This was level design in the mid 90s. This was level design when

fucking hated system shock 1 level design

>e) Man the fuck up and figure it out yourself.
people beat tower of druaga with no internet to help them

Casuals killed gaming a long time ago anon, just look at the current state of "e-sports"

What a retarded question. Developers realized the time and money could be better spent on advertising or pocketing it.

People are satisfied with simple designs.

>>255498175
>Yet despite this, any game that isn't explicitly labled as a puzzle game, and required even 10 minutes to figure out where to go or what to do in order to advance is considered obtuse, awkward, and poorly designed by most people.

It is poor design. Shit games like Metroid test nothing other than backtracking skills.

>>255498175
blame the internet.

What happened is that games went from a niche product for hobbyists made by people who genuinely love games, to a mass produced consumer product made for the lowest common denominator by multi national, multi billion dollar companies who only care about pleasing their investors.

It all went to hell so fast because games are the only medium that has shown up during the information age, where ideas can be shared with, and changed by people on the other side of the world in a matter of seconds. Music, books, and film had a much slower, more organic evolution, that gave them time to carve out a secure niche to distinguish quality work from low brow trash. Modern communication let businesses rape video games into a bloody pulp faster than anything that ever came before.

Pretty much this
>>255499369

>>255498175
I like how that map on the right is literally just a giant middle finger

>>255499214
You mean the average casual faggot gamer is satisfied with simplistic shallow game design, so long as it looks good and has a good presentation and production values.

>>255498175
OP, right map is Vivisection from the Doom II expansion set No Rest For the Living, made for the XBLA Doom release in like 2010.

>Super Metroid map is now considered complex and hard
Nigga, at the time Super Metroid was considered an easy game with a lot of hand holding compared with Metroid 1 and 2.

>>255498175
I recognize Metroid (Fusion ? lol), Doom (2 ?) but not the third map.

>>255500128
looks like system shock

>>255499927
This, all the Super games of difficult NES games, Metroid, Castlevania, Ghosts n Goblins, etc were easier to get into and beat.

>>255499927
Really, the maps get a lot less intimidating once you realize that it's a map of the entire game

>>255499365
Said nobody ever.

>>255498175
>obtuse
I see someone got their Word of the Day calendar in today.

>>255500128
>>255500257
right here
>>255499885

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>>255499751
>>255499885

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KEMlx3Ha3DQ

Not super complex, but decent Doom 2 map.

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>>255500128

>fusion

Also, the fact that La-Mulana didn't sell like hotcakes is a sign that there really aren't that many people that love the genre. It's a better Metroid game than just about every Metroid game but Super.

>wandering around looking for where to go next
>fun

Why not play a game in a foreign language for extra "fun"?

>>255498175
You forgot game magazines

>>255500807
>I want a game that directs my every step and railroads me constantly
I bet you even play games for the story

>>255500807
>having a poor sense of direction is like trying to understand a foreign language

Go cry your bitch tears somewhere else.

>>255500807
>not finding exploration fun
What's wrong with you?

looks like the map on the right is giving me the finger

>>255501235

Enjoy your backtracking simulators faggot

Exploration is enjoyable because you can use skill to do harder things sooner and get an advantage. It rewards knowledge.

With the internet people have no use for actually knowing anything themselves and it will only get worse until civilization disappears.

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>>255501475
Enjoy your interactive movies for casual console fags like you.

>>255501475
Enjoy backtracking in your life between work and home.

>>255500803
It's not better than prime.

>>255501728

Non-linear games tend to bee far more casual than linear ones.

Classicvania vs. Metroidvania is an example.

>>255501491
>get an advantage

AKA making a shitty casual game even more casual

>>255501418
Why would I care about exploring samey corridors?

>>255501946

I would agree, but it's also a vastly different game than Prime. It's definitely different than all of the 2Ds other than Super, and its certainly superior to the Prime sequels.

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Do you want to know?

>>255502112
>but it's also a vastly different game

An inferior game is also a vastly different game. But comparing 2d games and 3d games really isn't fair on the 2d ones, especially since they can still be really really fun like La-Mulana. But La Mulana still doesn't come close to evoking the same sense of wonder that prime did for me, so there's a huge point off for it.

This is my biggest gripe about games today. Discovering shit and adventure were key aspects in gaming.

I think the biggest cause of decline is we're in a world where people want instant gratification. These types of people would get annoyed with constantly checking shit online to see where to go next. Even that is too much for them.

>>255501981
>Non-linear games tend to bee far more casual than linear ones.
>Classicvania vs. Metroidvania is an example.
Classic Resident Evil vs. modern Resident Evil. Checkmate.

>>255502118
>Casuals
>Blames americans
come on now

>>255501981
>Non-linear games tend to bee far more casual than linear ones

So you're saying that Supreme Commander is more casual than Classicvania because it's non-linear.

Protip: Non-linearity is a good thing, it means you need to make more choices as to which direction you would go and more choices available = better game

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>>255498175
Those were dark times. I fucking hate old FPSes and how they make you walk around in a maze, sometimes making you stuck so you can't progress (Dark Forces and Quake 1 are the worst offenders, fuck those games).

>inb4 git gud. I am not a minotaur like you; I don't like to devote my free time to wandering around in a labyrinth.

>>255498175
Holy shit, I'm glad they aren't pushing the strategy guide bullshit for video games any more.

It's almost up there with the horseshit "timesaver" DLCs as far as money grabbing jewtivities go.

>>255502401

Modern Resident Evils are much better paced since they have less backtracking.

Non-linear games will always be backtracking simulators unless they're something like Megaman or Castlevania 3.

I don't mind those maps as long as I can see a map in game.

>>255502372
Instant gratification is a good thing anon. You're mistaking it for shallowness, but the two aren't really linked.

A game has to be gratifying right from the start right to the end, which is to say right from when you are shit at it, right to when you have mastered it.

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a game from 2009
Hell, it's just the first floor too

>>255502672
>Non-linear = better

Are you high?

>>255502965
Looks like an aspies paradise.

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>>255502894
Play the first Metroid.

>>255500257
What System Shock level is that? I think it's Research but I'm not sure.

>>255503061
Is this your response?

>Non-linear is objectively better.

So War Z or whatever they renamed it to is better than Castlevania 1?

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>>255502965
>mfw I play that game

>>255502695
>Dark Forces
>making you stuck

Oh wait, you expected some red carpet with fodder enemies or something? There's DOOM for that.

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>>255502118
Shit that hurts. So true.

>>255501981
The reason the Metroidvanias are easier than the classics isn't because of non-linearity, it's because they became action RPGs where the character's skill is more important than player skill, and thus the difficulty is adjustable. You don't have that choice in the classics, as it's all based around the player's skill, mainly timing, precision, risk assessment, and a bit of memorization. The Metroidvanias also had save points, which replaced passwords and that also made the whole thing easier. It's one of the reasons why I much prefer Richter Mode over the main game in SotN.

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>>255502989
Fuck this level and fuck the sewers in Strife.

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Fuck this dungeon

>>255502965
Yeah we still had some hope because of handhelds, but now they try making 3d shit and spend all their time on things other than gameplay.

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>>255499885
>>255500708

>>255503313
You can't compare those games because they're in completely different genres.

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>OP

>>255503497
>>>/a/

There's a reason /a/ hates spoonfeeding, and it's not relevant to /v/.

/v/'s spoonfeeding is guides.

>>255503436
>it's all based around the player's skill, mainly timing, precision, risk assessment, and a bit of memorization

This is what a game should be like.

Most non-linear games (like every Metroid or Metroidvania) only test your ability of keeping mental tabs of inaccessible areas for you to backtrack all the way after you've obtained certain power-up.

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>Lair of the Blind Ones

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>>255502989
Does this map make you angry, Doom fans?

Does it?

>>255502915
What about slower-paced games like the System Shocks or the original Thiefs? Those games are about exploration and interacting with the game world and gratification takes time and work.

>>255502965
It doesn't look so bad when you're discovering the place. Unlike that fucking map with teleporters and holes all over the place.

>>255503762
Basically:
Smart people like one type of game, dumb people like another. Smart people are a minority, get over it.

>>255503781
I don't know if I can be considered a Doom fan, but that map's pretty cool, I could totally play a handful of generated maps out of those square rooms connected to each other.

>>255503781
Yes I hate that map. I love Doom II but can't stand the industrial/city maps

>>255502965
Come on, I finished Eridanus in like 2 hours, it isn't that hard

>>255503781
>arrow pointing where to go

>>255503781
Why is this map so hated? I thought the city maps were pretty neat.

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>>255498175
I like complex level designs that are even bordering on the bullshit insane like Daggerfall dungeons you can genuinely get lost in.

But god I fucking hate Metroivanias, no game is capable of making one that isn't total bullshit and requires a ridiculous amount of backtracking and going through the same rooms over and over again because you don't know the most optimal route.

>>255503949

>smart people like games that require absolutely no skill like Metroid or any Castlevania since SOTN

>>255504217
That's the whole point of metroidvanias though
If there wasn't backtracking and exploring it'd just be a normal platformer

To use only games from the 90s is to deny more recent examples of good level design. Wow is actually a great example of good level design and the demise of said facet of games. Early dungeons like ubrs provided a sprawling, massive, non-linear environment which rewarded exploration and had certain events which made it a more dynamic experience. Alas, more casual players found the dungeon difficult (which it was supposed to be), time consuming (which it was also supposed to be), and unkind to unobservant and impatient players (which is a necessary result of the first two conditions). In response blizzard did what they do best, water down and completely destroy the wonderfully complex game and level design to appeal to the lowest common denominator

>>255504108
Lots of dead ends, ridden with enemies in every crook, some of which are unkilleable at first, it's teleporter heavy and just downright confusing.

>>255503789
The "work" IS the gratification anon. Also the combat and enemies of the first thief really sucked, hardly gratifying at all.

I'd probably bring up pikmin as an good example of a gratifying game with exploration. Right from the start you are introduced to this world and picking up pikmin is satisfying, to killing your first enemy (very pleasant sound effects, etc.) to when you are pressed for time halfway through and aren't sure if you will get every piece having to strategise and hearing the jingle of each bridge and door being completed.

An even better example of instant gratification would be arcade games, simply because they're designed for that sort of thing. Not a single person would be able to 1CC the game from the start, but it's still enjoyable right from when you are shittest at it.

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>>255504257
Nigga, this game came out 5 years ago. I just wish M2 would make an even more challenging followup.

>>255504061
There are things like that in the original games, though.

>>255503789
>>255504561
I should also add that thief was fun as fuck though DESPITE not being instantly gratifying. A good designer would be able to accomplish it without losing what made thief, thief.

>>255504551
See, if I had to pick a least favorite level it'd be Halls of the Damned.
Fuuuuuuuck that labyrinth.

>>255504561
But they're not like shooters or action games where everything is immediate, and you're constantly engaging with enemy NPCs and such. Also, if you play Thief any other way that isn't sneaking, you're not playing it right. It's not Deus Ex. And even in System Shock 2, if you wanted to make it more of a shooter like the original Half-Life or something, you needed to put some time into developing your character first, which would put off the average gamer.

So what genre's benefit the most or are optimal to be linear? Platformers?

>>255504108
>>255503781
Oh no, I remember that level, now. It is harder that the map suggests.

>>255503776
dat fucking level, holes , getting lost, underwater tunnels, spiders everywhere

>>255504315
The issue I have with it is because it's completely overused. It's a forced linearity in otherwise very big levels that don't involve you using any brain cells or deciding for yourself which path to take. I would be happy if those games gave you a choice or if that mechanic wasn't forced down your throat or so present in metroidvanias. What about rewarding extraordinary playerskill for something meaningful that helps progress you on an alternative path?

>>255502965
SJ is the exception not the rule.

Hell look at it's predecessor and successor, Nocturne and IV have garbage level design by comparison.

>>255498175
I used to dislike those big maps on old games as a kid mostly because not only were they clusterfucks but there wasnt any good landmarks etc that you could use to remember where shit is because every corridor looked the same thanks to limitations on graphics.

I'd still take those clusterfucks over modern straight line maps even though i hate backtracking to another corridor in fear that if i continue on the one im now i might miss out some epic loots on the another one.

>>255504920
Everything is always immediate. From being spotted in thief to hiding from a ghoul. Making each little step of the way exciting and interesting is part of the challenge of making it instantly gratifying.

I would actually argue that thief is far more instantly gratifying than you give it credit for.

>>255499827
The average faggot is who brings in the cash if you didnt notice.

>>255505018
But I mean that's just how those games are meant to be played man, they're designed like that
Exploring things, finding places you can't progress, finding new abilities, backtracking to old areas and exploring them further with new abilities
That's what they're about

>i finished phantasy star while only looking at a guide for 2 dungeons after 2 years of playing the game
>final and one on dezoris which had a key item

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>>255503464
Nice buffs, it'd be a shame if anything...happened to them.

>>255504108
You have to keep going up and down all the time, and backtracking too much.
And like >>255504551 said, lots of dead ends.

>>255505176
I'm not arguing otherwise, just lamenting that odious fact.

>>255499734
This explanation sounds right, until you remember that most games made by smaller devs and independent devs are also complete horseshit. It's not just a problem with it becoming a big business.

>>255498175
>c) Call a tips/help line (if the company even ran one) and pay through the nose for every minute.
I remember doing this for an alundra puzzle as a kid, good times.

It's because walking around the same location for 3 hours while nothing happens isn't ________________________fun_______.

>>255505497
I mean its a vicious cycle. Casual are satisfied with shit, and "hardcore gamers" refuse to buy shit and therefore pirate it, giving the developers literally 0 reasons to catter to them.

As long as competitive gaming exists we can at least hope for some challenging games. Lets hope not all of them go for the LoL route. But looking at incompetent monkey companies like Capcom I am not too sure.

>>255500463

Isn't a lot of that due to the 8bit games being clunky as shit?

>>255505597
Most people don't know that the original Thiefs were made by basically an independent studio with a AAA budget. It's really the dedication, drive, talent, ingenuity and passion of the people involved than how much money is poured into development and marketing and all that jazz.

>>255504871
For me, my least favourite map would actually be E4M1.

I'm not good at ressource management to begin with and that map just stresses it to the threshold.

>>255500803
La Mulana was niche as fuck
Polished and amazing, but niche

>>255498175
to be fair, is it really practical to have the same depth of level design now that games are so much more complicated on a technical level?

>>255498175
>ease of access to information
>laziness

pick one

also dis nigga rite here
>>255499369

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>>255505917
>E4M1
>UV
Thanks for the flashbacks, anon.

>>255505861
No, the platforming in the two NES CVs that matter was tight and precise, and randomization was thrown in so the player couldn't rely just on memorization but more on timing and having to decide whether that pickup is worth the trouble, etc.

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>>255506132
>E4M2
>UV
>pistol start

>>255505152
Not really. Thief strength were the vast levels and exploration, the stealth was pretty simple. The gratification came from memorizing the maps and navigating through them , the feeling of knowing were to go

>>255502118

Pretty much this, as a Great Briton my early school years were quite competitive but I started "high school" (secondary school) in '98, and the millennium became "everyones a winner!" mode. It was dreadful for high achievers like myself.
My daughters school is even worse. Everyone is quite literally a winner, kids get awards for taking part but nothing extra for being in the top 3. They even force mixed groups, so she has to deal with 10yr olds that still can't write their fucking name properly (and tutors them in her free time).

Fuck this earth.

>>255506625
Education has nothing to do with it people aren't robots you program, its the convictions of each individual

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>Play modern game
>Find a waterfall
>There's nothing behind it.

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>>255503602
>1910= music started

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>>255507637
>RPGs made after ~2004

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>>255503776

I tried replaying that game earlier in the year but forgot that the framerate is utter dogshit (slideshow in oblivion portals) I don't know how my child self managed to fully clear it.
Luckily I got a copy for the PC, ran like a dream. Got as far as said Lair without any trouble, picking up all the shit and finding new secrets.
But then I got stuck, I was certain I'd done everything and not missed any alternate routes but I was missing a key. I spent hours trying to backtrack through the repeated mazes (literal copy+paste jobs in some cases but could not find this fucking key anywhere.

I can't even be bothered to go back, I can't even check a FAQ cause I have no idea where I am or what I've collected. It's one of those games you have to start from scratch looong after you've forgotten that you just did it.

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>wahh much classic level design
>muh classic difficulty and no outside help

Bitch what you know about MYST???

What you know about the tree level nigga

>>255503781

I thought Doom II was shit. Super shotgun was sexy as hell but level design sucked dogs dick.

>>255507225
Have you met many people?

>>255507225

>people aren't robots you program

I beg to differ. As I said, I have a kid.

>>255508078
It's easy mang. Where are you stuck ?

>>255507637
>NPC "You should always check behind waterfalls."
>Literally nothing behind any of the numerous waterfalls in WoW

>>255508894
>talking to NPCs with OCD

>>255508078
Riven was fucking magical the way it all comes together. Nothing will ever come close to the depth of that puzzle.

>>255508894
There was one in Darkshore.

Was.

>>255508984
It's audio during an escort quest. You take them to a waterfall with nothing behind it.

>>255508078
The original Myst is easy as goddamn fuck, I replayed it recently and I had no trouble with absolutely anything, only the sound puzzles in that one age gave me a slight pause. Riven, however, I still find brain-blowing.

>>255508089
I liked most of the maps: 1 to 11, 14, 18, 19, 21, 22, 24-29, 31 and 32.

But Doom 1 definitely has better map design.

>>255509235
You made me sad.

>>255509546

I exagerrated, there were some really good maps there but there were also some fucking atrocious ones. I just don't recall any maps in the original Dooms 3-4 campaigns that stuck out as being a fucking chore to play.

Doom > Doom 64 > Doom II

Games should have multiple objectives and freedom to decide what order you are going to go do them in. This lets a new player do things an easier way and an experienced player challenge themselves.

Having a sprawling map is pointlessly aggravating if you still have to go get items/bosses in a set order. Linearity is better than this but it is ignoring what the sprawling map was supposed to provide in the first place.

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>>255509875
>Doom > Doom 64 > Doom II

64 doesn't nearly get enough love.

>>255509875
Agreed, Doom 1 is consistently good. Maps 12 and 13 from Doom 2 especially are chores.

>>255509875
>>255510989

Also, I like the new bestiary in Doom 2, especially Revenants and Archviles, but Pain Elementals are usually just annoying.

The perfect Doom would have levels as good as 1, enemies and super shotgun from 2.

>>255511441
>and super shotgun from 2
The SSG is one of the major problems with Doom 2, along with the level design. It's just too good, it completely ruins the overall balance of the game.

>>255511441

The new enemies seemed odd, like they were ripped from Hexen or something. Still, they mixed things up and were interesting enough- unlike some of the levels.

>The perfect Doom would have levels as good as 1, enemies and super shotgun from 2.

Agreed.

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>>255498175
There are people who actually complain La Mulana, just the first areas alone, is difficult to navigate and hard to play.

Fucking casuals.

>>255511643
I think the game makes up for it with the new enemies, and larger numbers of enemies.

Dodging and fighting arachnotrons with the SSG is still challenging.

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>>255498175

>Yet despite this, any game that isn't explicitly labled as a puzzle game, and required even 10 minutes to figure out where to go or what to do in order to advance is considered obtuse, awkward, and poorly designed by most people.


All those people are normalfags, no gamers. Normalfags only play shitty mobile games also Flappy bird or Candy Crush.
True Gamers dont need strategy guides, because they are Gamers

>>255512470
>gamer
Dear god, what a terrible thing to label yourself

>>255512470
Flappy bird is a legitimately good minimalist arcade-style game though. I know it's popular and it's considered casual, but it actually has challenge and fun (if you don't mind the repetition) and is very reminiscent of the earlier days of video games.

>>255511938

It's pretty fucking obtuse when you get to later areas though.

It's a masterpiece in retro-style modern game design.

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>>255512937
>everything about the Chamber of Birth

>>255498175

Games in the arcades, and before even being able to save the game was really possible, the enjoyment of the game was derived from just playing the game.

When saving became more prevalent. Developers made beating the game the 'fun' part of the game.

It wasn't all that bad at the beginning. It was a slow degradation. Games still required a lot of effort to beat. Grinding, planning, execution were still important. However as time has gone on, these have gone from the reason you played the game into the hurdle between you and the 'fun part' of a game.

Do you remember just how much fun you had jumping on a goomba? That has simply become an obstacle to see the end of the game, and has slowly been reduced out of the game.

It's the same kind of phenomena that has shat up RPG's over the years. With MMO's trying to deliver just the 'fun' combat and not put any of the boring stuff like 'exploration' and 'map making' and 'checking for traps' out.

As a metaphor Imagine a cook that has slowly changed his recipe for a delicious cookie to just be a big pile of sugar.

>>255512720

Except those games were limited by their hardware. Look at late SNES games. I'm sure a Samsung iGalaxy BFP9000 can run complex 16bit games.

>>255514186
What do hardware limitations have to do with whether or not a game is fun?

>>255502118
>customers overwhelmed with content (games)

So much rage. I'm lucky if there is one game worth playing in any given year, and it's been like that more than a decade.

>>255498175
I recognize Super Metroid, but what are the other 2 maps? The one on the right looks like something out of Might and Magic.

>>255517251
read the thread
doom II and System Schok

>>255498175
> doom2 and SS maps
> not a fucking overdesigned clusterfuck
Beginning of both games was good, but then it devolved into some bullshit where you can walk around for two hours unable to find shit

>>255499827
>being this autistic about video games

>>255498175
Are you insinuating that being coereced to buy a strategy guide somehow is a good thing?

>>255502965
That's the first floor of the fifth sector.

That said, that part of the game was fun.

>>255503602
>1910=music started

hahaha what

also
>any music before 21st century
>good
lol