/CofD/ & /wodg/ Chronicles of Darkness and World of Darkness

>>54618023
>Lasombra
Nos + shadow powers
Done

Aren't LaSombra pretty much just Mekhet but not egyptian

>Are there any interesting concepts you port over from OWOD to Chronicles? (like Lasombra in Requiem, or vice versa)

Generation, but more in the sense of it acting as an unbroken psychic chain between vampires that can influence their actions as humanity drops, or the more time they spend in torpor. Purified are basically putative versions of oWoD mummies for us, able to 'step up' and swear service in exchange for UNLIMITED COSMIC POWER. They make great npcs, partially because the Purified are a fun splat with little reason to be played and because UCP for an owod mummy is pretty minimal in nWoD.

>>54618023
>Are there any interesting concepts you port over from OWOD to Chronicles? (like Lasombra in Requiem, or vice versa)
Just Caine as an origin myth.

Is Mr Roboto the perfect song for Demons?

>>54618432
My brother.

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Allright, I'm about to do my first Wod game next week end. Playing some Werewolf, what am I in for ?

Also, how can I play pic related in Werewolf ? I'm going for the glasswalkers.

>port over from oWoD to ChroD
The Tzimisce, of course.
Probably as an archaic Ventrue bloodline.

>>54618946
Forsaken or Apocalypse?

>>54618970
Apocalypse

>>54618963
Should have thought about it before posting, but just giving them Protean and a few devotions/merits could probably emulate vicissitude without needing to brew up a whole discipline

>>54618970
Glasswalkers sounds Apocalypse.

Do 2e mages need mana to even function? No one ever seems to talk about it as a constraint of any sort.

>>54618986
Ruling Arcana? No

Common Arcana? Yes

>>54619007
From the sounds of these threads, it doesn't seem to matter what your arcana is, if you can just justify anything away with your ruling arcana.

>>54618986
Not really.
However it can sure make your life easier.

>>54619007
What about when you combine arcana for spells? Like those forces 2 + space 3 things from last thread?

>>54619034
Yep, if you use a non-Ruling spell in a non-praxis, non-rote spell, then you've got to pay a 1 Mana tax.

However people generally don't learn that many spells outside of their Ruling Arcana. Especially when they can get a 3rd Ruling Arcanum with their Legacy.

At least, not until they get particuarly powerful, or decide to generalise.

>>54618986
>No one ever seems to talk about it as a constraint of any sort.
Because it's not really a big one. Also, these hypothetical situations never really get specific. It's usually just "Can a Mage do X?" and then the answer comes back "As a Y Path Mage, you can easily do X with this many dots." Rarely are questions like "How could a Moros stop someone from bleeding out?" to which him spending a mana point to use the Common Arcanum of Life could be an answer.

>>54618946
The short answer? You can't.

But if you wanted to roughly parallel it, perhaps a Homid Ragabash? Lupus are rarer than a 60 year old virgin in the GW, and although Metis -

You know what? Fuck it. Play a Ragabash Metis and claim that his affliction is his sheer incompetence and vanity. If you can last a full session without the rest of the pack tearing your throat out for compromising the entire stakeout because you saw a Hooters restaurant a block or so away, more power to you.

>>54619294
Well, yeah. It's the same as "white room" bullshit - it never works out in-game like the Avengers Training Facility, does it? Usually whoever gets the drop on the other party wins, combat is an unforgiving bitch in these games. So many other factors, too - how worn down the characters are, how prepared they are, is it home turf or unfamiliar surrounds (or hostile ones), different advantages (and weaknesses) for different times of day or year... and then sorting out the crossover rules alone is good for another year of arguing.

The only winning move in these arguments is not to play.

>>54619793
Which is exactly why Mage shouldn't be allowed in crossover scenarios. They have so many ways of surviving ambushes and setting up ludicrous preparations.

I'm always disappointed there wasn't a Man In Black legacy for the Guardian Order. I know they got a nod, but still. It'd be even more confusing if those abyssal men in black took umbrage.

>>54619828
The best advice I ever got on the subject was to pick a central Splat to base it all off - preferably one the players are part of - and use the powers of that Splat to describe what the other critters can do. It's the reason Vampire Revised (and Werewolf Revised) featured stats for Werewolves (and Vampires) using Disciplines (and Gifts); to explain how to manage it with a single core Rulebook and limited information on how to contest Arts against Arcanoi, or what-have-you.

>>54619872
That's fine for npcs but when you have a player who probably wants to play an actual mage then you shift him by doing that. I dont get why people just don't say no. I've said no to a player wanting to play a vamp in a mage game because night only shit is crap for the others and they were gonna be upstaged at everything, JUST SAY No you fuckers

>>54619929
And for what reason would a vampire be running around with a bunch of mages?

>>54619869
I wrote a fairly general purpose Mastigos Fate Legacy for the "nameless, faceless protagonist".
Originally designed for cowboy heroes, it works pretty darn well for Men in Black as well.

>>54620289
>And for what reason would a vampire be running around with a bunch of mages?

>Comedic sidekick?

>>54620588
Nameless mages, maybe. The kind without an order to sneer at the strange vampiric condition/powers. And the other way around, too - I can see nameless mages getting 'adopted' into vampire society and werewolf packs. One for comfort, the other for support in the form of a pack of frothing berserkers.

Would Mastigos be the John Wick Path?

>>54620614
>And the other way around, too - I can see nameless mages getting 'adopted' into vampire society and werewolf packs. One for comfort, the other for support in the form of a pack of frothing berserkers.

The Pack had a really good section on crossover between werewolves and mages, and Dave has commented on the pros and cons of their interaction.

Unfortunately we've seen little information or commentary on potential mage / vampire interaction. Crossover, without or without some balancing will still be difficult if for no other reason than mages would chafe at effectively being limited to adventuring during sundown.

>>54620632
I'd say Mastigos, with some crazy powerful skill and martial arts boosting spells.

Possibly with some nice Fate spells to enhance your ludirous pool, for that delicious hint of cheese.

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>>54619929
>Just say NO to crossover

DARE to be different, DARE to keep Cainites off True Magick

>I did True Magick once, and now I'm a pack a day crack addict. I inject marijuanas into my eyeballs every day, and sell my ass for liquid cocaine

>>54620649
>Unfortunately we've seen little information or commentary on potential mage / vampire interaction
Silver Ladder has a long-standing policy of their eradication.

>>54620659
Why, because the Embrace steals the potential to Awaken from Sleepers?

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Is there anything a mage can't do?

>>54620659
>potential mage / vampire interaction
>Silver Ladder has a long-standing policy of their eradication.

Interesting. Considering there's no upside to vampires for the sleepers under SL guidance and protection, such a position is not very surprising. I imagine that the Free Council would support a similar "no vampires" policy as secret masters that control and literally feed from humanity would definitely be considered to serve the Lie.

>>54620686
Got it in one.

Of course, that's far too resource intensive a move, and it would force them (Vampires) even deeper into Seer pockets than they already are.

So the cleansing is postponed...
Unless a worthless, shrivelled, bloodsucking, corpse with delusions of grandeur needs to get put in it's fucking place.

>>54620693
Ascension is so silly.

>>54620649
Never read it. is the book just called 'the pack'? Got a page reference?

Also there is Rowen from chicago, that Elder who managed to beat three mages to a pulp and get them addicted to her vitae. She basically uses them for magic she can't handle herself, which is lots-of-stuff. One is Taliesin, but I can't remember why. But not much actual information.

>>54620698
Shouldn't they hate werewolves too then, or do they know that werewolves don't turn each other, it can just look that way? And what what the kidnapping true fae making humans into changelings?

>>54620809
An Elder vampire with three mages in her service seems like a big threat that would have to be dealt with.

>>54620809

The Pack is thus far the one supplement for Forsaken.

Here it is:

https://www.sendspace.com/file/on0l8a

I also wouldn't use anything from WOD: Chicago as canon. It was a mess when it was released, and never updated at all for CoD 2e games.

>>54620855
>a big threat that would have to be dealt with

Swiftly, conclusively and with extreme prejudice.

Isn't there a legacy that allows a mage to kill without it being an act of hubris?

>>54620831
Mages certainly have a fairly extensive knowledge of how Werewolves function, and really so long as they don't hit their first change? They can still Awaken. Wolf-Blooded can become Mages.

Also without a doubt Thearchs would utterly HATE the Fae for what they do desecrating human souls. But they're practically Gods in their home turf, and that's not just resource intensive, but potentially suicidal.

>>54621011
Any Legacy attainment that kills does so without causing an Act of Hubris.
That's how Legacy Attainments work.

>>54620649
Crossover problems with a vampire are easily solved by giving the vamp a ghoul and having it be a second PC for the daytime game time
Gotta have good and flexible roleplayers though

Guys, I have a problem. A big problem.

I want to GM Beast to see with my own eyes if it's truly that bad, even though I have no serious experience as a GM. I already have a vague idea for the plot in mind. God help me.

>>54621040
What? That's not how it works son.

>>54621055
Can you post your plot idea ?
Genuinely interested in how Beast could be played

>>54621065
"Legacy Wisdom: Using a Legacy Attainment is never considered an Act of Hubris; the mage’s mystic self is completely attuned to their use."

So use your fire control attainment to burn someone alive, and it's not an Act of Hubris. Because you, a Tamer of Fire, have literally carved your soul into the shape of being a motherfucker who get fire to do what he fucking says, and you using that power, carved into your soul.

>>54621065
I don't know, it just might be. Technically, Legacy Attainments aren't even Supernal magic. They're powers the Mage gets from shaping their soul. They don't even cause Paradox, iirc. Wisdom is a measure of how you use magic and why, not just straight up morality.

>>54621081
The use of that power isn't an act of hubris, but you're still taking a life, which is an act of hubris, no matter what
Nice try

>>54621081
>"Legacy Wisdom: Using a Legacy Attainment is never considered an Act of Hubris; the mage’s mystic self is completely attuned to their use."
This quote is on page 198, for people who want to know.

>>54620855
I don't have access to my books, since they're in a box with the rest of the stuff I haven't unpacked yet, so I can't give you the exact details.

Rowen's the local head of the Circle. She's a gangrel elder, a terrifyingly efficient blood mage (to the point where anyone who even teaches her the first thing about the Coils or Theban Sorcery will be dealt with conclusively and spectacularly by the respective covenants) and mostly apolitical. She leaves that to younger members of the covenant. She's also described as being stupidly potent without her magic - to the point where she's one of the few kindred in the city that nobody will fuck with, and anything requiring her attention and the Circle's chief enforcer is probably the Unholy. The mages are supposed to be ones she carefully stalked for years, besting them one at a time.

>>54621097
Wisdom isn't morality. Acts of Hubris aren't just being mean.

>>54621080
The game will be more lighthearted than most. The PCs will be members of a Brood that act as a traveling Circus Of Wonder And Terror. Their leader will be Madame Scorpion, their adoptive mother who runs the Circus and uses her massive Lair as the HQ. Everyone keeps each other Fed and generally sustained by putting on scary shows (after the clients signs the contracts "do not hold the Circus responsible for Integrity loss", of course). The fun part is that this Circus doubles as an expy of the Scooby Doo Gang, with some crime fighting and personal sidequests as a bonus. They'd go around the USA, both causing and solving troubles both mundane and supernatural and building their collective Legend as the Greatest Show Unearthed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oVwqkBG0ulE

>>54621097
The killing is the use of that power.
It's a key, fundamental aspect of that power.
You have ordered flames to consume a living being, and burn him until he is dead.
That is a purpose of fire, and the purpose for which you have commanded it.
That is truly in harmony with your mystic self.

Plus, DaveB has stated that any use of a Legacy Attainment doesn't risk Wisdom loss.
Not just "any use which doesn't involve killing as a direct result of it's application".

That would be like saying an Attainment about draining the life from people until they're dead isn't immune from Wisdom breaks, because you COULD stop before they were dead, and the killing isn't an entirely necessary element of the attainment's function.

Which is entirely retarded.

Let those people who want to play combat Legacies enjoy one of the few benefits Legacy Attainments provide.

>>54621097
>no matter what
Shows how little you know.
You can also dodge the test if the spell that did it is Inured, or you've donned a Guardian Masque that permits murder for the cause.

>>54621148
>Plus, DaveB has stated that any use of a Legacy Attainment doesn't risk Wisdom loss.
Careful, quoting the developer on a game he developed triggers some people.

>>54621196

Developer privilege is so oppressive.

What could concievably drive each splat from a city, but leave the others there and unaffected? The only thing that they'd know is that 'those creepy fucks down the block are gone', and anyone who turns into one leaves or disappears soon after?

>>54621140
>>54621140
Sounds like a good setup with minimal angst and lots of fun too
I'd love to know how it goes if you wanna post how it went once you get around to it
Sadly I can't help much, haven't read Beast in its entirety
What time period are you going to use ? Any dark eras material ?

>>54621136
Exactly, killing with magic accidentally has bee said to be worse than premeditated magic used to kill, the old morality traits are gone and replaced with "HOW CLOSE AM I TO MY Splats theme" fucking phones

>>54621289
If you're assuming crossover and knowledge that the other supernaturals exist, predicate it on the Spirit of the City (that's a common thing) making life miserable for <X> supernatural type in the city. The city just does its best to drive out <X>, and if they won't leave, it uses its resources to kill them. The Spirit has Influence over the entire city, ideally, and influences subtly, with things like rezoning paperwork and all the things that a city can do.

>>54620693
In his case, appear in a single location only.

Boom. Headshot. Didn't see that one coming, did ya? Clash me ousside, how bou dah.

>>54621315
I might do an Actual Play on the OP forums if this gets off the ground.

As for Dark Eras, maybe I'll use something around the 1870-1950s, as that was the heyday of the American Circus. Any Dark Eras for that period?

>>54621136
>>54621140
>>54621148
You can dress it up however you want, but executing someone through your powers, especially for a mage, warrants a degeneration roll in my games, same as a killing blow
Using it in combat, against someone who's a threat, sure, no problem with your wisdom
Frying some poor fuck out of nowhere, regardless of your legacy, is a breaking point, unless you've already done it enough that you don't care anymore (meaning you fucked up your previous degeneration rolls)
Then again, it's up to the GM and a good one would do it like this

>>54621352
There was Dustbowl setting for Promethean, I believe
Either in the first Dark Eras book or in the companion

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>>54621055
oh shit buddy, get ready for Revenge Fantasy Where My Friends Have Powers: The Series

>>54621356
>Then again, it's up to the GM and a good one would do it like this
Do it like what? Treat it like a morality system when it isn't?

>>54621372
He's playing Beast, not Vampire.

>>54621256
>>54621196

I'm not triggered, I just think he's a stupid tosser

>>54621406
Maybe he is. But he's not wrong.

>>54621372
>Revenge Fantasy

Not on my watch, they won't.

>>54621289
It's better if they never find out. It's much scarier never knowing. Just have all that splat die mysteriously in simultaneous fires, or all disappear the same day and be replaced in their hidden Havens by a token (playing card, unique coin, unique feather, etc.). Never take it any further than that, and the players will tie themselves in knots for the next fuck knows how many plots expecting to find out more. Plus it adds to the general weirdness levels.

>>54621383
Treat abusive use of magic with effects similar to a killing blow as a breaking point, yes
You could have re-read my post, instead of acting like you don't understand

>>54621372
The Anon already said he wants to avoid that shit, see >>54621140

>>54621436
Legacy Attainments aren't magic. They're powers that come from the Mage's soul. They don't cause Paradox and they can't be dispelled with Prime. The book also says using one is NEVER considered an Act of Hubris. Say it with me buddy, NEVER.

>>54621397
Oh, it's Beast?

Apologies, "Revenge Fantasy Where My SUPERFRIENDS Have Powers: The Series"

STARRING!!! That one Demon player!
The two guys who want to play the rarest Vampire bloodline in canon! The girl who wants to play Mage but ends up choosing Promethean because the other dudes make crude comments about unicycle Obrimos!

Because nothing says "plausible character motivation" like a random human-looking guy showing up at the front door of a fucking supernatural conspiracy claiming to know everything and offer +1 to die rolls, amirite?

Magefags are, to a man; paranoid, jumpy and unbelievably violent. Werefags are obsessed with rape. Vampfags are spoiling for a rumble. I personally guarantee you that if a Beast showed up at the doorstep of any one of these threadgoers' characters and claimed to know everything, they'd be lunch... delivered to the door.

>>54621492
Okay, sweetie, whatever you say
One good boy point for you, for being always right
Five more and you will be able to get your tendies

>>54621425
No, he's not wrong about things he's written - I trust he would be the authority on that. But that doesn't mean that his ideas suit the game, or that they help the game achieve it's full potential. Lest we forget the damage wrought in the past by developers like Achilli, Brucatto and whoever was responsible for fucking Gypsies.

>>54621505
Well someone has shitty friends

>>54621492
So it's morally exempt because the soul did it?

I'm not sure I follow your logic. Are you saying it's not ever murder if a person is killed by a spirit or ghost? They don't have bodies.

>I'm not sure I follow your logic
Because the only logic he understands is that of powergaming

>>54621531
Yes. You bastards. You entire sick threadful of bastards. You're the only people I can communicate to from this unguarded cubicle outside the PICU. The staff here are trying to poison me, the whispering is quite clear on that. They think I don't know about the cameras in the food; I know, oh, I know.

Luckily I've hallucinated all of you horrible bastards to talk to, or I'd go completely mad!

>>54621584
Watch your left. The tent has been pitched and the dodo is on the roundabout.
16.400.56.135578.78.0943
See you soon.

>>54621555
Wisdom isn't straight morality. It's how you use your magic, and why. It's not about doing bad things so much as it is being stupid. Hence "Wisdom".

"Wisdom: The quality of a mage’s understanding of how to
minimize the damage his magic causes by exercising restraint and
practicing the Ars Mysteriorum ethically. The moral opposite
of hubris. Also called “Sophia.”"
p.75

"Wisdom is a mage’s ability to judge the value of when, where,
why, and how to use magic. Mages commonly call this virtue
sophia, but Awakened society debates constantly on what constitutes
“right” usage of their magic."
p.86

It's also explicitly stated that Legacy Attainments are never Acts of Hubris. Never. It's not hard to understand. You can play Wisdom as Morality if you want, but it would be a houserule, and not consistent with the themes of the game on a lot of levels. Losing Wisdom because of a Legacy Attainment would also be a houserule, a direct contradiction of what's written.

>>54621716
I think the key word here is "restraint"

Does anyone have the "World of Darkness General" text template handy ?

>>54621756
Anon said to him, taking a life is an Act of Hubris no matter what. So even if burning up the guy was appropriate and morally just, Act of Hubris, roll for degeneration.

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Actually, never mind, I'll do without

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>>54621911

>>54621716
>The quality of a mage’s understanding of how to
>minimize the damage his magic causes by exercising restraint and
>practicing the Ars Mysteriorum ethically.

>minimize damage
>ethically

Reminder: the topic of discussion is burning a man alive, simply because the Mage can do so.

I like the part that says "the MORAL opposite of hubris", despite you insisting that morality doesn't line up with the themes and it's okay because it's not Hubris with a capital H. You're like a weaponized form of irony.

>>54622373
Impressive reading comprehension. The discussion is killing, period, which anon believes is an Act of Hubris, period. This was countered with burning a man alive willy nilly because Legacy Attainments are explicitly never Acts of Hubris. Legacy Attainments aren't even magic, so the "practicing the Ars Mysteriorium ethically" doesn't apply to them. Shooting a Sleeper with a gun would be closer, because Legacy Attainments are explicitly stated to be akin to natural phenomena. I also said that Wisdom isn't STRICTLY morality, and that its focus is more on being wise than being nice. Which is true.

Something something you're a weaponized form of stupid, whatever.

The real issue is whether mages can use a Shielding spell to protect or immunize them from rolling against Wisdom, and if so, what Arcanum would be required.

I'm think "Hubris Shield" would require Prime and/or Death 2.

>>54622373
I started this argument and honestly, drop it
I appreciate your support, but they're too cunty and self-righteous to realize their own shortcomings
We know we're right and we're free to play our games far away from these tards

>>54622524
>I like arson
k

>Dark Eras 2 KS won't likely make the next era goal
>Which looks like it is made for mummy/vampire crossover

Come the fuck on, every time mummy almost gets something cool it gets cut off at the knees.

>>54622599
You're free to houserule whatever you like, of course.

>>54622614
The winning one at present, rather.

>>54622614
>Necropolis in Egypt
>not Geist and Mummy

>>54622635
Well the Steamboats are tied with it now anyway so it may lose even if we get a 4k bump in the last few days of this.

>>54622604
>he doesn't like arson
It's like you don't even know how to prove your love to your girlfriends.

>>54622622
I already do
I'm tired of this general being more about shitflinging and rule details than about fresh ideas

>>54622642
Steamboats will be pure unadulterated shit, unless it's for Demon

>>54622659
Treating Wisdom as straight black and white morality sounds like it would be pretty stupid, to me. And also not a fresh idea at all. People often misinterpret Wisdom as just being morality, in my experience.

>>54622689
I honestly wouldn't mind it but definitely want it to be a weird mashup. I've been privately hoping for like Demon/Werewolf for a while.

I actually thought those would be a good pair for a Industrial Revolution London which we will never get

>>54622656
>I don't have a girlfriend
say hi to your boyfriend

Did the calvacarius ever get remade in 2e? I know some anon was doing a bunch of new legacies.

>>54622699
Oh I wasn't claiming my little rant was anything fresh
But I think you misunderstand me again so I'll try with concrete examples :
>vampire attacks you, you set him on fire
Not hubristic
>some guy slaps your girlfriend's ass at the club, you set him on fire
Definitely hubristic

Regardless of the use of a spell or of an attainment, the latter is an act of hubris that, imo, requires a degeneration roll

Now if you use a spell in front of sleepers to set the guy on fire, you'd have another Wisdom roll to make (and paradox to take), but that's independent from the cold blooded murder of someone vastly inferior to yourself in terms of power

>light your cigarette with magical fire
If you use a spell, that's kinda hubristic (other mundane ways to do so and trivial use of magic)
If you use an attainment, you're free of hubris, because your char doesn't even think about it, it's ingrained in them

That seems like common sense to me and that doesn't touch on using an attainment or not, but on the degree of malicious intent and lack of wisdom in using your powers, regardless of their form or origin
A mage should know better than to set random douchebags on fire, even if through the use of a power that doesn't constitute a hubristic act in itself

Is this more satisfying ?

>>54622899
>Is this more satisfying ?
Yes, because except for the Attainment being able to be an Act of Hubris, that's exactly how it works in the book.

>>54622899
Sounds like someone self serving justifying Backpedaling. This is why 4chan sucks. it has no balls anymore

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>>54622741
ORA ORA ORA

>>54622899
>>vampire attacks you, you set him on fire
>Not hubristic
What if it was an actual living thing? You said taking a life is an Act of Hubris, no matter what.

Regeneration is a cruel joke of a spell for Life. Nothing permanent, just "cast as indefinite, hope nobody finds out there's a spell there".

>>54623035
>Not stealing your boss' hand and crafting it onto your stump
Do you even metal gear?

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>>54623035
>>54623085
Can I combine life and forces to turn myself into a flying firebreathing dragon?

>>54623153
Sure, why not. Alternatively, just use Life and make the dragon breath out a flammable gas.

>>54623153
costs extra reach but yeah sure fuck it

>>54623007
Maybe I was unclear or I typed too fast, you will of course accuse me of back pedalling, but you know the saying : "only imbeciles never change their mind"
What I did mean or rather what I mean now is that taking a life willy-nilly just for the hell of it is hubristic
Defending yourself wouldn't trigger a wisdom check, unless the response is disproportionate (for ex. setting a guy on fire for a minor insult)
In most cases, a mage has many more solutions than to outright murder a mortal to solve a conflict. Making a show of power for the sake of it is definitely hubristic
>>54622972
But using the attainment isn't an act of hubris in itself
It's the disproportionate response that is

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Does anyone have the version of this with the Exarchs? Feel also free to share your WoD related filenames.

>>54623226
Hey man, the only limit you have on Reach is how much paradox you're willing to not bother to contain!

>>54622982
>take criticism into account to formulate my point better and have a sensible discussion
>"lol u haev no balss 4chin wuz beter bacc than"
I wish summer would end already

>>54623441
The Old Man is always happy to help with that. Just step into the fucking hut.

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>>54623481
No one cares about your "reasons" schoolfag

>>54623418
You weren't unclear. It was pretty clear. You said "you're still taking a life, which is an act of hubris, no matter what". You have definitely shifted your stance from disagreeing with how Wisdom works to pretty much just going along with it.

Also, using an Attainment is explicitly never an Act of Hubris. Never. I don't even fucking get how you can argue that they mean that just the act of using your Attainment isn't an Act of Hubris, because how could it ever be an inherent Act of Hubris? Wisdom is dictated by the when, where, why, and how. Not the what.

>>54623570
Just write a thesis paper on a fantasy metaphysics already. no one comes here to learn

>>54623570
Did you even read what I wrote ?
Are you some kind of mindless drone ?
Fuck that
I'm done trying to reason with downies
Have fun in your shit thread

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>>54623637
>phone posters are shit
u mad?

This thread needs a lot more gay werewolves.

>>54623637
The irony here is that you're the stupid one. The thread will be substantially less shitty with you gone.

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>>54623672
A pack of werewolves would shit on a vamp coterie or a non combat focused mage cabal.

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>>54623841
What is they're FROM SPACE???

>>54623841
>non combat focused mage cabal.

A cabal of mixed Path mages is always more than combat capable.

Man death is a shit arcana. How am I gonna get into touch range of a werewolf in order to rot it's flesh with out getting eviscerated?

>>54623911
by reading the rules?

>>54623911
Use Reach to extend the range. Alternatively, transform into a shadow, sink to the floor, and just avoid them entirely. Or jump into Twilight.

>>54623911

Sensory range requires only a single Reach and there's no Defense or Dodge.

>>54623945
>avoid them entirely

Why would a superior mage run away from a Yorkie with delusions of grandeur?

>>54623930
>>54623945
>>54623958
It's touch range not sensory range dumbasses

>>54623976

If we're discussing Mage 2e, range is determined by Reach. It is not set by the spell.

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>>54623976
That was quick the shit phone poster is back. Read the rules illiterate fag.>>54623945

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>>54623976

>>54623971
Not worth their time. Tell their Elder to scold them for interfering with your business later.

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>>54623423

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>>54624353
Thank you, anon.

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>>54624353
>not only praising the Gate, the one True Exarch

>>54622524
>Shooting a Sleeper with a gun would be closer, because Legacy Attainments are explicitly stated to be akin to natural phenomena.
Not a week ago there was some discussion in which someone mentioned that sending Sleeper into portal to Lower Depths would be Act of Hubris. That confused me and I brought this exact example with shooting someone with a gun and I was told it is Act of Hubris too. But I for a one consider the RAW insterpretation of Hubris better.

Is anybody doing a oWoD Roll20 campaign?

>>54625582
No oWod is fucking shit

>>54625885
No you're fucking shit

>>54625894
No I am fucking based, oWod is what is fucking shit

>>54625582

I wish

>>54625885

I disagree

>>54625582
>>54626072
There are various oWoD discords, but good luck finding a game that will start in relative short notice.

How accurate is the mage the awakening arcana quick sheet in the Mega?

>>54626168

Yeah I used to drudge up a few of the wandering /v/ites that do those late night bloodlines threads. Always good for trolling a few into the light interested in a game.

>>54619756
>Metis deformity: Fucking retarded

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>>54618946

Make him a Garou born as one of the few Glasswalker's remaining Lupus, maybe even the last of his kind in the local area, with a weird fascination of the world of humanity and whatnot, and give him a massive fetish for human women.

I mean, Lupus Glasswalkers are rare, but they're pretty fucking rare in every tribe except the Red Talons.

His obsession with sex could be deflected with either "I'm just trying to learn about this strange new world, honest!", or be defended with claims of "Well, Gaia needs more Garou, right?! That means it's my duty to spread my bloodline, so this is vital information for me to know! I mean, I don't really care for humans as much as wolves, but hey, if that's what it takes, then I'll hesitantly do my part! *lecherous chuckle that completely undermines his statement*".

That last bit is honestly not a bad thing either, since Garou and Kinfolk *are* encouraged to keep mating and breeding to provide greater chances of Garou offspring, and obviously no tribe turns down additional Kinfolk, so long as they're not useless.

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>>54621529
Brucato is only a problem for Ascension now. He's responsible for the golden age of that game and gave us books like The Book of Chantries, The Book of Shadows (which actually made Mage 1e playable), The Book of Mirrors which I will unreservedly hand to any new GM/ST, Tales of Magic, The Orphan's Survival Guide and the Guide to the Technocracy. Phil made oMage what it is and for that, he deserves credit.

Does this excuse him from the atrocity that is M20? No. I went from Joy to horror as I read that book and Phil should never be allowed to forget that.

But, MAN! He is the reason M20 was delivered on time in the first place.

>>54626011
You know that you wouldn't even be having this conversation if it wasn't for the oWoD right?

>>54626926
Is 6+ months late 'on time' now? I guess for OPP it is. Probably would have been on time if goat fucker didn't spend 3000 page rambling about bullshit to the point that the core book is divided up among 300 other books.

>>54627055
Better than Wr20 and C20

>>54627101
AT LEAST THOSE BOOKS WILL PROBABLY HAVE ALL THE RULES TO PLAY IN THE FUCKING CORE

>>54627055
And did your faggoty autistic ass miss th e part where I called it a travesty?

>>54627135
That goat fucker just makes me so mad my reading comprehension drops.

>>54627055
>>54627132
I am all in favor of shitting on Phil. Like, seriously. Shit on him harder. But before you REEEEEE at me, do it right.

>>54627101
>Better than Wr20 and C20

Bitch, C20 is a heck of a lot better than M20. None of that stupid "herp a derp, pay attention to food during gametime guiiiiise" and other stupid shit.

I mean, I'd rather have a book that was good AND delivered on time, but if I had to choose, I'd definitely choose to wait some extra months (or even extra years) to get an actual book WORTH getting.

In VtR, who would be the most powerful : Dracula or Belial ?

>>54621108

I wonder just how 'powerful' these mages were, to lose to a fucking Cronee.
This Rowen probably got off lucky from the sound of things.

>>54628411
Lucky or not, she's still got 3 supernal lapdogs

>>54628411
>>54628453
It is strange, this. Mages don't just become blood bound to Vampires. It's such an easy thing for them to remedy.

I also cannot imagine just how lucky she was to "best" these mages in combat. Three at that.

Alas, Chicago was a very early book. It didn't acknowledge much in the long run. Still an interesting read.

>>54628631
Not all arcana are designed to battle Vampires dumbass mage fag

>>54628631
The thing about an addiction, even if you can fix it with magic, means you have to /want/ to fix it with magic. Probably even worse with things like Vitae.

>>54628631
Chicago actually implies that these Mages may not have actually been blood bonded to her. They might be manipulating her to their own ends. Page 378.

SpooOOooOOooky

>>54628661
You can spend Mana to restore yourself

>>54623841
>non combat focused mage cabal.

No such thing

>>54628661
>>54628684
see:>>54628715

They're just leading her on because she's hugely influential with vampires.

>>54628876
>Not spending months addicted to vitae to farm beats
Why even live.

>>54622986
I will never not be grateful for this Rehashing

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>>54628912

>>54628876
>>54628715
>>54628631

Theorycrafting here for a moment. Let us assume she actually managed to defeat them and how that could have happened.

Rowen is BP 6 with Crúac 5. If we assume she would know a Protection Rite that allows her to Clash of Wills hostile magic cast on her she could easily have 15 dice to clash with. Furthermore, all her Resistance Attributes are 5+.

Depending on the Gnosis and Arcanum ratings of the mages involved they could easily be forced to having to buff themselves and deal with her directly, unless one has decent Forces. That could easily produce damage she could not protect from with a hypothetical "Shielding of Crúac", but even against Forces she would have Resilience 4. Protean 5 also makes for decent surprise attack potential, as long as none of them had higher ratings in Time.

>>54629171
Of course, with her crazy Crúac she could have just subdued them with a Rite sympathetically before they even knew what hit them. With Elder Crúac I would not be surprised if you could inflict the Vinculum directly through a Rite.

>>54629171
Which is why I'm assuming that these Mages she blood bound (assuming they didn't intentionally dupe her as the book suggested) are Disciples, *maybe* Adepts.
The book did mention that she had to take her sweet time regarding this.

I can't imagine her taking on Masters going by 2e mechanics.
They have no many ways of cheesing CoW and ES rolls are horrific in application.

>>54629171
You can only Clash spells with something that directly resists them. It's just not possible to put up a shield to resist all spells if you're not a Master.

>>54629265
>no

so*

>>54629265
Well, even a Master would have to get past her Withstand. Almost impossible with any Unmaking that is Withstood by Stamina (of which she has effectively 10).

>>54629268
You are going to have run that by me again. There are plenty of Shielding spells that clash any fitting supernatural power as soon as they are used on you.

Aside from that, Prime 2 also has Wards and Signs which just straight up raises your Withstand. Which would be an alternative option, with 5+ base Withstand and +5 or more from a Rite that would come out the same as having an insane CoW pool.

>>54629337
You realize that Masters have chances exceeding that of 90% when fishing for Exceptional Successes, right?

Be reasonable. We're not going to bring Masters into this, because Rowen -will- be annihilated.

That being said, I doubt the thralled mages are Masters. Not just from a mechanical feasibility perspective but also narrative. SOMEONE in Consilium (or among the other Pylons if they are Seer) would pick up on that.

And Nameless Masters usually do not congregate like that.

>>54629337
>Withstand
>Masters

Oh please, anon. You're making me laugh. This is what so many people complain about when Masters are brought up.
They can blow through Withstand like fucking cotton candy.

>>54629171
>"Shielding Against Crúac"

Meh, Prime 2.

If I recall correctly, the purportedly blood bound mages were also members in good standing of the Chicago Consilium. Unless the mages of the consilium were retarded, err.... "neuro-atypical," (Supernally-challenged?) as is often the case with OPP for "plot-reasons," three mages supernaturally bound to an elder vampire would trigger veritable five alarm warnings on most mages peripheral and active Mage Sight, and the problem would then be quickly and with extreme prejudice.

The Chicago book was a setting and mechanical mess in CofD 1e, and should be totally ignored in 2e.

>>54629337
Exceptional Successes can't be Withstood. Withstand is a joke to Masters.

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Magefags once again wont let any other splat have any fun. Bunch of fucking powergamers and fedoratippers

>>54629467
Oh, fuck off. That movie was underrated. And I hate Disney with a passion.

>>54629362
>>54629380
Fair enough on the Withstand ignore. That still leaves the CoW and then it is up to the ST whether they would allow such a widely applicable Crúac Rite (but looking at Coda against Sorcery in Secrets of the Covenants I find it hard to find a reason why not).

>>54629393
>Meh, Prime 2.

As long as there is a clash, she can win it. Especially if we go with such a low baseline as Prime 2.

Besides, if we assume there was no direct conflict and she essentially sympathy-bombed them we would have to assume they always have an appropriate Death or Prime Shielding up all the time, all of them or there would not have even been a contest in the first place. In that aspect Crúac even has the advantage by not adhering to as strict rules of sympathy as Supernal Magic, which requires knowledge in Space/Time.

I do agree though that if they were major members in the Pentacle Consilium (as opposed to Nameless or a disconnected Seer Pylon) that would seriously stretch suspension of disbelief.

>>54628912
>>54628938
Thanks guys, I appreciate that.

Got any more Legacy requests?
I'm looking at the weird Illuminated Path one, but if there are any others, I can give them a shot.

>>54629366
How many masters would a large city like Chicago even have?

>>54629574
I'd like to see a pass at Cult of the Doomsday Clock
Though some of the legacies like this feel like they make less sense in 2e, the ones that wreck you for completing them are some of my favorites. The only other one I recall like that is the Followers of the True Soul.

>>54629585
The Chicago book names 4, I think that about equals the Boston book (Boston might have 1 or 2 more).

But both of these are hella old by now, so take that with a lot of salt. Besides, there might be more they just did not stat up and mention in the books.

>>54629694
So even first degree masters are rare as fuck l see

>>54629171
>>54629501
The thing about Clash of Wills is that it's only good for so many things.

She's not going to be duly defended against even a third of most magics.

>>54629730
Yep, past this point it would just be pointless guessing, without any more information about the mages involved.

>>54629730
This.

Mages using indirect magic devoid of being protected against is the way to go.
Ban and Gravitic Supremacy comes to mind.

You just can't Clash that, more often than not.

>>54629834

Elder Crone or not, a vampire stands little chance against even s Moros or Obrimos Adept, no less a master of any Path and/or diverse group of mages. Some Paths and Legacies almost seem design built to destroy the undead,

When in groups, mages are much more than the sum of their individual parts, even more so than splats groups like werewolf packs where cohesive collective action is part of the setting and mechanics. When even small group of mages can control all or most of *reality*, most threats are easily neutralized.

>>54629834
>Mages using indirect magic devoid of being protected against is the way to go.
>Ban and Gravitic Supremacy comes to mind.

So, could Fate 2 Shielding provide OPP's notorious "Plot Armor" effect?

>>54630073
>So, could Fate 2 Shielding provide OPP's notorious "Plot Armor" effect?

No, I believe that would require archmastery and the Practice of Dynamics at Fate 6.

So it seems ArcaneArts is also leaving OPP because of David Hill. I am starting to feel hopeful for Changeling 2E, help me /WoDG

>>54630498
Life is pointless and existence meaningless.
You are welcome.

>>54630555

Thank you anon.

>>54630498
With Rose in charge I'm sure all the NPC blocks will totally be accurate.

>>54630498

Do you have a link to the announcement?

I imagine a lot of Changeling 2e folks have been left out in the cold over Rose's development/secret second version gone public (maybe). Can't really blame them for leaving.

>>54630643
I'm not a fan of her version at all. Rose should stick to vampire where being uninteresting is the entire game.

>>54630666

I haven't been into Hill or Bailey's versions, but to be fair I'm honestly not sure what I would want out of a Changeling 2e.

>>54630750
Probably a better edited version of 1e converted to the 2e system and including stuff from the later supplements. I think its going to be one of the few 2e games that's worse than 1e.

>>54630866

I guess, though I feel the criticism then would be "why take forever to do a book like that when you could do a quick update appendix" or something.

I vaguely recall a Mage the Awakening book offering an alternate setting idea where the Exarchs have 20 "Thrones" that function as alternate Watchtowers, each doing a nonstandard combination of Gross and Subtle Arcanum. Does anyone know where that is, or did I imagine it?

>>54630643
>Do you have a link to the announcement?

http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/main-category/main-forum/the-new-world-of-darkness/changeling-the-lost/1117927-arcane-s-paris-what-s-going-on

>>54630750
>but to be fair I'm honestly not sure what I would want out of a Changeling 2e.

What i would want for Changeling 2E would be:
1) Better contracts. The scaling design was hit and mix with various contracts.

2) Removing or improving Clarity.

3) Removing dreams as it was a superfluous aspect of changeling that only was there to fight 1 type of bad guy that only affected dreams.

4) Actual rules for creating Tokens.

5) Better explained freehold structure.

6) More contracts. And more special powers to certain courts

Not necessary but good to have:

6) Better pledge rules.

>>54631112

Thank you!

All the talk of ethics and the complexity of being paid in their situation makes me interested in seeing that blog post.

Does anyone have the image from mages with the buff jawa?

>>54631319
http://projects.inklesspen.com/fatal-and-friends/images/40e4089bd2fbed0ebd10b9eb918d794ee66144b4ac8bf09dc2b5a55360c6c9f9.png

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>>54631319
Kill the Batman?

How can I punish a vampire for being too trusting in a way he'll feel, but which won't kill him, and not in a social manner?

background:
All the Players have kind of mentor figures. They uncovered some pieces of an conspiracy, and now are hunted, and the only "master" actually caring for his fledgling ordered him to stay out of sight of camerilla until the issue is resolved.
Now the mentor of the nosferatu writes him emails for the last 2 missions, telling him they have to meet up (incidentaly, since the group of fledglings went undercover). Now he decides to go visit him, while even the other players told him thats a horrible idea.
How do I make the punishment interesting and contributing to the story?

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>>54631458
Vampire strippers

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>>54631458
>>54631544

Mages are *fabulous*!

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But did you forget about this

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Version 1.21, now with the Cult of the Doomsday Clock

Didn't put the 'destroy history' spell into Attainment form, as I thought that would be something more interesting as either a spell for it's most powerful members, or as Imbued items which their weaker members would carry about.

Clockbombs.
Fuck history.

Also I now realise I didn't state at which Attainment level you're considered a differen't "rank" within the Legacy.
Meh.

>>54631629

How could I ever forget the best piece of Mage art ever made?

So with what appears to be weekly blog posts, and a kickstarter in the pipeline will Changeling the lost 2e be out by the end of the year?

>>54632155
Was the kickstarter confirmed?

>>54632155
We can live in hope.
Changeling moving towards release, and DaveB back on Signs of Sorcery.
Things are looking up.

>>54629467
That picture is pretty stupid as anything other than a silly joke. Anybody who tries to use it as a genuine slight doesn't actually know anything about Atlantis.

>>54632245

Its not the internet fault that Atlantis is only thought off by pop culture in relation with Aquaman, that disney movie, new agey crap and fish people.

>>54632245
Don't tell me you didn't at least chuckle at it

>>54626926
Mage 1e was playabe from the get go. You sound like some sort of wiccan faggot.

>>54632559
Its true, most of the 'good' Brucatto gets attributed wasn't even him.

>>54624353
The art in the original Awakening was what actually shifted me from being very pro diversity to hating minorities.

>>54632334
Well yeah, it's funny, but more often than not I see people using it to bash the game.

>>54632298
It takes one google search to learn that it's an allegory for hubris.

>>54632757
>It takes one google search to learn that it's an allegory for hubris.

True but truth rarely matters but people perception of it, just what pops in their mind when they think of it, basic marketing. Atlantis as myth was and continues to be a bad choice. They could have sold the same thing with a different name and would have being just like Panagea in Forsaken in which nobody gave a fuck. But no, they choose Atlantis with all its pop culture baggage. So more disney movie bashing!

>>54632816
>Atlantis as myth was and continues to be a bad choice.
Only to stupid people.

>>54632816
Atlantis was effectively fixed with how retroactive Supernal shenanigans works out.

'Atlantis' is just a label for something that came before.

>>54632579
Yeah, the credit for the good of Mage the Ascension falls in the hands of its creators - and that includes 2e and 2eR - Brucato really didn't add much to it himself. Most of these people praising him seem to be kids who don't have a fucking clue about the source material and just assume he's the one who actually created the game.

>>54632961
>Only to stupid people.

So the developers then?

>>54633061
>just assume he's the one who actually created the game.
That's because Brucato acts like he did.

>>54626926
>Guide to the Technocracy

Except guide to technocracy wasnt intented as it was perceived. They wanted people to read that the whole book was written from the perspective of a brainwashed technocrat and that in truth they were evil black hats.

People didnt buy into that and took the book at face value and so Revised ran with it.

Then years later Brucatto came in Books of Secrets and said "NO, it was all part of the plan....seriously"

>>54633074
I mean that only stupid people don't understand why Atlantis is thematically appropriate to have in the fluff, as fact or as myth or as a label for a hubristic island state and instead choose to go "lol disney movie how lame". If a developer did that, then yes, they're stupid too.

>>54633185

There were plenty of other choices that didnt include atlantis and its particular pop culture baggage. They should know they market, and their market is geeks who are rarely educated in plato but do see lots of animation and read lots of comics.

I agree it makes sense but that doesnt means it was a good choice to attract people to the game. Awakening survive as a product in spite of atlantis not because of it. Stupid people make up the market, the average user is not gonna dig google on atlantis before they buy the game and worse back when the game was released.

They would see atlantis with the few concepts that pop in their heads after either comics, disney movie or maybe indiana jone. Then see the aquatic theme cover and finally see the "disney movie font" on the logo and that would seal the deal in the mind of most. I would say that mage survive thanks to a mixture of piracy which allowed people to try the game for free, the WW brand that used to mean some quality was involved, that it had better mechanics than ascension and some solid ideas and those people with shitty taste that love atlantis from the get go.

>>54633120
Which is hilarious, because it really cast how asinine his own personal spin on the whole "virtue" of the traditions were, and "pure evil" of the technocracy. The very idea that the technocracy could be right was so anathema to him that he was just fuming about it until he tried to save face with Revised was just priceless.

>>54633314
If stupid people do dismiss the game because of Atlantis, that's just another point in its favor to me. Means I have a smaller chance of getting into a game with a stubborn moron. I would also lose a lot of respect for the developers if they decided against Atlantis and said it was because they were worried about alienating some consumers. That's a road that leads to products becoming shit, when you prioritize the consumer and profits over the product.

>>54633489
I'm pretty sure he genuinely doesn't know what science is as a concept.

>>54633489
>The very idea that the technocracy could be right was so anathema to him that he was just fuming about it until he tried to save face with Revised was just priceless.

Its even more low, he wasnt involved in Revised so his statement in Books of secrets was him stealing the credit of the actual writers of revised and throwing them under the train for "ruining his vision"

>>54633557

I love this idea of "the artist vision" and hippie bullshit like

>That's a road that leads to products becoming shit, when you prioritize the consumer and profits over the product.

This kind of moronic black & white thinking is what lead to OPP "artist vision" cancer giving us David Hill jr and Brucatto on M20. Is not all black and white. You can make a good product and obey the laws of marketing and positioning. Again they could have called the city Babel or so just "xutkuala" or whatever.

>>54633578
Figures. The guy is a piece of shit through and through.

>>54633557
>If stupid people do dismiss the game because of Atlantis, that's just another point in its favor to me.

Do you realize that what you are saying is that you are glad that Awakening has less fans that it could have had. Which would have made it more popular and profitable and thus a more valuable IP for OPP to invest money on signifying more books.

So what you are a saying is "i like that OPP does give more attention to mage and that Signs of Sorcery hasn't being release yet"

>Deviant: the Renegades is in first draft

Hooray! I was hoping for an open call for writers but honestly, better that it start now than later. Dave hires good people either way.

Deviant has finally entered the First Drafts, but Signs of Sorcery still languished in "Development" purgatory.

http://theonyxpath.com/the-dog-days-of-august-sorta-monday-meeting-notes/

It seems Dave only cares about his new toy, and has given up on Mage.

This is the most funny quote from the monday meeting notes i ever read considering the source and that under a Leblanc illustrations

>The making of art and entertainment is integral to what we do, but nothing will get published if we make too many bad and unprofitable deals.

I guess all that coke Rich sniffs haven't given the self awareness he desperately needs.

>>54633649
It's not hippie bullshit. I never said anything about "the artist vision", so I don't know why you're quoting that. A creator making what they want with no consideration for input isn't always a guaranteed success, or even a respectable thing. Editors exist for a very good reason. But I do maintain that when you fret too much about the consumer, about how much money you'll make, and when you bend to those whims, you lose integrity and your creation loses character in favor of being watered down and inoffensive, more palatable for the lowest common denominator. Which is literally what you're saying they should have done. Apparently the very term 'Atlantis' is too high brow for most people, so they should have made it not!Atlantis with some made up or ill-fitting name, even thought it would still be clearly based off of classical Atlantis. And all so they could potentially reel in those people who consider 'Atlantis' to be a deal breaker because they're stupid.

>>54633796

A few threads ago, he literally just said he could now get back to Mage since the writing process has started. The developer doesn't really do anything during the actual drafting phase, since the writers need to actually draft. That's enough time to make some progress on developing Mage books.

>>54633750
I would rather something I like be dead or obscure than creatively compromised. It's a moot point though, because Awakening is still having supplements made for it, and Signs of Sorcery and many other books are late because of internal reasons, not because the games are failing and definitely not because Awakening doesn't have this supposedly substantial fanbase boost it would have gotten from stripping the word 'Atlantis' from all the books.

>>54634035
>Apparently the very term 'Atlantis' is too high brow for most people, so they should have made it not!Atlantis with some made up or ill-fitting name, even thought it would still be clearly based off of classical Atlantis. And all so they could potentially reel in those people who consider 'Atlantis' to be a deal breaker because they're stupid.

Yup, is what i am saying. Keeping the same deepness with a different skin. Sell more books, make more money, produce more books and the "high brow" people can just read between the lines. Also because there is way more stupid people than "high brow " people.

If of course your definition of "high brow" people is people who like Awakening, which... ok, you should get out more.

>>54634119
>a moot point though, because Awakening is still etc etc

Sure, like i said. Awakening remains in spite of Atlantis naming choice not because of it. It was a bad marketing/Positioning decision. But a product can survive a mistake, just dont pretend it wasn't one.

>>54634145
>"high brow"
>"high brow"
>"high brow"
>" "
Evidently you can't into context clues, but what I meant by saying "apparently" and "the very term" is that it's not actually high brow at all and anybody with more than half a brain won't just dismiss it because lol disney. Awakening isn't high brow. It's a fucking made up game where people roleplay as wizards. And maybe OPP would be making for books for it if they had more money, but that would require them having even an iota of professionalism first.

>>54634268
>but that would require them having even an iota of professionalism first.

Part of being a professional is knowing also when to compromise for profit.

>>54634246
>just dont pretend it wasn't one.
I'm pretending that it wasn't one just as much as you're pretending that it was. I haven't argued that Atlantis boosted sales. I stated my opinion that pandering to the lowest common denominator in hopes for a boost to that sweet, sweet revenue is a bad creative decision that demeans the product. If you want me to take your criticism seriously, you'll have to show me the source where you can see all the lost sales from people being turned off by 'Atlantis'. Otherwise I'm totally free to pretend whatever I want about it without being wrong.

>>54634301
That happens when professionalism overtakes creative integrity and all you care about is pumping out enough products to keep your IP relevant and trendy so the cash keeps flowing in.

>>54634342
>I loved the matrix
k just get over your trench coats and fedora fad please

>>54634609
I'm sure that was a great comeback, but I don't get it. The Matrix was alright.

>>54632579
Well, yeah. He never actually wrote Guide to the Technocracy. He may have done work on the titles listed above, but he wasn't the sole contributor, he was the dev. In 1e and 2e there were probably people around to pull him in line, but M20 is all on him. It is Episode One and he is George Lucas, you dig?

>>54634626
That's right, everybody was raving about it, everyone went to see it. This faggot >>54634609
probably doesn't get it because he was still shitting his pants about getting home to watch Saved By The Bell at that time.

>>54633772
Oh fuck, here we go again. Another splat while everything else gets starved of attention, fuckin A.

>>54633314
>pop culture baggage

Before anyone dismisses this claim out of hand... how many people here had an Egyptian styled game derailed by people making Stargate jokes?

>>54634805

I have had 5 games derailed by Yu Gi Oh jokes at the expenses of Egyptian.

So i will be playing a changeling game next week, 1st edition.

I am making an ogre expert in grappling, what are the most OP combat styles i could grab for grappling?

>>54634626

https://omni.media/the-matrix-and-gnosticism

Its right there in the power stat

>>54635061
Ok? How is that relevant? Are you bashing me for just liking Awakening? What does that have to do with Atlantis, or anything that was being discussed?

>>54629574
Secret Order of the Gate, Tamers of the Cave, Cnn Anwen.

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>>54635122
you're acting retarded. stop that. you've demonstrated intelligence. sliding back is foolish.

Mage Awakening = Gnosticism game
Matrix = Gnosticism movie

Matrix is the start of the trenchcoat fags. Matrix has pop culture baggage. Atlantis has pop culture baggage. It's call observational comedy.

>>54629263
There *are* a shitload of disciplines, even if they're just bloodline ones, that feed people vitae. Hell, Dorjan is basically able to do it anywhere in the city on zero notice. He doesn't even need to leave his house to feed; he can just eat anyone in the city and then jam the new vitae into another vampire's arsehole.

If you look at Rowen's statline, it gives Contacts (Cassandra's Vision) 3. They're a guardian cabal who run a bookstore. If I had to guess, I'd assume that of the five people in that cabal it isn't the first degree master and 3rd degree adept or the turbo autistic warlock (literally). Which means her followers as statted in 1e have:
1: Gnosis 4, Prime/Forces 4, Time 3
2: Gnosis 3, Life 3, Mind 1, Prime 2, Spirit 3
3: Gnosis 3, Death 3, Forces 2, Matter 3, Prime 2

Since Rowen stalked them for literally years to manage it, and is, well, Rowen, beating them one at a time over those time periods it isn't beyond the pale.

>>54635187
I guess it's just going over my head then. I understand your point, but I don't get the joke.

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>>54635269

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>>54635173
I just looked up the Cave Tamers. Holy shit. That example character. I thought the Silver Ladder was bad. 1e statlines are nuts. 9 gnosis?

>>54635187
Not who you were talking to but it seems like you just decided to make a pop culture reference because it's appropriate to the game line, but added nothing to the conversation which was "is using atlantis as a name for your pre-fall society stupid or not".

Can someone explain the occultation merit and sympathy to me? Like, does it mean you need a minimum of hair/blood to use sympathetic magic at 3 dots, or do you just suffer a minimum penalty of the 'weak' sympathy level on withstand?

>>54635331
In 1e I always got the feeling that archmages were really fucking rare. Like, reaching high gnosis but never finding what you needed to truely transcend was pretty common (that's why you have people with third attainments,which is like gnosis 7, still around on earth).

>>54635388
Well, this one is also probably a reincarnated medieval saint.

I think Imperial Magic pegged it as being 30 odd archmasters. And no banishers, because they're arseholes.

>>54635331
A lot of the 1e Mage characters were total Sues

Including that bitch

>>54635415
Just under a hundred, page 56.

>>54635415
There's never more than a hundred Archmasters at a single time.

>>54634718
Yeah, back when it was White Wolf there was actual editorial control from the publisher. Now it's just lazy, indulgent shite - with the 20th anniversary stuff. The CofD stuff seems the opposite, it's heads and tails above oWoD in quality in general over oWoD stuff in its own ways, though I think that's a credit to its line developers. With the exception of Beast, which is utter trite fanwank in quality, not even - fansplats generally were better products than the piece of shit that Beast was, in almost every way.

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>>54634609
Bitch, you just pulled the wrong trigger.

How old is the common Archmaster? Or rather, at what age does one *usually* pass the Threshold?

>>54635481
I think it's random in nWoD. Every mention of them says that everyone who goes looking usually dies with no idea of what the hell is going on. So everyone from that really plucky teenage black scientist girl with the afro patronised by a billionare to the old man in the nursing home who spends his time fucking with the nurses' skirts.

oWoD, it tended to be the folks who were hundreds of years old already. It was also a trap, because archmasters practically never ascended. Even had a merit to reflect it.

Atlantis is fine, and it never hurt sales. The bitches complaining about it are just the old tradition fags. They raised a SHITSTORM of huge proportions (as magefags are prone to do whenever a new version comes out, you should have seen the storm of tears and verbal diarrhea that hit when Revised was published), when Awakening came out and their precious Traditions and Technocracy were gone, and a *gasp* eurocentric origin story was given. They shit the bed bigtime, and there are still holdouts who haven't let it go, even though as has been pointed out, it's an excellent tale of hubris, and suits Mages quite well.

>>54635481
More than likely 40+ at least. Everyone Awakens at a different age, and excluding PC privilege it can take a while to reach multi-Master status.
They're probably all wizened figures. Befitting their rank as Seekers.

>>54635502
I highly doubt a teenager would be eligible for Archmastery. That's just bordering on Anime bullshitium.
Passing the Threshold would require buttloads of experience.

You're right about oWoD Archmages.

>>54635525
Revised was the beginning of the downfall of the game. There was no need for the fucking Avatar Storm. It was a power nerf that was just fucking uncalled for and just ruined some of the best parts of the setting. It was proof that the developers did not fucking get the game that was originally developed at fucking all.

>>54635525
>(as magefags are prone to do whenever a new version comes out
Are you serious? Are you really confining that behaviour to mage players? We still get 3.5 troll threads sometimes.

>>54635525
I liked Atlantis. Solely because it shat all over origin theories pertaining to Vampires.
They no longer came first.

I fucking -hated- the Caine background of the oWoD, it was the reason the metaplot sucked so bad.
Demon: The Fallen being another slap to the face, though that came out rather late in the loop.

>>54635481
In nWod?
Archmasters are crazy fucking rare.
First you need Gnosis 6, and an Arcanum at 5.
Then you need enough experience to increas the Arcanum further.

Then you need to go on a crazy difficult and complex quest to discover the nature of Dynamics. And much of the time you won't even have half a clue about what you're doing unless another Archmaster throws you a bone.

Then when you achieve your moment of Supernal Enlightenment, you've got to fjord the Abyss, experiencing literally every Paradox, contained, or otherwise, that you've ever caused.

Then, if you suceed at that, you arrive in the Supernal, and you've got a single action to realise you need to create a kind of shield, a lustrum about you to shield yourself from the true Supernal power, and avoid instantly dying.

Then you've got to face a Supernal entity, a powerful one, mind you, that challenges your right to be there. And then, and only then, when you defeat it, you have to return to the Phenomenal world, and start on the utter bottom rung of the long, reality-bomb equipped Cold War that is the Ascension War.

Where literal Gods, Ochemata, and Exarchs will all shit all over you if you so much as blink at their plans.

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>>54635615
Demon was a fun game.

>>54635614
Yeah, until the 3.5 nutcakes flipped their shit, I had never seen anything as bad as the magefags, you're right, but man, the mental fits they had when Revised came out... unfucking believable.

>>54635623
Yes, but how 'old' would the average *new* Archmaster be then?

>>54635623
>Archmastery
It's just not worth it, is it?

Not unless you really want to piss all over the blueprints of reality because you think your urine is somehow more meaningful than the lives of billions.

>>54635614
Buh buh buh those other fags also got all faggoty!

That they were awful too doesn't make you any less fucking terrible. You have always been the worst goddamn community in gaming. Which has sadly done a great game significant injustice.

>>54635679
Earliest would likely be 30's, given how long it takes in fluff to reach such an advanced level of power. A 20's, or heaven forbid, teenage Archmaster is wishful thinking, a 'mystery' involving time travel, or a blatant Sueism.

Most would have achieved it in their 40's and 50's as after a while if you haven't achieved Archmastery, you likely wouldn't manage to find what you're looking for.
So there likely aren't going to be 70 or 80 year old fresh Archmages.

>>54635623
>and avoid instantly dying.

Isn't failing to pass the Threshold worse than death on all accounts?
You get deleted, with no chance of an 'After'.

Done for good
No more of that thing you call 'consciousness'

>>54635723
Possibly, all that's known is (by Archmasters) that anyone who fails gets retroactively erased from existence.

What 'happens' to them?
Is unknown.
Perhaps they get rendered down into a Supernal subroutine.
Perhaps they fall off of the kharmic wheel.

I don't like to think that simply through being in the Supernal you are somehow 'erased'.
Sure there's no more 'you', but what constitued what 'you' were? Is probably somewhere.
More juice to make Ochemata out of or something.

>>54635719
Or if Mage was written by Dave Hill, where the real world was like some fucked up imaginary Japanese Cartoon, the only people capable of Archmastery would be teenagers or pre-teens.

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>>54635719
The example of a newly minted Archmage in Imperial Mysteries was in his late sixties.

I imagine Merlin was probably the quintessential old bearded wizard during his time in pre-deleted Arthurian Britain.
I actually can't picture Merlin any other way, his appearance would damn well be symbolic with the legend itself.

And we all know just how big symbolism can be.

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>>54635703
>because you think your urine is somehow more meaningful than the lives of billions.

Isn't that one of the basic requirement to achieve Gnosis 2?

Mages are probably the biggest assholes in the CofD (or second to Beasts).

>>54635810
Late 60s is a good time.
Gets across that Archmasters are usually old dudes well, without making him too old.

No good reason a sufficiently focused 40 year old or so couldn't manage to achieve Dynamics.

>>54635829
It's a quick way to reach Gnosis 2, but while a main theme of the game is Hubris, that can take the form of the Mage grappling with and ultimately deciding not to follow a Hubristic path to power.

Of course, his life should be constantly beset by opportunities to take such power for himself, and he's by no means a Mage in the majority, but a moralistic Mage is no long shot.

>>54635710
Don't seem to remember painting myself as part of any mentioned community beyond posting in a thread related to one, friendo. Version shitfits are common to *every* game line.

>>54635810
I hope to god Merlin in Dark Eras: Britain is an old bearded dude.

I fucking LOATHE young Merlins.

>>54635829
>"The Awakened are, barring a few saintly and Wise esceptions, Right Shits.
>Right Shits

That's just mean!

>>54635923

>>54635703
Eh. It's more that the Boddhisatvas and the Exemplars are decent 'people'. The others are just continuing their earthly bullshit. The Alienated are the power hungry ones who didn't have an Exarch around to bind to.

>>54635871
>I hope to god Merlin in Dark Eras: Britain is an old bearded dude.

Don't forget this is OPP/WW.

I expect to see transgender Muslim BlackLivesMeriin to show up in Camelot demanding to be addressed with a special pronoun.

Do we have a collection of DaveB screenshots compiled somewhere? I want to glue them to my wall and ask them if they would fuck me.

>>54635765
They're just deleted. Supernal is truth, and your truth gets obliterated for being weak and girly in the face of other truths.

PoEternity's Durance would be thrilled.
>>54635810
There are others who appear younger, though. One who wouldn't have a way of reversing her aging appears in her mid 30s. Once you get that sweet, sweet golden road, aging becomes weird since you're technically meditating out of yourself.

>>54635933
Please no

>>54635798
>David Hill
>the only people capable of Archmastery would be teenagers or pre-teens

and anarch-communists...

Dante ascended in his 20s

>>54635963
Dante was a prodigy of prodigies though. He was an anomaly. An understatement even.

He was Awekened at birth. That's huge.

>>54635963
>owod
The old books were plagued by author insert marysue faggotry

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>>54635871
>>54635871
Sup.

>>54635981
Anomaly or not. That's Gary Stu material.

It also goes against how Archmastery is gained in Ascension. It takes centuries. I doubt even a prodigy would get that far in such a short amount of time

>>54635948
>Do we have a collection of DaveB screenshots compiled somewhere?

Dave is like the Prince of 100,000 Leaves.

No one has compiled screenshots of all his comments. If they ever were all assembled by the faithful, there would be no telling what would happen.

>Komodos would rule the earth in the name of their Lord DaveB

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>>54636006
He got older in the end.

Fuck I hated that show

>>54635829
Ironically though, Dave's approach just makes things more grounded and relatable to me. How many people in real life are right shits? How often do you yourself act like one, and how often do we just dismiss people as being right shits? The answer is a lot, to all three. A lot of the 'good' people in life are people who are just nice by default, because they aren't particularly mean or selfish and we like them. Actually good people, who do good, are rare.

>>54635933
I doubt it. I've never seen Awakening do something so egregious, although to be fair I'm not an expert on all of the supplements. I don't know how it would be influenced from the Changeling side of things though.

>>54636031
Only because he had a fomori stuffed in him.

The very end, where he was getting splashed by lorries, was the best part of that show.
>>54636032
I get paid to be a right shit. It's kind of bizarre, to be honest.

>>54635933
>transgender Muslim BlackLivesMeriin

Don't give Rich any ideas.

>BlackLivesMerlin sounds like the name of a really annoying Free Council cabal that always disrupts Consilium meeting and complains about Sentinel brutality

>#NotAllMystagogues

>>54636006
As far as I recall this show was basically Merlin: Origins.

>>54635829
Power corrupts. I think it ironic that MacFarland is so oblivious to just how morally reprehensible and hypocritical in the usual SJW/tumblerina way the whole "lesson teaching" garbage thing comes off, especially given this revelation. He's just a shit designer.

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>>54635948
I made a little collection once.

>>54635963
That little faggot discraces the entire gameline through his existence.

OTHER THAN ALDOUS

Who's the strongest Archmaster currently in Awakening?

>>54635954
Good god, how could I forget that. The diamond would be as villainous as the Exarchs and the only real heroes would be the Free Council, an alliance between the pride parade, mages of colour and womyn mages.

>>54636081
>Beast
The game of lost potential

>>54636093
>>>54635948
>I made a little collection once.

What have you done?

You've doomed us all!

>>54635981
What books was this Dante in, I want to read this awful shit.

>>54636097
ArchMASTER? Kadmon, followed by Aaliyah.

>>54636097
Whoever you want.
Though that one guy who wants to breed Quiescence out of Sleepers, then repopulate the earth with his own personal breed, is a good contendor.

>>54636093
You can't call the token black mage a faggot, you faggot.

That means you're a leftist bigot.

>>54636104
Anyone got that image of the Eldar disguising themselves as a passing gay pride parade? Because that's all I can think of when this comes up now. The Free Council and a bunch of 40k loving fruits wh oturned the Eldar into a legacy.