Magic vs Technology

>>253846376
Magic > Tech

Magic will always be able to do what Tech does and more

Magitech masterrace
Fuck all you exclusive peasants

>>253846376
You what?

>>253848721

Magic takes a long time to master though, while any person can wield tech. Also, with tech you can combine efforts and build fuckhuge weapons while magic is more of a solo deal.

>>253848916
Many games don't allow both though, often you have to choose one to avoid any electrical infetterence

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>>253849183
>electrical infetterence

>>253849183
Games that don't allow both are garbage

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Tech, because "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."

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>>253849349

>garbage

magic aiding technology

not magitech, but say using magic to make a super efficient conductor for heat in a computer.

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What is magic and what is technology?
Is Numidium magic or tech?

>>253849551
Yes

>>253849583
Technically that's still magitech
There's no rule that says it has to be mostly magic or 50/50

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>>253849647

>>253849593
Yes.

Depends on the context.
I'm generally more drawn to cyberpunk and technology based settings and love to be in the know about and speculate on future technology, but given the choice between an I-Pod or the ability to shoot lighting out of my hands, Magic all the way.

>Technology v Magic
>Tech side chooses gun, Magic side chooses barrier and bolt spells
>Fight begins
>Tech shoots magic user before they can finish their incantation

There's way too many variances of magic. Like, some are instant while others require tomes, some don't yadda yadda yadda. Tech wins from sheer efficiency, a larger population could not be sustained by just pure magic. You'd have ot make slaves of all magic users to keep things moving.

Actually, that kinda seems like a good premise for a fantasy setting

>>253849593
numidium is pure tech
it works on tonal architecture
it would be like a giant gundam working by bending our laws of physics
it uses tonal resonator as it's core
and even by tes deffinition it doesn't use any aether so it's not magical
TES universe being magical universe in itself is whole another thing

>>253849989

what about an IGrimoire but the apps activate spells

and the spells have cashshops so you can pay a small amount and have the power boosted.

>>253850067
What the fuck is tech? Magic in said universes is part of the universe and it's laws of physics, dividing magic from tech is like creating some arbitrary division of
>This is Tech but this is fire, fire is it's own thing because...well it's fire
>Flamethrowers are techifire
Yes, magitech sounds as stupid as techifire

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>>253846376

Never thought someone other than me would post a Magic Vs Tech thread makes me happy.

Also magic, something a lot fail to realize is magic is just as good for taking over a galaxy as tech.

Instead of spaceships we can open direct portal. some portals temporary some permanent.

>>253850210
That's the most cancerous thing I've ever heard of
The people on alternate-universe wizardchan would be so pissed

>>253850115
>TONAL
>RESONATOR
>TONAL RESONANCE CASCADES

yeah, bullshit terms for a wizard did it

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>>253850210
Dunno. What about a spell that enables you to summon a pocket plane whore house?

>>253846376
For being a crappy game, Final Fantasy Crystal Chronicles: The Crystal Bearers had a nice setting. Magic and Technology mingled pretty nicely. I mean, you start out on an airship powered by magic that's more like a flying cruise ship than a wooden boat with a propeller.

Magic tends to far less efficient than technology and the knowledge is far too easy to lose and the wielders hardly even know the nature and exactly how it works.

Technology is all about getting the most bang for your buck. You might have an all powerful spell, but it means fuck-all when the technological army can annihilate you from the other side of the galaxy before you can even think of any harm.

>>253850275
Magic does not exist in our universe
You're acting like fiction from our universe is not from our universe
It isn't real anon
You're like one of those faggots that complains that humans are always the base for which other races are built off of when the games are made for humans by humans

>>253850275
I....I don't know what you want me to say anon, magic of the past is the science of today. When I hear technology versus magic I imagine man made devices that anyone can use against someone who has trained their body to harness the elements and blast people with hellfire.

>>253850321

Yeah I haven't seen one for a long time and I like to discuss it.

I agree with you on magic, I can see the appeal of both sides but magic never fails to get me excited.

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>>253850321
>Instead of spaceships we can open direct portal. some portals temporary some permanent.

You say that like it is exclusive to magic.

Magic and technology. Shadowrun's my favorite.

>>253850321
Magic far more volatile and inefficient. Technology would be able to do the same far more efficiently and effectively.
It would be like the equivalent of a newbie rts player going up against the best RTS player ever, you'll be outmacroed to hell and back.

>>253850392
You don't know shit about TES universe.
Aurbis is built like music with tonality and vibrations in mind, Dwemer used Tonal Architecture to alter laws of universe, no magic there, it's like us creating warp engine that warp space or something.
Magic is Aether and there is little to no Aether in any Dwemer machinatron.

>>253850530
Gundams don't exist and can't exist in our universe, even purely because human proportions don't work and are not useful at that scale
Why is it considered tech

>>253850942
Because machinery
They work in a way similar to modern or semi-modern technology

>>253850818

>oh but you don't get it they use the whicky-whacky made up clickety clacker to do the thing

too bad the real world isn't built with music, and technology is realistically based.


Fine, space wizard godheads did it, you happy?

>>253850942
Technology=Man made, engineered for a certain purpose, made of moving parts in most cases

Magic=natural, a force that can only be manipulated

Gundams are considered tech because they are built of moving parts, not conjured with a fairy wand. Are you high anon?

Magic is just technology not yet trully understood

>>253851179
No
Magic is not technology
Magic is science
There is a difference

>>253851257
Yeaht thats what I meant, had a brainfart

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How often does media portray technological super advancement to be Utopian?
How often does media portray magically supreme societies to be Utopian?

>>253851338
The reason technologically advanced societies are usually dystopian is because they're usually based on the real world and told as horror stories of what could happen

>>253846376
Magic AND Technology

*tips cybermancer hood*

>>253851142
In that case in some settings everything is magical
Lets say in Glorantha or TES even fucking horses are magical because particles work differently
Fuck even light itself is not like out universe
Is it all magic now?

>>253851172
>Magic=natural, a force that can only be manipulated
Are Water Dams magic?

>>253851594

I thought about adding both as an option but I'm sure most would pick it, which leads to less discussion. Also, in many games they don't allow both.

>>253851742
Dams use the already existing water to power man-made machinery

>>253851845
Most games that have both allow you to have both with decreased potential

>>253851179
>>253851257
but if magic is science and we use science to build technology then magic makes tech?

>This thread

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1hfGEdw03sw

>>253852112
>Science is one thing
jesus christ anon
That's like saying you build bridges with genetics

>>253852112
Magic is just not yet explained science concepts, I remember the Laundry Archives or something ahd a maxin about this, don't exactly remember right now

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>>253851594
Get out of here, Culter

>>253851862
Magic uses already existing mana to cast shit
or magical machines use existing mana
Almost all settings have magic be dependant on some matter

>>253852330
Well usually magic isn't explained because the people making the universe are lazy/unimaginitive fags

>>253852475

Not really, many times it's supposed to be mysterious and explaining in detail how it works would make it less interesting.

>>253850778

Doubt it if a mage opened a portal of demons in a major city they would have no chance.

I would say magic, because Magi-tech would still be a thing.

>>253849183
Without technology we wouldn't be able to progress as a species

Imagine magical apes though

>>253852475
wrong
and
>>253852692
wrong
actually grand majority of settings I know have magic explained

>>253852767

doomguy would disagree

>>253852692
I heavily disagree
They don't explain how it works and make it mysterious because they're too lazy to make the game complex enough to support it
If you could do actual fucking magic instead of waving a staff you found in a cave or using an ability you got for killing enough rats to level up it would be the most interesting shit

>>253852475
>>253852692
Only some cartoons or shit like that don't explain magic. I can't think of a single good RPG right now that doesn't have magic explained in some way.

>>253852767
demons are unorganized as hell and run around like headless chicken. They'll be wiped out with utter precision by a random starship from the other end of the universe without even moving.

>>253852905
>the majority does it
>that means nobody does it

I actually found it "Magic is a branch of applied mathematics", what I love in the series is that they go in deep descriptions on how most of the magic works, speaking of which I have to see the new book

>>253849424
any sufficiently arcane magic is indistinguishable from technology

>>253852767
If thats the whole crux of the mage's plan, summoning a strong being they would hardly win unless it was a horrifically strong being and that by itself would backfire unless its immune to our weapons

>>253852949
>>253852905
>>253853035

My post is >>253852692 and I think there might be some confusion. I agree that it's interesting to have magic explained, but how is it explained though? Even if it's described how you wield it and get better at it there is still often some mysterious element to it because otherwise it wouldn't really be magic anymore. Feel free to give examples where it have been explained and what that explanation was.

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Magic

You can't build non-Euclidian hell temples with technology

>>253853332
>there is still often some mysterious element to it because otherwise it wouldn't really be magic
The difference between magic and not-magic is only ever mostly semantic
Like the difference between genetics and chemistry

>>253852374
Anon, have you got your autismbux yet?

For real though, what the hell are you talking about? The difference between magic and technology is pretty obvious, what point are you trying to argue here?

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>>253853345
You can actually

>>253853648
Not that anon but what is this "obvious" point you speak of?

>>253853332
I don't have to really search for examples, again grand majority of fantasy RPG settings have magic explained fully to the point of what magic itself is because usually it ties into world creation myth or laws of said universe. Like it be it Fade in Dragon Age, or control of the weave in Planescape or any Forgotten realm setting really, or Aether in TES or even vaguely described Chaos in Witcher.
I mean we usually know that there is this matter or some code of universe, sometimes it's described to the point where you know exactly every detail of how it works with rest of universal laws.

>>253853869

I guess I haven't really been paying attention. Thanks for the reply, I'll read up on it.

>>253853869
Not him, but I kinda get what he's saying
Usually we have a very broad, general idea of how magic works, but when someone does research or experiments or something , you rarely ever really know exactly what it is they're doing and just see the end result

>>253854201
I understand that and often times it's true but again a lot of times especially in table top based settings or WRPGs magic is basically fully explained
It also helps that a lot of older cRPGs are based on Forgotten realms, where again, magic is fully explained

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Can technology be traced down as far as an animals start learning how to use tools? Because imagine a species born with magical organs but never learned how to develop a spear to hunt, a cloth to protect against the weather or a book to pass down knowledge they only exist as those sea slugs in bioshock, let alone evolving into fairies or goblins.

>>253854448
what

>>253854710
I think he meant to ask if it would still be considered magic if the species in question did not develop anything and just used its magic in the way we use our everyday tools

>>253854448
A magical based species would know how to use magic by instinct.

Go to bed Jaden, you're not lucid.

>>253853648
It's not obvious; sci-fi and magic are frequently based on materials and phenomena that don't exist or haven't been proven. They are only distinguishable in many cases by what people are used to seeing, but most sci-fi goes just as wild with a concept that it establishes as part of the setting's ruleset as magic.

Saying otherwise suggests poor critical thinking skills.

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Did someone say MagiTech!?

>tfw the Bryyonians could've just combined their science and magic instead of just going to war

>>253846376
>no option for both
Magiteck superior
Magical guns and Robots fueled by clockwork time magic

>>253855272

Because everybody would pick both.
>Why choose only one?

What about technology that is so ridiculously advanced it's like magic? Being space and time to warp, using implants to manipulate nanocomputers embedded in nanomaterials for levitation, manipulating them combust into fire or a special kind of nanoparticle that's superconductive for lightning? Animation of inanimate objects, reanimation of corpses for pseudo-necromancy, braindancing for psychic powers, localized light bending fields for invisibility, etc.

>>253854710
I should have stayed in /int/, s-sorry
>>253854932
And that species wouldn't evolve further than your average fantasy dungeon boss or a hivemind.

What a lot of the people in this thread is arguing about is how much of a stretch we could advance if we were magic-based beings and nobody mentioned the notion that prying open a clam with a rock is considered the more primitive form technology.

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Magic

>Tincan Man tries to press me
>brb turning this shit into a goddamn disco

>>253855479
Advancement is irrelevant because magic and technology are fundamentally different.

The difference is technology is dependent on a lot of parts to work like magic.

Where has magic only has "mana".

>b-but technology so advanced we create artificial mana

Then it'd just be technology.

>>253846376
B R O U Z O U F
R
O
U
Z
O
U
F

>>253855479
Super-advanced technology is just sci-fi stuff, and usually has a radically different feel
Though if you specifically try to make it feel like magic, but still have it based on tech, then there's really no difference
But it's still impossible, so it's kinda dumb to talk about, plus any fictional universe that has that without just being a sci-fi game with powers would be a clusterfuck

>>253855789
Nobody is arguing about that
And that's a huge leap of logic to think that would happen

>>253855863
lets say Dr Manhattan
he is so strong that he is fucking magical
he was born from bullshit science
is he magic? because if they would call him energy elemental king or something and would use the same powers he would be considered magical

>>253855998
Just thought I could clear up my butchered english

Also the threade gives me the apple and orange vibe but I can't put my fingers on

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>>253849183
>any person can wield tech.

You imply this is a good thing.

>>253856120
Manhattan would still get rekt by Gandalf

>>253856120
Well, it's all bullshit to begin with
But I would say he used science to become a god
I guess that could be magic if you want to call it that

>>253856231

Imagine you were in a universe where magic and futuristic technology exists. Considering you're on 4chan right now, do you really think that you would be disciplined enough to study years and years to be able to become a novice magic user? Or would you like to have the option to just pick up a device and wreck some niggas instead?

There will be cases where that is a negative point yes but there are many positives as well.

>>253856240
Gandalf has no stable power
because Tolkienverse magic is absolutely unexplained and is basically blessing of one God who is Tolkiens version of Christian God and mages are basically Angels

>>253856120
No?

He and everyone else from botched experiment # 4534543534 are just a result of science/technology.

You're using noun and adjective interchangeably now.

>>253856240
Gandalf can't even fucking do magic
He's just an old guy that knows people
Sometimes he uses his staff for party tricks, but that's about it

Guys
What if
Guys listen

If the world operates fully in magic, like what if people fed their kids with instead of plastic bottles they use some magical nob milk mushroom or that instead of a hardron collider we had an actual black hole being contained by some bullshit force field. This plus if our technology never evolved past Rube Goldberg machine phase, would you still stick with technology?

>no using both
>being this much pleb

>>253856838
Like a species who fed on Mana?

We're getting into Mushishi territory now.

>>253856838
The idea is what you would choose between in a fantasy universe
Not a version of the one we already live in
In most fantasy universes, the extent of technology is complex clockwork robots instead of a computer

I voted neither. raw power and speed, thanks very much

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>>253856838
>hardron collider
>hard ron collider
>hardon collider

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>All these votes for technology

You guys own your own pair of steampunk goggles and tophats?

Any sufficiently advanced technology etc etc it's probably been posted like a dozen times already

>>253857218
>Anything I don't like is fedora

If magic were real it wouldn't be magic, it'd be physics.

>>253857218
Technology is the more rational choice given the entry-level is everyone because we assume retard-friendly standard.

Where as magic is skill/patience/practice etc.

And depending on the hypothetical, stability is also a factor.

>>253857218
>technology can only be old as shit

>>253857441
>if magic were real we would call it something else
Who are you to decide what fields of science are called?

>>253857578
He's not wrong since anti-matter is fucking magic right now but we know it's out there.

>>253857487
Well technically, in any logical world, both magic and tech would have both user friendly parts and parts you have to work for
Like how tech already is in real life

>>253846376
Tech when it's fun abstract shit like quantum theory fuckers that manipulate probability.
Magic when it's able to do really mundane stuff like being able to see in the dark or make small flames and anyone can use it but most prefer to not use it or use it sparringly because it's tough to do and beyond fucking dangerous.

>>253857745
That's not what I mean
All chemistry is physics, but all physics is not chemistry
Which is why we call it chemistry and not physics

>>253856754
>>253856783
Gandalf is basically an angel and for the duration of LOTR he never went higher than 30%

>>253857771
I'm literally autistic and get way too upset when something breaks (even if it's worthless) so I've always wanted reparo.

>>253846376
Technologicaly advance magic

>>253857975
>magically advance technology

>>253857013
Mushishi is still too advanced because people knew how to make boats and grow crops, but yea the implication is that a universe that operates fully in mumbo jumbo down to a single speck would choose magic over tech because their tech only exists in their manga written in bug ink and magical papyrus.

>>253857882
>30%
nigga he was only in the single digits throughout the entire collected works of Tolkien because if he went above that he could have destroyed the entire world.

>>253857218
Yes, you can bring your bath robe and stick you found in your backyard and we'll have a party.

>>253858167
Well one world's magic is another world's technology.

But yeah, it just comes down to how you look at it.

>>253857864
Actually I was going to write physics/chemistry, but then some faggot would argue (rightly so) that it could be part of biology as well, and decided to remove everything after the slash.

>>253856838
I fucking LOVE Rube Golderg machines

>>253857745
Anti-matter like dark matter is just one of those things that exist because they make the math that we're using to figure out the universe work.

These things have to exist to make a lot of stuff fit, cause if they don't huge swaths of science as we know it will have to be thrown out or redone from scratch.

>>253858315
And that's still missing my fucking point
I wasn't saying magic is chemistry
I was using it as an example

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Why not both?

yep

>>253858432
I wish the higgs was dis-proved because then it would mean that most of the shit we knew was just plain fucking wrong.

With it's discovery we've just confirmed what we've assumed for like a century or something.

>>253858181
>implying bombadill wouldn't have slapped his shit but good.

>>253858478
That looks retarded
What kind of idiot would use a living creature like that
Or use those kinds of guns
It's so inefficient, and also not really magic

>>253858478
>You will never live on Armored Dragon Keep while floating through the universe Galaxy to Galaxy meeting and fighting other keeps

>>253846376
Magitech
Not even going to skim the thread or ctrl-f. Just going to fucking post this and peace out because it's the only correct answer.

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Should you explain technology when writing sci-fi /v/?

Would that ruin the magic?

>people voting for tech when they already have it in real life

>>253858708
Magitech was the second fucking post
You didn't even have to scroll down

>>253858447
They could rename and reorganize all the fields for all I care. In a universe where magic works the "magic" would be part of the laws of the universe and would be studied by the appropriate fields. As I have never visited such universe, as far as I can recall, I do not know what fields they they use.

>>253850275
Tech is anything you can build with physical materials that has no supernatural component.
Magic involves breaking Newton's Laws, specifically the conservation of matter and energy.

If you're creating or destroying matter or energy, you're doing magic. If you're merely converting one to the other via physical processes, you're doing tech.

>>253858781
No, I love it
I mean, obviously you can't explain it in intricate detail using only shit that exists in the real world, because if you could do that then it's not fictional, but yeah, explain the bullshit terms with more science combined with bullshit turms to your heart's content

>>253858781
Depends on your knowledge of the subject and how far you want to go.

Basic pieces that common-sense the rest is fine for most people.

If you have the dedication and knowledge to thoroughly explain everything down to the 1&0's, then sure.

Wormholes are still fucking magic and beautiful to me, even if Science has already explained how they would work in theory.

>>253858634
>It's so inefficient
Wrong. It uses magic, so it's alright. They just look like normal guns, but they aren't

>>253858781
It depends on the story and if it's ultimately worth it. Something with more hard scifi like Star Trek should explain it. Space opera or soft scifi like Star Wars doesn't need to, though Mass Effect's explanations were really interesting since they tied into many of the common themes in the games and were ultimately good world building in a game centered on world building.

>>253858889
In a universe where "magic" exists, it would be its own field of science
Why do you think we have divided fields of science in the first place, and not just one unified "Science"

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Was interesting in FFXII, where magic and technology were almost the same thing

>>253858781
Yes, if you're just going to make up technology and not explain it you might as well just use magic instead since then no one will question it.

>>253858634
>not really magic
How is it flying then? When you can't explain it, it's magic. Or quantum physics, if is sci-fi.

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>>253846376
>all this tech

It is truly the worst of times.

>>253859012
Oh, so they just -look- huge and unweildy and a huge potential hazard on the same level as flying with a cape?

>>253859148
>How is it flying then?
It's got wings don't it.

I don't think they're for decoration.

>>253858791
>wanting to dumb down technology to steam tech in favor of shitty magic missle

>>253858934
>tech adheres to physical laws
>magic defies physical laws
yeah
a good example would be like... a light spell that makes a room bright without using photons. so you can see perfectly as if a bright light was in the middle of the room, but to everybody else in the room it's still dark because only your eyes can see the "magic photons"

>>253859207
It's magic. fuck off sciencefag

>>253859148
Bees are now magic
Bikes are also magic

>>253859320
Bees have wings though

Why are bikes magic?

>>253850321
That's the Combine invasion in HL2.

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Tech strong!

>>253859262
You are now aware that "sight" is actually a sense of touch that is keenly sensitive and reacts to the subtle pressure of E/M radiation.

>>253859294
That's not even fucking science
It's common sense
Like how you shouldn't try shooting fireballs at something underwater

>>253846376
Magic and technology need to work together. Why master a flight spell over years of training when a simple fire spell can power a hotair balloon? Power-armor mechs are unrealistic? Not with magic power sources they aren't. Use magic to become the video game you love playing. Space travel could be a thing if we could create fresh air, food, and water from nothing.

>>253859485
magic "fire"

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>>253859253
Explain penguins.

>>253859261
>wanting technology in a game when you can have magic

There's plenty of games based on our world and its level of technology you know. Most FPSs are just that. The most recent one I can think of is Watch Dogs.

>>253859485
A magic fireball isn't extinguished by water, because it's not actually fire. It's just a ball of burning "FUCK YOU" that even turns water into ash.

>>253859365
>bees have wings
>but the original thing you were talking about doesn't have wings
Nope, that's it, I'm fucking done

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Isn't magic just unexplaned science?
if magic can be studied does it become science?
either way Gun>>>>gay magic

>>253850818
>urbis is built like music with tonality and vibrations in mind, Dwemer used Tonal Architecture to alter laws of universe, no magic there,

Ok, so if it's purely tech and not magic, why don't you build one in real life then? You know, with your 'Tonal Architecture'.

>>253859485
Who are you, fun police? Or some kind of international expert in magic?
Well I CAN shoot fireballs underwater, because they are magic

>>253859549
Their wings are vestigial, they're more like flippers now.

>>253859593
I think you're confusing me with someone else, I was saying the dragon had wings so it could fly.

>>253859547
Depends on how the magic works
But that's generally how it works

>>253859638
In the real world, yes.
In a fictional world, magic is something that cannot be explained by science. It may have rules, but those rules fly in the face of mundane experimentation.

>>253859638
Get the fuck out of here, Arthur C. Clarke. It's magic vs. tech.

>>253859676
>I was saying the dragon had wings so it could fly
And I was arguing with that same person
I was replying to the same fucking post you replied to

>>253859648
>Ok, so if it's purely tech and not magic, why don't you build one in real life then? You know, with your 'Tonal Architecture'.

1000 years ago

Ok, so if it's purely tech and not magic, why don't you build a computer in real life then? You know, with your "circuitry".

>>253859638
That manga is so shit. Hurr NIPPON STRONG , MURRICA WEAK AND STOOPID, NEED GLORIOUS JSDF

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>>253859063
>Telekinesis at 8:00 am and Necromancy at 3:00 pm
>Animal linguastic for summer class

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>>253846376

>>253846376
What, no option for both?

>>253859721
You must have really shit taste in fictional universes

>>253859804
What jews have to do with this?

>>253859023
>>253858781
I want to echo the point about Mass Effect. What they did with that game was start with one bit of fictitious bullshit, Element Zero. But once they established its properties, they could extrapolate that to explain how all the eezo-based technology worked. The weapons, the force fields, the propulsion systems. That was why it was so interesting to read about, I think. It all made sense once they established what Element Zero was.

Damn shame about the last two games.

>>253859804
it's worth reading if only for the stomping of silly savages
and to be fair america fought a god

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>>253846376
>Not combining the two.

>>253859852
>Implying they would teach necromancy at school
>Implying you wouldn't have to look that shit up yourself by lurking on wizardchan

>>253859638
>Experiment 1: Drop some sodium into a canister of chlorine gas.
>Result: Light, Heat, Salt

>Experiment 2: Drop sodium into magic gas
>Result: Living talking mouse that remembers when it was sodium.

>>253859950
Was it Izanagi?

>>253859676
Same goes for dragons. Flippers are actually dragons who got tired of killing knights with more armor than brains.

>All the people that think Numidion isnt magic

The heart of Lorkhan is PURE magic. Without it Numidion wont have any power.

Yes the shell of Numidion is made of technology but the core itself is Magic

>>253859804
I love it just for the sheer attempt at trying to introduce both worlds together, you're no fun

>>253860060
If you have wings that are roughly the size of your body I don't think they're vestigial.

>>253859993
>The only way for a wizard to become a Necromancer is to hit the age of 30 without losing his virginity.

>>253859860
because fuck you pick a side

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>>253859950
Naw man, I read plenty of it but I stopped since I just can't handle that sort of shit. I generally dislike any sort of patriotic media, but when it happens so blatantly with Japan, it pushes me over the edge

Now here's a work I enjoy and an author I can actually respect.

>>253860205
Nah man, that's how you become a scientist

>>253860205
You forgot the most important part, anon.
>On the wizard's 30th birthday, as the clock chimes midnight, they must bust in the corpse of a dead relative.

>>253859995
>Experiment 1:
>observe sub-atomic particles taking note of being observed and changing patterns right before our eyes
>Result Magic gave Technology a hugging

>>253859860
This thread wouldn't be as engaging if we held hands

That's why you're on vee

>>253860292
If you could actually observe such a thing, that'd be neat. But while the physics of the very small is indeed mysterious, there's little to be gained by attributing "magical" behavior to them.

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You say magic needs no explanation, but isn't it great when authors do add reasoning to magic in their universes?

For example, I could say the source of magic is souls within people and with age, experience, strength etc your soul increases in power. and the more people you kill to absorb their souls, the more powerful your magic manifests and stuff

Or you could just do a Harry potter and be all like, you have wizard blood randomly you can do magic

>>253859792
So you're trying to say that in the future people are going to discover 'Tonal Architecture' and be able to manipulate reality?

The Numidian was meant to use the heart of Lorkhan to work anyway wasn't it?

>>253850653
that is why I find the whole tech vs magic argument funny
in pretty much any sci-fi universe there reaches a point where tech can end up doing pretty anything magic can do plus more

>>253859549
What's there to explain? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9dfWzp7rYR4

>>253846376
Magitech. Like in warhammer

>>253859852
What is ebisu's magic

>>253860205
No. To become a Necromancer you have to have sex with dead bodies for 30 years

>>253860290
Oh fuck, that's reminding me of a story someone told in one of those 'that kid' threads

>>253860459
>but isn't it great when authors do add reasoning to magic in their universes?
not really. Tolkein did it right "it just werks" but with some limitations

>>253859063
The very nature of magic would make it run COUNTER to science.

It has not explainable laws or understandable reasons for doing anything. It just does it.
Any science that is built around it will just be a shitload of black boxed information being glued together dumbfuck style.

in my opinion..the closest science will ever get to magic and understanding it or creating a system around it is...theory. .At best.
It'll probably even be so antiethical to science that it'll be relegated to arts philosophy and theology.

>>253860603
But like, where do you draw the line with the limits. and why are the limits in place

>>253860447
Fuck sub-atomic physics, shit blatantly disregards science for its own and fucks up everything we know.

>>253860495
Lizard transformation

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Vote for Duke

>>253860459
I LOVE it when magic is explained, or when it has clearly defined rules and limits. Settings where you can just "abracadabra" and whatever you want happens are boring as fuck.

>>253860459
That's great
Though in a game it had better be backed up by gameplay
I fucking hate when a game explains how magic works, but I just learn how to summon meteors by killing enough people to get to level 30

>>253860459
I'm glad I'm not alone in this, makes me feel better about my shitty lore and obsession with no logic-gaps.

>>253860703
simple, you can wear yourself out or destroy everything around you, that makes the user want to be more careful with how they handle their magic

>>253860696
>It has not explainable laws or understandable reasons for doing anything. It just does it.
What fucking shitty universes do you enjoy

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>>253860459
>playing game
>reading tid bits of lore from books scattered around
>it actually bothers explaining that undead uses mana to create air vibrations to communicate

>>253860696
>If magic actually existed, it would still be unexplainable
holy fucking shit anon you can't be this retarded

>>253846376
why not both, why not have technology that shoots magic?

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>>253860816
Yeah I do like the idea that its very taxing on the body.
I liked it in mass effect how using their blue magic bullshit powers used loads of calories and needed to be replenished, just like pushing your mind to the limits does

>>253855118
you mean magipunk

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>>253860948
>Think that's really neat
>Find out you can't actually do anything with that information

>>253860948
In what game do undead do that?

>>253861071
>technology is now punk
No anon, he is referring to a thing, not a style of thing

>>253860459
I liked how they explained it in the Fionavar Tapestry.

A mage doesn't use his own energy to cast spells. Instead, he forms a permanent bond with another person, known as his source. The mage's spells use his source as a battery. A source's energy can be replenished over time just by having them eat and drink, same as the more mundane energy their body needs to operate, but if the mage withdraws too much power from his source in a short time he may fry the connection between them (permanently rendering him powerless) or even kill the source.

>>253861237
magipunk refers to technology that is powered by magic retard

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Are Stands magic

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>>253846376

Play Arcanum

>>253860717
If someone named Dunkelzahn ever ran for president, I'd vote for him.

>>253861298
That's incredibly specific
And clearly not what he was talking about

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Both.

Star Wars was also both, until Episode I fucked it with that stupid midichlorian stuff.

>>253861232
Why do you think WoW had a Lich King

>>253861315
Stands are some sort of spirit bullshit or something
So yes

>>253846376
actually a bit of magic in the tech is my favorite scenario, like the dwelmer in TES.

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From an artistic point of view, have any games succeeded in making magic-tech designs that aren't retarded looking?

I cant think of any. imo its either magic or tech costume design, not both

>>253861417
except it was

>>253861365
holy FUCK how did i miss this whale? what area do you find this in?

>>253861468
I always forget that the Force is, or was, magic.

>>253861557
No
Magitech refers to a combination of magic and technology
Not specifically using magic as a power source

>>253861510
>dwemer
>a bit of magic
>a bit
everything the dwemer made was powered by magic of sound

>>253861365

I have though. Played through it once and plan to do it again.

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>A magic setting where technology is mistaken for ancient magical weaponry or monsters
BEHOLD, YE SAVAGE BARBARIANS, WITNESS OUR BIRD OF METAL IN ALL IT'S MAJESTY

>>253860845
That works for the Stalker universe. The Zone and its artifacts behave in ways they should not, according to that universe's known science. That means that the science got it wrong, just like Newton got it "wrong" despite Newtonian physics working in a human-sized scale.

>>253861623
But in what way could you combine them other than power sources? A gun that spouts incantations and mimics hand signs to cast at faster than humanly possible speeds? Actually, that's kinda how demon summoning works in SMT, computers perform summoning rituals at the speed of blast processing.

>>253861539
Dwemer machines were p.cool

>>253861298
Magipunk is a style or genre, that's what the 'punk' part is for you faggot.

Why not both? you faggot.

>>253861872
You could combine them in any way you can imagine
You just have a shitty imagination

>>253861575

On one of the islands I wanna say, don't quite remember where.

>>253861903
Actually I had those in mind when I referred to retarded looking designs.

Those were fucking dumb

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>>253861505
Are spins Magic?

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Both is always the best solution

>>253861924
no it isn't, it's a setting where X is powering Y, like the more common steampunk where technology is powered by steam

>>253862029
Well jesus died for our spins
So yes

>>253861872
You could do weapons with magic runes on them, and such. Like, instead of blue LEDs you could use an ice rune to keep your laser gun chilled so you can fire it more without overheating.

>>253846376
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic

>>253861505
is ripple power magic?

>>253862025
I liked them because they had the primitive feel and actually felt in place when I came upon spooky abandoned ruins.

But if you're talking pure aesthetics then I really don't know since that shit is highly subjective and few games really concentrate that much on explaining shit, let alone executing it.

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>Not posting technology so ancient, arcane, advanced, and abstract that it is perceived as magic.

What scum ITT

>>253862074
holy shit you're retarded
I guess dystopian sci-fi technology is powered by "cyber" then

?spin? is technique, not magic

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>seriously thinking of combining them
YOU FOOLS!

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>>253862089
thanks for playing a long

>>253862156
No it's yoga

>>253862156
No, it is clearly based on bullshit and not magic
Bullshit is a clearly understood field of "whatever I want it to mean I'm the author I can do anything", a subset of particle physics

>>253862214
>Not posting technology so ancient and eldritch that it can barely be considered magic or technology and not some force beyond these things

>>253862413
But that's only tech. Aliens are not, by definitions, magic.

>>253862438
>a long

What is the third force beside Magic and Technology?

Metaverse?

>>253846376
Both. Arcanum fuckers.

>>253862538
sounds like magic to me

>>253862694
Curry.

>>253862721
Arcanum isn't both
It's one or the other

>>253862694
Friendship.

>>253862235
no that's just sci-fi

>>253850725
How about a mecha that runs on magic and technology.
Introducing the artificial deity, the Deus Machine:
Demonbane

>>253862829
>cyberpunk doesn't exist because I said so
>those other things aren't just "fantasy" because I said so

>>253862694
power cosmic

>>253862618
Bydo were created from a combination of physics, genetic engineering, and black magic.

>>253862694
Faith
Though that kinda ties into magic most of the time

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>>253862890
cyberpunk isn't about the technology though, since it's purely sci-fi with an added dystopian setting, shouldn't be allowed to be called punk.

>>253846376
>Implying the distinction is not a total bullshit.

There never was any difference in methodology between magic and science as we commonly understand it in our world, when people seriously tried to practice magic, as opposed to running long cons. The former just failed to work.

If magic does work, it will inevitably be incorporated into technology.

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>>253846376

Magic. The problem with tech is that you have to try to explain it, and eventually the more you peel away the pseudoscience the more obvious it becomes that it's bullshit.
So with tech;
"This works along a loose interpretation of this scientific principle, which kinda works if you don't really understand these scientific principles, as long as we bend the rules of these scientific principles, but ultimately it's bullshit."
And with magic;
"It's bullshit, who cares."

>>253862694
Color from a mantis shrimp's eye

>>253860971
No you fucking idiot. You would know how to inact it or have a basic understanding of how it works. But if you know exactly what went itnto it and how it works then it wouldn't be fucking magic. It would just be an arm of science.
You fucking idiot.

>>253863090
>Cyberpunk isn't about the technology though since it's purely sci-fi
>sci-fi isn't about the technology

>>253863185
depends if it's soft sci-fi or hard sci-fi

>>253863129
>there are still colors we haven't seen yet
>trying to comprehend a whole new color on the wheel

>>253863090
But steampunk(and other -punks by extension) is literally a variant of cyberpunk
Cyberpunk came first
You shouldn't talk about shit you're too lazy to even google

>>253863169
AND THAT'S WHAT I'M SAYING
IF MAGIC WAS REAL IT WOULD BE SCIENCE
BUT THAT DOESN'T MEAN IT WOULDN'T STILL BE MAGIC

I enjoy settings where magic and tech are equal in terms, and are always pitted against each other in some way.

I drove my magitech vehicle to work today. The primary apparatus for it's function is the burning of magic fuel.

When I got home I opened up my Magic Codex, by activating its magic circuits and powering it with mana (transmitted to my Codex through wires from a Mana Generation facility running on Magic Fuel) I executed several spells on top of each-other so I could connect to this forum and, using a Magic Interface Device, I am now transmitting this message to you.

Humans also have some traces of Magic Energy flowing through them, but it's rarely more than enough to activate a rudimentary light spell when connected to a proper Magic Interface Device. Top Magicians have even discovered that our brains operate using Magical Energy, firing off minuscule bursts of magic in order to transmit information!

>>253863408

If it's science, it's not magic. Science and tech covers the natural, not the supernatural.

>>253860696
>It has not explainable laws

In at least 90% of setting magic works predictably, thuse having explainable laws by definition.

>or understandable reasons for doing anything. It just does it.

No difference whatsoever from the four main interactions that bind our universe together. If you think that there is a grander explanation behind electricity flowing through your PC beyond "It just does it", you don't understand how the world works. Science just studied in real depth what exactly the electromagnetic ineraction does, to the point where it can predict what it will do in applicable situations.

But the same apply to any magic that work in a predictable way and allows for repetition of results. Which is, again, the case in 90% of settings.

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>>253862757
No wonder Japs are so advanced

>>253863576
Holy fucking shit
Magic is not a synonym for supernatural
And if supernatural shit was real, it would be called supernatural shit even though it is explainable by science
This is why we call genetics genetics, and not "science", even though it falls under science

>>253863773
>it would be called supernatural shit even though it is explainable by science
Okay I kind of got caught up in being mad so I didn't think about this before I said it, but I was just using it as an example, the idea still applies

>>253863408
That's exactly what it means you stupid bastard. If it was as explainable as steam technology or electronics then what we see as magic would simply be another arm of science.

Magic in a universe has to be utterly unexplainable and ephemeral to stay magic.

>>253863668
>In at least 90% of setting magic works predictably, thuse having explainable laws by definition.

Loose rules =/= unbreakable laws of physics.
That is stupid.

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>>253863773
What would the supernatural be classed at?

>>253864023
If it was explainable that doesn't mean it wouldn't be called magic
It means magic would have a different definition than what you think it means

>>253863331
>earliest edition of steampunk before the term was coined
>"The Aerial Burglar" (1844)

>earliest edition of cyberpunk before the term was coined
>"The Stars My Destination" (1956)

sure m8, steampunk was named after cyberpunk yes, but it was mainly coined in order to give a proper name to a genre that didn't exist

Clarke's Third Law, you motherfuckers.

>post about this in a thread the other day
>some anon replies two hours later with a shitpost saying I could have explained what I meant instead of trying to "sound smart"

REFERENCING A RULE FROM A POPULAR AUTHOR MEANS I AM TRYING TO SOUND SMART
BOY, I NEVER KNEW THAT!

>>253864147
Is that supposed to be a question

>>253864023
What is explainable by science depends very much on the state of the science.
Say you went back to middle ages and took your mobile phone with you. Would it not seem like magic to them? And yet it's not magic and we can explain it.

We come back to the Clarke's Third Law:

Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

>>253864147
spiritual

>>253863576

You're mistaking magic and religion. Magic is just a way to control natural forces that does not work in our world, but can work in fantasy worlds. It is generally based on the exact same assumptions as science: repeatabilty of results and harnessing forces of nature for your own benefit. Even in settings where a magician must suck dicks of higher being to accomplish anything, repeatability of results generally is still true.

>>253863773

>Magic is not a synonym for supernatural

No, but all magic is inherently supernatural.

>And if supernatural shit was real, it would be called supernatural shit even though it is explainable by science

No. If it's explainable by science, it's not supernatural. Only the natural world can be explained by science.

>This is why we call genetics genetics, and not "science", even though it falls under science

That doesn't make any sense and is dumb, considering genetics is a science. You could call genetics science and not be wrong, you'd just be vague.

>>253864163
>If it was explainable that doesn't mean it wouldn't be called magic

Look goddamnit.
In every single sci-fi in existence, phenomenon that we consider supernatural is not called magic. Unless it's magitech stuff.

Magic has to be unknowable to the rules of what we know as science to stay magic, else it's just a fucking sci-fi cosplaying in a wizard hat and coat.

IT JUST WERKS is how magic works.
THIS IS HOW IT WORKS AND IT'S REAL WORLD PARALLELS TO ACTUAL SCIENCE is how sci-fi works.

>>253858781
That is hard science fiction.

Such as http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revelation_Space_universe

>>253864225
unless they are actually using magic staff, robes and everything

>>253864241
yes

>>253864404
But many universes do explain their magic, some to a ridiculous degree
That doesn't make it sci-fi
You sound like someone who has never been exposed to fantasy outside of Tolkien

>>253864267
Don't give me that fucking sufficiently advanced science bullshit.
In this fucking argument the phenomenon of magic does not have a super science explanation. it just is.

Magic has to stay unknowable. The moment that it is 100% explainable with pseudo science it becomes sci-fi masquerading as fantasy.

>>253864394
>No, but all magic is inherently supernatural.
Unless it was real
Then it wouldn't be supernatural
It would just be natural
>That doesn't make any sense and is dumb, considering genetics is a science. You could call genetics science and not be wrong, you'd just be vague.
That doesn't make any sense and is dumb, considering magic is a science. You could call magic science and not be wrong, you'd just be vague.

>>253864502
I stay away from that bullshit now.

>>253864609
Not that guy but it is not explained with "psuedo" science. Highly advanced technology would explain "magic" and it would not be "pseudo".

>>253864609
You're arguing semantics
Literally who cares

>>253864609
The moment is something stops being explainable it stops being believable.

>>253864567
There is explaining the phenomenon and being very anal about how it works then there is explaining how it works at a fundamental natural level like any other naturally occuring phenomenon that can be exploited are harnessed.

You read like someone who thumbreads through a handful of genres on the best sellers list

Magic =/= science or vice versa.
Are you people retarded?

>>253864120
>Loose rules =/= unbreakable laws of physics.

Again, if you think that science never plays fast and loose with the rules or makes gigantic assumptions to make the results of observation fit with theories, you simply don't know enough about it.

But from a practical standpoint there is still no difference between rocks falling down and certain combination of gestures and words producing fireballs. As long as both happen repeatably. The fact that no one knows from where the power for fireball is drawn won't harm magic any more than inability of newtonian physics (or current relativistic physics, for that matter) to explain the results of observing the universe.

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>>253864823
all i can think off while reading your posts is this

>>253864906
In a universe where magic exists, it is science
Science explains how the universe works
If magic exists in a universe, that makes it science
It is only not science to you because magic does not exist in our universe and you're an idiot who doesn't think we're talking in hypotheticals

>>253864950
I have only made one other post regarding Clarke's Third Law.

See >>253864225

If you wish to discuss this concept civilly, by all means, we can.

If you wish to dredge up unrelated post screencaps for whichever fallacious argument you intend to produce, do not waste our time.

In the world of magic, there is a telepathy forum named \?\.
The greatest legen of said forum is that, if you were to live to the age of 30 without ever having sex, you would become a scientist, a mythical being able to understand the fundamentals of existence and use them to create so called "technology".
It is also said, if you were to reach the age of 50, you could even become a professor.

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Magic is bullshit
Tech in most fiction is just bullshit in a metal casing

>>253864404
>Explained magic is Sci-fi
Does this mean unexplained sci-fi technology is magic?
Is Star Trek actually fantasy?

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>>253865081
>magic
>the use of paranormal methods to control the elements

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>>253865248
>you will never have your bones infused with bullshitium

>>253864906
>There is explaining the phenomenon and being very anal about how it works then there is explaining how it works at a fundamental natural level like any other naturally occuring phenomenon that can be exploited are harnessed.

But there is no actual difference between the two.

Or, depending on what you mean by "fundamental natural level", science gives practical results just fine without getting that deep. Because our science certainly has no explanation why the four fundamental interactions or subatomic particles, work as they do, why their strength is as it is, etc. It just accumulated a really huge body of observations on their properties, that allows to exploit them.

>>253865081
>mag•ic (?mæd? Jk)
>the practice of using various techniques, as incantation, to exert control over the supernatural or the forces of nature.

>>253865353
>Is Star Trek actually fantasy?

Hmmm... yes?

>>253865247
>he still believes in the words of the sage

>>253865081
so what you're saying is that when i play dark souls i'm not actually using scrolls to cast different types of magic or pyromancies, i'm just using a highly advanced science?

>>253865562
>various techniques
>also known as "fucking anything"
>supernatural
>also known as "not real" or "I don't understand"
>forces of nature
>also known as "fucking anything"

>>253865707
Technically, yes. I am glad you understand, anon!

>>253865774
exactly

>>253855101
Science FICTION uses applicable science to create a FICTIONAL setting. In this way they can be explained as something that, in theory, COULD exist but doesn't for a number of reasons.

Science FICTION takes theoretical applications of technology to a level of improbability, but not complete impossibility, save for some cases.

Magic is a completely fictional force that operates entirely independent of anything in our reality. It is pure fantasy that operates within the confines of a fictional world, using fictional laws, operations, and executions and will never exist in the way it is described.

Trying to say that they're the same because there's a few mediums out there then take Science Fiction to a level of near impossibility is just stupid.

Travelling through a black hole into another universe is a theoretical improbability, but it could still happen due to the way we understand physics.

Waving your hands around and blabbering words in some forgotten language will never manifest a ball of flames from nothing. Ever.

Show me a magical society that could take on The Culture from the Ian Banks series of the same name.

You can't.

>>253865780
>There is a universe where chemistry isn't real
>There are autists arguing about a similar topic on an alternate version of /v/ RIGHT NOW where they say chemistry wouldn't be called chemistry if it was real, it would just be "science"

>>253864823
>Not that guy but it is not explained with "psuedo" science. Highly advanced technology would explain "magic" and it would not be "pseudo".

We're talking about the definitions of genres here stupid. Sci-fi that isn't hard is oft nothing but pseudo scientific gobbledy gook. The only thing that seperated ST-TNG from being pure fucking fantasy is a few scientific terms, artificially FUTURISTIC looking technology that looks like and is portrayed as working right and half arsed explanations of how patently supernatural shit worked.

>>253864837
That's literally what we've been arguing this entire time.

>>253864839
We have no idea how talking works.
Go look it up if you don't believe me.
Do you stop talking or believing in talking because no one has any real clue as to how or what that shit works?
Magic is a phenomenon that exists because of the child like but very human belief in something that defies explanation.