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Shigeru don't like filthy casuals.
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You are currently reading a thread in /v/ - Video Games

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Shigeru don't like filthy casuals.

http://www.computerandvideogames.com/475384/miyamoto-explains-nintendos-renewed-passion-for-the-core/
>>
Then why doesn't he stop making games for them
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>>260203305
DLC is hardcore now?
>>
"Only geeks and otakus want core games". Oh Nintendo you come crawling right back you fucking hypocritical idiots.
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>>260203458
because this just happened
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>>260203458
>Implying
I put about 30 hours on Mario 3d world versus 20 on hl2 + episodes 1&2.
>>
They come back as saviors for a mess they created.
Genius.
Pure genius.
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>>260203697
Well no shit, now they have money to burn of course they will.
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>>260203305

In other words:

>We just realized we can't cater to the casuals forever while smartphones shit on our Wii U while losing our core fanbase in the process, we'll go back to our old ways
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>>260203458
Your definition of casual is wrong. Casual gaming means playing a game once in a while or only playing while you have time to spare (so you wouldn't really set aside time in the day just to play video games). Casual gamers usually play smartphone games that are designed to kill time on your daily commute or whilst you're waiting for an appointment (so games like Angry Birds or Doodle Jump).

A core gamer is someone who actively enjoys video games and sets aside time in the day to just play video games. This is regardless of their skill level, it's simply how often they play video games.

Having said that, some modern Nintendo games are harder to fully complete compared to a lot of other modern games, although that's mainly because everyone else is making games easier nowadays rather than Nintendo deliberately making harder games.
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>>260204291

You definition of "time to spare" is a bit contrived my friend, I am by no means a casual but I gotta fucking work and pay the bills if I want to fucking play.
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>>260204493
Git gud at jobs
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>>260204493

What anon is trying to say is that a proper definition core, at least in the context Shigeru Miyamoto is using it here, is people who make video games an actual hobby.

But I'd also add that Miyamoto is probably also referring to the core Nintendo crowd.
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>>260204493
come on, you fucking know what he means, you don't pay for games being a casual, you just download them on your smartphone and never play them after trying once
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>>260204493
Get a better job that requires you to put in less hours and earn more.
Or are you a casual at real life too?
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>>260203305
I'm not sure he's talking shit about the kind of people who played Brain Training for months.

Sounds to be he feels more strongly about non-committed players. People who treat games as throwaway and breeze though them on easy just to see everything in it. Some of those people play CoD, some play Nintendogs.

I can get behind this. Genre shouldn't dictate how casual a game is, the attitude of the player should.
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>>260203305
>doesnt like filthy casuals
>nintendo as a whole is now heavily catering to otaku and their waifus see smash
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>>260204291
This.
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>>260205182

So what you're saying is we'll be getting Awakening 2: Electric Emburu with twice as many waifus?
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>>260204493
Miyamoto explains it a bit better in the article. Casual gamers are quite passive, in that they'll just play whatever the latest trend is and they'll just expect the entertainment to come to them automatically. Core gamers are more active, in that they'll actively seek out other games to play based on what they've liked about previous games they've enjoyed. They're also willing to put a bit more effort in gitting gud so that they can fully enjoy a game. Core gamers often discuss video games with other core gamers too (so pretty much everyone on /v/ is a core gamer). You'd rarely see people talking so passionately about Candy Crush.
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>>260203305
>"oy vey, the casuals have abandoned us! Our shovelware is selling like ass!"
>"what should we do!"
>"I know Shigerustein, why don't you pretend you like the hardcoretards?"
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>>260204161
You talking about the PlayStation?
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>>260204161

Keikaku wa suru subete yo okerudasai.
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>>260205367
No, he's saying that SMT x FE was quietly replaced with Persona x FE in order to create the ultimate waifu pandering simulator.
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>>260205430
A lot of people that brought the WiiU absolutely hated the Wii, so he does have a point.
I hated the Wii, i hated motion controls, i hated 90% of the entire Wii library, yet i love my WiiU.
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>>260204493
Casuals are those people who spend short amounts of time playing games to kill time while waiting to do something else.
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He knows that he can't get the same market he did with the released of the Wii, now he tries to get the core audience which will never work.
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>>260206189
do you realize how stupid what you just typed is?
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>>260203863
So you're saying you suck at M3DW?
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>>260206039

I'd enrage so fucking much.
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>>260206351
He is right though. Non-casual gaming requires hours of mental effort and deliberate practice.
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>>260205024

I consider myself a "core gamer" but I still loved the shit out of Nintendogs and Brain Age was fun.

Just because Shigeru is criticized non-committed players doesn't mean he's going to stop producing his trademark stuff, nor do I think he should since he produces a very distinct line of games with broad appeal and which are often well crafted, but I think Nintendo might begin to shift it's PR a little now that it's beginning to understand that the casuals it brought in with Wii Sports and shit aren't committed to Nintendo products like its core fanbase and simply go with the latest trends. That core fanbase probably includes JRPG fanatics, Zelda fanboys, and people who actually know who Miyamoto is to get excited about anything with his name on it.
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>>260203305
>nintendo

That is pretty much the definition of casual.
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>>260206351
But he's correct. How is it stupid?
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>>260206039

So video games are saved?
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>>260206432
Seconded
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>>260204246
>money to burn
More like no more money to earn, don't dilute yourself, if the Wii U had the success of the Wii in the casual audience Shiggy probably wouldn't be saying these things.
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FUCK YOU MODS. that was the best actual discussion thread in weeks. deleted at 150 posts or something. cunts.
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>>260206873
Casual =/= accessible
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>>260206873
Nintendo is a video game company, not the definition of a word.
Those are two entirely different things, anon.
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>>260203305

Good, let the casualfag scum waste their money on Kim Kardashian, CandyCrush, Mineycrafta, TLOU and other trite garbage.
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>>260206093
same. that waggle was really awful. even when it was done well, like SMG and MP3; it made my fucking hands and arms hurt like a bitch.
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>>260203305
Such hypocrisy.

It's fucking disgusting, at least Sony and M$ aren't hypocrites. They have this "mature shooters and edgy action games" schtick and they fucking stick with it to the end. Also, when you're buying one of their consoles you know what you're signing up for, they have DLC, they have paid online etc.

Nintendo? Iwata and Reggie were calling for a crusade against DLC up until a few months ago and look at them now. For all we know the WiiU might get its own version of PS+ before this gen is over.

Disgusting hypocrites. Hope they get all fired and Yamauchi's son shits out Mario games for android/iOS until the end of times.
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>>260207342
This is literal marketing.
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>>260206351
do you realize how stupid what you just typed is?
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>>260206873
toppel kekkan gurren laygan
>>
>Nintendo made games for casuals for the entire last decade
>most of these casuals don't even know what are a Wii U, so they are not getting the profit they expected
>Sony and Microsft however kept making games for every type of public, with a lot of hardcore games
>Nintendo: "w-we don't like casuals anymore g-guises! we will make games for true gamers, i swear!"

Just die already cunts.
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>>260207421
yeah fuck nintendo for changing their business decisions. They should still be making collectable card games!
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>>260207228
Nintendo does both.
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>>260207421
>Iwata and Reggie were calling for a crusade against DLC
I bet you're a faggot who saw someone post that image and took it at face value without looking into it. Neither of them said anything about DLC being a sin, they said that they shouldn't deliberately cut content from a game and sell it as DLC. They also said that if they do sell DLC, it should be worth it and the original game should be a complete package anyway.
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>>260207421

The difference between Sony DLC and Nintendo DLC is that Nintendo sell you whole game and merely updates with some special bonuses which enhance the experience but aren't necessary.

Sony will release a game, you beat it and then you realize you didn't get the true ending which you have 10.99 for. Sony deliberately cuts content, Nintendo doesn't.
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>>260207810
more like
>man our brand image and game quality has been seriously lacking because we're trying to reach a demographic that wants nothing to do with our products in the first place
>fuck those faggots lets make the games we want now

I see absolutely no problem with this. Everyone wins.
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>>260206965
This image real?
I've been telling people for ages that ALttP made Zelda easy and linear as fuck and the series has never really recovered from this huge misstep, but a lot of people don't seem to agree for some reason. I can only assume it's nostalgia.
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>>260208201
>Sony will release a game, you beat it and then you realize you didn't get the true ending which you have 10.99 for. Sony deliberately cuts content, Nintendo doesn't.
That would require Sony to be a games developer.
You're literally retarded.
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>>260203863
Man, is the Wii U drough that cruel?
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>>260203305
More like Miyamoto's trying to dodge a bullet after realizing that it was a mistake to casualize Nintendo the past 10 years.

You reap what you sow, I guess.

I just hope this means more good Nintendo games with higher difficulty and online standards.
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>>260208398

Gran Turismo, a series which turned fully into a DLC-based game, is a first party Sony license.
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>>260208384
ALttP is most likely the first zelda game most people have played. Realistically OoT is probably the first as far as most people 21 and younger are concerned with.

I'm 26 and I've never played zelda 1 or 2 despite owning a NES
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The Wii U is still a shit console.

This makes me like Miyamoto a little more, but it doesn't really change anything in the short-term.
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>>260208079
Fucking this.
It's amazing how many people think Nintendo was saying they were against all DLC and would never sell any.
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>>260208201
You are literally retarded, Gran Turismo 6 had a lot of free DLCs, like new cars, modes and events, and they were all free. How about Nintendo making a paid DLC for MK*, since they said before that they don't think it's right to charge for aditional content?

They are a bunch of hypocrits.
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>>260208384
Zelda 2 got a ton of shit for being very hard. Even the original Zelda was pretty cryptic, they had to give the American players a map telling them what to do for the first one or two dungeons. Nintendo have had to casualise their games if they wanted to do well in America (which is by far the most profitable country to sell video games in)
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shit console is still shit. nice damage control though
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Based Nintendo.
This has sold me on buying the next Nintendo console, my first console since the first XBox.
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>>260205024
I've spent more than 100 hours in brain age.
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>>260203305
>Shigeru doesn't like casuals
>Has literally never made or even tangentially worked on a project that wasn't 100% aimed at the casual market

It's pathetic that they are this desperate for an excuse for making shitty sales.
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>>260209002

They never said they were against DLC or additional content at all. They were against cutting content and not giving the consumer a complete experience, which is what a lot of games on PS3 did.

Most of Nintendo's DLC is bonus content that isn't even necessary. Only people who enjoyed the game and want more content buy it.
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>>260208709
My first Zelda game was Zelda 2.
My grandparents gave it to me for Christmas and I was like what the fuck is this shit for the first half of the time I owned it.

It was hard as balls, and there was no direction.
I gained a bit more appreciation for it once I played it more, but it was still one of those games that I had to go back to in my late teens, that shit was too hard for 8 year old me.
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>>260203458
Silly anon, fun games are for everyone.
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>>260207810
>Nintendo made games for casuals for the entire last decade

Nintendo made games for everyone while putting most of their advertising budget towards that one section they wanted to reel in, that is the more family games. But they never stopped making games for core gamers, not even with the Wii.

Sony and Microsoft just shat out whatever appealed to dudebros, hood rats and spics until the consoles became virtual clones of one another.

>>260209538

a casual gamer is someone who just plays something to kill time. The kinds of people who just play angry birds on their lunch break.

a core gamer is someone who takes a deep and abiding interest in video games as a hobby.

Miyamoto's games were always accessible for people who were regular gamers or new gamers alike.
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>>260207810
>Nintendo made games for casuals for the entire last decade
They also made plenty of games for non-casuals.
See:
>Sin and Punishment: Star Successor
>Punch-Out!!
>Wario Land: Shake It!
>Metroid Prime 2 and 3
>Pikmin 2
>Custom Robo
>Donkey Kong Country Returns
and so on
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>>260208425
No. Literally I finished a single playthrough in 30 hours because the game is huge. And I just beat all the levels. Not even 100% completion
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>>260209538
He directed Lost Levels and Zelda II, you fuck.
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>>260210168

The DS library had a shit load of games for non-casuals too.
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>>260205430
>still counting Melee to Brawl on a list that includes last gen to new gen
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>>260210783
Yeah, forgot to mention I deliberately left out handhelds.
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>>260209538
The latest Miyamoto game was pikmin 3. Far from casual.
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>>260210168
>Custom Robo
>Last decade
Anon, Custom Robo Battle Revolution is just over ten years old now.
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>yfw
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>>260211056
I looked on the back of the case and it said 2004. That's good enough for me, man.
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>>260210519
You're going to triple that just playing the last level alone after you 100% the game to unlock it.

Better rack up those 1-ups.
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>invent casual gaming with the NES
>complain about casuals
>>
So exactly how big is the official Nintendo money pile? Are they realistically in trouble or did the Wii shoot them up to a position of comfort where they can easily afford a period of bad sales?
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>>260211605
The NES is excusable for that because it was crucial to taking over the Western gaming market after Atari shit the bed so fiercely the floorboards beneath it need repairing.
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>>260211605
Back then, they used to playtest the games themselves. They made it harder because they knew everything about how the game worked.
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>>260211605
>casual gaming
>NES
what the fuck

most of the games were dumb as fuck tier hard
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>>260211605
>>
so how do you think Nintendo will achieve such goals on making games more "hardcore"
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>>260212202
To use a bad metaphor, more Metroid Prime and Eternal Darkness, less Wii Fit.
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>>260211627

Considering how much they made with the Wii and the fact that the 3DS has remained a success, I think they're in an okay position. They're just going through a rough transition period as far as the home console market is concerned, but then so is everybody.

The article says:

>In an age where Apple and Android smartphones have become the leading games platforms for the casual audience, Miyamoto says Nintendo no longer needs to reach out to those customers.

>"In the days of DS and Wii, Nintendo tried its best to expand the gaming population," he said.

>"Fortunately, because of the spread of smart devices, people take games for granted now. It's a good thing for us, because we do not have to worry about making games something that are relevant to general people's daily lives."

>Edge magazine's exclusive interview with Miyamoto comes as part of a wider feature on Nintendo, with the publication visiting its new R&D offices in Kyoto and speaking to developers behind every major upcoming Wii U game.

I think when the Wii came around, the only way for Nintendo to compete with Sony and Microsoft was to appeal to an untapped market of casual gamers as best it could. Miyamoto seems to just be saying "we don't need to do that anymore and if we do, we're gonna lose both the core and casual markets" Doesn't mean Nintendo is going to stop making more family oriented games though just means that it might focus on a different part of their market, which is the more committed market of core Nintendo gamers.
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>>260211605

Wasn't the NES home to some of the most difficult games ever?
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>>260208226
>the games we want

they want money you 12 year old
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>>260211627
Nintendo's got a pretty sizable war chest, the 3DS prints money and pretty much negates the home console dry spell. They can afford to struggle in the console market as long as the 3DS continues to sell like hotcakes.
>>
Okay, I'm tempted to get an issue of Edge legally for the first time in ages.

Is there any way to simply buy a DRM free pdf?
I mean, otherwise I'll simply wait for it to pop up on the well-known sites.
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>People STILL are so deluded to believe that the Wii U actually attempted to target the Wii audience
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>>260212752
It did, initially, before they found out it didn't work.

Wii Fit U exists.
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>>260212202

More sexy waifus, same shitty games.
>>
>>260211991
>>260212579
Apparently you guys don't remember how the NES was constantly hated on by the "hardcore" arcade and PC gamers complaining about how its gimmicky gamepad controller and baby-easy games compared to brutal arcade games and complex PC games were going to ruin gaming forever.
>>
>>260211605
Are you seriously implying gaming didn't start with simple cheap distraction sort of games meant to be played in short bursts?

Do you really think stuff like Metroid, Zelda, Kid Icarus, Mario, Mach Rider, StarTropics, Nazo no Murasamejou, Famicom Wars, Punch-Out!!, and so on were easy, or weren't decently complex for console games at the time?
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>>260213005
I sure as hell don't, since I'm from '88.
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>alienate fans for years to get a quick buck from casuals
>try to make it seem like you care about them after the casuals left
Yeah no. How about you go fuck yourself, Miyamoto?
>>
>>260205430
>Animal Crosiing
>Rehash X/Y
i guess it's back to the important stuff right?
>>
Of course they're coming back to their core audience, they abandoned them all for casuals and it just so happened that the casuals moved on over to smartphones.

Honestly what took them so long? Granted I'm like an abused housewife at this point, so I'm crawling back
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>>260212202

more waifuism
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>>260203305
>nitedo
>passion
>core

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAA

yeah keep rehashing and rereleasing those same 5 ips with gimmicky controls and decade old hardware

passion...LMFAO..good one
>>
>>260212381
Makes sense, no matter what the console situation is though I feel confident that they'll always put out successful handhelds. Even just giving the DS a power upgrade every generation like the 3DS was could last them a while. Smartphones and tablets can't easily replace their unique features.

I feel Nintendo may be looking at a spot of better sales coming up, if Mario Kart 8 taught us anything it's that the best of their 1st party games will very much carry the console, and we've got a whole string of stuff like that in the coming months. This could actually be the Christmas season that Nintendo thought the last few were going to be. If nothing else it'll serve as a short term solution while Nintendo scrambles to lay down the land mines in the offices of their terrible marketing department.
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>>260212579
That's because NES games often gave you restricted control over your character due to technical limitations. Metroid is a good example of it, the majority of the game's difficulty stems from only being able to shoot in 4 directions.
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>>260213179

They never really "alienated" them tho. It was more like "Let's take a balanced approach to what kind of games we put out, but focus our PR on bringing in casuals." At the time that was a smart move and probably saved Nintendo for the last ten years.
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>>260212202
with only the deepest of lore
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>>260213567
>They never really "alienated" them tho.

Do you know where you are?
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>>260213189
Animal Crossing Wild World and City Folk can be considered rehashes, but not New Leaf.
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>>260213567
>saved Nintendo for the last ten years
Yeah. The Wii's success is to Nintendo what Skyrim was to Bethesda 10 times over.
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>>260213397
>NES games often gave you restricted control over your character due to technical limitations
No.
Any good game you actually remember was designed entirely around any limitations that were in place.
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>>260211605
You're a retard. Sure NES had some casualized liscenced games at the time but in general every game had much more difficulty than games do nowadays. Even relatively easy games like StarTropics would still rape your babby anus any day.
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>>260213937
I love Pietro
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>>260213179

They didn't though, I think they expected the core gamers wouldn't need Nintendo's guidance for what games they might be interested in so they focus on marketing to the newer audience.

The Wii had plenty of core titles. I kind of tind it ridiculous that the reason people think the PS3 and 360 were more core orientated was because Sony and Microsoft told you what games to get hyped for.
>>
>>260214018
StarTropics isn't easy though, not even by retro standards.
>>
>>260213397
you people seriously need auto aim to play metroid
how much of fucking a pleb can you be?
>>
>Among the broad range of topics discussed with Miyamoto, the famed games developer explains how Splatoon was nearly a Mario title,

thank god it wasnt
>>
>>260214018

>Star Tropics
>easy

lets take the Legend of Zelda, add guide dang it levels of hidden passages and puzzles and even clunkier combat

and if you die, you start with 3 hearts. always.

still fun though
>>
>>260212381
>doesn't mean they will stop making family games though
Of course not, that's where most of their profit come from.

You guys overthink too hard the fact that party games simply don't sell well anymore.
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>>260213005
I'm 35 and I don't remember that too much. Also arcade and home console were different beasts. There wasn't any more easyness between Atari console games.

Although it's been a long time since I played the arcade Ninja Gaiden, Ninja Gaiden 3 on the NES was way harder than it from my recollection (if the first NES one was easier, which I wouldn't necessarily agree with anyway).
>>
Like them or hate them, Nintendo keeps doing unconventional things in a world where Microsoft and Sony race each other to obsolescence, and even if you don't like what Nintendo does you have to admit they keep the world of gaming more interesting.
>>
>>260213005
>pc games
>86
>implying the one button atari joystick was any better
Topkek.
>>
>>260212897
No. Wii U was basically Nintendo's GameCube philosophy from the get-go, only with a shitty "Wii" coating in a sad, sad attempt to sucker in the expanded audience it got from the Wii. Hell you can see them abandon their audience in the middle of the Wii's lifecycle when they released shit like Other M or a SECOND Mario Galaxy(despite mile-high demand for a new 2D mario with an actual budget and production values) as well as more cartoony puzzle-riddled Zelda. On Wii U Nintendo basically went straight back to making only games Nintendo wanted to make rather than what consumers wanted to play, and it backfired horribly, as could easily have been seen if one would have just looked at N64 and GCN. Sure they threw bones to try to entice "casuals" with NSMBU, Wii Fit U, and the sports pack, but they were smarter than that and didn't bother for the most part simply because they already had those exact games on the Wii.
>>
>>260213005>260215141
just clarfiying, barely nobody had a personal computer in 1986, the year the nes came out
>>
>>260208885
because it doesn't fit the narrative that shitposters want to use. Plus, the average person isn't going to take the time to do their research so they can hook a ton of people with that bait.
>>
>>260215329
Oh so the Ultima series and the massive Commodore 64 ad campaign just didn't exist?

I know you guys suck at history, but this is pathetic.
>>
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>>260203305
Henceforth, the truth shall now be spoken from the highest mountains. Brawl was shit, and will forever be shit.

No amount of revisionist history on /v/ will change that. If Smash4 is anything like Brawl we can go ahead and prepare funeral arrangements for the franchise.

It sucks to put old friends into the ground.
>>
>>260209004
>Zelda 2 death mountain
>Zelda 2 Final Palace
>Zelda 2 final bosses
H
A
R
D
>>
>>260215615
>Brawl was shit
I can understand a lot of /v/'s hatred for certain games, even if I don't hate them myself, but this will forever elude me. /v/, you have shit taste in Brawl.
>>
>>260215572
all ultima games until IV were ported to the nes

good point on the commodore, though, except you obviously never played an arcade game on that piece of shit or you'd know the nes was miles better
>>
>>260203305

Shigeru liked them fine until they stopped printing money.
>>
>>260215615
urafaget
>>
>>260215935

the only crime brawl has committed is that its not melee

remember, if a sequel is like its predecessor, its rehash. if its not, its ruined the series
>>
>>260215225
This is a fascinating post. I don't agree with you at all but I'm chuckling heartily.
>>
>>260203305

>Renewed passion for the core

but that movie was awful
>>
>>260215329
>hurr durr I was born in 1990 or later

pls
>>
To me it sounds like he only wants more diehard Nintendo fanboys because those are the only people who buy WiiU. Unfortunately you can't just make those people appear, Nintendo is doomed.
>>
>>260215329

In America maybe.
>>
>>260216181
im brazilian so i might really be full of shit
pc games didnt really take off until doom
>>
>>260203863
Yeah?

And I've got over 300 hours in Skyrim. Are you telling me that makes Skyrim anything less than casual?
>>
>>260215951
nes rasteriser used dark arts. that shit was fast.
>>
>>260215951
Only 4 was ever posted to the NES, and even then it was obsolete to the awesome port Sega did for its own 8-bit system.
>>
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>>260215329

iota of truth in this. you think gaming PCs have a high entry barrier now?
>>
>>260216223
Even if you weren't wrong about the Wii U, the success of the 3DS is still pretty competently making up for lack of Wii U sales.
>>
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>>260203305

>"Their attitude is, 'okay, I am the customer. You are supposed to entertain me.' It's kind of a passive attitude they're taking, and to me it's kind of a pathetic thing."
>Shiggy calls non gamers pathetic

OH SHIT
>>
>>260216271
>brazilian

ok yeah that explains it. you're probably right about brazil but NA and europe had massive hobbyist, gamer and enthusiast scenes since the early 80's
>>
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He sure loved casuals when they were buying Wiis by the truckload.
>>
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>>260216142
>>
>>260216409

Actually it hasn't kept up at all, which is why Nintendo has not made any money in the past three years. The only reason they profited two years ago was because everyone did due to favorable exchange rates. It's also worth mentioning these three years are the only time since they entered the industry that they have failed to profit.
>>
>>260204493
does anyone know the definition of the word casual? He literally means people that play casually.
>>
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>>260216558
>>260216558

SAY IT AGAIN
>>
>>260216067
I would love to hear what your side of the story is, considering the whole "Nintendo abandoned the core" bullshit is one of the most hilarious arguments I've ever heard.
>>
>>260216716
wee wee
>>
>>260203305
Wii U confirmed designed for doomed.
>>
>>260213397
But any "limitations in controls" in Metroid were balanced by the fact that enemies had simple predictable behaviors. The only game series I think is legitimate in saying clunky controls and player-interface issues inflates difficulty is maybe the Castlevania series.

The only real difficulty in Metroid (which I don't consider very high difficulty level for NES games), was that you had no direction and had to explore and find objectives yourself (while dealing with enemies and hazards). This is a good type of difficulty as it forces the player to be aware of their situation and figure out what needs to be done. Unfortunately in this age people don't have the attention span to devote this sort of mental energy and so you get the compass markers and all that.
>>
>>260213358

>Even just giving the DS a power upgrade every generation like the 3DS was could last them a while. Smartphones and tablets can't easily replace their unique features.

It's not just that, it's also the fact that Nintendo's handhelds carry a very large and unique library of games. Also, the marketing department for the DS was always very different from the Wii marketing department. The Wii had its fair share of games geared for that hardcore market, some fairly well financially and criticallly, but when it came to marketing the Wii, from the very beginning it was never advertised as something for hardcore gamers and that's why it was such a success in spite of not having the kind of features that PS3 and XBOX 360 had or even the power of those systems and this is also why many games designed for hardcore gamers that came out on the Wii sort of flew under the radar. As far as the Wii was concerned, Nintendo was advertising itself as a game company for everybody.

The DS marketing has always been very different and much more balanced in that they have often taken the time to advertise to hardcore gamers and casual gamers alike who bought the console and in the case of the DS, the core gamers probably did play the more casual games more often. Many of the same people playing Atlus RPG's were still playing Nintendogs.

>>260213987

Some of the Wii U's own lack of success can probably be blamed on the colossal success that was the Wii. Wiis were still selling when it came out.
>>
>>260216675
When you see the term "casual" get thrown around places like this, just filter it to "retard"
>>
>Nintendo's renewed passion for the core
hahahahahahaha

you roped in casuals with the wii, doubled down on the gimmicks and got assfucked for it. you even made the wii editions of mario kart and smash crap for casuals' sake, and now you're sorry? ahahahahaha
>>
>>260216627
They're in a comfortable position to experiment and take a few failures, remember. The Wii gave them more so much money that if they used it all to build a massive warehouse to store it all, they'd still have too much money to fit inside it.
>>
>>260204291
You can't deny that the wii was marketed and made for cassuals, the Wii U is almost the same.
Yes they have the core games that aren't for cassuals, but everything else is made for them.
You can't deny it, is a fact.
>>
>>260217036
I'll deny facts all I want you fucking fascist
>>
>>260216627
that's not why they've not seen a profit though. the wiiu has failed to make any particular profits as yet, but what's really cost them is investments in new buildings, expanding their development teams, buying shares back etc. it's a negative on their overall revenue but that money is funding new and potentially awesome shit. Compare that to Sony who are hemhorraging money like a stuck pig and selling off assets left and right.
>>
>>260217036
>the Wii U is almost the same
The Wii U is a polar opposite to the original Wii.
>>
how to
>>
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Shiggy has officially joined /v/

How does this make you feel?
>>
>>260216896

>implying people who played desu also played nintendogs

That delusion.

>>260217026
>>260217278

Business bait belongs in >>>/biz/
>>
>>260213567
>>260214206
Do they pay you to post stuff like this?
>>
>>260217396
>the card that reached Iwata made them all aware of this place
>they are lurking
>it's starting to rub off on them
>>
>>260217305
Save for, you know, the abundance of Mario games

Not so say mario games aren't good, but they sure are casual.
>>
>>260216815
I wasn't being facetious. I would link you to my opinion but it was in the thread that got deleted and I can't be bothered writing it again.
>>
>>260217593
>mario games
>casual

ehh... what?
>>
>>260217593
There should be a hardcore mario game.

You know the final level of Mario 3D World, 3D Land, Galaxy 2, etc.? Make an entire game with only levels of that length and difficulty.
>>
>>260217593
Funny thing being that casuals don't touch 3D Mario, at all.
>>
>love the core player
>make the wii
Miyamoto gets more retarded with every year, sticker star was the last straw for me. Now he's on to make starfox a waglan game too.
>>
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>>260213567
>>260214206
>all that rabid Nintendildo delusion

Nintendo stopped being appealing to me after the Gamecube and I've owned every system from them up until then. They instead started to pander to 4 year old toddlers, casuals and retards. You are most likely one of those if you think their games haven't become gradually more bland, barebone, a cutesy parody of their former self and shit.
It's too little, too late and frankly that old pedofuck sounds like a gigantic hypocrite who is backpedalling hard, being the very one who produced shit like Wii Fit, Wii Music and other casual cancer turds for the past 10 years.
>>
>>260217465
>refute your claims with actual facts

>GO BACK TO >biz FAGS!

you brought it up shitlord.
>>
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>>260203305
OK SHIGGY THEN WHERE THE FUCK IS MY F-ZERO UX
>>
>>260217305
how so?

gimmick? check
shitty 3rd part support? check
marios and zeldas by the dozens? check
>>
>>260217916
>it's retarded and hypocritical to realize that your old tactics aren't working anymore and shift to ones that have more promise
>>
>>260217782

They should a Mario game similar to Lost Levels.
>>
>>260217465
>>implying people who played desu also played nintendogs


When I bought the original DS, the games I played most on it were Riviera: The Promised Land, Metroid Prime Hunters, Meteos, Nintendogs and Castlevania.
>>
>>260217925

>facts

Seems you need to play Facts vs. Opinions. Binky will help you stop shitposting.
>>
>>260218026
It's no surprise you don't get it considering the extremely superficial understanding of what those two systems are.
>>
>>260217916
you do realise that there was only one console in between the gamecube and the wiiU right?
>>
>>260218306

>anecdotal evidence to summarize a userbase of 150 million people

No.
>>
>>260215225
Denial: The Post

Wii U was made and build around their shitty Fisher Price tablet which had only one mission: to get all those shitty casuals on board and recreate a Wii 2.0 craze.
It backfired because the casuals have already moved on to mobile games and the hardcore and seasoned gamers saw the piece of shit hardware of the console and its pathetic toddler iPad for what it was and didn't even bother.
The name itself of that POS paperweight is the best evidence that they wanted to ride on that Wii tail as long as possible.
>>
>>260211151
fucking wop dagoes
>>
>>260217862
>what is trial and error
>>
>>260218306
>Metroid Prime Hunters
This crap needs to burn in hell.
>>
>>260218342
>shitposts with absolutely no argument

>stop shitposting!

haha! you sure showed me!
>>
>>260203305
>Shigeru don't like filthy casuals.
hes only saying that because they finally realised that the only people that bought the wiiu were the neckbeards, the hole "casual" player base they had with the wii is now gone.
>>
>>260218531
It backfired because it was never meant for the casuals but for the hardest hardcore.
>>
The prodigal son.

The shitty ex boyfriend crawling back to his homely ex girlfriend after being pumped and dumped by his 9/10 girlfriend.
>>
>>260218837
>never meant to the casuals
How exactly does a tablet help hardcore games?
>>
>>260218837
Denial 2: Denial harder
>>
>>260218831
>hes only saying that because they finally realised that the only people that bought the wiiu were the neckbeards
He realized that Wii U will never take off with their current strategy, and he's bitter over it.
>>
>>260218531
As much as I like the Wii U I do agree with this. Nintendo hoped the Wii U ship would sail into the sunset forever, but it turned out that it wasn't a sunset but the unforgiving flame of a tactical carpet bombing.

Thankfully with conferences like this it seems Nintendo is going back to their pre-Wii game, and I have hope. This could turn out quite well, they certainly have the money in store for experimentation.
>>
>>260218619
There is not trial and error here. Nintendo tried to create another casual magnet like the wii but failed horribly now they try to salvage the situation by pretending that they always cared for core players when they openly laughed at hardcore players during Wii's rise.
>>
Whats wrong with ditching them? Nintendo made games that they could access and all they did was play those and not move on to the other games. They talked about this way back with the Wii, they weren't trying to pander to casuals and ditch the hardcore audience, they were trying to bring in people that didn't normally play games in order to expand their audience and get more sales. They wanted to bridge the gap between people who don't play games and the traditional core gaming with easy to access titles like Wii Sports, not ditch the hardcore market altogether. But casuals just moved on to iPhone and never tried to pick up the more challenging games. That's what he's talking about. So whip out your dick and piss on them, he's right imo.
>>
>>260216058
>>260216058
Haha, try again, dickmunch
>>
>>260218837
>trying to bank on the ipad's success and failing
b-but it was for the core gamers we swear
>>
>>260218493

>providing no evidence whatsoever to summarize a userbase of 150 million people.

Games like Nintendogs and Brain Age sold a lot of units, I don't think you can say that everyone who bought a copy or played a copy of those on a semi-regular basis was a casual, especially since a lot of people shared those consoles with other members in their families, like their kids or younger siblings.
>>
>>260218476
Yes, you fagnut. I count the Wii U as another failure. Nintendo went to shit after the GCN era and stayed utter shit to this day.
What did you even try to say with your post, you god damn potato?

>>260218047
It's the way he talks, all arrogant and holier-than-thou about the same casuals he was sucking dicks just 2 years ago. He is a fucking whore and no better than Cliff Hasbeenski who made it big with PC gaming, went on to shit on it and its entire audience during the 360 years and is now crawling back again
>Y-Yo PC da best consoles a shit. Do you love me again, plz love me again gais ;_;
>>
>>260219332
>the Wii U ship
Meant to say Wii ship
>>
>>260219332
>experimentation
It's already been two years and if anything they showed that they are investing in sequels to older properties with splatoon being the exception.
>>
>>260219101
It helps no one but the only ones who'll defend it are the most hardcore around. Nintendo lost it when they greenlit the idea.

>>260219145
The Wii U is a poor lie, Nintendo made it to please the hardcore but designed it expecting the casuals to be stupid enough to fund their crusade into insanity.
>>
>>260218531
The tablet was casual bait, but it also makes the Wii U the only console to have a second screen since the Dreamcast, and that's not a bad thing.
>>
>>260219682
The Wii U was made to attract casuals. That is why it has "Wii" in the name and it is also why the tablet was included. They want to focus on core games now that they failed to get said casuals, but if they had succeeded, it would be another Wii.
>>
>>260217782
Haven't you read the thread casual =/= easy. It's how much time you devote to videogames.

If game is simple and designed to be enjoyed in bursts of say 5-10 min or less it's a casual game.
>>
>>260217916

1. That was Dawn Paine that made the antisocial teenager comment, not Shiggy-Diggy

2. Since when are "core gamer" and "anti-social teenager" synonyms for one another? Just because Paine said that shit doesn't mean Nintendo ever gave up on the core gamer crowd, just that they didn't want video games as a medium to only be something for "anti-social teenagers," as video games have often characterized as a whole because they were trying to sell the Wii to people who didn't normally play video games. But just because the marketing department focused on drawing in casuals doesn't mean they weren't producing products for the core crowd or that they were telling the core crowd to fuck off. Shiggy and friends often went through the trouble to tell their core crowd "N-no seriously, we haven't forgotten about you.
>>
>>260219674
Everyone knows that Zelda is the experimentation grounds for every Nintendo system since the GC. Expect Zelda U to be filled with "creativity" nonsense.
>>
>>260219101
>How exactly does a tablet help hardcore games?

You'll never be able to do higher end things in Pikmin 3(like the collection challenges) or even get the best 100% completion times without the gamepad.

Many of it's advantages lean towards higher end play.
>>
>>260203305
isn't this exactly what they said when they announced the wii u?
>>
That's a spiteful comment no matter how you look at it. Reminds me of all the stories of him being a total prick when he thinks he looks bad.
>>
>>260219943
Casual games are defined by their low levels of difficulty, complexity and depth. Casual very much does = easy.
>>
>>260219902
>not a bad thing
Agreed. The gamepad seems to be best at just inventory and map screens, and I think that's enough. Playing Wind Waker HD being able to just glance down at the map and switch items on the fly is the kind of small little thing that goes a long way towards immersion and overall enjoyment when I'm no longer pausing the game every 10 seconds.
>>
>>260219924
>That is why it has "Wii" in the name
That part is the lie. Nintendo is lying to the casuals. The Wii U is not a Wii but they simply pasted the name with the conviction it would be enough to lure the casuals despite the system providing an experience that has nothing in common with the original Wii.
>and it is also why the tablet was included
The tablet was included because it made Nintendo ticks, not the audience.
>>
>>260219332
>Thankfully with conferences like this it seems Nintendo is going back to their pre-Wii game, and I have hope. This could turn out quite well, they certainly have the money in store for experimentation.

They can talk all fucking day, I won't believe those zick-zack jumping DLC jews for one minute unless I see a brand new next-gen F-Zero that tops GX, inb4

>B-But that's impossibru!

yes I just said TOPS. Only then they will prove that they actually fucking care about hard(core) gamers and mean what they spout.
>>
>>260220529
I don't agree with your negativity but I'd be so fucking hyped for such an F-Zero. We can always hope.
>>
>>260220257
>Casual games are defined by their low levels of difficulty, complexity and depth. Casual very much does = easy.

I wouldn't be sure about those two. A very common thing with many modern games is you have layers of game of game mechanics making it more complex but the low difficulty renders it almost meaningless.

So we have easy games with complexity but little depth, especially in RPGs or games with RPG elements.
>>
>>260220257
Actually the most accurate definition of casual would be bullshit intolerant.
>>
>people want Nintendo to go back to the GCN days where they failed so hard they have been considered an irrelevant company since
>>
>>260203305
>implying the next zelda won't again be easy as fuck and full of handholding
>implying there will ever be a legitimately challenging mario game again
>implying the pokemon games will ever stop having AI that lets you win and a ridiculous amount of uneeded handholding
>implying their next console won't again use underpowered software

Nintendo fucking love casuals, it's their main audience since the Wii, and despite what they claim they are obviously still trying to target them with the Wii U. Nintendo said fuck you to actual gamers back with the Wii, now most of us have moved on. I'm happy with Sony and my shitty PC, so thanks but no thanks Shigeru.
>>
>>260216304
No, it makes you a fucking retard for wasting 300 hours on that shit game. Kill yourself faggot.
>>
>>260220257
I think it's more about simplicity & time invested than difficulty I'm sure there's tons of casual games with levels or shit we both couldn't complete (imagine extra difficult levels and such)

Saying a Mario game is casual is not correct technically.
>>
>>260220826
That was the N64.
>>
>>260220826
They seemed to want to fail judging by the gamecube's design.
>>
>>260220826
I want them to go back to the SNES days, but that isnt a possibility.
>>
>>260220826
>people want Nintendo to go back to the GCN days
Only the crazy hardcore, Aonumafags and 3D Mario worshippers.
>>
>>260203305
Casuals bought the Wii in droves then abandoned Nintendo a gen later.

Of course they fucking hate the casuals.
>>
>>260221070
>I want them to go back to the SNES days
You should want them to go back to their NES days.
>>
The only reason they're saying this now is because Nintendo is a bunch of delusional dumbfucks who, despite evidence to the contrary and everyone warning them, thought they could hold onto an audience as fickle as the casual. Not realizing they move onto the newest trend at the drop of a hat so now Nintendo is in a position where they flipped off the hard core and now have to backtrack and take their foot out of their mouth after realizing oh shit hard core are the ones who stay around consistently.
>>
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>>260219902
>>260220258
>and that's not a bad thing.
Please stop droning so hard, kthxbye.
>>260220258
>I want my otherwise completely useless and inconvenient iPad knock-off controller to serve as a map because I'm an autistic fuck who hates pressing pause every 30 minutes. It's just SOOOOOOOOOOOOO ANNOYING OMFG WHO EVEN INVENTED THE PAUSE MENU??!!!
>>
>>260221245
>Casuals bought the Wii in droves then abandoned Nintendo a gen later
They didn't abandon Nintendo. Nintendo abandoned them. Get your shit right.
>>
>>260221294
I like them both.
>>
>>260221484
The NES had no competition.
>>
>>260203305
Nintendo simply doesn't and refuses to offer what most people are looking for in a nintendo console, that's why they are failing so fucking bad.

>no proper 3d mario for wii u
>no challenging, dark, zelda adventure with great graphics
>still no proper console pokemon rpg
>>
>>260209004
>Nintendo have had to casualise their games if they wanted to do well in America (which is by far the most profitable country to sell video games in)

And yet LoZ outsold LttP by over 1 million units in the US alone. And it outsold SS (the most linear, can't get lost if you tried Zelda) by almost 2 million units.
>>
>>260219524

Anecdotal evidence is worse than no evidence at all.
>>
>>260221364
You can play Monster Hunter with the Pro controller and use the tablet as a second mobile screen. I see absolutely no fault in that.
The only hardware defect the Wii U has is its lack of power compared to, say, the PS4.
>>
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>>260221364
>>
>>260221301

Except Nintendo never really lost its hardcore fanbase. It's just they realized with the Wii U, or perhaps expected, that the only people who were going to buy it were their hardcore fanbase.

Before, the Wii was a such a fucking success that the hardcore fanbase was sort of on the periphery, mostly confined to the handheld market and some nice areas. Now that the casuals don't give a fuck, they're just going to use all the money they got off the casuals experiment and try new stuff.
>>
>>260221573
The NES lost in Europe and South America to the Master System and local computers.
>>
>>260221582
>no proper 3d mario for wii u
No one cares enough about 3D Mario to make a system relevant.
>no challenging, dark, zelda adventure with great graphics
Now this is something people want.
>still no proper console pokemon rpg
What's the point? It would bomb.
>>
>>260221582
your point on 3D mario is wrong, though. Consumers want a proper 2D mario made with a real budget and production values that fleshes out the universe more rather than just being a shoestring reskin of old stuff we've seen and played before.

The other 2 game examples are spot on, though.
>>
>>260221627

Except that's wrong, you fucking retard.
>>
>>260221582
If you think a Pokemon RPG would actually work and be lots of fun, than you haven't actually thought about what a pokemon RPG would be like.
>>
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>>260203305
>hey guys we fucked the Wii U
>but now we will save it! it was our plan all along
>>
>>260221364

What kind of asshole holds the controller like that and intentionally makes it hard on themselves?

The way I hold the Gamepad(and by extension 3DS/DS) allows me to see the gamepad and TV without having to move my head.

This is exactly the same sort of bullshit people tried to stick the DS with back in 2003.
>>
>>260221582
>that's why they are failing so fucking bad.

But they're not failing.
>>
>>260222080

(by back in 2003 I mean speculation when the system was revealed, the WiiU is a similar case despite being out since a lot of non-owners like to comment on it).
>>
>>260221364
>hey, the map and inventory screens here on the gamepad are actually pretty convenient
>FUCK YOU YOU AUTISTIC FUCKING FUCK WHO HATES GAME DESIGN FUCK YOU ARE OBJECTIVELY WRONG FUCKING FUCK FUCK
>>
>>260221930
>Consumers want a proper 2D mario made with a real budget and production values
You know it's not happening, Miyamoto considers it a casual product, he knows people want it and if he were to make it, then they'd want MORE. Miyamoto won't have any of that.
>>
>>260221876
>What's the point? It would bomb.

You cannot seriously believe a fully fledged pokemon rpg for a console would bomb. Do you happen to work for nintendo?
>>
>>260221582
>no proper 3d mario for wii u
Pretty sure they've at least hinted that one is in the works. Something like 3D World wouldn't be the only Mario on Wii U, and we're also not getting another NSMB game either.
>no challenging, dark, zelda adventure with great graphics
The one we're getting looks great visually so far given its running on a fucking toaster, and anyone who wants a grimdark, edgy Zelda needs to just get fucked. MM and TP were as 'dark' as the series needs to be. And for all we know the story could touch on some more serious subject matter, we know nothing at all about it yet.
>still no proper console pokemon rpg
We're never going to get one, deal with it. Colosseum and XD were as close as we'll get. A console Pokemon also doesn't make a lot of sense in that half the point is trading and battling with other people, and its harder/less convenient to do that on a console.
>>
>>260222308
There's a reason pokemon is on handheld and not on home console.
>>
>>260220774
>more complex
>low difficulty

One of these things is untrue for the hypothetical game in question.

A complex game (that is, a game with REAL, MEANINGFUL complexity, that is, rules that significantly deepen the game, not what I like to call "bloat" rules (fake complexity/convolution) like the high number of meaningless, pointless ways you can customize your units in grindfest SRPGs like in Final Fantasy Tactics or Disgaea (meaningless and pointless because the games are so easy that they never force you to employ a very high number of strategic unit customization) is BY DEFINITION a more difficult game to play and master, because you have to learn, understand and master all of these different rules. Consider Civilization, for example, one of the most complex games in existence. Consider the size of the manual, which is practically a small Bible.

You cannot have a complex, easy game, that simply isn't the way the relationship between complexity, depth and skill work.
>>
>>260222436
>The one we're getting looks great visually so far
It reminds me of that PoP game. The awful, awful 3D one.
>>
>>260222436
>its running on a fucking toaster
The Wii U, while definitely not up to par with the PS4 and XBone, is actually quite a bit more powerful than people give it credit for. It should be given a sort of tech-demo game, something that shows us what it's fully capable of.
>>
>>260220784
lol, "bullshit", more like "I don't understand how to get past a certain part of the game so I'm just going to give up and call the game imbalanced or unfair". I'd be intolerant of challenge too if I were an unskilled, lazy casual.
>>
>>260222463
I agree that a home-console Pokemon isn't going to happen and isn't a particularly well thought-out idea, but it certainly wouldn't bomb. We get them on handhelds because the game is better suited to them and they print money. Making a direct competitor on console would eat into their handheld sales a bit. They're better off making spin-offs for consoles.

Where's my new Pokemon Snap, Nintendo? The gamepad would be perfect for taking pictures.
>>
>>260222669
On a side note hardcore stands for bullshit tolerant.
>>
>>260220774
>A very common thing with many modern games is you have layers of game of game mechanics making it more complex

This is the "bloat" I'm talking about, which indeed renders complexity meaningless when many of the rules don't even matter, like the majority of spells you can use in Kingdom Hearts.
>>
>>260222628

Nobody cares about grafix, only games. When your hardware is so far behind that you can't even run shitty versions of popular multiplats, you have fucked up.
>>
>>260222628
Sure but its still basically a toaster. You can get some nice-looking stuff on a low-end PC too if its optimized well, and anything made by Nintendo will obviously be very well-optimized.
>>
>>260213005
PC gaming was dead and arcades were quarter sucking machines which had to be artificially difficult to make money.

Your point is what?
>>
>>260222436
>nd anyone who wants a grimdark, edgy Zelda needs to just get fucked.

I mean dark as in, it's a battle against evil forces trying to take over the world, yet none of the games in quite a while have felt like anything you are taking on is even remotely dangerous. Saving the world is a piece of cake. Increasing the difficulty would fix this a lot. I don't expect dark souls difficulty, but you have to admit the difficulty and handholding in Skyward sword especially was an absolute joke.
>>
>>260203863
>picking SM3DW out of all exclusives

there enough better games to choose
>>
>>260222937
But it can, why can't it? The fucking 360 can run that shit. Developers just don't want to take the time to do more than a lazy port because they expect the returns to be so low. And they are, because it was a lazy, full-price port.
>>
>>260222726
>isn't a particularly well thought-out idea

Are you retarded? A console Pokemon would benefit greatly from a more powerful machine that can render more complex, prettier looking worlds, and a control scheme that lends itself to more interesting, cooler ways to interact with that world, like freeform flight modes when using Fly with your Pokemon, or maybe changing the way wild Pokemon encounters work so that you actually had to hunt down Pokemon that you could physically see that may be trying to hide from you. There are a lot of ways a console Pokemon could be an amazing game.
>>
>>260222508
you can have a complex easy TO PICK UP game.
DotA, Chess, Pokemon, hell even Solitaire has a complex layout and tons of casuals play that shit. If you want to play the game at the best level possible it's a different story and at that point, yes, you wouldn't be a casual player but there are still plenty of casuals that play these games lightly.
>>
>>260222726
>I agree that a home-console Pokemon isn't going to happen and isn't a particularly well thought-out idea

There really is no reason why it couldn't be amazing with the right people making it. Whether you want it or not, to say that the world of pokemon is unfit for an rpg/adventure game is just silly.
>>
>>260222726
>Where's my new Pokemon Snap, Nintendo?

Again, nintendo doesn't give a shit what you want. Expect as shitty spinoff game that involves importing pokemon from the 3ds and dressing them up instead.
>>
>>260223220
Well I also said the game could touch on more mature themes and whatnot, we have no idea yet. Difficulty was never really why I played Zelda though. Exploration (within reason) and puzzles were the big draw. I don't think the combat needs to be any harder than it was at its peak difficulty, maybe just a little deeper with more moves and combos similar to what WW and TP tried to do. I thought the puzzles and dungeons in SS were largely up to snuff, though perhaps a little on the easy side.
>>
>>260223328

Because WiiU multiplats are the worst selling of all the platforms, that's why. WiiU basically has the Cell of this gen. I don't think it's actually hard to work with, but it requires additional effort that isn't justified by the sales.

If you really think that all these people would come out of the woodwork to buy WiiU multiplats if devs did something like add back multiplayer for Sniper Elite, then you're delusional.
>>
>>260223126
>arcades were quarter sucking machines which had to be artificially difficult to make money
I wish you people would stop being retarded.
Most of the arcade games people care about and remember were hard as shit, but almost entirely fair about it.
>>
>>260223328
The thing is, the wii u is supposed to be competing with the ps4 and xbone, not the 360 and ps3. That's pretty much the problem, they are a gen behind and too stupid to realize or care.
>>
>>260223328
Nintendo is well known as being a bitch to develop for, it's not necessarily lazy developers, it might just look like that from our perspective. Read that interview about the early Wii U coding where they had to wait like 30 minutes or whatever it was every time they wanted to test code, and how online didn't show up until about a month before release.
>>
>>260223690
Nintendo will never sell multiplats unless they stop making underpowered consoles that play the games twice as bad as the competition does. I know the gamecube didn't get many either, but that was a fuckup for other reason, namely the god awful design and domination of the ps2.
>>
>>260223392
>DotA, Chess, Pokemon, hell even Solitaire

All games that aren't even that complex. And yes, that INCLUDES Chess, the many variants of which are more or less complex as the rules call for it, such as Shogi which allows the players to return a captured piece to their side of the board upon reaching the opposing end of the game board. Anyway, what you are talking about is accessibility, which is different from what we're talking about. I don't give a shit how many casuals "casually" play Civilization, that has nothing to do with anything.
>>
>>260222726
Everyone has a cellphone now, Pokemon Snap wouldn't be innovative enough
>>
>>260223758
Smash TV was not fair. Shit was a quarter sucker.
>>
>>260222726
>Making a direct competitor on console would eat into their handheld sales a bit.
Considering how nintendo is desperate for wiiu sales and that the 3ds, despite not selling as well as the ds and they'd have you think it a failure as such, is doing quite fine, a main pokemon game on the wiiu to give it a guaranteed millions of sales is what they could stand to do right now.
>>
>>260223391
But rendering more complex, prettier worlds and an intuitive control scheme isn't really what Pokemon games have been about or set out to do. That's my point, the strengths a home console brings to the table aren't really what Pokemon is built around. Its more about the social interaction and collecting shit. Creating an immersive world where you can control your flying Pokemon or chase down a Pidgey before you catch it isn't really what the makers of these games are trying to do and its not the direction the series is (and has been) going in.

Handhelds make the most sense because Pokemon is more and more about interacting with other players. trading and battling with other people is a lot easier on a handheld than a home console, and you can take it and trade/battle anywhere, not just when you're at home on the internet.

Again, I'd love to see some more spin-offs on consoles, games that perhaps might involve some of those mechanics or features you're talking about. A Pokemon Snap game that involves the player having to track and hunt a Pokemon, sneak up to it and take a photo would be really, really cool. The world could easily be very detailed and immersive without taking anything away from the core gameplay ideals.
>>
>>260222278
Not the same thing, you retard.
>>
>>260223681
The dungeons in SS were probably my favorite part, I thought a lot of them were very well laid out, especially the Desert one with the interesting time-shift stones. Shame the boss monsters were on the retarded side (perhaps the entire Zelda team burned themselves out for life on the TP boss in that temple you get the spinner in), but hell, I had fun with the whole thing. I do hope Zelda U goes a bit more on the mature side I agree, and more difficulty options than child and hero mode would be a step in the right direction.
>>
>>260223631
But we already have that
>>
Smash Assfaggots when?
>>
>>260221660
So what you are basically saying is that the Wii U gamepad is absolutely useless aside from serving as a map display for retards that are too anal about pressing pause for 2 secs
>>
>>260221930
What will be Mario Maker
>>
>>260221582
>no challenging, dark, zelda adventure with great graphics
Oh sorry anon, people hated Zelda 2, that will never happen again.
Even though Zelda 2 was a good game
>>
>>260224919
>being too anal and autistic to press pause is the same thing as thinking that menu functions are nice and convenient when put on the gamepad
Idiot.
>>
Nintendo probably always consciously knew the casual market was a fickle market, but just saw that nobody was tapping into that market at the time and decided to jump at it, especially given the nature of its competition. It's easier to convince mom to buy a video game system if you sell it as "hey, you can play too."

And this tactic was successful for the time being and now Nintendo is going to shift some of its focus. I don't see the problem here. Besides, Wii Fit and other stuff like that is probably going to stay with us either way. So they're not giving up on the casual market altogether, just not as concerned with the wider approach they had going with the Wii these last few years cause that's not gonna yield the same sort of return.


>>260223816
>The thing is, the wii u is supposed to be competing with the ps4 and xbone, not the 360 and ps3.

Is it though? The feeling I'm getting from Nintendo these days is they are still trying to appeal to particular markets where they can make money without having to worry about competing with Sony and Microsoft. They got the Wii stuff designed for the more gamers who probably aren't interested in stuff like Call of Duty and are fine with family and party titles, they've got all the more core titles geared towards their fanboy market, and they're still untouchable in the handheld market when it comes to either hardcore or casual gamers.

At this point, I think they're just concerned with staying within their own market, not trying to move too much into Sony and Microsoft's waters. It's why they're still making Wii Fit and Wii Sports and now trying to pump out weeb games.
>>
>>260223690
>WiiU basically has the Cell of this gen
No, it doesn't. It's just Wii 2.0, devs avoid it despite it being able to run last-gen multiplats (you know, those games that ACTUALLY run on the Cell?) just fine. The Wii U isn't stupidly complicated to develop for, and that's what the Cell was notorious for. Bayonetta looked and ran poorly on the PS3, but it looks great on Wii U so far. Even seems like they fixed the majority of the framerate issues.

Multiplats sell poorly because they're largely overpriced and poorly optimized. Why would anyone buy Batman on Wii U for $60 when its half that on 360 and PS3 and runs better? Why would anyone buy ME3 for fucking $60 when the entire goddamn trilogy is on 360 for $40? the makers of these multiplats put zero effort into the Wii U ports and then turned around and complained about their games selling poorly.
>>
>>260225081
I just wish Nintendo didn't seem to abandon Twilight Princess' graphics.
>>
>>260209887
There actually was direction, just they did it in the right way instead of just telling you you can't go there unless you do this first. Instead, they just put a rock, or a dark cavern, or an ocean in the way so you have to get the item from the dungeon first. And once you get the item from the dungeon, why not finish the dungeon?

Personally, I think that's brilliant game design.
>>
>Nintendo sells out to the casuals
>Casuals get over Nintendo
>Nintendo: "G-good...we d-didn't like you guys a-anyway..."
>>
>>260225371
It's called making mistakes and learning from them, retard.
>>
>>260224675
Never.
>>
>>260225238
Honestly, I like the cell shaded style much better. The game is never going to look out of date because of it.
>>
>>260224919
Not at all, it can be used like a lower DS screen to make games more interactive and have generally better controls. See, W101.
>>
>>260215572

I only knew one person who had their own PC in 86. Coincidentally he was a dochebag proto-dudebro with rich parents.
>>
>>260225710
Then what is the tablet for?
>>
Why do people keep screaming "nintendo abandoned the core"? Where was the core when Nintendo catered to them in the 5th and 6th generations?
>>
>>260224492
Not that guy, but I really didn't like any of the dungeons in SS.
It was the same stale modern Zelda formula of:
>enter dungeon
>can only go one way because you don't have the dungeon item
>get dungeon item
>progress through rooms in a linear fashion solving babby tier puzzles along the way
>combat and navigation kept extremely easy and to a minimum
>beat easy boss with dungeon item
Except in SS, you don't even get to solve any of the babby tier puzzles for yourself. Fi will give you the solution every time before you even get a chance to think about what to do.
>>
>>260225832
Off TV play.
>>
>>260225750
I'll concede that, cel-shading ages really well, and I won't deny that it looks great too. I just felt that the graphics worked really well with TP's general atmosphere and all.
>>
>>260225174
This, Nintendo realized they couldn't keep trying to appeal exclusively to the same small crowd of 'core' gamers after the N64 and GC. Too much competition, too few customers.

So they wanted to draw in new customers with the Wii and DS. Maybe after playing things like Wii Fit or Brain Age, some people would be interested in playing 'real' video games. Iata even recently said the launch of the other two consoles was good for Nintendo because it gets more people interested in and talking about video games in general. Anyone who buys a PS4 might still buy a Wii U because it offers completely different games.

I think they had the right idea at the time given just making core games wasn't working too well for them. Widening their appeal to get more people in general interested in video games with the idea that maybe some of them would become 'core' gamers and make it a hobby they actively partake in was probably the best thing they could have done.
>>
>Error!

I suppose it was too good to be true. The only time I can remember where Nintendo abandoned the core was with Wii Whatever, Nintendogs, Cooking Mama and Pikmin fuck you it's casual

Super Mario Galaxy 2, Kid Icarus Uprising, Skyward Sword... Honestly, it always seemed like they made more games for core gamers than any other developer. I don't know where the "casual" label comes from, Super Mario 3D World is the kind of game where if your jump is slightly off, you fall, die and have to do it again. Compared to Crysis 2, Batman or whatever where you're basically invincible, it's clearly the more hardcore game
>>
>>260226027
Well that sounds nice. Is it nice?
>>
>>260225979
>Fi will give you the solution every time before you even get a chance to think about what to do
Again, I found the whole game generally enjoyable, hell I even enjoyed The Imprisoned fights (if only for that satisfying moment at the end where you get to take the sealing spike, slash a symbol into it, and drive it back into the ground), but Fi doing things like that did legitimately piss me off. Let me solve the puzzle myself, Fi!
>>
>>260225238
Aonuma doesn't like that style.

>>260225750
A pathetic atempt to make Zelda relevant in Japan.
>>
>>260226289
It's pretty nice.
>>
>>260226441
Good to know. I'm getting one with the Bayo bundle.
>>
>>260225852
Listening to CDs on their PS1s and watching DVDs on their PS2s, that's where.

I agree, Nintendo catered to 'core' gamers for years and it simply stopped working. N64 sold like 30 million and GC a little over 20. Meanwhile, Sony's platforms sold like hotcakes and everyone gushed over their media-playback gimmicks and casual shovelware arrived in droves.
>>
>>260226379
>Aonuma doesn't like that style.
Well, I don't like that Aonuma's style. I just wish all those old fucks of Nintendo would die already or step down. Miyamoto and co. are holding the company down.
>>
>>260226587
There is a bayo bundle?
>>
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>Guy who made 8-Airship
>Abandoning the core

He secretly wishes to see you suffer.
>>
>>260226826
Probably not.
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>>260226797
Aonuma is making Zelda games for his son, deal with it.
>>
>>260226379
Aonuma also doesn't like zelda 1 and 2 even though they were both smash hits, both largely focused on combat and made the series popular.

And zelda 2 was a hit, no matter how much aonuma and miyamoto deny it and say that its the "black sheep" of the series.
>>
>>260226826
Oh, I meant the Bayo 1+2 game bundle. It'd be pretty nice if there was a system bundle, but this is Nintendo so probably not.
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>>260227018
Aonuma is a clown. At this point the Zelda brand is the only thing selling the games.
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>>260227004
He can deal with me not buying his games.
>>
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>>260225238
>>260226045
What kills Twilight Princess's look for me is the excessive amounts of brown and bloom.
Ocarina of Time and especially Majora's Mask managed to have exaggerated but not outright cartoony characters, and a decent amount of detail, much like TP, but they also managed to have color and not hurt to look at. I think in a lot of ways they hold up much better than TP, visually, despite the obvious technical limitations.
>>
>>260227385
He doesn't care. He'd rather trim the meat and keep the fat.
>>
>>260217396
>Shiggy has officially joined /v/
>implying he hasn't always been with /v/

Shiggy is pretty much universally considered one of the holiest patron saints of game developers, he transcends any one game forum.
>>
>>260227004
What will happen when the kid grows up and tells hi that puzzles and grass cutting suck?
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>>260227726
>grass cutting sucks
You shut your whore mouth.
>>
>>260227726
Link's Crossbow Training 2
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>>260227831
Should've clarified, grass cutting in excess sucks.
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>>260227996
I go out of my way to cut as much grass as possible
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>>260227680
No one person can claim any achievements that were team efforts.

Except Shiggy, because he was replaced on the Mario team and instead made Doki Doki Panic while the other guys made Lost Levels.
>>
>>260228069
So do I, but only on 2D Zelda. 3D cutting is not as satisfying for some reason.
>>
>>260227018
Miyamoto doesn't dislike Zelda II or think it did poorly. I'm tired of this misconception.
An interviewer asked which game he'd worked on he was most disappointed with, and he said Zelda II, because unlike with pretty much every other game he's ever worked on the design of the game did not evolve much beyond its initial concept, mostly due to limitations of the Famicom Disk System.
He just wishes they could have done more with the game.
>>
>>260227912
I wouldn't mind, the game was kind of fun
>>
making a hundred list is pretty damn hard, why would they even attempt doing such things, a top ten list is hard enough, why don't they just focus on doing that
>>
>>260228189
It's slower and more tedious in the 3D games, generally.
Twilight Princess sort of fixed this by letting you run around while swinging your sword, but Skyward Sword got rid of this good change so you're right back to stopping every time you swing your sword.
>>
>>260228172
Going through NES games, it's always kind of humbling to me how small some of those dev teams were. I know the games were a lot simpler, but I imagine that teams that small offered a level of synergy and camaraderie that modern AAA teams don't get to experience.
>>
>>260228189
Looks like Zelda U grass cutting will be fun.
>>
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>>260228743
>1 programmer
>1 level designer
>Still the most systematically complex and gameplay varied game on the NES
>>
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>stay away from integrating heavily with social media and player accounts cause casuals would just want to play their game right away back then
>stay away from integrating heavily with social media and player accounts cause hardcore gamers would just want to play their game right away now
>>
>>260212897
>hardest hardcore.
>wiiu party
>wiiu commercial
>full hardcore
how the fuck this commercial is hardcore?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dbGJieRaH0
>>
>>260229105
The Stamper brothers were probably the best programmers in the industry at that time, and their work ethic was beyond insane. They earned that honor.
>>
>>260229280
NoA has been pretty adamant about trying to retain the Wii's now nonexistent audience, but I think Reggie and pals are finally figuring out that they caught lightning in a bottle and need to switch gears.
>>
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>>260225852
>Why do people keep screaming "nintendo abandoned the core?

That's my favorite part

The gamecube was 100% gaming machine, and people still bitched about there being a no dvd machine
>>
>>260228172
Do you have a source for this?
I was under the impression Kensuke Tanabe directed Doki Doki Panic, SMB2 (USA), and the prototype both were based on, and Shiggy's involvement was largely just an advisory one, and didn't even extend to the prototype.
I'm also fairly certain Miyamoto was very much involved with Lost Levels' development.
>>
>>260228675
>It's slower and more tedious in the 3D games, generally.
spinattack.
>>
>>260225852
Watching movies on their consoles.
>>
>>260226063

>I think they had the right idea at the time given just making core games wasn't working too well for them. Widening their appeal to get more people in general interested in video games with the idea that maybe some of them would become 'core' gamers and make it a hobby they actively partake in was probably the best thing they could have done.

And this is probably what Miyamoto is more than a little upset about in the interview in OP's link.

I think the way Miyamoto saw it, by appealing to the more casual market and selling Nintendo to people who had never really played games before, they would become more interested in video games and then from playing Wii Sports and other stuff they might grow more interested in greater challenges and horizons that video games as an medium offered, realizing how easy it is to dip into this world of entertainment that probably seemed overwhelming or like a niche thing. I think that was a good thing, especially at the time. It got more people talking about video games as something every family should have in their own alongside their dvd collection and would prevent it from just being the domain of twenty something year old men and teenagers.

What I think Miyamoto is realizing is that while this did possibly save the company, it did not necessarily create a large new generation of gamers both young and old with a deeper appreciation for video games as an art or as a fun and healthy hobby for the whole family. Nintendo made huge bucks off the casuals, probably enough to keep the company afloat for years to come (as long as they still rule handhelds) but few of the casuals they drew in with the Wii became committed gamers. I don't think Nintendo really did anything wrong here, but I think they put a little too much confidence in the casual market to stop being so casual.
>>
>>260230024
Do you have a source for that? I don't think I can relocate the interview since it was in full moonspeak, but the fact that shiggy includes all the doki doki panic enemies and features in other mario games suggests he feels it's his creation.
>>
>>260225238
That game was horrid and its artstyle is already dated as fuck.
>>
>>260230336
>That game was horrid
You can stop saying wrong things anytime now.
>>
>>260225852
I was right there with their systems buying and playing their games. You won't guilt trip me here. It's not possible.
>>
>>260225852
Nintendo biggest fuck up was the whole 64 fiasco with sticking to cartridges and angering Sony. Just imagine if they never made that mistake.
>>
>>260221930
>Consumers want a proper 2D mario made with a real budget and production values that fleshes out the universe more rather than just being a shoestring reskin of old stuff we've seen and played before.
Horseshit, NSMB and NSMBW are just reskins yet they're Nintendo's best selling games of all time behind MKWii (not counting launch date game giveaways like wii sports and SMB). That just told Nintendo that people don't want a good Mario, just the old 2d garbage again and again.
>>
>>260230285
Interesting notion. Are casuals merely slowly budding hardcore gamers?
>>
>>260229993
DVD was a really, really big deal at the time, also the idea of consoles as multimedia machines was still fresh and unexplored, so the core audience was still largely excited about it.
>>
>>260230285
Can casuals learn /v/? Is that possible?
>>
>>260230494
there would literally be no competitors. i mean implying that Sony would still fund all those exclusives
>>
>>260230701
They'll never learn. They have to be introduced and initiated into gaming by someone that knows what they're doing. If they try to get into it themselves they'll just run into a brick wall and quit.
>>
>suddenly target x demographic because y demographic disappeared on you
>pretend you're doing it because of passion
>>
>but muh blue ocean strategy

They tried it again with the 3DS and the Wii U, and it failed. 3DS is selling because it is a Nintendo handheld, and Wii U isn't selling because it doesn't have any games. In both cases Nintendo were hoping the gimmick would attract the casuals.

Now that the casuals are gone, Nintendo is desperately trying to cater back to the core market they abandoned, even having Miyamoto jump onto the "casuals are so lame, amirite" bandwagon.

So much pandering. It's embarrassing.
>>
>>260230509
Apparently not. Look at mobile "games" damnit.
>>
>>260230479
Oh fuck right off, its overworld was the emptiest thing in the fucking industry, the game forced you to do extremely tedious bug hunts everytime you entered a new area and the wolf form was barebones as hell. The dungeons were extremely bland and tedious, especially the goron one where half the time you had to move at a snail's pace walking in the walls/roof with the magnetic boots. The bosses were even more pathetic than OoT's, especially the water one. Also it has the worst and most offensive ''twist'' in all of Nintendo's history, shitting out the new villain for yet again Ganondorf, who doesn't even resemble his infinitely better, WW incarnation and TP Ganondorf's fights are also dissappointingly mediocre and anti-climatic.

It's like the only good thing the game had was Midna, such a shame she had to be part of such aberration, not as bad as SS though.
>>
he says that while still giving you level-skip-if-you-die-too-much options in their games.
>>
>>260231073
>and Wii U isn't selling because it doesn't have any games.

Neither does the PS4 and it's selling like hotcakes. Nintnedo can still turn around the Wii U with a refocused marketing campaign, and getting Shiggy to talk about how much Nintendo loves the hardcore crowd is a good first step. After all, the only demographic more gullible than casual gamers is hardcore gamers.
>>
>>260231381
I guess you would rather him just lower the difficulty of the game entirely rather than keep it decent and give a free win for shitty players
>>
>>260231682
>the only demographic more gullible than casual gamers is hardcore gamers.

Except casual gamers aren't gullible, they don't give a fuck what these companies say, they just play what they think is fun.

Casual gamers are more hardcore than "hardcore" gamers because they actually enjoy the medium they're being entertained by

Suck it, gaymurs.
>>
>>260230586
So you're saying that the core audience was partially attracted to non-gaming gimmicks?

Interesting
>>
>>260231081
What if the people who played mobile games 5 years ago are now playing Monster Hunter while the new casuals are keeping the market afloat?
>>
>>260230332
http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2011/04/the-secret-history-of-super-mario-bros-2/
There's this.
It's all sort of hazy, but it doesn't sound like Miyamoto was too seriously involved.
>>
>>260232046
>Hardcore gamers don't enjoy games

It's always weird hearing the beliefs of people who don't know anything about something.
>>
>>260232046
casuals just play what's shown to them the most
>>
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Actually Nintendo can't satisfy Casual Gamers by the Wii U and 3DS games.
It's time to change a maketing plan and the ideal target now is the sect of hardcore gamers.
>>
>>260231132
I could tackle everything you've said individually but it's much easier to just say your taste is massively shit. TP is one of the best 3D Zeldas of all time, and had the best boss of all time (the skeleton monster thing in the sand temple with the spinner).
>>
>>260230508
Or that they just don't give a shit about the 3d marios that nintendo keeps hyping up and putting massive budgets into.

I can only imagine how awkward the shareholder meetings must be when nintendo tries to explain to the shareholders why they keep trying to make 3d mario games a thing when 2d mario games have always and continue to sell far, far more than any 3d mario game.
>>
>>260230508
Context is everything. There hadn't been a new 2D mario in ages. The last main 2D mario game on a console was Super Mario World in 1991. NSMBW came out in 2009. That's an 18-year gap. THe consumers were starving for ANY new 2D mario.

Notice how they didn't come out in droves for NSMB2 or NSMBU. They learned that Nintendo had no plans to actually flesh out 2D mario beyond factory-made horseshit and chose not to buy it in the same numbers as the first 2 NSMB titles.
>>
I STILL CAN'T READ THE FUCKING ARTICLE
>>
>>260232104
At the time, I think so. DVD players were really expensive in 2000, and the PS2 offered a cheaper alternative. The DVD player was icing on the cake to a lot of people, including the core crowd. The PS2 also had a good early lineup, so that didn't hurt things either.
>>
>>260231073
3DS and Wii U are targeting a red ocean, no idea where your blue ocean claim is coming from
>>
>>260232741
I'm just saying that for all that the hardcore claim to be enlightened or on a higher level of gaming standards, they sure fall for the same cheap gimmicks and hype that they claim the "casuals" fall under.
>>
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>>260230509
>>260230701

Video games have always suffered from much of the same syndrome as anime and comics, in that their image, at least in the West, is generally associated with anti-social behavior and it's usually seen as something for kids and nerds. Nintendo helped to sort of break that image by showing video games as something that could bring people together, could even be educational, blah blah blah. All this was good for the image of video games as a whole, I think. Before, buying a video game console was a waste of money, something you just bought for your kids as a birthday present. Nintendo helped to sell video games as something everyone should be able to enjoy and as something people could buy as a way having more family time. Dinner time at the family table would be replaced by video game time in the living room. Mom and Dad wouldn't tell their kid they were wasting their time with their new game but ask questions about it.

What Shiggy probably was hoping for was that in the process this would create new army of core gamers who not only played party games with their family or indulged in some puzzles to pass the time while commuting across town to their job, but also let's just say developed a new curiosity and appreciation for something like Zelda. But as the years went by, Shiggy probably looked around the room and saw that the only people left were a handful of newbies, a few hipsters, but by and large the same people who had already been buying Zelda for years, just now maybe followed by some other members of their family who like anon >>260231023 who they initiated into Nintendo's world. The rest of the casuals moved on to new and cheaper thrills like Candy Crush. And of course the dudebros stuck with their COD.

I don't think Nintendo will ever drop the family fun shtick, but it has probably realized that it can only truly rely on niche markets of weebs and long time Nintendo fans for brand loyalty.
>>
I forgive you Shiggy. Last year I wouldn't have imagined getting a Wii U until Zelda U. Now it has the most titles I'm looking forward to.
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Whatever, Shiggy.

I'll believe it when I see it.
So far, making Wii Music and loading up all of your consoles with shitty gimmicks isn't proving anything.
>>
>>260236297
Wii Music was 6 years ago and on a different console, anon.
>>
While I love my Wii U and am anticipating future titles, I'm a bit taken aback by the stupid thing making the controller flash so I look at ads for Mario Kart DLC.
>>
>>260236726
My point still stands.

I'll believe his newly found hardcore focus when I see him make some games that aren't babby tier shit loaded with gimmicks.
>>
>>260237315
Pikmin 3 is a much more recent game on a much more currently relevant system that he's worked on, and that upcoming Star Fox is something else he is involved in.
>>
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Right, and Microsoft also cares about the core too
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>>260237874
Microsoft only cares what the newest CoD is.
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>>260203305
from a business stand point i think it's the wrong approach

HOWEVER

it might toughen up some of the new casual gamers brought in by the Wiipocalypse and maybe a new generation of young hardcore gamer can come about
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>>260237315
shiggy won't make a halo/call of duty game
stop calling his games childish it only makes you look edgy brah
>>
>>260238613
>calling Nintendo games childish automatically means I only like blood, guts, and shootan

Quit being dense, anon
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>>260223631

>Again, nintendo doesn't give a shit what you want.

I know. I'm never going to see a new F-Zero. Why even live.
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>>260239274
>implying that isn't the rumored Gamecube game remake
>>
>casuals don't give a shit about Nintendo's newest gimmick
>w-w-we didn't want them anyway
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>>260204493
Then, anon, you are what is referred as a FUCKIN CASUAL.

Git gud faggot.
Thread replies: 401
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