeeeit.
>>
>>268689258
Good luck with everything
>>
>>268689615
Luck has nothing to do with it.
>>
>>268689725
Good random chance with everything
>>
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>>268689725
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>>268689783
Random chance doesn't exist
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>>268680019
I see three starting pokemon in oak's lab in a gen 1 game,
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>>268686221
Grown Ups 2 was a box office hit.

Dumb "fun" makes a lot of money.
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>>268689783
>he thinks random chance actually exists
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>>268681041
>I've never even coded a hello world in C yet I make a lot of assumptions about making videogames!
you're so dumb it hurts
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>>268689916
Yeah that's right

I look forward to having this conversation again the next time the universe swings around to this point
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>>268690061
Hopefully you'll cut back on the pseudo-intellectual mental masturbation and backpedaling when we get there.
>>
>>268685163
EmptyHero, you are going overboard with shit, it's not even satire at this point.
>>
>>268690000
> What is the position of an electron
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>>268680019

High art is art put together very well. When it comes to games, that means game mechanics that actually aren't glitched to hell and back, which is usually most indie games. Bonus when emergent gameplay is found.
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>>268689002
So why the fuck was anyone burning books when we have shit like this around.

If neo-hitler wants a crystalnacht specifcally for postmodernists I'll turn a blind eye.
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>>268680019
if some idiot were to buy that, how would they ship it without disturbing the balls?
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>>268690201
I only physically masturbate when I'm on 4chan
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>>268690582
Okay.
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>>268690582
>Not mentally masturbating like a good female
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>>268689916
>Random chance doesn't exist
oh boy I wish we had this conversation irl

now it wouldn't matter what I said, linked, showed you'd just post a tips fedora pic and be done with it so I won't even bother

but so you know you are dumb as hell for saying something like that
>>
>>268686613
>Free
I don't know about you, but where I live, paint is expensive as fuck.
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>>268690883
>responding to your own posts
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>>268685153

4'33" is preformed every night when the theater is closed.
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>>268686613
>graffiti
>anonymous

It's the exact opposite. It's all about writing your name and your crew's name all over town for fame.
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>>268686951
h-he's painting with his dick
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>>268680019
>Someone makes a thread claiming something horrible is gonna happen to videogames
>Blames something /v/ doesn't like (Women, art, normal people)
>Couple hundred shitty posts where the thread echo chambers about how much they don't like the thing that is "threatening to destroy" videogames
>thread 404s
>A new one is made
>the cycle of shitposting and irrational hate continues

I need to get out of here
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>>268681529
>Exile
>not Riven
>>
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>>268681343
Unfortunately I had to study Art History in college and I can tell you that this isn't true. Even dating back to the Rennaissance and earlier, artists have always just been about 1-upping each other and deconstructing "trends." Monet shat out this fucking abortion as a critique of realism/formalism in art and was vindicated by history for it. Nobody know what art is or what it's supposed to be.
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>>268691335
Yes, you do
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>>268685674
>>268685961
>>268681601
My brain is constantly looking for and finding bizarre-ass pseudo-philosophical metaphors like this. I see them everywhere, even when, logically, they probably don't actually exist. Sometimes I cry when I find a particularly good one. I think I might be retarded or something.

Am I one tool shed away from being a millionaire?
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>>268691335

Well "normal people" (casuals) and "art" (pretentious style over substance game design) are ruining video games.

Women aren't, that's just /v/'s bitterness.
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>>268681893

10/10
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>>268691951
It's really not even that big of a deal, though. You'd think we were going through another vidya crash by the way people on here talk about it.

It just goes to show how little the average people who post here get outside. None of this stuff really affects anyone outside of /v/
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>>268683150
The autofellatio sculpture is symbolic of people like the anon who made the dragon
The artist thinks people like the anon are just showing off their practical skills in being able to make woooow cool dragons, which he equates to just wanking on your face
>>
>>268691246
>someone where I live has done graffitti
>literally put it on every fucking corner
>it looks like shit
>its absolutely everywhere, often on the same wall
>spraying over other peoples actually good mural work
>later find out it was some 16 year old faggot
>a guy whos house he sprayed on had caught and sprayed all the cans in his face and beat the shit out of him
I see why people dont like graffitti, its fucking retards like that. He tried to draw on the guys front window for fuck sake.
>>
>>268684236
All art is art, even modern art. If there's a shitty piece of art, we're allowed to call it shit.

The same applies to video games.
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>>268680019
Is this completely incased? What if the water dries up. Does the artist need to be hired to refill it? Can anyone just refill it? Does it have to be Evian?
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>>268691593

>Matisse
>>
>Intent of the artist is trivial in art.
I disagree intensely and would argue that the intent of the artist is an integral part of the work itself.
>>
>man creates "muh art game"
>"muh highly respected work"
>"m...masterpiece"

>gets pirated by some fuck on /v/, played for 10 minutes, and immediately thrown into the recycle bin
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>>268680019
from the thumbnail it seemet a container with 2 orgasm faces and a basketball
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>>268680019
I have no doubt that what you fear will become reality. It's already the case in painting, literature, movies, etc., after all. But what you're forgetting is that, side by side with the indie movies about gay cowboys eating pudding, there's also the blockbuster Hollywood stuff, the bigger productions, the smaller productions, the good "alternative" movies, and everything in between. There's room for all of it.

Just because there's a lot of shit, doesn't mean there's only shit. I, for one, would welcome these "high art video games" - because it's a chance for all these idiots to fuck off to their own corner, and leave the real video games to those of use who enjoy them for what they are. High art is just the "best" stuff out there - which itself is a really flimsy definition, I just haven't found a better one. The stuff that actually influence culture. That holds true even for video games; the best ones, those that go down as masterpieces, are what I could consider high art in this field. And, to me, it's not just about the visuals, the music, the writing, etc., but also about the gameplay. Tetris, just because of the gameplay, is art to me. It sure as fuck has me more impressed that white canvas - fucking monochrome painting is a joke for most of it.

So let these dicks stroke each other by themselves. I'll be over here, playing the games I enjoy.
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Itt: Low brow plebians
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>>268693364
"flesh" really is a gross word
>>
suddenly wishing I saved those pics of the circle of guys completely naked on their hands and knees in a circle licking each others assholes

I think there was a woman or two in the group but for the most part it was just hairy men licking each others assholes with a huge crowd watching
>>
>>268693506
It sounds like the sound that it makes when you remove it.
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>>268692808

>that gif

I want it.
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>>268693723
Here you go
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>>268693918
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>>268694007

As soon I saw this thread this is what I thought of.
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>>268680019
>Video games are art. Every single video game, by definition, would be considered art.
That is about as a false statement as false statements can ever go, dude. Not considering the irony of complaining about the state of high art while continuously pushing the same flawed logic that caused the crisis of art in the first place. If you dislike the idea of three fucking balls in an aquarium being valued, then why don't you actually reject the idea of artistic relativism in the first place?

>What do you think of games as art?
It's a possibility, but there is a deeper problem with the general idea of what art is and is supposed to be, what value and what role should it have. Talking about games that could be possibly considered as art, we need to first sort out the question of what art is.
There are already some games that I'd argue are works of high art already, though there is just a few of them, most of them made by the same company.

>What's high art to you?
A mirror of the social values and a very valuable asset in theory - meaningless and antagonizing in the current social state and under the current art theories.
Art is - and I cannot stress this out more - functionally a evaluative term. It's an umbrella term for objects that represent some form of exceptional socially identified value(s). Be it mastery craft, rarity of the materials, didactic or symbolic representation of a valued message or sentiment or any of the many other possible values a society might want to praise and represent.
Art robbed of such functional role, denied it's evaluative purpose, leads to what OP shows.

It should not be difficult to figure out how games can potentially play into all of this.
>>
>>268680485
11/10
>>
>>268693951
Its yours my friend!
>>
>>268694831
As long as you have enough rubies.
>>
Whenever I see people talk about stuff like this, it reminds me of an experience at an Art Museum
>Me and my family are going to the next exhibit on thAt floor
>We then see a man take off his hat and put it on the floor
>He just walks away
>Suddenly people crowd around the hat, discussing what it could mean, trying to take pictures of it, and the lime
>The man from earlier comes back, picks up his hat, and just leaves
>This whole time I'm holding back laughter
I learned a lot about art that day
>>
>>268681780
how's that NOMONEY working out for you
>>
>>268680019
Actually I thought that it was some kind of test to make sure the basketballs where in regulation. I'm an idiot, I know.
>>
See, here's the difference between an insane person (an artsy indie dev) and a sane person (a typical person who enjoys video games).

The insane person will look at this aquarium with the three basketballs and start rambling on about what it could mean about human nature.

The sane person will take one look at it then go get three friends and say 'Hey guys, wanna take one of those balls and start a game of 2-on-2? We can use the other two balls as spares and use the water to keep ourselves hydrated.'
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>>268696128

No, that would be practical and make sense.

That's not art.
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>>268695798
>friend goes to art uni
>go to the end of year exhibition with him
>one of the divider walls is blank where the rest have a bunch of work hanging of them, just has a name tag on it
>fuck loads of people gathered around talking and pointing at it
>about 30 minutes later some guy comes bumbling through and starts pinning his work on the board
>he was just late to the show
>everyone shuffles away awkwardly
>>
>>268690050
>he hasn't heard of tampon run and flappy bird

literally what that guy was describing has happened en-masse
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>>268696336
*tips girlfriend*
>>
I don't want video games to be high art. I want them to be the lowest of low art. I want games that are the equivalent of lesbian prison porn.
>>
>Want to be a author and teach literature
>Forever shit on by friends and STEM major for not doing something practical

Being a /lit/fag is pain
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>>268696336
>using water to stay hydrated

I sense that you're not a player
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>>268696963

There is no 'high' or 'low' art. All of that is just subjective hogwash.

People invented the term 'high art' to try and make themselves feel more important.

Art is just art.
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>>268697082

Hey man, you gotta work with what you're given. If the tank was filled with Mountain Dew Throwback then things would be more ideal, but it's just water.
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>>268697168
ok but I still want a game with a lesbian shower scene
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>>268685853
>ytp
>deep

No I like them because it's like watching some retard get high on meth and then press fast forward and rewind a million times
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>>268697342

Play Danganronpa 2
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>>268686613
>Grafitti can legitimate art
Spray painting on someone else's property isnt art, its vandalism you fucking criminal scum
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>>268697342

That already exists.
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>>268697612
How does spray painting hurt anyone?

Do you also condemn piracy?
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>>268697718

If I build a fence, it means I get to decide what it looks like.
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"art" is fucking stupid and games aren't art, they're games.
if a "game" is "art," it's not really a game. it's "art."
games can have art or "art" in them, but just because it has one of those two in it doesn't mean the whole thing is art or "art"

the only kind of art i like is shit that actually looks really nice and people actually put time and effort in to instead of just slapping paint at random places on a canvas for thirty seconds and selling it for a million dollars
>>
>>268680019
it's a biography of charle's barkley's life
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>>268692364
>Beat him up
Great.
Now he will have a victim complex over it.
Being oppressed by society and all.
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>>268680019
How observant!
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Art Student here

There are multiple types of art

The masters of art are able to do all of them.

For example, Ruebens was a master at baroque art and pioneered drawing human bodies. However, his skill pales in comparison to Picasso. He was able to break concepts down into their most basic form. Picasso could draw things with precision and realism, but he wanted to discover new ways to convey the same ideas with the least possible.

To imply that PPR or Picasso are bad artists because one of them does something you don't like is stupid.

What is stupid is that most modern artists do not have the basic foundation that would grant them access into becoming abstract. Case in point, Jason Pollock could paint landscapes and do forms of naturalism and realsim. But he got bored with it and went on to create new forms of abstract. Modern Abstract artists however don't develop the core.

To relate this to video games. Imagine if you had an indie dev that COULDN'T make a normal standard video game, and could only make their abstract stuff.

"I can draw anime but I can't draw normal, its my style"

THAT is the problem, not because people want artsy games.

Artsy abstract creativity + solid foundation in traditonal art + understanding of the masters = great artist
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>>268698164
>effort is admirable
Oh, so easy to see who's coming from the christianity influenced civilisation here.
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>>268698786
So, it can be summed up as "Learn the rules, then start breaking them. Otherwise people will notice you never knew the rules in the first place"?
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>>268680485
Fuck you guy ;_;
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>>268692340
That message in itself would be fine if the sculpture didn't look like shit.

The message means nothing if you can't actually apply yourself, it shows how little you actually care about that message no matter how 'profound' it is.
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>>268699903
Thanks, searched for the very same image.
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>>268697718
Ok, so I guess you don't mind if some 15 year old spray paints the word 'faggot' on the side of your house.

After all, it's art and you certainly sound like a huge faggot.

Maybe painting over it will teach you appreciation for other people's property. If not, hopefully you'll get the shit beat out of you.
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>>268700247
The lack of effort into that sculpture is exactly part of the message.

Message of "you suck poorly crafted dick".
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>>268680019
I see a wet ass three pointer
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>>268685853
I can now guarantee that you ARE, in fact, retarded.
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>>268683272
I love clarinets but that shit is horrible. Is that even music? There's a lot of silence and sudden noises.
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>>268700408
The lack of effort is symbolic of a lack of effort when someone elses effort isn't symbolic of actual effort, so he deserves to be ridiculed by someone elses lack of effort.

Sounds like the lazy have the high ground and anyone with a message instantly deserves to have it recognized whether or not he can actually create something that isn't an eye-sore.

I understand the message and it's a really shitty one.
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>>268700390
I don't care if it's art or not.

I said it doesn't hurt anyone. A crime without a victim.
So you're confirmed buyfag then?
Gotta support people selling you something that can be copied endlessly!
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>>268700831
>I said it doesn't hurt anyone.
Doesn't mean it isn't a crime.

Me coming into your house and repeatedly hitting your computer with a baseball bat doesn't cause you physical harm, but it's still breaking several laws.

Your argument is pathetic, but that's to be expected from the typical 12 year old that thinks graffiti is cool.
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>>268700816
So written or spoken message isn't deserving of acknowledgment because it doesn't have enough cool skyrim dragons and majestic landscapes in it?
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>>268688812
when everything is art, nothing is

your post is art

my post is art

the absence is a post is art

everything is art

nothing is art
>>
>>268700612
Offensive.
Just because basketball players are mostly PoCs doesn't give you right to throw wetback accusations around. It's rude and extremely toxic.
>>
>>268700982
I didn't even know what Graffiti is before this discussion started.
>repeatedly hitting your computer with a baseball bat doesn't cause you physical harm
It's not equivalent because computers are a limited resource. Videogames are not.
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>>268700831

>"Hurp durp vandalism is a victimless crime"
>"Derp piracy is a victimless crime"

You're either a teenager or just an idiot, but you're opinions are stupid. They aren't victimless crimes because they affect people's property and those people get to decide what's acceptable and what's not. Not you.
>>
>>268701076
Yes, exactly like that.

Is your little normie worldview shattered enough?
No, it never fucking is. You normalfags can delude yourself longer than your heart will beat.
>>
>>268701076
These are not words but pixels arranged in the form of words.
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>>268701314
How can something that's not tangible be property?

How can something that can be reproduced endlessly for no cost be property?
>>
I'm okay with some high art in gaming. For as many high art peices there are though there's always three times as much pop art, and our typical stuff would fall in to that category. So if crazy artists start contributing to the industry, whatever, that's cool. Maybe playing them will be fun in some way. There will still be just as much other stuff coming out and hidden gems to catch up on.
>>
>>268701037
Writing and speaking is determined by how eloquent the message is.

It's why Hitler got more support than he would have if he would have walked up to a podium and said something like "YEAH MAN LETS KILL SOME JEWS, GERMANY 1935 LETS GO, WOOOOOO GERMANY!" instead of being an excellent orator.
>>
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>>268680019

that is fucking beautiful

all these shitters that can't understand art
>>
>OP is proud to be a pleb
>>
>>268701361
what? i dont understand what you're trying to say?
>>
>>268701186
Videogames cost time and money to produce. Neither of those things are infinite within a person's life.
>>
>>268680858
Only if you convince people with expendable amounts of cash in that range.

Art being popular or worth a lot all depends on who likes it, when they liked it, how much power and influence they have, and who they told. It has nothing to do with the art itself.

Fags will buy literal coiled pieces of shit if you convinced them it will somehow make them happy, boost their ego, or make them appear more "cultured"
>>
>>268701076
>>268701450
Shitposts are, in fact, the HIGHEST form of art, as they often elicit the highest reactions from the people that consume them.
>>
>>268699903
I don't understand why this picture keeps getting posted as an argument against modern art. The guy is clearly a huge autist who probably goes off to call anything he doesn't understand pretentious.
You know the kind of autismal fuck that can't understand jokes or concepts beyond the basic mechanical functions of the universe.

For fucks sake he went to a conceptual sculptry class thinking he could make his epic dragons all day and be respected for it? He can make all the dragons he wants but if they are just decoration
they are worth literally nothing for the class he took.
>>
The rise of 2deep4u indie movies hasn't stopped people from making good mainstream movies, so I don't see how it would be any different with games.

Besides, no one's going to make an AAA version of Gone Home or whatever because people with enough money to finance AAA games generally aren't that stupid. There might be more indie platformers with "deep" stories about cis privilege or whatever, but those devs wouldn't have made anything good anyway, so nothing of value will be lost.
>>
>>268701186
>I didn't even know what Graffiti is before this discussion started.
Good for you. Stop trying to argue that vandalizing someone else's property is art rather than just crime committed by retarded adolescents like yourself then.
>It's not equivalent because computers are a limited resource
Both the computer and that fence children like you ruined with scribbles take time and resources to assemble, you stupid little shit.
>>
but i thought basketball-americans couldn't swim
>>
>>268701476
endlessly reproducing something at no cost can damage the worth of ones property
>>
What is the F A ∞ of video games?
>>
>>268701736
Holy shit, a shill!
>>
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>>268701037
This sculpture would have a better place as something written or spoken. tell me what you want to say, that's why we have words.

The dragon doesn't look like shit, so I want to see more of it, spectacle isn't all there is to art but it helps to not look like shit. having pieces we generally like the look helps us understand what we find most attractive in aesthetics.

Giving us a piece that's supposed to say something the artist could have wrote down is basically masturbating to how well you think you understand symbolism.
>>
>>268701871
the basketballs represent their floating, bloated bodies
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>>268701793
Not that guy but holy shit, are you a bitter one.
>>
>>268701739
Or draw their shitty neon colored furry OCs fuck eachother!
>>
>>268701782
>I don't understand why this picture keeps getting posted as an argument against modern art.
Because it's a great example of THE argument against modern "art."

Scraping together garbage, gluing it together to form a circle and declaring it represents humanity is not art.

Art is something that is created with imagination and skill and that is beautiful or that expresses important ideas or feelings.

Modern art takes neither imagination, nor skill, is never beautiful and just because someone says their crudely represented clay penis is an expression of humankind's kindness doesn't make it true.
>>
>>268701476

Stop with your fucking idiotic "piracy hurts no one" bullshit.

Cost to produce game: $10 million
Cost to replicated game: $0.01
Cost to buy game: $60

Do you see how the cost to replicate doesn't mean anything? There is an enormous fixed cost that is recouped by selling millions of copies. When people decide to acquire a game without paying, they cut into the creator's ability to recoup the $10 million. Yes, there's a chance a pirate "wouldn't have bought it anyway", but there are also a lot of people who are interested in a game and just have to choose between paying $60 or nothing. And nothing is obviously preferable.

You are a teenager, aren't you?
>>
>>268702013
dont make fun of cowboy bebop faggot
>>
>>268701787
>The rise of 2deep4u indie movies hasn't stopped people from making good mainstream movies
This is wrong, but not for the reasons you stated.

Indies are taking off because there are less mainstream releases, which could get me in to a four paragraph explanation of the economics which drives the mainstream.

Less revenue at the theatres over time = less releases per year, however
video on demand/streaming/rentals/bluray has gone up up up over the years, so that makes up for the producing side of films, but not for the physical theatres

That's why here, in 2014, we only have a few hundred (200-300 max) per year, whereas around the millenium, there were almost 1.3 to 1.8x the amount of movies released per year.
>>
Maybe I should tape a piece of canvas to the wall and punch the fucking shit out of it until my knuckles break and bleed all over it, then sell it and say that I was making a statement against modern art.
>>
>>268701787
What the fuck.
>>
>>268702165
>muh deer!
Lovin ure :D
>>
>>268701973
I'm a shill for wanting my favorite devs to make more videogames and giving them money to do so? By all means, explain capitalism to me.
>>
>>268701782

I do agree that making a dragon isn't exactly art. But you can tell the clay penis man's creator was high on his own self-importance and edginess.
>>
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>>268702013
>>
>>268701782
There's one like him in every art class. They want to be craftsman, which is admirable, but unfortunately there's no college classes for it
>>
>>268702090
>people justifying ruining other people's property using a meaningless word
Why wouldn't I be mad as fuck
>>
>>268702213
Good goy!
>>
>>268702165
>all that

You have absolutely no idea of what you are talking about.

You have no idea how constructed your view of beauty is, like the current view of beauty in modern art is a construction. Beauty doesn't exist as a constant and is to be challenged at all time.
>>
>>268702165
You don't get to just decide that though
>>
>>268702265
That would be like making a statement against Holocaust by gassing more jews.
>>
>>268702505

*eye roll*
Oh for fuck's sake.

>"Hurp durp paying for things created by people means you're doing what the jew merchant says"

You're an idiot.
>>
>>268702537
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/art

Beauty is a constant thing.
>is to be challenged
You can scream at the top of your lungs that fat people are attractive, no one but fetishistic chubby chasers will EVER agree with you.
>>268702538
I didn't decide that.
>>
>>268702537
>You have no idea how constructed your view of beauty is, like the current view of beauty in modern art is a construction.
That's exactly what plebs does, however.
Be a massive fucking tool.

Like, holy shit people, stop making me think there are actually worse people than me in this world.
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>>268702013
>The Great Gatsby
>Tree of Life
>Boyhood
>Evangelion
>Naruto
>Gone Homo
>Minecraft
>Last of Us
>Bioshock
>two fucking Beatles albums
>David Bowie
>Walking Dead
>>
>>268702780
Based lemming.
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>>268702265
Then fucking do it.

I'm dead serious. Do it.

This is what a lot of people pertinently and systematically do not get.
They say 'oh i could have done that!'.
But that's the thing, they didn't. They did not fucking do it.

I'm an artfag myself and i'm constantly making fun of modern art in my atelier with the mates. When i have an idea like you had with the canvas, however retarded or un-artsy it is, i actually fucking do it.
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>>268702613
That's the kind of statement I can get behind.
>>268702428
>>268701782
>For fucks sake he went to a conceptual sculptry class thinking he could make his epic dragons all day and be respected for it
He does deserve respect because he is an excellent sculptor. The person who he's raging at deserved to have that piece of shit thrown into the garbage can and laughed out of the exhibit because he is neither a sculptor nor worthy of respect.
>>
>>268702780
>>268702780
Read that back and think about the fact you presented that as an argument against art
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>>268702304
It's called high art, Anon.
>4′33″ (pronounced "Four minutes, thirty-three seconds" or just "Four thirty-three"[1]) is a three-movement composition[2][3] by American experimental composer John Cage (1912–1992). It was composed in 1952, for any instrument or combination of instruments, and the score instructs the performer(s) not to play their instrument(s) during the entire duration of the piece throughout the three movements.
>>
>>268681237
>It's related to human life because air.

Art is gay.
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>>268703004
No, my argument against modern art was in the post before that. Maybe you should learn to read.
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>>268702949
what makes you think he's an excellent sculptor?
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>>268702797
what are you even on about mate.
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>>268702949
>That's the kind of statement I can get behind.
You've got to have IQ in double digits.
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>>268702538
Yes I do. The consumer decides if the work is important. If he does, he buys it.

The best works of art got made because the artists wanted some fucking money.

The idea that artists don't owe you shit is true. Just as I don't owe you my fucking money and attention at that point. You and your bullshit can now degenerate themselves to death and hopefully wallow in poverty because just as I am apparently not entitled to a good product you are not entitled to fucking money because you feel like your work is important and its flaws acceptable but nobody with money does.

And something needs to pay off the debt you got from that worthless liberal arts degree you acquired. You have zero skill but PLENTY of bullshit to go around.

Standards have degenerated to the point where, yes, ANYTHING can be classified as art - which means it went from meaning something to now meaning absolutely nothing.
>>
All I can gather from this thread is that art is a meaningless term and retards who form a crude phallus in clay think they deserve the same level of recognition as someone who can turn a tree into a realistic looking dragon.

Toppest of keks all around.
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>>268703106
No, your ridiculous metaphor is what I'm referring to. Why do you think that isn't an argument against modern art?
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>>268680019
Games aren't usually art. They're fun. Maybe sometimes these things overlap. But any true gamer could care less about when the art part occurs.

Also definitely OP is definitely art by a nigger/nigger lover.
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>>268703161
>liking jews
>>268703147
I'm assuming you're correct about his dragons being epic in appearance. If not, I'll retract my statement.
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>>268702949
>he's an excellent sculptor

debatable

>he is neither a sculptor nor worthy of respect.

yeah okay, fuck off.
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>>268702949
>he is an excellent sculptor
No that you are easily swayed or anything...
>>
>>
>>268703264
>art in the past was admirable!
I really, really love this meme.
>>
I've met many people from the art scene, from curators to artists to photographers and the whole art thing nowadays is just a massive wank fest for pretentious rich people. It's all about which artist can create the weirdest shit and how much money you are willing to pay for it. Oh, there are also the non buyers who just try to pretend to be smarter than anyone by finding a fucking meaning beneath everything. "Oh, this represents the transience in the human soul," they will say, looking at a crude sculpture of a guy jacking off.
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>>268703297
I didn't make a metaphor, mongoloid. What specifically are you referring to.
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>>268703289
>retards who form a crude phallus in clay think they deserve the same level of recognition as someone who can turn a tree into a realistic looking dragon
Exactly.
They are both worthless abortions.
Your le epic skirem dragons can fuck right off.
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>>268680019
>video games aren't hard to make
Horseshit
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>>268680019
I thought for a second that he managed to make them float in the exact middle of a full tank, which would be kinda impressive in itself
but nope
he just filled halfway
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>>268703289
>My epic WoW-inspired decorative dragon is much much cooler than that other shit i find complicated and challenging.

Are you actually an edgy 14-year old? Cause that whats you sound like.
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>>268703417
>yeah okay, fuck off.
>I MADE A CLAY PENIS LOL RESPECT ME
Into the trash you go.
>>
>>268703617
I'm guessing from 'maybe you should learn to read' and 'mongoloid' that you're 14-15 or baiting so I'm gonna not reply to you anymore m8
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so what's stopping some Anon to going to some high end art gallery and bullshiting his Loss.jpg edits as art

it would probably be better than 90% of modern "art"
>>
Do you see this? This is a shitty fucking video game that people will pay up to $40,000 for.

Stop trying to understand idiots who are obsessed with stupid shit, of course it doesn't make sense to you, you don't care.
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>>268703409
imo, if it tells a story, it's art. This includes many games but not all.

But if you are playing games to experience art, you are doing it wrong. Games are meant to be fun, so play them for fun. It's like the tomato - fruit salad analogy
>>
>>268680019

>This is estimated to be worth between $400,000 and $600,000 dollars.

What in actual fuck. I can understand paying for paintings or real sculptures... but... What the fuck.
>>
>>268703657
>>268703725
>muh skyrim
>muh wow
>implying anyone can make a (supposedly since we cant see the whole thing) amazing sculpture of an animal out of a tree
Go be asshurt somewhere else,clay penis guy.
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You know what I love about these kind of discussions the most?

How hard normalfags whine about being opressed when they're the oppressing party themselves.
They're honestly not aware of it!
>>
>>268702165

Not all modern art (really it's postmodern art) is shit.

But I agree, the simple act of challenging the status quo does not make something good art. In my opinion, something has to require effort and really be something not just any one else could have made. Blank canvases are bullshit, shoe boxes filled with leaves are bullshit. That game where you "play as a mountain" sounds like bullshit.

But Hatred...if it turned out to have a message about how all major video games are filled with violence, they just hide it behind a thin layer of justification, could be art. It requires effort to make functional and fun game that repulses people with it's premise, then turns around and says "but, you play GTA and CoD". Honestly, that would be really cool. I know it won't happen, but that's the kind of indie "art" game I'd be totally okay with.
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>>268703858
You need to make decent stuff for several years until you can get away with retarded shit like OP.
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>>268703743
this is what you are saying:

>this thing i think is cool is worthy of respect.

>this other thing i don't find cool is not worthy of respect.

tell me you are not being an epic edgelord right now.
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>>268703264
So given that some people find it worthy of attention (the 'consumers' as you put it, you ol' romantic you) you don't have the right to say it isn't art. Why does it make you so angry if it doesn't concern you in any way?
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>>268703743
>>I MADE A CLAY PENIS LOL RESPECT ME
Nice assumption, friend.
>>268703873
>>268703929
>muh protons neutrons and electrons
>>
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>>268680019
>the emperor's new clothes: modern edition
>>
>>268701739
>Fags will buy literal coiled pieces of shit

funfact: this actually happened

source:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artist's_Shit
>>
>>268703941
How about actually adressing the accusation of you being mad at modern art because it challenges your established views and values you friend.
>>
>>268703858
Modern art is 1% drawing talent of a five year old and 99% on-the-spot bullshitting to retarded rich people about what your 'magnificent piece of art' stands for.
>>
>>268703941
>>implying anyone can make a (supposedly since we cant see the whole thing) amazing sculpture of an animal out of a tree
No, not everyone can make it.
Why does it matter? Explain it to me like you would to a 5 year old. Go on, I'm listening.
>>
I wish I was an "artist", that'd be some piss easy cash.
>>
>>268703943
It's absolutely hilarious.

The bias is unbelievably collosal.
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>>268703929
You could make your own exact rendition with $40 and a ride to walmart, why would you pay someone 6 figures for that?

Even if you're rich, you could just hire some dumb spic to do it for closer to $50 probably.
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>>268704215
T
H
E
N

DO

IT

YOU

F
U
C
K
>>
>>268680019
How did they make them float so evenly spaced apart?

That's the real art.
>>
>>268704215
Then try it, friend. See how easily the money comes pouring in.

No really, do it. I double fucking dare you.
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>>268704070
Yes, the retarded.

Thank you for reminding me that there will always be stupid people on this planet.
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>>268704387
>it's useful so it's art
The word you're looking for is engineering.
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>>268703289
The hall of the bulls is art
The Pyramids of Giza is art
Rueben's Lion Hunt is art
Grant Wood's Pearson Weem's fable is art
Duchamp's fountain is art
Shadman makes art

DEAL WITH IT
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>>268703873
>Buckleyism is the next era of art

yes please
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>>268704215
>this fucking statement again

FUCKING DO IT THEN YOU TOOL WHY ARE YOU STILL WAITING THERES MAD CASH THERE DOG
>>
>>268703858
so what's stopping some Anon to going to some high end art gallery and bullshiting his Loss.jpg edits as art

Nothing

Why are you implying something is wrong with it?
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>>268704000
Uh no.
>this thing takes skill and talent and is worthy of the respect said skill and talent deserves

>this other thing looks like a five year old made it with playdoh, it deserves no respect and no response at all other than a show of disgust

is what most people are saying

Pic related: Actual art that requires skill and talent.
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>>268681237
>>
>>268704494
>"the masses have the last word"
>surprised when masses are dumb
I *tip* my *fedora* to you, sir.
>>
>>268704509
If it's wires or whatever, then it's engineering. But if it's a very long process that ends in a highly unstable state, then it's art.
>>
>>268704628
Okay dude, have a nice life.

I'm honestly happy for you that you're capable of living in a world devoid of meaning, metaphor or emotion for that matter.
>>
Jesus Christ, /v/ try to at least pretend you aren't all fucking brain damaged.

Jeff Koons is a shitty artist but when you say shit like modern art is shit when you have things like Duchamp's Étant donnés you look like the fucking retards every thinks you are.

I am fucking ashamed.
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>>268691593
>tfw i have a stylized version of that in my hallway

too bad realism is the dopest shit
>>
>>268704494
Stupid people make up a huge amount of the population, if you are not reminded of that at least every minute or so you are probably one of them
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>>268704527
>The hall of the bulls is art
Hard to tell due to degradation
>The Pyramids of Giza is art
Engineering.
>Rueben's Lion Hunt is art
Correct.
>Grant Wood's Pearson Weem's fable is art
Yes, but not terribly good art.
>Duchamp's fountain is art
Nope, toliet seats with writing on them are not art.
>Shadman makes art
What
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>>268704889
Oh no, the anon is ASHAMED!

I feel bad now :^(
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>>268680019

If the artist came out and said "actually I just chucked three basketballs in a fishtank and wondered how famous I'd become if I lied about it", would it still be art and would it still be considered "good", or would it become a con and be considered meaningless?

That's what I've never really understood about modern, abstract or whatever art. It rarely, if ever, seems to be about the piece itself. The actual "art" seems to be the explanation you come up with for it, and how many people you can convince with that explanation.
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>>268704828
I'm pretty happy that people like you would get laughed at if you walked up to people like the ones in my picture and tried to pretend whatever crude phallus you spent 5 minutes on with a swiss knife was art.
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>>268704894
>realism
>not wicked gay
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>>268703289
You're confusing art with craftsmanship, but whatever.

You're on /v/ it's not like you give a shit.
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>>268705120
Only if you need everything explained to you
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>>268704889
so how is that job you dont have?
>>