>>65043960 >Rey is Luke's daughter Guaranteed because the lightsaber calling to her makes no sense otherwise.
>Snoke is Plagueis That one's a bit messier. Your pic related is actually concept art of an old Kylo Ren design, and that dude on the ground behind him is Finn, so it really isn't evidence at all. Snoke is definitely old, saw the Empire come to power, and his leitmotif is very similar to the opera house music played in Episode III when Palpatine talks to Anakin about Plagueis. There's also a ton of pottery points there, because it's highly suggested that Plagueis created Anakin through the Force, so his hypothetical confrontation with the Skywalker line is high drama territory.
But bringing prequel content into the new trilogy seems really unlikely because Disney's been doing everything in its power to pretend the prequels never happened. Why would they downplay the prequels so much only to integrate them into the sequels to such a massive extent? You'd think prequel imagery would factor more into their marketing push if that were the case. Now, if in the next few months to a year we start seeing them bring the prequel shit back out, then this becomes more of a possibility.
Anyone who doesn't think Plagueis = Snoke is not paying attention and is ignoring evidence.
Rey being Luke's daughter feels too obvious. I mean JewJew Kike isn't very clever but he knows this is the conclusion everyone would come to. I'm leaning towards Rey being a product of the force similar to how Anakin was which would kind of explain her ability to overpower Kylo in the force because she is like 99% force. But thats just me talking out my ass.
>>65045876 >rey is a force baby No. If it's not secret training or erased memories it's other retarded theories like this. You don't need a big explanation for her beating Kylo that has to do with her past.
>>65046025 Just me guessing, but I'm about 90% sure that Rey is not Luke's daughter. One of the big crew guys said that Rey's heritage would be very surprising and in Episode 9.
But yeah, you actually do need an explaination for Mary "Rey" Sue. I don't doubt her fighting skills because she had that staff thing. But you are telling me that some cunt who literally found out she was force sensitive the day before is going to be a near master of both Mind Trick and out Force pulling someone who has trained for years? Luke took years of training by himself and probably weeks with Master Yoda just to be able to lift rocks. No. Its bullshit.
Honestly I don't know about the plagueis thing. Disney knows how much people hate the prequels and it would really obviously tie them to it.
I am absolutely in two minds about Rey being Luke's daughter, too. I really like the Rey Kenobi theory and it feels like a neat subversion to what we were all expecting - a new trilogy about a new skywalker. It would be a fun way to break the mold.
The lightsaber calling to her doesn't necessarily mean she's a skywalker either. It could quite easily be written off as the force calling to her through a near legendary weapon, and you know it. "That lightsaber is strong with the force, and the force is strong in you" or some tardation.
Let's also remember that the main writer so far has been Kasdan, who was almost certainly the guy who came up with the "I am your father" bit (no, fuck you george, you did NOT have it planned out from day 1) He's a smart guy and a genuinely good writer and I feel like doing the exact same twist with the next generation in the same family in the same film in the trilogy would be really not what he wanted. Making her a Kenobi makes it much less problematic for him.
>>65046209 >She was probably being trained by Luke and escaped Kylo Ren's youngling massacre. I mean she was probably there, but she'd be 5 to 8 years old. At that point whatever training she could have had is irrelevant.
>>65046281 Three main points I want to make to you. 1. Cutting up the force into categories as specific as "mind trick" is fucking stupid. There are categories but they much more general, like "telekinesis" not "push, pull, saber throw, choke, etc." That you think Rey is better at "force pulling" than Kylo makes you seem retarded. Go back to /v/. 2. You don't seem to understand what the OT portrayed jedi training as. You don't have to practice with larger and larger rocks until you can lift that x-wing. You also don't know that mind tricks are this super impossible thing only masters can do. Fuck, Luke did it without even finishing his jedi training. 3. Your power level way of thinking isn't how the force works in the OT. Luke doesn't beat Vader because he became a better force user or duelist than him.
The explanation is she's strong in the force. You use the very specific phrase "near master" to describe her mind trick ability. Near master? She mind tricked a stormtrooper, they aren't exactly the strongest minds out there.
Apparently in Disney Infinity there's a boss battle between Rey and Kylo and Kylo outright calls her "cousin" so unless Disney is deliberately fucking with canon to throw people off in their game it's basically confirmed she is Lukes daughter.
>>65046730 >Cutting up the force into categories as specific as "mind trick" is fucking stupid. Literally autism. These are feats that Jedi perform simply put in name. You probably throw a Redditfit when someone calls a movie a flick too right? >You also don't know that mind tricks are this super impossible thing only masters can do. Name all the times a mind trick was used. QuiGon TPM, ObiWan ANH, Luke ROTJ All masters. Rey did it after one day. Hurr durr the force is easy. >Luke doesn't beat Vader because he became a better force user or duelist than him. I never said that but please explain your obviously superior way of thinking then. It was by chance? It was because he tapped into his emotions?
>The explanation is she's strong in the force. Obviously but there is a reason the Jedi Order existed. Being able to use the force isn't something you pick up on a whim from being force sensitive. It has to be trained and taught. AND THIS IS THE PREQUEL LINE OF THOUGHT WITH MIDICHLORIANS AND SHIT.
Lets go back to the OT line of thought where it was "anyone can be a Jedi" way that people got butthurt over after midichlorians were introduced in TPM. In the OT it was basically "anyone can be a Jedi if you focus yourself hard enough and learn the ways from a master".
>>65046871 What other conspiracy theories you got for us? Just watch another play through of the same boss fight. Kylo says curses when he gets hit. But no, you're going straight to 'shill' spewing and name calling. You're a real piece of work.
>>65043960 >Before TFA. >Guys Snoke is Plagueis, trust me, he will be a Munn >Movie comes out, Snoke is not a Munn >No wait guys, they just change his species, and name, almost gender too, but it's totally Plagueis
I can't wait for "they are saving the reveal for Episode 9" after 8 comes out, kek.
>>65046551 In old EU (dunno if it still stands), the Falcon took over a month to get from the asteroids to Cloud City with a shitty, less powerful backup hyperdrive-like device. It wasn't a fast trip for them.
Plenty of time for Luke to train for weeks and then get to Bespin quick with a working hyperdrive.
>>65047368 >Literally autism. I'm sorry it's so autistic to let the movies speak for themselves instead of applying the logic they did in the star wars video games.
>Name all the times a mind trick was used. All masters. I've only seen Jango and Boba use jetpacks. I guess only Fetts are allowed to use them. You lack basic logic and it's fucked up.
>I never said that Full on autism. I know you didn't, it's called an example. Luke beat Vader for two reasons. The first was Vader was conflicted (just like Kylo). The second is that Luke tapped into the dark side (similar to Rey tapping into the light). I bring this up because you want to have it that no one can win a duel without being the better force user with more training.
>there is a reason the Jedi Order existed. Being able to use the force isn't something you pick up on a whim from being force sensitive. It has to be trained and taught. AND THIS IS THE PREQUEL LINE OF THOUGHT WITH MIDICHLORIANS AND SHIT. It's prequel thinking to make the force require x years of training in specific areas to use the force. In the OT Luke gets a bunch of lessons on belief, no one tells him the proper finger position or stance for anything. Shit, Luke never even trains in lightsaber fighting.
What the fuck are you yelling about Mary Sues for? I never said Rey wasn't one.
>>65044898 Approximately that. Him being a Muun is Lucas's idea. Lucas material remains canon.
Anyways, the Plagueis shit is not valid, Plagueis is dead, Sheev killed him. Sheev explains this. Sheev kept his ashes in a vase in his office. All of this is in either screenplays or novelizations, both of which are Lucas level canon. Unless you want to do a MASSIVE asspull HES MASDURED TEH MIDICHLORINES AND REVIED HIMSELF bullshit explanation, he will not come back.
>>65047904 While I agree with your sentiment that Plagueis is never happening, Lucas never gave much about the character. In fact, there are quotes where he states that the Opera scene is meant to be ambiguous and Sheev could just be bullshitting.
Darth Bane is an actual character created by Lucas, fleshed out by EU. Plagueis was just an idea, not even a real character, until EU turned him into one and then fleshed him out.
The whole him existing and getting killed/vase stuff is all EU. Film-wise Plagueis is just a story told to Anakin by Sheev to trick him into thinking he can save his wife.
Just because the movies sucked doesn't mean that they didn't have any merits and didn't introduce any great concepts, potential plot points, and greatly expand the lore. To not take advantage of that would be totally idiotic on Disney's part. Especially since the prequel era produced some of the best Star Wars content in the franchise, (Clone Wars cartoons, KOTOR, Republic Commando, Sith Empire, etc.)
>>65046300 It would be too predictable for her to be Luke's daughter. Whoever she is, and I'm hoping for a Kenobi, the people who stashed her on Jakku didn't want her to survive. No caring parent would leave their small child in the care of Unkar Plutt. My theory is she was kidnapped.
Natural affinity was always a part of it though. Luke even says in Jedi that the Force is strong in his family. Vader says in ANH "the force is strong with this one" when chasing Luke through the trench. It always had something to do with natural talent.
>>65048452 Considering how poorly fathers are depicted in the media I wouldn't be surprised if they that because they thought it make her safe or some other bullshit. Luke in TFA has already abandoned his friends and the galaxy so why not Rey?
>But muh Kenobi wouldn't have any kids Obi Wan was never a model Jedi. He was always seen as a loose canon. He only got promoted because he was good at killing Sith. Also he would think the rule is bullshit because he had no problem raising Luke. And if it wasn't for him finding Anakin, and Anakin banging Padme.. they would never have found out Sheev's plans... and Sheev would have found Anakin himself anyway.
>>65049533 Why didn't you explain your video game post? Why are you putting words into my mouth? Why do you pretend the prequels and the OT show the same concept of the force? Why do you shitpost with your shill meme?
>>65049666 >Whether you like it or not the prequels are canon Correct.
>and you can't just ignore the rules the establish. Oh, but you can. Do you think JJ or Kasdan or whoever is doing VIII gives one fuck about the prequels? See when the OT and the PT show different ideas about the force, you can only pick one to go forward with. Guess which one the new trilogy is going with.
>>65049626 Why don't you explain straight what the THESIS of this argument is about then. What exactly are you arguing for?
>Why do you pretend the prequels and the OT show the same concept of the force? They don't though and now you are putting words in my mouth. Prequels have midi-chlorians. OT have "anyone can do it with some training".
Except they don't show different conceptions of the Force. They clearly specify that using the Force is based partly on genetics and natural ability. That's why Luke says that the force is strong in his family. That's why they say Leia is another hope. If anybody could be a Jedi then why would Yoda and Obi bother with Luke in particular? They care about him and Leia because they know that Luke is naturally talented with the force because Anakin was.
>>65050671 >If anybody could be a Jedi then why would Yoda and Obi bother with Luke in particular? They care about him and Leia because they know that Luke is naturally talented with the force because Anakin was. Tell me this is a joke.
>>65050855 I could just tell you but I want to see if you can get there on your own. What makes Luke and Leia special? (Hint: you've already mentioned it) How does Luke 'win' in the end? How does he get what he wants? (Hint: I'm not talking about how he wins a lightsaber duel) What does Luke (and therefore Leia too) cause Vader to feel? (Hint: Luke says it more than once)
>>65048632 Abandoning adults is one thing, abandoning a very young, helpless child is quite another and would make Luke look evil. They took care in the movie to show us Plutt was slowly starving Rey. Bad guys are behind why she ended up on alone Jakku.
Look m8, even if they used them because their relation to Vader makes him more vulnerable, it's still pretty obvious that in the OT the Force is related to natural ability. They talk about the force being strong with certain people. That means that it's stronger with some than it is with others. Luke tells Leia "you have that power too", which obviously implies that there are people who don't have that power, and that it is transmitted genetically. If you honestly think that in the OT anybody could use the Force than you just didn't watch the movie.
>>65046551 >But it was literally days What makes you think that would have been a short trip for them? Travel between distant systems is supposed to take ages even using hyperdrives With a broken hyperdrive they would have technically been travelling for hundreds of years according to real phyics, but even with sci-fi space magic you're just pulling "days" out of your ass.
But it doesn't matter if it was a day or a month, because training with two of the greatest masters of recent history for five minutes should put you in a better place than someone who found out it existed yesterday
>>65051580 >From “Revenge of the Jedi” Story Conference Transcript, July 13 to July 17, 1981 with series creator George Lucas, writer Lawrence Kasdan, director Richard Marquand and producer Howard Kazanjian. >Kasdan: The Force was available to anyone who could hook into it? >Lucas: Yes, everybody can do it. >Kasdan: Not just the Jedi? >Lucas: It’s just the Jedi who take the time to do it. >Marquand: They use it as a technique. >Lucas: Like yoga. If you want to take the time to do it, you can do it; but the ones that really want to do it are the ones who are into that kind of thing. Also like karate. Also another misconception is that Yoda teaches Jedi, but he is like a guru; he doesn’t go out and fight anybody.
Can you please stop bringing up all those retcons with all that prequel talk?
Even if that was Lucas's original intention, he did a shit job of showing in the movies, and nothing about the way the force works in the prequels actually contradicts the way it works in the OT. Even saying "The Force is strong with this one" like Vader does in ANH obviously implies that some people are naturally gifted with it.
Not to mention that just ignoring canon material is what's called bad writing, even if the content that produced it was shitty.
>>65051580 >even if you're right, you're wrong! Reminder that the only thing I brought up was why Obi-Wan and Yoda would choose Luke or Leia over a random with potential. This whole genetics thing isn't what I was talking about at all. But let's just go a head anyway I guess.
>because the force can run in families that means it only runs in families You're writing a lot of fan fiction there anon. You know not everyone's talent runs in the family while some undoubtedly do. It's like saying every child of a director can direct, that certainly isn't true. Yet there are some examples yes. I don't think you understand how logic and evidence works.
The point being that nothing in the OT contradicts the way the Force is supposed to work in the prequels. What little we do see about how the force works actually coincides with what the prequels show. Which means that there aren't two different ways that it's supposed to work, and anybody trying to justify Disney's blatant violation of the canon.
>>65052425 Well I don't necessarily disagree, but I simply would not pay attention to something just because it's technically "canon." Darth Maul being alive is technically canon too, but you bet your ass Disney will never put him in a movie since it would confuse the 99% of movie goers that think he is dead.
>>65052529 Speaking of which, Snoke is not Plagueis, and Plagueis will never appear on film. Mostly because there is no surprise is such a "twist" (it's not even a twist, it's just a crappy reference really).
Yeah but it's easy to ignore Darth Maul. Ignoring how a central plot element like the Force has worked for the past six movies is less easy. It would be like bringing Obi-Wan back with no explanation, it's just shitty storytelling.
>>65045876 >Anyone who doesn't think Plagueis = Snoke is not paying attention and is ignoring evidence
There's a reason that TFA has countless callbacks to the original trilogy and zero callbacks to the prequels. And it's not just that the prequels are dogshit that most of the SW fanbase (and even some normies) hate. It's that it's not iconic or memorable. There's literally no reason for Snoke to be Plagueis because Plagueis was NOBODY. Except to faggots who read way too much supplementary material, AKA shit that wasn't in the movie.
>>65052693 Again, I don't disagree with the sentiment, but Disney is mostly building off the OT when it comes to the movies. I simply don't think the events of the PT, and their lore, will have any real relevance in future movies.
>>65052966 I agree that it would be, mostly, good, but there is certainly no profit in pandering to already established Star Wars fans. If you are/were an EU fan, Disney already has your money anyway. Another reason why Plagueis is irrelevant and has no use for Disney.
>>65052701 But then again who the fuck is Snoke and why should I care? At least Plagueis is established in ROTS and can provide connective tissue for the entire saga. It would be dumb for him not to be Plagueis
>>65053107 That's the thing, Plagueis isn't an established character to most people, only to EUfags.
There is no practical difference between Snoke being a new character, and a character mentioned once in a throwaway line in one movie to the general audience. In fact, Plagueis creates more complications and comes with baggage that a new character does not.
Also, Snoke is Palpatine 2.0 rehash by design, no matter his identity.
>>65052387 So if we're just gonna end up arguing about the nature of the force instead, let's pin down what we're talking about. If we, or really I, put the prequel bashing away, you want to talk about if The Force Awakens falls in line with canon force use as set up by the previous 6 movies. Plus or minus the room for new stuff of course, I don't think anyone is gonna complain Kylo Ren's marionette-like use of telekinesis is lore breaking.
I think you'd agree we need a list of force uses in TFA. I'm just gonna stick to Rey, unless you wanna bring something up from Kylo. He mostly just moves things and reads minds, both have precedent in the PT and OT.
Rey's force use: >enhanced piloting ability >force vision? >resist mind probe >reading kylo's mind or at least his feelings >mind tricked storm trooper >telekinesis on the lightsaber in the snow >enhanced melee weapon skill? >super strength Did I miss anything? So I guess I'd ask which you found lore breaking in and of themselves and which were because she was untrained.
>>65052701 Exactly what kind of callbacks are you talking about? They wanted to emulate the OT because lore-wise and chronologically it is much closer to the new trilogy and they were also better movies in general. But the prequels and everything content-wise in them are still canon including Plagueis. They mention Jedi and the Force in TFA. They did that in the prequels so does that count as a "callback" in your book?
>no reason for Snoke to be Plagueis It would be more familiar to those who actually pay attention to the universe rather than having some random super-powerful guy come out of fucking nowhere. For normies it wouldn't make any difference either way too because with a brand new character or Plagueis, to them he is a new character.
None of us should pretend to know what the new movie's plots will be about either because we don't. But it is not impossible that we could get a reveal talking about Plagueis creating Anakin with midichlorians (and possibly Ren or Rey but the former is reaching hard) and in that sense Plagueis and Luke are related because technically it would mean Plagueis/Snoke is Anakin's father, Luke's grandfather and Kylo's great-grandfather. Creating family tension there that is very familiar with the OT. "No Luke. I AM your grandfather."-type shit. See its like pottery it spins. Now you can cry about how stupid this would be but thats like... your opinion man. It doesn't have any relevance one whether or not Snoke is or isn't Plagueis just because you think this exact scenario is stupid.
Now that being said, there is other evidence to support Plagueis being Snoke such as: >the music from ROTS talking about Plagueis being EXACTLY the same as Snokes theme in TFA >the lack of mention of Plagueis after ROTS that is canon >unexplained wounds on Snoke ... post limit
>>65052800 If that were true, Disney would've just declared them non-canon then you can join the rest of Reddit in your circlejerk of hate.
If that's the case then there isn't really any reason to not make him Snoke either. Making him Plageus would be a way to tie all the movies together with a character that normies at worst won't really care about and that die hard fans will go apeshit for. There is nothing to lose and everything to gain from putting Plageus in the new movies. I realize it probably won't happen, I just really want it to because I dread the next two movies being shitty OT rehashes.
>>65053450 2/2 Now that being said, there is other evidence to support Plagueis being Snoke such as: >the music from ROTS talking about Plagueis being EXACTLY the same as Snokes theme in TFA >the lack of mention of Plagueis after ROTS that is canon >unexplained wounds on Snoke's head that correlate with an assassination attempt by Sheev explained in ROTS >Sheev boasting about killing a man that literally figured out how to prevent death but people taking Sheev's words at face value >the idea that powerful Dark Siders are just ever present in the galaxy and the idea of one that we've never heard of before sudden controls a large part of the galaxy
You see, as someone mentions here: >>65053256 >>65053466 just as I have in the first post, Plagueis is a lesser-known but established bad guy that makes sense in his return.
AND PLAGUEIS IS NOT EU, HE IS CANON. CRY ABOUT IT.
Pretty much. He piloting skills could be explained by enhanced reflexes and intuition. The two things that don't make sense are beating Kylo and doing the mind trick. As far as Kylo goes I could accept it given that he was injured etc. but the way it was handled he's clearly winning until Rey just thinks about the Force a little bit and then beats him.
>>65053466 >If that's the case then there isn't really any reason to not make him Snoke either.
Plenty of reasons not to. He comes with a bunch of discarded lore for one thing. But the main reason is that is shits all over the Saga. The whole point of the movies, according to Lucas, is for Anakin to balance the force by destroying that Sith. If Plagueis exists, he basically retcons all movies canonically. Not to mention it would make Palpatine look like an idiot.
>>65053450 >If that were true, Disney would've just
declared them non-canon then you can join the rest of Reddit in your circlejerk of hate.
It's bad for business to alienate fans. Otherwise you and your prequel autists friends would whine all over reddit about how Disney raped your childhood.
>>65053621 >AND PLAGUEIS IS NOT EU, HE IS CANON. Everything but his name comes from EU. He is not established whatsoever to the average fan, only wookiepdia autists care about him.
>>65053813 Stay mad, Snoke isn't Plagueis either way. He's dead in your precious canon, and it's not changing.
>>65053837 He doesn't need to be. Palpatine wasn't exactly established in RotJ either. Snoke is a supporting villain, the trilogy is about Rey and Kylo. He'll be important lore-wise and plot-wise, but the movies aren't about him.
And by now the average Star Wars fan know who Snoke is and still has no idea who the fuck Plagueis was.
The SW question on my mind lately is when in episode 3, sheev fucks up 3 jedi masters in seconds, Mace dindu is the only one left, said to be one of if not the strongest saber duelist among the jedi, and he gains the upper hand on sheev only when Anakin is there to watch. Did sheev throw the fight in order to show anakin the unjust ways of the jedi? Was it coincidence that anakin was there to wreck maces shit right on time?
>>65053972 >Stay mad, Snoke isn't Plagueis either way Says who lol
Saying >I'm right you're wrong doesn't count as evidence familia.
You haven't provided a single piece of evidence to support that Snoke isn't Plagueis. In fact, you provide more proof FOR the theory. Because Plagueis wasn't well established in ROTS. Vader was a supporting villain. Plagueis being the great-grandfather of Kylo (and possibly Rey) ties them together. But that doesn't mean the movie is centered around him and no one is suggesting it is.
The average Star Wars fan doesn't know the difference between Palpatine, Sheev, Sidious or the Emperor either. But they are all the same person.
Sorryfam but Plagueis is probably Snoke. Unless said otherwise in Episode 8/9.
>>65054214 Its possible almost being killed by his apprentice made Plagueis turn away from the Sith. It was already established in the EU Plagueis material that he was somewhat against the Sith teachings, specifically the Rule of Two.
"Destroying the Sith" doesn't really mean shit. Because it would imply that there is no more evil Jedi in the galaxy yet here are Snoke and Kylo. Its kind of just arguing semantics.
>>65054335 So you admit to the possiblity then? Good.
And no, I'll be understanding because right now we have no answers. Only clues to the truth. When we finally have the truth, I'll accept it instead of being a denying little bitch like you.
>>65053689 Okay so mind trick and meditating power boost in battle.
So for the mind trick we know it's a jedi knight level technique. Obi-Wan uses it on death sticks guy, and while he is Anakin's "master" he only gets the actual jedi master rank in III.
Luke used in it RotJ, clearly to show how much he's learned but he was no master. I'd even be hesitant to say he's a jedi knight. I'm gonna do a little conversion here between yoda's old and new force training. In the old days the jedi council used whatever "the trials" are to grant the rank of jedi knight. There's a final test. Yoda tells Luke that he's not a jedi (since padawans aren't full jedi I'm gonna say jedi and jedi knight mean the same thing here) until he faces Vader. He does tell Luke he's learned enough even though he didn't finish the training. Is Luke really as well trained in the beginning of RotJ as Obi-Wan was at the end Phantom Menace?
So from what we see it seems like a jedi knight could do it proficiently, but there is a discord between Clones and Jedi. Obi-Wan is a padawan until he's in his early 20s and starts from a young age, like single digits. That's probably at least a decade of training and he's even older when we finally see him do the mind trick in Clones. Luke got a couple weeks tops with yoda and 6 months to a year of reflection. I don't know, either Luke is some kind of savant in the force or just because we see Obi-Wan do it at a certain level of training doesn't mean he couldn't do it earlier with less training or force mastery.
The only thing I know about Plagueis is what I know from the prequels. And that's still plenty. He's an incredibly powerful Sith lord that had even the emperor speak of him with awe and probably fear. He wasn't defeated by superior force but trickery. And his great talent was fortitude.
I'm not joking when I say I've been avoiding all things star wars until the past week and this is the first I've heard of the theory and it makes a lot of sense. Plagueis is probably a survivor given his legendary talents for healing/health extension so if anyone could survive the emperor's assassination it would be him.
It also rhymes nicely with the past movies that he's like the emperor but not. The Emperor's talent was his Machiavellian power. He was a leader and schemer and thus his evil empire was truly an Empire. The first order is a remnant of what the empire once was. Not as grand but meaner and scrappier. Tougher. Like Plagueis, their new Sith Lord. The emperor was a creator, even if a dark one. A Plagueis/Snoke would be a preserver (if we're going max hindu here I guess Vader can be shiva/the destroyer)
A different kind of evil that should still not be underestimated.
>Plagueis and Sheev work together to create life in the Force >it fails >The Force creates the chosen one to kill the Sith order for their douchiness >Plagueis and Sheev killed >but Plagueis had trick up his sheev - discovered Force ghost technique and came back >finished his experiment by creating Rey >Luke kicks his ass and kidnaps Rey >wipes her memory
>>65054665 >The only thing I know about Plagueis is what I know from the prequels.
I don't think you are being quite honest here. Plagueis in RotS is just a story Sheev told Anakin to to trick him. Things like who he was, what did, and how he died, are all elaborated in the EU. The film itself does not even tell if Sheev is his apprentice nor if Plagueis is anything more than a legend. All the other things you mentioned is extraneous to the plot of the film info that comes from the EU, not the prequels.
Which is the way Lucas intended it, Plaguies is supposed to be an ambiguous and open ended idea. EU is the one that took that idea and turned him into another boring Sith Lord.
>>65054823 >How hard is the mind trick to pull off? Considering its fictional, impossible to say. But anytime we've seen it used its been by something very experienced with the Force. Implying that it is not easy. Why haven't we seen a 5 year old youngling use it? Because thats the same thing here. Rey is the equivalent of a 20-something yo youngling.
>>65055020 EU that was considered canon before the Disney wipe.
>>65055098 >But anytime we've seen it used its been by something very experienced with the Force. Implying that it is not easy. Why haven't we seen a 5 year old youngling use it? Because thats the same thing here. Rey is the equivalent of a 20-something yo youngling. Did you read anything I wrote about Obi-Wan and Luke using it?
>>65055222 You mean how they had at least 1 year experience each practicing the Force instead of the 1 DAY that Rey had?
Yeah I read it. Your point?
>>65055251 >called it a parallel universe [Citation needed]. Lucas however did insist on Plagueis being a Muun. Sorry to burst your head canon, but Plagueis is a real person and was considered canon by Lucas before the Disney EU wipe.
He is still considered an actual person in the new canon, but we do not know anything about him.
>>65055020 >Plagueis in RotS is just a story Right, and I and others heard that story.
>Sheev told Anakin to to trick him. That's your speculation. It could very well be true. Certainly Anakin thought it was.
>Things like who he was, what did, and how he died, are all elaborated in the EU They might be elaborated more definitively in the EU but it's an obvious conclusion to jump to that Palpatine was talking about his own old master. I'm pretty sure the prequel movies imply this because I assume so and again I don't know what the EU says about the guy.
Then there's the subtle but definite one off line about Anakin not having a father. Again, fan speculation says a guy that might have immortality powers might be connected to such weirdness. You don't need the EU for this. People were talking about it when the movies first came out. I remember. Whether or not Disney wants to go with such strange Jesus allusion I don't know, but they were clearly meant to be a serious plot point in Lucas's canon vision in the prequel movies.
You seem kind of angry at the EU for some reason and it's clouding your judgement. You don't need comics and auxiliary books to have fan speculation from, yes ambiguous but also definite, elements in the older movies.
>>65055364 My point is that you don't know what the minimum requirement for a mind trick is so fuck off niggerlips. Combine that with the obvious idea that the movie is trying to tell you Rey is very naturally gifted and nothing is lore breaking.
>>65055364 >[Citation needed] >"There are two worlds here," explained Lucas. "There's my world, which is the movies, and there's this other world that has been created, which I say is the parallel universe—the licensing world of the books, games and comic books. >"The only relevant official continuities are the current versions of the films alone, and the combined current version of the films along with whatever else we've got in the Holocron. >"Anything not in the current version of the films is irrelevant to Film only continuity."
Sorry to burst your bubble, but EU was never canon to the films.
>Lucas however did insist on Plagueis being a Muun.
He insisted on a lot of things. The EU has to conform to the movies, the movies do not have to conform to the films. Which is why swaths of EU got wiped away at George's whim all the time.
>He is still considered an actual person in the new canon, but we do not know anything about him. Sure, he is real in Disney canon, but he's also dead in Disney canon.
>>65055520 >No way Darth Maul is dead he was killed in Episode 1 >Wait what? He was in The Clone Wars? Whatever he died there too at the end with Sheev. >Wait what? He is going to be in Rebels? What the fuck...
Things change get over it. Gonna repeat my thesis from earlier: "Good, thats all I'm arguing for is that the possibility of Snoke being Plagueis exists. Fags in here are confident that he isn't when they obviously have no idea either way.
>>65055426 >That's your speculation. It could very well be true. Certainly Anakin thought it was.
Like I said, that's the point.
>"Now there's a hint in the movie that there was a Sith lord who had the power to create life. But it's left unsaid: Is Anakin a product of a super-Sith who influenced the midichlorians to create him, or is he simply created by the midichlorians to bring forth a prophecy, or was he created by the Force through the midichlorians? It's left up to the audience to decide. How he was born ulitmately has no relationship to how he dies, because in the end, the prophecy is true: Balance comes back to the Force." - George Lucas
Like the director of the film says, Plagueis' existence is completely irrelevant to the plot, which is why no canonical film ever bothered to answer the question if it's a lie or not.
>They might be elaborated more definitively in the EU but it's an obvious conclusion to jump to that Palpatine was talking about his own old master. Cool speculation bro.
> Again, fan speculation says a guy that might have immortality powers might be connected to such weirdness. Cool speculation bro, but George also made it clear Anakin was a viring birth through the Force and not through Plagueis.
>You seem kind of angry at the EU for some reason and it's clouding your judgement. I have an issue with EUfags. They keep pushing their headcanon, that goes against all established lore, at every turn.
>>65055614 >he thinks the cartoons have any impact on the films
Let's not move back the goalposts. Disney changed things, and declared everything to be canon, but we are talking about what George did and intended. Also, Disney hasn't changed anything, the movies are still going to be the only thing that matter when it comes to movie continuity.
I'm not moving any goalposts, I'm simply saying that Maul was considered dead in early Lucas canon. Then TCW came out and him being alive is now canon. There is literally nothing stopping Disney from "reviving" Plagueis. And it absolutely would not be as much of a handwave as Maul's was considering Sheev mentions Plagueis' power to stay alive.
>>65055926 Being mentioned in ROTS and Tarkin make him canon buddy.
>>65054229 >The average Star Wars fan doesn't know the difference between Palpatine, Sheev, Sidious or the Emperor either. But they are all the same person.
Potentially true, so let's accept this for argument's sake. The difference, though, is that a single movie trilogy didn't rename that same character multiple times or put additional titles on him.
In the OT, he's The Emperor. That's all you ever hear. It's an Empire and he's identified as our Emperor. Simple and straight forward.
The name Palpatine originally came from EU and, of course, was used in the PT because he wasn't an Emperor yet. Then Sheev came out in other EU after that.
But Snoke has already been named Supreme Leader Snoke for his movies. His simple identifying title is already set up. For all I know, Snoke could be Plagueis but I don't think he will be because I don't think they'll spend a movie getting the audience to know his name and then, later, stop to basically correct it with, "but Snoke isn't actually my name. My name is Plagueis! None of you recognise that name but, yeah, he existed. And I'm him. And Snoke. So, I guess, call me whichever of those you wish."
The reveal of Vader actually being Luke's dad (later named as Anakin in ROTJ) worked because the conflict between Luke's absent father and Darth Vader being connected to that absence was set up from the beginning. It's a major sub-plot of ANH and becomes the plot of ESB and ROTJ. It's all about him.
This movie, so far, hasn't been about Snoke. He's just a shadowy figure named Snoke. While the next movies might reveal some back story, I don't foresee it being detailed enough to suddenly handle a wonky "who the fuck is Plagueis" explanation. The Emperor only got backstory because he starred in a whole prequel trilogy about that stuff. Snoke doesn't have that. They don't have time to explain him as Snoke and as Plagueis AND do all the Rey, Finn, Kylo, Luke stuff.
>>65056133 >He isn't canon, he's a legend, a myth.
No it isn't. There is a canon article on Star wars wiki about canon Darth Palagueis.
>Darth Plagueis was a male Dark Lord of the Sith and the master of Darth Sidious. He acquired considerable knowledge in the field of midi-chlorian manipulation, but was ultimately betrayed and murdered by his own apprentice, in accordance with the "Rule of Two." Sidious later recounted the tale of his master's demise to lure Anakin Skywalker to the dark side.
>>65056231 >The reason why Snoke looks so fucked up, is that he's a Frankenstein monster of the Dark Side binding the souls of Sheev, Vader and Plagueis together
Nah, Snoke is Plagueis. After Sheev "killed" him, he literally came back from the fucking dead using the force. Midi-chlorians literally helped rebuild his body. That's why he looks like a fucking zombie. That's why he has the scar (lightsaber scar).
>>65056199 In the PT he is known by 3 of the 4 of those names: First as Senator/Chancellor Palaptine. Then as the "Emperor" at the end of ROTS and then also Darth Sidious. Having multiple aliases is not something that is new to Star Wars.
I don't know if Snoke is Plagueis, so I'll set that aside, but this does bring up something I've been thinking about. Lots of people talk about Snoke's appearances as if he's using a hologram message, like the Emperor used with Vader, to communicate from wherever he is and make himself look big.
I've been wondering if it's not a hologram and what if Snoke is a Force ghost. Like an evil old Ob-Wan for Kylo.
Plagueisfags think that: >JJ is lying >Kasdan is lying >Hidalgo is lying >There is a 2 year long misdirection campaign going on by Disney to hide Plagues
Yep, tottally guys. Disney is putting all this effort to hide a character mentioned once in the prequels for their epic twist. And let's ignore the fact it rectons all prior movies and shows that Luke and Vader failed.
>Kylo, I am your Grandfather's master master!
OMG! Can you imagine the epic reaction by the audience when this awesome twist is revealed? That tottaly is a worth twist that won't go over the head of everyone by neckbeards!
Look, I know Star Wars fans are autistsc, but please stop embarrassing yourselves.
>>65054637 In the EU Sheev had a biological son who was a mutant, he sent him away to work as a slave, he knocked up a Jedi in hiding and they had a son, who disappears from the EU right after his story is over.
>>65055020 That is not how Lucas intended it. Lucas gave direction to the guy who wrote the Plagueis novel and more details about Plagueis are included in both the ROTS screenplay and novelization that specify that he was Sheev's master and a real figure.
That he was a Muun was suggested by George to the guy writing the novelization, so that's in a canonical grey area since technically EVERYTHING George says about SW up to him selling it to Disney is highest level canon.
Remember the time he went on the Daily Show and told John Stewart that Obi-Wan came from the planet Stewjon? That is canon. That off handed throwaway answer is actually still in the star wars canon.
Oh yea, the most famous Star Trek villain from the most critically acclaimed Star Trek film, that saved the franchise from dying and is known to every Star Trek fan, was hidden in the Star Trek 2 semi-remake.
That's totally comparable to a throwaway line from Revenge of the Sith that no one gets but neckbeards that edit wookipedia.
>>65056455 >That is not how Lucas intended it >>"Now there's a hint in the movie that there was a Sith lord who had the power to create life. But it's left unsaid: Is Anakin a product of a super-Sith who influenced the midichlorians to create him, or is he simply created by the midichlorians to bring forth a prophecy, or was he created by the Force through the midichlorians? It's left up to the audience to decide. How he was born ulitmately has no relationship to how he dies, because in the end, the prophecy is true: Balance comes back to the Force." - George Lucas >But it's left unsaid >It's left up to the audience to decide.
>>65056378 True. But those aren't entirely new identities for a minor character. The Phantom Menace sets up both Sidious and Palpatine right from the start, with the audience seeing they're the same person if they have eyes. Palpatine then just gains various ranks over time, like Luke or Han becoming Commander/General when they weren't before.
But, imagine if Darth Maul had been in Attack of the Clones. We don't have Darth Maul introduced in TPM as Darth Maul, the shadowy Dark Side enforcer for the movie, finish the movie and then, in AotC reveal, "actually, I'm more than just Maul. I'm also Darth (whatever)! And here is the explanation/backstory..."
Palpatine/Sidious didn't do the same thing part-way through either. He is how he was set up in each trilogy. Snoke just exists as a big baddie; a physical sign of who/what has to be toppled in order to win this new trilogy (or however many movies they take for this plotline). It would make more sense if some sort of connection between Snoke and Luke had been set up. Some sort of "we have history, he and I" kind of seed, like the early connection between Luke's lost father and Vader in ANH.
>>65056904 Well the only reason we know Palpatine is Sidious is because of the order the movies were released. If the movies came out 1-6 instead of 4-3, they would've hidden Sidious/Sheev's identity thus making it a surprise. So there is no reason they wouldn't be able to do it here.
>>65056905 Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. I mean I know you are trolling, but have some common sense at least.
>>65056999 Well actually Dark Siders can be force ghosts... but in a different form. For example here is Darth Bane's "force ghost" from the Clone Wars:
So they can be Force ghosts, but what we saw in TFA was just a hologram.
>>65057149 Plagueis could've turned away from the Sith. Thats not an insane claim to make considering his apprentice tried to kill him.
But what the prophecy said was that the Chosen One would destroy the Sith. It was most likely accomplished in ROTJ by Vader but it could easily mean Luke is the Chosen One instead and is supposed to destroy Plagueis.
But if not, so? The prophecy really didn't mean shit if Snoke and Kylo are able to take the galaxy over just 30 years later and bring the Dark Side back.
>>65057189 This. Same shit different name. They are all dark siders. Its like saying I want to kill all the Shia Muslims! Then you do, but the Sunnis are still around so what did you accomplish.
>>65057615 >>65057666 So either Lucas' quotes are canon or they aren't. If they are, Snoke can't be Plagueis because he isn't a Muun (as far as we know) and Revan, the best SW character to ever exist is still canon.
If not, Plagueis can still be a human and still be Snoke and Revan is not canon.
The biggest problem I have with Snoke not being Plageus (aside from him just being a shitty Emperor rehash) is that it means we are just supposed to assume that badass Sith tier monster men just pop out of holes in the ground or something? I mean I get the feeling from Snoke that he's ancient, where could he have possibly come from in the last 30 years? If he isn't Plageus I can't think of how they could make any not stupid backstory for him.
>>65058836 >"No Sith remains. And the lone Jedi that exists--the son of Anakin Skywalker--possesses an untouchable soul. At least for now. We must instead move towards the dark side. Palpatine felt that the universe beyond the edges of our map was where his power came from. Over the many years he, with our aid, sent men and women beyond known space. They built labs and communication stations on distant moons, asteroids, out there in the wilds. We must follow them. Retreat from the Galaxy. Go out beyond the veil of stars. We must seek the source of the dark side like a man looking for a wellspring of water."
>>65058836 Here's him later in his career, he got rekt by Maladian assassins who caught him by surprise because he was shit at seeing the future (which is also how Sheev killed him, he literally got him drunk then force lightninged him to death) and cut his throat out. Sheev and his bro Sate had to come in and shoot all of those fuckers, Sheev performed Sith reverse CPR to stop his hearts so he didn't bleed out. He had to wear the mask the rest of his life.
I recommend the Plagueis book, one of the few good works in the later EU. You get introduced to young Sheev, who is basically Elliot Rodgers except less whiny and actually skilled at things. The later Maul books are also good, if I remember correctly there's some Maul stuff in the Plagueis book too that was delightfully evil.
Like the time Sheev had Maul climb a mountain naked in a snowstorm, then when he got to the top, Sheev asked him if he was cold, Maul said yes, then Sheev threw him in a lake and told him to swim or die.
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