/CofD/ & /wodg/ Chronicles of Darkness and World of Darkness

>>55010052
>Have you ever run game not set in the present?
We ran an 1980's mortals game, once. By the end everyone was hooked on coke and assumed it gave them magic powers. If we weren't all Priests trying to exorcise 'ghosts' and 'vile spirits' from prostitutes to track down the 'archdemon' it might not have been so jarring.

How sure are we that there aren't aliens who have ascended way before the Exarchs? Maybe they are the reason why the Exarchs can't just go ham on reality

How long before the magefags shit up this thread, you think?

>>55010154
I'd imagine, going by WoD's retarded themes, that humans are the only ones able to become Mages.

>Humanity Fuck Yeah

>>55010157
>How long before the magefags shit up this thread, you think?

Is that a challenge?

>>55010177
That would be highly disappointing if true unless they decide to go with humans are actually the first sapient species in the galaxy or something

>>55010193
Please no

>>55010208
Disappointing? Maybe, if not irrelevant. I could actually see Mages being THE universal Template.

>>55010157
>implying magefags shit it up
Do they force you to engage them instead of pushing your own discussions?

>>55010177
Become Mages? Yes. Wield Supernal magic? Not necessarily.

Why can't we go back to the idea that drinking from Mages makes Vampires trip balls?

Have I missed any new news on scion since that person spoiled lover knacks and the sun and moon purviews?

>>55010340
Because Vampires don't deserve the blood of the Wise

>>55010208

The universe is a lot bigger than a single Galaxy.

>>55010393
No shit genius. Most fiction doesn't get into universal because the scale is so much higher than what we can comprehend. The galaxy is already big enough

If Mages can potentially beat up everything in the canon setting, why haven't they made some sort of galactic empire of wizards yet?

Or maybe they already did during the days of Atlantis?

>>55010527
Atlantis never existed, except when it did, but now it didn't.

Remember
Something something something something magefags, something something something a Demon something a crowd.

>>55010508

what crawled up your anus and died?

>>55010527

>The Imperium of Magekind

>>55010527
>why haven't they made some sort of galactic empire of wizards yet?

Have you missed the part of the setting where the Exarchs already won and control reality.

In the CofD, everyone is living in tyrannical mage empire, they just don't realize it. That's the whole point of the Lie.

>>55010527
Even if Mages wanted to go to space, I don't see how it would be really feasible. Even with Archmastery, it would take some doing. Mages aren't as easily spacebound in Awakening like they are in Ascension.

Darth Obrimos find your lack of faith in mage supremacy very disturbing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m0XuKORufGk

>>55010733

Read the Thrice Great legacy.

They visit the spirit courts outside of earth.

>>55010750
>Darth Obrimos

>Grand Moff Mastigos?

What the Fuck? So they retconned the uratha into being around during Father Wolf's rain instead of after it?

>>55010904
Sundered World retcons a lot of stuff.

But to be honest, everything before was just legends. So feel free to play it how you want.

>>55010904
No? They existed back then, obviously, and they made that period into a setting.

How did caveman Mages protect humanity with Paradox and Quiescence? Where the fuck were the Watchtowers? Was this before the Abyss?

>>55010947

You really need to read Sundered World. Your questions are addressed.

With respect to werewolves, Sundered World raises other questions. For instance, werewolves were vulnerable to silver before the death of Father Wold and the Sundering.

>>55010947
No watchtowers. So while the Exarchs likely existed (because Atlantis had fallen), whoever set up the watchtowers hadn't done it yet.

It is implied that the spots where they would be built already exist, with grand objects at each one to represent the location it will be constructed.

Also, they didn't do it alone. It isn't like there were only Mages in the sundered world.

>>55010355
Don't think so.

>>55010979
But I'm a lazy bastard. Can you give me a rundown?

>>55010983
I thought the Watchtowers weren't actual things?

That also doesn't explain Quiescence. How could the Mages protect their brethren with that going on?

>>55010988

The Queiscence was still around, and like today, the Wise just avoided sleepers witnessing their magic.

Paradox wasn't as bad, although it's hardly crippling in the present.

Wait, I thought the Watchtowers were erected at the same time Atlantis fell, otherwise nobody could become Mages?

Awakening lore is confusing.

>>55011014
Same way as usual. Don't do your magic in front of them.

They give a smalltime example.
A spirit is messing with the cattle, poisoning them.
To the village, it looks like the mage goes out, sacrifices one, and does some witch doctor stuff, then goes back home.

In fact the mage is investigating, putting on a little show, and then goes back to their demense in their hut so they can work their magic in peace and figure out the mystery.

Most of the heavy action happens outside the villages.

The villages also have protections well beyond their mages. The potters (that's why I mentioned them last thread) weave supernal/magic words into amulets and pottery to protect the villages. People have amulets in their hut foundations, amulets at the edge of the village, amulets they carry on them, etc etc.

So the villages themselves stay safe because they are warded, protected, and watched. They all band around the fires because the fire keeps just plain dickish 5000BCE animals at bay.

But that also means that Fire Spirits love humanity in this time, and in the spirit the villages are defended by fire spirits on top of all the mage wards and potter wards.

>>55011056
The Watchtowers were erected in the pre-history of Atlantis.

Which means that they're likely adaptive, and our perception of them is either coloured by whichever symbols we can parse, and currently exist on our timeline, or the less likely possibility that the Oracles are busy constructing them as time progresses.

tl;dr
Watchtowers were last thing that occured in the pre-history.
So in our current iteration of the universe, they've always existed.

>>55011056
In other words DaveB is a hack as >>55011156 demonstrates

>>55011156
>>55011056
See the problem is that Atlantis was retconned out of existence (not literally. But like, it falling means that as far as history is concerned, it didn't exist).

So that might mean that for the supernal as well, while it did exist (and the markers in the realms are a sign of that), they didn't exist at that time because atlantis didn't.

Are Mages stronger in the Sundering? I recall that Supernal magic is in decline in current times and that it was more potent in the past.

>>55011226
By the rules, no.

There are also more mages as a percentage of the population.

What is your favorite Fera?

>>55011598
Platypus

>>55011621

Now anon, no one likes power gamers who abused weird splats.

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>>55010157

>>55011014
>I thought the Watchtowers weren't actual things?
Yeah, but in the same way that the Supernal isn't an actual place. They exist, but we just interpret them as Watchtowers. The towers appear differently to different people anyway, iirc.

How likely is it for a hunter to change conspiracies? Obviously if you defect from Cheiron to join Valkyrie, you'd have issues, but could you move between VASCU and Valkyrie?

>>55011693
Depends did you suck off a mage?

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Ok which one of the splatfags does this look like?

>>55011973
High wyrd wood elemental or wizened changeling.

>>55011973
Firetouched werewolf (Forsaken propagandist's impression)

>>55011973
Life mage who fucked around a little to much
Or those bad guy promethians, whatever those are called
Possibly devient, let's find out

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Alright guys my group happened to piss off our ST by never sticking to his narratives and making his job harder during our DtD campaign. So for this one he is just making it combat heavy. Apparently our characters pissed off an archmage ;which obviously represents our ST , so he has decided to send all sorts of supernaturals to hunt us anything from werewolf alpha packs to newly awakened mummies. Never made a demon built for combat so which exploits and embeds should I be looking at?

>>55012556
>doubt

>>55012575
What?

>>55012556
Oh, not even a Loud Demon is going to do anything to an Archmage.

I hope for your sake the Archmage is merely a troll.

>>55012618

>Archtroll

>>55012618
We aren't fighting the archmage the whole reason he is using the other splats because he isn't allowed to interact directly. It's just a shitty reason for why we have to fight woofs beasts and mages and stuff

>>55010979
Sundered world is fucking shit. Matriarchal societies never fucking existed. Call me pol all you want but archeology tells the truth. The only matriarchal mammalian societies in nature are ones where either males are absent since they leave on their own like elephants or the females are bigger and more aggressive like hyenas

>>55012961
It's a world of darkness, anon

>>55013025
>woman ruled world
Truly a World of Darkness

>>55012556
Merciless Gunman
Just Bruised
Check Backdrop
Hellfire
Stop.
Pick up Rivet Gun, Inhuman Reflexes, Reapers Breath, Plasma Drive and Wound Healing.
Congrats you win every fight unless you're up against a cheese build Mage, Werewolf or Geist.

>>55012961
Wait what? Sundered World is a fucking femdom?

>>55013101
>>55012961
>Society with no rulers
>Just old women who give elder advice
>MUH FEMDOM!

>>55013163
>implying old men don't also give advice

>>55013082
>No multiversal antenna
>No Amphorous form
>No Deathgrip
>No Show of Power
Try again and apply yourself anon before giving build advice.

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>>55013163

>>55012961
Feminists tend to disregard history in relation to past societies.

That said, I don't think the intent of Sundered World was due to that.

>>55013204
This is... Bizarre...

Is that just one tribe or some such? Or is it all matriarchal fanfiction?

>>55013204
Shit, I'd listen to what some old hag had to say if not listening meant I'd wake up with a ghost snake in my bed. No, officer, no metaphor here.

>>55013204
Fucking hilarious, that.

>>55013204
Thanks, exactly what I said.
>No aristocracy
>No Chieftains
>Elder guides

They have matrilineal families, which have existed in the real world.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_matrilineal_or_matrilocal_societies

It isn't some woman telling everyone what to do. They are just given the utmost respect, and their wisdom is generally followed. But since no one rules the villages of The People, you could just be like 'naw, I'm doing this instead'. The worst you get is bird poop all over your hut.

>Muh SJW boogeyman!

>>55013082
>not taking Terrible Form merit to get sicker Demonic Form
>not getting fucking sight limited teleportation with Teleportation
>not taking Acidic Spit for versatile medium and melee range aggravated damage
>not taking wound healing to get regen only slightly worse than a woof
>not picking Mechanical Arms to ensure you can always grapple and acidic bite your enemies
>not getting Steel Frame to get rid of wound penalties
>not getting Show of Power
>not getting Knockout Punch
>not getting the fucking MOMENTUM
>not abusing the fuck out of the Victory at any Price
>not taking Breaking the Dam just because it is metal as fuck


You can make a demon form that can take a werewolf in hand to hand. And possibly win. Fuck, you can make a hybrid that will deal aggravated damage at long, medium and melee range at the char-gen.

True matriarchies have never existed
You will get railed for saying it though

Dumb topic

In light of the most ridiculous, left-wing, radical feminist intersectional nonsense that's been published by WW and OPP, if that small, likely historically accurate, bit from Sundered World bothers you so, you really need to calm down, get some perspective and stop looking for problems.

>>55013331
It's accurate in a sense, from what I've gathered. If a bit silly.

>>55013331
I think someone is just actually reading Sundered World. You can tell because whenever they get to certain sections of it, they make a troll post related to what they are finding.

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>>55013331
>If xer zher or zhe bothers you instead of normal wod shit than you have problems

>>55013355
First I am reading it because the thread suggested to reading it and secondly my posts aren't troll posts numale

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>>55013275
>Wikipedia

>>55013386
Either you are purposely reading stuff wrong to troll, or you're too stupid to live. Your choice. Because seeing an entry about elder women who guide villages and going OH NO MATRIARCHIES! is literally retarded.

geist info when

I wonder if I can translate my 1e character seamlessly to 2e

>>55013479
no

>>55013479
Is your character a reaper? Does zhe specialize in boneyard? If so prepare to get triggered

>>55013498
yes

>>55013366

Can you read above a junior high school level?

OPP and WW books are rife with ridiculous left-wing, radical feminist tropes and similar garbage, including the offensive sidebar from Moral Remains, but not everything in the books is such drivel. Don't look for problems. There's enough real material to criticize and mocl.

The section of Sundered World is not offensive or political, and reflects historical accuracy. Get a grip.

If you're "triggered" by anything depicting female leadership in any capacity, you're either a troll looking for problems, totally ignorant of history, or just the type of ridiculous misogynist that actually makes the nutty OPP SJW's look reasonable.

>>55013505
You sir are in for a long night cry wanking into a mirror if you think you'll seamlessly convert from 1e to 2e.

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>>55013505
>seamlessly

Fucking no.

>>55013536
It will be painful for them, but maybe they will get a playable character for a playable splat. So that would be a plus.

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>>55010393
Unlike interest in White Wolf's booth at Gencon.

>>55013574

KEK

>>55013574
The only way white wolf is ever gonna get any interest is if they tease a VtMB sequel

>>55013574
They've fucking ruined themselves. It's all their fault, really.
So much pretentious 90s bullshit.

They don't know how to properly bring back past decades back to the forefront, and now they're suffering for it.

Serves them right.

>>55013574
Wait, white wolf is still a thing separate from OP?
....what do they even write?

>>55013707
crap

>>55013707
WW resurfaced really.

They own the owod stuff.

>>55013707
Shit about dogs n cats.

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>>55013786
No joke.

>>55013801
This says Onyx Path though

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>>55013502
He mostly focuses on Marionette and Caul. He's a Bonepicker

>>55013786
Idiot, that's Onyx Path.

White Wolf just makes oWoD.

>>55013744
>>55013864
Like the 20th stuff?

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>>55013855
Hey I think I've seen that guy around

>>55013896
yeah probably I spam him in this thread to see if anyone wants to talk about geist or anything not mage related

>>55013946
I like talking about geist. What keys do you use, what is your Sin Eaters purpose?

>>55013874
I think 20th is OP's last round of oWoD stuff while WW makes 5th edition.

I don't know the details, because it is owod stuff, so who cares.

>>55013786
>>55013801
>not wanting to play an aristocratic pug and go on comfy post-apocalyptic adventures
Who /pugmire/ here?

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>>55013977
He uses passion and industrial keys primarily with his manifestations. he recently picked up cold wind. like I said earlier, he uses marionette and caul the most, he likes using the former to drive his car without actually driving it. it's an old el dorado.

I guess his purpose is to help the living and the dead and make a living doing it. he's not above hamming up a haunted place using his abilities if a client is less than ideal but he's a good person most of the time.

his geist, in life, was a young japanese woman rising through the art world when her partner got jealous of all the attention she got from being discovered and locked her in a chest as punishment but she suffocated. she's an onryo. her keystone is her favorite old paintbrush and when he summons it, he can use it and it never runs out of paint. the writings can be visible, invisible, etc

>>55014070
>(((post-apocalypse))) that's actually fantasy in a funny hat
>based on 5e
Put it in a bin.

Back to reading Mummy.

Got through the Mesen-Nebu:
Almost fell asleep. Such a boring guild. It was hard to keep track of whether they were the accountants, or the politicians, or just show offs. It doesn't matter, I guess. Their abilities in the end become 'I can have extra armor, and spook people' because they can transmute their skin to metal. Cool I guess.

Wouldn't be my first or second choice.

>>55014116
Is he forgotten or torn?

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>>55014255
Forgotten. He chose to interpret his death as complete random chance which sort of influenced him to be a bonepicker.

He was driving home after work one day in a torrential downpour. his car hydroplaned and crashed in to a power line on the side of the road, it was completely totaled. miraculously he survived.

he stepped outside to assess the damage and call for help and one of the wires from the downed power line snaked around and whipped him in the back. he was shocked and died

he has the suits tattooed on his forearm because he's basic.

throughout the campaign he got more tattoos but I haven't gotten a new piece of him done yet

>>55013993
Oh. So they've put out nothing for the past like decade then?

>>55014175
Their big deal is that they see wealth/beauty as a mystical force. A pretty woman has Dedwen, a pile of gold has Dedwen, and the right sorcery can turn one kind of Dedwen into another.

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>>55014328
Looks like Joshuu if he got rid of his hair. Also your character must suck at combat with only those keys and manifestations.

>>55014478
I mean, yeah. But they took a real roundabout way to get to that.

>>55014175
On to the Sesha Hebsu:
Man reading Mummy lore while tired is a bad idea. Maybe it is the best idea, I'll be able to pass out easy after this.

Either way, here goes a real political faction. They can judge truth, investigate matters, find killers. All because they were the ancient 'officials' of Irem.

I really really hope this isn't the only 'aura-reading' ability mummies get, because their Eyes affinity is pretty lame.

>>55014563
The Judge guild is the only one with a standard of conduct you can be kicked out for falling short of.

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>>55013598
No lie I'd play the shit uot of a sequel even if it was terrible
>>55013618
WW is no longer the only game in town. Pun intended. And they're are starting to find themselves less and less relevant They're are plenty of different devs rolling along with different settings and systems.

>>55014584
90s pulp is an interesting theme, they just suck at it. They've always sucked at it.

>>55014490
He does suck at combat. He usually talks his way out of everything but someone in his krewe is the heavy hitter. Dumb as a bag of hair, but she really can fuck things up

>>55014563
Su-menent time:
Priest guild. Nuff' said...
Okay, they believe in focus on your goals. I mean, that makes sense. They used to be celibate so they wouldn't falter from their course. Now they are mummies and are all infertile anyway, so they have to make everyone else unhappy because they didn't get laid 5000 years ago. A real shame.

Their ability is one of the stronger ones. Helping with healing, as well as upping their resistance. Which is interesting.

>>55015074
The game too much assumes that mummies will become disloyal as Memory rises. The Priests seem most likely to be steadfast, but I think they all should have the chance.

>>55014070
Yeah, Pugmire is pretty fun.

>>55014332
That's right. White Wolf was bought out by the Icelandic sociopaths who make EVE Online, ostensibly so they could make an MMO using the IPs, though after a hilariously botched and extended period of development nothing came of it. They let the books side of things limp along for a while but it was badly mismanaged and they eventually cancelled everything. Onyx Path was formed by former White Wolf employees to keep the IPs going. A couple (Aeon, Scion, and I think Scarred Lands) were purchased outright. Most, however, stayed the property of White Wolf, which, again. was owned by CCP. That means that Onyx Path licensed the right to publish supplements for World of Darkness and Exalted from the owners and that those releases were subject to approval (though it's my impression that CCP didn't really give a crap what they did).

Recently, CCP sold White Wolf to these unbelievable nerds from Sweden at a company called Paradox. They now own all the titles still owned by White Wolf, including both World of Darkness lines and Exalted. They have given permission to Onyx Path (for the time being) to continue to publish material for 20th Anniversary, CofD (renamed so as not to compete with Paradox's own "One World of Darkness") and the rest, but plans for a new edition of WoD by Onyx Path were cancelled.

>>55015264
Are you telling me ALL of the games rest in the hands of Swedish Dracula?

>>55015295
Except for the ones Onyx Path owns outright, like Trinity and Scion and their original ones, yeah, legally they do.

Fortunately, the Paradox folks don't seem to give a fuck about anything but oWoD and have been super chill about it so far.

>>55015295
I thought this was already widely known?

White Wolf is doomed, friend.

>>55015354
I thought CofD would be safe at least.

>>55015130
It is kind of goofy. On one hand, the guild sections seem like it assumes you are going to try to break away from the judges. Then again, every Apotheosis section is like 'naaaah, they don't really think about it' except one (I want to say Sesha-Hebsu)

The game goes a long way to build up a few commonalities between the guilds that almost makes your choice feel pointless.

All of the guilds were merit based, shunning even their own family! The first time I read that, 'whoa'. The fifth time 'yeah yeah I get it.' The mummies come from the working class, not the sorcerers, I get it!

The Tef-Abhi are no different:
The face guild, it seems. These guys look like they want to be in charge. They take from all the other guilds, and make stuff better. They adapt well to new situations. They have the superiority complex. All of that SCREAMS leader group, right? Think Ventrue and Invictus, Storm Lords, Draconic.

But at the end of the day, that isn't too important here because their ability doesn't really relate to it, and their guild isn't defacto leaders. So, I guess they... aaaaaaren't the leader guild?

>>55015405
They can design mummy tombs, and mummies live forever so they need new tombs from time to time. For example, every mummy in the New World had to get a new tomb together on the other side of the ocean.

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So I've been out of the loop for a couple weeks. I guess the next Chronicles of Darkness game is a Shotaro Ishinomori pastiche?

I didn't expect it but I'm not complaining.

>>55015405
Read the judges:

WHY ARE THERE SO MANY, PLEASE JESUS HAVE MERCY ON ME! HOW ARE YOU EVEN SUPPOSED TO CHOOSE? WHY DO THEY COME BEFORE I EVEN KNOW WHAT PILLARS AND DECREES DO? THIS INFORMATION IS USELESS TO ME!

Heh, ithyphallic. Funny.

>>55015688
When I first heard about Mummy, I thought it was going to be super easy to start, maybe even to the point where all chargen happens in play. That opportunity got missed hard.

>>55015704
Yeah, they made it seem like that with their 'why bother making a backstory you can't remember' business.

But now the burden has been shifted off to other parts of chargen.

I still don't even understand the judge choice yet.

Do I choose a judge that represents what my character did? Like if my character was a chronic masturbator, do I choose the judge of despoiling your own body? Or do I only choose that judge if masturbation is what my arisen hates most in the world, to join in that judges wank-hating cause?

>>55015750
As near as I can tell, a judge whose sin you didn't do too much will accept you, but once you're a mummy you can sin as much as you like, but the judge might like it if you punished OTHER sinners while you do?

They spend so much time introducing the judges and not enough making them matter.

Is there a reason why uratha are weak to silver in the sundered world? I thought the silver weakness was a curse from Luna for killing Father Wolf.

>>55015818
Yeah, it turns out silver bane has always been the price of the moon's blessing and the idea that it's a punishment is bullshit, probably Pure propaganda. See Dark Eras p. 59.

>>55015818
It seems to just be a bane that applies to the Uratha's spirit side. That is, if your game believes in the Sundered World setting, feel free to keep it as Luna's curse.

Mind you, that story never worked 100% anyway since the Pure have an even stronger allergy, despite NOT betraying father wolf. But because they tore out their auspice. So what, Luna was like 'good boys, not killing your dad. BUT SCREW YOU EVEN MORE FOR NOT HAVING AN AUSPICE!' or something?

>>55015818
>>55015843
Or maybe it's just a dumb writers decision for the sake of balance. Uratha would be almost impossible to kill without the silver weakness in sundered world games.

What are some creative and cruel ways a matter mage could use silver against a werewolf?

>>55015884
No the curse affected the pure more because unlike the forsaken they refused to take up Father Wolf's mission as Luna instructed them to.

>>55015912
At the end of the day, it is all legend, and therefore probably all lies. THAT sounds like Pure propaganda.

"Man we are so cool, so good, we didn't even take up Father Wolf's dumb mission after he died. Screw that, we should be leaders, not stupid protectors of squishy humans. That's why Luna cursed us, right guys? Because we didn't do dad's stupid bidding."

>>55015264
Thank you, haven't seen it laid out like this.
Just to be clear, World of Darkness and exalted rights go paradox to White Wolf to Onyx Path at this point?

>>55015911
Turn their bones into silver but that takes dots in life. You could also turn the minerals in his body too silver.

>>55015911
Life, Matter & Forces, become a living twister of silver fire.

Not much they can do. A very bad way to go for any Pack.

>>55015911
Silver razor blades in apples.

>>55015995
To do that would take a 5 In matter 4 in life and 5 in forces.

>>55016026
Five? No. This is Patterning. You're transitioning states and qualities, not outright Making them.

>>55016037
Where is the silver fire coming from? Actually what is silver fire.

>>55015966
Yeah. The rights are licensed to Onyx Path by White Wolf, which is owned by Paradox. It looks like White Wolf has a lot of autonomy from its parent company and, though, and the new White Wolf guys seem to have been pretty cool to the the Onyx Path folks. Or to at least to Rich Thomas. It's possible that they had a hand in some of the recent staff shakeups, but if they did we'd never know. Apart from the cancellation of the plans for a new edition of oWoD by Onyx Path, which seems to have been very preliminary, there has been little if any visible, provable disruption to the lines Onyx Path publishes. At least as far as I know.

>>55016059
>what is silver fire
Fire given the qualities of silver. It might not even require Patterning, more so Weaving. Maybe.

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>>55015895

>>55015995
>a living twister of silver fire

Life 4
Forces 4
Matter 3

>>55016059
Imagine a humanoid figure of made of silver that great gouts of blue-white fire erupt bathing the surrounding area with intense heat and silver light.

>>55016083
That definitely isn't weaving. But to create fire from nothing requires making same as creating silver from nothing.

>>55016095
Ok but how many mages are going to have two arcanum at 4 dots

>>55016116
No, you're transforming something into something else. That's Patterning.
To give something else another quality is Weaving.

No Making is involved in this.

>>55016059
>Where is the silver fire coming from?
Not him, but he's right. It only takes Making to conjure something from nothing. Changing something from being one thing to another is Patterning. You're changing your body (Life) to be fire (Forces) with the symbolic properties of silver (Matter).

It's basically Fiery Transformation from 1e with an extra modifier, and Fiery Transformation was Life 4 and Forces 4. So you would just add in Matter.

>>55016095
Life and Matter have to be 4. Forces could possibly be 3 but I'd side with 4.

>>55016118
That probably isn't that uncommon to be honest

>>55016118
Starting at 3/2/1 quite afew, its only 12 exps or 60 beats. 8 beats a session...

>>55016116
You aren't making it from nothing. You're changing your body into it. That's what Patterning is all about, rewriting Patterns to change things. Patterning allows you to change something under the purview of an Arcanum into something else in that Arcanum, and if you're crossing purviews you need Patterning for all of the involved Arcana.

>>55016155
I'd say Forces would be 4, as you're, quite plainly, turning yourself into fire.

Adding in the *quality* of silver would probably be 3 dots.
Unless you literally want to make the fire silver, in which case it would indeed be 4.

>>55016163
Not so anymore, you only need whatever you are turning into, see deaths shadowform, you dont need life for that.

>>55016192
This was brought up before. You don't need Life for that because you're bringing yourself to nothingness, in a sense. Death is what comes after Life, so its not needed.

>>55016095
>>55016155
I'd assume you would need 4 in life, matter and forces. You need life 4 and forces 4 to be living fire and I guess matter 4 to change into silver? Can you even make up shit that doesn't exist like silver fire?

>>55016161

8 beats a session seems a tad stingy. I try to set my games to have a potential 5 experiences/ 25 beats per session.

With my players typically earning anywhere from 2-4 experiences.

>>55016206

see >>55016188

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>>55016118
You can literally go to safe area and bombard yourself with conditions than resolving them for quick easy exp. Even better if you have a partner to help you. Fucking zenkai boosts and shit.

>>55016199
I go with the house rule/head canon that the subtle arcana can transform a person into something within their purview (e.g. death to run someone into a shadow, spirit to jump into twilight, etc.) without the use of a conjunctional arcana due to the nature of the soul.

The magic is fiddling with an aspect of something that's already there.

>>55016236
So you can make fake things like silver fire? So I can make poop fire or porn fire or water fire or even time fire ?

Is it fune to just give xp as I deem fit and not bother with Beats?

>>55016284
Yes, you can give the feces inside a person's bowels the qualities of fire.

It's going to hurt. A lot.

>>55016192
Death already directly affects living things as a matter of course.

p.124
"Patterning spells allow a mage to completely transform a
target into something else that falls under the Arcanum’s purview.
A memory can be replaced wholesale (Mind), the mage
can turn herself (or a target) into an animal (Life), or she can
teleport by “rewriting” her own location (Space). A spell that
transforms the target into something that falls within the Purview
of another Arcanum, like transforming into a living pillar
of fire (Life and Forces), requires a mage to know the Practice
of Patterning for the destination Arcanum."

Why the fixation on killing werewolves? No one even plays their game. Do you just like masturbating to how you can Worf everyone else with a power set that is basically make believe child fighting?

>>55016284
Substance to plasma and temperature to hot, yeah. Or a fire that causes an erotic effect in onlookers, or makes erotic shapes. Or a fire frozen in time. Or fire substance to liquid. As for poop, personally I would just dehydrate some poop and burn it. Never use magic when unnecessary, say the Wise.

>>55016214
depends how long do your games usually run for?

mine run for 1-2 years, 5 exp a week for 2 years would be way to much exp.

>>55016319
Nobody likes woofs. Bork bork bork.

>>55016320
>Never use magic when unnecessary, say the Wise.
Only those pompous "enlightened" ones.

>>55016214
Same guy, how do you get 25 beats a session, do they choose to fail a shit ton?

You get what 1 beat per aspiration & obsession per scene right? Do they just pick really short term aspirations like "survive to the next scene?"

>>55016350
See >>55016248

>>55016300
Just how do you target the feces without it being in your sensory range?

You probably have a sympathetic connection to feces since you are talking it.

>>55016350
You get beats for resolving Conditions too, and you pick two short term aspirations which can be resolved in a single session. You also get beats if the ST decides that it's appropriate because of whatever happened.

god I hate magefags you ruin everything

thus place was fine until the silver fire bullshit

>>55016385
How does one squeeze person's heart without it being in your sensory range? You can still do it using Life.

>>55016388
Posters are a lazy breed. If you talk about something, they'll talk about it too because it's easier than arguing.

Post nothing, and they'll default to mages because mages are awesome and easiest to talk about.

Start a conversation instead of complaining about other people's conversations

>>55016387
I know about conditions but how many fucking conditions are you players resolving, 1 condition every single scene (since they dont stack)?

>>55016372
That's bullshit, you don't need to award beats for fake "I'll break your legs, then you break mine" exploits.

>>55016388
This is actually a rather passive discussion. Are you sure you're not just a pissy little wanker?

>>55016406
Yeah you do it's in the rules book

>>55016432
So is the X Card

>>55016397
Life would use ruling to tell the persons heart to stop/slow etc, You wont be squeezing it fuckboy.

You also wont be turning it to metal or some shit without seeing it. Sure you can turn the entire person into metal but not a specific part without sensory range (hearing his heart could work)

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I'M X CARDING THIS TOPIC

IT'S MAKING ME FEEL UNSAFE

>>55016436
I know but thankfully nobody at my table uses it not to mention my table is magical realm free

>>55016448
Do you have a source for this or is this just your house rule?

>>55016448
>(hearing his heart could work)

Does that mean if I can smell shit on a city street, I can use magic to clean the sewers?

>>55016448

...Are you pretending to be retarded?

>>55016403
>Posters are a lazy breed. If you talk about something, they'll talk about it too because it's easier than arguing.
You must be new to 4chan

>>55016460
~sensory range~

>>55016448
We know where a fucking heart is in the human body sight or no sight. Mind spells work even though we can't see the brain dumbass

>>55016460
Sensory range is pretty specific so yes.
>The Advanced Range factor is sensory, meaning that the
mage must be able to directly see, hear, or sense her subject.

>>55016350
>do they choose to fail a shit ton
Most definitely. I also try to aim for roughly 5 scenes per session (roughly 2-3 hours real world time).

>You get what 1 beat per aspiration & obsession per scene right? Do they just pick really short term aspirations like "survive to the next scene?"

Occasionally, once you can get multiple obsessions you can really start the arcane beat gravy train. "I want to become wise with my magic" is a perfectly valid obsession and rewards you for going out of your way instead of just mind controlling all your problems away.

>>55016480
The person you are casting a mind spell on is the target. Not his brain knobjockey.

You need to sense your "target" to cast on it.

>>55016483
You know where the heart is on a human.

>>55016480
You are using mage sight to sense their mind.

This would work for most of these other answers too.

Life magesight would sense hearts.

Say a Mage wanted to get dots in all Arcana

By the time he got 3 dots in all ten, how many dots could another specialist mage have in their's?

>>55016504
I might know 100% somebody is in a room, but until i sense them i cant cast on them...

>>55016498
No you are casting it on the person's mind. A mindspell does jackshit if the target doesn't have a brain.

>>55016527
Spirits dont have brains, fuckturd. They still have minds though.

>>55016514
Why would a mage seeking all Arcana raise them all at the same rate?

The answer to your question is situational. Does the mage have a Legacy that grants a third Primary Arcanum? Does the mage have teachers for every non-Primary Arcanum? Is the mage earning beats at the same rate as a specialist would?

>>55016517
Says who? We can sense people's presence through less specific means

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sense

Also we can sense the passage of time.

>>55016527
You don't need a brain to have a mind. Even spirits have fucking minds. You can flat out Make consciousness at Mind 5.

>>55016517
That is a false equivalence. You might know someone is in a room but you don't know where. You 100% know where a human heart is at on a human body.

>>55016539
have you read sensory range?

>>55016538
>The answer to your question is situational. Does the mage have a Legacy that grants a third Primary Arcanum?
Yes, it's an Obrimos who took a Death legacy

>Does the mage have teachers for every non-Primary Arcanum? #
Yes, their Cabal.

>Is the mage earning beats at the same rate as a specialist would?
assume yes

>>55016538
You don't need a teacher to raise an Arcana to 4 unless it's inferior

>>55016547
Yes, just now >>55016483
>>The Advanced Range factor is sensory, meaning that the
>mage must be able to directly see, hear, or sense her subject.

>or sense her subject.

Doesn't say it needs to be a specific traditional sense

>>55016541
So you can cast a spell on a gun inside a locked box then? Just because you know its in there because you put it in there?

Fuck off.

>>55016558
i would allow life sight to see hearts until i reread life sight and make sure it'd do that.

lol, you will try anything to dissuade Magefags, you poor things.

>targets person's chest
Problem solved, no hearts specifically

>>55016514
>By the time he got 3 dots in all ten, how many dots could another specialist mage have in their's?
Oh boy. Math.

Alright. So if I did this right getting all Arcana to 3 would take 97 Experiences. 13 to get your Inferior to 3, 12 to get your secondary and tertiary starting Arcana to 3, and then 12 x 6 for the remaining six Arcana, which is 72. 72 + 25 = 97. And you would just have Gnosis 1.

>>55016562
No you don't know what kind of gun it is or what the chest looks like inside dumbass. You know where a human heart is you can hear a heart beating and you can feel it moving. There is no comparison and you are starting to sound like an ass mad inferior splatfag.

>>55016623
I said i put the fucking gun inside the box so assume i know what the fuck type of gun it is.

You are saying if you 100% know where something is without being able to sense it you can cast on it. (i notice you added in hearing the heart now, dont fucking back pedal now bitch)

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there is no need for this hostility

This is making me more and more afraid to run the sundered world game I'm planning.

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>>55016650
Fuck off you colossal faggot.

>>55016660
Do you already have player lined up?

Easy question, no direct relevance to mages. nWod, for the record.

I was reading through the rulebooks, and I noticed that some stuff was weird with limitations?

Like Resources for instance. I can't see any reference to it going over five. But given five dots in the book I'm looking at caps at $50,000 a month and roughly 5 million in assets, it seems weird to cap it there.

Especially since some people (particularly old Vampires spring to mind) would, or at least could, be way fucking richer than that.

I mean, yeah, not every player and not every game is that shit gonna come up, but I feel like I should've been able to find some home-brew for it somewhere if not in an actual rule book.

It's more than just resources specifically that's like this, obviously, it's just the most immediate and easy example I can think of.

Show me a Mummy: The Curse Actual play worth reading please.

>>55016692
Seers 1e book had a merit that went over that limit, luxury or some shit.

>>55016692
Resources drops if you over-extend yourself, right?

So excess wealth just gives you a bigger safety net before you drop to 4 dots

>>55016667
Yeah, at least the hopefuls. No finished chars yet though. Which is for the best, I've been too busy to finish all my notes anyway.

>>55016715
If he is in 1e rules, I don't think resources worked like that yet.

>>55016562
You would just need to use Discern Composition (Matter 1), with Reach allocated to use the extra detailed effect of Knowing what object is hidden inside.

Likewise, if this nonsense ever came up at a table, Life 1, or even just Life Mage Sight, would be enough to "sense" internal organs. Knowing and all that.

>>55016736
Knowing != sensing. There is a difference.

>>55016692
If you're concerned, just keep on with the current 'pattern' of resources and extend the merit. Income doubles twice, then multiplies by five. Assets goes 5, 10, 50, 10. So level 6 resources would be an income of 100k a month and assets of 25 million. Level 7 could be assets of 250m and income of 200k. That sort of thing.

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>>55016692

>>55016743
Senses give you information. Once they do, you then know the information and interpret it.

How is there a difference?

>>55016717
I wouldn't worry about it too much, then. If you've gotten this far you're unlikely to get the kind of faggotry you might see in a pick up group.

>>55016715
Only for a month.

I think most characters with wealth are going to be clever enough to put all their excess money into the 'cash' gear every month, anyway.

>>55016743
Then Unveiling, my bad. It explicitly applies to sensing. Not much of a difference mechanically though. Still a one dot Practice.

>>55016762
>and a few illegal ones (recreational drugs and prostitutes, for example)
>This merit cannot be used to acquire weaponry or illegal items

wat

>>55016766
Some of my players have to suppress their power gamer tendencies.

But yeah, hopefully it will be okay.

>>55016764
As ive said you might know something but you cant cast on it until you sense it. How fucking hard is that to understand?

You might know you put a hammer in the toolbox, you can use whatever on the toolbox to know if it has a hammer inside but until you can sense your fucking hammer you cant cast spells on the hammer....

My god you are a thick cunt. Learn the difference between Knowing and sensing before either starting to play mage or continuing to play it badly.

>>55016785
You're basically a filthy rich socialite with the merit, but you can't ask Little Johnny the bum boy to run out and buy you an ar-15 with no markings or a nuclear weapon. It's a safety net to stop seer players just saying "hey, I want X, I've got the money, and it's probably covered by this sort of lifestyle".

>>55016709

I was under the impression that luxury was something slightly different than literally 'Resources 6'.

>>55016762

Yeah, a little different.

>>55016715
>>55016734

Yeah, pretty sure it's 1e.

>>55016756

I guess that makes the most sense, and by the time you got to 10 you'd be approaching 'richest in the world' status.

>>55016793
I see an egg and know there's an egg on the table

I put an eggbox on the table. I put it there and know there are eggs inside, so I know there are eggs on the table

What's the difference? I still know the egg is there, I still used an organ to acquire that information (eye and brain respectively).

>>55016814
But can you cast a spell on the eggs in the eggbox? (assuming you cant see the eggs in the eggbox)

If you say yes, then you are a retard.

>>55016814

The difference is you have to be actively perceiving it.

You have a spell that only work on things you can see. You take a ball, stick it under a cup. Since you cannot literally see the ball, you can't target it, because it's line of sight explicitly.

There are several ways around this, remove cup, scry inside cup, transform cup so it's transparent, etc.

Until you literally have eyes on, you can't tag it with something you can't see.

Knowing something is there isn't perceiving, because you aren't looking at it.

>>55016879
>because it's line of sight explicitly.

But Sensory Range doesn't just say line of sight. It's anything you can sense.

>A sense is a physiological capacity of organisms that provides data for perception.

>Perception (from the Latin perceptio) is the organization, identification, and interpretation of sensory information in order to represent and understand the presented information, or the environment.[1]

If I put the ball under the cup, then I understand the ball is there just the same as presently seeing the ball. Two routes to the same outcome - there is a ball there

>>55010699
>"I have not "cried" for at least 500 years"
>"No"
>"Last time I did it caused massive flooding everywhere"
>"No."
>"Shut the fuck up I am flashback-ing"
>"No."

>>55016879
Or just use Matter 1 to sense the ball, literally the given Detect Substance Unveiling spell.

>>55016912
How the fuck are you sensing the ball under the cup then? Once its under the cup

yes you know the ball is under the cup, but how are you sensing it? TELL ME!!

And no the ball doesnt make a sound, or smell of anything.

>>55016937
Senses are the method by which you acquire information. You see the ball, this tells you there is a ball there. You put a but under a cup, your memory tells you there is a ball there

End result is you know there is a ball and can therefore cast spells on it

>>55016945
You have no sensory input saying "THE BALL IS THERE", only knowledge.

>>55016945
omg you are a retard.

Memory != sensing.

>>55016951
>>55016952
Senses are organs that give you information

Your eyes are an organ and give you information by absorbing light that has bounced off objects

Your brain is an organ and giving you information in the form of memories

>>55016945
If i teleported the ball out from under the cup how would you know about it.

You are fucking trolling.

So Mages, if you could add an 11th sphere of magic, what would it be?

>>55016963
his brain would tell him obviously

>>55016958
Even I think that's reaching. You're either trolling or being a bit silly, mate. Your brain and your memories are not a 'sense'.

>>55016963
If I see a ball but it's actually a hologram, I can't cast on it either

Of course you can't affect the ball if there's no ball, but that has nothing to do with being able to see iot or not

>>55016968
I'd split all the symbolic horseshit out of some of the spheres - like Shadow from Death - and toss it in there.

Or reduce it to 6 spheres, ave imperator tremere.

>>55016975
You are not this stupid.

The ball is real, you put it under a cup, i teleport it away, how do you know about it?

Which of your senses tells you the ball has gone?

>>55016968
Splats

It lets you directly affect other splats abilities that don't neatly fall into the existing spectrum

1 dot lets you know if someone is a vampire or a demon, 5 dots lets you turn Werewolves human or make people into Changelings

>>55016968
Make it Abyssal magic.

>>55016912

>Sensory information

Are you SEEING the ball currently?

Are you TASTING the ball?

Are you HEARING the ball?

Are you TOUCHING the ball?

Are you SMELLING the ball?

If you are not currently doing one or more of those things, or I guess using magic to detect it via sixth sense like >>55016933 suggests, then you aren't perceiving it.

Remembering it fondly from another time whether 30 seconds or 30 years, isn't perceiving. Looking at a spy camera located under the cup arguably isn't perceiving, because you're seeing 'picture' and not 'ball'.

If you need to perceive the ball to do the thing, you need to be ACTIVELY perceiving the ball's existence in some way.

That's where the line is drawn. If it's a spell with a sensory requirement, you need to be sensing it in some way.

>>55016975
Sensory range has everything to do with seeing/sensing it or not.

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>>55016549
relevant XP costs
Arcanum to limit - 4*
Arcanum above limit - 5
Gnosis - 5*
*permits Arcane XP

Gnosis needed for Arcana
Gnosis 1: highest 3, others 2
Gnosis 2: highest 3, others 3
Gnosis 3: highest 4, others 3
Gnosis 4: highest 4, others 4
Gnosis 5: highest 5, others 4
Gnosis 6: highest 5, others 5
Your generalist will eventually need Gnosis 2. This costs either 5 starting Merit dots or 5 XP (Arcane permitted).

Limits of Arcana
Ruling: 5
Common: 4
Inferior: 2
Past the limit you need a teacher, and the XP cannot include Arcane XP.

Legacy effects on Arcana and XP
We'll assume Legacy through mentor. Need Gnosis 2, but you need Gnosis 2 anyway. Joining Legacy costs 1 XP but earns 1 Arcane beat. Purchasing the Legacy's Ruling Arcanum gives 1 Arcane XP per dot.

Arcana Limits for this character
Forces, Prime: 5
Death: 5 (formerly 2)
7 others: 4
You'll get to 3 under the limit. If you had no starting Arcana, it would take you 120 XP (Arcane permitted) to raise all to 3. 6 dots of starting Arcana saves you 24 XP. Death refunds you 3 Arcane XP. Joining the Legacy costs 1 XP, refunds 1 Arcane beat.

-120 aXP: Arcana
24 aXP: starting Arcana
-1 aXP: Legacy join
1 ab: Legacy join refund
3 aXP: Legacy Ruling Arcanum refund
-5 aXP: Gnosis 2 (if you didn't get it at chargen)

So 94 aXP cost, or 99 aXP if you don't get Gnosis 2 with chargen Merit dots. At "3 to 8 beats per session" (p. 84), this is between 59 and 165 sessions.

Where could a specialist be with that much XP? Even starting at Gnosis 1, Mastering an Arcanum would take:
20: Gnosis 2 through 5
8: Ruling Arcanum 4 and 5
28 XP total. 18 to 47 sessions.

Let's pump the other Ruling Arcanum up to Adept as well.
8: Ruling Arcanum 3 and 4
36 XP running total. 23 to 60 sessions.

In conclusion, flat dot costs in 2e reward specialists over generalists in the Arcana, many groups would appreciate faster experience progression in 2e, and your plan is dumb.

>>55017024
I agree, but eyes aren't the only sensory organ. Your brain is one too, and it's sensory information is memories, like the eye's sensory information is light

>>55017039
Your brain is not a sensory organ. Go ask your doctor.

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Sundered world now made Luna a fucking genderfluid trans person and Father Wolf a gay? This shit keeps getting better

So what I've learned from this thread is that the best way to fight a mage is to invest in a burka.

>>55017051
>The human brain is the central organ of the human nervous system, and with the spinal cord makes up the central nervous system. The brain consists of the cerebrum, the brainstem and the cerebellum. It controls most of the activities of the body, processing, integrating, and coordinating the information it receives from the sense organs, and making decisions as to the instructions sent to the rest of the body.

>processing, integrating, and coordinating the information it receives from the sense organs,

shit, I guess I was wrong.

oh well

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>>55017061
I'll just target spells on the burka, bitch.

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>>55016811
Level 10 would be an income of 10m/month and assets of 625 billion, so it's not exactly perfect. At that point you're a real problem for whatever nation you're in, because you're a huge chunk of their tax base since that's just 'disposable' income. God Machine eschews actual numbers - rank 5 is 'filthy rich'. Cade goes from a reasonably rich chap to a stupidly wealthy oil baron.

Three possibilities. A 1 dot 'advanced' merit for folks with Resources 5, letting you buy a functionally infinite amount of resources 5 purchases. Saudi oil money. Extend resources as above. An 'investment' merit, letting you 'invest' an amount of money equal to your resources dots into things per month. Or take the investment merit and give it numbers. Say you've got I(R(L)) per month to invest. I is your total listed income+assets, R and L are your resources level and investment merit level. So at max of resources 5 and investment 5, you'd have 125m a month to throw around in terms of pure 'investment' money.

>>55017059
Spirits don't have genders. They're fucking spirits.

Father Wolf being gay is more surprising. Not that Werewolves aren't already gay as shit.

>>55017059
Spirits don't really have genders in the human sense. Calling luna a dude isn't anymore odd than calling her, well, a her.

>>55017080
Even so, a burka makes me immune to life and mind magic

That's good to know

>>55017070
Yes, you are. Good to know you've internalised that.

>>55017059
Both are primeval entities, without concepts of gender.
Those are imposed on them by observers, who want them to fit into a story which is relatable to those who hear it.

So they say Father Wolf took Mother Luna for a wife and bred the Uratha.
Rather than two Rank 7 Spirits combined their Influences to generate a new Supernatural breed of half-human, half-wolf-moon-spirits.

>>55017088
Pangeans != spirits

All this because a Mage can stop a person's heart?

LEL

>>55017098
No need to be upset

>>55017105
I think we've established that a Mage cannot in fact stop a person's heart

>>55017102
Dumbass, I was referring to Luna, not Father fuckin' Wolf.

>>55017088
If great spirits don't have genders than why are they using both he and she instead of it? And why is Sol always referred to as male and Luna as his bipolar sister

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>>55017105
>>55017108

You know we can tell who you are because you don't use punctuation at the end of your shitposts, right? Trolling doesn't work so well when you're obviously the same person.

>>55017101
Well, one probably Rank 6-7 Pangean, and one Rank 7 which is possibly either a Spirit or Pangean.

>>55017124
For what it's worth, only 50% of the posts you linked were me

>>55017059
It's fine for her to be technically genderless, but one of the most prominent symbols of femininity really doesn't have much business being considered a dude.

>>55017116
I think we've established that a Mage cannot in fact stop a person's heart using the Practice of Ruling

FTFY

>>55017101
Father Wolf isn't a spirit dumbass

>>55017116
They can by targeting a person and using magic to force its heart to stop, but squeezing a heart requires you to be able to target the heart itself.

>>55017094
Not immune to uses that don't target you directly. Could control animals and people to attack you. Could turn your clothes into angry bees. A mage could even shapeshift or otherwise augment his own body to better physically attack you.

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>>55017124

>>55017138
If he'd lived long enough, he would have been.
So please forgive the minor mistake I then corrected.

>>55017135
Yes, they can. Ruling makes it do whatever it's able to do, even if it wouldn't naturally do it. A heart is fundamentally able to stop. Cardiac arrest is a thing.

>>55017164
But you'd need to be able to see their heart to command it to stop at sensory range

If you disagree with this, then you agree with being able to affect the ball under the cup

>>55017147
It's obvious is that one post is your phone with Wi-Fi turned on and the other post just using your phone's data from your phone companies

>>55017145
You can still target a person in a burka, you still can see its a person and fucking turn that person into a lawnchair. However you just wont know its your friend and not your enemy.

Mage-Haters once again taking things to the extremes.

This week: Sensory Range

>>55017179
You can't see the person, it could be a mannequin or three monkeys on each other's shoulders

If you can affect a person in a burqa at sensory range, then you can affect a ball under a cup

>>55017176
But a Mage can sense a heart. KEKEKEK

>>55017179
Friends don't wear burkas

>>55017164
Nope ruling can't change something's fundamental nature. A heart's symbolic purpose is to beat. To rule it not to beat would change it's entire purpose.

>>55017176
See? Not necessarily. Sense? Yeah, if you don't count seeing a person as being able to sense all of him. You could just use Life 1 Unveiling to sense internal organs if it was an issue.

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>>55015496
I wonder if Zubat will be playable.

>>55017212
What the fuck is this symbolic purpose shit? Source?

>>55017223
That would take up your limited spell slots

>>55017223
Or a mage could use heat-sensing pit organs, or bat sonar, or X-ray vision. They're not limited to your HUMAN senses.

>>55017212
Not quite

Compelling can make a thing do something it could do anyway - make a dog bark or make a heart beat faster

Ruling can make a thing do something it's capable of but might never otherwise do - make a book flip open to a certain page or make a heart stop

>>55017200
I bet you can sense if its a person or not though, either from breathing, sound, movement etc. Moving rules out a mannequin, not soundling like fucking monkeys probably rules out 3 monkies...

Its not all about seeing...

>>55017236
The same shit that allows death to control cold and shadows.

>>55017238
"I could kill you."
"Oh yeah? Yeah? Well it would take up a SPELL SLOT while you did it!"

>>55017248
Then why can;t I affect the ball under the cup if we're allowed to use these non-traditional senses

>>55017238
Yet it could still be done, either by having Gnosis 2+ or spending a Reach.

>>55017257
Or somebody else in your cabal casts the other spell.

>>55017245
Ruling can't fundamentally alter it's targets abilities. You can't force your heart to stop beating

>>55017255
You can affect the ball under the cup if you have xray vision that lets you sense it through the cup...

but with just your fucking eyeballs, ears or nose (assuming it doesnt make a noise or smell of anything) then no you cant.

Tell you what, wiggle the cup, hear the ball inside it and cast a spell on it.

>>55017251
How is that the same thing at all? "Symbolic purposes" don't hinder spellcasting at all. They aren't mentioned anywhere in the book.

You literally made this up.

>>55016989
Could you elaborate? What would be the unifying theme of the "symbolic bullshit"? Coul you give a more clear list of what you consider to be bullshit? Some examples are obvious, but others may not be.

If you were cutting it down to 6, which 6 would it be?

>>55017291
It is well within a heart's ability to stop beating. Hearts stop beating all the time

>>55017291
But it's literally able to stop. Hearts stop. Water can't flow uphill or twist into unnatural shapes on its own, but it's able to and so you can make it.

>>55017292
Then how can you affect a person fully concealed by cloth?

>>55017296
I am a Story Teller I can do what I want. You can't rule a heart to stop beating. Just like Death can control shadows and make people cold

>>55017303
Only when electrical impulses which control the muscles are disrupted.

And detrimentally affecting such a part of biology would be Fraying, Life 3.
And that would merely cause heart problems akin to a heart attack, rather than stopping them dead.

>>55017311
If you can hear them or smell them??

>>55017319
Your retarded houserules are irrelevant to everyone who doesn't play at your table.

>>55017319
How in the fuck do Death shadows mean hearts can't stop?

I have a feeling people are only arguing against Mage because of how easy it can be to kill a person using Supernal magic.

It's pretty funny. Stopping hearts, kinetic shields and now sensory range. You're complaining about the most minimal of things. It's fucking hilarious.

>>55017320
>Only when electrical impulses which control the muscles are disrupted

So I can't use Ruling to make a dog move, since that would require electical impulses to it's leg muscles?

>>55017341
I bet most mages kill themselves the first time they cast a long duration Ban and forget to allow air in or out.

>>55017341
Mages seek knowledge

If you wish to remain ignorant because knowledge would make you weaker, then maybe you should stick to playing Vampire

>>55017303
>>55017306
Hearts don't stop on their own. A heart is a representation of life and you can't make it stop on its own. Water is still flowing even if it is uphill but it still flows because water can flow. The official forums already had this question about heart's and Satchel who is the most knowledgeable non writer on the forums agreed with this assumption

>>55017320
You're not giving them camel kidneys or stopping them from getting nourishment from food you're hijacking an already present biological function.

Hell, fluff it as causing an imbalance in the Na/K pump.

>>55017341
2 FUCKING DOTS

YOU CAN'T DO ALL OF THAT AT 2 DOTS OR BLOCK ALL ATTACKS

Jesus just fucking give up

it's like saying dominate 2 can hop in a person's body, when 5 does that

>>55017362
>the most knowledgeable non writer on the forums

So because someone who's name you know posted their houserule, we should consider this an actual rule?

>>55017362
WHAT IS A HEART ATTACK ALEX

>>55017320
>Only when electrical impulses which control the muscles are disrupted.
Magic doesn't care.

>And detrimentally affecting such a part of biology would be Fraying, Life 3.
Wrong. You aren't directly hurting or attacking the heart at all. Just making it stop.

Why do people try this half-assed logic that Mage actively mocks?

>>55017362
>Satchel most knowledgeable

Fuck off.

>>55017205
A heart is part of something, the person themselves. Not so much a ball under a cup or a knife in a box. Since mage is all about symbolism, if you want to use the burqa argument - depends on your GM's particular interpretation of people and how they wear clothes. You want to cast on the ball, or the heart (directly, not in a way that interacts with the rest of the organism) or the knife, use a scrying spell.

>>55017362
Satchel is full of shit.

>>55017381
Not something that happens naturally on its own. You can't make yourself have a heart attack just like you can't rule water to be elastic

>>55017362
Satchel is literally the biggest fucking cunt on the forums. That thing can't even write without confusing itself and others.

>>55017386
The heart is an object, with two settings - on or off

Ruling lets you turn a heart off same way it lets you turn a light off

>>55017384
>>55017389
Stay ass mad that OPP writers haven't publicly on the forums praised your intelligence and mastery of the rules for years.

>>55017341
Why? Because we don't like how powerful mages are at two dots? There's nothing wrong with that.

Mages shouldn't be this powerful.

>>55017362
>Hearts don't stop on their own.
Water doesn't flow uphill on its own, or form unnatural shapes on its own, but that's the example literally given for Ruling, which trumps some literally who forum poster. Houserule whatever you want.

Fuck off.

>>55017299
Well, the Tremere want to unite all the subtle arcana into one grand unified sphere of "Fuck everyone, we're in charge, Imperium!"

So you'd have Time, Forces, Life, Matter, Time and the "Fuck everyone, we're in charge" sphere.

Symbolic horseshit, I probably went too far. Death just has a lot of absences in there, like cold, darkness and absence itself. They don't come off as something I'd expect to be part of a sphere, since they're not, you know, anything.

>>55017396
Tibetan monks famously have conscious control of their heartrates. The rest of us can use electrical shock or chemical injection to heart-stopping effect.