What exactly makes Empire so timeless and good? This shit is

the plot is character-driven.

Social media influence and a desire to fit in with """""""""nerd"""""" culture

Well-paced, thematically enriched without being excessive and getting in the way of the adventure. It's more melancholic than the original, but retains an underlying sense of hope which gives the movie depth (the final scene in particular is one of my favorites). Combine that with some strong characters and some cool action sequences and there you go.

God-tier pacing.
Extremely varied environments.
Retro-future designs are genius as your mind resolves itself when it sees them: 'that's not what tech looks like, but that is reasonable based on an early 80s idea of what tech would look like. This is acceptable.'

You may not actively notice these things

But your brain did

lando's BBC

>>64523573
Any movie where the main character gets cucked is a 10/10 in my eyes

>>64523684
sarcastic quotation marks should have been around culture

>>64523684
This

it's pretty reddit, desu

>>64523713
Hehe... Meme

i'm getting mildly triggered by the x-wings firing lasers in the poster when there was no such combat in the film

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>>64523690
>>64523707

>>64523728

yeah, my wife's son loves it too

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>>64523654
>>64523690
>>64523707
These things, and also the beautiful cinematography.

I don't udnerstand that poster

Han and Leia sure they had a romance or some thing going on but it didn't feel as huge and center as it feels in that poster. to me. sure it was there, but..

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>>64523573
>What exactly makes Empire so timeless and good?

Good writing.

Shit writing = shit movie, and no amount of SFX, big name movie stars or marketing hype can fix that.

Nobody knows. Empire's plot structure doesn't fit anything else. It manages to split the story in two different ways and stay coherent and fun. The final twist is a stroke of genius. It ends both tragically and happily. Every line is memorable. Every single joke hits it's target. Every FX moment looks great after 35 years. You can't calculate this shit. Films like that happens once in the lifetime.

>>64523654
>character driven
>Plot A "go to this place because a ghost told me to"
>Plot B "go to this place because ships are firing lasers at us"

lol

>>64523753
you must love that Luke has no lines in TFA

The most over rated movie of all time. Pseudo nerds will have you believing that george lucas ruined this movie that was once so great even though they probably didnt even see the original version until after the new ones came out. You can find these geek posers at your local comic cons repeating everything plinkett says wearing there han shot first shirt thinking they sound like they know what there talking about, but take it from me these movies are on par with bollywood scifi shit dont waste your time.
>>64523805
>"""""""""""""""beautiful cinematography""""""""""""""""""
"lol"

>>64523573
Buenos días reddit.

>>64523807
it's 100% a "not in a relationship" to "in a relationship" at the end of the film.

and they kiss. it's a romance.

the reason it doesn't feel excessive is because the movie is paced and balanced really well.

>>64523573
>What exactly makes Empire so timeless and good?
Memes. It's actually far worse than the first Star Wars, but the darker, more melodramatic tone gave people the false impression that it had more depth.

>>64523918
Cute. I'm glad we have people so informed and wise on /tv/. Don't you also think TFA is better than Empire? Boy oh boy what taste.

Nothing, you've just been told it's the best movie your whole life, and you believe it. If you ask someone who proclaims to love that movie why it's so good, the only real answer they can give you is "dude, it's so dark!"

Sit down and watch that movie from start to finish. The beginning with Luke getting lost is pretty drawn out; the shit in the middle with Han hiding in the monster's stomach is not interesting; the initial meeting with Yoda is pretty boring; Cloud City doesn't get interesting until the end.

People just want to like it so bad because it's not cool to like Return of the Jedi, and A New Hope is too mainstream.

>>64523573
George Lucas didn't direct it.

>>64523573
Young Mark Hamill was at his cutest years.

>>64523963
Star Wars is a nearly perfect movie. The fact that TFA copies that film instead of falling into the "darker" Empire pitfall is one of its strengths.

>>64523807
I love that poster because of Han and Leia.

It's very old Hollywood.

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>>64524073
is it that time again?
Lukeposting go

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It's no fun to talk about something everyone likes. Let's talk about:

What exactly makes Jedi so disappointing and flawed?

>>64524093
Empire being "darker" isn't a detriment. It's not necessarily a positive in and of itself either, but it's certainly isn't a detriment. It allows the movie to explore Luke's moral fortitude while, in parallel, fleshing out the antagonists.

>>64524240
Ewoks were annoying, Luke and Leia felt wasted, too much happening at the end.

>>64524240
>What exactly makes Jedi so disappointing and flawed?
Lucas got butt flustered over ESB, and considered it to be a failure, so he stuck his fingers deep into ROTJ and there you have it.

>>64523758
Never reply to me again or I'll fucking kill you.

>>64523918
The first Star Wars is a flawless pastiche but little more. Empire adds heart and character to the franchise, giving it its own identity. Yoda's musings on idealism and Vader's becoming more than a one-dimensional character do add at least some depth, and you can't pretend otherwise. Return to /mu/ pls.

>>64523684
THIS^^^^^^^^


ANH is far superior and you'll find it's no surprise that even filmmakers prefer it

ESB is a fucking social media meme and a chore to watch if you're not a braindead kid.

>>64524240
It's very uneven. The finale, especially the throne room scene, might be the best in the entire series but there is a lot of boring shit on Endor and the whole Jabba's Palace rescue plan is retarded

Cloud City is the reason Star Wars is still a thing.

>>64524324
>even filmmakers prefer it
DePalma hated it.

>>64524323
That's not what pastiche means.

>>64524060
>George Lucas didn't direct it.

Probably the worst /tv/ meme out there, he was the mastermind behind it all and never let Irvin do anything on his own because he was well aware of the mediocre capabilities of that senile puppet.

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>>64524240
Feels like watching a movie on double speed.

>>64523573
Feels like I'm watching a 15 minute trailer to the actual movie and I'm being cucked out of the actual movie


The best one and the good one cummin thru

>>64524371
dePalma got dropped on head when he was in Kubrick's set and was in eternal 'everything must be a symbol' mode and is a looney tune

>>64524240
First act drags.
Second act drags and is bad.

>>64524390
He used it correctly. A very well-executed pastiche is an adequate description of the original.

>>64524409
You're literally retarded if you think ANH or any of the prequels are anywhere near as good as ESB.

Lucas is a shitty director.

>>64524461
>that fucking bodybuilder chest on Luke
lolz

>>64524240
Poorly paced. Ewoks are stupid. Attack on Death Star II felt like an unneeded throwback to ANH, except this time with more ships and action.

Kershner had fucking autism.

>>64524472
You're literally a fucking pleb, kid

>>64523573

that poster is sexist as hell

>>64524555
trips confirm

>>64524323
>Yoda's musings on idealism
You mean the pseudo-Buddhist conception of the force that ruins its mystery and turns it into a craft that requires training?

Star Wars has never done depth in any real way. The characterization of Kylo Ren flirts with it, but even then it's still ultimately a cheesy space opera. What Star Wars does best is understand what it is. The sardonic tone (Han Solo is basically making fun of the movie as its happening) gave it an air of lightness that exuded energy. It felt fun and fresh. Empire feels plodding and self-serious by comparison. And the attempts at humor (particularly with C3PO) felt incredibly forced.

>>64524548
Oh and the dialogue between Luke, Vader and Sheev felt really unnatural.

>>64524240

It feels like a really rushed third act. Sheev comes up with this retarded 'use myself as a bait' plan which gets ruined really fast by a bunch of furry cavemen. That and the second Death Star are both really lazy plot devices.

The ground battle of Endor is shit. It's just shit. Not even because of the ewoks but because it fails to convey the slightest sense of how it's all playing out. We see ewoks getting wrecked, then they bring down one walker and Chewbacca hijacks another. That's it, the rebels won. This is what beats the fucking Emperor.

>>64524016
I disagree. Empire didn't feel any darker to me than Hope. In the first movie Luke's parents are burned to death, Ben cuts off a random thug's arm, Han shoots a guy, etc.

But Empire was good because it took the material seriously. It basically completed Han and Leia's arc. Han goes from a bootlegging scoundrel to a hero for the Rebellion, Leia goes from a military leader to someone who can let herself love someone. It was well written and felt satisfying

Then Jedi didn't know what the fuck to do with these characters so they don't do anything

>>64524555
Take off those nostalgia googles, faggot.

>>64524596
>You mean the pseudo-Buddhist conception of the force
This was evident from the start.
>turns it into a craft that requires training?
So was this. We see Luke getting used to using his Force sense instead of his usual senses during his brief time training with Obi-Wan. His success at the Death Star was an extension of that. The entire concept of becoming a Jedi suggests a need for precision and control.

And no, there's no real depth to Kylo Ren although there possibly could be later. Unfortunately TFA denied us the piece that could lend him some intrigue. As it stands TFA is a dull retread and a poorly-paced mess. It's a very hollow movie, and its egregiously quick pacing prevented me from finding it "fun." Instead I was bored and annoyed for almost the entire movie.

>>64524664
>We see ewoks getting wrecked, then they bring down one walker and Chewbacca hijacks another. That's it, the rebels won. This is what beats the fucking Emperor.
This. If you ignore all the scenes that take place on Endor itself, ROTJ is a great movie. Otherwise its mediocre at best

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Lord of the Rings trilogy > Star Wars original trilogy T B H

>>64524596
>And the attempts at humor (particularly with C3PO) felt incredibly forced.

oh god every line of his is grating, that and chewbacca bellowing and leia bitching for no reason, totally obnoxious.

>>64524799
I think everyone agrees to that unless they really prefer sci-fi to fantasy, or plain don't like fantasy at all

>>64524326
I agree, except for the Jabba the Hutt scene. That felt for the most part very cool and effective

>>64523573
My biggest problem with the whole

>ESB is the best!

meme is the fact that it's came up literally fucking out of nowhere during TPM pre-hype. Prior to that there was virtually no discussion of it being the best or ROTJ being terrible. There were some minor jokes about Ewoks being for the kids and that's about it. I never take anyone seriously when they tell me Empire was their favorite of the OT at this point because it's completely inauthentic. If you try to ask most people why it is their favorite they can't formulate an argument worth shit.

>>64524799
I agree but they can't really be compared. It's basically saying books > movies.

>>64524868
>I never take anyone seriously when they tell me Empire was their favorite of the OT at this point because it's completely inauthentic.
Yeah, okay.

>>64523573

The actors were more familiar with their characters, in my opinion, and that, coupled with a good story and good writing (dialog), resulted in a stronger film than Star Wars.

In particular, even James Earl Jones seemed to have found his stride voicing Darth Vader. Notice that Vader elongates the vowels of his words in ESB versus ANH, further accentuating the deep bass of his voice. For whatever reason, this and the larger role Vader has makes Vader seem more menacing.

Harrison Ford's lines also further fleshed out the Han Solo character beyond the "thief with a heart of gold" trope. Solo's arguments with Leia is very natural of a couple who have fallen for each other but are too proud to admit it.

"Don't get so excited!"
"Captain, being held by you is hardly enough to get me excited."
"Sorry, sweetheart. I haven't got time for anything else. (smug grin)"

"I love you."
"I know."

I think ESB is easily the most quotable of all the Star Wars movies. The only quote that can top anything from ESB is probably, "I don't like sand," and that's only because the "sand" speech is so incredibly bad.

>>64524799
I have a problem comparing them becausr LotR had well defined source material to go one. When star wars was being made each movie was self contained, and built upon the previous movies and just wound up being a trilogy.

>>64524720
TESB is a fucking trash pop-cultural meme toy commercial, you've been indoctrinated. I rewatched it last year, it's embarrassing aside from Harrison Fords and Carrie Fishers fluid banter

ANH is far better edited and directed. George is the key to Star Wars, only aspie video game players disagree.

>>64524980
>only aspie video game players disagree.
Why would they disagree now that Vulgar Auteur Retards have defined his movies as one of the first Video Game Aesthetics Based Brave Innovative Lucas all over the fucking web

>>64523833
Yes, the relatively simple underlying motivations is why it's considered character driven. All of the fun comes from seeing how the characters interact and progress through the story. How dense are you?

>>64524909
Is this post meant to be satire?

>>64524799
Storywise, yes, consider how much material The Lord of the Rings has with all of Tolkien's books and notes. However, from a film-making perspective, I think the original Star Wars film have a far, far greater cultural impact than LOTR. I can't think of any image or sound from LOTR that really sticks in my mind.

Star Wars? Light sabers, the sound of the light sabers, Darth Vader's booming voice and his mechanical breathing, the Millennium Falcon, the creepy voice of the Emperor.

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>>64524980
>it's embarrassing aside from Harrison Fords and Carrie Fishers fluid banter

>Han Solo: That's a good story. I think you just can't bear to let a gorgeous guy like me out of your sight.
>Princess Leia: I don't know where you get your delusions, laser brain.

top dialogue

>>64525022
No. I think the idea that everyone that claims Empire is their favorite are "inauthentic" laughable and asinine. It's a sloppy argument.

>>64525037
SCRUFFY LOOKING NERF HERDER

>>64524868
ESB being seen as the best of the original Star Wars movies has been said for many, many years now; well before there was ever a world wide web.

>>64524758
There were other problems. The Jabba scene didn't make a whole lot of sense, and it was disjointed from the rest of the movie. Luke and Leia was a big stretch. Han and Leia don't have enough to do. Despite being ambushed the Rebellion still destroy the empire. A second Death Star felt lazy. And even if Luke HAD joined the dark side it would have been inconsequential because the Rebellion blow it up anyway.

Still, most of the Jabba sequence was entertaining, the final confrontation was great, and the space battle sequences were great.

>>64524596
Here's my philosophy, tripfags are little faggots who nobody likes and they are so fucking starved for attention they seek it on 4chan
Kill yourself

>>64525073
I didn't say everyone, I specified people who can provide no argument. I think your reading comprehension is laughable, asinine and sloppy. Btw you are quickly turning out to be one of those people.

>>64525083
This, really. As soon as people started to see TESB for what it was instead of what it wasn't the movie's reception improved tremendously.

>>64525037
I don't know how they did it

>>64524741
Luke was able to use the force to blow up the Death Star with almost no training whatsoever. His ability came from his willingness to believe and trust his feelings. Empire turns the force into almost a form of combat; something that requires decades of training to properly master, as opposed to a spiritual force that's independent of the body.

>And no, there's no real depth to Kylo Ren although there possibly could be later. Unfortunately TFA denied us the piece that could lend him some intrigue. As it stands TFA is a dull retread and a poorly-paced mess. It's a very hollow movie, and its egregiously quick pacing prevented me from finding it "fun." Instead I was bored and annoyed for almost the entire movie.
It also doesn't take itself seriously and understands the Flash Gordon roots of the series. Poe's joke in the beginning is exactly the type of moment that articulates why A New Hope is so good, and why Empire fails to live up to it. And as for its apparent hollowness, all I can say is that your conception of depth is probably flawed. Star Wars is a hollow series; and TFA is no more or less hollow than Empire. In fact, there are moments on Jakku that echo binary sunset, and are narratively much better than the bluntness Luke's vision of Vader on Dagobah.

>>64525073
It's the best though.

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>>64525026
>I can't think of any image or sound from LOTR that really sticks in my mind.
wow what the fuck WHAT?

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Honestly I don't know why people praise ESB so much
ANH is the best by far
try to see the movie while being aware that nothing Star Wars related existed before it: it was the first movie and it created a fuckhuge universe and tons of code etc

ESB is prob better on a few points but it's kinda easier to build up when the original is god tier, perfect pacing and adventure plot

>>64524925
>I think ESB is easily the most quotable of all the Star Wars movies.

I've know every line of dialogue from the emperor, in Jedi, by heart long before the prequels or Sheev became our meme.
>Oh... I'm... afraid the deflector shield will be quite operation when your friends arrive.

Bantha Poodoo, even Jabba is quotable in Jedi.

>>64525115
Many people can't describe why they like what they like. Not everyone has that critical foundation. If someone told you that the original Star Wars was their favorite but couldn't tell you why, would you denounce them as insincere?

Also
>I didn't say everyone
Oh, okay.
>I never take anyone
>anyone
Alright bud.

>>64525128
Many years ago, ESB was one of two sequels that was widely acknowledged as better than the original film. The other sequel was The Godfather Part II.

>>64525083
Trust me anon, I'm older than you and that's not true. It's revisionist. I'm not saying there weren't some people that saw it as the best, but it wasn't the overwhelming majority. Anyone who is old enough to remember knows it started during TPM prehype because of polls. Then bandwagon effect took over. There were lots of people who viewed the whole Vader as Luke's dad as a shocking revelation, but ANH had a much greater impact on audiences while RoTJ was beloved by children.

>>64524980
Are you pushing 50?

>>64525018
>Vulgar Auteur Retards have defined his movies as one of the first Video Game Aesthetics
I haven't heard or seen of this yet, but I can't fucking wait

>>64525185
I was about to say this. Also the eye, if we speak of images.

>>64525198
>taking words out of context and taking yourself seriously

You might possibly be too autistic for even this board.

>>64525219
I'm 21

>>64525159
>His ability came from his willingness to believe and trust his feelings
Yes, and willingness to believe and trusting without getting distracted requires control and experience. That's the whole point. Luke doesn't suddenly become Obi-Wan. That's the entire point of his droid shot exercise with Obi-Wan.
>TFA is no more or less hollow than Empire
Haha. Okay.

>>64525214
Most people were actually disappointed by Empire and it's lack of an ending

>>64525213
>>64525128


While that may be true, it wasn't a staple of star wars fandom in the 70s or 80s. That shit didn't start until its popularity was reaching critical mass before TPM.

>>64525255
Oh then you're just retarded, not senile.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/05/arts/television/jason-wingreen-the-original-boba-fett-dies-at-95.html?_r=0

The guy who voiced Boba Fett died.

>>64525241
Frodo grabbing the ring with his finger filmed from above, Frodo staring towards ring.

Gandalf going fucking nuts in the Bilbo's house, dark and shit.

Saruman's voice for me.

Tree folk's voice for me.

Sauron's eye and the background noise to it.

Everything bout the volcano.

Gollum in general.

The monsters in general desu.

When the support arrives to Helm's Deep
when the support arrives to Minas Trith

etc. could go on
RUN YOU FOOLS

>>64525221
Jesus fuck you haven't read about that shit? They're giving them unironically high ratings around the net while praising them of their daring use of CGI, world building, video game aesthetics.

tis fucking annoying.

>>64525249
There's a difference between context and you being a poor writer.
>I don't take anyone
Is pretty absolute. I apologize for the misunderstanding, though.

>>64523854
Contrarian Wars Episode 64523573: The Fedora Awakens

>>64523805
>Special Edition Force Ghost Obi-Wan
>Special Edition shot of Vader with the changed floor panel
>Special Edition snowspeeders
>Special Edition Star Destroyers
>Special Edition shots of the Falcon approaching Cloud City
>Special Edition lightsabers
>Special Edition shot of Boba Fett entering the Slave I
>Special Edition shot of Clouf City's lowest part
>FUCKING SPECIAL EDITION EVERYWHERE

>>64525214
>Trust me anon, I'm older than you and that's not true. It's revisionist.

I am old enough that I saw the original films when they were originally released.

I will say this much about ESB. After it was over, a lot of people were upset that the question of whether Vader was Luke's father or not was not answered. I think it was Cracked or Mad magazine that had a cartoon about this. After watching the adventures of "Fluke" from the second film, a guy in the audiences screams, "What! I have to wait until the next movie to figure out if he's really his father! What a rip-off!"

So, shortly after ESB came out, it was not immediately hailed as better than Star Wars. However, by the late 1980s or early 1990s, it was widely praised as the best of the three.

>>64525159
>Empire turns the force into almost a form of combat; something that requires decades of training to properly master, as opposed to a spiritual force that's independent of the body.
The movie that has the tiny green Muppet jedi saying:
>Look at me! Judge me by my size, do you?
>As well you should not.
>For my ally is the force. And a POWERFUL ally it is.
>Life breeds it... Makes it grow.
>It's energy... surrounds us.
>It binds us.
>Luminous beings, are we... Not this crude matter.
>You must FEEL the force around you
>Here. Between you, me, the tree, the rock... yes even between the land and the ship.

Being a jedi wasn't about having sweet laser sword fights, it was about following a living will of universal harmony.

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>>64525305
lol ok kid

tesb is such an iconic piece of cinéma amirite?

based kershner..

btw anyone loved sicario??? lol

>>64525385
Most special edition changes were for the better

>>64523854
I agree to an extent.

>>64525285
>Haha. Okay.
This isn't an argument, by the way. Empire isn't a particularly deep film, and TFA has moments of fleeting profundity (particularly in having an ancestor worshiping villain whose initial impression conflicts with his actual ability). I would even argue that Kylo Ren has more going on in this film than Vader has in two films.

>Yes, and willingness to believe and trusting without getting distracted requires control and experience.
Which is quite district from the "he's too old" of Empire.The force was more of a religion in A New Hope, and more of a skill in Empire.

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>>64524240
>What exactly makes Jedi so disappointing and flawed?

Other then the Ewoks, it's a fantastic movie.

>>64525320
I read the books before I ever saw the films. That said, when Gandalf became angry at Bilbo for not ceding the ring, I was disappointed by what I saw in the film. What Gandalf did as described in the book was far more frightening.

>>64525393
>late 1980s or early 1990s

I'd agree that's most likely when it started. That being said, I don't think it reached its peak until TPM release. I was involved with the SW community heavily during the early 90s and the ESB guys were always outnumbered by the ROTJ and ANH guys.

>>64525402
And yet it has Luke doing Rocky training he scene prior.

>>64525481
>I was involved with the SW community

That's probably why. The groups I was involved with were fans of good films in general and were not necessarily hard-core Star Wars crazy. They tended to look at a film more as a professional film critic would and could appreciate things like Citizen Kane. (Most people today without any knowledge of film history would probably find Citizen Kane to be a very boring movie.)

>>64525393
>I am old enough that I saw the original films when they were originally released.
So am I. You're quite correct. It wasn't self contained like the first one was. The movie was more divisive in fandom then. The only thing people mutually agreed upon was the snow walkers were cool.

>>64525351
Well to be completely honest, I'm on the same boat with those auteur-apologists. It's just that I'm surprised it took this long for them to become more vocal about it. Video game aesthetics is an interesting term to describe the prequels, I don't really agree with it despite the CGI. I got the video game vibe much more with TFA, probably due to J.J.s style of shooting.

>>64525616
When I saw ESB the first time, I was too young to really grasp how awesome Solo's "I know" was. It was until later in my life when I rewatched the film that I truly appreciated how that one simple line, in the circumstances the characters were in, could convey so much depth to the Han Solo character.

>>64525614
Citizen Kane is an alright movie. It managed the Rosebud mistery well, it had interesting characters, Charles Foster Kane's story was well developed... but that's it.

>>64525451
It isn't. But people already offered you arguments of what Empire offered thematically and you nuh-uh'd them away because it doesn't sit well with your understanding of the original movie.

Empire isn't a particularly deep film. As I noted here >>64523690 it deliberately balances its pondering with its excitement. There isn't any real profundity in TFA because it denies the audience the time to ruminate on the circumstances and contexts, and denies scenes from conveying any real sense of gravity. I'd argue what Kylo Ren's character highlights with things like legacy and sense-of-belonging is one of the few things in TFA not totally vapid, but its a flaccid theme that feels as gestural as the rest of the movie. The movie is in too big of a hurry to have anything to say.

>Which is quite distinct from the "he's too old" of Empire.
Not really. I don't think you understand what was going on there anyway.
>The force was more of a religion in A New Hope, and more of a skill in Empire.
Maintaing spiritual fortitude is something of a skill. Hence asceticism.

>>64525537
Please leave /tv/.

>>64525689
>I got the video game vibe much more with TFA, probably due to J.J.s style of shooting.
For me it was because all the sound effects souned like 343 Halo.

>>64525721
You have't said what Empire offers thematically at all; you've only made value judgement.

>There isn't any real profundity in TFA because it denies the audience the time to ruminate on the circumstances and contexts,
Pacing is the most ephemeral, subjective aspect of a film. The scenes on Jakku actually do offer bits of visual storytelling that rival binary sunset, particularly the scene where Rey stares at an old woman doing the same thing she's doing and her realization that she's staring at her future self if she doesn't leave Jakku. It's subtle, and it does this through visuals and performance alone - no dialogue. Whether your think the rest of the film is too breathless to allow you "ruminate" (whatever the fuck that means) is sort-of an empty critique. Whether the film has depth or not is an independent question of whether or not the pacing is off. Something can be both profound and fast. Or slow and shallow. And if the pacing ruined your ability to discern the fleeting moments of depth, then you can only blame your own ability to think quickly. You can't blame the film for not slowing down to allow you to catch up with it.

>>64525451
>Which is quite district from the "he's too old" of Empire.The force was more of a religion in A New Hope, and more of a skill in Empire.

Kind of the same difference.There is a concept of "too old" even in certain Buddhist monasteries in China where they certain skills can only be acquired when one starts very, very young.

The skill is withdrawing one's testes into one's body. This allows the monk to be struck in the groin without being incapacitated. A person going into the martial arts program later in life will not have the ability to perform this feat because the passageways into the body narrow.

>>64526125
>(whatever the fuck that means)
Google it.
>sort-of an empty critique
>Whether the film has depth or not is an independent question of whether or not the pacing is off. Something can be both profound and fast. Or slow and shallow.
They can be independent, sure, but in TFA in particular its quick pacing and emphasis on action works to its detriment. The issue isn't being able to discern the fleeting moments of depth. I can discern them just fine, thank you. The issue is that they are so fleeting they hold no impact. They are hollow. Yes, a movie can be profound and fast. TFA is not. It's fast and boring.

>>64523812
Irvin Kershner let the actors improvise
>Han's famous line
>Yoda fighting R2 for flashlight

The good guys win.

>>64523805
God I love that shot of vader on the upper left. So creepy how he's like, sort of peeking around the corner of the barrier of his pod which kinda symbolizes how he's like this terrifying inhuman monster compared to the human he's talking to.

>>64526409
this.

>>64525432
Jedi Rocks, Sarlacc beak, Hayden Christensen force ghost, jabba in ANH, Han digitally dodging a blaster at point blank range, darth vader "no, nooooooo" in ROTJ, goofy shenanigans in mos eisley, color correction fucking up the saber colors, Luke screaming like sheev in ESB

>>64526409
Until you realize that vader was beating off in his pod right when this guy came in. The high pitched squeal you hear as his helmet slides into place is actually the sound of his prostate stimulator being retracted.

>>64526640
That's the shit that sucks. You don't notice the dozens of improvements. George went a little far in some places.

>>64526642
This is now my head canon

>>64523707
Fuck, I love this post so much, thanks anon

>>64526295
>Google it.
I understand what the word means, it's just an odd request. If a film makes me ruminate, then I think it's doing a poor job of grabbing my attention.

>The issue is that they are so fleeting they hold no impact. They are hollow.
How exactly do you judge a film? Do you view it through the moment-to-moment experience you had while watching it? Or do you think about it afterwords, play it again in your brain, and form your opinion based on that? If it's the former, then the ability those moments of profundity have to affect you is probably diminished. I just think that there are plenty of interesting directorial choices that only become clear after you've seen the film and think about it. Even taking its lack of originality into consideration, The Force Awakens is quite good on a pure filmmaking level. The locations are interesting, the acting is good, every aspect of the mise-en-scene (framing/composition, lighting, set design, consumes, etc.) is great. The hate it seems to generate on /tv/ is completely lost on me. Similar to the hate 09 Star Trek generates, even though it's an even better film than The Force Awakens. There's something about JJ that certain people (particularly film critics) seem to enjoy that the internet can't seem to jive with. I don't get it.

>>64526669
Not worth it for a few great cg x-wing shots in ANH and windows in cloud city tbqh

>>64523805
Did Empire start orange and teal?

>>64523805
that old man who directed this one really knew what he was doing, did kirshner have any other good movies?

>>64526843
Yes. George lucas invented the color wheel.

Welcome to the filter tripfag.

>>64526819
I'm talking about cleaning up the film, making the lightsabers look good, etc. They really made it look a lot better than the early cuts. I agree adding shit was bad. Cleaning it up was really good.

>>64526902
The overuse of the orange and teal contrast is a modern film trope you fucking faggot.

>>64526787
No need to over-chum the waters of this thread.

>>64526843
Silent Running

>>64526787
Ruminate may have been a poor choice of words. "Take it in" may be better.

For what it's worth I liked the movie okay while I saw it, though I did find it a bit boring. My issues with it became more clear and pronounced when I had time to sit on it.
>Quite good on a pure filmmaking level
It's well-produced. It's a very competently assembled movie. Most of its composition is at least adequate. But as a story? It's thoughtless. The characters (save for Rey) are likable but uninteresting (Poe in particular is poorly weaved into the movie), and the movie's emphasis on dragging Rey through various dangerous scenarios with little skin off her back robs the movie of tension (and also time to present something interesting thematically and character-wise). Is it an outright awful movie? No. Is it memorable? Does it feel justified in existing? Not really. I've seen it all before (and better-done) in a movie from 1977. But even on its own terms TFA falls flat. It's by-the-numbers. Not much more.

>>64523853
To be fair he is not shown orating in the film's posters.

>>64526964
No fucking way!?! Really!?! You must be the first person to bring that up. Gee whiz you're the smartest, most special snowflake I've ever seen. Your powers of observation are truly legendary.

I can't wait to tell my mom I met a honest to goodness Einstein on the internet today.

>>64526903
they fucked up the color correction though

search esb grindhouse 35mm, it looks much cooler than the new shit

>>64527179
Beautiful, exemplary backtracking right here

>>64527066
The notion that Poe is poorly used (which I've read before) seems to stem from the belief that he's a main character who the film sidetracks for an hour. I think perceiving the character like that is a mistake. He's a tertiary character, and it's only the marketing (which has Oscar Isaac doing interviews with Daisy Ridley and John Boyega) that presents him as being one of the major three.

I will concede that Rey is the weakest aspect of the film. Not because she's particularly powerful, but because she came across as distant and stoic. Pairing her with Finn, who has an abundance of personality, made her stoicism even more pronounced. There's nothing to latch on to with her. It might be sexist of me, but I feel like "friends go on a quest" stories should have both protagonists be the same gender. Having another woman there would make it seem more like a genuine friendship than just a lonely ex-Stormtrooper trying to get laid. Women just act more naturally around other women.

>Does it feel justified in existing?
It's well-made and entertaining, which alone makes it more justified than 90% of films released.

>>64527191
Disney better release this for the 40th anniversary

>>64525704
The cinematography is what makes the movie special. Nearly every shot contains some type of visual metaphor.

>>64523690
>Well-paced
It's slow and boring. That middle drags on.

>thematically enriched without being excessive and getting in the way of the adventure
There is no adventure in Empire.

>Combine that with some strong characters
The characterization was stronger in A New Hope, where we get a feel for what the characters are like while stuff is actually happening.

>some cool action sequences
Yeah, cool action sequences like Han and Leia waiting for the Empire to just go away.

Quit doing what you're told and liking things because you're "supposed" to like them, and actually form some coherent opinions for yourself.

>>64525537
>And yet it has Luke doing Rocky training he scene prior.
Quoted because Jesus Christ look at how wrong this idiot is.

>>64525159
>Poe's joke in the beginning is exactly the type of moment that articulates why A New Hope is so good
No it doesn't

I agree ANH is much better than ESB, but that line was so clumsy and bad it should have been cut out. The moment, I heard that line, I knew I was in for a shit flick. Not even a movie, just a flick. (If even that)

TFA is no more hollow than Empire and ESB is a massively overrated boring meme, but it has far less aggressive and ugly video game directing compared to TFA. It's good you pointed out Jakku, that was the only remotely cinematic bit out of the entire flick. Then and there it did feel like something that could probably have a future. Then they start throwing the Falcon all over the place and it becomes a video game.

>Kylo Ren has more going on in this film than Vader has in two films.
Kylo Ren is a walking video game, he has nothing going on. He's an engineered meme, just like his meme tantrums. If he's supposed to become a developed Sith in the next episode, no one will take him seriously. His name is what, Ben? That's not conflicting at all with the fact that Obi-Wans fake nickname used to be Ben. Ben Kenobi and Kylo Ben. Tatooine and Jakku. Not very poetic at all. Great thinking by Disney, I'm sure lots of consideration went into that.

>The Force Awakens is quite good on a pure filmmaking level.
it's quite good on an advertising level

>Similar to the hate 09 Star Trek generates, even though it's an even better film than The Force Awakens
Star Trek 09 is well made and fun, I think J.J. put all of his energy into that, because TFA is so trashy and so cheap that it may as well not have been directed by the same jew who directed the slick and smooth Star Trek 09 and its sequel. That's what happens when you drag Disney into the picture. Did you know Kylo was originally a lot more reserved? Rey was supposed to be far more introverted. Finn might have been more than Jar Jar 2.0 etc

if you like TFA, ur not as perceptive as you think

>>64527765
He's poorly used because he's doing big important things that feel peripheral to the rest of the movie. He exists for the sake of a Death Star trench-run recall, and to bail out the protagonists at Maz Kanata's place. Everything about him feels tacked on, though Oscar Isaac is a good actor. Like it or not, he is a (comparatively) major character. Just not a well-used one.

And yes, Rey is pretty abysmal. Ridley was alright, but everything about Rey is obnoxious or just boring. The chemistry between Rey and Finn occasionally works but other times feels totally forced (her confrontation with him after he decides to bail is awkward and feels unearned in the narrative). But that it was even slightly believable is decent enough given everything else. Ditto with Kylo Ren in general.

>It's well-made and entertaining
Diff'rent strokes, I guess.

>>64528814
Why does he have to have as much narrative relevance as the other character? Why does he need to be an important character period? He's the new Wedge Antilles, not the new Han Solo.

>>64528682
>using videos game as an adjective
What the fuck is wrong with you? Are your views that molded by memes?

>>64528495
>It's slow and boring. That middle drags on.
It explores the concepts and setting introduced in the first movie and understands when to slow down.

>There is no adventure in Empire.
Luke going from Hoth to Dagobah to saving his friends in Cloud City felt like an adventure to me.
>The characterization was stronger in A New Hope
Not really. Han and Leia's interactions are very defining. Vader is fleshed out as well, thanks to being given a more thorough explanation of the ease of falling to the Dark Side as well as his confrontation with Luke.
>Yeah, cool action sequences like Han and Leia waiting for the Empire to just go away
Or the entire sequence on Hoth. Or Luke and Vader's duel.

Quit being a contrarian and disliking things because you're "supposed" to like them, and actually form some coherent opinions for yourself.

ITT: lightweight /mu/ tripfag vacations on /tv/ and gets blown out.

>>64528941
Language evolves you fucking 40 year old.

>>64524311
:)

>>64528895
He doesn't. The issue is that he shouldn't exist at all given his entire purpose in the movie (the Starkiller) feels so tacked on and contrived, if not totally irrelevant.

>>64528941
It's a fantastic adjective and describes everything about TFA with all the detail it deserves

TFA wasn't built for theatres, it was built for computer screens intended to be watched at 1,5x speed while buying action figures from amazon

>>64529061
It evolves by popular usage. No one uses video game as and adjective except you.

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>>64529105
I'm a one man army mother fucker. Come at me. Bring your friends.

>>64529097
You just described every Star Wars film after 1977, don't kid yourself. The franchise is more of a corporate venture than an artistic endeavor, At least The Force Awakens is a better way to pass two hours than most of the series.

>>64529203
nope
you're just floundering now

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>>64529167
you don't get to bring friends

>>64529203
every project by george lucas has far more artistic endeavor than the avengers awakens

>>64529075
>tacked on
He's actually fairly central to nearly every story element in the film. The movie just chooses to place its focus on Rey and Finn, which again, it's an issue.

>>64529311
>endeavor as an adjective
Why do you guys keep doing this to me?

>>64529315
>He's actually fairly central to nearly every story element in the film.
Mostly, but his presence is negligible save for the big run against the Starkiller. His character doesn't add much of anything to the movie but an excuse to be able to get the Death Star 3.0 to blow up. Again, I like Oscar Isaac, and I like Poe as a personality. But his character either needed to be worked into the narrative better or he needed to be cut out entirely with some structural alterations to the movie. As it is I feel most of the scenes he's in could've been better used for other things. That's all.

>>64528682
>His name is what, Ben? That's not conflicting at all with the fact that Obi-Wans fake nickname used to be Ben
Han Solo named his son after the person that brought him and Leia together. How does this conflict with anything? If anything it made that scene even more powerful.

>>64529517
I'm having trouble understanding this critique. I don't understand why he needs to have more development, or more relevance to the central thread happening with Rey and Finn. Like I said, he's a cool tertiary character. The film doesn't owe us more than that. Should Lando be removed from Empire because his role could be fulfilled by other characters?

>>64524925

>not 'it's treason then'

WUUAAAAAAAARRRRGGGGGGHHHHHHHH!!!!

>>64528682
So your argument is that it's bad because it's bad? This post is a whole lot of nothing.

>>64529517
What's wrong with supporting characters now? His purpose was to propel Finn along into the rebellion.

>>64528969
>It explores the concepts and setting introduced in the first movie and understands when to slow down.
So does Wookiepedia.

>Luke going from Hoth to Dagobah to saving his friends in Cloud City felt like an adventure to me.
It's not. He drives his ship to Dagobah without any obstacles. Then he drives his ship to Cloud City without any obstacles.

>Not really.
Yeah, really. This one sequence has more characterization than Empire, and it manages to do it while also having things happen: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtoHjGWc2s8

>Vader is fleshed out
Yes, in response to audiences loving him in the first one, they gave him a chance at being more than just a bad guy. Even so, his scenes (and Yoda's) are shining kernels of corn in the shit that is that middle chunk of Empire.

>Or the entire sequence on Hoth. Or Luke and Vader's duel.
Which is why I say "the middle drags on" and not "the whole thing drags on." Hoth and Luke vs Vader are good bookends to an otherwise boring movie.

I'll stop with the digs on you.

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>>64523573
That fucking poster man, 10/10. Empire was the first one I saw when I got it on VHS one Christmas and it had that on the cover. I asked for the other two the next year and they had switched to these total dogshit covers, like it would have looked bad on deviantart tier stuff. To this day I cannot fathom who was making these decisions thinking it was good but this was just before the 'specialised' versions so maybe it was Lucas starting to crack.

>>64529359
that's a perfectly readable sentence

every project by george lucas contains more artistic attempt/effort (and triumph) than guardians of the galaxy awakens

>>64529544
2 Bens is unaesthetic

words evoke images and feelings

imagine someone watching the OT for the first time, he gets used to Luke calling Obi-Wan ben (on tatooine, to his vision on hoth etc) then he watches TFA and suddenly the bad guy is also Ben. No, there's nothing inherently wrong with that, but it's not aesthetic. Star Wars is so detached from our reality that every name is like a brand.

>>64529783
>words evoke images and feelings
Exactly. Which is why calling him Ben makes that scene 10x more emotional. You get the history of Leia and Han and how they feel about their early adventures in that one little detail. It was fucking perfect.

>imagine someone watching the OT for the first time, he gets used to Luke calling Obi-Wan ben
More people know Obi-Wan as Obi-Wan rather than Ben Kenobi, so it's fine.

>>64523573
The best thing about the OT is how fucking expressive and human the characters are, and I think a lot of that has more to do with the main cast having a blast making the movie with each other and being high for large portions of filming more so than anyone's directing.

Either way, these incredibly human characters are being put through their biggest trials and failures in ESB, making the viewer extremely invested in what happens next, even if you've seen the movie a million times and know that Luke is talking to a mound of green leather and fabric with a hand shoved up its ass.

>>64529679
No, because Lando was vital to the scenario and he didn't distract or take-away from other things. A better example would be Lando being in charge of the run in Return of the Jedi.

He needs more development to be justified as being so plot-centric. The movie spends a lot of time on Poe when he is, as you say, tertiary. Trading the Starkiller plot for something else and simply getting rid of Poe would've been more economical. But hey, how would the movie survive without the nostalgic callback?

He's superfluous and has his big moment in an equally superfluous subplot.

>>64529715
it's not bad because it's bad, it's bad because it's engineered meme video games by a committee

>>64529879
>Exactly. Which is why calling him Ben makes that scene 10x more emotional.
I very much doubt that, because Han didn't talk to obi-wan much at all. He could have named his son Anakin or Luke, it would have been just as bad.

>>64529756
>So does Wookiepedia.
Poor equivocation.
>He drives his ship without any obstacles.
True. But he faces plenty of obstacles on both Dagobah and Cloud City.
>This one sequence has more characterization than Empire
I don't think so. It's good, though. ANH is a good movie.
>Which is why I say "the middle drags on"
It's slower, but I don't think it really drags. It takes the time it needs and nothing more. I appreciate the contrast between the slower parts and the quicker parts. There's a lot going on in the middle--especially on Dagobah--that keeps it from being boring.

>>64529981
>I very much doubt that, because Han didn't talk to obi-wan much at all.
Wow, you're an idiot. The fact that Han Solo barely spoke to Obi-Wan is why that detail is so powerful. It means that Han Solo places a particular importance on the adventures he had in ANH where he met Luke and Leia. It says a lot about a guy who puts on a facade of being unsentimental.

>>64529920
Lando betraying Han is the entire impetus for the opening of Jedi, and is one of the film's emotional climaxes. No notion that plot relevance requires a specific amount of screen time is an absurd non sequitur that the rest of the series breaks constantly, whether it be Tarkin, Lando, or even Obi-Wan. It's the nittest of picks.

>>64530083
that's really cute

I was so out of it by the time Han died that I guess I missed the idea there. Shame about the execs turning Kylo Ben into such a clown to the point where every cruel action he did felt meaningless

>>64530286
Kylo Ren is a better villain than Darth Vader was in A New Hope.

>>64523573
I watched it last night for the first time in 20 years. It still holds up.

What I noticed as an adult is that no scene goes on too long, or is too short. So...I guess the editing and script are what makes it "timeless and good."

>>64530201
>Lando betraying Han is the entire impetus for the opening of Jedi
Yes, but I'm not sure what that has to do with my point. My issue isn't that Poe doesn't have much screen time. My issue is that he sort of has too much and feels shoehorned given the structure of the movie. It's as if the film wants to make him more relevant but can't quite figure out how to make him so.

Plot relevance doesn't require a specific amount of screen time, and that's not really what I'm arguing. My argument is that how and when the movie chooses to focus on Poe feels misguided and ultimately pointless given that his payoff is a redundant subplot that feels peripheral.

Given how briskly paced the movie is this is more significant than it would be otherwise. Compared to the other problems the movie has it's something of a nitpick though.

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>>64530330

>>64530450
He's not just the best character in TFA, he's the best character in any film released in 2015. Prove me wrong.

>>64530395
Your problem seems to have much more to do with the recycled third act (semi-recycled; the real focus in my opinion was on the confrontation between Rey and Kylo) than with the character itself. His other major appearances were giving BB-8 the map, helping Finn, and being a recognizable face when the resistance first show up. None of these elements relate to that redundant trench run, and any other character wouldn't make that trench run any less redundant.

>>64530330
Definitely not

he's conflictingly well dressed when taken into account his complete lack of style and grace. These types of contradictory character flaws have no place in capeshit like TFA. They should have made him more "out there". More edgier, more colder. Not meme edge, actual edge SINCERITY. Which is what Star Wars is about. Instead, they opted to present his angry outbursts with comedic effect. Not a good look.

The end result is a villain with potential but terribly muddled execution. That bit where he kept punching his own wound to become more angrier? That was great, they should have gone ALL THE WAY with all of that stuff, instead of sprinkling it with idiocy. Kylo is an apprentice. There are various ways of showing that someone is an amateur. Disney took the most infantile route.

>>64530660
In a competitive field, this is the worst post in this thread. What makes Kylo Ren compelling is the fact that his lack of competence conflicts with his need to be taken seriously. His insecurity and inability to be Darth Vader feeds into his anger making him pathetic (which is what villains ultimately are). They also update him to a 21st century conception of evil, by making him a young school shooter rather than just an intimidating SS officer.

That scene where he captures Rey in the forest is genuinely unsettling. He slowly grows from intimidating to sad creep, and that sort of un-Darth Vaderness is laudable in a film that copies too much from the original Star Wats

>>64530660

>SINCERITY. Which is what Star Wars is about

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PiDRgDmXGi4

>>64530925
But Kylo Ren is frequently depicted as being quite competent. Rey just bests him because reasons.

He's conflicted, he has some severe insecurities, and he's certainly pathetic, but he's still ultimately competent. Just unrefined. Rey being able to turn his mental judo on him and best him in their duel doesn't change this. In fact, it's for this reason that both instances feel jarring and unearned, even if subsequent movies will undoubtedly explain her competence. Kylo Ren is clearly gifted and dangerous. He just isn't very imposing, which is the point of his character.

>>64525616
>The only thing people mutually agreed upon was the snow walkers were cool.

The Hoth battle might still be my favorite part of all 7 movies so far. The asteroid cloud chase is a very close second.

>>64530062
>Poor equivocation.
It's dead on. "World building" isn't good if it's presented in such a boring, dry way.

>But he faces plenty of obstacles on both Dagobah and Cloud City.
On Dagobah? Not really. Calling his training on Dagobah an "adventure" is a huge stretch. Nothing is at risk when he's on Dagobah.

On Cloud City? Yeah, but that's the end.

>I don't think so.
That one scene alone sums up exactly what kind of people the characters are. From it, you can see that Luke is a young, somewhat naive man who means well and wants to do good. You see that Han is the sort of person who gets by by the seat of his pants, that he's a bullshitter. You see that Leia is, despite being a young, petite lady, is a take-charge no-bullshit woman who can handle her own.

What new things do you learn about Han and Leia in Empire? That they're in love, but even that's not new considering there is a sexual tension between them in A New Hope. If the "characterization" in Empire is so good, we'd be learning new things about these characters, but we don't really (other than Vader, but that's only because Vader gets a bigger part in this one because he was so liked in the last one).

>It's slower
It drags. It takes it's time, but as I've pointed out, nothing really happens. We don't learn new things about these characters. We get a whole lot of nothing, highlighted with a few good parts from Vader and Yoda, but the majority of it is just boring because there isn't that much going on.

>>64531280
>But Kylo Ren is frequently depicted as being quite competent
Only initially. He then loses the droid, loses Rey, isn't taken seriously, and gets his ass kicked. They make of point of saying that he's young, rash, and that his training isn't complete.

>>64531484
He loses Rey because Rey is special and asspulls her way out of trouble every single time she's presented with an obstacle in the movie. He gets his ass kicked in a similar instance.

He's still capable of mental probing and can stop laser blasts with the Force. He's young, untrained, and prone to juvenile tantrums, but he's still clearly powerful. Rey's just an awful character. She does undermine him, yes, but then she also undermines the entire movie.

>>64531588
>untrained
*not fully trained

>>64531588
We're arguing a minor point here, but I think that the film deliberately tries to undermine his power on multiple occasions, and it really starts the second he takes off his mask. Apparently people laughed in theaters around the world, but given Rey's reaction I assume that that was sort of the point. Yes, he's not a completely enervate character, but he is emasculated more than once. He comes across as more of a creep than a badass.

>>64531484
>>But Darth Vader is frequently depicted as being quite competent
>Only initially. He then loses the droids, gets bossed around by the british, isn't taken seriously, and barely beats an old man. Then he gets shot out of the fucking sky by a flying piece of trash.

>>64531781
He also isn't prone to emotional outbursts, cries, and gets his hand cut off by a girl.

>>64531897
>gets his hand cut off by a girl.

Did you not watch return of the jedi, bro? Also that doesn't happen to Ren, it would have been cool as shit if it did - I thought it did too at first. Only saw it the one time I guess?

>He also isn't prone to emotional outbursts, cries
Didn't see the prequels? Haha just kidding, those don't exist.

>>64523854
Hey look everybody! It's Jason Ward from Making Star Wars. Net. (And your local Dairy Queen). Hi Jason!

Guess what fatso, the prequels are garbage. No matter how much you apologize for them they are still an ungodly mess.

Empire, on the other hand, is s classic.

>>64524596
You have a low fucking IQ.

>>64531952
>Did you not watch return of the jedi, bro?
That happens when he's finally defeated, not in the first film. And I think it actually does happen to Kylo. I'm like 80% sure.

>>64524596
the force was always meant to be inspired by Joseph Campbell, meaning it was always meant to be "pseudo-Buddhist" you tripfag

>>64530925
sry for the pause Jeff, I got a small block/ban

anyway let me tell you why you're wrong

>nd that sort of un-Darth Vaderness is laudable in a film that copies too much from the original Star Wats
Except it really isn't

just go all the way or don't go at all. School shooters aren't remembered as villains, they're internet memes

and even if it it were an actual successful adaptation of this type of thing you describe, they completely fucked it up because they forgot to give him the ultimate intimidating quality. Sincerity. You want elliot rodger? Look at hayden christensen in attack of the clones

Literally in one of the first scenes of the movie, the reddit pilot cucks "ben" out of his own scene and challenges his authority with a disney approved quip by asking which one of them is supposed to start the little show

later on we find out that even the storm troopers are embarrassed by him. Yes, this is all of that stuff you're talking about. Lack of competence and unprofessional-ism in work. But it's presented in the most juvenile manner possible. You look at these school shooters and stuff, they aren't inherently cartoony before you turn them into reaction images. They're disturbing people. Kylo Ren is a capeshit villain (no less than Vader in ANH in the overall sense) he acts like a capeshitter and not like psychopath. The only moments in which he acts like a Sith take place AFTER he has finished embarrassing himself through an engineered "funny disney moment"

The reason people will remember Vader over Kylo is because Vader doesn't have a hint of readable irony to his character when you see him in ANH. You just know he's bad. He doesn't destroy computers, he destroys his own crew men.

Kylo Ren? They try and turn that whole thing around, but then they end up cover any hints of subtlety with a layer of shit and youtube approved meme trash instead of actually making an edgy, interesting volatile character, this school shooter type you describe

>>64524980
George is the worst big budget director of the last 40 years.

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Why is Vader (and all other sith to an extent) shown as an over emotional prick in the Prequels - and the sith code is all about emotion and shit.

But in the OT he's not emotional at all. He's a cold blooded killer, he'll choke a nigga without a word. He's having Shakespearean dialogue while dueling.

I know this shit is being made up as it goes, so where did they draw that idea from? It's really not portrayed anywhere in the OT

>>64523707

Cloud City looked pretty amazing for the movie's time.

>>64532370
The thing of it is, the surface emotional stuff is more of a meme born from video games or something. Look at Darth Maul and he's a stone cold killer as well

You're supposed to use the anger when you're in battle. The hate is a shortcut to quick power, you're supposed to channel it internally. Sith are seething with aggression when they fight.

I guess sith apprentices and noobs are still learning to channel that passion

just like jedi try to suppress it

Dooku is pretty similar to Vader. They're both fairly smug, but Dooku is more readable.

Sheev is the ultimate Sith, he's. He's post-Vader. He's reached the post-ironic stage where he's just laughing like a maniac and throwing shit around

>>64531897
>gets his hand cut off by a girl
Watch it again. His hand doesn't get cut off, and he clearly has both when the earth splits.

>>64532207
Kylo Ren is completely sincere, and the two moments that the film veers from that aren't actually intended to be a wink towards the audience. Poe's quip simultaneously establishes both the tone of the film and his character. This doesn't weaken Kylo in any discernible way, it just established Poe as a rougeish Han Solo type. The second example with the Stormtroopers was a simple moment of Stormtrooper humanization, which this films does a much better job of than any other film in the series. It's scenes like that (and the traitor sequence) that made them seem like actual people rather than just another faceless enemy.

Kylo Ren never actually comes across as a joke; he comes across as weak, insecure, and full of self-doubt. He sits there vacillating about whether or not he should kill his own father, like an evil Hamlet with Vader's helmet being his Yorick skull. This a much more interesting and realistic portrayal of psychopathy than Lucas was able to pull off with Vader, and the notion that he needs to be badass or edgy is utterly juvenile.

I like A New Hope more 2bqh family.

>>64532648
>He's reached the post-ironic stage where he's just laughing like a maniac and throwing shit around
He hates so much that it's wrapped around and turned back into love. Emperor is the best fucking SW villain no doubt.

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>that dank Polish minimalist poster

>>64525317
Boba Fett is the one SW phenomenon I never understood. He didn't do shit worth mentioning.

>>64532900
That's fucking awesome. Minimalism is pretty cool when it's not used by hacks as an excuse to be lazy.

>>64533018
The original voice actor sounded badass. People who grew up on the special editions don't get it for that simple reason

>>64533018
He looks really cool and he's the most normal guy in the OT to pose a legitimate threat to the protagonists. That armor he wears really is awesome.

>>64533018

really cool armor

same reason Vader gained fame

>>64533096
>Boba Fett
>badass
No.

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>>64524133

>you will never gaze into those glittering eyes and see your own reflection

Why even live fampai?

>>64533102
He never managed to do anything to them, though. He didn't capture them, he didn't hurt them, he didn't locate them. He was given Han Solo, cashed in, and died like a chump.
>>64533159
Vader did shit, though.

>>64527176
He is heard talking in the trailers, though.

>>64533018
The thing is actually a lot of stuff in the OT is almost more the promise of something cool than something cool we actually got to see.

Just off the top of my head "The Clone Wars" is mentioned in one line. And everyone knew Vader was "The dark lord of the sith" but wtf a sith was, we had no idea for a really long time.

Part of why the prequels suck is because they went ahead and explained it. And when you explain something, sometimes it loses its appeal.

>>64533412
>And when you explain something, sometimes it loses its appeal.
True, it gives your imagination something to work with.

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A talented director

>>64524980
>better edited
Ironic considering that the original 4 hour cut of Star Wars was considered so heinously bad that Georgie's former wife had to save it in editing, a little fest recognized by the Academy for its brilliance. Lucas has always relied on the kindness of strangers. Funny that this is most apparent in ESB, the best fucking film of the series, you bitter contrarian.

>>64533566
this tbqh sempai

>>64532762
You raise these points of supposed sincerity, but it's as if you read a transcript of the movie rather than actually watching it, because I didn't feel any of that. Especially with the bit about the traitor guy (complete social media meme bait with action figures of him being already manufactured beforehand), Poe being a "rougeish han solo type" (which I just don't see, oscar doesn't have the the tools to pull it off. Wasn't he supposed to be a wedge antilles nobody-tier guy?), the storm trooper humanization (this is something people had generally come to expect from star wars parodies)

I mean so many of these things, it's like a checklist of fanservice, that might have had sincere origins, but it sure as fuck did not translate into the movie the way you describe it. When I saw the traitor guy, it felt like a student fan movie trying to do something with storm troopers that hadn't been done before, but it doesn't feel like something I'd ever expect or want out of Star Wars. And that's the thing, underneath all the titles and marketing, TFA really is technically just an unofficial fan movie as far as art goes. In terms of business, I guess it can be whatever they call it. But all the confusion people here have with TFA is pretty clear. It's not the real Star Wars from the guy they're used to dealing with. It's something different, from different people. I'd like to call it a failed experiment, but I could probably see it working in text format. I actually heard people talking about the novelization in good light, so it could be there is some thought in there somewhere. That being said you and most mainstream audiences clearly seem to have enjoyed the movie, so that's fascinating

>>64533775
ANH actually had the most help done with editing (and it shows)

ESB clearly needed less cutting, but then again it's also not as dense and not as well edited

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Empire was grimdark Star Wars before you had to try to be grimdark in a movie

>>64532762
>the notion that he needs to be badass is utterly juvenile.
no it isn't tripkuck. 'sad confused incompetent guy' could be a general character but it makes for a shit antagonist. he's both more interesting as a character and an obstacle if he remains capable but held back by internal turmoil

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>>64523713
>>64523728
Stop

>>64534315
my wifes son loves this scene

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Kersh was so based

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>>64524240
I just watched the OT for the first time these past few days, here are my thoghts

>ANH
Overall lacking, all the action is rushed into the last 10 minutes when everyone dies but Luke and the death star is blown up. Most characters are too bland but some, like Tarkin are great stand-outs
7/10
>ESB
Well paced, nice locations, and a much greater depth of characters. Despite all the bad shit, you still have hope things will get better.
9/10
>ROTJ
Very lopsided, but the final battle sequence is my favorite of the entire OT. At times too much was happening, and the Ewoks didn't help, but the showdown with Luke, Palpy, and Vader was fantastic
8/10

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>>64534424
what a fag lmao

>>64523573
>flawless

There isn't a single Star Wars movie better than a 7/10.

>>64533957
I agree with this. To go further, I would add that TFA gets so lost in fan service or nostalgia that it quickly loses sight of its main characters and just what the hell their motivations are. For example Rey's freakout following the lightsaber vision. It completely clashes with her previously established character, the Rey we had been previously shown would have wanted to know more and why this occurred. It felt a lot like something Finn would do, not Rey.
Similarly, Finn's journey stops halfway through the movie. He is all set to flee to the outer rim, but the plot brings war to him, and after that he is focused on rescuing Rey. Yet there wasn't a moment where he had to decide to be selfless and not run, his decision was made for him by the plot.
We are told that Rey does not want to leave Jakku, but then she seems so excited to get BB8 to the Resistance base, if only to give fans the reaction when she exclaims 'Luke Skywalker?!'. She doesn't want to leave yet leaves with Finn anyway, and before she can make a meaningful choice, the plot forces her to leave anyway.

Compare to Empire, Yoda constantly criticizes Luke for being impulsive/letting his emotions get in the way. Thus Luke makes the decision to go and rescue his friends in Cloud City, which results in him nearly dying.

Or even Han in ANH, he initially is only in it for the money, but his bond with Luke grows, however he still makes the choice to leave the fight before the Battle of Yavin. This makes his last minute rescue of Luke a meaningful moment of his character.

In TFA it feels like JJ and Kasdan threw in lots of unrelated character beats for Rey, Finn and Kylo but didn't try to tie them together in a logical manner.

>>64533957
You've bought into the auteur meme. Because it's not made by the man who made Star Wars it of course can't "feel" like Star Wars, even though its far closer the original trilogy both tonally and aesthetically than the prequels ever were. There's a clear anti-Disney bias that has permeated the Star Wars fanbase since that sale. The highly corporatized Lucasfilm is somehow seen as more capable of creative output that the highly corporatized Disney - something that's clearly not the case given the superior output of Disney-owned studios like Pixar.

Yes, it's a glorified fan film. That's not inherently bad. In fact, fan films are generated by more passion than the cynical caretakers who clearly didn't care about the franchise anymore and constantly complained about not being able to do something else were able to muster. There's far more love in the practical work of countless artisans than in the cold, sterile work done by underpaid computer animators.

All of the critiques in your post are so removed from my experience watching the film that it feels like your irrational hate for the film came before you were able to come up with a justification as to why that irrational hate exists. If feels likes you're scrambling to find ways to discredit any positive opinion one might have of the movie, independent of its actual quality.

>>64534493
>ESB
>Well paced
ESB has the worst, slowest pacing of any of the Star Wars films.

>greater depth of characters
No. ANH has better characterization while at the same time doing other things.

Empire is a good movie, but it's a poor sequel.

>>64534672
ANH sets up all the characters and yes that takes time, but I didnt sense any depth other than Vader is bad but something off, and Luke Good, Han good, Leia good, etc.

>>64534525
>the Rey we had been previously shown would have wanted to know more and why this occurred. It felt a lot like something Finn would do, not Rey.
She's reluctant to leave Jakku. The film reinforces that reluctance multiple times. That scene is completely in character.

>to decide to be selfless and not run, his decision was made for him by the plot.
Did you miss the conversation that preceded the fight at Maz's palace? Or his willingness to accept it once Maz gives him Luke's lightsaber?

>We are told that Rey does not want to leave Jakku, but then she seems so excited to get BB8 to the Resistance base,
Of course Han going from self-interested to selfless is organic, but Rey going from reluctant to accepting isn't. Reason? JJ Abrams is a hack!

It really does seem like the dislike for the film came before the reasons for that dislike were ever conceived.

>>64534745
>but I didnt sense any depth other than Vader is bad but something off, and Luke Good, Han good, Leia good, etc.

Then you didn't watch the movie very well, Anon.

>>64533018
To me the implication was always that Darth Vader, being one of the most powerful, menacing guys out there, could have hired anybody in the galaxy to help him out with some of the dirty work. The fact that he chose Boba Fett always suggested to me that the guy meant very serious business, that he was no joke. His menacing but quiet demeanor, his (original) voice, his iconic armor, and allusions to his violent past ("this time, no disintegrations") give the character an aura of mystery that people remember fondly.

It's about the implicit ideas we have about his offscreen past, not what we actually see him do.

>>64534745
>the only characterization given to Luke, Han, and Leia in ANH is "they're good"
Are you just "trolling," or are you really this stupid?

>>64534960
And then it turns out he's just a slower ageing stormtrooper.

Bravo Lucas

>>64534876
Not them, but you're literally incapable of making that argument considering you're making it with the full information of the series coloring your perspective when you watch the movies. You could literally be planting your own ideas that you got from the later movies into ANH and filling in gaps that aren't there.

The fact that you cannot forget what you know and watch it fresh means you can't be sure you aren't reading something that isn't actually there.

>>64525026
Uhh how about the fucking RING?!?!

>>64534960
One other thing I forgot to mention is that he has the ultimate lone wolf persona. He's just a hired gun who's motivated by personal interests, in this case money. Han Solo was introduced to us as a suave, cocky, badass criminal outlaw who knew how cool he was, but even he had a best friend and a sidekick. Boba Fett has no allegiance to anyone, not even Darth Vader and Jabba the Hutt. He only partnered with him because they offered top dollar for his services. He is his own guy from top to bottom.

>>64535054
Pretty much. This is one of my least favorite things about the prequel trilogy. It just completely trashed Boba Fett's mysticism.

>>64535019
I havent seen the prequels yet, and i made these impressions after each film independently before watching the next one.

If you want to merge together all the movies and universes together to prove yourself right then so be it.

>>64535123
Using your argument, you can't say "Empire has good characterization" because you're making that argument with the full information of the series coloring your perspective when you watch that movie.

>>64525393
>I will say this much about ESB. After it was over, a lot of people were upset that the question of whether Vader was Luke's father or not was not answered.

Um, yes it was, did they walk out before the final millennium falcon chase? Luke searches his feelings and knows it to be true, just like vader said. Then he gets really pissed at ben.

>>64525616
>The only thing people mutually agreed upon was the snow walkers were cool.

Not even. Old reviews I've read, they're totally confused why they didn't just bomb hoth with space craft. Walkers were just "not star wars" to some people because there was nothing like them in until empire.

>>64535259
>Luke's only characterization is "he's a good guy" in A New Hope

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1gpXMGit4P8

That one short, half minute shot says more about Luke and his character than Empire ever did.

>>64535314
No. In fact, George Lucas realized that it wasn't clear, and made sure to have Yoda clarify that it was true (a psychologist told him to use Yoda for this).

>>64534632
>even though its far closer the original trilogy both tonally and aesthetically than the prequels ever were

No. It's aesthetically a more aggressive Star Trek 2009. It's J.J. tv directing. Don't confuse "real sets" with actual directorial aesthetic. The prequels are Star Wars through and through. It seems you've bought into the meme of the idea of buying into the auteur meme, when in actuality it's a very tangible thing and present all over the place. You even contradict yourself right after by saying "it can't 'feel' like Star Wars but it's closer to the OT in term of aesthetic and tone." The truth is, you're high on some memes I'm not aware of, because not even the people who created that marketing slogan don't believe in that shit. It's "competently made" from a certain point of view, but really aside from that, it has about as much common with the OT as any fan film that would have access to practical effects. For most casual audiences, that's enough. I didn't intend to give off a vibe of irrational hate for the film, because like I said earlier I really enjoyed some of Abrams' other stuff. And by the way, Pixar was a Lucasfilm studio. It was only acquired by Disney in 2006. Let's not pretend that..:

Ratatouille
WALL-E
Up
Toy Story 3
Cars 2
Brave
Monsters University
Inside Out

is superior output compared to

Toy Story
A Bug's Life
Toy Story 2
Monsters, Inc.
Finding Nemo
The Incredibles
Cars

>>64535259
Using that logic, when you saw Empire after Hope, you "merged together" those two movies in your head.

>>64524240
the ewoks had to look harmless or the empire would have wiped them out before building their shield generator on the planet. that the empire had overlooked the hidden danger was representative of their willful ignorance concerning non-humans

the second death star was a symbol of the empire's folly and palpatine's stubborn pride. it was being made at palpatine's insistence and it was meant to suggest the implacability of the empire. note that the empire's fleet could have wiped out the rebels at any time, but for palpatine it had to be the death star specifically that did the job

>>64524240
1: Han Solo wasted
2: Luke/Han/Leia triangle wasted
3: Jabba's Palace sequence makes no sense
4: The Throne Room scenes are too fucking good and overshadow the rest of the movie
5: Pacing all over the goddamn place
6: Ewoks are shit
7: "You built a sword so I guess you're a real Jedi now"
8: Death Star 2 does nothing, does not affect the plot at all
9: Boba the Flunky
10: Rancor guy is a sad alien dad

>>64535461
>George Lucas realized

You have to admit this is totally meaningless

In every instance of george changing his mind, the former position was correct

>>64535461
>(a psychologist told him to use Yoda for this).

Also a child psychologist, for children

Adults knew niggas don't lie about shit like that

>>64535825
I'm old enough to have seen Empire the first time it was in theaters, and old enough to remember the three year wait to find out if Darth Vader was telling the truth or not.

>>64535797
>3: Jabba's Palace sequence makes no sense

My impression was that they were scoping out jabba for the first time and they were totally unprepared for the scale of what they were getting themselves into. They were expecting that Han owed money to a mob boss type guy but they probably weren't expecting it to be one of the most powerful crime lords in the galaxy.

But I have to wonder why the fuck the rebellion wouldn't help them rescue someone as important as han, the guy who helped destroy the first death star.

>>64535851
>adults knew
>implying adults watch star wars back then

>>64535899
Were you an adult or child?

I've never seen it as ambiguous. In his talk with the emperor, vader is sympathetic to luke, diminishes him as a threat to the empire, and talks like he cares about him.

>>64535960
>But I have to wonder why the fuck the rebellion wouldn't help them rescue someone as important as han, the guy who helped destroy the first death star.

Writing what you want in your movie regardless of what is logical for characters, that's why.

>>64536107
Teen.

You've never seen it as ambiguous because you watched it knowing it's true. But for three years, people argued whether it was true or if Vader was just fucking with him or something. At the time, I wasn't too sure either way, but I had a friend who was sure Vader wasn't his father because "Emperor said 'he's the son of Anakin' and not 'he's your son' to Vader."

>>64523854
Literally this. I really wish these delusional star wars fans could get their own board and talk shit among themselves because they aren't fooling any of us

>>64536203
>"Emperor said 'he's the son of Anakin'

Oh, I see how that could really throw people. The best way to know is to rewatch the movie from the perspective that vader is his father to see if it makes more or less sense. And in the tell-tale scene, the emperor implies he's not.

>>64528495
>It's slow and boring. That middle drags on.
You have ADD. Go watch anime or something.
>There is no adventure in Empire.
From Hoth to Dagobah to Bespin is an Adventure. You're simply wrong.
>The characterization was stronger in A New Hope, where we get a feel for what the characters are like while stuff is actually happening.
No it's better here. Vader was just some guy in a suit in IV. Here, him and Luke are much more dynamic. Luke attempts to prove to Yoda that he is worthy of being a Jedi. Leia gives in to liking Han. Han risks his life to save Luke and finally gives in to settling down with Leia.
>Yeah, cool action sequences like Han and Leia waiting for the Empire to just go away.
Astroid Belt chase, The Battle of Hoth (which is one the most iconic battles in the history of movies).
>Quit doing what you're told and liking things because you're "supposed" to like them, and actually form some coherent opinions for yourself.
Oh so you're just a contrarian. Pro tip: if everyone is praising something, there's a good chance there's a reason for that praise.

>>64536469
See >>64529756

>>64535486
Your hyperbolic hatred of the film isn't serious, and i'm tired of taking your posts at face value and wasting time responding to points that amount to little more than long-winded "nuh uhs." JJ's directorial style is utterly cinematic, especially when compared to counterparts like Snyder and Whedon. The fact that you'd call the 20 minutes on Jakku "t.v. directing" really just pushes your post into the absurd.

And the top list is infinitely superior to the bottom list. Wall-E is a nearly perfect children's film. Cars is terrible.

>>64536203
pretty sure he says son of skywalker

>>64536778
I'm not sure the exact line, just that he doesn't say "he's your son" but rather "he's Skywalker's son."

>>64536620
There you go again

you take the one decent part of the movie, "Jakku" which I already gave an exception to and praised earlier in here and ignore the bad shit

WALL-E is just about the only decent post-lucasfilm pixar animation on the list and that's only because it was by Andrew Stanton and Jim Reardon who also made Nemo, Monsters Inc, Toy Story etc


My "hatred" isn't hyperbolic, your view of it is. I'm just real about the movie compared to most people. Slightly earlier you did manage to remind me that it was a fan project after all, so I guess there was something to be gained from this on my end.

>>64533566
>Dr. Vader, I'm Rebellion

>>64524868
>came up literally fucking out of nowhere during TPM pre-hype.

You should go watch Clerks... I think that movie came out in like 1997

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>>64535797
>10: Rancor guy is a sad alien dad
He I like Rancor guy, remember getting any action figure of him for Christmas one year when I was kid because I think my dad just picked a bunch of random ones.

>>64536521
Nah.

>>64536998
Dislike the film all you want, i'm tired of memes about JJ being a t.v. director. If his films are anything they're cinematic. No tempered criticism, just "JJ is a hack" "Episode VII is the worst Star Wars movie." Just hyperbolic internet nonsense that remind me that every user review on metacritic is either a 10/10 or a 0/10.

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>>64535797

>hating on rancor guy

>>64523707
>it's a not pretentious but still informative post on /tv/
god bless

>>64537281
I understand

>>64528682
You had me up until you said ST:ID was slick and smooth
10/10

>>64525195
>So be it...Jedi.

Ian Mcdiarmid has a fucking gift with his voice. His words dripping with venom

hyperbolic love of star wars set aside.

is there a better chase sequence in all of cinema than the scene with the falcon in the asteroids?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DvvK4CJ7CVU

>>64535797
don't talk shit on Rancor guy.

>>64537159
That Rancor Trainer action figure from the '80's was worth like $300 last time I heard anything about it.

>>64537281
Why is this tripfag still posting

>>64531484
But losing to rey is exactly why hes a shit character as well as rey.
Hes an amateur but so less than rey, and she still beats him. Its cartoon villain tier.
They should have been more consistent with how they wrote kylo

>>64537548
Nah, I got this one in like '96-7 I think? It was apart of the newer lines of figures that came out for Shadows of the Empire I believe.

>>64526883
Robocop 2

>>64537413
Yes.

Every other chase sequence.

>>64535314
It wasn't entirely clear to the audience (and most certainly not to me) because Darth Vader is the bad guy. Audiences generally don't trust bad guys to tell the truth especially if they have something to gain.

Vader wanted Luke to join him and topple the emperor. He might have been pretending to be Luke's father to persuade Luke.

>>64537967
>"but but but it was so obvious"
>was born after jedi
>knew vader was luke's dad before even seeing the movies on tv or whatever

>>64535228
Honestly, I cannot remember anything particularly spellbinding about the ring. Some of the previous posts talk about a tracking shot as it flies into air while rotating before falling onto Frodo's finger.

Perhaps I'm jaded from seeing too many things but that visual effect is just not that amazing to my eyes. I saw something similar in Michael Jackson's "Smooth Criminal" video where to flips the coin into the jukebox.

If you want to talk about objects thrown into the air that have incredible visual impact, the king of such visuals is Kubrick's transition from a leg bone to an orbiting satellite.

>>64537967
True to some degree but i think its mostly a fan nitpick/specualtion. Like how were nitpicking about what happened in TFA and what could/should happen in ep 8.
But that father reveal scene is fairly straightforward at least for 2016, weve become used to the tropes. Maybe not in 1980 though.

>>64534876
Nah hes right. The biggest gripe with SW is that the empire doesbt seem that evil apart from
1. Blowing up alderaan
2. Having nazi imagery
3. An evil looking leader

>>64528682
>Then and there it did feel like something that could probably have a future
Rey's spelunking and the collapsed Imperial war machines were my favorite part of the movie. It felt very post-OT, as if there had been a lot of damage done in the world over the Empire's collapse.

Unfortunately they didn't follow through on that and had to include The Empire Mk. II

>>64538121

Yes. There's too much "poetry" in the follow-ups to the original trilogy.

People watching the original trilogy as they came out in the theaters in the 1970s and 1980s had never seen films such as Star Wars before. These were entirely new characters and there were no previous Star Wars films to reference. Even for people who were aware of Lucas ripping off "The Hidden Fortress" and other films, the vast majority people did not have access to see those things. VCRs had just come out, most movies were not out on VCR, and those movies that were out on VCR were priced at $200 (no bullshit) or so.

In that vacuum of information, Vader stating he was Luke's father was a genuine shock to the audience.

>>64538219
Vader chokes a prisoner to death at the very beginning.

Then later we see the charred corpses of Luke's uncle and aunt, and are told the Empire killed them. Also, we see all those Jawas killed by the Empire.

Also, they destroy a peaceful planet and we're told Kenobi feels a million (or whatever) of them cry out in anguish simultaneously, so it's not like they died peacefully.

And they also close down the Senate and talk about how they have all the power. People like democracy.

And we see them torture Leia.

>>64538121
It's obvious now because "Vader is Luke's father" is so ingrained in our culture that people who ain't never seen no Star Wars even know that much.

>>64535358
>why they didn't just bomb the base

It's literally explained in the movie. The rebels knew of the impending arrival of the Imperials and therefore had time to activate a shield that could presumably repel all orbital bombardment. The only way to destroy the base was to first approach it on land and destroy the shield generator.

After the generator was destroyed the rebels were already BTFO anyway and the Imperials were inside their base on the ground so it wouldn't have made sense to do an orbital bombardment at that point.

How can people be so retarded?