/osr/ - Old School Renaissance

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>>55358767
'Tis a silly question and I shan't answer it

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>>55358767
M-U

Has anyone here heard of or used Whitehack? Thoughts on it?

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>>55358767
Cleric.

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Methinks I'd play a fighter since that's the only class I ever play anyway.

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>>55358767
>If you could only play one class for the rest of your gaming career, which would it be?
Cleric

>>55358880
Whitehack is interesting. It's one of my favorite OSR-adjacent systems, though I would struggle to call it even a heavily house-ruled retroclone. While it reflects some of the trappings of D&D-likes (it's got six stats, hit points, levels, 20-sided dice), it's very lightweight and generic-feeling as far as rules go.

Where it really shines are in its classes. They're less about representing fictional archetypes than they represent different types of player creative input and interacting with the game world.

The Deft's greatest strength is their association with various "groups"; one might think of these as Fate-like aspects, which the player can use to define certain parts of the character and invoke them to gain an advantage. These could be things like an animal companion, membership in a thieves' guild, part of a fantasy race, affinity with a certain god, or practically anything else you can imagine.

The Strong gets a lot of straight forward, mechanically defined combat abilities. They also can "absorb" a single power from a defeated enemy, again, limited by the player's imagination (for example, coating your sword in the poison of a giant spider, or maybe supernaturally absorbing the defeated enemy's essence).

The Wise get to use miracles. There's no huge appendix of spells, instead miracles are created by the player using a few keywords and their power level and cost (in HP) is negotiated with the GM when they're used.

Maybe you can think of it as either a kind of heavily rules-bounded freeform designed to focus your spontaneous creativity on specifically D&D-like fantasy adventuring, or a D&D-like framework that sets up some specific arenas where you're encouraged to think creatively rather than let the rules drag you along. If you look at it either of those ways, even if it's not your main D&D-like game, I think reading it and/or playing a couple sessions could really add a lot of "creative thinking" tools to a player's skillset.

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Bump

What OSR system would you recommend to someone who has only played 5e?

>>55359433
OSRIC. Sink or swim.

>>55359433
Basic Fantasy RPG is what I use. It has ascending AC so it'd probably be a smooth conversion for you.

>>55359433
BFRPG is good, check out Dungeon Crawl Classics as well. Maybe check out Adventurer Conqueror King.

I'm currently making a roleplaying game where, to sum up the lore as quick as possible, you go into fallout shelter vaults to drink alcohol that mutates you and makes you stronger. The idea being that once the whole party is drunk, you could just wake back up out of the dungeon.

However my issue is how to work on this if people drink the first thing they find; should there be a mechanic where that player is basically just drunk and stupid for the remainder of the dungeon after they get their new super power? Should they wait until they all get some booze, or should the party have to actually roleplay leaving the dungeon instead of doing the whole 'black out drunk and return home' thing I think works well?

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>>55359433

Just play 5e and give experience points for treasure recovered/spent. Once you add that mechanic, and tell the players that they don't get experience from fighting and should try to get in and get out, the OSR feeling is achieved. 5e and B/X are practically the exact same game once you do that.

>>55359433
>What OSR syste-
ACKS, it's the best clone, I dare say it's better than the original game

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Hi, guys - posted this in the last thread but I want to ask again in this one.
I'm looking for thoughts on Torchbearer. Do any of you have strong opinions on it? I have been getting into dungeon synth music recently and I'm looking for something that's grimy in that same way.

Basically, I'm looking for something that doesn't put trying to trick the rules front and center. Focus on exploration. Looking to make a choice between Torchbearer and Moldvay Basic or BFRPG

Are there any favorite homerules you guys use for ACKs?

>>55360020

We used DCC spell system in my last ACKs game.

>>55360020
>Are there any favorite homerules you guys use for ACKs?
No, the game is already perfect

>>55360045
>DCC spell system
How does that work?

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How do you determine how much things should cost when players buy their starting equipment?

>>55360175
Most rulebooks have a prices section don't they?

>>55360194

I'm making my own. Which is why I'm asking.

What are some good design principles?

>>55360318
I suppose if you don't want to just use the same prices as everyone else, you could do research on the real prices of things in medieval times.

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>>55360318
https://coinsandscrolls.blogspot.ca/2017/03/currency-in-osr-games.html

I'm a big fan of 1gp = 10sp = 100cp, and 1cp = $1 modern American dollar = 1 denier

http://medieval.ucdavis.edu/120D/Money.html

And it works within 1 order of magnitude, so it's pretty good. It's very handy for estimating totals.

>>55360144

I'm not really sure what you are asking. We use the DCC spell system in lieu of the ACKS spell system.

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>>55360386
This pricelist is also useful. https://web.archive.org/web/20110419191117/http://www.maisonstclaire.org/resources/pricelist/pricelist.html

>>55360393
I think he's asking how DCC spells work generally.

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>>55359445
>>55359470
Why BFRPG instead of Labyrinth Lord?

>>55360506
>races as classes
>descending AC
no thanks

>>55360386

Is there any particular reason you felt the need to shill your own blog, again, with something not relevant to what was asked?

Stop.

>>55360506
LL is technically a good system but Proctor borked it by stretching level advancement to 20 and organizing info badly.

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>>55360577
>with something not relevant to what was asked?
>>55360318
>I'm making my own. Which is why I'm asking.
>What are some good design principles?

It's... literally about the design principles of a price list?

I guess I felt the need to post it because it could either answer anon's question, or provide some useful lists and context for designing a price list. I forgot that we're supposed to bicker and snipe at each other on /tg/, not try to be helpful. My bad.

>>55360640
Not the guy you're replying to, but why not post a blog that is actually well put-together and helpful then?

>>55360577
>>55360640
Yeah dude what the fuck? He aanswered your question...

Normally I hate that fucking prick and his endless shilling. But in this case the article is actually okay and relevant to what was asked

What types of adventures do you guys generally run at your tables? Do you just do all dungeon crawl, all the time? Do you do quests and more modern type stories? Political intrigue? Sandbox? Tell me.

>>55360757
Because he doesn't get ad money from a blog thats well put together

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>>55360781
hehehe

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>>55360757
>but why not post a blog that is actually well put-together and helpful then?
>>55360766
>Normally I hate that fucking prick and his endless shilling.

The constant bitching about Skerples is 100x more annoying than Skerples has ever been.

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>>55360612
> borked it by stretching level advancement to 20 and organizing info badly.
Well, BFRPG also goes up to level 20 too, and the table of contents looks similar to the LL table of contents.

>>55360819
hey skerples what's up?

>>55360840
>>55360540
LL uses a horrible AC system stolen from a naval wargame and uses an outdated race system as well.

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>>55360868
>outdated

>>55361049
If you think OSR is "outdated" in general then you really don't understand it at all. OSR just works. Most of it, anyway. Things like descending AC and race-as-class are just outdated though, and the argument of
>b-but D&D did it
isn't actually an argument at all.

>>55361069
How is race-as-class as "outdated" as descending AC?

>>55361191
When did I say they were equally outdated?

>>55360868
>plays 30-year old games and clones of 30-year old games
>complains about stuff being outdated
What did he mean by this?

>>55361229
>>55361069

>>55360506
BFRPG is easier to obtain copies of, cheaper, and the whole thing is free. It also makes a separation of race & class and uses ascending AC. There are still some negatives you should be aware of before jumping in though.

First, BFRPG is laid out like absolute shit. It lists the character building within the first two chapters, then the spells smack dab in the middle of the book organized in a questionable manner, and then it gets to adventuring and most of the rules you'd actually WANT to flip to in the middle of a session if you need it. It requires you to bookmark it somehow, digital or physical.

For some reason, the guy who made it made the 1 GP = 1 XP rule optional and presented in the back of the book. I have no clue why anyone would ever play without this rule and why he would do that in a game where the only people who are playing are either oldfags who are savvy or completely new players. I did the math once, and in order for a fighter to get to level 2 without that rule, it would require him to kill 400 orcs. Attempting such a feat is not recommended.

Finally, if you go BFRPG, just keep in mind that the website has the extra classes listed out as separate supplements. If someone wants to play as a paladin or half-orc, you're gonna have to send them there and possibly print out those sheets so you can spot check rules.

Other than that though, BFRPG is fantastic for a first timer, but as you play more, I fully recommend moving up to OSRIC or outright AD&D 2e.

>>55361229
>>55361049
Terrible argument. The entire point of a retroclone is so you can copy the good shit about the old days and then update it with advances in game design. There's no good justification to keep sacred cows in place when you can always just pick up the actual old rulebooks and just play those instead. Why bother cloning?

>>55361340
This is precisely what I meant. No reason to bog down the future of OSR with stupid shit like descending AC.
Race-as-class is more of a preferential thing that I dislike, but I still call it outdated because it feels outdated to me.

>>55361358
What exactly do you not like about race as class? I really like it because I prefer to run Humanocentric games and demi-humans being as different from a fighter or rogue as a wizard is is something I really like.

>>55361413
I, too, much prefer mostly human games. But I feel that race-as-class needlessly limits character creation. I see your point that it is a way to keep humans more common than other races, but I think it's the wrong way to go about it.

>>55361448
So race as class limits people from playing Elf-Wzards or Elf-Clerics?

>>55361469
Or Elf-Fighters. I understand that the race-classes are versatile but it isn't the same. Like I said, it's just a preferential thing. I just dislike it as a mechanic. But I can see why somebody would like it, moreso now that you explained why you do.
captcha: tits aruba

>>55361501
So do you common have demi-human and non-human cities in your games? Because if you have multiple racial settlements/ multi-racial settlements I can see how codifying large portions of NPC's encountered into a single class could be disenchanting to players. In my games the rarity of elven enclaves is higher than dragons so for that reason I would want hoops to exist for the players to hop through if they wanted to play as one. I also think a big difference is the aesthetic/thematic elements of games, if other races are just star-trek shaded people with prosthetic then why not just simply have the human? How do you balance "uniqueness" of races to their "alienness"? or do you just ignore that as a Referee? not that there's anything wrong with that at all

>>55361582
I'm not going to pretend I'm super fluent in game design. I like how BFRPG handles it.

>>55361340
>The entire point of a retroclone is so you can copy the good shit about the old days and then update it with advances in game design.
No, the entire point of a retroclone is CLONE a RETRO game. If you want to add newschool stuff to that you're making a homebrew (or rather, shitbrew) and not a retroclone.

>>55361413
As the others have said, Race as Class limits your options, but I think the more important aspect here is it forces your narrative. Dwarves and halflings do not know magic. It's simply not an option to them. Therefore, there are now Dwarven clerics, no halfling mages, or even halfling thieves. Those are the purview of the humans only.

It's not even like in AD&D 1e where Race and Class were separated but limited. Dwarfs can't be clerics? Well fuck you, in my world they can. I have the rules Dwarfs, I have the rules for clerics, I'm just going to ignore this rule. You can't do that in LL or original basic, because there's nothing defining what makes a dwarf a dwarf as opposed to a fighter, or an elf and elf without being a magic user and fighter together.

>>55361747
>Dwarves and halflings do not know magic. It's simply not an option to them.
This is only true for PCs, however. OSR games insist on building NPCs as the GM deems fit without paying attention to chargen rules.

>>55361685
>No, the entire point of a retroclone is CLONE a RETRO game
Then your point is both retarded and without merit. Simply pick up the original Moldvey Dungeons & Dragons which is not only available quite freely on the internet, but even moralfags can purchase them from the current license holder themselves in pdf form. There's literally no point in considering this mind-numbing retarded statement any further.

>>55360816
Why even bother replying to trolls? This is pretty obviously 5e guy, asshurt that his bait earlier in the thread didn't get any (you)s.

>>55361772
It's hard to create a fun world and game for players when the narrative is not backed up by the mechanics or vice versa. Players become disquieted when they see an option that isn't available to them without any logic or reason, and it simply becomes unfair to the player. It's just basic game design 101.

>>55361290
>2e
A perfect post, and then you had to fuck it up on the very last word.

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I love how nobody in these threads even bothers defending descending AC, yet most OSR games have it just because
>muh D&D
Wait a minute... No, I don't love that, I fucking hate it.

>>55361829
The narrative is already at odds with the mechanics in OSR stuff. PCs will find NPCs with class levels that don't have a dungeoneering history, but PCs can only progress by going into dungeons and looting them.

>>55359445
>>55359470
How does Swords & Wizardry compare?

>>55361858
Pretty sure I've seen earnest defenses of descending AC here.

>>55361899
I honestly never have in the 2 months or so I've been in these threads.

>>55361884
>OSR
>GP=XP
>PCs will find NPCs with class levels that don't have a dungeoneering history, but PCs can only progress by going into dungeons and looting them.
What did he mean by this?

>>55361910
It was farther back than that but I'm sure. It was something revolving around how each number in descending AC meant a specific armor combination and how "elegant" that was, but I can't remember the exact wording.

>>55361936
God that sounds fucking retarded

>>55361858
I used to think that it was terrible, but I've recently started a campaign using it and it's honestly not as bad as I thought it would be. Goes about as quick in my experience as ascending, surprisingly enough. Maybe even quicker.

>3e and 5e kiddies trying to change the OSR
If that one guy spamming The Fantasy Trip couldn't do it, what chance do (You) have?

>>55362011
Defend descending AC. I fuckin dare you

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>>55362028
> Defend descending AC
Sure, but first explain why Gonnerman used descending AC in Iron Falcon after he had already written BFRPG.

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>>55362028
>sets a hard limit on AC instead of the infinitely scaling retardation of ascending AC
>in practice it's barely more complicated than ascending AC and BAB
>it's the standard used in almost all TSR D&D and OSR materials, making conversions to ascending AC pointless arithmetic
>it was good enough for 25 years of the franchise and all of TSR D&D
You ascending AC cucks are just 3.pf kiddies to lazy to learn a "new" mechanic. I bet you use feats too.

>>55362028
Going off the naval wargame point from last thread, descending does make sense. If, barring magic, plate+shield is the best defended you can be, it's perfectly reasonable to call that "First class armour," AKA AC 1. AC 2, therefore, is second class armour, and AC 3 third class and so on. It tells you, at a glance, without knowing that an unarmoured man is AC whatever, just how well defended your character or a monster is.

>>55361582
>If other races are just star-trek shaded people with prosthetic then why not just simply have the human?

Why is this opinion copied and pasted everywhere on /tg/? You seem to have some baggage that humans are somehow inherently superior to use in a setting then nonhumans.

What's wrong with having nonhumans, Star Trek like or otherwise? I like having different fantasy races to make the setting more fantastical feeling, but I don't like giving them powers or abilities too strange so they don't bypass normal human weaknesses. I can't use intelligent undead, avian fliers, golems, or anything like that. So all my races are roughly near human, with near human abilities.

I know at the end there you added 'not that there's anything wrong with that' but that doesn't make you immune to criticism. Mostly I'm complaining about other, more outspoken people who mirror your opinion however.

>>55362235
I'd say that it's because /osr/ is full of nerds like the rest of /tg/, and they want to stand out just like the rest. Since "traditional" fantasy is generic pseudomedieval realms where wandering parties of snowflake heroes are all over, everyone wants to do their own special thing - in /osr/'s case in particular, it's "gritty" fantasy where snowflake heroes are heavily discouraged, and non-humans are snowflakey by default.

>>55362127
>>sets a hard limit on AC instead of the infinitely scaling retardation of ascending AC
no because descending AC can just go to the negatives
>>in practice it's barely more complicated than ascending AC and BAB
not an argument. you're literally claiming it's "not that shitty, just a little bit"
>>it's the standard used in almost all TSR D&D and OSR materials, making conversions to ascending AC pointless arithmetic
so basically
>MUH D&D DID IT
>>it was good enough for 25 years of the franchise and all of TSR D&D
again,
>MUH D&D DID IT

>>55359433
Swords & Wizardry

>>55362286
Not him, but in the context of the OSR keeping mechanics similar has an actual tangible benefit in ease of conversion from TSR materials. The sacred cow meme doesn't really apply if you're using stuff made for the systems where the "sacred cows" were introduced

>>55361884
I was gonna call you retarded, but I think the other anon did it for me. There's also the problem with your story though. I have yet to see a single NPC in ANY adventure that has class levels and specifically ever says "has no dungeoneering history". I mean, seriously. List one. List an NPC from an official OSR adventure pre-3e that has class levels but specifically says they've never been inside a single dungeon. What adventure, what NPC and what page?

>>55361936
>>55361899
>>55361910
>>55362028

I not only remember, I've been in those arguments before. They basically surmount to nostalgia and stigma over the name "Class" as in "Class 8 Armor".

The only somewhat decent argument I've ever seen for descending AC is that because it relies on a chart, you just look at the chart and you quickly know what number on the d20 to roll above whereas ascending tends to encourage you to add it up every roll, but I find that to be a bit of a player problem as opposed to system.

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Guys...

>>55361858
>descending AC
>not a full-square attack grid w sub-modifier table

>>55362366
>I know! I'll just call it bait so I don't have to come up with an argument! Sheesh, that was close!

>>55362235
>>more fantastic feeling
I am genuinely confused by what you mean by this. Do you mean fantastic as in high fantasy like Final Fantasy or as in reinforcing a sense of wonderment that is other worldly? If it's the first case then I see nothing wrong with random races instead of humans.
>>humans are somehow inherently superior to use in a setting then nonhumans
I 100% do. The more encounters you have with the weird, the less weird the next thing is. In my experience as a Referee memorability is all about contrast. If there is a dragon on every mountain then it doesn't matter that it has 12 Hit Dice and breathes flame, it becomes a generic beast and loses it's "magic". Encountering magical creatures exists outside of ecology and logic. They are rare, and seeing one itself is a significant thing. The majority of encounters should then have a sense of normalcy and involve figures that wouldn't shatter one's world view (Humans and Animals). I think that "final fantasy" high fantasy settings cannot be fantastic because they are so polluted by weird stuff that it dilutes the weird. But that's just my opinion and I'm not gonna tell you that you're having bad wrong fun at your table.

>>55362360
Okay, Tork from HHQ1 Fighter's Challenge (what I had under my nightstand at hand) is a level 2 Fighter that is explicitly described as just the local village bully that sells fish for a living and just gets in a lot of bar brawls. Page 3 in my Spanish-translated copy, if you need it.

>2E isn't true OSR
Let me preempt your goalpost moving by saying that no official D&D edition is OSR in the first place. They weren't trying to retroclone anything. they just were.

>>55362286
>no because descending AC can just go to the negatives
-10 is a hard limit.

>you're literally claiming it's "not that shitty, just a little bit"
Ascending AC: Roll 1d20, add or subtract fiddly stuff, check if exceed a number.
Descending AC: Roll 1d20, add or subtract fiddly stuff, check if exceed a number.

>MUH D&D DID IT
Yes, and? You're playing rip-offs of D&D and using material designed for use with D&D. Are you also going to complain if the next Terminator has time travel and robots?

>>55362475
>Ascending AC: Roll 1d20, add or subtract fiddly stuff, check if exceed a number.
>Descending AC: Roll 1d20, add or subtract fiddly stuff, check if exceed a number.
You're leaving out a step or two, don't you think?
>Yes, and? You're playing rip-offs of D&D and using material designed for use with D&D. Are you also going to complain if the next Terminator has time travel and robots?
Why not improve something instead of sticking with outdated mechanics?

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>>55362394
I already did.

Anyway, since this is bait I won't be responding any more. I have enough of these pictures to get us into autosage, and I'd really rather this thread have something productive in it before that happens.

>>55362498
Go ahead and bump then. I'm the OP.

>>55362235
>What's wrong with having nonhumans,
As someone who has grown a distaste for non-human characters, or at the very least non core-4 races, I'll field this question relative specifically to why I don't like players playing as non-humans.

They just don't emote very well as that race. Ultimately, it just becomes a stat they picked up at char-gen for the perks of it. This was especially bad in 5e when I was doing Adventuer's League for them before hoping onto the OSR train. But even in my private 5e games, I found that there was a very toxic mental condition that races were only played specifically for their bonuses, even though they denied this up and down.

Point: I was trying to start up a home 5e campaign with some people in my FLGS way back, and I was slowly growing irritable with the power builds I was seeing. People kept telling me "feats are great for character customization", but every single time, people would pick the same exact 5 feats that basically put them 4 or 5 levels ahead in terms of power development and leave the rest to the wayside.

Having this experience, I told the group "Make what you want, but NO feats. Chapter 6 is going to remain optional and off the table" to which a sperg who was on board with me every step of the way suddenly and violently turned on me and INSISTED that no feats make the humans "Unviable" and there was now no reason, despite gaining a +6 total stat growth normally, to not just play another race entirely, and would eventually wind up dropping out despite any questioning of "why not just play a human and not worry about power gaming"? Which would just send him into a tizzy.

Gary Gygax was way ahead of his time when he wrote that people just want to be monster races for the power, not because they see compelling stories in them.

>>55362458
But what line states that he's never stepped foot into a dungeon? You missed that part.

>>55362475
>-10 is a hard limit.
30 is a hard limit.

Wow. You sure are retarded.

>>55362497
>Why not improve something instead of sticking with outdated mechanics?
Not him, again, but why fix something that isn't broken? Why should we immediately accept your subjective opinions as fact as to what is "outdated" and how you can "improve" it? Even more so since you go back and forth between pointing out that they're almost the same, except for when you pointlessly talk around about how descending AC is supposed to be so glaringly inferior and mystifying

>>55362598
>Why should we immediately accept your subjective opinions
It's not subjective. Descending AC is needlessly more complicated

>>55362529
This is just rehashed ROLLPLAYERS arguments from the '90s. For all that the "serious roleplayers" of the decade decried D&D, they took on similar attitudes to the old fogeys, including the passive aggressive ways to limit character choices. Rather than just setting hard nos on what PCs can be, they give out gimped choices and then go
>Gary Gygax was way ahead of his time when he wrote that people just want to be monster races for the power, not because they see compelling stories in them.
like it's any excuse. (Plus, it's weird to see people quoting Gygax in defense of 'compelling stories' given the hate in OSR circles for anything resembling story making.)
I've never had any trouble either playing humans or finding people willing to play as them, even without restrictions on what non-humans can be or do. If your players don't want to play humans without mechanical bonuses, consider that maybe you made them boring as shit.

>>55362613
not if you use a decent system for attacks
http://deltasdnd.blogspot.com/2009/07/what-is-best-combat-algorithm.html

>>55362627
I can't imagine being so deluded that I'd believe reading combat algorithms is somehow less complicated than ascending AC, where you just look at the fucking die, add the imaginary numbers and check if it's bigger than the number the monster has

>>55362598
Also not him, but
>why fix something that isn't broken?
You're right, but that's the point. Take what ISN'T broken and leave the rest.
>Why should we immediately accept your subjective opinions as fact as to what is "outdated" and how you can "improve" it?
Because we can objectively state arguments why, not just in terms of game design and efficiency in use, but also understanding human psychology and game theory. Descending AC has no argument that hasn't been picked apart to death.

Even if you don't want to submit to that argument, that's 100% fine. You can, when you write your rules, choose to take something you subjectively feel is inferior and improve it. In fact, I encourage you to do it so we have more variations of the game out on the market not just to choose from but to also collect ideas from.

What I DON'T encourage is steadfastly sticking your dick in the sand and refusing to move when you have even a slight issue with something because of nostalgia or "it's not technically broken so it's fine if I don't improve it".

>>55362627
Honestly this has all of the problems as both ascending and descending combined, with no benefit.

>>55362613
>Descending AC is needlessly more complicated
And qwerty is less ergonomic than dvorak, and I could probably get a teapot with a longer spout so I spill less often. Why bother changing it if it's not been a significant problem, except for the momentary mental satisfaction that maybe I'm doing something slightly more "efficiently" than I otherwise could have?

>>55362695
>And qwerty is less ergonomic than dvorak
changing your keyboard layout takes a lot of time and practice
> and I could probably get a teapot with a longer spout so I spill less often
what?
anyway, it's such an easy change, there's no reason not to fix it other than it would cause stubborn people like yourself to go into autistic fits of rage

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>>55362623
>"If your players refuse to use story reasons to pick their characters and ONLY pick their characters based on their fiddly numbers that they grant? Well, obviously that has nothing to do psychologically with how people act in a game setting or how badly the game is designed. No, it's clearly YOUR fault as the DM for making this humans in this book come off as boring."
Gee, I'm really glad you set me straight on that, cap'n. I just couldn't see the error of my ways before, but I'm glad you're here as my moral compass to set me straight.

>>55362627
What the fuck, is that the real mike mearls?

>>55362643
>>55362678
it's basically the same as ascending armor class in terms of simplicity
d20 + level + AC + mods ≥ 20
for a player, all they need to know is d20 + level + mods, they tell that to the gm. gm checks if that + AC is greater than 20

also, read the article. to summarize, his 3 principals for making easy combat are:
(1) Additions are easier than subtractions.
(2) Round numbers are easier to compare than odd numbers.
(3) Small numbers are easier to compare than large numbers.
(cont)

>>55362695
The first would have a radical dip in your efficiency as you would have a new learning period, but eventually it would pay off, so the sooner the better.

The second one is just retarded on your part. You're spilling boiling hot sticky-water in your home near your person and potentially on your carpet, there is a solution for this, but you're refusing to change to this solution for a few bucks because "Spilling boiling hot sticky water on my floor isn't what I would call a significant problem"? That's just indicative of a larger problem with your psychosis and refusal to change than anything else.

>>55362753

and his argument against ascending is
> it forces us at the end of our algorithm to run a comparison against a relatively large, and frequently odd, number, such as AC15, or AC27. By using instead descending ACs, they will always be a single digit (and therefore easier to manipulate according to finding #3), and we'll also see below that we can arrange a rule such that the final comparison is always run against a fixed, round number (and therefore preferred according to principle #2 as well).

also, no need to convert from old descending armor to ascending in older modules. it's a decent ruleset, give it a try.

>>55362736
I couldn't tell you

>>55362753
Or the players and DM, before the session starts, just use the ascending AC option mentioned in the DMG. Just a thought.

>>55362712
>changing your keyboard layout takes a lot of time and practice
>what?
I honestly refuse to believe you don't get the point of the metaphor, since you've read the following line.
>anyway, it's such an easy change, there's no reason not to fix it other than it would cause stubborn people like yourself to go into autistic fits of rage
Okay, let me start off with a useful tidbit of information: I play in a 5e campaign, and you probably know that system uses ascending AC. So no, I'm not an ancient grog who refuses to see the glorious light of ascending AC, which makes the stupid straw-manning even more annoying. I'm also looking at you, >>55362646. My point is that there is no difference or improvement worth mentioning UNLESS you're trying to evangelize people who are fine with either system into using the other one for no reason whatsoever

Also, captcha bugged up and by the time I updated there was another autist calling me psychotic for daring to imply ascending AC isn't the literal second coming of christ

>>55362753
I've never had any trouble comparing numbers to non-round numbers. Nor have I noticed anyone else having trouble with that. It's pretty trivial. Instead, what I have noticed is that people have a lot more difficulty with addition (and subtraction) than with comparisons, particularly when there are a lot of numbers to keep track of. So we should be trying to encourage comparisons instead of addition and subtraction. Something which is better served by both ascending and descending.

>>55362813
That sounds to me more like a problem of managing bonuses on a character sheet. It would be trivial to have your attack bonus, level, and magic item/strength/misc bonuses added into one big "combat modifier" on your character sheet, which would reduce extra numbers to add just to situational buffs/debuffs etc

>>55362795
>Also, captcha bugged up and by the time I updated there was another autist calling me psychotic for daring to imply ascending AC isn't the literal second coming of christ
this seems a bit hyperbolic, don't you think?

>>55362795
>which makes the stupid straw-manning even more annoying. I'm also looking at you, >>55362646
What strawmanning? I gave you perfectly good reasons why. State your problem with the arguments, or be quiet.

>>55362905
About as hyperbolic as "That's just indicative of a larger problem with your psychosis and refusal to change than anything else" because I made a tea analogy, mang

>>55362930
Your tea analogy was a bit of a failure though. He absolutely raises a fantastic point on that one.

>>55362813
The only solution for that is to have a static number pre-calculated on your sheet. That's just not really fun honestly.

Also, people have a far, FAR more difficult time with subtraction than addition which is one of the major reasons why ascending AC is not only the most wide-spread method of calculating To-Hit, it's also the one that's more easily accepted into groups in general.

>>55362924
>What strawmanning?

>What I DON'T encourage is steadfastly sticking your dick in the sand and refusing to move when you have even a slight issue with something because of nostalgia or "it's not technically broken so it's fine if I don't improve it".
If that's not a strawman, it sure is condescending. I didn't have the energy to say the same thing in slightly different ways to that many people, my internet fight ki can only do so much, so sorry for not replying to you.
>>55362941
I'll freely admit I'm a clumsy idiot, but sometimes spilling a few drops of tea on the table a) really isn't enough to do any elaborate judgement of character and b) is nowhere near as dramatic as OH GOD THERE'S BOILING WATER ALL OVER THE FLOOR SOMEONE PLEASE TAKE ME TO THE ER AND CALL THE POWER-CLEANING CREW BEFORE IT'S TOO LATE I reserve the right to be overly dramatic

>>55362857
I'm going to be honest --- when I run OSR, I've been using descending. When I play 3E, I've been using ascending. And in my 3E game, the number of situational buffs and debuffs is pretty high. It's undoubtedly a different situation in OSR since there are less bonuses, but at least there even with a static "combat modifier" it's still horrific and grinds the game to a complete halt as some of the other players help one of the less mathematically-inclined players manage the bonuses.

>>55362980
I'll take your word for it about subtraction being more difficult for people.. Personally, I've never had any issues. But even so --- wouldn't that make the solution of writing down what you need to hit each AC the best solution? I've heard that some people use that.

>>55359932
>Torchbearer

Torchbearer is an interesting game and you should play it. However, it very much puts "trick the rules" front and center. In OSR games, you say what your character does and the GM tells you the consequences. In Torchbearer, you are constantly trying to use the aspects of your character to get different bonuses, and trying to justify why your cooking skill makes you able to help your friend who are trying to find north, and justify why your character just got angry after scaring away the goblins. It is very much a game, where OSR is more of a simulation.

Maybe checkout some Torchbearer Lets Play? There is a nice one of youtube were they do The Sunless Citadel.

>>55363017
>I'll freely admit I'm a clumsy idiot, but sometimes spilling a few drops of tea on the table[...]
See, the reason why I made that character analysis is because it would be quite easy to spill boiling-lava-hot water on, say, your foot, in which case your foot is now fucked up and then you're probably also going to drop the tea pot, right? That's a pretty natural reaction. So not only is your foot suffering second-degree burns, but you have broken glass all over the place and have also possibly injured a pet. Even if you avoid all of this, tea spilt tends to turn spots on the floor sticky which is just bad hygiene, attracts ants, and makes you look like someone with a cockney accent.

The problem with your mindset isn't the "it's not broken so it's fine", the problem here is "It's not broken because it has yet to bite me really hard in the ass, so it's fine", COMBINED with the fact that the solution is retardedly easy to permanently fix, and yet you are still of the mindset that you shouldn't change this. Fuck, you can just get a goddamn cork for your spout or make a cap to prevent this, but you would rather look at the problem and just be like "eh, I'll deal with it". Even though you know the solution already.

I mean, fuck dude. If that isn't indicative of someone who isn't a problem solver (and frankly, why do you play OSR if this is the case?), it's definitely indicative of someone who really just doesn't think and just wants to "veg out" the rest of their life watching reruns of 90210.

What's with all the arguing lately, this sucks
guess I'll go read blogs instead :^)

>>55363051
>wouldn't that make the solution of writing down what you need to hit each AC the best solution? I've heard that some people use that.
I've seen some people use that. That might be good for someone who is legit mentally disabled and cannot learn enough math to make those additions, but honestly I find that it's a lot of work, especially when you're going to have to start juggling in modifiers as well, because then do you subtract the modifiers on the chart, or add them to what you rolled, or only add them in if the roll isn't high enough which might turn some hits into misses, etc.

Just pure game theory wise, ascending is the most widely used not just because people have easier time with addition, but also because it's far more intuitive for people to handle. You could throw out a million armchair psychologist reasons for it, but that's just what people readily accept and are happy with.

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>>55363119
gotta watch dem 90210 reruns

>>55363201
And thank you for proving my point.

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Last night, on the wall of the King's dining hall, these words appeared, carved in glowing light
XIXOS
NIXOS
ANOS
DOX

The King has offered a vast fortune to anyone who can decipher the meaning of this presumably heaven-sent message, and what it means for his dynasty.

What do your PCs do? And what do the words mean for your setting's local politics?

>>55363393
>ANOS
that kinda sounds like "anus" tee-hee

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>>55363423

>>55363393
Those are all obviously different flavors of Linux.

I install all of the words into separate hard drives of the ships' computers.

>>55363423
Sire, this man has offered his anus to ye as a solution

What say you

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>>55363469
BLOOD AND THUNDER
>>55363460
The good news is that your ship can now travel faster than the next fastest object you know of (so your ship will always get anywhere before anything else).

The bad news is that your jump drive (renamed the Knox drive) relies on the divine omniscience of God to get anywhere, by collapsing the universe's entire quantum waveform into a single pattern, then moving along before chaos reasserts itself. This has the unfortunate side effect of ruining fancy electronics, physics experiments, and prayers every time you switch it on. Nice going. Shoulda gone with a Mac.

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>>55363508
>Shoulda gone with a Mac.
Mac is just a flavor of UNIX, you bitch ass nigga, thinkin' I don't work in IT, mufucka.

>>55358767

BARD BARD BARD BARD BARD BARD BARD BARD BARD BARD BARD BARD BARD BARD BARD BARD BARD BARD BARD

>>55362613
>Descending AC is needlessly more complicated
It's EXACTLY as complicated as ascending AC.

>>55363773
He means it's less intuitive and more complicated to explain how the full mechanics work.

>>55364011
>Ascending AC
Find to-hit bonus. Calculation is d20 + To-Hit + Modifiers vs. Defender's AC.

>Descending AC
Find number needed to hit an AC of 0. Calculation is d20 + Defender's AC + Modifiers vs. THAC0.

Same amount of math, just explained really poorly for descending AC.

>>55358767
>Renaissance
>posts image of 13th century knight

>>55364790
>School
>Knights, maidens and horses didn't attend formal learning institutions

>>55364826
>Old
>posts image of young adults

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>tfw you finally get to run ACKS

Feels good man

Thank you to the Anon who wrote up "On Hexcrawls" in the last thread. I've only ever played/run games in dungeons or cities, so it is a nice quick intro.

>>55364790
>>55364826
>>55365019
My sides are in orbit

How does /osr/ feel about some meta-narrative mechanics?

I know most people here dislike Dungeon World, but one idea from it I really like is the idea of the adventuring pouches or backpacks. Basically it lets a player decide the moment they need something, they actually had that packed all along with them in their pouch. Of course, this has a limited number of uses and the items it can produce must be mundane and low value.

Do you think mechanics like this are cancerous or at least interesting?

Running a text-based OSR game and desperate for players, so:

>GM/Player
GM
>System Preferred
Adventurer Conqueror King System (OSR)
>Times Available (with timezone!)
Wednesday 1pm GMT (FIRST SESSION TODAY)
>Method of Play (Skype, IRC, roll20, etc)
Roll20
>Contact Info
https://app.roll20.net/lfg/listing/88226/lloedain-the-lost-land
>Additional Notes
We are running today. I've had to boot two players because they don't seem to understand it's not 5e and refuse to make characters using the rulebook.

Luckily character creation is a 30 minute process a lot of the time so it's quick and easy.

>>55365982
It works well, but can make a lot of low-level challenges become boring

>>55360020
I used to do >>55360045 but now the Heroic Fantasy Companion has came out and the Ceremonial Magic rules are fucking amazing.

>>55366007
>Luckily character creation is a 30 minute process a lot of the time so it's quick and easy.

Surely you meant 30 second process here?

>>55361858
>I love how nobody in these threads even bothers defending descending AC
It's not because nobody likes or can stand it, it's just because you sperglords clearly aren't looking for a discussion, you're just looking for a fight -- so happily, few to no anons engage.

We've had discussions about it perfectly fine several times when neither side has been composed of partisan shitlosers.

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>>55366325

The setting is a low fantasy Dark Ages Europe so it takes a bit of explaining to do.

Especially when I had a player trying to play this:

Character Name: Havoc
Character Nationality:Black

Character Appearance
when hes not wearing his hood and mask which is extremely rare he would look to be in his early 20 have deep piercing silver eyes and have

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>>55366698
Minus the silver eyes he can be Havoc the Moor

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So I've seen a few systems like this, but I've been working on an item durability system for a low-power game. The main idea is to distinguish between weapon materials a la Dark Sun without necessarily giving weapons bonuses or penalties to damage.

Each weapon and suit of armour has a maximum 'notch' capacity. A brand new item will (usually) have no notches. When it reaches its capacity, the item breaks and becomes useless.
A weapon gains a notch every time its bearer rolls a natural 1 in combat. Armour gains a notch every time an attacker rolls a natural 20.

Items will usually have a notch capacity based on their material:
Stone/Wood = 1 max
Silver = 2 max
Bronze/'Cold' Iron, Leather/Padded Cloth= 3 max
Steel = 5 max

Items can be repaired by a craftsman for a price based on the new item price divided by the notch capacity, per notch.
For a bit of fun, you can add sewing kits or sharpening kits to the equipment list that can repair notches in the field with 3 uses per kit.

This gives a reason for players not to run around using silver or cold iron weapons as their main armament like mine do.
If you want to make swords and the like legitimately expensive, you can arm enemies with damaged weapons so the players can't just kill a bandit and sell their weapon to earn loads of money. In the same vein, you can provide some rewards a little earlier - a rusty suit of full plate from a dead knight with 3 notches, for instance.
And at the opposite end, you can have craftsmen sell high-quality items with a higher notch capacity than usual.

Thoughts? I know this kind of thing can quickly become a book-keeping nightmare, so I've tried to keep the overhead as low as possible - just put a tally mark next to the item on the character sheet. It does introduce a few new factors to the logistical game though, which is always fun.

>>55366782
>Dark Ages Europe
>El-Hawuk the Moor appears
>is immediately slain by a dirt farmer for being a Saracen
>the dirt farmer is praised for his heroism against the paynims and made a count
>his tale forms the basis for the character Roland

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>>55363066
Didn't even think about Let's Plays - that's a great idea. Thanks!

>>55361796
OSRIC, LL, etc. were written for publishers, not for players.

>>55363460
>separate hard drives
>not partitions
You could fit them all on one drive, if it were big enough.
"Really big HD" would make for a neat room/complex in a sci-fi dungeon.

>>55364645
Not meaning to bring back yesterday's stale bait but I'm just laffin at how the AC shitposting stopped entirely after this post

>>55366033
>Heroic Fantasy

Is this out?

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Thoughts?

>>55369127

Most of that is meaningless platitudes or nonsensical allegories.

>>55369127
4, 5 and 10 are lost on me. What do they even mean?

>>55369179

Blah blah I'm a hipster that just discovered RPGs.

>>55369127
how embarrassing

>>55369179
They don't mean anything, they're just pretentious drivel.

>>55369151
>>55369179
>>55369346
How about the COUNTER-MANIFESTO?

1. If it's in a Dungeon and needs your help, it's a trap.

2. Use the environment. That's what it's there for.

3. Them fearing you is half the battle. You'd better look the part, punk.

4. The Rules are your friend, as is the weapon of your choice. Never forget that.

5. The Dungeon Master isn't your friend. And shouldn't be.

6. If you can't beat it alone, cooperate with the pack. Nothing's changing? Flee.

7. It's not called an adventure, it's called a sandbox. The sandbox is not your friend.

8. Everything comes with a price. If the price is right, do it.

9. Trust the thief to do his job. It will also mean he's stealing from you. If you are the thief, deny that.

10. Trust the fighter to do his job. If you're the fighter: do your job!

11. Be nice to the magic-user, he might get powerful (if he lives). If you're the magic-user, write down their names now, misdirect fire balls later.

12. Believe! If you're the cleric: make them.

13. Remember: demi-humans might not have a soul.

14. Your life being cheap doesn't mean they shouldn't pay.

15. And it's all right, if you can get away with it.

16. You owe no one.

17. Use your brain.

>>55369393
how embarrassing

>>55369127
>>55369393

What is the point of these manifestos? Been rpging since the 80s our only code was to have fun.

OSR is immergent gameplay exlempfied. You mix heroes with encounters and treasure and a story happens.

>>55365982
>Do you think mechanics like this are cancerous
This. For the same reason that skill systems are cancerous. It's only purpose is to bypass/backdoor the roleplay, so that lesser players can still have "fun" futzing around and rolling dice.

>>55364645
No, actually, it's not the same amount of math nor steps.

Ascending AC:
>Roll d20
>Add to-hit bonus
>Add modifiers
>Success if equal to or greater than target AC
>Done

Descending AC with THAC0
>Roll d20
>Add modifiers to roll
>Find target AC
>Subtract enemy AC from your THAC0 to find target number/Add enemy AC to roll/add all numbers and use 20 as target number/etc
>Success if roll is equal-to or greater-than target number

Less intuitive, one more step involving a fucking algorithm that all players have to memorize and WILL forget even with repeated play, and even harder to explain. Or worse:

Descending AC pre-THAC0
>Roll d20
>Add modifiers to roll
>Okay you're done. Those numbers now go into a magic black box called the DM who is absolutely not referencing a fuck huge matrix right now that he has to either book mark the page for or photocopy it and stick it somewhere.
>Magic Black Box DM tells you if you hit or miss without any real information about how hard that check was
Or if you don't want to accept the ACTUAL D&D DID IT method of using AC, then you do this instead
>Open book and reference attack matrix
>Take into account your level and class
>Reference that chart across to find the AC you need to hit
>Check to see if your roll + modifiers (I hope you haven't forgotten them by this point and don't have to re-add) is greater than or equal to this number
And bonus
>Painstakingly write down this entire row of the chart on your character sheet to make gameplay faster
>Until you level up, in which case you now have to completely erase and re-write this ENTIRE matrix back down onto your character sheet.

Indefensible, frankly.

>>55368752
That's cause we all went to bed, faglord.

>>55369731
this 100%

>>55369731
Descending AC with THAC0
>roll d20
>add AC to roll
>add modifiers
>success if greater than or equal to your THAC0
>done

Exact same number of steps unless you're doing it in an unnecessarily convoluted manner.

>>55369731
Maybe I'm misreading it, but the way B/X does attacks with descending AC (despite the way it's actually explained) seems to be work as:

d20+attack bonuses (Strength, magic weapons, etc.)+target AC+miscellaneous modifiers, hit on 20 or greater. In practice, no better nor worse than ascending AC. Though I won't argue that the THAC0 tables actually provided in B/X aren't clunky as all get-out.

>>55365982

Why should those too lazy to write a rudimentary gear list be rewarded for their lack of preparation? Magically pulling what you need out of a hat because you payed a flat fee is weak shit.

As a DM I won't stand for this sort of PC coddling. Track your ammunition, spells and food too, because I sure am.

>>55369910
Just don't respond, he's made it plenty clear that he's either a troll or retarded

>>55365982
>>55369985

I use index card "adventurer's kits" sold at a fixed price but the contents are finite and pre-determined. Magically having whatever mundane item you need when you reach into the bag seems like a powerful magical item. One I'd not sell players for a pittance of 10 go.

>>55370000
>damn I have no argument... I know! I'll just say it's a troll!

Can somebody list some good OSR games with ascending AC like BFRPG?

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>>55371200
LotFP

>>55371306
Which do you prefer and why?

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>>55369127
>___punk
Into the sphere of annihilation it goes.

>>55371306
>LotFP

>>55367150
I like this. I posted I think last thread looking for ways to run non-steel items.

>>55365982
Cancer. OSR is about being prepared for the unexpected and using what you have in creative ways to get past obstacles and avoid dying. If you come across a sheer cliff, you should either have taken the time to be prepared before hand and brought rope and a grappling hook (and thus, getting past this obstacle rewards preparedness), or you should have to find another way around the obstacle if possible (which rewards creativity).

I need 1d6 curses for my player that stepped into the forbidden sanctum of the Dark One.

1. Vampyrism. Can only gain subsistence from blood. Can be ended by exorcism.

2. ???

Ideas?

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>>55371501
> Which do you prefer and why?
I like the LotFP specialist class, tho we still to refer to them as thieves. I'm intrigued by how in LotFP, only fighters improve in their ability to hit. Downsides to LotFP are no galleries of monsters or magical items. Raggian doctrine is the DM should invent custom monsters and treasure for each encounter, but we don't play that way.

>>55372544
In the Referee Book for the Grindhouse edition, he just tells you to use monsters from other bestiaries (e.g. AD&D), though with the recommendation of making alterations if not in stats then at least in the descriptions of said monsters.

>>55372515
2. Curse of Monstrous Mien. Everyone reacts to the character as though he were monster of equal HD. Monsters want to serve/hire him, people want to lynch/expel him. It can only be broken by an act of charity to monsters with no double crosses or ruses.

3. Curse of the Leaden Step. This character always triggers pressure plates, pit traps, etc. This curse can be broken by drinking water mixed with powdered lead (save or die in 1d4 days).

4. Curse of Seeing. The character can now permanently detect magic, read magic, see invisible, see onto the ethereal, and see life energy (cf. deathwatch) . . . even if his eyes are closed. He must make a save vs wand to successfully sleep for 2d4 hours; every night without sleep causes him to lose 1d3 Con and 1d3 Wis until he can get a continuous 8 hours of sleep. If either Con or Wis are reduced to 0, the character becomes a wraith who can cast sleep at will as a spell-like ability.

>>55372755
>4. Curse of Seeing. The character can now permanently detect magic, read magic, see invisible, see onto the ethereal, and see life energy (cf. deathwatch) . . . even if his eyes are closed. He must make a save vs wand to successfully sleep for 2d4 hours; every night without sleep causes him to lose 1d3 Con and 1d3 Wis until he can get a continuous 8 hours of sleep. If either Con or Wis are reduced to 0, the character becomes a wraith who can cast sleep at will as a spell-like ability.
Add something about being immune to magical sources of sleep as well.

>>55369127
not only cringey but also signed by someone who wanted his name on it, which makes it even more cringey

>>55372515
>>55372755
5. Curse of Tongues. The afflicted changes between all of the languages and dialects and codes that he knows within each sentence. This curse can be ended by eating goat or ox tongue soup at least 4 times per week over a period of 1d3 months. Intense concentration may allow for a lucid sentence to be uttered, though it requires a wisdom check to do so.

>>55369910
Still less intuitive, a method that was never described as such and was only pointed out years after the fact that you have the superior ascending AC, and still requires subtraction in the middle of your formula once negative AC comes into play which is very much counter-intuitive

>>55369942
Even if that is the underlying system, the problem is that they never explained it as such, and in 1e wind up obfuscating the information with little purpose. Again, it's also counter-intuitive to how people think and also has a problem with conveyance of benefit.

>>55370000
>Damage Control: The post

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>the ascending AC cuck is still assblasted

>>55374323
>he thinks there's only one of us
>he still hasn't come up with an argument

>>55374323
>Being so asshurt you lost an online argument that you Plead the Crowd afterwards.

>>55374385
>>55370698

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>dismisses arguments by simply saying "nu-uh"
>pretends he's winning the argument

>>55374640
>>55374361

>>55374669
>>55374640
>>55374323

>>55374775
>>55374361
>>55362394
>>55370698

So, what would be a good size for a one-shot dungeon?

>>55374994
5-10 rooms maybe?

>>55375047
>>55374994
I think you could fit as many as 20

>>55374994
416.

If you don't like descending AC, GET THE FUCK OUT OF THESE THREADS! It started that way and ITLL STAY THAT WAY. Doesn't matter if there's a quicker way, it aint the way its supposed to be!

Maybe we can make peace between people with introduction of hovering AC, that neither ascends nor descends?

>>55359433
2e

>>55375390
Can everyone please shut the fuck up about which way you like your armor to go please?

We're in polite fucking company here. Jesus fucking Chirst.

>>55375613
>>55375390
P.S. Not you. You're obviously the only one invested with any authority to speak about any kind of armor, whether it hover or not.

>>55375637
Excuse me? Ascending AC is fucking retarded and you know it

>>55375650
>fucking retarded
As in having capabilities of someone with DOWN syndrome? But the thing is...descending has an acute meaning of: to go or pass from a higher to a lower place; move or come DOWN.
If anything its the descending AC that is going retarded. It's all in a books. You said it yourself.

>>55375764
Descending AC has been around for like 60 years. It's tried and true

>>55375650
You're not excused you fucktard. I know no such thing and I'll thank you to keep any fucking shitty opinions you have to your fucking self.
>>55375773
I said shut the fuck up, but you're obviously to fucking retarded to be able to comprehend anything more complex than animalian braying so I'll make it easier for you

>"HEYEUYYAEYAYEYA"


The pair of you, shut the ever loving titfuck up. After all, I don't go to where you like to hang out after work and slap the cocks out of your mouths do I? So why the fuck are you here cocking up my fucking favorite general?

>>55375830
Both of those posts are mine you damn idiot. Take your ascending AC and GTFO!

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>This fucking argument
And you guys wonder why everyone else has moved on.

>>55375863
Fair enough.

>>55375863
>>55375773
>>55375764
>>55375650
>>55374799
>>55374775
>>55374669
>>55374640
>>55374361
>>55374323
>>55374170
>>55369942
>>55369910
>>55369731


No one fucking cares about your armor. Give it a rest.

>>55375912
Yeah? I bet your an ascending AC loving idiot so you have no place in OSR threads

I mean, is it honestly that difficult to just convert the AC?

>>55375994
It's not, and it's just the better option, so I honestly don't know why people still try to hold onto descending AC.

>>55376050
ascending AC aint OSR!

Ascending or descending AC? Neither, the way ACKS handles AC and attack throws is the true patrician choice

>>55376307
Can I get a quick rundown?

>>55375613
>Can everyone please shut the fuck up about which way you like your armor to go please?
Seriously. All this ascending vs descending AC stuff is bullshit. It doesn't matter which way you do it. The only thing that matters is that you do armor as a damage-reducing apparatus, which is clearly superior.

>>55376481
t. Ascending AC moron

>>55376307
Yeah, I like that the ACKS guys saw Ascending AC and Descending AC and decided to do it a completely different way. But with the same maths.

>>55376354
Characters have an 'attack throw', which is a number you need to roll over to hit. Basically a save.
AC is added to the attack throw. The example in the book is a 10th level fighter with an attack throw of 4+ hitting something with AC 7. He needs to roll an 11+, because 4+7=11.

>>55376680
If you don't want to tell the players the monster AC or do the math, you can just let them subtract their AT from the roll and compare the result to the target AC.

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>>55376307
Orthogonal AC. Sort that one out in vector space, you fucks.
>>55368752
>Not meaning to bring back yesterday's stale bait but I'm just laffin at how the AC shitposting stopped entirely after this post

Oh anon. It never stops.
>>55369127
It's a little pretentious, but it's not actively evil or anything.

>>55367986
>is immediately slain by a dirt farmer for being a Saracen
Funny story about that. The actual answer is >Dirt farmer goes 'oh shit, a stranger' and find someone higher up the ranks, probably a knight. Then the knight wanders over and tries to figure out what the fuck is going on, and if the guy with dark skin is a noble or an angel or an escaped devil or what.

>If he turns out to be a noble (by showing proper courtesy and all that), the knight goes 'aww fuck' and escalates it up the chain, to his baron at least, possibly higher.

>If he's not a noble, does he have a good reason for being here? Is he a merchant? Oh, well that's fine then. Go somewhere else and be a merchant. Probably a city; they won't give a shit.

>Not a merchant or a noble? Got any other plausible excuse? Nope. Well off to the baron anyway for being a stranger on the road with no excuse and probably being a spy or something. Quick trial, hasty death.

It's all about your Estate, not your skin tone. Skin tone is a curiosity; not acting like a proper person from Around Here is a mortal offense (unless you're a Noble or have a good excuse).

>the dirt farmer is praised for his heroism against the paynims and made a count
A fucking COUNT? Anon... anon....
Not how that works.

>>55377421
I'm convinced that if Gygax had written a hombrew where you calculated AC by solving complex differential equations, people would still defend it.

>>55377461
I certainly would. I've been looking for RPGs that have math above elementary school level for years.

>>55377421
Orthogonal AC sounds kind of fun.

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>>55377461
Some of the wargames of the era did have pretty complex systems. I'm sure someone would have talked him out of it, but there was stuff he could have adapted that used the Taylor series if I'm remembering right. It was ages ago. Might be residual math PTSD.

>>55376680
>Characters have an 'attack throw', which is a number you need to roll over to hit.
Yes, I too remember THAC0. How truly revolutionary of ACKS to rip-off a 20-year old mechanic.

>>55376481
Are there any OSR systems that use this?

>>55378493
That I know of, only The Black Hack. I think some anon in these threads said his GLOG variant used it as well.

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Not going to get caught up in a debate over ascending or descending AC, I just want to post my map. It's free for anyone to use and I have a few different maps you can use and will post them. I've posted these before but I want to let others get them who may have missed them.

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>>55378581
No setting info, just a nifty map for anyone to use and adjust as they see fit.

>>55378581
>Not going to get caught up in a debate over ascending or descending AC
Probably because your on the wrong side (ascending AC)

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>>55378581
>>55378598
That's a nice map! Thank you anon.

What are the little symbols, and what is the scale?

>>55378703
Not the poster, but your hex size should be 6 miles between parallel faces.

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>>55378740
Oh it should be, but people use all sorts of scales.

6 miles is pretty big too.

>>55362179
But plate and shield is 2...

>>55378365
Well, kind of. It's THAC0 with ascending AC.

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Here are my thoughts on how to think like a medieval person.

https://coinsandscrolls.blogspot.ca/2017/09/thinking-medieval-seeking-endarkenment.html

They're fairly broad, but I hope they are useful. NPC characterization is something many GMs struggle with. This might help.

What do you guys think of magicless games? I want to emulate the feel of The Hobbit where a bunch of thieves and fighters go after treasure.

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>>55379582
I'm a fan. The main goal of magic is to evoke a sense of wonder. There are other ways to do it, but the supernatural is a very quick and easy method.

>>55379604
Exactly, and that sense of wonder can arguably be even greater by removing magical PCs if the world around them still has magical stuff like undead and magical items and whatnot.

>>55378703
I have a master list of what the symbols mean for my game, but you may make up whatever you wish for them to be.

As for scale, as this anon here >>55378740 pointed out it is 6 miles. This map is 60x60 hexes at 6 miles/hex so the map comes in at 360x360 miles or about 129,600 miles^2, or a little bigger than the US state of New Mexico.

>>55379569
This is one of your best posts yet.

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>>55379650
Thanks for the reply. I'd recommend this post as a good one for 6-mile hexes: http://tao-dnd.blogspot.ca/2013/03/scale-on-ground.html

These days, with google earth and all that, it's very easy to see exactly how much stuff is in a 6 mile hex. Spoiler: it's a lot. I tried to do some rough population and settlement math here for a medieval-ish setting: https://coinsandscrolls.blogspot.ca/2017/09/osr-land-and-investments.html

>>55379674
Thanks!

I feel like I should write up a table or something but I have no ideas.

>>55379569
Hey man I said earlier in the thread that your blog was poorly put together and not helpful. I was just being a dick and I apologize. Going through a lot of shit right now and you didn't deserve that. I actually think this is some really cool stuff. Remember that next time somebody shits on it, because it might just be me on a bad day

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>>55379779
Don't worry about it anon. I've been on the internet since it was a thing you called on the phone. My dad thought IRC was "Irish Republican Chat" and warned me about terrorism. I've seen it all. /tg/ don't scare me none. :D

I hope you're doing better. Real life is the hardest game of all. You think OSR's "Saves vs Death" are unfair? Most GMs don't make you roll for depression or aneurysms or random unexpected expenses.

>>55379848
Thanks mate. Have a good one. Cheers

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>>55379766
What's Down That Well?

Magical Uses For The Common Housecat

Speak With Birds: What Are The Birds Up To Today?

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>>55377496
checked out Warlock 2000 yet?

>>55367150
I have a veeerry similar system, but I also add the users level to the weapons notches, with the thought that a more skilled user is less likely to break their weapon. I like your material system.

>>55379908
Haven't seen this before. Is there something in particular there I should see?

>>55379766
Weird religious codes of behaviour?

>>55379908
I haven't looked too closely, but the math in it is suggested to be more complex.

>>55379871
>d10 Avian Shenanigans

1. Plotting how to get Farmer McCaul to leave the door to his grain shed open overnight so they can get at all the grain. All their ideas so far have been completely moronic, but slowly getting better. If the PCs help they will graciously give them a share of the loot.

2. Arguing with each other over who has the biggest dick in an attempt to woo a nearby lady bird. It isn't working.

3. Concocting, on the spot, a tale of a dungeon filled with fabulous loot and very little danger nearby that he can lead the party to- for a price. (Food, or possibly shiny things.) Any expression of what kind of dungeon or treasure would be preferred causes the bird to change his story on the spot.

4. Murder of crows, laughing at the party. Know much more than they should. May refer to the PCs by the player's names, then apologize for the 'slip' while sniggering to themselves.

5. Laughing at what a bunch of idiots that flock of pigeons over there is. Look at how fat they all are. They're all going to be eaten by hawks.

6. Trying to perform a difficult stunt maneuver of some variety. They keep getting it wrong and braining themselves; the ground is littered with wobbly, concussed birds insisting that they're alright, they'll be flying again just as soon as the world stops spinning.

7. Keeping a wary eye on a big old cat that loves to chase birds who try to eat the seeds scattered in the fields. Sure, it looks like it's asleep now, but what if it's a trick to make us let our guard down!?

8. Absolutely nothing. Today is not a good day for doing stuff, not at all.

9. Trying to shit on people's heads because they're assholes. May focus on the Pcs specifically on account of being weirdo foreigners or some excuse like that.

10. Concocting an elaborate scheme in service to a goal they've completely forgotten. They have yet to realize this, and continue to pile up pointless complexity. Any suggestion by the party will be eagerly incorporated.

>>55374994
How much play time? I usually shoot for 30 rooms.

>>55361358
OD&D-style Descending AC was the original bounded accuracy, one of the few decent design principles of 5e (which 5e fucked up anyway). 9-2 is your basic AC range, and there are virtually no negatives outside of fancy magic and maybe a couple of entries in DDG&H (unless you're confused by the shitty formatting), which can be avoided by not using the supplements.

>>55361829
3e caused brain damage, and this is a minor part of it. NPCs and monsters using PC-building rules is absurd and terrible game design. It may be possible to do it well, but I don't think it's ever been pulled off in D&D.

>>55378869
Obviously no adventurer can achieve true first class protection without magical gear.

>>55377421
>The actual answer is
Well, no; you're talking firmly entrenched, high-medieval feudalism, not Dark Ages feudalism. As late as Hastings ordinary men were still dubbed by the blow in battle; in the period of Charlemagne you could certainly still become a noble by being a rich farmer and prepared to provide a horse and fight. If you look at the Chronicle of the Franks (covering the real pitch dark of the Dark Ages) it's pretty clear that even most of the dukes are just qualified by being rich, violent assholes. The estates had not stratified at that point. (Arguably, the period before strict heredity when anyone could potentially become a noble through personal courage was the real period of living, vital feudalism and the high medieval version was merely its decline and remnants, but this isn't /historical quibbling general/, so I'll leave that off the table)

>>55377421
>A fucking COUNT?
Obviously that was just required for the Roland joke, but in the Dark Ages, to the extent count was even a meaningful title it typically just meant "buddy of the king" (latin "comes" is sometimes translated as count now for retroactive reasons, but at the time it literally just meant "friend").

>>55378598
Thanks, Anon! These are cool, you're a hoss. I'd actually like to see some of your setting notes if you change your mind. The scale's supposed to be pretty low on these, right? (I mostly base that on the mountain regions being humongous otherwise, but maybe that's the idea, so correct me if I'm wrong.)

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>>55380710
Oh, I'm not disputing a battlefield knighting. Happened all the time. Early for valor and just standing around at the right time, late to bring up numbers after the Black Death. That's not in dispute.
> If you look at the Chronicle of the Franks
Oh anon, I looked.
https://coinsandscrolls.blogspot.ca/2017/06/table-of-rulers-history-of-franks.html
Veni, vidi, referi
>it's pretty clear that even most of the dukes are just qualified by being rich, violent assholes.
From good upstanding families who had done long service to a king. Usually because they were his family.
Or needed to be put somewhere safe.
Or were just too violent to leave loose.
But killing 1 stranger does not a knight make.

>Obviously that was just required for the Roland joke
Appreciated, but still.

>>55379848
>My dad thought IRC was "Irish Republican Chat" and warned me about terrorism.
that's pretty funny actually

This is why D&D's method of 'gain a fort when you reach X level' is really great. It's still clearly a sort of medieval system while being about personal achievement.

Besides, every King should have once been an accomplished fighter, every caravan/trading fleet leader was once a great thief, and all those big powerful Sorcerer dudes in their towers were once lowly MUs. That's how you tie together the game and worldbuilding together right.

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>>55381035
> a sort of medieval system
It's a Wild West system. http://blogofholding.com/?p=7182
Or a "we just started feudalism yesterday because we just invaded this kingdom" system. Either one works.

>>55381074
>It's a Wild West system.

lol despite looking and feeling exactly the same as a european fantasy game with all the same monsters and classes, tech period, and titles it's ACTUALLY american fantasy wild west! think about it lol there's not a single story in european literature about people advancing beyond their station of birth by their pure willpower and achievement so it's not actually european at all! Aren't I smart and knowledgeable? xd

Every single person with this retarded contrarian opinion needs to fuck off.

>>55380537
>NPCs and monsters using PC-building rules is absurd and terrible game design.
This is possibly one of the least informed opinions on game design I've read of all time in any /tg/ thread.

No character should ever be barred from learning a technique or skill of which they are physically capable of simply because they are not an NPC. Especially if the reason they cannot wield that skill is because they made a choice about their character's race and they are not an NPC. It's not just bad game design that drastically limits the players unfairly for no real decernable benefit, leaving a bad taste in everyone's mouth, but it also dramatically affects the narrative of your game and how the rules enforce it, giving rise to really questionable lore decisions and essentially painting you as "That DM" for having DMPCs who get all of the special skills.

What seals the entire deal is that you even throw in a bit about 3rd edition brain damage to try and paint an absolutely bizarre and untrue picture of anyone who could possibly disagree with you. I am absolutely stunned. If this is some avant garde trolling, then sir, you are a genius.

>>55381302
I think you misinterpreted his statement. I read it as NPC's and monsters don't need a full PC level of detail - they can and ought to be much less fully described on a mechanical level.

>>55381425
Then it doesn't make sense in the context of the reply chain, because the anon he was responding to was talking specifically about how it's bad design to have an NPC dwarf be a mage or cleric when Race as Class has rules preventing that from happening.

I completely agree with your statement though. Actually stating out a full grown PC character, even in as something as bare bones as OSR, is brain dead stupid to do for every single npc/creature.

>>55381074
>i have no idea about England
>or post-Roman Europe
>or the Grecian age

YEAH DUDE IT'S THE WILD WEST HYURR

Now that the dust has settled, I would like to remind everyone that replying to bait doesn't stop anything but instead makes you complicit in the worsening of quality of the thread. Please keep this in mind going forward.

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>>55378493
I've never played an OSR system that used armor as DR, but it's a pretty easy conversion. For B/X at least, +1 damage is very close in value to +2 to-hit overall. You just need to make sure you aren't running damage into the ground (and disproportionately disadvantaging classes that use low-damage weapons) by having DR too high relative to damage. Giving weapons a 1 die-level boost (d6 becomes d8, etc.) does wonders for this.

>>55381453
You can be a priest without taking the Cleric class that grants you x HD and y spells from z list. You can be a mage who studies magic and spends ages crafting runes into items and is not remotely a PC class without learning fireball at level 5. The problem with NPCs being always built as PCs is that people see "dwarf cleric" and their brains shut down and complain that dwarf society has no priests because it doesn't have anyone with cure light wounds on their spell list, and turn undead.

>>55376671
I'm just sick of people bickering about ascending vs. descending AC when they're just different ways of solving the same equation. Converting from one to the other is as easy as subtracting descending/ascending AC from 20 to get ascending/descending AC, and THAC0/attack bonus from 20 to get attack bonus/THAC0. So I figured we might as well argue over something where the underlying math is actually different.

>>55380537
>NPCs and monsters using PC-building rules is absurd and terrible game design.
I think it depends on the game and the rules. I don't think it's always a bad idea, but I also don't think it's always necessary.

>>55381302
>No character should ever be barred from learning a technique or skill of which they are physically capable of simply because they are not an NPC.
PCs in D&D are adventurers and all the classes are mechanically designed with this in mind. The game is about adventuring, so this specific focus makes sense. Most NPCs probably aren't going to be adventurers, so they don't need the same design scheme. Also, the system is built to challenge the PCs and maintain certain balances within the game (and certain progressions of power). This isn't something that needs to be a concern for the NPCs. NPCs are peripheral and a GM can just make up shit for them if they want. A GM can also make up shit for PC classes, but a lot more thought needs to be put into this. There are different requirements at play.

>>55381302
You'll probably be happier in /5eg/, no joke.

>>55382138
The *real* problem is THAC0.

Actually, sometimes I'm tempted to say fuck it and switch to Book of War. http://deltasdnd.blogspot.co.nz/2011/09/book-of-war-core-rules.html https://edowarsblog.wordpress.com/2017/09/04/castle-krom/ feels like a good move, or just using the actual book of war rules (at 1:1) and not the Castle Krom guy's 1d/HD thing. I mean, do you really need more armour classes than Unarmoured/Leather/Chain/Plate? Maybe a new attack die every... 2/3/4 levels for F/C/M-U? 3/4/5, perhaps.

Hey, guys, I'm just passing through to recommend that if you're playing a game that uses ascending AC, then use ascending AC, but if you're using a game that uses descending AC, then use descending AC. That advice may seem unreasonable at first, but it has always worked for me.

i just OD'd on my ADD meds and wrote an 8000 word novel plot template for my setting, and normally i can't even fucking read because my attention span is so bad. it's 5 AM now and I feel like i could do it all over again. is vyvanse the answer?

>>55361747
>As the others have said, Race as Class limits your options, but I think the more important aspect here is it forces your narrative. Dwarves and halflings do not know magic. It's simply not an option to them.
I think you're approaching the issue in the wrong way. B/X is built for a human-centric campaign world, and there are 4 human classes and 3 demi-human classes. So proportionally, that makes sense. If you want a campaign world that's less human-focused, then you'd probably want to add in some more demi-human classes (maybe 2 or even 3 each).

But it's not like all humans are magic-users, clerics, thieves and fighters. Those are just the base-level adventurer classes that are available to all PCs. If a DM wants to add new ones, tweak existing ones, or give special dispensations to particular characters, that's fine. Because of its simplicity, shit in Basic can easily be toolboxed to expand your range of options. If you don't want to do that and you don't want to play a minimalistic game, then AD&D is probably more your speed than Basic. Unfortunately, AD&D isn't as well put-together, in my opinion, and there are too many fiddly rules and restrictions that really don't add much to the game. So it's a flawed product, but there are games out there than streamline the bloat, like Labyrinth Lord's Advanced Edition Companion.

>>55382293
THAC0 is literally just what you need to hit an AC 0 target in a descending armor class system. If the math seems counterintuitive (seriously spell-check? you don't know counterintuitive?), then you should switch to ascending AC, as the math is baked into the system.

As for Book of War, it seems like a neat idea, but you'd have to keep things very minimalist, with no attribute, magic weapon, or situational bonuses to hit. That's going a bit too far for me. D6s don't give you much room to work with, and as a result, d6 systems usually end up jettisoning too much granularity for my taste.

>>55382481
>That's going a bit too far for me.
Yeah, it's meant for mass battle wargames, some weird people use it for other stuff though. In the actual wargame version, individual characters only come into play when they're level 10, anything lower is abstracted into units.

>>55382367
Jesus, what are you on man, and does that shady guy behind the hardware store sell them?

Currently downloading ZWEIHANDER, aka WHFRPG Classic.

Might run this as a one-shot sometime with my group, see what they think.

>>55378581
Your setting seems to be on fire.

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Hit me up with all your island hexcrawls and adventures. I'm making a campaign set in an archipelago and need all kinds of inspiration.

>>55383551
Hot Springs Island is the best island hexcrawl to date, start here.

>>55383641
Should I get both the field guide and the "dark of" book? Do you know if it's getting a physical release anytime soon?

>>55383708
It's released as of today: http://shop.swordfishislands.com/physical/ .
"The Dark" is the only mandatory book to run this setting. "The Guide" gives more detailed descriptions of the flora and fauna, as well as rumours for the players, it's a great addition. "The Guide" can also be used as a player handout if you wish to speed-up the low-level exploration and survival part of the campaign to skip directly to diplomacy and intrigue.

>>55383761
Damn, those books look really neat. Really expensive though. Are there any reviews of this thing so I'm sure I'm not getting something I'll dislike later?

>>55383805
I shared both PDFs in the PDF share thread #86 a few days ago, you can read them there:
>>55275851

>>55383831
Damn anon, thank you so much! I'm really liking the look of this thing so I'm really considering getting a physical copy of it.

>>55383946
There is only 50 copies for the first print run (excluding crowdfunding), don't wait too much.

>>55383831
>I shared

You're a beautiful man.

>>55376224
Honestly make me chuckle
You should remove "AC" from the shirts though

>>55382695
Vyvanse, it's prescribed

>>55382055
>You can be a priest without taking the Cleric class that grants you x HD and y spells from z list. You can be a mage who studies magic and spends ages crafting runes into items
That's fine and all, but the problem with Race as Class is, for example, you cannot be a dwarf and a mage mechanically with no justification for it. Which isn't even actually the core of the problem. If you wanna run Race as Class, that's fine. The problem in game design comes in when you as DM throw in Dwarf Mages. You break your narrative fiction, have built a player-available character in an impossible way, and have also given no reason why a PC Dwarf cannot learn magic when that is observably not true in your world that you've created.

Like I said before, it comes off as "That DM", like he's running a DMPC that can just do whatever the fuck he wants and the players just have to deal with it. I mean, there are dozens of stories I've read on /tg/ alone that specify a That Guy DM because That DM said "no/low magic" and then throws in his magic-using NPC

>>55382194
>The game is about adventuring, so this specific focus makes sense. Most NPCs probably aren't going to be adventurers, so they don't need the same design scheme.
Except for the fact that a large part of OSR and the appeal of D&D in general and why it still persists is the open freedom. If a player is physically capable of it, they should be able to do it. Race as Class is fine, but you inherently set up limitations by using it, such as saying "Dwarfs are incapable of learning magic or thieves skills", and when you break those limitations because "hurr durr I'm DM", then there's no longer a justifiable defense why a player cannot be a Dwarf Mage.

You can wax philosophical about game balance all you like, but the moment your narrative breaks the mechanics, then it's no longer about balance. You're demonstrating that your world will still hold together even if dwarves practice magic.

>>55385793
Anon, NPCs with weird abilities != toxic DMPCs: for starters, they usually do not follow the party around bent on overshadowing player characters with powers designed around monster-exclusive use and therefore unbalanced from their very conception.

>>55382259
>You'll probably be happier in /5eg/, no joke.
You would be sorely mistaken about that assessment my friend. I'm one of the people above who was actually siding with Gary on the idea that people should ideally only play humans, or at least only core 4. I'm absolutely not above limiting the player, but I know enough about game design to realize that limitation should not come at the cost of breaking your fictional narrative. It's one of the reasons why I choose OSR over anything else, honestly. It's one of the few game systems that mechanically back up it's fiction and style of play.

>>55382410
I think you've gotten completely side-tracked on your little rant to be honest. I'm one of the people above who argue WITH Gary Gygax on the side of keeping things between humans. But like I said to the other anon, I'm not afraid of limiting my players, but that limitation should NEVER come at the cost of breaking the narrative or mechanical fiction you've set up. If you run Race as Class, that's fine, but don't throw in halfling clerics all of a sudden and then try to act like there's nothing wrong with that idea.

>>55385793
>there's no longer a justifiable defense why a player cannot be a Dwarf Mage
dwarf mages do not go on adventures
pc go on adventures
therefore, there are dwarf mages, yet no pc dwarf mages
done

>>55385360
I take the same bro. Try not to take more than your prescribed dose though honestly, It's not good for you.

>>55385905
yeah I was just having a rough night. thanks though. cheers

>>55385793
>built a player-available character
That's where you went wrong. Dwarf Mage is not a player-avalible character - Dwarf is.

>>55385880
>NPCs with weird abilities != toxic DMPCs
False equivalency. Magic-Users are not "weird abilities". If you throw out a Dwarf Mage, that is inherently different from say, giving someone basilisk eyes or a ghoul touch attack. Magic-Using is a learned thing, and with Race as Class, the only justification for your Dwarfs being unable to be magic-users as well is that Dwarfs are physically incapable of that. Show the players that this isn't true, and you are frankly That DM.

>>55385904
>dwarf mages do not go on adventures
Why? There's no justification for this. I'm a Dwarf PC, I now want to learn magic, and I also wish to continue adventuring. What's stopping me other than you being That Guy?

>>55385939
Yes, a failure on your part. Anything else?

>>55385793
Hoesntly, I agree with you. I think the way that most sane people handle this when using race-as-class is to either say that there aren't dwarf mages, or to say that dwarven magic is weird and different and doesn;t really work for adventuring. Like rune magic or that they can enchant magic items.

Then if the PC's want to get involved in weird dwarf magic, you can make up some shit and have a better campaign with more fun shit for the players to interact with.

>>55385973
>Then if the PC's want to get involved in weird dwarf magic, you can make up some shit and have a better campaign with more fun shit for the players to interact with.
See, this is fine in my opinion. If you throw out magic that dwarfs can learn, let them learn it. But in my opinion, at that point you're far, far better off just playing race/class separated so you can just have dwarf magi, unless you're the type of person who just enjoys developing strange forms of magic that actually cannot work for adventuring (which is a silly idea. Give the players the stupidest of ideas and they WILL come up with a way to kill someone with it).

>>55386032
See to me that sound like a staple of the OSR genre.

Here are some magic glow in the dark fish that fish that no one who created them ever expected to not be used in a lobby. Now the players can figure out cool ways to kill people with them, use them as a trap or distraction, etc.

It's the sandbox elements of play. I don't mind saying that dwarven magic is all runes and magic items, and that it takes years to complete a single rune. If the players are able to figure out a way to take advantage of that situation, then that is because they are great players and deserve the advantage. Maybe just knowing runes earns you respect in dwarven community, Maybe they can pass old magic items as one of the party's new creations in some convoluted plot to steal something or gain some monster or faction's trust.

I don't think it's a major issue of race-as-class though, so much as people arbitrarily enforcing certain aspects of the game in ways that don't make sense and are less fun.

>>55385955
> I'm a Dwarf PC, I now want to learn magic, and I also wish to continue adventuring. What's stopping me other than you being That Guy?
"Dwarves can only work magic in the form of supernaturally excellent smithing, which takes a lifetime of dedicated study"
"Elves existed long before the gods, and thus they're approached with suspicion and fear from them, disallowing the usage of divine magic"
Honestly, if the DM is using a race-as-class system and you immediately start complaining because you want to play a dwarf thief, that's ACTUAL That Guy material

>>55385955
>I now want to learn magic, and I also wish to continue adventuring. What's stopping me other than you being That Guy?
Dwarf Mage not being a player class. As a Dwarf, the only dispposition that provides you with a reason to go adventuring is being Dwarf [Race as Class] - that is, belonging to the kind of Dwarfs that become a player class. If you were not Dwarf [RAC], you would have stayed home, say, spending dozens of years crafting magic items. Magic of a certain NPC Dwarf Mage can be compared to the magical abilty of PC Magic-User as a duke's inherited fiefdom can be compared to the Fighter's fortress, since a player character cannot be a palace-dwelling, tax-collecting, intrigue-spinning 0th-level NPC duke, but they can be a 9th-level Fighter.
> Magic-Users are not "weird abilities"
MUs are PCs who get XP for GP, progress in levels and cast MU spells. A Dwarf Mage is an NPC who does not get XP for GP, does not progress in levels, yet still casts MU spells, much like that duke merrily collecting taxes without lifting the sword and leaving that 0th-level.
Know the difference!

>>55386227
Also, I do agree with those anons who say that casting classical MU spells for a Dwarf Mage might be optional: they might as well spent years on runecarving or NPC shenanigans, maybe even with a small proprietary spell list that can be partially ripped by players who somehow learn the notation.

>>55386115
>I don't think it's a major issue of race-as-class though
I've also just realized that we're also ignoring an issue of balance though. Races in Race as Class aren't without class. Halfling and Dwarf have the Fighter built into them, and Elf is a Fighter/Magic-User. If you start giving the dwarfs Dwarf-Flavored-Magic, then you just turned the Dwarf into a Fighter + More.

>>55386130
>"Dwarves can only work magic in the form of supernaturally excellent smithing, which takes a lifetime of dedicated study"
"What about that guy using that magic right now? He's obviously not studying right now and can use that magic. Besides, you didn't read my backstory. I said I studied blacksmithing, I should have been aware that magic was available as my Dwarf is intelligent and for sure would have used it to supplement his abilities. I wanna be like that guy too. Why can't I?"
>"Elves existed long before the gods, and thus they're approached with suspicion and fear from them, disallowing the usage of divine magic"
"Yeah, but your Elf just cast bless, meaning my elf could do it. Fuck your suspicion and fuck your fear, lemme cast Inflict Wounds."
Trivial, really.

>Honestly, if the DM is using a race-as-class system and you immediately start complaining because you want to play a dwarf thief, that's ACTUAL That Guy material
Nice strawman deflection. Too bad for you, that's not what my intentions or statements reflect.

>>55362127
>tfw the hard limit is your only argument
>but I see negative AC all the time
If people can deal with negative AC and stay reasonable then they can deal with reasonable AC over 20 too

>>55386227
>As a Dwarf, the only dispposition that provides you with a reason to go adventuring is being Dwarf [Race as Class]
What? No, fuck you, you can't decide my characters motivations for me.
"I studied as a Dwarven Mage under the NPC you just threw out, or one of his predecessors/successors, and now I want to go adventuring. Fuck this bologna about staying home and crafting shit, I'm gonna fight monsters, where's my character sheet?"
Or if that argument is a little too reducto for you, the point I'm making is you're being thought police to character creation. I'LL decide what motivates my character into adventure and what he was doing before that. YOUR job is to adjudicate rules neutrally.
Esepcially this line:
>since a player character cannot be a palace-dwelling, tax-collecting, intrigue-spinning
None of those adjectives prevent me from adventuring.

>A Dwarf Mage is an NPC who does not get XP for GP
Also incorrect on it's basis. NPC hirlings and retainers also earn XP and can advance levels. You're making very silly equivalencies here.

>>55362458
So he pummeled some rich guys at the bar and the loot let him put some time into carousing and training and outfitting himself. Case closed.

>>55386317
>"What about that guy using that magic right now? He's obviously not studying right now and can use that magic.
This situation doesn't happen because dwarvish magic-users as per the player class don't exist.
>Besides, you didn't read my backstory. I said I studied blacksmithing, I should have been aware that magic was available as my Dwarf is intelligent and for sure would have used it to supplement his abilities. I wanna be like that guy too. Why can't I?"
Because, as your dwarf is here and not in an apprenticeship elsewhere, he must necessarily be the equivalent of a high school drop-out by dwarf mage standards. Even if he were very intelligent, other initiates would likely see him as squandered potential
>"Yeah, but your Elf just cast bless, meaning my elf could do it. Fuck your suspicion and fuck your fear, lemme cast Inflict Wounds."
I don't think you're getting the point. The classes d o n 't e x i s t and they will never get used, either by the DM or the players
>Nice strawman deflection. Too bad for you, that's not what my intentions or statements reflect.
Not really

>>55386317
>He's obviously not studying right now and can use that magic
He has studied yesterday, and will study tomorrow, when you leave for the murderhole
>I should have been aware that magic was available as my Dwarf is intelligent and for sure would have used it to supplement his abilities.
If he was capable of studying magic, and persisted in his study, he would have ended up as a NPC Dwarf Mage. Since he is a PC Dwarf [RAC], which is the only way to be a playable Dwarf, it is safe to say that something went amiss.

>>55386403
>This situation doesn't happen because dwarvish magic-users as per the player class don't exist.
Again, why? You've just shown me a Dwarf Mage. I wanna play him. You obviously made rules for that NPC, why can't I play him other than you're a terrible DM?
>Because, as your dwarf is here and not in an apprenticeship elsewhere, he must necessarily be the equivalent of a high school drop-out by dwarf mage standards. Even if he were very intelligent, other initiates would likely see him as squandered potential
No he's not, my dwarf is considered above "over the hill", and now want's to adventure. What's stopping him.
>I don't think you're getting the point. The classes d o n 't e x i s t and they will never get used, either by the DM or the players
The classes don't exist even though you're using them because y o u r a s h i t and I would rather have a story DM over you.
>Not really
Not an argument. State when I said that or drop this point.

>>55386514
>He has studied yesterday, and will study tomorrow, when you leave for the murderhole
"But he clearly has breaks. There's no reason I can't be in the dungeon during the summer or even just the weekend."
>If he was capable of studying magic, and persisted in his study, he would have ended up as a NPC Dwarf Mage. Since he is a PC Dwarf [RAC], which is the only way to be a playable Dwarf, it is safe to say that something went amiss.
My dwarf was written to be perfectly capable of studying magic. In fact, my dwarf is this guys' apprentice. But then this apprentice, after having fully learned the magic to a competent level, decided that he can go into dungeons and make money faster that way. There's now a backstory, motive, and incentive for my dwarf to be a mage and adventurer. What has gone amiss here?

>>55386572
>You obviously made rules for that NPC
No I didn't, though I may spitball something up as to how their item creation works if you ever were in the situation of using the services of one
>No he's not, my dwarf is considered above "over the hill", and now want's to adventure. What's stopping him.
If he were, he'd be pushing the limits of a dwarf's natural lifespan and far too old to take up the path of a warrior. Not to mention I'd have to let you create powerful magic items to maintain internal consistency, and that's not happening
>Not an argument. State when I said that or drop this point.
You've been talking about a hypothetical bad DM that doesn't let you use race-and-class for an hour, besides treating race-as-class as an unforgivable sin against game design
>The classes don't exist even though you're using them because y o u r a s h i t
No, I am not using them. There are no elven clerics and no elves can use the cleric spell list, period, and dwarf mages have no actual magic-user class levels

The only reason this is a problem is that you're framing a situation where I am being a hypocrite, while I am also unambiguously stating this wouldn't happen.

New thread!
>>55386753
>>55386753
>>55386753