Going ONLY on what we've seen in the movies so far, who is the most powerful force user, and what feats prove this?
I fucking hate the character, but I'm probably gonna go for Yoda. He was old and weak as heel in the original trilogy but in the prequels he absorbed Sheev's lightning blast and shot it back at him.
Vader. Sure yoda was able to stop sith lightning and could lift heavy things, but vader was able to force choke someone through the tv screen without so much as to even lift his hand.
But for a serious answer, Rey. No training whatsoever. Never used the force before. She somehow manages to have a stronger force pull than Kylo and takes the saber from him.
>She somehow manages to have a stronger force pull than Kylo and takes the saber from him.
No. Why would it stay in place for any time then?
Either Kylo was too unfocused to pull it at the time or it was an excalibur moment.
It's why the whole thing with Rey is horse shit.
First of all, both of them are standing in the same direction trying to pull the lightsaber and somehow it doesnt budge at all, despite 2 force pulls.
Second, she doesn't know jack shit about the force and doesn't even fucking remember its a thing until shes saber clashed with Kylo when he brings it up again.
So yeah, I guess if we are going by the movies then Rey is the more powerful force user because she can out force someone trained by luke and snoke without every having used the force before. DOnt get me wrong, im not happy about it either. Im just going by OP rules.
Easy there, all I said is that power level shit is not how the force works. I didn't say anything about Rey or TFA. I didn't say anything about what makes a good narrative. You boogeyman paranoid fuck.
These characters don't have set levels they always operate at, Luke can beat Vader in RotJ without being a stronger force user than he is. Power level talk directly implies this stupid math of (years training)(force multiplyer)=power level. If it doesn't, who cares about power levels if they can fluctuate depending on circumstances?
>who cares about power levels if they can fluctuate depending on circumstances?
being able to fluctuate doesn't mean they magically don't exist. yoda losing a fight with some random padawan would be retarded no matter how many plot fairies decided to awaken their force
>both of them are standing in the same direction trying to pull the lightsaber and somehow it doesnt budge at all, despite 2 force pulls.
How do you know she's pulling it when it's not moving? How do you know Kylo is being succesful on his own plus or minus Rey's pull? You seem to be filling in a lot of details on your own there.
> she doesn't know jack shit about the force
She's been shown telekinesis, but this entire final sequence is more about letting the force win for you than Rey being such a great fighter anyway.
>doesn't even fucking remember its a thing until shes saber clashed with Kylo when he brings it up again.
Yeah she totally forgot about that mind trick she just did or all the shit she's seen Kylo do or all the stories she heard about Luke and the jedi. She isn't just remembering the force, she's remembering what Maz said to her. I swear some people are so fucking stupid or willfully ignoring obvious shit.
And to top it all off you're treating Kylo Ren like this badass dark side user when his entire character is poser with a strong front.
>the power to destroy a planet is insignificant compared to the power of the force
the only one that ever demonstrated this was sheev by force manipulating the entire galaxy to give him absolute power and by completely blinding the entire jedi order
>all of this grasping
We know Kylo is a good force user, even if he may be shit at fighting he's got the mental part down.
There is no fucking reason for her to whimsically be getting a saber he's specifically force drawing for, then acting all surprised like "oh whoops, didn't even know I had it in me."
Fuck, that whole fucking scene is infuriating. Fucking harry potter bullshit.
Yeah but Yoda could lose to a padawan in a given context. See if power levels are still dependent on context than who needs to argue about them?
Dooku beats Obi-Wan
Anakin beats Dooku
Obi-Wan beats Anakin
Where is the utility in power levels?
you ability to lift different weights changes slightly over time. some days your muscles just aren't in as good of shape as another day. are you so retarded you're going to pretend physical strength doesn't exist?
those guys are all powerful force users. the titans beating the panthers is a thing that could happen occasionally. the local high school beating the titans is not. you're just such a dipshit that you pretend the only way having different levels of ability matter is if they're eternally unchanging.
Anakin is winning the fight against Obi-Wan most of the way and the only reason Obi Wan holds out is due to having trained Anakin, fighting similarly, and knowing how to defend himself against him.
He catches him in a moment of young rash boneheaded idiocy that spells his loss.
>all this grasping
See how easy it is to type that and how little it changes anything? You don't get to right off points and arguments with greentext and pretend they aren't there.
>We know Kylo is a good force user
In certain contexts. Kylo is great when leading successful missions, intimidating officer assholes, or dealing with someone like Finn.
You know when he's not a badass? When he fails at mind reading Rey and kills his dad. I wonder if all that obvious set up means anything about Kylo Ren's ability with the force.
>then acting all surprised like "oh whoops, didn't even know I had it in me
Why the fuck wouldn't she be surprised? It's the first time she moves shit with her mind, that's gonna give you pause for a second.
>Fucking harry potter bullshit.
Fucking arthurian legend bullshit you mean. The force is literally magic you dumb fuck.
>Kylo reaches for the saber attempting to pull it. Nothing happens.
Did he just forget probably one of the simplest force related abilities all of a sudden? Did getting shot suddenly stop him from being able to use the force?
Also notice how he still tried to pull it to him when it suddenly moved, flying by him and straight to Rey. Sure, maybe she wasnt pulling it the whole time he was, but he was trying the entire time, showing Rey's pull beat Kylo's.
>Letting the force win for you
So instead of Rey being a Mary Sue, the reasoning behind her winning is that the light side of the force won it for her? How come Yoda lost to Sheev then if the good force users get that kind of convenience?
And for your last point, Kylo has her on the fucking losing side of the fight, he brings up the force and shes just like "oh yeah, the force" and closes her eyes for a minute while Kylo watches, then she suddenly is able to defeat Kylo thanks to...hard thinking.
Im not saying Kylo is badass, Im saying hes trained with Luke, the last fucking Jedi and son of the most powerful force user, and Snoke, an evil dark side user. He can stop a blaster shot mid-air at full speed and read minds. Rey has done nothing and manages to one-up him at dueling, resisting his telepathy, and force pulling.
I swear, you Rey-fu faggots will do anything to justify how poorly written Rey is.
>Force literally magic that does what it wants and lightsabers have masters
Dropped, you're a fruitcake
fuck off to Harry Potter
>I read about a spell once, here let me try this neat trick out for myself!
>hates the classic hero tale part of star wars
So you don't like Star Wars, shit anon that's fine it isn't for everyone. Sometimes things you don't like aren't flaws in a movie, they're just things you don't like.
The worst thing about "hurr force did it" is that it completely trivializes the struggle of the characters. They've turned the Force into this malevolent supernatural entity that simply uses people as its playthings. If it wanted to, it could completely destroy the dark side, but it's more fun this way.
>>CONTEXT NEVER EXISTS REEEEEE
Too retarded to even come up with a coherent troll response huh? Context exists but suddenly going from never having used the force to being stronger in the force than some guy that just threw you 30 feet into a tree over the course of a day is totally out of line with established variance. She's a mary sue.
>hates retconned bullshit
just because Star Wars takes inspiration from other things doesn't mean it has to be lifted whole cloth. Lightsabers were never shown to have wills of their own, but now they do, because "muh space magic".
It's fucking stupid, it will ALWAYS be stupid, and you're stupid for liking it. End of.
>Force literally magic
Watch Empire again, are you implying it isn't magic?
>that does what it wants
It partially controls your actions but it also obeys your commands.
>lightsabers have masters
I never said the lightsaber is making these things happen, the force is.
Please spout 'harry potter' some more you fuck, really shows how much you know about Star Wars.
Based on feats alone?
Yoda. He lifted the X Wing out of the swamp. Nobody else lifted anything as heavy with the Force. I'm assuming that this makes him the most powerful based on what we've seen because I am assuming it takes more force or to be more powerful in the force to lift heavier things - Luke could lift his lightsaber with the force but not the X Wing.
After that, it gets sketchy.
The Emperor is obviously better than Vader is obviously better than Luke.
Obi Wan is better than Luke.
It isn't magic. It is an energy that surrounds and penetrates us. It binds the galaxy together. It's what gives a Jedi its power. Life creates it and makes it grow.
That's not the same as magic because magic is supernatural where as in universe, the force is very natural.
>Fucking arthurian legend bullshit you mean.
Prophecy/destiny/fate/chosen one shit is so annoying in star wars
Like I get alluding to old literature is cool, but that stuff just makes the movie worse. Everything is predetermined and is going to go a certain way, it's not characters deciding the future for themselves.
Can you imagine the OT if yoda or obi wan told luke he was destined to achieve his purpose? Wow what a relief. For a moment there I thought he could fail and everything could go to shit forever, I'll call it tension, or suspense in short moments. That would be stressful if they put it in a movie.
So: Yoda lifted an X Wing and heavyvstatues. Dooku lifted only heavy statues.
Based on feats alone, Yoda would be the strongest.
These questions are always meaningless because there are no good answers.
It isn't """""just""""" inexplicable magic. It's a power that pervades life that needs to be understood and harnessed.
I'll spout "harry potter" because that's exactly what you're implying. Like if you're force sensitive you can meander along and pick up cool trix and spells along the way and like that fucking saber (to go along with your dumbass excalibur analogy) "chose" Rey over Kylo because it "belongs" to her.
You're trivializing everything about Star Wars, fuck you, the force isn't some whimsical deus ex machina.
I'm not defending shit, she's a mary sue and the most boring main character in the movie. I'm correcting anon on how a scene happened. Her being better than Kylo naturally or the force picking her doesn't change anything about if she earned that victory or not.
I get annoyed when anons go to the point of criticizing her being surprised the lightsaber flew to her. That's just looking for shit to bitch about.
I'm not rationalizing it after the fact, the movie presents all this as it unfolds. Nice non-argument though faggot.
>Lightsabers were never shown to have wills of their own
They still don't, no one is saying the lightsaber has this sentient personality. I'm just saying the force was at play.
Pretty much. Maybe, MAYBE the next movie will shed some light on why shes as strong as she is or why she seems to be able to use the force so naturally, but from what we were shown as of now, she is a poorly written character whos greatest power is having the writers on her side equipping her with the tools to not only overcome any obstacle she faces, but also trump experienced people in their respective fields.
But hey, at least shes cute and waifu material right? That makes her completely shit character worth defending I guess.
No they don't. They say he has the most midichlorians and they say he's the chosen one.
Never is anything definitive stated about his strength. Obviously midichlorian count doesn't count for everything, else he would have beaten Obi Wan.
>Nobody else lifted anything as heavy with the Force. I'm assuming that this makes him the most powerful based on what we've seen because I am assuming it takes more force or to be more powerful in the force to lift heavier things - Luke could lift his lightsaber with the force but not the X Wing.
There is no more or less force, just the force.
The reason yoda can lift the x-wingis he knows it is light. The only thing that stops luke from lifting the x-wing is he knows it is heavy.
Who the fuck wrote that shit, it's great.
I disagree with this. She's a savant.
Remember the movie Good Will Hunting? How Matt Damon's character was a genius, better than any graduate student or even the professor who had won a fields medal? At one point, they talk about a paper and the prof says something like "oh you used maclaurin here" and Matt's character says "I don't know what it's called".
She's like Will Hunting.
She's one of those people who as soon as you let her know she has a skill, she can use and master it immediately. Like Ender in Enders Game, like chess prodigies who beat Grand Masters when they're children, and like people like Terrence Tao who enter college at age 11.
Obiwan is getting his ass handed to him in his honorable duel with Grievous - note that Grievous commands his forces to hold their fire so it can be a fair fight - so Obiwan shoots him the chest with an assault rifle. Then he says guns are bad.
Obiwan is a really nuanced character.
>luminous beings are we, not this crude matter
Don't be obtuse.
Are you done yet? You're adding nothing new and just keep crying "harry potter! harry potter!" Get a new line or fuck off.
I'm sorry the obvious sword in the stone imagery went over your head. I'm sorry you think excalibur is Harry Potter shit. That you even think I'm completely making it up makes me wonder if you even watch movies and can identify symbols and visual references like that.
You're making the force this mundane thing you go to jedi school to practice lightsabers everyday for. The force isn't a deus ex machina, that you think that's how TFA ends shows how little you understand the movie or the words you spew out.
I hate how the movie is called the force awakens, yet we never find out what the means or if it actually happened. It's a "who is the phantom menace?" question.
We also learn nothing new about the force, in fact it's a regression. I feel bad for young audiences watching their first star wars movie. Instead of the force being a statement about the power of belief, it's just convenient magic tricks.
>She's like Will Hunting.
She's like good will hunting if Will just learned about math the previous day. Math prodigies that are smarter than professors are an actual thing that exists in the universe the movie is set in (reality). Force prodigies as retardedly op as rey were never shown to exist until now.
It's Vader or Palpatine. I say Palpatine because when Vader defeated him I really think that was more a brute force/ Love of his son move more so than knowledge of Jedi/Sith arts, Hell may even had something to do with a large part of him being artificial.
>I'm sorry the obvious sword in the stone imagery went over your head
Pretty sure it didn't. Audible fucking groan. It's a saber, not a sentient entity.
How is that a defense for fucking with the nature of the SW universe? Sabers don't have feelings or masters, and the Force isn't a collection of magic tricks.
TFA doesn't even fucking know what it is because on one hand it rehashes everything we already know about the OT and on the other it contradicts it in the most annoying ways possible.
I don't buy this honestly. I'm sure Luke could lift the X Wing after his training even knowing it was heavy.
I'm pretty sure some people are stronger in the force than others. In fact, this is often stated and shown.
You sure? As far as I remember, the ability to destroy a planet is nothing compared to the power of the force, and the ability to wield a light saber isn't anything compared to the ability to destroy a planet, so...
I'm glad you included anything I'm ignoring in your post and just simply said I am. This isn't twitter, the character limit is a little longer here.
I'm glad you go to the waifu card.
>person disagrees with you
>they must be a hardcore loyalist to some idea/character/website
>now that i've said that I don't have to argue anymore
Don't you have a capeshit thread to spam?
How fucking retarded can you be to think that taking the force back to a place of belief after the prequels is turning it into mindless dreck. What part of the prequel version of the force wasn't mindless dreck and how does how TFA present the force contradict with the OT in anyway?
>the ability to destroy a planet is nothing compared to the power of the force
well that seems pretty false from everything we've seen. maybe you should stop being retardedly literal
Your point? Still not magic. It requires no gestures, no rituals, no spells, no magic words, and doesn't require supernatural anything. It's a completely natural phenomenon in the SW universe. Look up the definition of magic and you'll see its not magic.
Yes. Like Ender and chess prodigies or Daniel Tammet.
I honestly don't have a problem with Rey doing the things she did with the force precisely because people like that exist IRL.
It isn't like she did anything complex or something that had to be specifically learned (like lightnjng) - she was able to use the simple powers very effectively and quickly. She reminds me of someone like Gauss, who would correct his father's accounting ledgers at age 3. Or Ramanujan.
because even if what you say is true, the only reason it doesn't suck is because luke has to overcome significant character flaws to allow him to harness the force. when the main character uses the force like it's nothing, you FEEL nothing. it isn't exciting, or satisfying to see. it's "oh i wonder what AMAAAAAAZING thing she's going to do next". which is fucking boring.
rey made the force fucking boring. THAT'S why it's mindless dreck.
He said you should let the force guide you. So obviously that means you can just let the force puppet your body around in order to overcome any obstacle. She's lucky the force is a good sword fighter.
That's probably a better description than mary sue
As it stands though, it's still pretty bad. We're not savants and we never feel like rey. I've never seen Good Will Hunting but I imagine matt damon's character has some serious issues that are stonewalling him that we can relate to, unlike rey.
The problem with that is we already had our "force prodigy" in Anakin, literally borne of that shit, and he still carried a myriad of issues with him and needed a lot of training.
Where does that put her? Mega God Jedi Extreme? Maybe there's a better word for it, ah yes "Mary Sue".
>i'm arbitrarily going to declare that mind control and telekinesis don't have to be learned but lightning does.
if you think that's what the story is going for ok. too bad the rest of the series is going to be so boring what with rey magically facerolling everything because she's the most powerful thing ever
You're pretty much ignoring the facts that were made clear in the movie.
>Kylo is trained. Rey is not.
>Rey had never used the force before and instinctively knew to use the mind trick after 2 failed attempts
>Rey, lacking experience, thinks back to what chick Yoda said to her earlier which is good enough to beat someone who worked hard to learn the ways of the force
There. This is the shit you are ignoring. You are basically saying that despite several movies showing us that using the force requires years of discipline and training, someone who has only ever heard stories and remembered some wise words(without actually ever using the force) should be able to beat someone trained.
You know whats more symbolic than a sword in stone reference?
Have the characters idolize the sword as a source of hope, a link to a warrior, then destroy it. It's just a weapon.
The difference with Will is that the movie isn't about him doing math. It's about something else. He's just exceedingly brilliant at it. Just like Rey is with the force.
Do you honestly have to feel like a character to enjoy a movie? Does it matter to you that you aren't a girl either, so you can never truly feel like her? Do you need a character to have problems like you do in order to identify or buy a movie? I'm not saying she has none, I'm just curious. Also watch Good Will Hunting. I realize the fact that you haven't seen it probably means you were born in 1997 or later.
He hates Yoda in general, but is acknowledging the fact that he was stronger in prequels. Also, fuck Yoda! That faggot could have stopped it all, but he let it happen. Suck a bunch of dicks he can!
>and all you have to do is murder every last Jedi in the galaxy including women and children
>but how will that save my wife Master Sheev?
>shut the fuck up Anakin you little pussy bitch
>Not just life, but life that is powerful with the force
nah his created life is pretty mediocre with the force. rey will probably catch up with anakin at the peak of his power after she hears someone say 'holocron'
He wasn't a force savant. He had the most midichlorians. But we know having lots of midichlorians doesn't make you s powerful force user in its own right - he lost to Dooku, Obi Wan, and Luke!
The fact that he needed training just means he was not a savant.
Most professors, even the smartest people, need lots of training to get where they are.
Then you have some people who are born incredibly intelligent, and can get to where professors are in a fraction of the time.
Look up Stephen Wolfram, Kim Young Un, Ted Kaczynski, Ramanujan, Gauss, John Von Neumann, Jose Capablanca, Terrence Tao, and Noam Elkies for examples of people I think are similar to Rey.
>Do you honestly have to feel like a character to enjoy a movie? Do you need a character to have problems like you do in order to identify or buy a movie?
On a very high/general level yes. 99% of us feel inadequate in big ways. Seeing a character that accomplishes everything they set out to do without struggling much is pretty boring. An underdog fits this type of story better anyway.
>The fact that he needed training just means he was not a savant.
>Stephen Wolfram, Kim Young Un, Ted Kaczynski, Ramanujan, Gauss, John Von Neumann, Jose Capablanca, Terrence Tao, and Noam Elkies
I know you're being intentionally retarded to justify mary sue's existance but you realize those people also needed training, right? They got where the average mathematician is in a fraction of the time but that fraction was not 1 day to 10 years.
Telekinesis she saw Kylo Ren perform.
Same with mind control. She probed his mind and had hers probed. Then she realized she could use the force, and really well (better than him). So, she tried using it to make the stormtrooper do what she wanted. And it worked. If I discovered I had the force tomorrow, I would do the same thing.
Besides, the first force sensitive person to ever do a Jedi mind trick also obviously didn't learn it from anyone. Someone one day applied the force to weak mjnded individuals and it worked. She did the same thing. It's fine.
Prove it was figurative. I'll wait.
Idk, I find James Bond movies really enjoyable. Don't you? When I watch a movie, I don't really care for artificially created conflict, hamfisted romance or "flaws" designed to make the movie "interesting". I would never keep a mental checklist of things like that and decide to not like a movie if my checklist isn't satisfied.
How does the force partially control you without a will? When is the last time you watched the OT?
>Look up the definition of magic and you'll see its not magic.
>implying the central theme magic isn't about controlling the supernatural
>It requires no gestures, no rituals, no spells, no magic words, and doesn't require supernatural anything.
All of those are incorrect.
>It's a completely natural phenomenon in the SW universe.
Are you saying that because of the former sentence or because it actually exists for that fictional reality?
This. Geniuses are geniuses because they process information differently. This doesnt meant that if you told a potential genius that he is good at math that the next day he will be creating new formulas. It takes a while.
It took Rey about a day and nobody ever told her she was capable of using the force.
>Idk, I find James Bond movies really enjoyable. Don't you?
I did as a kid but they bore me to death now. I can't tell if its the qualities of the stories or the fact that a repeated formula gets old. But if I had to guess I'd say if I can't get into the characters, everything else is hopeless. James Bond is definitely not character driven
why was finn and kylo's duel so much cooler than rey and kylos
was it because there was real chemistry between the actors and a believable reason to want to fight each other
or was it because daisy ridley is a terrible actor
My friend, my point is there are those that NEED training and then there are people like the kind I mentioned. Those who don't have training but have immense intelligence which lets them do things it takes normal people many years of training to accomplish.
>According to Capablanca, he learned the rules of the game at the age of four by watching his father play, pointed out an illegal move by his father, and then beat his father twice.
Read the articles to have examples of people who are extraordinary mjnds vs average (by their standards) people who need a lifetime to get half the distance.
>Prove it was figurative
No one ever uses the force to do anything as major as blow up planets so there is no reason to think he was being literal from the perspective of immediate ability to do things. Wow that was hard. I'll admit I'm wrong after rey blows up a planet by glaring at it next movie though.
>Telekinesis she saw Kylo Ren perform.
That doesn't say anything about whether it has to be learned but ok. We all know if she started zapping him with force lightning that you'd also think force lightning was something you didn't have to learn.
>Same with mind control.
That isn't even true. Mind probing is not the same thing as mind control.
I'd say it was a toss up between Sheev, Yoda, and Anakin. Obi-Wan and Mace are up there too but I feel they were successful a lot of times out of luck (like Obi-Wan having the high ground).
It was because it had a believable theme of Kylo toying with an overwhelmed opponent and ending the duel in seconds after the opponent gets in a lucky hit rather than the overwhelmed opponent winning because the plot fairies said so
>My friend, my point is there are those that NEED training and then there are people like the kind I mentioned.
Who also need training and just less of it?
>Those who don't have training but have immense intelligence which lets them do things it takes normal people many years of training to accomplish.
But they did have training before accomplishing anything.
>>According to Capablanca, he learned the rules of the game at the age of four by watching his father play, pointed out an illegal move by his father, and then beat his father twice.
Ok. That isn't doing math.
we can all agree that the best bit about the movie is that they weren't afraid to have some cool new Force tricks, right?
I don't think mind-reading and stopping blaster bolts mid air were in the other movies, but they were cool as shit and I hope it continues
How does your heart beat without you consciously doing it without a will?
How does a tree grow without a will?
How does the wind blow without a will?
How do you breathe in yourself if your lungs don't have a will?
Magic is about controlling the supernatural... But the force is not supernatural. Yes, the force isn't supernatural for people in the star wars universe. They say it's an energy field that binds the galaxy together. It's been scientifically studied, as people can use it and harness it - the people that have are called Jedi.
Oh really? Name a ritual, spell book, magic word, or gesture REQUIRED to use force powers. Yoda moved the X Wing by concentrating. Vader choked the dude on the other ship by thinking about it. The gestures are there for the audience to see dude.
you could say that about magic in its own universe, as wizards and mages study it and turn it into a science
trying to narrowly define magic is retarded, youre literally arguing pointless semantics
Yeah. Besides the mind trick from the previous trilogies, we've never actually seen the force used for something like interrogation or even pulling information from someones mind.
Stopping the blaster shot and holding it while having conversation was just badass.
They just have to be careful not to write something too powerful, because once you include a new power, every scene you write after that has to be consistent.
Think about force speed. There are probably dozens of times it should've been used again, but that would be retarded.
I'm worried about the mind reading. What the villain doesn't know is pretty useful.
Who thinks this alternate ending is shit:
The starkiller is destroyed, but instead kylo ren acquires both map pieces.
They have no superweapon to blow up luke's planet, and he's too powerful to approach conventionally.
Anakin is absolutely not winning the fight at the end if ROTS. He is more aggressive, which makes it look like he is winning. Obi-Wan, in addition to fighting, pays attention to all the shit going around and responds accordingly. Anakin barely scrapes away safely from lava falls and collapsing towers by spazzing out at the last minute. Even without high ground, Obi-Wan would have won that fight because Anakin would have slipped on a rock and split his skull or some dumb shit like that.
This is bad logic. This is called denying the antecedent.
>If the weapon you use is the force, it is more powerful than a machine to blow up a planet
>but nobody with the force blew up a planet
>therefore, the force is not more powerful than a machine to blow up the planet
>If president Obama is a canadian citizen, he is a human being.
>but Obama is not a Canadian citizen
>therefore, he is not a human being
You didn't prove he was bring figurative and you also didn't prove that nobody couldn't use the force to blow up a planet.
We didn't see anyone do it so we can't say for sure. What we do know is, whether or not it can be done, the power to destroy a planet is insignificant compared to a power of the force. As Vader, a force user, says.
Exactly. Knowing math required study. Being good at math depends on how intelligent you are -which has a genetic components. How quickly you absorb it,master it, how good you think, all the stuff that determines how good you'll be at math comes from inside you. Rey had all that stuff maxed, just with the force instead of thinking. I think you're getting it now.
What makes them pointless? The fact that you're wrong about what you said? Lol
They are all mind blowing. Ramanujan couldn't do basic analysis because he never learned - but the most complicated patterns were a joke to him because he was just so intelligent,he could just see things it took other people years to see. John von Neumann, Gauss, Euler are similar.
Aggression is the point as they are both trying to kill each other
Obi Wan employs defense because its his only viable strategy against a superior dueler and Anakin, being as rash as he is, is willing to risk his situation in order to play into his game, like he's always done
Hotheads never prosper
No it isn't you dipshit. We're not logically deducing truths, we're using inductive reasoning. (the philosophical and not the mathematical definition before you spurge out) This is how belief formation in the real world works. If you want an absolute logically deduced truth about whether he was being figurative it can be neither confirmed or denied.
>Exactly. Knowing math required study. Being good at math depends on how intelligent you are -which has a genetic components. How quickly you absorb it,master it, how good you think, all the stuff that determines how good you'll be at math comes from inside you.
Ok that's a lot of irrelevant stuff. I was just pointing out how retarded you are for thinking real geniuses do not require training. They do.
>Rey had all that stuff maxed, just with the force instead of thinking.
Ok. That doesn't actually imply she requires no training because the people you are comparing her to did require training. But maybe ray is the ultimate mary sue force user and also force use doesn't require training. I agree with you that this is a valid explanation for why she can do what she does in the movie.
>resorting to name calling and being bad at logic
Not gonna a read the rest of your post and I'm not gonna reply to it, son. Your argument is piss poor and your reasoning skills are bad.
sheev is such a non-design he looks like anything that's bald, stop posting this
They consistently ripped off mcquarrie for the production design instead of coming up with new ideas, and in the one instance where a character with features was needed, they go with wowitsfuckingnothing
If you're going to be a troll you should at least do it intelligently so people can argue with and insult you instead of running away crying because they noticed you are demanding logical proofs in a context where no belief is formed with logical proofs.
>I wonder if all that obvious set up means anything about Kylo Ren's ability with the force.
Yeah, /tv/'s love/hate relationship with Rey aside, it was pretty clear what the movie was going for. Ren is a trained jedi who isn't actually very strong in the force while Rey has the raw talent. People like bitching about how fast Rey used her powers because the Star Wars movies haven't gone there before. In the first movie, Luke isn't seen as being particularly amazing in the force because Lucas probably hadn't fleshed out the background that much. With Anakin, we HEAR how strong he is... but like with a ton of things in the prequels, we never really see it. Similar to Obiwan and his friendship - we're told, but we don't really see it.
>Ren is a trained jedi who isn't actually very strong in the force while Rey has the raw talent.
I don't even think that's what they were going for. He's supposed to be strong in the force but really conflicted and shit which is holding him back (see him doing cool shit like freezing blaster bolts to establish villian cred). Meanwhile Rey might be strong with the force but I don't think she's supposed to be force jesus 2.0. They just made her seem that way and made him look like a bitch because they're hacks.
I hope you enjoyed it, lol.I enjoy idiots too, but not right now.
How can you claim what you think ought to be based on what is (what we saw)?
It doesn't matter what you think they were going for. What we SAW I'd that Rey had raw talent and that obviously Kylo was a trained Jedi who was shit compared to her. I agree with the other anon.
I was really more trying to point out how Kylo sucks when he's fearful, sad, or met with an honest challenge but good with the force when he's in control of situations and at peace. It's a way of showing he'd be stronger embracing the light. I think it's an interesting take on the dark side, Kylo is trying to use it without actually giving into it so he's not getting the benefits of his emotions.
Nothing about Ren's force strength seemed strong, though. IIRC thinking a scene or two where it looked pretty weak. That's in contrast to Rey. The writers poured over the originals and prequels when writing the sequels. I think they knew exactly what they were doing by making Rey use force persuasion so easily, beat Ren, etc. People hate on it because it makes Rey look TOO powerful... but we've no indication that the force can't work this way. I think Disney knows what it's doing here; it could prove me wrong in the next movie if they really fuck up, but so far I'm willing to believe Rey can be that powerful without it automatically meaning the writers are shit.
Interesting never thought about that.
He went toe to toe with Obi Wan eventually but got his shit slapped by Dooku the first time. What else did he do that showed his potential power level?
Not necessarily powerful, either. Just better at using it than Ren. She didn't really do anything that struck me as being powerful. Had she pulled a star destroyer out of the sky, sure. But all she did was the basic simple shit.
>How can you claim what you think ought to be based on what is (what we saw)?
I don't know what you're trying to say but I didn't say I thought anything ought to be, just that I don't think that was their intention. Also just to verify were you the person I previously responded to? I thought he was someone else responding to the retarded troll and not the retarded troll himself but maybe I got confused.
Killed a bunch of sand people.
Killed a bunch of children.
His supposed powers are only ever alluded to and talked about.
I don't really think they say he's particularly powerful. He never does anything impressive with the force. He's a great pilot though.
Not sure what you're talking about. I don't know who you are but I thought you were the retarded troll arguing with the guy who called you out on not being able to reason or think critically.
Well the Tartakovski Clone Wars series showcased some of his power and since it directly ties into the 3rd movie that makes it as cannon as anything else. They didn't have him use the force a heck of a lot in the PT but if you are assuming precognition is part of every Jedi duelists repertoire then you could say he was a bad mother fucker.
>Nothing about Ren's force strength seemed strong, though.
He did presumably hard shit we've never seen before like freeze a blaster shot in midair and read minds. I think they wanted to build him up as a cool villain from a power standpoint and just have his problem be with motivation. In the novelization they apparently make more of an effort to emphasize how much the injury was hurting his ability to fight and even said killing his father depowered him somehow. So it's not like Rey is actually supposed to be shown to already be on his level because she's jedi jesus. Those aspects just weren't played up as much in the movie.
In ANH Obi Wan says precognition and retrospection are both basic things you do with the force. Then Luke predicts the locations of the lasers when he is training. I'd say based on that, every force user has precog and retrospec as a power.
So you weren't the guy I was responding to and just the retarded troll who doesn't understand how belief formation works and who can't form a coherent chain of reasoning butting into the conversation. Good to know.
Lmao relax. I assume you're you American? Why are you stalking this thread at 1230-30 am picking flights with people? You aren't even contributing at this point. Go to bed. Don't you have high school or college (if you're smart enough to get in) or a job to go to in a couple hours or something?
Qui-Gon was a pretty good Jedi, Darth Maul was better. Obi-Wan overcame Maul, he's excellent.
Obi-Wan > Darth Maul > Qui-Gon
Attack of the Clones
Dooku defeats both Obi-Wan and Anakin in a two on one fight. He's also powerful enough to match powers with Yoda in the force and fight him melee. Truly a masterful Sith. However, he's unable to kill Yoda, and needs to create a distraction to escape from him, thus Yoda is slightly better. It's unclear where Anakin stands at this point.
Yoda > Dooku > Obi-Wan > Darth Maul > Qui-Gon
Revenge of the Sith
Dooku manages to beat Obi-Wan, but as we will later see, Obi-Wan would improve even further throughout the movie, surpassing Dooku by the end of it. Anakin has far improved at this point, he out-maneuvers and kills Dooku, a very impressive feat. Obi-Wan defeats Grievous, who was an apprentice to Dooku. Sheev turns out to be strong and easily kills nearly everyone of the Jedi, he also clearly outsmarts and defeats Yoda (who had claimed Sheev was way too powerful for Obi-Wan, also implying Yoda's superiority over Obi-Wan), to the point that Yoda gives up hope of stopping him, which clearly means he's superior. Mace Windu, however, managed to beat Sheev, and the only reason why he didn't kill him was cause of Anakin betraying him. Anakin and Obi-Wan have a fight and Obi-Wan very clearly outsmarts him, thus being superior.
The OT doesn't change much. Vader may or may not be stronger at that point. Sheev implies it, but he still has a hard time with Obi-Wan, who only lets himself get killed on purpose. Luke is stronger than Vader but gets his ass kicked by Sheev. Sheev only dies because Vader betrays him.
100% OBJECTIVE POWERLEVELS
Mace Windu > Palpatine > Yoda > Obi-Wan > Anakin > Dooku > Darth Maul > Qui-Gon
Palpatine > Luke > Anakin
Obi-Wan > Darth Grievous
Palpatine > Generic Jedi's
You still have variance on how accurate precognition is. The reason both Anakin and Luke were great pilots without any Jedi training was because their precognition was already very good. Some Jedi have poor precognition, like that random dude that just died to Jango's guns. Based on that I can assume Anakin had better precognition than most, so it is a sort of subtle showing of his power.
>If it doesn't, who cares about power levels if they can fluctuate depending on circumstances?
This is like saying who cares about ranking boxers is someone can just sucker punch mike Tyson in the back of the head and win.
Just because circumstances can mean the underdog can win, doesn't make him any less of an underdog,
When people talk about "power level", they are directly comparing their ability to use the force to other force users without other variables, "circumstances" has nothing to do with it.
You are a fucking retard if you can't grasp this basic concept.
Because even in a setting were power level actually exists (DBZ), they don't always define who will win any any circumstance, just in circumstances where neither has a clear advantage. Stories naturally aren't that simple.
If you want it broken down for you real simple, if sheev and yoda were put in a ring and forced to fight, who would you put your money on to win? That's the one that's more powerful.
All I know is that Kylo Ren is easily the most incompetent Sith in history.
>fails to capture not-R2D2 twice
>throws hissy fits in response, smashing up electronic equipment with his lightsaber like a little kid
>figures he doesn't need the droid since he can get the information out of Rey's head
>gets reverse mind-fucked instead and lets his captive escape
>nearly loses a lightsaber duel to a random low-level ex-stormtrooper
>loses a duel to a girl who has never picked up a lightsaber in her life
At no point in TFA was Kyo Ken made to look powerful, intimidating, or even competent.
How can you rank Luke above obi wan?
At the end of RotJ I don't really see how you can rank him above (or below) obi wan, it's like he's finally figured out what obi wan has been saying, not really figured out anything new
I don't even remember that, fair enough.
I still say we just don't know enough about obi wan (OT only), we never really see him try. To me he still seems more wise than RotJ Luke, like he doesn't need to use barbaric shit like choking people to get stuff done.
>he doesn't need to use barbaric shit like choking people to get stuff done.
I'm okay with that. That was my original argument against Sheev being more powerful than Yoda. It shouldn't really be amount the display of power. I just think as far force mastery goes, I'd say Luke has a broader scope. Obi-Wan is more forced on the light.
That's a pretty glib interpretation because almost every power could be used to do that. I never bought the idea that there were light or dark side powers. Neither do the movies. There are just force abilities. People choose tobuse whichever abilities suit whatever purpose.
I'm not a big fan of the binary powers reserved for one side or the other either, but in the movies, bad guys are almost exclusively offensive while good guys misdirect, buff, and defend.
That doesn't really mean that there are powers reserved to one side. Luke chokes people, Darth Maul uses force pushing, light side and dark side Jedi use mind tricks, telekinesis... The separation is from KOTOR, not the movies.
Where in the movies is there a list of light side and dark side powers given? The movies talk about the differences between the two sides in the sense that people tap into the force differently based on what side they choose. But nothing about specific powers being inherent to one side. In fact, the movies never talk about specific force abilities like they are specific skills in KOTOR - they only talk about using the force to X or using the force to Y.
Dude, the games actually tried to lose the binary bullshit, but Lucas hated it. Obviously there's some crossover with the basics, but no lightside force user uses shit like lightning in the movies. Most don't force choke. Basically if you're using the force to hurt someone, that's bad. If you're using it for "the greater good™" it's lightside.
There isn't a powerpoint slide in any of the movies. Just watch what the characters do. The characters display a set range of powers. The only real "lightside-offensive" exception is when Luke force chokes the Gamorrean guards, and that's a pivotal point for him as a force user.
Not every dark side user uses lightnjng. In the prequels, Vader doesn't use lightning.
I agree with what you're saying, but what you've said is what I've said. There is no binary separation mentioned - what determines whether the use of a power is good or bad determines its use.
But this is different from what you said earlier about there being specific light or dark side powers. Like going on what you and I agree on now, force lightning could be a good power if it is used for the greater good, like saving a family from a bunch of storm troopers.
Also how do you know Lucas hated the supposed step away from binary powers the games made? Which games made the steps away from it? As I recall, KOTOR started it and it was heavily polarized.
So, there's no list.
There's never any mention in the movie about Jedi being restricted to a specific set of powers.
Dark side Jedi would NEVER be restricted to a set of powers based entirely on the fact that they want to totally master the force.
The characters never mention force powers by name like in a video game.
In short, I'm not convinced. There's just the force and how you use it. I doubt specific powers have anything to do with the morality of the user. I think how a power is used has more to do with the morality of the user.
Not every dark side user uses lightning, but only dark side users use lightning. I think we agree that the force shouldn't be limited to light side box and dark side box regarding powers. I think that diminishes the mystical nature of it almost more than midochlorians. But in the movies — based on how the established characters use those powers — those really tend to support the opposite opinion.
When I watch superman, there isn't a cue card in the middle of the movie denoting what his powers are, but I know what he can do based on what he does in the movies. These are observational skills, and it's how the movie "lists" things for you.
Yes but what are you getting at with that? Only Luke drew his lightsaber towards him with the force - does that mean THAT is a lightsight power? Does that mean nobody else can do it?
Also just because only dark side users HAVE used lightnjng does not mean that ONLY dark side users use lightning.
That's not really the point. Based on what Superman and Zod do, can you tell me which of the powers are "good guy" powers and which are "bad guy" powers? You can't do it with Jedi vs Sith, and you can't do it with Superman vs Zod becuase its nonsense. The issue wasn't whether you're able to see people use powers. The issue was deteminging whether or not Jedi and Sith are restricted to specific power sets based on which religion they chose - and they aren't.
>Also just because only dark side users HAVE used lightnjng does not mean that ONLY dark side users use lightning.
It literally does mean that if we're referring only the movies, which we are.
You cant conclude that ONLY dark side users can use lightning just because you've only seen dark side users use it.
What kind of reasoning is that? That's like saying only light side users can use the force to draw his lightsaber from across the room because Luke is the only person who does that in the movies.
>Also just because only dark side users HAVE used lightnjng does not mean that ONLY dark side users use lightning.
I think it does. It is implied in the movies that your points in dark side and light side are quantifiable. A deeper study into either side (more notably the dark side) unlocks greater powers.
A reason why we never see Maul or vader use it is probably because they never felt they needed to dedicate the time to learning the ability because they were proficient enough in other areas (ie light saber dueling).
Well the reasoning is literally all of the concrete evidence supports binary powers. I mean, like I said, I prefer to believe in a more flexible set of abilities, but the movies do not support that.
No, I just choose to ignore it because it was a shit game and unfinished. And neither game is canon anyway.
LOL what new kind of autism is this?
Zod shot a white beam from his fingers to move things. Superman had that cellophane S.
You're confusing necessary with sufficient conditions.
He's not struggling and he also hasn't turned yet. Are you seriously suggesting that once he fully turned to the light, he'd be unable to use the force to tighten someones neck to choke them? The force would just magically know it was an evil power being used for a nefarious purpose and not do it. That's what you're suggesting.
Maybe we watched different movies. Luke is pretty clearly in rough state after V, and at the beginning of VI, nigger's dealing with all kinds of influence from his father, his emotions, and his anger. Regardless, I'm saying that if we was fully light, he wouldn't force choke.
Great. So what I said earlier about force users being able to use whatever power they wanted? We finally all agree on that. What you are saying is that Jedi might choose not to use certain powers, and then obviously Sith would use whatever they wanted.
In most circumstances, this is probably true. I could still see Luke or light side jedi using force lightning, if he learned it, to disable a bunch of storm troopers if he and his friends were surrounded or power a generator for a starving family for example.
I also disagree when you say using dark side powers more means you fall towards it. Maybe in KOTOR, sure.
>I also disagree when you say using dark side powers more means you fall towards it. Maybe in KOTOR, sure
Using force powers requires you to use your emotions, especially hatred and anger for dark side powers. Using any of these emotions pulls you towards the dark side.
Using force powers offensively is the dark side. I'm saying the movies illustrate that by giving dark side users powers like lightning and force choke to show the force harming people, while the light side users exclusively use more subtlety in order to misdirect, inspire, and defend. So is it possible for a lightside jedi to learn lightning in order to defend? Maybe, but the movies have never done that for obvious reasons.
Raw strength goes to Vader, he led non-force sensitives on a rampage through the main jedi temple of the galaxy on coruscant. A battle of attrition against what was surely hundreds of semi-trained to Knight-worthy force-sensitives.
Finesse goes to Kenobi. His skill with a saber was on par with or exceeds Windu, who we never really see do much of anything. He's shown several times throughout the movie to be an excellent warrior. He fights Grievous one on one and wins. He teams up with Anakin, the jesus of the setting, to fight the second most powerful Sith in the entire galaxy, Dooku. Finally, he defeats Vader in a 1v1 battle over a fucking volcano.
For Force power its Yoda, he is powerful enough in the force to sense an extreme darkness approaching. Can sense the death of the younglings even though no one else can (if I remember right). Several times hes shown powerful use of the force, the force battle with Dooku in the clown wars, lifting the X-Wing in the OT, fighting by using the force to strengthen himself and propel himself around.
All three are also Force Ghosts.
Honourary Mention goes to Sheev. Not so much of a powerful force user though he pulls off a mind-trick against a group of alert and vengeful jedi and the whole unlimited power shtick of his lightning. A machiavellian powerhouse of amoral madness, he corrupted the Old Republic in to a Sith Empire and utterly annihilated the Jedi Order, a feat that no Sith in existence has managed to do so completely.
Vader is unable to create force lightning, because he doesn't have hands.
Maul only uses the force at all like, once. His hands were too busy with the memesaber. I'll wager he could generate lightning if he wanted.