Was Luke a Mary Sue in episode IV?

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>Guaranteed 172 replies and 38 images omitted.

>>64530192
no.

its been a year since empire (or at least several months, long enough for lando to get hired by jabba and infultrate). he applied what yoda taught him and learned using that as a basis. the force grew stronger with him as he matured into a more grown up person. ROTJ is the culmination of those successes and failures leading him to be a better hero and a better jedi. he realizes the bigger risks at stake and is even willing to die to save his father and the galaxy

>>64530276
He also still gets rekt by Sheev

>>64530192
Nope. He has weaknesses and overcomes them during the film.

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No. Luke actually worked really hard and even then he barely accomplished shit.

The only thing Luke succeeded in doing in Episode IV was learning to believe in himself.

>>64530276
Things that Rey defenders will never understand

I'll see you when batman vs superman gets released, when the strong independentwoman defense force reawakens

>>64530315
Kind of brought that on himself when he tossed his lightsaber away. Though I doubt he knew that the Sheev didn't need a weapon to wreck him.

>>64530276
A new hope matey

Like the first one
I got in a disagreement with a buddy of mine about Rey as a character I felt that she was rather boring but he kept insisting that Luke was just as boring and perfect as she was in his first movie

>>64530402
One of the first things Luke does is get his ass kicked by sand people.
Rey can't even be interrogated without turning the tables on her adversary.

>>64530366
Cute fuckin fan art

I'd have forgiven all transgressions if she looked like this

>>64530402
sorry lad, you confused me with the thread picture

i love episode 6 luke so much maybe homo

>>64530192
No. Throughout all three movies he needed someone else to bail his ass out of every situation he got in. Even at the very end of RotJ he was BEGGING Vader/Anakin to save him.

>>64530488
>sat there stoically the entirety of TFA
>so fucking happy when Luke showed up and had a smile on my face that just wouldn't go away

I only got into the EU because I wanted to read more of Luke's adventures.

It remains to be seen if there's any training behind Rey's competence.

Meanwhile Anakin Skywalker was was a pro podracer at 8 years old or whateverthefuck.

If Rey did receive training at some point then that puts her somewhere below High Tier in terms of Chosen One bullshit.

>>64530557
>pro podracer
>never finished a single race

Rey is a Mary Sue just like Kirk was in JJ's Star Trek. TFA isn't Star Wars and shouldn't be compared to it.

>>64530594
>>64530557
Anakin also raced some before that too in ep.1.

>>64530594
>clearly better than than pros who had likely been racing for decades

>Luke electrified by force lightning.webm

He literally had to be saved by Vader

Rey will never be allowed to be saved by anyone's she'll always have to save herself

>>64530276
I believes its actually 3 years between Empire and RoTJ

>>64530366
yeah true, taking down the death star was no biggie

>Self proclaimed Star Wars fans
>Triggered by Mary Sues and Gary Stus

>>64530276
>>64530488
>>64530693

word of advice anon, if you want people to talk about luke from episode 4, dont post picture of luke from episode 6 in the heading

>>64530749
tfw no Dash Rendar

>caring about labelling something with a stupid buzzword

rey's story was more boring comparitively, why not just leave it at that

>>64530192
Episode IV, as in the new hope, nope.

Only thing he did that was special was believe in himself.

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>everyone hates him
>manlet
>gets rekt'd by sand people
>can barely use the Force
>needs Smiley force ghosting to blowup deathstar
total mary sue

>>64530192
Uh, no? We actually see Luke develop as a character to get to a level where he can actually be useful outside of a cockpit. Anyone who claims Luke was a Mary Sue either never watched ANH or hasn't watched it recently. He gets his shit kicked around the entire movie and gets lucky once.

And he still has to draw on the dark side to defeat his father. And we see the final evolution of his character when he stands over his disarmed father and drops his weapon, rejecting hatred and embracing love.

He defeated the Emperor not by being a great warrior, but by being a powerful soul.

Rey, on the other hand, defeats Ren mentally and physically in the same movie. The villain has been emasculated and either needs to be replaced or developed into a more intimidating figure to make up for what he's become at this point, which is a foil on the level of TR-8R.

>>64530192
>please coach me on my arguments against SJWs /tv/

>My friend doesn't like you.
>I'm sorry.

Luke is such a sadsack loser.

>>64530557
>It remains to be seen if there's any training behind Rey's competence.
Depends on how much training but she'll be below Kyle Fucking Katarn at least.

"Mary Sue" is shorthand for "over-powered shit new character inserted into per-existing corpus"

Even if Luke were an over-powered shit character (he isn't) he still wouldn't be a Mary Sue as he's part of the original movies

>>64530839
>one of the best pilots in the galaxy without any formal training
>take down the death star in one of his first pilot missions

>>64531072
>>one of the best pilots in the galaxy without any formal training
he had his wingmen and squad cover him alot. and he was a trained pilot in a T-16 already.. no one ever once insinuates hes one of the best

>would have been killed by sand people without Obi-Wan showing up
>would have been killed when the Empire attacked his home if he was there
>would have been captured/killed at the checkpoint without Obi-Wan using the Jedi mind trick
>would have been seriously hurt/killed without Obi-Wan intervening in the cantina
>would have been ripped off by Han without Obi-Wan being there
>Han hates him at first because he's a naive, annoying farm boy
>Leia hates him at first for the same reason
>constantly whines during training

>>64531118
Come the fuck on. Anyone posts weak counters like that we we laugh in their face. His piloting was bullshit like Anakin in the podracing. Star Wars is full of Space Monk Messiah bullshit and "fans" still supposedly getting triggered by it is retarded.

>>64531343
youre the only one sounding triggered right now, kiddo

>>64531391
>I know you are but what am I

>>64530246
>carrying about who replies, or how many.
Sure smells like redit.

>>64530192
I could go into more details why the answer is "no", but consider this: Luke never once uses a lightsaber on an enemy in A New Hope. He trains with it in a few scenes, he shoots some storm troopers with a blaster, and he's a talented pilot. But he never uses the light saber on anyone, much less defeat a trained dark jedi in a 1 on 1 duel. He doesn't do anything more than practice with it a little because that's all he's ready for.

>>64531614

good job rey has already had training then

>>64531642
>headcanon
Once again Reyfags have to make shit up to defend that abomination of a character

>>64530750
not if you regularly shoot womprats in your T-16 back home.

>>64531699

it's a three part story nigga

not my problem if you're too retarded to pay attention to the obvious signposting

or did you think the constant references to luke's academy, the random flashbacks/forwards and rey inexplicably fucking hightailing it as soon as she saw a lightsaber were just there to pad out the script

Ep IV Luke - a good pilot who's strong with the Force (but doesn't realise that potential until years later) and who can't do much more than that

Ep VII Rey - a good pilot, scavenger, engineer, melee fighter, sharpshooter, force user

Can someone please explain why are we even comparing those two characters?

>>64531792
>not my problem if you're too retarded to pay attention to the obvious signposting
Did you pay attention to the scene where she's shown to having been left on Jakku as a small child?

Did you pay attention to the scene where she was shown counting the days spent on Jakku by marking them on the wall that indicated she has been there for years?

Because those two things point to her spending a vast majority of her life on Jakku more than anything points to her having had any training

>>64530192
Neither Luke nor Rey are Mary Sues.

>>64531831
Because some faggots actually think she's a good character

>>64530192
No he was a Gary Stu.

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>>64532253

>>64531831
Feminists trying to prove Teh Rey isn't a shit character by saying Luke is just as bad.

It's both wrong and absolutely disgusting.

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>>64531461
>Mentioning in a subtle way about the multiplying of dankepic maymays that are offspring danker maymays posted multiple times a day and overdone to the point of daily 80% board proliferation makes it reddit.

>>64532357
It honestly feels like those faggots did not even watch ANH. Luke barely does anything but whine until the Death Star assault and even then he has to be bailed out by Han at the last moment. He's carried by Obi Wan and Han the entire movie and it's a big reason why Han became the more iconic character at first

>>64532472
>It honestly feels like those faggots did not even watch ANH

They clearly didn't, considering everything you mentioned. Interestingly, these same people were gloating about how much more tough and badass Rey was compared to Luke until everyone started calling her a Mary Sue. Now they're backtracking like a motherfucker and claiming Luke was super perfect in ANH.

>>64532472
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X66jntR0MVE
>that guy
>capable of anything

That's why Return of the Jedi is so satisfying. He came such a long way. Rey's arc will forever be shit because of Force Awakens.

>>64530976
agreed

>>64530750
Han sure agreed

>come on kid, now let's blow this thing and go home"

And he simply does.

>>64530192
No. He was pretty naive and unsuited for what he had to become.

Yoda explicitly said Luke was not Jedi material.

>>64534134
yeah so mary sue could le prove him wrong xd

>>64533808
>Rey's arc will forever be shit because of Force Awakens.

This is why she has to turn dark in VIII, she's too damn boring

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>>64530614

>>64534221

This. It's the ONLY way it can go so it becomes interesting. She's prodigal with the force, so she'll yearn for more power.

>>64530192
>needs help from obi-wan when dealing with rando aliens at a bar
>needs help from obi-wan when negotiating with han solo
>needs help from han/leia when dealing with storm troopers on the death star
>gets saved by obi-wan when he sacrificed himself
>can't use a light saber for shit
>can't use the force for shit except to make a shot that you could have made with any targeting computer
>nobody likes luke except for R2D2/C3PO/obi-wan
>is so bad at shooting tie fighters that he gets cocky because he manages to hit one


And that's just the first movie. Let's not mention the fact that he gets blown the fuck out in the climax of episodes 5 and 6 and the only reason why the resistance wins is because of shit everybody else does including his daddy which deals with the emperor.

Not to mention he spends the majority of episode 5 specifically training in the force and STILL isn't that great at it.

>>64530192
Not really. Vader successfully goaded him and when he stood high and mighty against the Emperor he soon found himself writhing around on the floor in agony, begging his daddy to save him.

I haven't seen EP7. Does Rey ever display an genuine vulnerability?

>>64534724
>Does Rey ever display an genuine vulnerability?
Once but she gets out of it with no consequence because she's just that awesome

>>64534900
Not him but I haven't watched it either. Does she at least need help to overcome that weakness?

>>64534991
>Rey gets a small pep talk
>Rey fucks up
>Rey gets into trouble
>Rey gets out of trouble in the most bullshit way imaginable
>Rey does more bullshit things
>Rey gets help escaping at the very end after the bad guy is defeated

>>64535191
>Oh Reysama please join my crew.

>>64535191
lukeinstarwars.jpg

>>64535239
The only time Luke gets out of trouble in a bullshit way is when he jumps into the abyss after the I am your father reveal and is inexplicably sucked into one of those tunnels.

Come to think about it, Luke wasn't as important in the OT as one can think. He blows up the Death Star after being a whiny tag along faggot for the entire ANH. In ESB, he goes back to save his friends but he gets his shit pushed in and Leia and Han escape without any help from him. In RotJ, he saves the day in Jabba's Palace and later on his role becomes irrelevant in the grand scheme of things since the rebels blow up the Death Star and Sheev/Vader would have died in that explosion even if Luke did not exist so the only thing he achieves there is completing Anakin's redemption arch.

So, in the entire trilogy, he saves the day when blowing up the Death Star (with major help from Han) and at Jabba's Palace. Other than that, the Rebels would have won the war without him.

>>64530192
nah luke was the culmination of the last two movies. hes about obi wan status. he's obviously troubled and is reaching into the dark side too, which is fucking great when you see him choke pigs like his dad. you can sense hes not doing too well. He's the culmination of the heros journey and the best thing is is that he still loses to sheev. theres always a bigger fish

>>64535490
>In ESB, he goes back to save his friends but he gets his shit pushed in and Leia and Han escape without any help from him.
Hell not only does he not help them before the end Leia has to save him.

No, Han was.

Han was Lucas somewhat shameless self insert. He hated Hollywood and wanted to go "solo"

>no mystical force that controls my destiny.
>literally coming out of nowhere to save the day in the original movie
>chewie is literally modeled after GL's dog in the 70s sitting in the passenger seat of his old car.

Han was the biggest Mary Sue of all 7 movies.

>>64536546
Han gets BTFO by Darth Vader and captured.

>>64536546
see
>>64536935

While I could see that there's an argument to be made that he's a self insert you really can't say he's a mary sue.

Nobody particularly likes Han except for chewie and Lando. Han is a great pilot but it makes sense considering he's had a lot of experience being a pilot. He's an ok fighter but nothing amazing. He doesn't particularly do anything that well except for piloting his ship.

>>64530192
luke was nothing like a gary stu

>>64531343
It's the force, i ain't gotta explain shit

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Dude there was three fucking years between ANH and ESB and at the beginning of ESB luke could barely move his lightsaber with the force

Rey is mind tricking dudes about an hour after learning that the force is even a real thing

>>64536935
That was in ESB.

Star Wars Han was pure George

>>64537295
how the fuck did she think the mind trick thing was even a thing? How did she think it would work?

>>64537208
The guy he's responding to isn't wrong though. Luke isn't supposed to be an amazing pilot. He also doesn't do anything particularly amazing. The death star wasn't hard to destroy because it's impossible to make that shot. (Luke specifically says that the shot isn't that insane during the rebel meeting before the assault on the death star. The death star is hard to destroy because getting to that point you need to fly through a gauntlet of shit that can destroy you and the ONLY reason why he also doesn't fail is because Han comes in at the last moment and saves his ass.

Now if you want to make the argument that it makes no sense for Luke to be flying an X-wing at all during that battle you'd have a good point considering the rebels almost definitely has more pilots than they do spacecraft and they'd want to send their best and most seasoned pilots that they have. Then you'd have a pretty good point.

>>64537295
Is it possible that we just haven't been told about her past history?
It was probably done on purpose to keep people talking until the next movie.
Luke knows who she is, and I suspect others do as well.

>>64537295
>>64537466
literally the only explanation I can think of is she was mind-wiped and put on Jakku for a reason.

>>64537562
>>64537651

Whoever she is/was she was left on Jakku when she was fucking four. I don't care if she's Luke's daughter and he "trained" her while she was in fucking diapers, that's bullshit.

Unless that flashback isn't real, in which case this is all a pretty fucking convoluted explanation for some lazy ass writing

>we mind wiped you to forget your past and then mind wiped you into thinking we left you here at 4 years old!

>>64531792
>randomly hightailing

It mind raped her lol

>>64537532
well in the cut scene from ANH biggs basically begs Luke to join the rebellion because they need pilots, and Luke spent years flying a T-16 which is the ship the Rebellion uses to train X-Wing pilots (both made by Incom)

Biggs talking to luke on tatoinne:

https://youtu.be/PwyjSD3195o

Biggs and Luke at the rebel base:

https://youtu.be/f00IkrWvur4?t=8m

>>64537864
I guess it makes sense then. That said Lucas was always a fucking hack and had no idea how war logistics work.

also

>telling your friend that wants to join the empire that you joined the rebels

What a retard.

You reyfags are fucking pathetic, even Jesus-figures like Neo or Gandolf have arcs, they have struggles, rey has FUCKING NOTHING

>b-but the next two movies!!
Gonna retcon a character arc into TFA? Thought not.

>>64537651
I doubt someone taught her mind control when she was just a child.

>>64538332
>>64537715
>this is all a pretty fucking convoluted explanation for some lazy ass writing

Really, what do you expect from writers nowadays?

>>64538485
People using already established tools to solve problems instead of just pulling story powers out of their asses, mostly.

>>64530192
>gets ass kicked by training droid
>doesn't already know how to do everything force related
>doesn't even fight with lightsaber until V after training with Yoda
>gets ass kicked in V

No, he was a believable hero.

>>64538678
>just pulling story powers out of their asses

8 words that perfectly summarize TFA

this is what modern audiences want. "woah so badass" moments with 0 build up or story/plot justification, because that shit is gay dude wheres the light-saber fights and force powers

>>64530192
Someone just discovered /b/. Hur doi mary sue, I'm so going to be in the in crowd now.

>>64537651
>mind wiped

Worst plot device.

>>64530192
Nah, Luke was Shinji Ikari levels of whiny in IV. He grew up and it's fun to see him grow as the series progresses. Rey was kinda bland. I mean she had her moments but I never felt like I could relate to her as a viewer because she was just kinda there. No context just kinda there. I was hoping for more personality from her.

>>64539220
>I mean she had her moments but I never felt like I could relate to her as a viewer because she was just kinda there

What even is her personality?

>>64539545
Make stupid face/over emote/scream at inappropriate times

That's her personality.

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>>64539545

>stoic and surly most of the movie
>on board the Falcon
>face suddenly lights up goofily
>YER AN SOLO!!! DURR HURR
>KESSEL RUN IN 12 PARSECS

>>64530464
She did look like that, anon.

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quick! name three character flaws of Rey

alternatively, name three character traits of Rey.

Remember class, "Is good at X" is not a legitimate character trait!

>>64530192
Green lightsaber >>>> Blue Lighsaber

>>64530192
Nope. Only in IV.

>>64531343
Youre such a fucking retard, he was literally useless, got relegated to the end of the line AFTER PORKINS, he didn't even shot anyone in the x wing, he was about to die if it wasn't for han.
Holy shit the disney shills

>>64539798
Stubborn
Inquisitive
Kind

>>64539798
you know i cant do that because she has no fucking character

>>64540264
>BIGGS HELP
>WEDGE HELP
>OBI WAN HELP
>HAN HELP
>DAD HELP

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>>64540327
bravo, the three most generic and widespread character traits in fiction.

Now, give me three flaws

>>64540264
>disney shills

it's just fresh from the boat redditors defending whatever is popular. Also because she's a grill

>>64540407
>LEIA HELP
>LANDO HELP
>YODA HELP
>R2D2 HELP
The list just keeps going.

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>>64539760
Even better.

>>64540264
>>64540407
>>64541481
reyfags utterly BTFO

Every time some word/term becomes popular now, it gets misunderstood and misused. Mary Sue is no exception. People now try to apply it to everything and don't understand what it means.

>>64541642
kylo literally got shot in the chest by a fucking chewbacca crossbow ass fuckin plasma caster or whatever and then got tired fighting an athletic young black boy in a freezing forest

>>64539645

>excited by a life she never thought she would have.

m8 ur the autistic one if you dont understand emotion.

>>64531046
I'm going to put "mindwiped training when i was 5 that I somehow don't remember but can use better than a Dark Jedi" on the same level as "fell into a magical fountain"

>>64531792
It's a three part story and the hero has already defeated the Dragon in the first part. Kylo Ren is now the equivalent of the comic relief reoccurring mini-boss in a video game.

>>64535490
Han didn't escape in ESB...

>>64537864
They should have kept some of this in so that when Biggs got BTFO it would have made more impact

>>64530192
He isn't a Mary Sue in any of the originals. Even in VI he still gets fucked up by the emperor and Vader has to save him.

>>64530192
Nope.

/thread

>>64530192
How to fix Rey:
>She becomes the bad guy, and Kylo Ren Becomes the good guy

Alternatively:
>She dies and Luke saves the day again

>>64542181
Don't get caught up in the term "Mary Sue"

The problem is that she's an inexplicably overpowered character who is good at everything, and better than other characters at the niches that those other characters should be better at. She's supposed to be at the beginning of a heroic coming of age story, but in part 1 of 3 she already has no weakness or flaws that she must overcome, so her character arc is already ruined, unless she turns evil. Considering that TFA is basically ANH - The Remake, maybe Ep VIII will be ROTS - The Remake and turn her into Darth Dochter

Fetal alcohol syndrome fanboys getting BTFO repeatedly left and right trying to argue that Luke is anywhere near as powerful after 3 movies as their hideous waifu is after 30 minutes

>>64530192
>rekt by sandpeople
>has to have ben mind trick stormtroopers to avoid being discovered
>has to have ben save him from bar alien
>has to find help to leave planet
>gets shot by training probe
>has to have Leah figure out a way to rescue herself
>can't save ben from dying
>gets shot in X wing
>has to have wedge save him
>has to have Han save him so he has a clear shot with a backseat force ghost helping him out even though a targeting computer could probably still get the job done but he's an ace shot back home so go for it
nah fuck you next you're going to claim flash gordon is one

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>>64543038
>Kylo Ren is now a punchline
>Brienn of Darth was never not a punchline
>Space Holo-Golum

Why are all the antagonists so fucking lame? Even the space nazis are all 20-something male models instead of military officers.

>>64543329
I think he was talking about the OP

>>64530192
Shitty life in a shitty planet... Yeah, he was living the Mary Sue dream life.

>Was Luke a Mary Sue after two movies of training?
It takes some serious desperation to come up with this. And even then he would have either died or fallen to the dark side in the climax if not for Vader's crisis of conscience.

>>64539220
>Shinji Ikari levels of whiny
Not even close, senpai. From the outset Luke lusts after adventure. He complains to his dad because he feels like there's more to life than a moisture farm. He annoys some of the other characters because of his ignorance, but he's always willing to lend a hand and take risks. Unlike Shinji, he's not defined by his social anxiety and self-degradation.

>>64544055
Luke got in the fucking robot

>>64530693

>only seen the first movie of Sequels
>it was a Han Solo movie
>defending Rey

>>64530557
anakin won the race where tuskan raiders fucked shit up, general corruption fucked shit up and the weird looking thing died because it was too busy trying to fuck anakin up.

heres my problem with Rey, because of the way she is written every other character becomes irrelevant, in the OT luke has Leia and Han to lean on, because he needs it at times, this makes him a character able to grow and become great. Anakin has Obi-Wan to lean on and learn from, this makes it so he is not, despite everyone telling him he's the fucking chosen one, able to win all the damn time. Rey has Han solo a veteran fighter pilot, Chewie a veteran savage and Finn a trained soldier to lean on and get supported by. But she doesn't need anyone, ever. so Finn is made pointless Han becomes funny man reference guy and chewie becomes slapstick bear. every character serves only to further hammer in the fact that Rey is the greatest ever at everything and she dont need no one. Finn the character who should become her most trusted friend and capable ally is immediately bumped down to comic relief. Rey has no growth other than watch this character go from powerful and completely independent to over the top savior of the galaxy doing everything by herself. she is literally just like a my japanese anime main character and the movie and the sequels will suffer for it unless its changed