/4eg/ - D&D 4e General

>>54174656

Eh, 4e is kinda dead. We aren't getting any new content. That being said, we also have more regular threads on it than some games which are currently getting supported, so there's that.

>1 reply 2 hours later
>thread about to 404

Wow you sure proved that 4e isn't a dead game lol

I actually feel sorry for 4e fags. Have a bump.

>>54176953

Why do you care?

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>let's play the "all martials are casters" edition

Nah

>>54176953
>>54177126
I'm not sure what's worse. Bullying the OP like this or leaving the thread to die in this sad state

>>54177126

Please don't spread ignorant lies

What are some hybrid classes that work well together?
I've been using a fighter/swordmage for years now, and the damn thing is unkillable. Used a feat to have the battlerager figthing style, got myself the utilitary powers "Unbreakable" and "Unstoppable". Enemies don't even touch my actual hitpoints behind my wall of temporary hitpoints.

>>54178056

I've heard a lot of good things about Barbarian/Sorcerer, although generally I avoid hybrids. I get enough decision paralysis playing 4e without getting into that extra layer of complexity.

>>54178079
I'm the exact opposite. I love the wide range of possibilities and combinations it opens. You can reinforce the strong points of a class or just try and make it all around moderate. It really tickles my inspiration bone.

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>>54178056
>>54178079

The strongest overall hybrid classes are probably:

• The hybrid assassin (executioner), because its hybrid striker feature is compatible with basic attacks, which opens up builds such as an assassin (executioner)|warlock spamming Eldritch Strike.
• The hybrid cleric, because gaining Battle Cleric's Lore is a great deal for many characters. This is depreciated in value if the DM allows the Divine Healer multiclass feat to provide Battle Cleric's Lore, of course.
• The hybrid druid (sentinel), for offering in a single package an animal companion, a 1/encounter leader heal, and solid controller powers such as Magic Stones, Summon Giant Toad, and Charm Beast.
• The hybrid paladin (cavalier), for giving up essentially nothing. A character with this hybrid who sinks a feat into Hybrid Talent can have plate armor, a heavy shield, a functional defender feature, and a 1/encounter leader heal.
• The hybrid warlock, for offering plenty of versatility in optimized character-building, and for being more flexibly-buildable than a pure-classed warlock. This is how you get builds such as a catch-22 paladin|warlock spamming Eyebite or Hellish Rebuke, for example.

The archived remnants 4e CharOp board offer examples of more specific hybrid builds, including a bevy of "________switch" builds like the "killswitch" (hybrid artificer|warlord), and a hundred and one hybrid battleminds abusing Lightning Rush and Brutal Barrage in some fashion.

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>>54178079

The barbarian|sorcerer seems like a good idea on paper. However, it is undermined by the fact that barbarian optimization revolves around either charge optimization or multiattack optimization, sorcerer optimization focuses mostly on Flame Spiral optimization, and it is rather difficult to squeeze *both* onto a single character.

For example, consider a generic sorcerer with Superior Implement Training, a Siberys Shard of the Mage, Dual Implement Spellcaster, a feat for a feat bonus to damage rolls with the relevant sorcerer powers, and an item for an item bonus to damage rolls with the relevant sorcerer powers. These will stack up to provide solid damage output for a sorcerer, particularly with the likes of Flame Spiral. However, a hybrid barbarian|sorcerer will be very hard-pressed to scrounge up even some of these without undermining the barbarian side.

Likewise, a barbarian has more to gain from being a hybrid paired with a hybrid cleric (for raw AC) or a hybrid warden (for AC, marking, and a multiattack like Wildblood Frenzy).

>>54178208
Nice. It seems that whichever game one turns to, paladins are always a very reliable choice. Tanky, healing and buffing. It's pretty crazy.

One thing that always annoyed me about 4E was the power swapping as you increased in level. It always felt shit to have to lose one option for another, or get a slightly better version of what you already had.

>>54179629

Yeah, it's an inelegant mechanic. At the same time, stopping getting new powers at a certain point would be dull, but you'd have to lose some or the number of options would get ridiculous.

Something I'm pondering with a few friends is a system that makes use of both new powers and upgrades for existing powers, letting you swap things out or just keep making what you already have better, ideally getting the best of both.

>>54179661
I've thought about granting one new power slot per tier, but yeah 4E can get pretty crazy with the amount of options people have. I know why they did it, but I agree with both of you that it feels kinda crappy. Especially when a bunch of the higher-level powers are, as noted, simply incremental upgrades to earlier ones.

>>54179661
>>54179765

I had just considered letting characters have encounter power charges that they can use. They never forget powers, and then can use encounter abilities in any combination.

>>54179840

The problem there is that it'll just lead to spamming the same power over and over, which is a much more dull and less interesting combat dynamic than having a significant opportunity cost associated with every power use.

>>54179870
Apologies. They can use them in any combination, but not the same one more than once. Basically, the same number of available powers, but they can bring old ones to bear if the situation calls for it.

>>54179870
If the same power is always the best then your encounter design is shit.

>>54179840
My memory is a bit rusty and I never played one, but isn't this how Wizards worked more or less?

>>54179926
Sadly, no. Wizards have a spellbook and the ability to learn multiple daily and utility powers, then change them out after a long rest. Psions, however, learn multiple at-wills and can choose to enhance them using encounter-based power points.

>>54174656
I'm a fan. I still run 4e, and don't see anything else becoming my go-to game to run any time soon.

I wonder if was wise to make this thread while the troll thread is still up...

>>54180078
There are feats that let Martials do something like this, IIRC.

So, who else here feels that the Swordmage was the first "gish" since the AD&D multiclassed Fighter/Mage to actually get the gish feel RIGHT?

>>54181542
I don't think it was the first one, some psionics/clerics/hexblade/PrCs came pretty close to it.

But yeah, it was the first one that also wasn't jank.

Anyone got any 4e lore they particularly love?

One thing that immediately comes to mind is the Goddess of Redemption, Nusemnee. I think it's because she's the first deity with that portfolio I can think of who doesn't have any extra baggage - she's just all about helping people to be better than they were.

As a big fan of Monster Adventurers, I really, really dig that idea. Just the mental image of a scarred, stoic-looking orc holding a small, rough-hewn holy symbol and methodically chanting the tenets of his goddess to himself:

* It is never too late to seek redemption.
* True heroism does not come from good deeds. It comes from doing good when it matters.
* Nobody is perfect. Those who seek to be perfect will fail. It is not a shame to fail, and it is not a waste to try.
* Open your heart to possibilities. Never give up hope.

To me, that's a powerful image, and a hell of a lot stronger than a bunch of busty drow dancing naked under the moon with a lot of suggestive imagery.

On the opposite end of the spectrum, I really, really dug Codricuhn. I mean, he's the freaking 4e equivalent of Godzilla - a Demon Prince so big he can physically *climb* out of the Abyss, who carries his domain with him wherever he goes, and who is so scary that even other Demon Princes have tried to stop him. That's a pretty damn impressive image!

>>54182107
I loved points-of-light as the default setting, though 4e really shined independent of lore or fluff.

So, who else preferred the World Axis to the Great Wheel? I found the former far more inspiring and fleshed-out than the latter, personally.

>>54178079
I wish I could make it work. Maybe I'm looking at it wrong and I should be going for a TWF build with dagger in the off-hand as an implement instead of just trying to twink it for the usual stuff.

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>>54188018

>>54188018

The World Axis is more usable. Whether this is a good thing is apparently up for debate.

I don't really get the opposing view, but there was a huge thread about it a few weeks ago, with the opposing view being that having large chunks of the setting with nothing interesting to adventure in that only exist for pattern completion were better than just focusing on things that were fun places to actually go and, you know, adventure, because if everywhere was an adventure location the world felt more arbitrary and less authentic.

Given how utterly arbitrary the great wheel has always seemed to me, it was a bit confusing.

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This is quite late, but I was asked in a previous thread to post again after my next session. Last time I had asked what to do about my party withdrawing early from a sewer investigation to rest up, and the consensus was for the beholder antagonist to complete his planned ritual to mentally dominate the a local noble (in actuality, the town mayor).

With the mayor under its control, the beholder was able to send the city guard to arrest the party, who were resting at an inn. Thanks to a kobold that survived a fight with the party and reported to the beholder, it already knew who they were. The party, upon seeing a troop of guardsmen approaching the inn, made a quick exit and managed for a while managed to avoid capture. However, thanks to some horribly botched streetwise rolls putting them over the failure threshold of the skill challenge, they ended up getting caught at the edge of the high-class district where they were arguing about the best way to sneak back into the sewer.

The party decided not to resist arrest once surrounded. Surrendering their weapons, they allowed themselves to be escorted to the local keep and locked in the dungeon. The tiefling ardent asked the officer who brought them in if she could write a letter to the mayor arguing for their release, as no formal charges had been brought against them and they had previously struck a deal with the mayor to investigate a nearby swamp. The officer, himself uncertain as to why the mayor had ordered him to arrest the party, acquiesced and brought her some writing supplies.

1/X

>>54188265
Hey hey, is the revenant dragonborn guy returning?

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>>54188265
Talking it over among themselves, the party realized that legally they had very little standing; while a citizen of the duchy couldn't be held for more than a month without charges, only one of the five people in the party was actually a citizen. Furthermore, even if they were to wait a month for the one citizen to be released, that would rob them of the opportunity to deal with several time-sensitive matters. Even in light of this realization, however, they found themselves somewhat at a loss, and after sending the letter they decided to simply pass the remainder of the day waiting in prison.

The next day they were greeted by the captain of the guard, a man with whom they had several dealings previously. The guard captain was just as puzzled as the party about their arrest; indeed, he was rather vexed that not only had his authority been directly bypassed by the mayor, but he hasn't even been informed of the order. Only the fact that the party's letter had passed across his desk on its way to the mayor had alerted him to the situation. The guard captain promised that he would consult with the mayor himself in an attempt to understand the situation and would advocate for their release, but the direct involvement of the mayor put the matter beyond his direct authority.

Thus assured, the party passed another day in prison. The tiefling started becoming a bit agitated, as she had a side-quest assigned to her by the rather shady organization she belongs to that was quickly running out of time. Fortunately for her the organization had already taken a note of her predicament and so they managed to slip her a prison key in one of her meals. Even so, she was still nervous to act, and the rest of the party found themselves similary uncertain. Finally they decided to wait until nightfall and then send the drow hunter alone to sneak out of the keep and see if he could find out why the mayor was acting so strangely.

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>>54188325
Apparently not. I messaged him and tried to find out when he would be rejoining us, but he didn't answer. I have since then changed the session schedule to accommodate an old player who had to drop out due to work, so it is unlikely dragonborn guy will be returning anytime soon.

>>54188353
Sometime near midnight the drow hunter snuck out of his cell and, in the dark stairwell of the dungeon, managed to wedge himself against the ceiling above the doorway, bracing himself against the walls on either side. The party then proceeded to make a ruckus, having a loud and semi-sincere argument about the winner of a chess match and accompanying it with some good old fashioned slamming of cell bars. One of the two guards came down into the dungeon corridor to find out what the problem was, at which point they asked him to arbitrate a chess match between the minotaur cleric and the tiefling ardent. Intrigued (and rather enthralled by the tiefling) he agreed, sending the other guardsmen to go retrieve a chess set from elsewhere in the keep.

Having secured an opening, the drow hunter slipped out of the dungeon and into the keep proper. With some good stealth and perception rolls he managed to navigate the keep without attracting notice, and one acrobatics check and athletics check later he had cleared the wall and was back out in the town. Beelining for the mayor's mansion he stopped just outside the grounds of the estate, scanning for signs of activity. A candlelight flickered from a second story window, and that was all the guidance he needed to climb the side of the manor and observe. He found the mayor simply sitting in his study, strangely still, as if waiting for something. As it so happened, he was waiting; while clinging to the wall and keeping his head out of sight of the window, the drow hunter eventually heard someone else enter the room.

3/X

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>>54188389
At first there was a brief conversation, the newcomer questioning the mayor on his mental state and general wellbeing, though oddly without a trace of sympathy or concern. Subsequently the hunter heard him begin a low chanting, upon which he decided to risk another look through the window. He was disturbed by what he saw: a man in noble finery holding a strange symbol over a slowly burning pile of fine, arcane powder on the mayor's desk while speaking unintelligible words of magic, all the while the mayor sitting stock still and staring unflinchingly forward. This nobleman, unknown to the party, is a coconspirator of the beholder, tasked with maintaining the ritual of mental domination upon the mayor. The spell requires daily renewal and an investiture of magical essence in the form of a powdery substance, colloquially known as 'pixie dust' and sold both as a magical reagent and as an addictive drug.

After the renewal ritual was complete the nobleman left the mayor's manor and returned to his own estate, the drow hunter tailing him all the while. Having discovered something of the mayor's situation and the residence of the plotting nobleman, the drow decided he he had learned enough. Creeping through the night he returned to the keep, sneaking in much the same way he had left. Miraculously the rest of the party had managed to keep the guardsmen busy with chess the whole time, whiling away the hours through endless arguments, cheating, and demands to review the moves of previous matches. Thanks to their distraction the drow hunter was easily able to sneak back into the dungeon, once more wedging himself against the ceiling, and once the guardsmen gave up on chess in disgust to return to their posts the drow came down from the shadows and returned to his cell.

4/5

>>54179661
>Something I'm pondering with a few friends is a system that makes use of both new powers and upgrades for existing powers, letting you swap things out or just keep making what you already have better, ideally getting the best of both.
13th Age does this.

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>>54188419
That's where we ended it. I was surprised at how little initiative the party showed once imprisoned; even when I nudged them towards escape with the key, and even though they more than likely could have escaped through force or wit, they chose to remain and wait it out. I'm not sure if it's simply a spirit of caution or if I just have some very lawfully-minded players. In the end it still worked out, and I think they're definitely going to enact an escape plan next time now that they know that the mayor is being magically influenced. This summary ended up being way longer than I expected; I could probably omit more detail than I did, but then it begins to lose its feel.

Pic related is the not-likely-to-return dragonborn warlock. We hardly knew thee!

5/5

>>54178208
>>54178365
2hufag is here, this is a truly a thread full of /4eg/gotry.

I've always had a soft spot for MwaO's Half-Elf Battlemind|Fighter/Daring Blade and Half-Elf Bard|Ardent/War Chanter. They take some quite unique combos and makes them work really elegantly.

>>54182107
I genuinely find Ioun to be one of the most fun and interesting goddesses we've had in a while. She kinda reminds me of Athena but far, far more badass.

>>54188480
That's a pretty fitting picture. Did he commish that?

I like the initiative you showed with the key. It'd be kinda funny if the thieves guild (or whoever that shady patron is) would tease the character about it. Like, what kind of shady criminal adventurer person can't even break out from prison?

>>54188509
I really wish I knew more about Ioun so I could better flesh out her article on 1d4chan. Ah well, I'm only one anon, I'm doing the best I can.

>>54188509
>I genuinely find Ioun to be one of the most fun and interesting goddesses we've had in a while. She kinda reminds me of Athena but far, far more badass.

I'm playing an Avenger of Ioun in a game currently. She's a ball to play, she had a fun talk with the (Very stupid but good hearted) fighter of the group about why she was reading a holy book of Bane. The idea that knowledge itself cannot be evil and that understanding someone doesn't mean agreeing with them.

>>54188325
Forgot to mention, I decided the revenant dragonborn warlock has been put into a magically-induced coma by the beholder draining him of his power to fuel the initial ritual. The process would have killed a non-reveannt, but his connection with the Raven Queen keeps him 'alive'. This leaves the option for him to someday return but gets him out of the picture for now.

>>54188570
Nope, he didn't commission it, though it looks like someone else may have. I don't know where he found the picture.

As for the key, it blew my mind a bit that they didn't immediately try to break out with it. I forgot to mention it, but I ended up having her organization sneak in a message for her the next day basically saying "we got you this key, you better freaking use it."

As for the organization, it's not so much a thieves' guild as an assassination/spy network. They often operate out of brothels and they gain influence by getting noblemen in their pocket via blackmail or other means. The tiefling's assignment actually involves blackmailing the mayor; her organization has poisoned the mayor's daughter, and she was tasked with 'offering' an antidote if he agrees to appoint a member of the org to the city council. This is a secret from the rest of the party.

>>54188710
Your game sounds pretty great anon. The lack of initiative they have shown looks a bit alarming, but probably nothing to worry about.

>>54188945
Thanks, it gladdens me to hear that. In the past I suffered from some overwhelming perfectionism and anxiety that made it hard for me to keep a game running. This campaign is my longest lasting one so far at 13 or 14 sessions. The party can be somewhat reticent at times, but so far they haven't been so indecisive as to make it a problem. They also assure me they are enjoying the game, and when they do have criticism I try to learn from it. All in all it's been a blast.

>>54177126
No, we're playing 4e.

>>54182326
Yeah, I love 4e because of that. It has it's own "setting" going on, but it's so loose that you can run any flavor you want. For me it's one of it's strongest points.

>>54189491
Yeah, that's the martials-are-casters edition. What the fuck do you think dailies are?

>>54191780

Narrative abstractions that make perfect sense in context?

>>54191871
>Narrative abstractions
lol no
>that make perfect sense in context?
In the context of what? A game system designed around balance at the expense of everything else? Daily powers are fucking awful, they were cancer in the limited amount they were present in 3.5, and the ones still in 5e (action surge and second wind) are also cancer. At least second wind makes sense because it exhausts you. But if a 4e maneuver exhausts you, you should get to use it more if you have a higher constitution. That just plain makes sense. But you can't, because the game is designed around being balanced instead of making sense. Balance is important but it can be achieved without making every class have the exact same mechanics and thus be boring and bland as fuck.

There is basically no different between a wizard and a fighter in 4e besides the ability scores they use to attack.

>>54192010

Nope. It makes perfect sense in context.

That you refuse to meet the system on even terms and try to understand how it works isn't the systems fault, it's you being painfully mentally inflexible and making assumptions based on things which are no longer true.

Martial daily powers are narrative abstractions. They do not represent a thing that exists in universe, but are instead a narrative tool given to the player, letting them choose a moment where their character gains the opportunity to do something fucking awesome. It only doesn't 'make sense' if you attempt to approach everything from a pure simulation perspective, which 4e explicitly does not.

>>54192010

>Balance is important but it can be achieved without making every class have the exact same mechanics and thus be boring and bland as fuck.

Why do people who know thing about the system always repeat these stupid lies?

>>54192010
>There is basically no different between a wizard and a fighter in 4e besides the ability scores they use to attack.

Mind linking which source book the fighter's fireball daily is in?

>>54192456
http://funin.space/compendium/power/Nimble-Bladestorm.html

its even the same level spell :^)

>>54193052

...Are you just trying to prove you don't understand the system? Because that's completely different to the fireball power.

>>54193090
im not the same guy but yes i have no fucking idea how 4e works

>>54193237

Basically, the power he posted is whirlwind attack, a melee AoE that hits everyone adjacent to the user, a pretty classic thing even in 3.PF.

The fireball, meanwhile, is a larger AoE at a greater range that targets a secondary defence.

So, I guess they're both area attacks, but both effects also existed in almost identical forms in earlier editions of D&D, so it's hard to see why it's being cited as a problem with 4e.

>>54193346
i'm pretty sure i remember Close burst 1 being 9 squares centered on the player

how big is Area burst 3? is it 9 squares that contain the target square?

>>54193578

It's a square counting three in every direction from the center point, so it'd be a 7x7 square.

However, it's also missing context on how powers interact with features. The Wizard one is better area damage, but the Fighter power is more accurate and will allow them to Mark everyone they attack with it, locking down a whole group of enemies and potentially opening them up to mark punishment or other debilitating effects if they don't focus on the Fighter.

>>54193658
Weapon vs AC is better than Implement vs Reflex?

i thought the proficiency bonus is about the same as difference between AC and Ref?

>>54193780

You're generally correct but Fighter is something of an exception, getting a flat attack bonus. That power also has an extra +stat to attack if you're using the right weapon, making it extremely accurate even compared to NAD targeting attacks.

>>54192099
> it's you being painfully mentally inflexible and making assumptions based on things which are no longer true.

Like assuming the mechanics have any relationship to the world, and that metagaming is bad? If so, I can live with that, because I don't like games with metagaming bullshit and judging by sales figures neither does most of the rest of the D&D community. Go play FATE if you want that kind of shit.

>That you refuse to meet the system on even terms
It provides nothing that makes it worth doing so. It could have easily been fairly balanced without martials having shitty once per day abilities that function in a completely nonsensical way.

Please read this article before you attempt to discuss the matter further: http://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/17231/roleplaying-games/dissociated-mechanics-a-brief-primer

>>54193052
>>54193090
>>54193237
It's a different ability, but it functions mechanically the same. Nimble Bladestorm is basically a spell, it's basically fireburst, or might as well be. except with slashing damage instead. 4e fighters are basically magic spellcasters of super power, that's the only explanation for why they can only do that shit once per day. Explain how my fighter knows that he can only do his super-cool disarm maneuver once per day.

>m-m-muh situational usage
Except he chooses when it happens, and how it happens. It doesn't require a specific situational set-up (like some of the 3.5 tactical feats did). Situation doesn't matter, thus this "argument" is invalid.

>m-m-muh he's tired
Then why doesn't he get extra uses of it for a high Constitution? It would make sense a high-Con character would get more uses of something based on vigor and energy. Except they don't because it isn't based on that.

>m-m-muh action movie
There are plenty of instances of action movie characters doing the same kind of maneuver twice in the same scene, let alone the same movie. This logic doesn't work either.

The real answer is, 4e is designed around being a tactical computer wargame with "cooldowns" on its epik maneuvers like fucking DOTA 2. It's a video game and nothing else, and 4e fags will just go "lol calling it a video game means you know nothing about the system" when in reality I just gave an irrefutable comparison to it being like fucking DOTA 2. The minion mechanics are another fine example.

>>54194318

I've read that article. It's shit and it makes the same logical leaps you are.

Your only valid point is that you don't enjoy meta-mechanics. And you know what? That's fine. That is an expression of personal preference, and it is entirely legitimate. Nobody is saying you have to play or like 4e.

But I will call you out as an asshole and an idiot if you keep trying to apply your personal preferences as objective standards and simply prove you aren't able to see beyond your own biases.

>>54194363

Except you're factually wrong. Like, we've even gone over it in the thread. They function in mechanically distinct ways, with their own nuances and benefits, despite both being area attacks.

You're either lying or being wilfully ignorant.

>>54194363

>m-m-muh action movie
>There are plenty of instances of action movie characters doing the same kind of maneuver twice in the same scene, let alone the same movie. This logic doesn't work either.

Wow, you are doing an amazing job of exhibiting your own ignorance.

>>54194363
>If I keep lying and repeating memes people will have to believe me!

>>54192010
>Daily powers are fucking awful, they were cancer in the limited amount they were present in 3.5, and the ones still in 5e (action surge and second wind) are also cancer.
3.pf's spellcasting system was cancer, yes. It was also the only interesting thing about the game, so I'm not sure which edition you think you're defending here.

>But if a 4e maneuver exhausts you, you should get to use it more if you have a higher constitution. That just plain makes sense. But you can't, because the game is designed around being balanced instead of making sense.
Fuck off.

This kind of autistic cherry-picking BUT IT'S LOGICAL shit really rustles my jimmies, because it's not JUST autistic bitching about certain trivial things but not others. No, it also invariably leads to things making less sense on top of that, because it completely eschews organic flow in the world in favor of this particular neurotic thing you're obsessed with.

Taking your example, sure, we could let you, what, use exhaust-keyword encounter powers Con mod times per encounter rather than once? Except then they have to be rebalanced to account for the fact that any frontliner is likely to have 14-16 in Con, and so be able to use them 2-3 times an encounter, which... well, that makes them pretty close to at-wills, only they exhaust you, so... yeah, you get an unholy abomination of meaningful and not-meaningful, saddled with "this is an important decision, consider when and if to use it" mechanics while stuffed in a "you have plenty to spare" use slot.

And the payoff for this jank? Well for one thing, the fighter gets to exhaust himself doing something strenuous three times a fight rather than once. You'd think exhausting yourself would prevent activity so strenuous it exhausts you, but NOT IF YOU HAVE HIGH CON! That just makes sense. Also, we got to apply a janky, hyper-specific relation between exhaustion (self-inflicted only, obviously) and Con. Not anything else, just those two exactly.

WORTH.

>>54194557
>any frontliner is likely to have 14-16 in Con
>in 4e

Hahahaha, no.

>>54194318
>I'm too much of a faggot to argue it myself so here have a distracting wall of text
You're a faggot.

>if I can't be bothered to explain it in-game, it has no attachment to the game WHATSOEVER and is a disassociated mechanic
>magic and magitech is immune to this
>in fact, you can fix disassociation by making it magic or basically magic
Not surprisingly, the author of that article is also a faggot.

More specifically, he (and by association you) are autistic faggots who repeatedly claim that if something doesn't fit your definition of realism/associativity/"making sense" (that is, if it rustles your jimmies and you're more interested in being mad at it than imagining a way for it to make sense), then it has no connection to the game at all, ever, in any way. This is, of course, patently stupid; at an absolute bare minimum, there's no fucking way association is all or nothing.

Trouble is, accepting that (dis)association is a gradient would open up the possibility that you and your buttbuddy's definitions are arbitrary, subjective, and maybe even open to alteration, which interferes with the narrative that these things are bad and illogical and wrong and don't make sense and dumb and have nothing to do with the game they're in.

So instead, like all autistic faggots before, you both draw a line in the sand, rant a lot about "true gaming" and its vile adversaries ("roleplaying versus playing a role," "unlike video games such as DOTA 2"), and generally make gigantic clowns of yourselves in the name of refusing to have fun.

I redact my previous statement about the risks of making the thread while a 4e troll thread is going on. There should always be a containment thread or the trolls spill over.

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>>54193090
>completely different

>>54196019
I haven't played 4E in about a billion years, but yeah, those powers are different. The top one has the Invigorating keyword which did something, I don't remember. The second has Rattling, don't remember its deal but at least this power differs from the top by being Dexterity based whether you are using a melee or ranged weapon, and the bottom power targets a completely different defense which can be useful against certain enemies and not others, but also has a weapon type requirement. For some reason, you're presenting them as if they're the same though.

>>54196019
This image has already been posted in this thread ad it continues to do nothing but throw confusion on the issue. Either you're posting it ironically because you actually understand 4e and keywords, or you're posting it ignorantly because you've jumped on the 'everything in 4e is identical to each other' bandwagon.

>>54196076
This image gets posted all the time for the above stated reasons. It needs to die.

>>54196076
>the only difference is a keyword
>t-they're completely different g-guys ;_;

>>54196099
And weapon types, but yeah. They're basic attacks. More differences than the "I hit it with my sword" attacks in other editions. But you used the stutter talk meme so your argument is null.

>>54196019
I don't think you realize how big of a fucking deal attacking different defense stats is. Typical paizophile, he only looks at the damage value. I bet you're a fatty too

>>54196099
Keyword, the weapons used, the stats used, and a defense targeted.

And these are your "normal" attacks. And they don't take into consideration that the fighter will mark with his, and the rogue will backstab with his.

>>54196099
>the only difference is that they do different things
>tripping and disarming in 3.pf are basically identical
>all cc spells are the same thing
>in fact all spells are basically the same
>all dice are basically the same
>all roleplaying games are basically identical

>>54196099
those keywords have associated mechanics tho

>>54196133
>the only difference is that they do different things
They do exactly the same fucking thing. 4rries are just too dumb to realise it because of slight differences in keywords.

>>54196076
http://funin.space/compendium/glossary/Invigorating.html
http://funin.space/compendium/glossary/Rattling.html

>>54196163
Those keywords make or break a party setup.

And nice pic, I knew you were a fatty.

>>54196099
>Invigorating
Gain temp HP, useful if you're on the front line
>Rattling
Inflicts -2 to enemy attacks, good at stopping things like opportunity attacks and allowing rogues to move around more

>reflex, tends to be lower than AC as it's not affected by what armour the enemy is wearing. Good against soldier types.

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>>54196205
>i like games where keywords can make or break a party setup
>w-what? n-no I'm not autistitc or anything!

>>54196203
>invigorating
>rattling
ugh, look at these two status effects. they're both basically the same, how can you even tell the difference between the two in combat? I honestly don't think my delicate immersion will ever recover

>>54196264
>EXACTLY THE SAME
>keywords
>THEIR CLEAR DIFFERENCES MAKE YOU AUTISTIC
Anon? You okay over there?

>>54196454
well the first gives you ~10% hp restoration each time the power is used while the second reduces an enemy's accuracy by 10% (which we all know is equivalent to 10% damage reduction in the long run)

mathematically, the difference is 1% less hp lost with the former compared to the latter but since that is smaller than the lowest possible difference in a d20 roll they are mechanically identical keywords

>>54197445
Nah, the debuff one applies to allies as well as to yourself, but only to the target (but all attacks of the target) while the THP only applies to yourself but against everyone that would damage you.

>>54197445
>reduces an enemy's accuracy by 10% (which we all know is equivalent to 10% damage reduction in the long run)
On a d20? No. The system suffers hard from increasing returns as you get further from an opponent's numbers.

Enemy has 50% chance to hit you for 10 damage. Average damage: 5. Reduce hit by 10%, 40% to hit for 10, average damage 4. 20% decrease in damage output.
Enemy has 60% chance to hit, 6 dmg avg. Reduce by 10%, 5 avg, ~17% reduction.
Enemy has 40% chance to hit, 4 dmg avg. Reduce by 10%, 3 dmg avg, 25% reduction.

In addition to being considerably larger than you were assuming, the exact benefits vary wildly based on the situation, namely what the enemy is trying to hit.

>>54196019
Had to go look up what the keywords meant because it's been years since I've played 4e, so are these translations correct?

Crushing Strike: Basic melee attack that gives temp HP 1/rd if you have the Endurance skill.

Disheartening Strike: Basic melee/ranged attack with specific weapon restrictions. If you have trained in Intimidate and the enemy isn't immune to fear, you give -2 to the enemy's to-hit.

Piercing Strike: Basic melee attack with weapon type restrictions that targets Reflex save.

Is that all about right? If so, why are these the same? The different uses for each are obvious.

>>54198041
if you expand the set of possible (unmodified hit chance->average damage) vs (modified hit chance->average damage) it does come out to 10% damage reduction

>>54198121
Crushing Surge also has an automatic rider effect that marks the target thanks to Fighter class feature

Disheartening Strike and Piercing Strike are both better than Basic melee attack by using Rogue's (highly likely) better Dexterity modifier. They can also deal more damage, at the player's discretion, by applying sneak attack damage from Rogue's class feature.

>>54198161

Thanks, I would have missed those anyway because I don't have access to a PHB.

So, all that being the case, Crushing Surge makes the tank more effective by marking the target and granting bonus HP for the counterattack, while Disheartening and Piercing Strike inflict more damage due to backstab. Piercing is more likely to be effective at targeting a character weak on defense, and Disheartening can be used to protect the tank at range or melee by adding a to-hit penalty to the target. Anything else I'm missing?

I really enjoy the fact that butthurt anons were boasting that this was a dead thread, but now are bumping it to the next dimension.
Cry some more, little assblasted.

i really enjoy the fact that people are responding "seriously" to my "serious" reply to shitposts

>>54196099
The difference between an ice lance and a fire bolt is only one keyword (cold or fire).

But what 4e did to you? Raped your mom? Your group moved on to it from other edition? You feel that the years/dollars you spent on other edition means nothing anymore?

Because even an autist or a troll would get tired after so many years, but you continue. It is personal to you in some matter.

I pity you and hope you recover. God's grace upon you, anon.

>>54198346
Have you not seen the harping on PF/3.5 or quests assholes on /tg/ havedone for over 8 years?

>>54198373
look i hate 3.5 and pathfinder as much as the next guy, but please do not slander them by associating them in any way with quest threads. there's no need to drag the level of discourse here down to that level

>>54198346
speaking of changing keywords, how many of you either changed or asked your DM to change keywords to fit a theme, or otherwise allow refluffing to impact the mechanics?

>>54198418

I've done that before with a Desert Wind Monk. Changed from Fire to Cold to fit the theme of the character.

>>54198418
I actually wonder how that'd work for the more out there things.

Like, we all know changing to cold or radiant is an upgrade because of the synergies those elements have, but what'd you do if you changed to, say, Weapon from Implement? Or divine from Primal? I have never thought about this and wonder what sort of impact it'd have.

I think it's simpler to just not do it, most of the time, aside from maybe the elemental ones (and even then I may enforce that your element is still the same for the purpose of feats and magical items you can use with it to stop any really gamebreaking synergies that may arise, although enemy resistances/vulnerabilities apply correctly).

>>54198418
I had a player that wanted to change some things around for a character that was basically Armstrong from FMA using the sorcerer as a base.
It was wildly successful, and the muscle wizard with his magic gauntlets and impeccable mustache has become one of my staple npcs.

>>54198422
>>54198459
don't the elemental magical weapons already provide a means to add/change keywords?

interchanging Weapon and Implement has mathematical balance implications so it's probably a bad idea

power source keywords probably have some minor effect depending on class or feat interactions. i generally understood them to be automatically assigned by the class type but a quick search shows there's a few utility powers that have two or more power source keywords with no discernable reason for them in the powers themselves

>>54198562
>don't the elemental magical weapons already provide a means to add/change keywords?

Yeah, but there's only a select few of them and you make the sacrifice of using a specific elemental weapon (your flaming axe can't also be reaping); they aren't even always available for everyone.

>>54198562
i underestimated power source keywords' impact.
they have frequent/major balance interactions with feats and also items which i didn't consider before

kinda hard to search for feats that mention "* power" when there were source books titled exactly those terms

>>54198129
Alright, but most of that range isn't going to get used all that often, and especially not within the same encounter. Unless I'm misremembering how often things hit the players, enemy hit chances should be middle-lowish, and thus the average reduction on the higher side than with a complete spread.

>>54198418
Took the wrong kind of Sorceror power once because it had random effects and everyone loves random effects. I forget if I wasn't supposed to have it at all or the GM let me use class features or my preferred secondary stat for it or what, but it was neat to have.

>>54198562

Implement users (Like monks) are a bit out of luck on that front.

>>54194777
At least all the Defenders and some Strikers and some Leaders and some Controllers. Oh, and everyone tries to get a +1 minimum.

Also for the love of shit you fucks, don't feed the trolls.

>>54200703

But they make funny noises when you poke them

>>54200641
What? No, no they don't, 14-16 Con is only if you're trying to meet a prereq.

>>54200947
I'm no charop and not the one you're answering to, but you mean that aside CON classes, there's little incentive to have higher CON?

>>54194418
>They function in mechanically distinct ways
How so?
>with their own nuances and benefits
Oh, nuance. Yeah. I'm sure there are slight differences between fighter powers and wizard powers. The point is that the mechanics behind them are the exact same, i.e. the once-per-day bullshit.

>>54194397
>I've read that article. It's shit and it makes the same logical leaps you are.
Explain how then, without just a "wah wah it's not true cause I said so"

>Your only valid point is that you don't enjoy meta-mechanics.
Metamechanics do not belong in a roleplaying game. In a storytelling game like FATE, they would be fine. But, like Bennies in Savage Worlds, they literally encourage you to metagame, and thus are a shit mechanic for a ROLEPLAYING game where you take the ROLE of a character.

>>54202083

FATE is a roleplaying game. Your arbitrary lines in the sand are meaningless.

>>54194449
>if I keep saying he's wrong without an argument, people will have to believe me!

>>54202083

What's the difference between a storytelling and roleplaying game?

>>54202120

He likes one and doesn't like the other.

>>54202083

Ahh, you're one of those people whose immersion is incredibly fragile. I'm sorry for mocking your inability.

I guess I just find it so easy to play a role while also considering the mechanics and my characters place in the narrative that I assume everyone should be capable of it. I should keep that in mind in future, to not accidentally shame or mock those more disadvantaged.

>>54194557
Dude I agree it's jank. That's the entire point. The "more Con means more use of daily" was not a serious suggestion, it was meant to show why the "using a daily tires you out that's why you can only use it once per day" argument is bullshit.

>>54194898
If you want me to summarize the article, fine. But i figured you'd read it before. Also, magic is magic, it's its own explanation. If you explain why fighters are supernatural and thus should only be getting their cool disarm once per day, then I'll be more satisfied.

>Trouble is, accepting that (dis)association is a gradient would open up the possibility that you and your buttbuddy's definitions are arbitrary, subjective, and maybe even open to alteration
No it's not. The answer is: does the mechanic relate directly to something that actually exists in the game world, that the character is aware of? That's a simple acid test that 4e maneuvers fail, as do a lot of the "daily powers" in 3.5 and 5e. You can use hit points and flanking as examples but those are both things that characters are aware of.
> in the name of refusing to have fun.
"Fun" in a nonce word when discussing game design. Don't use it because it makes a "gigantic clown" of you, too.

>>54201287
Yeah pretty much.

>>54196019
>attack roll versus a reflex save (well, static defense, but still)
>but armor class is for defending

lol

>>54194363
>4e is designed around being a tactical computer wargame with "cooldowns" on its epik maneuvers like fucking DOTA 2. It's a video game and nothing else
It doesn't matter how much similarity exists between 4e and video games, the 4rries will never accept it.

It's like they're selectively blind.

I don't know why they can't admit this. It's not even necessarily a bad thing.

>>54202221

>Does the mechanic relate directly to something that actually exists in the game world, that the character is aware of?

Why does this matter? You keep holding it up as some standard and act as if it's important, but you've provided no basis. It's just an assertion with no foundation.

>>54198240
Talking about how shitty 4e is, is the only thing that keeps these threads bumped. 4e has a lot of good ideas and good design, though, and as a game is pretty well made, the assumptions made by the maneuver system are just retarded though

>>54202268

Because it's a stupid comparison. 4e is much more obviously inspired by boardgame and wargame mechanics. The vidya 'similarities' have always been extremely dumb and weak.

>>54202274

>assumptions made by the maneuver system are just outside of my preferences and playstyle

Fixed that for you

>>54202100
>FATE is a roleplaying game.
No it's not.
>Your arbitrary lines in the sand are meaningless.
To a person with zero sense of subtle distinction, yes, they would be meaningless. Precise and accurate mean the same thing, too, right?

>>54202128
I never said I didn't like storytelling games. I just dislike storytelling games (like 4e D&D) tha advertise themselves as roleplaying games.

>>54200641
>defenders, strikers, leaders, controllers

Holy fuck I'm glad they got rid of these stupid terms that reduce classes to being nothing more than combat roles.

More proof that 4e is just a video game in paper format.

>>54202300

But they're all roleplaying games.

>>54202170
Immersion is a meme.

>I guess I just find it so easy to play a role while also considering the mechanics and my characters place in the narrative that I assume everyone should be capable of it.

Yes, this is a basic aspect of roleplaying. The issue is when you know that you can do X Y and Z power whenever you want, but only once per day, and thus your actions as a player do not make sense from your character's perspective.

>>54202313

Protip- Those all existed in 3.PF. They just sucked at making them all work and didn't tell you what each class was designed to do.

>>54202325

Why don't they? It makes perfect sense to me. I've never had any problem with it.

>>54202295
>I'm a retard who thinks that "I like it so fuck you" is a valid response in a game design discussion

Fixed that for you.

>>54202281
It's quite an accurate comparison actually.

What wargame/boardgame gives characters the same number of powers with cooldowns. Show me an example.

That shit is pulled directly from diablo and wow. Stop denying it. Even the devs were playing wow like crazy during 4e's development.

>>54202300

>I never said I didn't like storytelling games. I just dislike storytelling games (like 4e D&D) tha advertise themselves as roleplaying games.

Then can you answer >>54202120 to help answer what the difference between the two is?

>>54202327
>they didn't spoonfeed you so it's bad
>they didn't make the classes fit gay-ass video game roles like tank and DPS so it's bad

I mean, it is bad, you're just hilariously wrong about why.

>>54202327
There were no such things as class roles in any edition of D&D prior to or since 4e. Stop lying you stupid faggot.

>>54202272
Are you okay with playing Rock Paper Scissors to determine the outcome of combat? Or having your character's hit points based on his charisma?

>>54202339
Explain to me how your fighter is aware that he can only use his epic bladestorm 2[W]+Str maneuver once per day.

I'm in the middle of a 4e campaign, running a wilden druid with a summoning focus at level 9. Any suggestions? Currently in the pyramid of shadows module, but will be getting out soon.

>>54202354
>>54202120
"So roleplaying games are defined by associated mechanics — mechanics which are associated with the game world, and thus require you to make decisions as if you were your character (because your decisions are associated with your character’s decisions)."

"Storytelling games may be built around players having characters that they’re proponents of, but the mechanical focus of the game is not on the choices made as if they were those characters. Instead, the mechanical focus is on controlling the narrative."

http://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/6517/roleplaying-games/roleplaying-games-vs-storytelling-games

There's a distinction. You can do the whole "well how do I roleplay my character at all when he has higher Cha or lower Int or Wis than me and we have different experiences etc etc etc" but the point here is what the *mechanics* support.

>>54202350

Except they don't have cooldowns? Fuck, per scene is a narrative mechanic, not a gamey one.

>>54202363

Not clearly conveying things to players, and attempting to fill those roles but failing horribly is a part of why it's bad. Not the only aspect, but an important one.

>>54202364

Just because you were too stupid to notice them doesn't mean it wasn't there.

They exist in 5e, too.

>>54200947
Leaders want some (12-14) for healing and in some Bards and Ardents and Clerics and Shamans as a secondary rider; some Druids and Invokers and Wizards have it as a secondary for the Controllers; Strikers - some Warlocks, Elementalist, some Barbarians, somr Monks, and Strikers in general have a 12-13 on it.

+2/+3/higher early on is unlikely, but +1/+2 at Heroic/Paragon is very possible and has a direct impact.

>>54202379

In the right system, sure.

>>54202396

He isn't, and that isn't a problem.

>>54202443

Are those definitions drawn from or used in anything? Because FATE calls itself a roleplaying game, and outside of D&D most systems don't seem to have a problem combining elements of both. Does Mutants and Masterminds having hero points stop it being a roleplaying game, under your bizarre and arbitrary definition?

>>54202364
Not him, but there were. Rogue was for picking locks and sneaking, and fighter/barbarian being the "tank" has been around for a while. That said 4e solidified them, which may or may not have been a good idea.

>>54202410
What are your dailies and are you opening your encounters with a daily and do you have Charm Beast?

>>54202512
>He isn't

Then how does he know how to use it? How does he know that he won't be able to do it until the next day? How does he know he *can't* use it and thus make different decisions in combat?

>>54202506
And what system would that be? Some joke RPG like Everyone is John?

>>54202563

You're asking stupid questions that don't matter and aren't relevant.

It's a narrative abstraction. And I am okay with that.

You might not be, but it doesn't make the mechanic bad. It just means it doesn't fit your preferences and playstyle.

>>54202542
It was never expressely stated. You could build a fighter to be a "tank" but he didn't have to be one.

"tank", "healer" and "dps" are all terms from VIDEO GAMES which 4e was based on whether you want to admit it or not.

>>54202579

I could see RPS combat working in something suitably rules light that didn't care for crunch.

As for Charisma for hit points, there's already a justification for it in D&D, given the abstract nature of HP. Force of personality letting you keep fighting despite pain or injuries is thematically appropriate. I'd go to Wis before Cha, admittedly, but I can still see a case being made for both.

>>54202477
Show me a fucking wargame or boardgame with powers and cooldwns like 4e. I'm still waiting.

>>54202499
They don't you stupid cuck. What role is a wizard in 5e? What role is a monk?

Exactly. Now shut the fuck up.

>>54202588

They're terms videogames took from RPG's. They were already here.

>>54202443

And what if games have both aspects?

>>54202608
XCOM

>>54202562
Giant toad, guard drake, and crocodile. I tried to take charm beast but I was told that's way too good, so I had to pick something else, but that level sucks without it. I don't open with a daily every time, but at least within 2 or 3 rounds when i can place it in a good spot. Otherwise on my own im trying to be useful with a pole arm build. Had my spear made custom to fit a summoners staff for the pole.

>>54202614
No they weren't you fucking retard.

DPS means damage per second. That only makes sense in a fucking video game.

Nobody used those terms for tabletop gaming until MMOs came out you fucking revisionist.

>>54202608

Anything with a once per scene or once per game power. Which is most of them. Do you just not know very much about games that aren't D&D?

Also I'm not super familiar with 5e D&D, but if Wizards still do area damage and inflict debuff effects, they're still controllers, while if Monks do damage and inflict conditions they're a Striker sub controller.

Roles weren't prescriptive. They're descriptions of what already exists.

>>54202579

Everyone is John, Maid or something where combat is extremely low-impact. Like if someone wanted to make a Touhou game where the only real effect of losing combat is 'The other guy gets to act smug about it'

The less impact an aspect of a game has, the simpler the rules you can get away with for it.

>>54202642

No, they talked about damage per round instead, although in more abstract terms. But why are you getting picky about specific terminology 4e doesn't actually use anyway? I thought we were talking about the idea of class roles, which have always been a thing in tabletops.

>>54202631
>xcom
Isn't that a video game?

We all know 4e didn't draw inspiration from XCOM. It drew inspiration from world of fucking warcraft.

>>54202663
Which was fundamentally designed to be playable as a board game first and has a board game.

>>54202663

There are no recognisable similarities between WoW and 4e.

Unless you count consistent formatting and mechanical transparency. But that isn't 'vidya-like', that's just good modern game design, and is equally existent in board and wargames.

>>54202631

X-Com is round-based cooldown for most of it's stuff (Though there is a few mission-based cooldowns. Generally in the form of special gear rather than abilities)

As an aside: The encounter/daily dynamic works wonderfully as an in-universe thing for Artificers. 'This is simple enough you can put another one together if given a few minutes' vs 'It will take a few hours of tinkering to get that golem ready for combat again'

>>54202633
Try taking an earlier power. Try to figure out a few ways to get some off-turn attacks in, or at least off-turn utility.

What type of Druid are you running? Race?

>>54202647
Show me a game with class roles and powers like 4e. Just one. Surely you can do that.

Where are all these games that 4e supposedly drew inspiration from. You can't even name one!

Wizards aren't controllers in any edition except 4e. Holy fuck stop lying! I can do way more as a wizard than be a CC cuck in 5e.

>striker sub controller

That doesn't mean anything.

Roles in 4e were restrictive and determined what your character could and couldn't do. Just like a video game.

>>54202659
Those terms were coined by MMOs.

4e just took those terms and gave different names so as not to make it as blatant but they were solidifying class roles like a fucking video game instead of giving player the freedom to create a wizard that can blow shit up or cleric that deals damage.

>>54202693
I took roar of the unbowned beast, but its been pretty lackluster so far, even if it is a slide 6 at this point. I'm a wilden guardian druid, with a fighter multiclass for battle awareness. I'm trying the pole arm momentum saveage rend cheese, but I have to wait til level 11 since my dex is one under the req.

>>54202679
>There are no recognisable similarities between WoW and 4e.
lol

>But that isn't 'vidya-like', that's just good modern game design
It's bad design. Video games aren't the same medium as ttrpgs retard.

If I wanted to play WoW I'd play fucking WoW not D&D.

>>54202733
>Wizards aren't controllers in any edition except 4e.

Wut.

They literally based the controller role on iconic Wizard stuff; throwing fireballs and stinking clouds and sleep and other debuffs.

I know you are trolling but wtf

>>54202760
A controller is a CC bot from an MMO.

They took that from WoW where mages were just there to polymorph shit half the time.

Wizards are supposed to extremely verstile. They're not just CC cucks like in 4e. Have you actually played a wizard in any other edition?

>>54202733

Well, D&D already had class roles, as much as you bitch about it. MMOs literally copied them from RPGs.

As for powers, specifically in terms of once per game or once per scene/encounter abilities, basically everything? I know Warhammer had them, lots of character based abilities in wargames have them, along with actual dungeon crawl board games like descent having once per dungeon run things. It's so common I'm increasingly sure you've only ever played D&D and have no frame of reference for thinking outside of it.

>>54202781

They took all of that from how Wizards worked in 3.5.

>>54202754

Then name some. With actual detail. Because surface level there seems to be, but in terms of actual function there really isn't.

Then again, that would actually require you to know anything about the game, which you obviously don't given that you're an idiot and/or a troll.

>>54202808
Wizards in 3.5 could literally fill any of the 4e roles. They were omnipotent. You have no clue what you're talking about.

>>54202802
No they fucking didn't. Nobody was just a healer or a damage dealer or a tank in D&D.

It's so obvious that you retards never actually played D&D outside of 4e.

>>54202822
I already have named plenty. Not my fault you lack reading comprehension. They've been pointed out time and time again in every single 4e thread but you just refuse to acknowledge them.

Being like a video game isn't necessarily a bad thing. Some people like that kind of game. You clearly do.

>>54202847

But their design and intentional playstyle was built around area damage and debuffs. Go look up the playtest stuff from the early days.

>>54202865

But it isn't like a videogame, which you'd know if you actually played it. The only resemblance is surface level, shallow and not actually true in practice.

Give me a single, concrete, exact example. Just one. I'm sure it'll be easy for you.

>>54202847

Clerics were so OP in 3.5 because they were designed as healbots. But nobody wanted to play a healbot, so they kept giving them extra features and cool stuff to incentivize people to the play them, which reached the point they were way, way stronger when not actually played as intended.

All the stuff you like about 3.5, and bemoan in 4e, came from the same place. 3.5 failed at it, while 4e succeeded.

>Wizards are supposed to extremely verstile.

They are though. Wizards are basically the most versatile class in 4e. The only thing they are sorta lacking at is defense, but the mass control effects they have make them indirectly pretty good at defending allies.

They also have the spellbook feature and gain ritual casting for free, and have some of the most powerful and versatile class options (both through power selection and PPs/EDs).

>Nobody was just a healer or a damage dealer or a tank in D&D.

Great news!

Neither they are in 4e. Dedicated healer as a thing doesn't exist outside of a single (kinda meh) cleric build. Damage dealers aside from Ranger have all sorts of secondary effects, and many of the best damage dealers are actually a different role altogether who just also happen to use damage to supplement their main role. A good example would be the fighter who, aside from being a "tank" is also one of the best damage dealers in the game, thanks to his powerful mark punishment.

>>54202887
It's exactly like a video game.

Read my previous posts where I've listed the similarities as have others. Not going to repeat myself ad nauseam for some lazy mongoloid.

>>54202867
The early days of what? 3.5 or D&D? Show me where they intended for wizards to be CC cucks.

>>54202920

Link the posts, then? I haven't seen a single good example this whole thread.

>>54202913
>The only thing they are sorta lacking at is defense

Even there, they have powers like Shield that are so good other classes would kill for them.

>Damage dealers aside from Ranger have all sorts of secondary effects

Now now, the Ranger has a secondary role. It's just also Striker.

>>54202781

>Wizards are supposed to extremely verstile. They're not just CC cucks like in 4e. Have you actually played a wizard in any other edition?

Which things can a wizard focus on in other editions they can't in 4e? They are even one of the best non-combat classes due to int-focus + automatic arcana trained + ritual caster.

>>54202847
>Wizards in 3.5 could literally fill any of the 4e roles.

How would a 3.5 Wizard fill the Defender or Leader roles? I don't honestly recall them having much in those areas.

>>54202899
Who the fuck wants to play a healbot at the table? This is exatly why giving MMO roles to D&D characters is fucking retarded.

3.5 fucked up a lot of things, and I'll admit that 4e did some things right but holy fuck did they screw up with giving everyone spells (powers) and class roles.

>>54202970

Powers aren't spells, and 'healbot' isn't a class role. That's a mistake 3.5 made, not 4e.

Actually do some reading on the system before you start complaining about it, you're just making yourself look stupid.

>>54202970

>Who the fuck wants to play a healbot at the table? This is exatly why giving MMO roles to D&D characters is fucking retarded.

That's why the role is Leader, not Healer. How well a given Leader heals is highly variable. Some, like Warlords, are not great at it but are good at supporting in other ways. Clerics and some Shamans on the other hand are really good at it.

Leader is a general 'Support' role rather than being an MMO healer.

>>54202981

Being fair, some spells are powers, but some spells are also rituals. But yeah, not all powers are spells.

>>54202961
Not that guy but

>Defender

Probably summoning and defensive/movement control spells.

>Leader

I remember there being a wizard heal that was actually pretty good (infernal healing? something like that) but they also had spells like Haste.

Really, though, class roles just don't "work" in 3.5 so there's really no point in comparing them.

>>54202981
>>54202996
In 4e fighters are just wizards that specialise in sword magic.

http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/arch/dnd

Pretty sure the 3.x design stuff is somewhere in here, although fuck going through that awful interface to find it

>>54203007
>Probably summoning and defensive/movement control spells.

That's more the Controller role. 4e's wizard gets rather a lot of summoning options.

>I remember there being a wizard heal that was actually pretty good (infernal healing? something like that)

That's a Pathfinder spell and...well, it's good healing by Pathfinder standards. Which mostly means 'A lot of HP for the spell slot, time doesn't matter as no one heals during combat'. 10 HP over 10 turns for a 1st level spell makes it more efficient than Cure Light Wounds.

>Really, though, class roles just don't "work" in 3.5 so there's really no point in comparing them.

I'd personally call that a failure of rules more than intention. Defence was just so pathetic compared to offence and resistance to combat manuvers rose so much faster than ability to improve them that they ended up rather ineffectual at having heavy armour classes be able to protect the backline classes.

>>54202268

It isn't. When I was playing 4E, I had a really great group that came to it and understood it from their WoW background. I had players who would not have been involved in RPGs otherwise, and they were often the best at contributing to roleplaying and being useful in combat at once.

>>54203045

But they're not, though.

Literally the only similarity is formatting and structure, and even then how they function within that structure is completely different.

This isn't like 3.5, where the only differences were structural and basically everything worked in a few very similar ways. 4e uses a common structure to let things actually function in very different ways.

>>54203064
I totally agree with you, I just think it's worth considering the other side's points, however weird they look.

I do think the trolls are responding to themselves at this point; whenever the thread is on page 1, the same nonsense, in the same post style, starts up.
Anyway, CONTENT!
Has people here had success porting forward older settings to 4e? I recently, due to blind luck and chance, managed to purchase both the Al Qadim and Birthright campaign setting boxes of AD&D, and reading them has inspired me to throw my players into the mix. It has made me wonder if anyone ever crunched out the math to make 2e -> 4e conversions in good faith, or if other DMs have made this jump with success.

>>54203342

The mechanical gulf is so fast that I feel you'd be better off with interpretation than adaptation. Take the elements of those old setting sand figure out the best ways to represent them in the modern one, rather than trying to convert from exact numbers.

So... quick question; 4e was really, really big on avoiding the whole "grid-filling" thing. Races were created to actually be interesting, not just "we got X, so we need Y" - that's why Modrons were redone as embodiments of cosmic order created to fight Entropy, and why Dao and Marid were delegated to the pages of Dungeon.

So... anyone have any ideas how 4e might have reworked Guardinals? You know, the beastman Neutral Good angels from 2nd and 3rd edition?

>>54203342
I've never had a playgroup, unfortunately, and with 4e as the Black Sheep of D&D, you're not likely to find such things on DM's Guild. But, there's definitely ground to build from.

Like >>54203363 says, though, you're better reinterpreting than going to an exorbitant amount of work to convert something. The Sha'ir, for example, works just fine and dandy as a new Genie Pact for the Warlock. Birthright's kingly stuff works best as a Theme, at best, or by adapting the "non-item magical boons" from Dark Sun for the Inheritance system.

>>54203462
Sha'ir exists as a version of wizard already (although genie pact warlock does sound cool... then again, genies are elementals and elemental pact is a thing IIRC).

>>54203462
>the beastman Neutral Good angels from 2nd and 3rd edition?
Nonexistent. Angels are a very particular thing in 4e, and that is outside of it. A particular good god could have them resemble them, but they will not be them.
>Birthright's kingly stuff works best as a Theme, at best, or by adapting the "non-item magical boons" from Dark Sun for the Inheritance system.
I mean porting over the entire setting, not mechanics from it. I want to run 4e in the Birthright setting that has it's own gods, it's own history for the different races, it's own unique creatures.

>>54203462

>So... anyone have any ideas how 4e might have reworked Guardinals? You know, the beastman Neutral Good angels from 2nd and 3rd edition?

They never really turned up in 4e but they could be inserted.

I'd reinterpret them as tied to the Feywild. The servants of Gorellik, now without a master after Yeenoghu killed him and stole the worship of the Gnolls. Where Yeenoghu is the god of slaughter and butchery, they represent more noble aspects of hunting. Providing for those who cannot and the challenge of pitting yourself against another and winning.

They consider it a great honor to be able to hunt the dire threats of the heavens and hells...except for the spawn of Yeenoghu. They show his creations no mercy and no fairness, as they have proven themselves unfit to be hunters.

While they are mostly good-aligned, that doesn't mean you can always be safe around them. After all, it's a grand honor and challenge to be hunted by them for the better part of a week, denied rest and harried all the way. If you manage to evade them or defeat them, you've proven yourself a hunter rather than prey.

>>54203462
I'd say that to do the Guardinals you ought to take clues from the Deva and the Hengeyokai, and do a rewrite from "always Neutral Good beastman angels" to "humans who have fused with aloof angels and have become angelic and beastlike"

>>54203529
I'm asking if /4eg/ can think of any way to make them a fit for the setting, as opposed to just being "Angels of a Proper Alignment".

As for porting over the Birthright setting lore? Easy. Just use the lore presented in the pre-4e books and use 4e mechanics. Homebrew new monsters, races, etc as required.

>>54203623
Only problem with that is that some of the guardinals were prey-species. Still... the noble prey beast could work... maybe.

>>54203700
Bit too... lackluster. I could see them maybe as servitors of Primal Spirits, maybe?

>>54203814
>Only problem with that is that some of the guardinals were prey-species. Still... the noble prey beast could work... maybe.

Well, a hunt needs prey. It's a contest between the two.

My thoughts was more of a focus on the concept of hunting more than the fact you butcher a creature at the end of it.

>>54203814
>>54203948

There's plenty of mythological precedent for supernaturally adept prey. The Questing Beast or the Ceryneian Hind spring to mind.

I honestly find the idea that they're hunters or hunted men and women who devoted themselves to the Primal Spirits so hard the Primal Spirits started imbuing them with characteristics of the animals very interesting. Beyond the part of physical stuff, you can have personality play a part. Prideful hunters become lion-like while tactically mindful ones might take up wolf-like characteristics.

>>54203994
I like the idea of instead of going with the "if you survive the hunt, you have proven yourself!" they sometimes test people with "catch me if you can!".

It's much more benevolent and still a hunt.

>>54204410

Yeah. I sort of like the idea of them testing people by forcing them into a role they are not used to, making them think of their feet.

So the skilled warrior is hunted, while the scholar is the hunter.

You could likely run it very well as a skill challenge.

>>54204624
Could be also a good punishment/attempt at redemption for those who enjoy killing with no respect for their prey, and for those who consider themselves above the hunt.

>>54202563
4e is a NARRATIVE game system. HP is an abstraction of wounds, stamina and willpower. AC is an abstraction of armor, dodging. Heck, even the attack roll is an abstraction of a series of small attempts of hitting.
The Martial EXPLOITS are a NARRATIVE mechanic that grants the Martial PLAYER a kind of agency only possible before by spellcasters (and that's when you trigger).

The EXPLOIT is using an opportunity for a maneuver. Encounter ones only happen once per battle, Dailies occur once per day. The PLAYER chooses when this opportunity arises, but in-character the Fighter only sees the enemy open his defenses for so.

It is wonderful because it lets the player conducts the narrative alongside the DM. OOC the players chooses when, in battle, the enemy will be open for the character to strike.

If you can't comprehend it and thinks it work like Fireball, that's OK: Not everyone can understand that. But calling it absolute bad design is being moronic.
I know you are a troll (>>54198346), but your trolling allows whoever is reading the thread to understand the answers to questions some might have but never asked.

>>54204894
>4e is narrative
You keep using that word. I don't think it means what you think it means.

File: initgirl.png (329KB, 467x318px) Image search: [Google]

329KB, 467x318px

>>54202616
Roleplaying is exclusive. A game with both narrative and non-narrative (i.e. meta/nonmetagame) mechanics is a storytelling game. Most of 4e's mechanics (AC, hit points, etc.) are associated, but "muh once per day powahs even though there's no in world reason for it but by some coincidence he only swings his sword like that once per day" is dissociated.

>>54205030

Nobody cares. It's an arbitrary definition the Alexandrian made up and nobody in the industry pays attention to. FATE sells itself as a roleplaying game, because it's a roleplaying game, and so is 4e.

>>54205006

Just because you don't understand it doesn't mean he's using it wrong.

>>54202913
Being the most [insert adjective here] class in 4e is like being the prettiest ant in the colony. All 4e classes work exactly the same mechanically, with the only real difference being flavor.

>>54205051

Nope. 4e classes all share the same general power structure. How they interact with that structure, and how they function in play, is more distinct and different than any other edition of D&D.

>>54205046
You've never played an actual narrative game, have you? Because they're very different from D&D in general and 4e most of all. 4e doesn't put any focus on plot or character; it's all about which hotkey you're going to press on your action bar to make your toon kill those mobs.

>>54205088

Given that I'm currently making a character for my next Masks game, go fuck yourself.

Just because you shit up the game with your preconceptions and stupid ideas doesn't mean the rest of us have the same deficiency. 4e's design is an excellent blend of narrativist and gamist ideas, and it works very well, both for telling heroic fantasy stories and for providing compelling and challenging gameplay.

>>54204894
>The Martial EXPLOITS are a NARRATIVE mechanic that grants the Martial PLAYER a kind of agency only possible before by spellcasters (and that's when you trigger).

LOL you think this is about martials v.s. casters? You are such a stupid fuck. This has NOTHING to do with martials getting "good things." Martials SHOULD get good things. The issue is that the system for doing so is retardedly limited, and whereas with wizards, magic is considered an actual substance that needs to "recharge" for the wizard to cast more spells, for fighters there is nothing. All the "he's tired," "he's lucky," etc explanations were BTFO in this post above: >>54194363

>but in-character the Fighter only sees the enemy open his defenses for so.
And why can this happen only once per day? Explain how that makes sense. And don't use the "lol well the world is literally made of majik so anything can happen XD XD" excuse, because that's fucking bullshit. By that logic people in Lord of the Rings should be able to spawn fish out of their asses just because the world has supernatural elements. Fuck off with that """argument""".

>>54205030

So the 40k RPGs are storytelling, as is WHFB?

>>54205073
True. For example, one class might have attacks that deal damage and apply one of a handful of templated debuffs, but another class might have the exact same number of attacks that apply exactly the same templated debuffs.

>>54205088

Not that poster, but actual narrative games are generally garbage, because they fail to provide enough structure to qualify as a 'game'. At that point, you might as well sit around the table and just improv.

>>54205046
>It's an arbitrary definition
No, it has clearly-set guidelines, despite your best attempts to muddy them. 4e's daily exploits have NO connection to anything in the game world. Your "explanations" for them are post-hoc bullshit, and have gaping logical holes. That is why people hate them. That is why 4e is not a roleplaying game, it's a storytelling game.

>>54204881

Yeah, a variable level of 'niceness' to the hunt is likely part of it.

Chasing the white rabbit to help a lost child that stumbled through a faerie ring get back home is different from hunting down a serial killer and making him the prey for once.

>>54205116

Because you're refusing to accept the system on its own terms. Of course it won't make sense if you outright dismiss the logic it was designed with, and that's been consistently what you're doing.

>>54205121

Actually play the system. Or just read it, beyond the very surface level. Then you won't look like such an idiot.

>>54205109
It's 100% gamism taken to its logical extreme. You say it's narrative because you have this idea that calling something narrative is praising it, and you want your favorite bad game to be praised.

>>54205117
Yes, because you take narrative control outside of what is accomplishable by your character. That is the definition in the Alexandrian article. Read it.

>>54205121
Can you people stop jumping for this?
I know school just let out, but please, we had a few hours of minimal bullshit.

>>54205130

'Storytelling game' is a meaningless term only invented so butthurt idiots like you could claim a thing they don't like isn't a real roleplaying game. It provides no value and has no reason to exist beyond that. So no, fuck you, they're roleplaying games. We have ways of discussing and categorising roleplaying games that are much more informative and descriptive than your bizarre obsession with sectioning off everything you don't like as its own discrete category. Especially since your definition, bizarrely, excludes the vast majority of RPGs in existence.

>>54205151

I can't think of many games that have zero aspects outside your own character.

I mean, even 3.5 had Hero points introduced in Ebberon so it can't be a roleplaying game any more.

>>54205150

...Are you even pretending to have a point anymore?

>>54205133
>Because you're refusing to accept the system on its own terms.
Stop using this excuse. I could say "you're refusing to accept FATAL on it's own terms, you just don't LIKE a game about rape and incest and racist magic items"

It's not an argument. It's a retreat to your impenetrable safe space of subjectivity. It's pathetic.

>>54205088
>4e doesn't put any focus on plot or character; it's all about which hotkey you're going to press on your action bar to make your toon kill those mobs.

This. There's honestly nothing creative or interesting to do in 4e. All the enemies have so much hp it's like a DOTA 2 match where you all spam your ults or whatever it's called against the big boss to get to the next level. 4e takes the 15 minute adventuring day to a new level, but at least the whole party gets to participate

>>54205181

Straight up lying just reveals your ignorance, you know. Especially in a thread of people who know you're lying, because we've actually read and played the game.

>>54205172
>I mean, even 3.5 had Hero points introduced in Ebberon so it can't be a roleplaying game any more.
Simple: just don't play Eberron. 3.5 didn't have them in core, thus it's an RPG. 4e is not.

>>54205109

What part of Masks is about Storygaming? Every single Move you can make is something your character is doing.

>>54205196

Okay.

Now go away and take your stupid, arbitrary and pointless definition with you.

>>54205193
How am I lying? Also stop reddit-spacing it's incredibly fucking obnoxious.

>>54205204
>I lost the argument, so you should go away for being right.

>>54205207
Anon, you shoot yourself in the foot the moment you have to rely on website boogeymen.

>>54205196

So if you play Ebberon it stops being an RPG?

Where is the line between 'stuff your character is doing' and 'stuff the player is doing?' Like 4e's action points you spend for extra actions are bursts of heroism and extra reserves of strength. Or a superhero in a GURPS game who's power is being superhumanly lucky.

>>54205207

Nah, I think I'm gonna keep posting with easy to read formatting, like I've been doing fucking forever on this site.

As for straight up lies-

>This. There's honestly nothing creative or interesting to do in 4e. All the enemies have so much hp it's like a DOTA 2 match where you all spam your ults or whatever it's called against the big boss to get to the next level. 4e takes the 15 minute adventuring day to a new level, but at least the whole party gets to participate

This is a falsehood. This isn't you expressiong not liking the system. This is you straight up misunderstanding, misrepresenting or imagining things that literally do not exist, and presenting it as fact. Fuck, you even screw up your own dumb video game references to the point they don't make sense.

>>54205207

How do you Redditspace with only a single line?

>>54205225

There's really nothing else to gain here. You keep asserting your definition without ever providing any argument or evidence for why it has any value, and it's clear nobody here agrees with you. So, y'know. Fuck off.

>>54205298
>>54205298
>>54205298
>>54205298

>>54205298
>>54205308

But they make funny noises when you poke them

>>54205319
If you aren't reporting them, then you are the problem.

>>54205272

I really don't get the point of the whole Storygaming vs Role Playing Games distinction. I mean, what's the point of the separation? Are RPGs incapable of having a story or Storygames incapable of having roleplaying?

>>54205346

See

>>54205166

>>54205203

Addendum to this: I am actually looking over Masks and finding it increasingly hard to find anything about it that would make it a Storygame rather than an RPG. The stats are all express parts of your character (Their self-image) and all the moves are things your character does. Even the Influence system is about the in-universe emotional links your character has.

>>54205346
When rpgs like VtM, Shadowrun, and L5R started showing up in the 90's, Gygax started getting pissy that they aren't real roleplaying games and that people who play them are dirty wannabe thespians. It was him being butthurt that not only did he lose DnD, but that different types of games started showing up in the market place.

I told you that to highlight the idiocy of the idea that FATE, DnD 4e, Savage Worlds, and other games aren't roleplaying games because arbitrary reasons by butthurt gamers mad that rpgs could have different ideas on how to work.

>>54202221
>Dude I agree it's jank. That's the entire point.
Insisting on MUH LOGIC for a specific form of jank isn't showing that the base idea is bad, it's just throwing a fit. Imagine if I insisted that since HP represents the ability to get out of the way, it "just makes sense" to add your Dex score to it. That's not an argument that HP is bullshit and doesn't work, it's an argument that I don't like it and would rather burn it than try to make it work.

>Also, magic is magic, it's its own explanation. If you explain why fighters are supernatural and thus should only be getting their cool disarm once per day, then I'll be more satisfied.
No it's not. It's a handwave. Why are you giving magic a complete pass because "it's magic," but then throwing a huff when someone does something implying because "it's heroic" or "he's awesome?"

>That's a simple acid test that 4e maneuvers fail, as do a lot of the "daily powers" in 3.5 and 5e.
But only for martials, because everyone else can just shrug and scream MAGIC while waving jazz hands?

More to the point, the mechanics do relate directly to something in the game: The characters' abilities and limitations. You ever do something that tires you out physically in a specific way, for instance?

>"Fun" in a nonce word when discussing game design. Don't use it because it makes a "gigantic clown" of you, too.
I wasn't talking about game design, I was talking about game play. As with HP, you can try to figure out how it works best and makes the most sense for you, or you can rustle yourself going on about how it's complete bunk and doesn't make sense and people aren't just sacks of coins that vomit coins when someone hits you and then clerics can put coins back into you and this system isn't based on anything the characters are aware of.

The first is trying to have fun with something. The latter is putting a lot of effort into not having fun with something.

>>54202364
3rd is the only edition class roles weren't a thing, and that was only because the design team had brain damage

>>54205543
>>54205589
Both of you, knock it off.
There is no reason to continue an argument that already died, outside being the troll yourselves trying to get the shitball back on track.

Quick question anons. What's your favorite class to play as in 4e. I really love the Avenger personally.

>>54205708

Warlord. First class I played, but I still adore it. It's so much fun to lead from the front, throwing out bonus attacks and healing all while smacking dudes about. Bravura is especially fun, but I'm a sucker for risk vs reward mechanics in games, and the idea of going big damn hero, risking your neck to empower your allies is just awesome for me.

I'm a slut for Xcom style combat and heard good things about 4e in regards to that, is it true?

>>54205850

To an extent. It's grid based tactical combat, but focusing on smaller numbers of people and with more depth and choice to the abilities on offer.

Still, if you enjoy tactical combat in RPG's 4e is basically the best.

So, random question because this's been bugging me all morning... say you dropped a fully equipped party of five 30th level 4e PCs in Westeros (HBO version), with the house rules that 1: Westeros' native denizens are fitting a low-level Heroic Tier Martials Only setting, and 2: the Planars are house-ruled that they keep all of the Encounter & Daily Powers instead of being restricted to just their highest 4 of each.

How much could they screw around with the setting?

>>54205708
>What's your favorite class to play as in 4e
the 4e Fighter is probably not only my single favorite class in 4e, but my favorite class from any edition of D&D that I've played. You can tell a lot of work went into looking at the job the fighter was supposed to be doing and making sure the class has the exact right feel for it, and there are so many ways to build your fighter to still do that job but in different ways

honorary mention goes to the warlord, a class that seems custom-built to show off 4e's strengths

>>54205739
>>54207480
I'm still angry we'll probably never get another real Warlord class

>>54207315

They'd utterly shatter the setting. I mean that is bringing literal demigods to the party and people who can use rituals to summon castles overnight or raise mountains into the sky to act as floating fortresses.

>>54207315
>>54207816

They'd be god kings within the year, even if they didn't want to be at first. No heroic high fantasy adventurer is going to look at any of the fuckers in Westeros and think 'Yeah, I'll support this guy'.

Then again, at least the White Walkers wouldn't be a problem.

>>54207315

You get stuff like this at 30:

Magic's Master (30th level): Twice per day, you can perform any ritual you have mastered as a standard action. The ritual you perform cannot directly affect an enemy. For example, you could perform Raise Dead and revive an ally who could then rejoin the fight. However, you could not perform Imprisonment, which directly affects an enemy.

So 2x a day one of the characters could just will a castle into existence or raise the entire battlefield 2 miles into the air or 'Just' bring a guy back from the dead in six seconds flat.

>>54207816
>>54207866
>>54207987

So, who do you think they'd go after first?

The White Walkers - although, admittedly, something like summoning a Wildfire Dragon or two and setting them loose beyond the Wall would probably take care of them?

Cersei the Mad Queen?

Or Daenarys and her army of eunuch slave-soldiers and not!Mongols?

>>54207998

Stopping the White Walkers would almost certainly be the first thing, they're a threat to literally everyone. The fame and good favour they won from that victory would likely let them unseat anyone who could stand against them through popular revolt, let alone bringing their personal power to bear.

Random question, 4rries: what's your favorite Epic Destiny? I thought these were one of the coolest design parts of 4e, and really helped give you a goal to shape your character towards.

I gotta say, I really like the more "metaphysical" Epic Destinies. Becoming an Emergent Primordial or a Demigod, joining the ranks of the Archfey with Feyliege or the Archdevils with Prince of Hell, becoming a Planeshaper or a Demiurge... gods, what's not to love about things like that?

http://dnd4.wikia.com/wiki/Epic_destiny

>>54208198

http://funin.space/compendium/epicdestiny/Bahamuts-Vessel.html

This is my favourite I've seen so far, both interestingly thematic and very cool power wise.

Sadly, I think a lot of ED's are really lacklustre. They really fucked up with not making the stat gains from EDs universal and having some be so much more potent than others, strongly disincentivizing picking some of the more interesting or fluffy ones. And even then, some classes or setting aspects just lack for interesting or fluffy ED's that fit them. It's a damn shame.

Query: any anons got any opinions, tips or advice on converting the races from WoTC's recent Plane Shift: Amonkhet to 4e PC options?

I figure the Sheep-Headed Minotaurs are just a cosmetic reskin of the Minotaur from the PHB3, but I could really use advice on the Nagas, the Khenra or the Aven - particularly the Nagas.

I'm also interested in what a 4e Kor from Zendikar might look like.

>>54205850
Depends on how specific you want to get. XCOM is almost entirely ranged-from-in-cover shootouts, while 4e is a fairly melee-heavy brawl. They're both turn-based squad games that reward/involve positioning, target priority, special ability/resource usage, etc, but it really depends on what parts of XCOM you're looking for.

As another point of note, XCOM is sort of known for lethality (far less in nucom, but still), while 4e starts off fairly comfy and then suffers from HP bloat, so there's that.

>>54179840
I had a similar idea that I never got to test.

Basically the "powers known" caps out at 4 encounter, 4 daily, 10 utility and 2 at-will.

Instead of that being "powers known", it would be the number of "uses" per short/long rest.

So at level 3 when you pick up your second encounter powers, you "know" two powers and can "use" two powers in any combination. Eventually you cap out at 4 encounter power uses per short rest, but you'll know more powers.

Same for daily powers, though obviously those would reset after a long rest, not a short rest.

Utility powers would be similar, but players would pick an encounter (or at-will) AND a daily each time they would get to normally pick one. We found that, unless the daily was SUPER OP, people were almost always picking encounter powers.

Now, the thing to keep in mind is that this system was designed for a super low magic world. I was basically not using magic items almost at all. So the extra utility powers took the place of what would normally be powers on magic items.

Never got a chance to try it out though.

>>54208785

I feel like you lose out on part of what I enjoy about the gameplay of 4e there.

For non-psionics, each power represents a discrete and unique opportunity cost- It's something you can do once and only once, so you better make it count. It encourages you to creatively think about the best way to use all your options and makes every part of your arsenal worthwhile.

If you can just repeat powers, however, I think you'd find people just repeatedly using the same few over and over, reducing the variety in combat significantly.

>>54208785
I think, regarding utility, dailies are mostly never picked. Even if "inferior", encounter and at-wills have the ability of being used more often, thus is more fun.

About segregating uses from powers, the hard cap of 4/4/10/2 comes to diminish option paralysis. And even then it happens.
I would go Power and Modulator. So, after X encounter powers, player start choosing modulators: They're additions to the base encounter power. So, each character still have 4 encounter, but each are "side"graded on top of being scaled as at-wills already are.

And, off course, splitting utility into utility (non-combat) and support (combat).

>>54208566
4e is plenty lethal. Not as much as xcom, but a pc is definitely in danger of dying from even at-level fights.

>>54174656
>that it's not a dead game.
I mean as dead as 2e.
I do hope we get some new LORE material in 5e at least. I liked the Points of light setting.

>>54208850
"One trick reuse" was a definite possibility. Storm of Blades and other "attack x times" powers were high on my watchlist. As for "choices", I was shifting that from "wish listing magic items" to "picking personal powers". I know the game had the fake me out "these aren't magic items but they take a magic item slot" thing going, but that felt silly.

I was also planning to build the encounters using more minions than normal. My go-to example is the end of Fellowship of the Rings. You have a bunch of Uruk-Hai getting cut down in one hit and then Lurtz who was a serious threat. Rather than using a bunch of normal monsters and an elite, use an elite and a bunch of chump minions. I realize my elites could get stun/daze locked by encounter powers, but elites get bonuses to saves and such. I dunno, it was definitely going to need refinement, but I thought it was a good way to do low magic without just using "not magic" magic items.

>>54208889
Yeah, that was pretty much what we found. Daily powers, no matter how good, never get taken because Encounters are able to be used so much more often.

The 4/4/10/2 isn't really the hard cap though, not when you factor in Magic Item slots all over the place, which can contain at-will, encounter or daily powers. Removing those removes some of the option bloat I think, even with a few more powers of their own.

>>54208198
Probably the Master of Moments Psionic path.

>Time manipulation
>Can cast a very useful subset of rituals for free
>Gets an extra minor action, can trade up two minors for an extra Move
>Gains a teleportation movespeed at level 30

Meshes very well with the Timebender paragon path. Took both on one guy and all the extra movement I was getting meant I was zooming around the battlefield all day.

>>54208198
I've always like the idea of the Hoardmaster myself

its "immortality" feature was if you died, one of your followers would take up your mantel, having copied you combat style, even has your "memories" just from having listened to everyone of you stories.
If you ever were returned to life, they would step down and let the true legend lead.

Bit of a dread pirate roberts angle on it.

>>54205708
Ardents are damn enjoyable bastards, and I love going full ham with them. From Fumbles the Psyker to Brian Blessed, you can really have some fun with them. Bards are a close second for general bardism and really fun stuff like War Chanter, Rhyme of the Blood Seeking Blade and Song of Discord.

>>54208198
Topaz Crusader is just such a strong, flavorful bag of goodies. The options it has are very fucking strong, like getting more power points, daze and stun immunity and +2 to a stat, and the flavor is incredible. It even has an appropriate theme song! https://youtube.com/watch?v=aNQvLECht08

>>54208198
Thief of Legend.

It's my go to for an example of how an epic level thief should be.

Hypothetical question; if one wanted to try and salvage 5e by grafting some more 4e-based rulestock into it, what do you think it'd need?

My default assumption would be to convert lots more of the Arcane spells so, for example, Bladesinger is no longer a shit Swordmage due to not having any swordmage spells, and to create Epic Destinies as 10-level "classes" to take levels in after hitting level 20.

>>54213030
i don't think 5e of all editions needs to be "salvaged" at this point

if you want to play 4e, then play 4e

>>54213030
Unfortunately, they're both pretty different systems from the ground up even if they're both D20-based. The last time someone tried to change 4e significantly, it was Mike Mearls and it resulted in Essentials which gave us some of the worst classes of the edition. It was so poorly received, they went and make Mike the head of 5e for some reason =\

>>54213030
>>54213066

You'd have to rebuild it from the ground up. I'd not mind seeing some sort of 4.5 that applies some of the streamlining of 5e to 4e, but as is, if you used 5e as a base, you'd have to rewrite all the classes basically, at the very least.

>>54213088
Office politics. Mearls is a fucking snake.

>>54213125
Essentials is in some ways a sort of 4.5, and by trying to have a foot on both sides of the fence it kinda spat in everyones face. Mearls seemed to hate 4e, I can understand that he's more of a DM and a story oriented kinda guy. He did some fun adventures for 4th, but when his policy with rules is "you don't need rules because I'll make things up at the table anyway", that for me is a sign you should never be put in charge of mechanics.

Now we're stuck with his vision of D&D, and it's a lot of broken promises and rehashed adventures and he never once considered what if other people enjoyed 4e before he started scrapping it =\

>>54213066
>>54213088
>>54213125
>>54213156
Yeah, I didn't think it was possible. Wouldn't have asked, but 5e is the big name in town and most people still refuse to touch 4e because of all the lies 3aboos spouted when it came out.

Seriously, did nobody read the frigging Wizards Presents books? They really explained where all the changes were coming from and why!

Gods dammit, I *hated* the Essentials line. They screwed up everything. I was looking forward to the Necromancer as a full-fledged Shadow Controller - I even did my own take on it, but I lost it when WoTC's forums went down.

>>54213277
Why do you think that the reason people don't play 4e is because of lies?

Have you ever considered that maybe people just don't like the system?

>>54213156>>54213277

>Essentials is in some ways a sort of 4.5, and by trying to have a foot on both sides of the fence it kinda spat in everyones face.

Just because it was done badly once doesn't mean it can't be done right; the problem with Essentials was the class design that was trying to simplify things when the complexity came from the base system. The problem with 5e is likewise the class design, but the base system is streamlined in a way that mostly adds rather than detracts.

Basically, combine the good class design of 4e with the simple core system of 5e (with some tweaks) and you got a winner.

>>54213360
>>54213277
There are some perfectly valid criticisms of 4e, and a lot of other games on the market that I enjoy and can fully understand that some people just don't like 4e.

That said, every one of my group that loves 4e hated it at release without trying it. I had slog through a solid year of running Pathfinder before I could convince them to even let me demo the game for them, mostly so I could actually try it. I wasn't even a big fan at release, because it was so different.

Everyone I know personally that loves the game, hated it because they were told it was bad before they tried it. Everyone I know personally who still hates it, hasn't tried it and continues to spout '4e is just WoW'.

Speaking of Shadow classes, I've always wondered what a Shadow Leader would be like. You'd have to create a lot of fluff, but that isn't really something to worry about.

>>54213392
How does 4e have good class design? Every class has exactly the same number of powers with the same cooldowns. It's homogenised garbage.

>>54213402
People who claim 4e is like WOW have not played either. I've played both, I don't like either, but for completely different reasons.

I'd like to take this opportunity to remind everyone in this thread of >>54205298

>>54213421
>MOM!! MOOOOOM!!! I POSTED IT AGAIN!!! MMOOOOOOOOOOOMMMMMMMM!!!

>>54213407
Well, personally, I figured the Shadow Leader, if they hadn't made that inane decision to make Shadow a "half" Power Source, would be the Illusionist.

I mean, think about it; I know the Illusion Wizard was a thing that Arcane Power brought back and it was a Controller, but can't you just see a true master of illusion using phantasms to debuff foes, boost your Reflex and AC, and improve your attack accuracy?

Likewise, the Transmuter could have been the Elemental Controller, focusing a lot on literally reshaping the battlefield and multi-stage or hybridized damage types. Gouts of fantasy napalm, making earthen spikes that then stick around as a defensive barricade, tell me that you can't see it working?

>>54213440
>he doesn't like 4e
>he must be trolling

Not my fault you have shit taste anon

>>54213448
If something is true people tend to repeat it.

>>54213407
>>54213453
I like the idea of the shadow leader being a caster and not so much illusions but using echoes and phantoms to buff and debuff. Imagine being able to summon a strikes shadow to lash out at their target whenever they strike, Or an echo of the defender appearing ghostly from ages past that appears like smoke to absorb blows before returning to the ether.

I personally really wanted a Death Knight styled class for the Shadow powers, complete with minion like the ranger pet.

>>54213440
I think taking taking a page off /gsg/ and putting "Reminder to report and ignore shitposting" as the very first post might help, /4eg/ seems to be an easy target.

>>54213486
Well, I think there was a pre-Essentials Assassin that was touted as a Shadow Striker in Dragon Magazine that ended up not panning out, but, personally, my knee-jerk assumptions for Shadow Classes would be:

Necromancer: Controller, focused on Conjuration and Summoning effects, big on Necrotic damage, with Ice, Poison, Acid, Thunder and Force dabbling as well.

Illusionist: Leader with some Controller elements, eats the Shadowcaster from 3.5's Tome of Magic and blends illusion spells with "nethermancy" - maybe as alternate class options.

Blackguard/Dark Knight: Defender with some Striker inclination, big on debuffs, fear effects, vampiric healing and ongoing damage. Minion-based class option, like the ranger.

>>54213524
And because I've had to defend this more times than I care to count...

Ice Damage Is Because: "The Cold/Chill of the Grave" has been a thing in fantasy since at least the days of Conan.

Poison Damage Is Because: It meshes well with the image of the necromancer bringing swift, unsavory, unclean death. Plus, the Diablo II necromancer used it, so why not?

Acid Damage Is Because: It's a more visceral manifestation of entropy, representing the necromancer's ability to corrode and rot and disintegrate with its deathly energies.

Thunder Damage Is Because: Ghosts screaming at you and making your heart stop. Or your head burst, whichever comes first.

Force Damage Is Because: It's the most "ethereal" of the damage types in 4e, so it meshes well with poltergeist activity and hurling ectoplasm.

>>54213524
I agree pretty much completely with all of those.

So with no OGL, there wasn't a lot of third party content for 4e. Now that it's not a current edition, how long until people start getting together to write fan books to keep the game alive and give it new life. There are whole movements to get 1e and 2e back into the spotlight, and 3e never really died with how similar Pathfinder is. Do we have to pull our collective fingers out of our asses and start on new 4e content to support our game?

>>54213675
4e is (probably intentionally) hard to produce fan content for that isn't on the level of a few powers, maybe some alternate class options for existing classes, or houserules, some extra systems for handling things not covered to a sufficient degree, skill challenge setups, etc.

>>54213724
Actually, I think that once you crack open the math of the system it might become the easiest to create balanced new content for. The guys in this thread could probably just grab cool monster art and compile a fan monster manual within a couple of days. Doing a full expansion, like a rewrite of Heroes of Shadow with full classes and gear and shit would be much, much harder, but not outside the realm of a few dedicated fags.

>>54213771
It's not the math, it's that classes are really hard to brew because you need like 60-90 powers at the very least to not end up with something like the seeker or the vampire. On top of that 2-3 PPs/EDs per class are also expected.

Brewing monsters, feats, magic items should be considerably easier though, as well as add-ons for existing classes.

>>54213819
It's a lot more work, but I don't think it's significantly harder work. Perhaps I'm just being romantic, thinking that the best first fan supplement would be a re-do of Heroes of Shadow but done well.

>>54213855
Oh yeah, definitely. I remember seeing an AtLA supplement, for example that was... well, it was okay. I'm an optimizer at heart, so I'm always most excited about the hybrid options.

>>54213890
I'd love to re-do the vampire in a follow-up project, and just go whole hog Savage Species and do vampire, werewolf, spectre, other monster template stuff as whole classes. I love hybrids and options too, I think I mostly just want more 4e and we're not gonna get it from Wizards so eventually I'll just have to start writing I guess.

>>54213902
I feel like for the effort involved it'd be better to make a new game from the ground up that fixes some of 4e's better known issues, like feat and power bloat (especially for classes like wizard, who are kinda fucked in the sense that they have way too many options), unfucks rituals, etc.

Of course it'd not have the inertia of the D&D name behind it... but then again, 4e's inertia is basically negative thanks to all the trolling...

>>54213933
Yeah, that might be an idea. Another thing a 4e homebrew would need is just a lot of people in general. A "Heroes of Shadow" and a "Shadow Power" would need at least 6 guys working on it for nearly a year and being very dedicated to even come close to existing.

>>54214351
I think a long time ago someone posted in one of these threads what they'd like to see from a 4e retroclone and I sort of liked it.

Martial Powers are reliable so hey have more lasting options if they miss.

Arcane Powers are Variable, so they can be tailored to the battle at hand (changing what damage type is being used, or changing what defense it can target)

Divine Powers are Sustainable, meaning they have an immediate effect, and then a lasting effect.

I forget what he had mentioned for Primal, Psionic, or the others but I thought that at least he was on the right track to something interesting.

>>54214782
I'm tweaking the recovery mechanics for my homebrew.

Martials (STR based guys) have "flow" which is a pool of points that fills up as the fight goes that they can power their exploits with.

Shadow (DEX based guys) have tricks that can be reused if they spend an action to recover them using a skill.

Arcanists (INT) just use vancian, with the twist that it's not fixed as daily but is variable to fit to the type of campaign that is being played.

Primalists (WIS) can select a number of spirits to use from a larger pool of spirits, and then channel them to use their powers (essentially, you can have 4 spirits selected but only use 2 different ones in one combat at level 1).

Exemplars (combination of divine/warlock/sorcerer, uses CHA) just use normal recovery rules.

Each have training/access to different equipment on top of that that gives them variable speed/defenses/damage/range etc.

>>54214782
>>54215258

I'm always wary about pigeonholing by powersource. I can understand the idea, but I feel like you can establish a more interesting identity for each class by focusing on how they work as a variation of the power sources central theme, instead of flat applying the same mechanic to every class which shares a power source.

>>54215480
I agree in principle, but I'm actually adding this on the top of a Strike! style class/role selection as a third "pillar", so you just choose whichever fits your char.

>>54215480
Not arguing. Honestly I liked the idea for another system not for 4e. I love 4e as is personally. If they would just stick to the AEDU set up and do exactly what you are saying I'd be very happy.

>>54213855
There is this site, though I haven't looked at it in-depth so I don't know how quality the content is.

http://shadow4e.wikidot.com/

Could any of you lot start a /4eg/ thread? I'm currently travelling.

>>54216350
Is it ok if it's a 4e and 4e-like general?

>>54216398

I think that only makes sense, really. Encompass the range to allow more discussion.