Just saw this last night, and I actually enjoyed it.
I don't understand the hate or the negative response toward Qui-Gon betting and the trade dispute (RLM)
It all made sense to me, even though I wondered why Palpatine couldn't just forge the the signature.
I think if Lucas removed that part, the movie would improve a lot. It has the same Lucas voice that's apparent in A New Hope, which is missing completely in TFA.
You guys should watch this flick with an open mind.
No, this isn't bait. I liked it.
It's been hilarious seeing all you fuckers doing a total 180 on the prequels after TFA came out.
Because those were topics in the RLM review, anon. Mike went over and over how it didn't make any sense, even though Qui-Gon explained to Watto and the audience, very carefully, what he wanted in return.
>First: He would sponsor Anakin in the race. If Anakin wins, Qui-Gon gets the hyperdrive generator. If he looses, then Watto keeps Qui-Gon's ship.
>Second bet: Now that Qui-Gon knows about Selbulba, he changes his bet, saying that he wants both Anakin and Shmi. Since Watto disagrees, Qui-Gon wants Anakin then. They roll, Qui-Gon cheats, and wins.
It's not that hard to grasp.
TPM is my favourite prequel and I don't understand why everyone sucks off RotS on this board, for me it's Clones-tier.
I guess most of the people on this board weren't old enough to see it when it came out
>Constantly bombarded with prequel hate on the internet
>Decide to ignore them
>TFA comes out
>More prequel hate and love
>Ehh, why not, I'll give it a shot
Can't blame a guy for trying, anon.
You're missing the point. Why are there teo bets in the first place, why needlessly complicate a plot point that will be dropped not five to ten minutes later. Its indicative of the movie really, how needlessly complicated and sterile it all is when it could be written far more efficiently for better effect.
I too think its the best of the prequels, since its the one that tries to be the most fun
I disagree, there's nothing complicated here at all.
Because Selbulba is guaranteed to win, and especially since Anakin hasn't won a race. Due to the difficult challenge, Qui-Gon wants a stronger bet on his end. So he now wants the parts for the ship and Anakin's freedom.
It's not complicated at all. Factor in Qui-Gon's character, a man who lives by his own rules and ignores those who tell him what to do, like the council or Obi-Wan. It all makes sense to me.
I think age plays a strong role in the hate. I'm going to watch AOTC and ROTS today or tomorrow.
Yeah, and like >>64471112 said, the writing could've been more stronger, like in TPM, but TPM honestly wasn't bad at all. It's overblown hate imo.
It's very different compared to "I want to be ANH" TFA, which I admired.
It's at least the movie that really highlights that the Jedi were the morally questionable force in the universe and simply had to go. In the interest of 'peace' Qui-Gon stands by and watches a kid get ripped away from his slave mother, who will be eventually raped and beaten to death.
Why not just take your lightsaber, hold it to the flying Jew's neck, and ask if he'd like to sell the mother as well? Right, because the Jedi are cultural relativists who see no problem in allowing such activities to thrive.
I'm afraid you missed my point. Its not WHAT Qui Gon is doing, its how its written that is the issue. Sure you understand it fine, but that doesn't negate the fact that its needlessly convoluted for what that scene is trying to accomplish.
Again, the issue is with how its written
It was a dull, confused movie
It was overly ambitious and insultingly childish at the same time. You had poop jokes mixed with murder and political intrigue.
The characters couldn't carry it, so all that was left were some neat action scenes and a great score.
You don't need a 90 minute review to explain this.
It absolutely is more convoluted and clunky than it needs to be, considering the scene os suppose to illustrate Qui Gon's cleverness but since Wado is already sort of stupid it comes off as overly complicated and not particularly clever.
This is again the third time I've had to explain simple scripting issues.
I never saw it as Qui-Gon trying to be clever other than him hiding the fact that the pod isn't his. Qui-Gon wants to leave the world, but with Anakin too, why is this so difficult for you idiots?
>It's not overwritten.
>It's not convoluted.
did having two bets instead of one further the narrative, or inform our understanding of Qui Gon's characters in any meaningful way?
I've been defending the prequels for years now and I'm certainly not the only such poster on /tv/. And I fucking loved Phantom Menace all the way back in 1999, dude you don't even know.
Not everything is the result of contrarian bandwagoning.
I understood it fine, even back when I saw it as a kid. Doesn't change the fact that its written incredibly poorly, or is discussing simple problems in your childrens movie triggering your autism.
> lets spend time writing and rewriting how Qui Gon pulls a fast one over Wado
> this is important for the overarching plot in the phantom menace and does a very good job characterizing Qui Gon
Let's not forget that Qui-Gon felt Anakin the moment he arrived via the Force. Since he's risking his ship, and because Selbulba is the top podracer, why not raise the initial bet you gave?
Think about it. Qui-Gon knows what's he's doing.
Literally missed the point of that post. Selbulba is another character that can be altered, its not like they need to adhere to his character in any meaningful way.
There are better ways to keep the plot moving for Qui Gon to leave with Anakin. All this tunnel vision is embarrassing
That doesn't answer the question, goofus
Do you understand the concept of a lean script? If a line or action isn't contributing to the narrative or character development in any meaningful way, then it is unnecessary. It doesn't matter if it "makes sense".
If a script has unnecessary lines or actions, its overwritten. This is not a complicated issue.
>Selbulba is another character that can be altered, its not like they need to adhere to his character in any meaningful way.
What are you talking about? Please clarify
>There are better ways to keep the plot moving for Qui Gon to leave with Anakin. All this tunnel vision is embarrassing
Yes, anon, let's pretend that Qui-Gon goes full Rambo and charges at Watto, killing him, and stealing the part he needs. yes.
>Selbulba is another character that can be altered, its not like they need to adhere to his character in any meaningful way.
Why go to Tatooine at all then, why not set the entire movie in the tea room of the trade federation ship, it's more streamlined so it's better! it's simpler so it's better!
There's nothing overwritten about it, especially when Watto makes light of Selbulba to Qui-Gon right before the race. It's a good reaction on Qui-Gon's part. Qui-Gon doesn't have to spell out his agenda to you, Nolan eater. He has a plan and wants to succeed.
If you still don't see it. Watch the scene, anon.
Qui-Gon questions Watto as to why he believes that Watto will win, ect, and then changes his bet. He doesn't say "Hey brah, gonna change that bet now! xD"
What I mean is the argument that so and so had to do anything because of another is silly because its all written and thus could be rewritten to better tell its story.
Arguing what characters can and cannot do because of what other characters (especially minor characters) interfer with that is an argument for bad writing.
Wow its almost as if minor characters don't carry nearly the same weight as major plot points and settings in the script! Do you work for hollywood?
Watto failed to mention Selbulba and his great chances to Qui-Gon and decides to gush about him right before the race, with high confidence. Of course Qui-Gon isn't going go roll over and say "good luck." All is on the line, so he changes it, wanting to free Anakin as well as acquiring the parts he needs.
>it makes sense
>but what does it contribute to the character or narrative?
>it makes sense
>but what does it contribute to the character or narrative?
>it makes sense
This has been a really engaging conversation
The first one is not even a bet, he simply uses his ship as collateral so Watto would pay the entry fee, he does is purely to get what he wanted: the parts to fix the ship.
THEN he finds out Watto is betting everything on Sebulba, so he bets the pod for the boy since he finds out Watto has no trust in the boy at all which gives him leverage for a more favorable bet.
You're failing to read my posts, anon. I'm saying, exactly what the narrative is trying to say and it makes sense. You're pointlessly arguing about "lean scripting" and basic principles without even factoring in the characters (wants, needs, and hidden agendas). It's clear, again, again, that Qui-Gon can't risk anything, especially loosing Anakin. He has strong feelings over him and his 20,000 midi-chlorian count confirms his belief.
And he has to leave with the others on the broken ship, so he needs to hurry up.
Why did Vader rely on Boba to capture Han and Leia? Why have a third party finding out where the Falcon went to?
Why did he do that whole convoluted thing about hiding in Cloud City and freezing Han? Why not just capture them when they land and torture them to bait out Luke and that's it?
Why even have Cloud City? They could have been captured in the asteroid and it would end exactly the same.
>needs to leave in a hurry
> the script spends all this time with fucking watto of all things
Admit that there is probably a tighter way to do the watto stuff that doesn't come off as a waste of time. Pls, restore my faith in this board
In the end it's all about Jar Jar. The movie has obvious faults but they would probably be forgiven if it wasn't for Jar Jar. Also maybe because it was the first prequel, after the first prequel the people expected nothing but it wasn't the case for the Phantom Menace that had to compete directly with the OT.
>basic scripting principles
art's subjective friendo, just because your Screenwriting For Dummies subreddit says you need to cut off all extraneous details and have the plot be as streamlined, simple and boring as possible does not necessarily mean it's 100% true you dig?
Is /tv/ the most pathetic userbase on 4chan? The contrarian mental gymnastics regarding Star Wars: TFA is incredible and at the same time absolutely loathsome.
The constant denial, backtracking and moving the goalposts.
>"TFA will be shit! Fucking Jew Jew Abrams, fucking nigger main character, fucking SJWs! People won't accept this! It will be worse than the prequels and a total flop!"
>Trailer drops. Record pre-sales, screenings booked out months in advance. Hype incredibly high.
>"I-it'll still be a flop! Guaranteed to be shit! Phantom Menace sold well too before people realised it was shit! N-nigger character!"
>TFA releases. 5 star reviews, record opening day. People love based Johnny B's performance, and he's very well received.
>"o-ok it might not be as bad as we thought, but it's still not going to beat Jurassic World! Disney are finished!"
>Beats Jurassic World, despite being released in off-season and no Chinese release.
>"J-just wait until based RLM eviscerates it for being A New Hope ripoff in a Mr Plinkett review! You'll f-fucking see then Starfags!"
>Mike loves it. RLM approve and think it has saved the Star Wars franchise from the prequels.
>"FUCKING SHIT FILM, MARY SUE JEW SHIT. PREQUEL LOVE THREAD. WHO FUCKING LOVES ATTACK OF THE CLONES? I DO. REVENGE OF THE SITH WAS BETTER THAN ROTJ. BASED GEORGE LUCAS. WELL AT LEAST TFA WON'T BEAT AVATAR
The mouthbreathing basement dwellers who strive to be contrarian have been backed into a corner really, they started so verbose. So confident that the film would be a flop, not break any records and would be panned by critics. Slowly as TFA has BTFO them on every conceivable level, they've been reduced to adopting some bizarre cult-like contrarian attitude to the prequels, proclaiming them as underrated gems, and trying to push some kind of narrative where if TFA doesn't beat Avatar, it's somehow failed, despite already being a record breaking movie and saving Star Wars.
and this couldn't be established through a single bet?
>It's clear, again, again, that Qui-Gon can't risk anything, especially loosing Anakin
and yet he LITERALLY wagers on him and then puts him in a death race. How does that fit, at all, with your interpretation of the scene?
What was Qui Gon's plan if Anakin lost? or exploded? Is that when he planned to just threaten Watto?
> RLM must be behind this!
Did they even mention the script when talking about the Watto stuff?
True, except in this case its correct. You're being subjective when you say you like it, but objectively from a screenwriting standpoint there is a much tighter way to do that scene.
>objectively from a screenwriting standpoint there is a much tighter way to do that scene.
Again, you could nitpick almost any movie in this way,
This is not something that justifies the irrational hatred surrounding the movie.
Boba is a very minor character that only retroactively became important from the prequels.
He's just a gun for hire who gets eaten by the giant sand vagina on Jedi. Greedo in cool armor,
phasma except he did stuff
In terms of scripting, Qui-Gon doesn't have a choice, anon. It's been confirmed that Watto has the part Qui-Gon needs, and Watto also owns Anakin, who interests Qui-Gon as well.
Even though it may seem like Lucas stretched out the Tatooine scenes because of the build up to the podracing sequence, we do feel what the characters are feeling. They've been stranded there for a while. Meanwhile Naboo is under siege, and Sidious sent Maul to hunt down the Jedi and the Queen.
>This is not something that justifies the irrational hatred surrounding the movie.
you're moving the goalposts now, nobody ever said it was
If you want a broader explanation, I think this pretty much covers it >>64471705
Its not nitpicking, we're talking about that specific scene anon. There are plenty of scenes that work, and some that could have gone through a few more rewrites. This feels like one of those, but Luke and Vadar's encounter at the end of Empire is pretty perfect.
And who is talking about the irrational hate for the movie here? We're talking about how retarded this scene is
You autists don't even realize the first "bet" is not a bet, it's just COLLATERAL because they were broke as fuck and needed Watto to pay the entry fee.
The bet thing is entirely separate.
I blame this on RedditLetterMedia effectively rewriting the scenes to make a misleading "funny" review.
>In terms of scripting, Qui-Gon doesn't have a choice, anon.
He went to one goddamn shop
He couldn't shopped around and find somebody willing to exchange credits?
Or exchanged the ship or a smaller, functional one?
Qui-Gon is a blank character, he has no personality at all.
The trade dispute could've been interesting if explored correctly, but it's all an uninteresting mess, confusing and boring.
I have to say that I liked Phantom Meance more than the other two, but they are still bad.
>He went to one goddamn shop
>He couldn't shopped around and find somebody willing to exchange credits?
Or exchanged the ship or a smaller, functional one?
"And no one else has a T-14 hyperdrive, I promise you that."
you speak of scripting and miss the most blatantly obvious line in the movie that clarifies Qui-Gon's predicament.
You speak of wasting time on Tatooine, but scouting around will only prolong the sequence.
>Doesn't say anything that isn't subjective.
and subjective elements inform people's opinions of the movie?
I'm sure you enjoy it for entirely subjective reasons too. That doesn't invalidate your opinion.
>You speak of wasting time on Tatooine, but scouting around will only prolong the sequence.
instead lets wait overnight and go to an elaborate death race
No need to shop around. Watto said he has the only part on the planet, and why would he lie about that.
Are you joking? Please tell me you're joking. That line was to end that question of "Why can't Qui-Gon go somewhere else?" and to focus on Watto and Anakin.
It's clear to me that you have no idea how scripting works. Just stop dude.
He's the embodiment of a space monk, senpai
Just because he has a relaxed and understated style it doesn't mean he has less personality.
I bet you loved the incessant capeshit quips in TFA.
>dipshit prequel fans get called out
>hurrr durr ur just parrotting opinions
A rebel, lives by his own rules, and does things his own way, ignoring the Jedi way and the council. He gives no shits and is determined to come atop victorious. He's also over confident in his own abilities, which results in his downfall as he squares off against Maul.
You're joking if you think that is good writing. Watto says he has the only part, so Qui Gon HAS to wait there, so he can meet Anakin and get that part.
Its literally Watto's word and you're telling me that is sufficient writing?
Is this bait? Whats happening here?
It was already explained why the betting scene is not convoluted and "unnecessary" and it mostly boils down to RLM basically complaining about things that didn't happen (there weren't two bets).
everything is an opinion
the only objective elements of TPM are the runtime and the aspect ratio.
You dumb faggots have a very loose grasp of the difference between subjective and objective
Did I say that was good writing? Where did I say that? Instead of putting words in my mouth, you should see that Lucas intentionally put that line in there to end that question and to focus on Watto, who owns Anakin. Good writers know how to avoid those situations, but even then good writers also have to go along with it when they can't figure anything else out.
What Watto says in the narrative is the word of god in this case, because characters don't have the room to say otherwise or speak freely because of time restriction. Screenwriters have two hours to tell a story and to not fuck around. Of course Watto could say "go over there," but what's the point of that? What will that do other than prolong the sequence?
No it's not bait. I'm only addressing your stupidity.
>It opens a way for Anakin to be free and leave the planet.
>It shows how much does Qui Gon trust Anakin.
and you couldn't have done this with a single bet? You're missing the point entirely
You're at about a 9.
We need you to dial that back to a 4.
Hey anon, go and watch Thank You For Not Smoking. There's a hilarious scene in which Nick Naylor and that Hollywood guy decide to cover up a question with "thank goodness we invented so and so!" It's so true.
It's just scripting 101 in those cases.
>Good writers know how to avoid those situations, but even then good writers also have to go along with it when they can't figure anything else out.
>What Watto says in the narrative is the word of god in this case, because characters don't have the room to say otherwise or speak freely because of time restriction. Screenwriters have two hours to tell a story and to not fuck around. Of course Watto could say "go over there," but what's the point of that? What will that do other than prolong the sequence?
>No it's not bait. I'm only addressing your stupidity.
You have the goddamn nerve to call someone else stupid
Why even have Watto? Just make the dealings offscreen and have Anakin race for them for the money they need.
Or even better: Instead of needing another convoluted character like his mother just make him an orphan so when Qui-Gon finds out about him they just leave the planet with the money he got from scavenging parts.
No convoluted betting, no convoluted shopping, no convoluted racing and no convoluted mother.
Just a simple streamlined plot, fat-free.
>I don't know screenwriting, but I will shitpost anyway to defend myself!: The Post
kek. Watto would tell Qui-Gon to take a hike. Now way would he agree without a prior bet in place. Do you even understand this simple concept?
Anon's TPM version:
>Qui-Gon: Obi-Wan, I sense something. A boy is stranded on that desert world. We must go!
>*They go and land*
>Anakin: Thanks for picking me up!
>Qui-Gon: You are very strong in the Force
>Qui-Gon: To Coruscant!
why even have the podracing scene? what does podracing have to do with the trade dispute? Just have a silent movie style caption card explaining who anakin is, and how Qui Gon bought him some time earlier.
Absolutely no way anybody could get confused.
Turning Anakin into space Jesus was ridiculous. Jake Lloyd was also horribly miscast. They needed an actor that was at least four years older to make it even remotely believable.
> Watto is telling the truth about having the only part because the script needs him to. Everything happens the way it happens because Qui Gon needs to meet Anakin and there is absolutely no way it could have been handled better with less convenience and coincidenses
> Good writers still write themselves into corners and have to just go with it
> you are not an incredible faggot who "knows" screenwriting
>Anon, look man, they have to look elsewhere. Forget about Watto owning Anakin, why trust his word in the first place? Let's have the characters roam around and then go back when they decide that Watto is bluffing. AND not to mention that Watto owns Anakin! Ingenious!
It's time to go outside and play with your neighborhood friends, anon.
>and the trade dispute
The trouble with the trade dispute is that it's really not a very compelling way to start off the saga, nor does it particularly lead to anything interesting before the film is over. If it were somehow shown to lead directly into the formation of the Separatist movement and the incitement of the Clone Wars, that would be one thing - but it's just wrapped up neatly and the "real" story doesn't pick up for another ten years.
In general, the biggest problem of TPM, and the Prequels as a whole, is the story composition. It's clear that Lucas just kind of winged it and didn't give a lot of thought to the movies as a whole when he started writing Episode I.
Why do you need a villain? The point of the scene is for Anakin to display his innate piloting skills. Hes fucking ten literally they are all villains as far as he's concerned.
If he were older I would understand
I've been watching the original films, one a day, this past week.
I enjoyed IV and V, VI was pretty good but flawed and I found TPM to be completely pointless, hollow and devoid of any tension or excitement.
There's absolutely no way to showcase the Clone Wars and Palpatine's rise to power without political intrigue. Lucas should've rewritten the whole treaty thing and focus on the Trade Federation's subjugation of Naboo, with the Galactic Senate debating on whether or not to step in and mediate the whole debacle. The people of Naboo are killed/dying and the senate isn't doing a damn thing about it forces the Queen to take action and go to Coruscant, but they have to crash land on Tatooine. And so on...
Just another rewrite would've done TPM well.
>STOP COMPLAINING ABOUT THE SCRIPT
>THIS IS HOW STUPID YOU SOUND
>WHY ISN'T ANYBODY RESPONDING? ILL POST IT AGAIN
> Listen Anon, the script makes sense and completely works as is, and in no way could have fine tune some of the weaker aspects because, quite frankly, we got the scene to work. Qui Gon has met Anakin and really thats all that matters, who cares of we meander about Tattoine in the second act of the movie? The script works!
I'd say the same to you but I doubt you have any friends
Yes, because all criticisms are subjective.
I'm just saying that consider how strongly I engaged with the first three I find it pretty shocking that I felt absolutely nothing from TPM.
>Lucas should've rewritten the whole treaty thing and focus on the Trade Federation's subjugation of Naboo, with the Galactic Senate debating on whether or not to step in and mediate the whole debacle. The people of Naboo are killed/dying and the senate isn't doing a damn thing about it forces the Queen to take action and go to Coruscant, but they have to crash land on Tatooine. And so on...
This is pretty close to how it happened.
>Anon, I elect to ignore even the most simplest of narratives and decide to shitpost about lean scripting and basic script principles! I know what what I'm talking about! Look mom! I'm contributing!
But without treaties and legalization of the whole thing. The TF decides to invade Naboo because of trading disputes (maybe show this), and assumes control over the world. Palpatine is playing both sides, of course, as his first step in his rise to power.
It was a capeshit movie, it wasn't even Star Wars
You're basically saying that Batman is better than The Phantom Menace, you can't compare them
Trying to say that TFA is 'better' than any of the actual Star Wars movies is a category error
You can stop.
/tv/ is overrun with underage retards. They will never admit that they were wrong as fuck.
It's a great movie. Everybody with a working brain knows that.
Arguing with underage retards is completely pointless.
They were on an age of peace, if it immediately started with pew pew lasers it wouldn't contrast well with the whole "sheev is bringing the galaxy into chaos" thing.
Also it's to mirror the original trilogy which first starts with the bad guys being the top dogs and then being defeated in the last movie.
Meanwhile the prequels start with the good guys in command and then being defeated in the last movie.
It's pure pottery.
There are more effective ways to display his skill as a pilot than an overlong scene devoid of tension.
Luke didn't require a scene like that in IV despite his claims of being an amazing pilot. He proved himself when he needed to.
and every race needs its Dick Dastardly
Pod Racing scene contributed nothing to the plot, but it was pretty exhilarating and sold a lot of toys and video games. There's no point in complaining about it.
>It's a great movie.
>look how superior and exquisite my aged and matured opinions are! Now tally-ho, I'm off to discuss superior motion pictures on that infinitely more gentlemanly of sites, Reddit!
Yeah, you need to watch it in order for it to make sense. Palpatine needs the Queen to sign the treaty in order to make the TF's invasion legal. Without it, they have no leverage and are illegally doing bad things. There's more, but that's the simple understanding of it.
>They were on an age of peace, if it immediately started with pew pew lasers it wouldn't contrast well with the whole
The first scene has pew pew lazers and a full scale invasion. Enough with your shitty mental gymnastics.
I agree op
Besides Jar Jar and the casting of Anakin, I think the movie is pretty fun and enjoyable flick.
People are just followers and hate on the prequels because "hurr muh jar jar."
I think that because Anakin is much younger than Luke was, its important to establish earlier on that he is a capable pilot, rather than that skill manifesting itself without no set up which would have been jarring.
Helps establish Anakin somewhat, exciting action scene too. I'm not a particular fan of it but its probably one of the better if not most memorable scene from TPM
>Sebulba and Vader are of equal importance
Obviously it's subjective, but at no point did I feel like the outcome was anything other than obvious.
Also, all this anger over children's movies is hilarious.
You wouldn't see this kind of shitflinging in a thread about Winnie the Pooh or Toy Story. Amazing.
>better than VI.
Vader's presence is felt throughout the film even when he's not on screen. Sebulba exists in the moment. He isn't necessary to the overall story, or trilogy. Vader is. Sebulba is there as a brief obstacle for a character to overcome.
Vader is an imposing threat to the entire galaxy while Sebulba is there for a kid to prove he's quite good at being a pilot.
Background competitors are not villains and don't bring tension, a named character that directly tries to fuck Anakin up is a villain that brings tension.
If there was no Sebulba you autists would complain that the pod racing is too soulless and had no tension.
Threads like this make me wonder why I still come here.
I'm 27 and this is how I spend my free time? Reading a bunch of posts written by people getting mad over a children's movie?
I don't know who's more pathetic. You for posting it or me for reading it.
Hey moron, Sebulba is the main source of tension. Without Sebulba, Anakin would win. With Sebulba, it's a tough race. He's that good, as seen through character expressions and dialogue.
That's like saying the tension shouldn't be coming from beating Vader and Sheev, it should be coming from trying to defeat the Empire and by extension freeing the galaxy.
You absolutely NEED a villain if you want to bring tension, you should be complaining that the prequels don't have enough strong villains, not that is has one.
Listen, this podracing scene establishes Anakin as a great pilot, as before this we would have no reason to believe he would automatically win, nor should he since he ia a kid in what is a very dangerous race. Why is Sebulba required to raise the tension when the tension is already there by the context of the scene alone?
Of course Anakin wants his freedom, but he has to beat Sebulba in order to fulfill that. Therefore, Sebulba is the main source of tension. It's like racing or playing a video game of racing. You have to beat the #1 guy in order to win the whole thing.
You misunderstand, the context of the relationship between Luke and Vader are obviously much deeper with a lot more going on than Anakin and Sebulba. Sebulba is less a villain and more a road block, which is.unnecessary since the whole situation of the podrace is a roadblock in and of itself
Because Sebulba is a dirty cheater that sabotaged his pod and wants to personally fuck Anakin up because he's the human underdog.
Sebulba represents the winner, the villain that Anakin needs to personally defeat him to win the race.
He isn't just a background character with no personal connection.
>Of course Anakin wants his freedom, but he has to beat Sebulba in order to fulfill that.
No, he has to win the race in order to fulfill that. See what I mean by saying he's unnecessary? Maybe if it were a one on one race we'd be having a different discussion
But the stakes are high enough as it is without spending time setting up what is an unnecessary character.
Like I don't think people even remember Sebulba for the most part. They definitely remember the race though.
Seems like something that the script could have done without
I agree with >>64474400 though. Sebulba raises the stakes. You mention Anakin's objective, but without an obstacle in the way? Anakin mentioned that "he's the only Human who can do it" and it's shown that he's a gifted podracer and mechanic, so there's no doubts that he could finish the race. Put Sebulba in front of him, and things get interesting.
In IV Vader has no direct connection with Luke and Tarkin even less.
So why do they exist? Because the hero needs to fight against SOMEONE.
Without a villain conflict doesn't exist, you can't have the hero fighting against a broad concept of evil, there's no emotional tension in that.
This is writing 101.
But the race is already interesting and those are the stakes. Its establishing him as a pilot, he can say he can do it but we don't know til the race is over.
And sure you can add Sebulba and be like "theres the reigning champ" or whatever but the scene works fine without him.
reading through comments, and I don't think Sebulba needs to be a deep character, but he's been established that he's a podracing regular and always wins. Anakin needs to beat his ass now.
i liked the prequels though. evenn though your get is dope, there is still no point about this arguing. literally nobody will change their mind, everybody will just stroke their ego and thats it
Yeah, I do see what you mean regarding the track. There's a number of obstacles, but it's tough to get into that because of Anakin being the Chosen One and knows what to do when things go sour.
He develops one after Vader kills ObiWan though, whereas Sebulba immediately disappears after the race.
Villains, as you define them, are not 100% necessary for every scene involving tension
Yeah, Vader was pretty pointless in A New Hope, and he's only there to present a threat and to kill Obi-Wan, which creates more conflict in Luke.
You can say the same thing with Sebulba in which he's pointless but poses as a threat, which creates conflict in Anakin.
Sebulba disappears because he has been defeated and the pod racing arc is over, him NOT disappearing would be weird and unnecessary.
You didn't explain why villains are not necessary to create tangible tension.
Yeah, that's a given, though. We know he's going to win, but how will he? Sebulba also presents an antagonistic podracer who has a character, unlike the others who are just faceless racers. It's not that engaging.
Without Sebulba, You can root for Anakin, but it will be empty 2bh.
Nah, the personification of the Empire is the Death Star itself and Tarkin's iron grip over it. Vader is a mere henchman, who only follows orders. Releasing TIE Fighters to fight the X-Wings was a reaction. The only time he took active initiative is when "several fighters have broken off the main group."
My point wasnt that it was weird that he didn't stick around, but rather that he was there at all in first place.
Villains are all well and good, I think its important to have them developed and realized rather than shoehorned in unnecessarily
This is actually kind of a brillaint point and one I hadn't really considered. I wasn't thinking about the pod race as a race at all, but rather as part of Anakin's characterization. I don't think Sebulba adds any tension really to the scene, but rather functions as someone to beat so that the audience can enjoy the victory at the end of the race. I suppose in that sense he has value and function.
>This is actually kind of a brillaint point and one I hadn't really considered. I wasn't thinking about the pod race as a race at all, but rather as part of Anakin's characterization. I don't think Sebulba adds any tension really to the scene, but rather functions as someone to beat so that the audience can enjoy the victory at the end of the race. I suppose in that sense he has value and function.
Thanks, anon. I'll say that, that's the only way to see Sebulba, but I still think, by extension, he presents tension because Anakin has to beat him. Not just the track itself.
Do they mention him at all?
Yeah, I got my head pretty far up my own ass, since my initial criticisms were with the scene with Watto and somehow got to debating Sebulba.
I still maintain that he isn't there to add tenaion, or rather, a substantial amount if tension. Just someone for our hero to beat
Well you still don't seem to understand that qui gon changed his bet because he discovered anakin is strong with the force, not because of sebulba. He settled with just anakin because training him was his main goal.
Doesn't he make a cameo in Clones/Revenge?
I think I saw him in a recent rewatch, but he's washed up as fuck.
Probably from the loss itself, because he was a sabotaging asshole.
Never really got the hate, sure the thing is flawed but of all the three prequel movies it's the only one that somehow feels and looks the same as the original trilogy.
TFA is rather worthless though.
Qui Gon is the opposite of afraid, he takes advantage of Watto's overconfidence in Sebulba
he also throws his (anakin's) pod into bet, but the winnings are on watto's end
It's weird, and while it was a straightforward plot mover (all the audience really needs to know is that anakin needs to win) it could have been used to illustrate character traits. Qui Gon manipulates the dice with the force, for instance, which is a good opportunity to emphasize that Qui Gon is a bit of a maverick. Instead, there's no distinct impression, or emphasisl, that Jedi would disapprove over fixing chance games
Dumb shit fucking tards say.
>Le rofl le cakes le xD, Qui-Gon is an idiot for taking a boy over a girl, what is he gay? xDD
>Why didn't he take both?
>Communications disruption doesn't mean an invasion repubtards
I for the first time wanted to choke slam my best friend till he stopped moving.
I love it too, ever since I was 12 and first saw it. I never stopped liking it.
My favorite parts have always been the senate scenes. The idea of an galactic senate representing 1000s of systems is so wacky and great, I wish we could've seen the other planets discussing their own problems.
I hate Attack of the Clones though. Worst use of CGI in the PT and no senate scenes.
Revenge of the Sith is almost a redemption, but it moves too fast and lacks any real tension like the Pod Racing scene. We get the space opera/blitzball scene though which is cool.
Yeah I don't get why people hated it so much. It wasn't that bad and I think the only negative thing about it was JarJar and
SPINNING IS A GOOD TRICK along with Darth Maul's lackluster death
>it was before Lucas discovered he could just green screen everything
This. II and III are absolutely ridiculous in that regard, it's like the most mundane shot had to be green screened for the sake of it.
Does it annoy anyone else that Disney has fallen so fully for the
>le prequels are shit
maymay started by that neckbeard on YouTube and we'll never see an anthology film set in the Old Republic (easily the most fully realised world of the entire series)?
There's a brief moment as watto rotates the die in his fingers you can see there's an uneven distribution of colour, but he's outwardly showing only a certain amount of sides
that detail hasn't really needed to come up though
of course Watto was cheating, look at his expression when he mentions he'll leave it up to a die roll, and his total shock when it doesn't go his way
he knew Qui Gon used a jedi trick and had outcheated his dishonesty
When I was a kid I always remembered the chance cube being fixed but I just watched the scene frame by frame and apparently there are 3 blue, 2 red and 1 white when he's holding it and 3 red, 2 blue and 1 unseen when he throws it.
Shit makes no sense.
Hmm, you're right, but I think that's an oversight in that one scene.
>Blue, it's the boy.
>Red, his mother.
What would happen if it landed on white? You never see the white side again when they show it rolling, but there are clearly more reds than blues.
You, me or nobody, is gonna hit as hard as life. But ain't about how hard you hit... It's about how hard you can get hit, and keep moving forward... how much you can take, and keep moving forward.
Nigger the movie ranks in the 50s on rt. It's a bad movie in every regard.
It's a bad action movie
It's a bad starwars movie
It's a bad kids movie
It's a bad political drama
It literally can't be enjoyed by any metric other than to laugh at how bad it is. It's basically a good rift trax movie.
>It has the same Lucas voice that's apparent in A New Hope
Dead-eyed actors delivering boring dialogue while standing around or leaning on something. Some kid playing race cars for 30 minutes. A cartoon slapstick rabbit. Mind-numbing, choreographed lightsaber dancing for forever. Disinterested jedi Mary Sues who face zero challenges. Trade dispute mediation. Sterile CGI.
Not sure which fucking New Hope you were watching. Nice b8 m8
THE POINT IS THAT, FOR FUCK'S SAKE WHO GIVES A SHIT. You know what you never see in good movies? You know what never happened in the orig trig? Vague betting and subsequent cheating as a means of conflict resolution. It's a bunch of mindless boring shit that should and would have been fucking deleted if they bothered doing a second draft or bringing in a second writer.
How you feel about Phantom Menace really depends on how you feel about Star Wars.
>i hate star wars
You won't like it.
>i love star wars, it's an important piece of cinema and jedi was awful kiddie shit, they need to take these movies super seriously like i do, i know everything there is about the expanded universe and own all the toys, empire is the best despite being super boring and tedious
You really won't like it.
>i love star wars, they're really fun films and i enjoy the adventure
You'll like it.
Hating The Phantom Menace is for dumb nerds who propped Star Wars up to being this perfect thing. They cry and cry about Phantom Menace and the prequels ruining their childhood. Some of those losers even made an hours long video series about why the prequels are the worstest movies ever made.
In truth, Phantom Menace is a fun little film with flaws, just like every other movie in the series.
There's definitely an old world American speaking in George Lucas's writing. He sounds like an Emersonian at times. He's not the best writer, but his characters are important to him.
>compassionate but not in the typical jedi way. He's only interested in a greater good "big picture" deal.
>in the same way he'll lie, cheat, and use tricks to complete his mission.
He half heartedly tries but you can tell he doesn't really give a fuck about her. If not he would have told Coruscant about this planet that was ignoring their anti-slavery laws.
The fact that there is a debate about it at all means that it sure as shit isn't Not vague. And I don't give a shit if it's "morally admissible" or not (if it is, why not just fucking steal the part?). How was it not "morally admissible" to find add another boring fucking bet to save his mom?
The point is that HOLY SHIT WHO FUCKING CARES? THERE ARE SO MANY BETTER WAYS TO MOVE THE PLOT FORWARD THAN SOME BULLSHIT CONTRIVED "BET" WITH AN ARABIC BUG. Not to mention that the stakes of the bet obviously don't fucking matter because Qui Gon will just cheat if things don't go his way.
>He's not the best writer
No fucking shit.
>but his characters are important to him.
Too bad his actors, or their acting, clearly aren't.
Even if this was an accurate interpretation, his characters in ANH had personalities and were interesting and there was a level of fun, interpersonal conflict between them. Ain't none of that shit in the prequels.
There's a "debate" because a certain internet reviewer decided to mislead people by building a bogus strawman to bash a non-issue in a movie he didn't like.
If you watched the movie you would know it's not vague or convoluted at all.
ONCE AGAIN. The fact that the "bet" was convoluted or vague is a side note. The point is that IT'S A FUCKING STUPID FUCKING PLOT POINT THAT MADE THE MOVIE WORSE FOR BEING THERE.
Exactly. Sebulba didn't matter. I had to look up who this character was. The story would have been as effective (and bad) if Anikin had to slug it out with unnamed pod racers.
Being that the pod race was a rip-off of Ben Hur's chariot race, why don't we compare the character of Sebulba with Mesala. There was a real rivalry between Ben Hur and Mesala and it made the chariot race much more interesting, much more intense. Viewers really got emotionally involved in the chariot race, really wanted Ben Hur to win, and really wanted Mesala to get his just deserts.
Sebulba? Most of the audience is wondering, "Who the hell is he and which one of those cartoon characters is he?"
Roger Ebert isn't always right. In his original review of The Good, the Bad, the Ugly, it gave it either 3/5 or 4/5 stars. He admitted years later that he let the fact that it was a spaghetti western influence his rating. He said something like, "I was watching a 5/5 movie but, because I knew it was a spaghetti western, I told myself that it couldn't be 5/5 and thus I rated it lower."
This is false.
Sebulba appears in several scenes bullying Anakin, sabotaging his pod and being a general meanie.
Watto also says how he's the best racer that always win.
The rivalry and context is there, whether it's good or bad is entirely subjective.