What exactly do you consider "bad" about this film?

it's fine, but it feels like two movies smashed together

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I was just talking about this. The ewoks are not bad. At all. It's the fact that the emperor is so confident in setting his trap that he leaks the ACTUAL generator location to the rebels. The whole fulcrum of the movie that allows the resolution is a Wookie in an AT-ST outgunning a hopelessly small contingent of Imperials.

There's nothing that I didn't like about this

>>64599176
Han Solo is boring as fuck in this movie.
Luke's sister reveal is lame.

>>64599176

>Richard Marquand was a flaccid weak director that Lucas hired to be his bitch boy and the movie feels uninspired as a result
>The Death Star II was a cost-saving measure by Lucas because he didn't want to spend the money to create the Imperial homeworld where the final battle was supposed to take place
>Han Solo was supposed to die early in the movie since they weren't sure he would come back for Jedi because he wasn't contractually obligated. As a result he has nothing to do for 70% of the film and his and Leia's roles on Endor could have been anyone, the characters were poorly used.
>The 3 way split ending was a mistake and robbed the film of a lot of time that could have been spent focusing on Luke's confrontation with his father and the emperor instead of watching Ewoks fuck around on Endor.

>>64599176
The remarkable number of sight gags and slapstick humor. It's Star Wars if Dick Lester directed.

>>64599176
>>64599431

forgot to mention

>Leia was never supposed to be Luke's sister, that was a late-stage addition to the film because Lucas was so burned out that he wasn't going to make any more star wars movies and cancelled his original idea that Luke's sister was hidden on the other side of the galaxy and would be a key focus of Ep. VII / VIII / IX.

>Jabba's Palace scene is entertaining but the rescue plan is retarded
>Han's character arch is pretty much finished after the rescue (and so is Leia's, the only thing she has left is being told that she's Luke's sister)
>pacing is off with Tattooine scenes feeling detached from the rest
>Endor bits are straight up boring
>Ewoks vs Empire is retarded (both the idea of teddy bears beating the Empire and the way it was presented)

>>64599176

The Ewoks are the only thing I didn't like about RoTJ.

The Intro/Jabba's Palace were awesome, Swoop-Bikes, Sheev, Dat Space Battle, Vader's Redemption.

Anyone who says TFA is better than RoTJ is objectively wrong.

>>64599478
and for the record, I don't consider it bad by any stretch. Just not on the level of ANH and ESB. RotJ Luke is the best Luke

>>64599494
>objectively wrong.
Look I agree RotJ is better but that phrase is retarded.

>>64599494
Not exactly. I think TFA has wholly better acting from its cast than ROTJ.

>pacing is off. Everything between Jabba's palace and Endor is boring, exposition stuff
>Final fight with Vader and Emperor pretty inconsequential to anything else that is happening elsewhere
>VERY wrapped up, anticlimax for ending

Other than that, it's a solid piece of sci-fi/fantasy cinema, if not an outright masterpiece.

>>64599544

Maybe, but in terms of the story its not even close.

TFA really, really wasn't memorable. It felt very run of the mill.

>>64599431

this is all interesting, but just to play devil's advocate: these are all biographical or production details that in no way change what's offered in the text.

while it is sad to think of the movie this could have been, the only real criticism that is manifest in the movie is that han solo doesn't have much to do in the film, which i'm not sure matters or is even true. He was always secondary to Luke's story. As ROTJ is primarily the resolution of Luke's story, I have no problem with that.

appealing to outside info doesn't work as internal criticism of a work. same as none of JJ abrams explanations or what it says in the novels excuse the failings of TFA's character development

It's goofy, even by Star Wars standards. The direction isn't nearly as good as the last two. Up until the thrown room, none of it is really compelling.

Every character other than Luke and Vader had already completed their arc. For example, Kasdan and Lucas had no idea what to do with Han. The rogue antihero is now just another hero with little to do. I'm positive that's why there's another Death Star in this one - the gang needed something to do while Luke reached the conclusion in his story.

>>64599431
So most of your complaint are about what the movie could have been rather than what it was.

You can't criticize a movie because it doesn't fit with what your vision of what the story should have been, only how it tells its own story. And while ROTJ was weaker than the other two movies in many points, it still has some of the most evocative scenes in SW. The scene where Luke unleashes his anger is a true classic that transcends the film its in to take its place among the greatest scenes of all time.

>>64599605
Kasdan and Ford knew exactly what to do with Han, Lucas wouldn't let them.

>>64599176
It's the weakest of the OT.

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>>64599544

>>64599586
Yeah, I agree - story wise.

It erases every bit of character development from Empire in the first 25 minutes. Luke is already a trained Jedi, Han and Leia's "I love you" has no impact, Han is immediately unfrozen, Lando is apparently forgiven and promoted in the rebel army for betraying them, Luke rejects Vader again for no reason. In Empire he chose to die rather than join Vader, there's not much more to head him say on the matter
Han and Leia have no real relevance to the story
Jabba sequence is very entertaining but entirely inconsequential to the plot. You could just say "they rescued Han already" the same way were told Luke is already a Jedi and cut it out entirely
The ewoks are pretty stupid. Not bad, but silly and in a conflicting tone with the Luke/Emperor stuff that cross cuts with it

>>64599176
Literally just watched this it comes down to a few factors why it is not the best movie.
>The split threads of story, really takes you out of the moments. One moment I'm enjoying the best lightsaber duel so far, next moment I'm back at this land battle that is so uninteresting I couldn't care less.
>The humour - at this point, too many elements were put in to make humour, it spoils serious moments and makes moments which could have been serious stupid.
>Luke's scene in Jabba the hut is just too convoluted to really make coherent sense.

Apart from that though I do think, the green vs red lightsaber fight was beautifully shot.

The Jabba section is boring and drawn out. Opening with the mission to save Han without attempting to tie that into the Empire/Republic war makes the whole thing feel less pressing, small and besides the point. It feels like a digression at a point when we're supposed to be going headlong into the big finale. IV, which did have a long opening section on Tatooine, made sure to kickstart the film with the Imperial attack on Leia's ship and then maintained a connection to it via C3PO/R2, the hologram, contacting Ben, etc. Plus it felt more creative, since the VI Jabba escapade feels more like an elaboration of the IV cantina scene than its own world.

I get the idea of it, having this contained adventure to show Luke as a functionally complete jedi and action hero, but it doesn't stand on its own. And Luke's plan, whatever it is, is too much setup for how straightforward it is.

The ewoks aren't bad, it's just weird how prominent they are, how big a part they are of the trilogy's climax. They don't fulfil anyone's expectations or hopes. Their presence feels a bit like the film could have introduced many strange new things, but there wasn't enough time or money so they picked one thing and blew it up, except the charm was always in the variety, the individual pieces were always thin. I know they were supposed to be wookies, and this would maybe have been better.

Finally, the Luke/Leia reveal is unnecessary, Han is turned into a joke, and the writing and plotting is, basically, worse.

>>64599176
The Good:

>Luke is at his best in this movie. When I think of Luke Skywalker I think of ROTJ Luke.
>Everything in the throne room at the end is gripping and interesting
>The special effects in space are noticeably better. Lando flying into the Death Star still looks amazing
>Vader's death wasn't melodramatic and in a movie that dropped the ball so much, it was done perfectly in contrast.

The Bad:
>Theres a 20 - 30 minute period in the middle where nothing of interest is happening. The good guys are telling bed time stories with the Ewoks and the Emperor is just kind off sitting around
>The Jabba sequence is cool at first, but drags on and on
>Leia is Luke's sister.
>Yoda's death scene is abrupt
>The scenes on Endor that don't have ewoks in them are still pretty boring. It's all a bit samey and it's just a lot of scenes of rebels shooting imperials in similar looking environments.
>Ewoks defeating the Emperors 'most elite stormtroopers' doesn't make any sense, but also it falls flat of any feeling of victory. Compared to Luke blowing up the Death Star in ANH, it just doesn't have half the impact.
>The line where Vader says 'it's too late for me son'. It gives away too much too soon. The scene where Vader watches his son being tortured would have been that extra bit more tense if his true feelings had been kept secret for just a little longer.

>>64599656
Death?

The logical conclusion of Han was the end of Empire. It'd be weird to bring him back in Jedi only to kill him off 20 minutes later.

>>64599176
The Jabba sequence has no consequence on the rest of the film so it feels disconnected

Han and Leia finished their arc in Empire so they've got nothing to do

Luke and Leia twist doesn't totally work and wasn't necessary

Storm Troopers made to look stupid as they're defeated by sticks and rocks

The Emperor's plan to use himself as bait is not only stupid but backfires

Luke's conflict about joining the dark side is ultimately pointless because the Rebels blow up the Death Star 2 anyway

Death Star 2 is lazy writing

>>64599823
That said, the fundamental shape of the final battle, with natives defeating imperial invaders using guerilla tactics, is not out of place given Star Wars' context, coming on the heels of the Vietnam War and serving in a way as wish fulfillment for its perpetrators.

>>64599595
>>64599612

The "what could have been" is a good glimpse into what is so unsatisfactory about Return of the Jedi. The movie is well crafted, has some good performances, the visuals were insane in 1983 and some of them are still pretty insane today. However there are story issues and character issues. You could just say "Han Solo doesn't really do anything in Return of the Jedi, he could be replaced by anyone." But knowing why he doesn't do anything helps paint a better picture of why that flaw is a flaw. People criticize the death star II all the time because it's a goofy rehash and makes the empire seem silly ( just like how people hate the starkiller in TFA ). You could make a broad statement like "I don't like the death star II, it doesn't make a lot of sense and I don't know why it's in there." and again having context as to why they went that direction helps to paint a clearer picture.

Star Wars was an ambitious B-movie that tried a lot of new things while having the most generic and time-tested story possible. Empire Strikes Back tried a lot of new things, had ( for the time ) incredible special effects, and essentially was a movie in which all of our main characters fail and left the series with a cliffhanger. Return of the Jedi was kind of a missed opportunity that while still a great movie suffered behind the scenes and a lot of those sufferings made their way on-screen.

You can't really separate the behind the scenes issues of a movie from what is going on on-screen if you really want to understand why certain things in a movie didn't work. The prequels all feel kind of bad but you never really understand why until you watch Lucas direct them.

>>64599714
good observations; and the post after.

>>64599864
Kasdan and Ford wanted him to die at the end of Empire, then again blowing up the second Death Star.

I agree his arc was over in Empire, or really even in ANH. Still, if he died purposefully on the Death Star II that could add to his arc going from asshole smuggler to turning down money and doing the right thing to falling in love instead of lust to choosing to give up that love for something greater than himself.

>>64599939
>Han and Leia finished their arc in Empire so they've got nothing to do
I keep seeing people say this shit, and I honestly think it's an incredibly dumb complaint. What do you want them to do? Abandon helping and supporting their friend?

>>64599997
The story was treated with tongue firmly in cheek.

Nothing wrong other than the scenes after the speeder bike chase on endor. Endor is a total snooze fest compared to the rest of the flick.

>>64600017
I'd want them to have a real role in the story and not just be observers to Ewok shenanigans. You could put Lando and Niem Nub on Endor and Han and Leia in the Falcon and nothing changes. They service the plot and nothing more

>>64600017
I don't mean they literally are doing nothing. I mean they're not doing anything interesting. In Empire, Han has gone from a scoundrel to a hero, and Leia is able to accept that she loves someone. But that's then these characters finished. What direction can you take them in from here, story wise? Return of the Jedi didn't even bother

>>64600017
Their arc didn't have to finish in Empire but Lucas and Kasdan seemed uninterested in developing their story further.

>>64600017
yes anon, thats exactly what they mean.

It brings nothing new to the table. We've already seen Tatooine, Dagobah, the Death Star, etc. Endor just looks like the forests of Northern California and the only thing we ever see on it are the ewoks, which are not compelling in any way.

We've already seen a big space battle in the first movie, and it was done better back then. It's made worse by straight up being a second Death Star.

We've already seen a big terrestrial battle on Hoth in Empire, and it was done better back then.

There's already been a big protracted lightsaber fight between Luke and Vader in Empire, and, once again, it was done better back then.

They needed to introduce something more. What that have could been I have no idea, it's hard to keep it fresh after two movies. But literally just recycling shit like the Death Star was the worst way to go about it.

And like others have said, the pacing is way off and there's a lot of "shoe-leather" scenes and exposition to set up the climax, and none of that stuff is made to be interesting in and of itself.

The ending also lacks any kind of emotional nuance and is super unsatisfying.

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>>64599176
jaba is great but the infiltration doesn't make any sense and the scene doesn't serve the story as a whole.

forrest moon of endor should have been kashyyk with wookies. teddybears taking down the empire is lame.

han / leia serve no purpose and they wait by the door for too long.

han doesn't die, him and chewie alone should've infiltrated kashyyk to disable the shield. maybe the wookies should've been slaves and to liberate them han has sacrifice himself.

too many sit down and talk scenes in shot / reverse shot. what the fuck is up with that ben kenobi scene.

that said, the emperor and space battle scenes are fucking amazing.

>>64600017

The point is that as they are written in RotJ they literally do nothing. You could replace han solo with generic rebel general, and Leia as his attache and the story is no different after Jabba's palace.

If they weren't going to kill of Han and use Leia somewhere else they should have written a script that utilized his character in an interesting fun way. Maybe he uses his black market know-how and contacts to recruit a bunch of scoundrels and thieves to help in some part of overthrowing the empire in the 3rd act. Idk, the point is that his character is effectively written out of the story and he's there in name only.

Endor was like filler material before the end.

I can see why people don't like ewoks. But as a 12 year old kid, I loved them and now I like them out of nostalgia.

Wicket is kawaii.

>>64600191

Han's arc is not complete until he says "I love you" to Leia, and she says "I know".

>>64600163
I think they should have killed off Han. Seriously. He could have died in a sacrificial way, forever being immortalized as a Rebel hero. Leia would have the tragedy of losing the love of her life. She could seek solace in Luke (not her brother), but as a Jedi he knows he is needed else where and rides into the binary sunset

>>64599176
I loved all of it
Best star wars movie ever tbqh

>>64599939
>Death Star 2 is lazy writing

This is the biggest part of it. In the 1st one, you see all these strange new characters and places. You see the Death Star, and what it's capable of, and get to go inside it with the other characters, escape it, and BLOW IT THE FUCK UP.

In the 2nd, we're introduced to even more strange and unique characters like Yoda or Lando, or new and mysterious places like Dagobah or Cloud City.

Then in the 3rd one, you just re-visit all of these places and characters, and just sort of "wrap things up". The only new location is Endor, and it isn't visually that much different from Yavin IV in the first one. And the only lifeform you really see besides plants are the Ewoks. And I guess there's Admiral Aqbar and that creepy guy Lando flies with.

tl;dr on a very superficial level, the first 2 just had more variety, depth, and originality than the 3rd. In my opinion, the direction and writing are best in the 2nd tho.

Too much unnecessary bullshit. The other two films were very concise and everything had a purpose. This was just a bunch of nonsense to fill time until they got to the conclusion.

>>64599176
There aren't enough kooky aliens. They did a good job filling empty spaces with creatures, but they really left a lot of open, wasted areas.

Can you really call yourself a Star Wars fan if you like 2 out of 7 movies?

>>64599714
i'm wondering why it didn't turn out worse

we see what happens when lucas has control over everything, and we can see a lot of that in rotj, but there is still some really good stuff in it.

>>64600660
I like the OT. the 3rd one has a lot of flaws yes but there is genius in it. And what does it even mean nowadays to be a fan of a franchise anyways. To indulge yourself in mindless merchandising and eating up everything they shove down your throat?

>>64600660
Nope. A Star Wars fan is someone who doesn't give a shit about good film making and was brainwashed by the few good ones to believe that every other one is just as good because it has the Star Wars name. It takes a very special kind of person to be a Star Wars fan nowadays.

This is my favorite scene of the OT to be honest

https://youtube.com/watch?v=en8bh60K7m8

you can almost see Anakin crying beneath the mask at the end

If you're a fan of the Force side of the franchise it's the best movie bar none. It's the culmination of a war that has been raging for likely tens of thousands of years, and the central war in the franchise. The one that dominoed into all the others.

If you don't like anything to do with The Force and find it boring then there is little of interest to be found in ROTJ.

Despite its flaws, everything bad about RotJ is made up for by both the space battle, and the exchange and fight at 2:05:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_RFYoZ7H67A

Which is probably the best scene in all of Star Wars, except maybe the I am your father in ESB

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There is not much going on for the entire movie so every scene streches out as long as it can. Han Solo has NOTHING to do in this movie so they just gave him a stupid mission (take down the shields) and spend the rest of the movie with him shooting stormtroopers. And that's basically it for everybody. The whole movie is just a bunch of people waiting while others stay in one place shooting random stormtroopers with no emotional stakes at all. Plus Ewoks.

The beginning with Jaba and Han's rescue and the end with Luke x Dark Side are the good parts. The rest of the movie feels like filler. And it is, really. The only new thing they had to add was the conclusion of Luke's story with Vader and becoming a Jedi. The rest is just "huh...how do we fill a 2 hours movie?". The whole battle of Endor is pretty boring and the Death Star vs Rebels shit is the exact same thing that was in A New Hope. It's a filler movie that just had one thing to conclude, Luke's story, and had to fill up the rest with something for the other characters to do.

People saying ROTJ is the worst of the trilogy because of Ewoks have shit taste in movies, sorry. Ewoks are definitely one of the reasons why it's worse than the rest but movie-wise, RoTJ is worse because of narrative. It's a big repetition of ANH with only one actually engaging and plot-moving point: Luke's story. The rest is boring filler, except for the very beginning of the movie with Solo's rescue because that was something that they actually had to conclude from the second film.

>>64600660
I've only seen 6, and I like (more or less) 4 of 6 of those. I have high hopes for VII, but muh autism makes me want to wait in order to avoid crowds and ACTUAL fanboys. Hell, I even liked Ep 1 when it came out (I was 10 and grew up on the originals), although II has always been a severe disappointment.

I spent almost every sick day up to age 10 in memory watching the OT, and countless hours spent playing Battlefront, Rogue Squadron, Shadow of the Empire (barely even a Star Wars game after the first 5 levels), or other Star Wars themed games.

So yeah, I can call myself a Star Wars fan. I think I'm more of a fan for pointing out things I didn't like, while still loving the franchise and universe as a whole.

it has a shit sequel, that is what is wrong

Forgot to mention, you can literally watch the beginning with them rescuing Han and then the end (adding a few key scenes) with Luke and Vader and then him on the death star and you've seen it all. No need to watch Endor at all.

>>64600749
There were some inevitable conclusions that were impossible to fuck up. There was no way that Luke's confrontation with the Emperor and his fight with Vader wasn't going to be satisfying on at least some level.

>>64601274

Are you sure there's "NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO" way to mess up that final scene?

>>64599176

Filmed like a cheap, grainy, 80s tv movie. Shitty cinematography that isn't as good as the preceding movies. Midgets and children running around in muppet teddy bear outfits. No character progression for Han or Leia. Harrison Ford phones in his whole performance and is given nothing to do. The plot and story are safe. In one of the most contrived moments of any movie, Luke and Leia turn out to be siblings. The pacing in the middle of the movie between Jabba's Palace and the climax is slow and absolutely horrid. We're introduced to a second Death Star. The Emperor's best men (as he refers to them) on Endor are buffoons and taken out by said midget children running around a California Forrest in muppet teddy bear outfits.

The only saving grace to the movie is Jabba the Hutt, Luke Skywalker and Emperor Palpatine. It's an okay children's movie but deserves to be characterized as a "bad' film, as you put it. People assume that Star Wars went down hill and became a soulless toy commercial with the Phantom Menace in 1999, but it really started with Return of the Jedi in 1983.

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>>64601183
Fuck, I forgot to talk about Leia. The whole Leia is Luke's sister shit is completely rammed up there because Lucas is fucking insane. It comes out of nowhere and it's such a shitty decision that it doesn't even impact Leia's actions throughout the movie. She just found out that Darth fucking Vader, the man who tortured her, is her father AND Luke's father and that comes with no emotional reaction or development for her in the movie. Why? Because it wasn't an actual decision made to add something interesting to the movie. Lucas just had to explain the intriguing Yoda dialogue in ESB and give something to add to Leia's character since she was so unimportant after ANH.

Every character who's not Luke, Vader or the emperor are disposable in this film. They do nothing. It's all filler. No wonder Ford wanted Solo to die in the beginning. He has nothing to do for the rest of the movie. Solo is a joke in this film. Everybody is. Only the beginning and the end are important for this movie.

I don't mind Endor as a sequence but it hurts the flow of the film. When they first introduced the Ewoks they have to do all the bullshit with the characters trying to communicate with them, trying to befriend them, etc. and this starts at 1 hour 10 minutes into the film.

>>64599176

Ewoks were crap. The final space battle is also crap, Especially the completely retarded Executor scene. Characters who are not Luke feel pointless.

>>64600660
This is something worth considering. I would not consider myself or others like-minded to be a "true" Star Wars fan. I think that would mean being a fan of all of it. I am a fan of the original trilogy. RotJ is a flawed movie but still a good watch and a worthy conclusion. But the prequels lost me. I think most or all of the ideas introduced in them are dreadful and the universe that was built up around these movies does not interest me at all.

I liked VII though

>>64599714

Not to mention that entire talk with Yoda and Obi's ghost that Luke should not go to Bespin. Then he goes anyways and suffers no consequences at all.

That entire plot point is completely forgotten in VI.

>>64599431

>Richard Marquand was a flaccid weak director that Lucas hired to be his bitch boy and the movie feels uninspired as a result
Something that you can only know by looking into the production process. I doubt you watched the thing saying 'surely george lucas isn't responsible for this!'
>The Death Star II was a cost-saving measure by Lucas because he didn't want to spend the money to create the Imperial homeworld where the final battle was supposed to take place
Same as above. I guess you're a person who needs a scene to be as expensive as possible to enjoy it, or if you hear that a more expensive idea was available then it must have been better. If you find out your favorite movie's best scene was competing with another idea for that scene which cost more money, but they chose your scene instead, does the scene you enjoyed not count?
>Han Solo was supposed to die early in the movie since they weren't sure he would come back for Jedi because he wasn't contractually obligated. As a result he has nothing to do for 70% of the film and his and Leia's roles on Endor could have been anyone
For the most part I agree with you, except saying that their parts could have been replaced. Anyone can be replaced, in terms of functionality. Leia and Han can be replaced by faceless nobodies, or characters with faces we haven't seen before and therefore don't care about, who do the same things. Besides that, Leia and Han have character specific scenes between eachother in the Ewok village, Han worrying about her attachment to Luke, and Han forgiving her only to find out Luke is her brother. I guess they should have had Nien Nub do that instead, huh?
>the last thing you said
I don't prefer the stuff on the surface of Endor's moon but if you want to shit on The Battle of Endor for taking time from the movie then the whole thing turns into a forest adventure next to an unrelated character climax with Emperor and Luke. The Battle of Endor is the sickest shit

>>64601399
>Fuck, I forgot to talk about Leia. The whole Leia is Luke's sister shit is completely rammed up there because Lucas is fucking insane.
Add to that, later on Han goes out of character and is jealous of their intimacy despite there really being nothing to lose sleep over

>>64599176
Wish we could have gotten Kasdans versions of Leia struggling being the head of the Rebellion, Luke being more of a Clint Eastwood type and the climax being on Coruscant. Could have been even greater than what we got.

>>64601157

But the space battle is shit. Imperial pilots fly like if they were fucking drunk. And Vader's command ship gets destroyed by one A-wing.

And why didn't Death Star just fire at Base One with it's first shoot to kill Ackbar and entire Rebel command?

>>64601157
Star Wars peaked with, "The force is with you, young Skywalker. But you are not a Jedi yet."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-DeI3ohVbY

Those thirty seconds or so before Luke and Vader fight are perfect. It's steeped in atmosphere. And Vader's silhouette in the darkness is fantastic and eerie. You really get the sense that Luke has just stepped into something he doesn't understand or isn't ready for.

>>64601542
>Same as above

Nope. I'm not the guy you're quoting but you don't have to be a genius to think that repeating the same threat from the first movie is lazy as fuck and comes off as cost-saving measures. Not necessarily financials, but time and artistic.

>have to sit down and come up with something new
>ah fuck it just repeat the same old shit again

That's one of the biggest backlashes that TFA is facing right now.

> Han worrying about her attachment to Luke, and Han forgiving her only to find out Luke is her brother

Oh you mean the two scenes that have nothing to do with the entire boring battle they were involved in for the entire movie? Great job taking the only exceptions to base your rule on.

>>64599176
Carrie Fisher wasn't in the slave costume throughout the entire movie.

>>64601626

Yup. I don't hate Return of the Jedi, Phantom Menace, Revenge of the Sith, the Force Awakens or Attack of the clones, they have some good moments in them, but . . .
A New Hope and The Empire Strikes Back are the only good Star Wars movies from beginning to end.

>>64601500

I was actually just thinking about that.

Not only should there be no consequences, maybe Yoda and Obi-Wan could have finally coughed up some self inflection about their shit head Jedi teachings of completely ignoring your emotions might not have been the best way to go all this time and Luke heaved the Sheev in both taking what they had to say along with going in a bit of a new direction instead of looking like a bunch of smug blue bodied fuck sticks like they just totally called the entire thing while bopping to Yub Nub

>>64601703

Some of my friends were thinking that they will expand on this in TFA. That ultimately it led Luke to fall to the Dark Side.

But nah, kids wanted hermit Luke so here he is.

Has everyone on this board forgotten what it means to be an audience member, in order to play the intellectual role of a critic? What does being a critic do for you?

>>64601274

Oh I don't know man

Anyway there is a huge gap between a satisfying denouement and one of the GOATs

>>64599176
Once luke ducks out on his friends to go find Vader, nothing happens on the forest moon for like 30 minutes.

Everything else works pretty well.

>>64599714
>You could just say "they rescued Han already"

What the fuck? No.

>>64600485
>the first 2 just had more variety, depth, and originality than the 3rd

Empire doesn't have more. Desolate ice world, Dagobah, Cloud City.

This "Jabba's palace was unnecessary" meme just reveals autism. The whole point was to show the sacrifice one makes for friends and loved ones. The willingness to put the war on hold was exactly the point.

>>64599176
Leia and Han's roles could be replaced by anybody. Like it doesn't make much sense for Han or Leia, who was kinda running things at the time, to go instead of some commando or special forces. It felt like they were there because there was an obligation to give them something to do. It should've been Lando, Han and Chewie in the Falcon at the end, Leia in the cruiser with Akbar and some commando guys who were led by Luke in Endor.

The ewoks worked imho but George was thinking about kiddie appeal with these guys.

That's it really. It's still a great movie like the first two just had some flaws with the prequel mindset.

>>64602307
What do you mean? People enjoy well crafted movies.

If you find a movie to be bad or mediocre, there's nothing wrong with dissecting why.

I just want to understand, what was the Emperor's plan?

I mean, I really just don't understand what kind of larger vision he had for everything. Was he just going to fly a fleet of Death Stars around blowing up all the aliens planets so that he could be space hitler forever?

>>64601500
>no consequences
>loses an arm

>What exactly do you consider "bad" about this film?

The dialogue, the pacing, and the plot.

>>64602810
>build a new Death Star
>give Rebels the plans to draw out an attack on the Endor shield generator and the Death Star itself
>con them into thinking the station is not operational
>ambush the commando group on Endor
>ambush the Rebel fleet near the Death Star
>use Rebellion's failure to turn Luke to the Dark side

>>64602810
>Was he just going to fly a fleet of Death Stars around blowing up all the aliens planets so that he could be space hitler forever?
He's and Evil Wizard. Does he actually need deeper motivation for "ruling the galaxy."

inb4 muh vong invasion

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Because we were originally going to get:
>Empire fortifies itself in secure system that the Rebels have to battle through
>The system would include an enslaved Wookie planet that the Empire uses to produce important resources
>Chewbacca would get a chance to shine and lead a Wookie revolt

But instead we got C3P0 leading a bunch of ugly teddy bears that pathetically defeating the Empire's elite soldiers with arrows and rope.

>>64602994
It's been a while since I've seen Jedi but I don't really remember any temptation from Luke for the dark side?

What the fuck was Sheev's plan after Luke had critically maimed Vader and still wasn't prepared to turn? Instead of having one dependable apprentice, he now has none?

>>64603199
>after Luke had critically maimed Vader
He cut off Vader's robot hand. What the fuck are you smoking?

>>64603199
Luke is on the verge of falling to the Dark side the entire movie. From the way he dresses, the way he fucks up Jabba's guards, the way he taunts Jabba before his "execution" and then he goes full Dark side and fights with pure rage in order to beat Vader.

>What the fuck was Sheev's plan after Luke had critically maimed Vader and still wasn't prepared to turn?
There was none, the moment when Luke throws away his lightsaber and says "I'm a Jedi, like my father before me" is the moment Emperor's plan fails, you can even see how he instantly loses his shit eating grin. At that point I guess he just decided to kill Luke and stick with maimed Vader but Luke's refusal of the Dark side inspires Vader to save him.

Luke doesn't win when he beats Vader, he wins when he fully commits to being a Jedi and refusing to kill his father.

>>64603613
Vader is wheezing and dies ten minutes later. He was fucked.

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>>64599176
The last 30 minutes with the Battle of Endor and Palpy battle is one of the best moments of the OT

The rest of the movie is average

>>64602994
That's a bingo. The Emperor is a self-defeating arrogant and prideful dope. That's due to him being evil, and why he is defeated by what is good. He doesn't believe in what is good, and that's why when Luke turns out to be a faithful good guy he makes his angry 'so be it' face.

>>64603199
Emperor genuinely believes power is temptation enough. His temptation isn't convincing because he's a prideful fool. He dies for it.

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>>64603688
This was the moment he was about to turn to the Dark Side

The Ewoks ruined it for me. A Nazi-esche legion of badasses was taken down by...teddybears. It had potentially to be really good, but everything after the speeder chase is kindof dumb. Han solo knocking out a storm trooper, when he really should be piloting the Millenium Falcon, 10 minutes spent of the cast hanging out with Ewoks slowed the movie down, and the the constant transitioning from the Endor fight to the space battle to the lightsaber fight ruined the flow.

>>64600660
>Implying there aren't any Star Wars games, comics or books to enjoy

>>64603932
That was after the emperor shot his stupid ass up with lightning.

>>64599176
I like how Han and Leia became completely useless

>>64604744
Would have made more sense for Han to be in the Falcon while Lando was at the teddy bear picnic.

>>64603145
Was this basically an omen for shitty this prequels what the fuck was George thinking when they made ROJ it's not bad just lazy

>>64604468
those teddy-bears ate people, and they were a throwback to pygmy natives that would show up in these types of adventure serials

>>64602783
He went from targeting the child in everyone (like any good work of children's lit or movie) to just targeting kids.

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>>64604800
ROTJ basically revealed that Luke was always superior to those two dead weights.

>>64601673

kek

>>64604155

This. You can really see it in his face and demeanour. This scene was acted brilliantly and it's why I love ROTJ so much.

>>64599176
Wasn't ROTJ considered the best of the OT at the time it came out?