>Fight breaks out at a barbarian moot >The party was DISARMED

>>54046299
Wayne, why do you keep posting these threads? We can tell it's you.

>>54046299
That is sad.

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Saged

>>54046338
What the Fuck Wayne.

>>54046299
assuming level 5, no feats, 20 attack stat first round
>fighter action surges for 4 attacks at 6 damage each, 24 damage
>monk makes 2 attacks at 1d6 + 5 damage (17 ave) and a flurry of blows for 2 more attacks (17 damage) for a total of 34 damage
>wizard has no arcane focus presumably, and so cannot use material component, and casts scorching ray at 3rd level instead for 8d6 damage (28 damage)

so going by pure damage the monk comes out on top in a fight with nothing but the clothes on their back

>>54046299
>monk has to hand in his arms
>expect him to do shit

>>54046407
Bumped.
Saging won't change shit, because he will just make another of those threads. Keeping one alive for week or so will instead make it boring for him to bait.

>>54046509
Nice, you get a (you).

>>54046408
You trying to force this meme is even worse than OP, which I originally thought was as low as someone could go.

>>54046299
>you just don't come back from that

Sure you do. What you're describing only really happens in 3rd Edition. 4e and 5e monks are great.

>>54046697
Lets derail the thread into something interesting

>>54049380
I am honestly not a fan of 5E but that doesn't change how annoying these threads are

>>54049404
Okay. Umm...oh, here's a neat one.

What would a Mirror D&D universe look like?

Like, the goblins, orcs, and so on are the "good" and standard races, while elves (except drow, who are good), dwarves, gnomes, and so on are the "evil" monster races.

>>54046437
>20 stat on 5th level
Assuming too much
>4 attacks at 6 damage each
6 damage a fighter? 2d6+5 is 12, not 6. And this assuming he doesn't have two handed style that allows to reroll 1s and 2s turning 2d6 (7 on averaege) into 8.3 on average for a total of 13.3 per hit
>Wizard has no arcane focus
They start with it, and can even be a normal wooden staff, literally you can find that everywhere

The fuck am I reading?

>>54046437
Barbarian should deal 1+5+3= 9 per hit, with advantage on attacks, more HPs and reduces half the damage.

>>54049380
>4e and 5e monks are great.
No, 4e monks are great. 5e monks are just ok, they are a glorified stun gun, nothing else. And if you allow feats boom, suddenly the worse damage dealer among the martials.

>>54049404
That's not how it works. All you do is bump this thread and encourage OP to make more.

Just report and ignore. And go into actually good threads and bump those instead.

>>54049404
I'm a new player. I don't want to play anything but D&D 5e, Other D&D is old versions and I don't feel like going all nostalgia for things i never played, other RP games are just D&D with different rules and leaning whole new systems for different games is too nerdy (sorry) because DND is already girl repellant but since it's fun I make an exception.

>>54049513
I think there was something about orcs being so pissed of at everything because during the creation of the universe they were denied a place to live, extrapolating from that I guess in the mirror universe humans and elfs and stuff are still the dominant species but goblins and orcs have basically been exploited by the "good races"

This is literally the same pattern the other thread started in

>>54049525
>Assuming too much

Not really. All you need to have rolled is a 17 at character creation and then choose a race with a +1 bonus to Wisdom, like wood elf.

Remember that the standard method of ability score generation in 5e is 4d6 drop lowest.

In any event even if we only presume an 18 at level 5, the basic point doesn't change.

The fighter doesn't get to use two-handed style because the characters are expressly disarmed according to OP. They're dealing unarmed damage, which is 1 bludgeoning for everyone except the monk.

Some new math assuming 18:

>Fighter, action surge: 4 attacks at 5 damage each (1 + STR) is 20 damage
>Monk, attacks + flurry: 2 attacks at 1d6+4 damage is 14 damage total, flurry for two more attacks is a total of 28 damage.
>Wizard, no arcane focus: Scorching ray at 3rd level is 8d6 damage, which is an average of 24

So the monk still comes out on top.

>>54049667
Bait

>>54049601
That's really a problem. I still don't get it. The monk is not the best in defence at all, he's got 1d8 hd, and he's bad at attack too.
He can't do really good battlefield control, the spellcaster are better. The only thing he got is mobility and stunning strike.

>>54049601
The thing about that is that Stunning is one of the best conditions to impose in the game. More to the point, the Monk isn't really meant to be a front-line fighter. They're more akin to a rogue, only instead of dealing tons of damage, they focus on disabling their targets and removing their ability to fight entirely.

In particular their movement plus stunning ability plus good Wisdom save makes them prime anti-arcane casters.

>>54049718
17 and 18 aren't easy to achieve, you have 1.62037037037% to get an 18 with 4d6 drop lowest, 4.16666666667% to get a 17. Not easy.

A staff, not even a quarter staff can be a arcane focus, a ring (the stone on it), a pendant, etc, either you strip the wizard and force him to walk naked or else you can't be sure he doesn't have an arcane focus (he can even put a diamond in his ass and call it a day). Druids use herbs like mistletoe for example, you'll have to be a pretty damn metagamer GM to remove that shit.

And I assumed wrong, I though there was a barb, but it was a barb moot

>>54049513
I've actually ran a game similar to that. The world is rather primitive and low-tech and the major races are Goblins, Hobgoblins, and Ogres. Humanity died out thousands of years ago and so the ruins of their great cities dot the landscape. It turned out that not all humans died out, they instead fled the Earth to set up shop on the largest moon in the sky. The party actually found an ancient teleporter that they got working and teleported to the moon. They found the humans and discovered why they left.

Thousands of years ago the nations of goblinkind and humankind wages war ceaselessly until a powerful Hobgoblin sorcerer created a spell that would end the war forever. He lays a curse on all goblin-kind to make it so they spread a terrible sickness that the humans cannot defend against. Fearing extinction, the humans fled to the moon and destroyed any way for the goblins to reach them (or so they thought). Goblins everywhere rejoiced their victory over the humans, but did not yet know what they had lost. Without humans or the need to fight against humans, technological progress stagnated and the goblins became tribal and more barbaric.

When they saw the party of goblins suddenly appear inside their city, widespread chaos ensued, their time spent in solitude making them paranoid and jumpy. They all feared the sickness, but it was found that the current generations of goblinkind no longer carried the plague, and peace-talks commenced for the first time in a millennia. The campaign ended with humans and goblins making peace and some of the humans coming down from the moon to help with the rebuilding process.

>>54049767
I disagree.
A Paladin is better. He got good save in everything earlier, Aura of protection (6th lvl), he deal much more damage, and has more HP.
Spellcaster are low HP, even with a good con, and the Paladin can crush them with smite.
I would argue also that any spellcaster with counterspell and disabling spell is better against another spellcaster.

The ONLY thing the monk got is stunning strike. So he must use all his ki for that, and is very limited in his options. It's bad.

>>54049744
Wotc said they were going to rise their HD, damage and ki post Alpha...that completely vanished and nobody talked about it again. Now you have the problem that with feats monks are glorified stun guns that deal no damage and that are still brittle as fuck

>>54049767
If you try to be mobile, dodgy (aka survive because your AC and HPs are meh as fuck) and at the same time you'll realize you don't have many stun attempts left

The problem that stun is your only needed feature also adds another problem, that is that people get mad if you waste ki in another stuff, that nobody wants you unless you stun, and that doesn't make for a fun play

>>54049873
>that is that people get mad if you waste ki in another stuff
Are there really people who get mad if you don't play a properly minmaxed character?

>>54049767
>They're more akin to a rogue, only instead of dealing tons of damage, they focus on disabling their targets and removing their ability to fight entirely.

Well, later in the game. They need to wait a while for the one good feature they get.

>>54049873
Well, now usually monk in my game take tough or raise con a bit in character creation, and I allow homebrew feats to have power attack with monk weapons. They closed the gap a bit now, it's better.

A monk can do better damage with a bow and sharpshooter than his hand for fuck sake. It's mind blowing.

>>54049812
>Not easy.

But hardly impossible. My rogue character in HotDQ pulled it off. We're not talking about the statistical impossibility of Strength 18/00 here.

>Focus obsession

Look, the point of OP was the idea that the party is totally disarmed and unable to make use of any equipment. So sure, the wizard is stripped of everything for the purposes of this thought experiment.

>you'll have to be a pretty damn metagamer GM to remove that shit.

What? No you wouldn't. Druids are a known quantity in-game, and what they use as their spellcasting foci would likewise be well-known. It's entirely plausible for someone to know to take a druid's spellcasting foci. Particularly a barbarian leader, since barbarians presumably interact with druids on a semi-regular basis, at least more so than the more urbanized classes like rogues and paladins do.

I might as a DM make the barbarian leader make an Intelligence (Nature) check to know this as justification, but the DC wouldn't be especially high, probably 13.

>>54049711
It's four trolls copypasta'ing posts from the twenty threads they've made before. It's insane how deep their autism goes.

>>54049905
>minmaxed
That has nothing to do with minmaxed, the thing is, if you don't use stun, every other martial is better than you in everything. Stun is not only your defining feature, is actually the only thing that doesn't make you stay below everybody else. Rogue deals more damage, is a better mobile combatant, has more skills and can grab/trip/shove like billion times better than you, he's basically your role, but better if you don't take into account stun. And technically Shove+Grab is as good as stun and can be done ad nauseam and most martials can do that except monk.

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>>54046299
>>54049404
Let's derail into other highly controversial subjects then

How to make a good paladin in D&D? Is it acceptable to go full templar on other religions? Would you fall for spreading and enforcing the will of your deity?
Even if you did fall, why would that even matter if you can just go blackguard and stay faithful?

>>54049921
>Barbarians combing the Druid's hair and body hair trying to remove every leaf, root, etc to be sure he doesn't have a spellcasting foci

Also, "Eh? Oh. No, you would not part an old man from his walking stick?"

>>54049918
>My monks are variant humans who waste their first feat on +2 HP per level
And that will leave them with 14-15 AC on average.

I did that several times, I also thought it would help, it didn't.

>>54049988
Stop bumping your shit thread baiting for replies, OP.

>>54049856
A paladin isn't nearly as mobile as a monk, however, and a paladin who charges to the back of an enemy's lines is basically taking out enemy spellcasters at the expense of his main party role, which is to stick close to other party members so they can benefit from his aura. This also presumes that he has the movement to close in on enemy spellcasters at all in any reliable way, since it's not like the enemy spellcasters are obligated to stand still and wait the several turns it will take for the paladin to reach them.

>>54050029
>implying
That's having 14 in dex and in wisdom. You don't even believe what you're spouting.

>>54050065
No, that's having 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8 or similar. I assume realistic stats, not everything 16+ as you do.

15, 14
+1 to two stats from V. Human
16, 15
Go to Wis/Dex
That's 15 AC, what I said

>>54049812
lets now assume a wizard has an arcan focus
>unarmed fighter deals 20 damage
>monk deals 28 damage
>wizard casts fireball, for 8d6 (24) with splash, watch out for allies
>barbarian deals 1+4+3 damage with 2 attacks for 16, but with resistance to normal damage
even accounting for a fireball, which has the same damage, but may hit multiple people, including your own, the monk is still the winner of an unarmed battle

also, the arcane focus according to the PHB is "specially constructed" and costs 10gp and weighs 1lb, so you cant just pick up a stick and call it an arcane focus

>>54050101
>so you cant just pick up a stick and call it an arcane focus
Actually you can as many official campaigns have a simple stick be an arcane focus

>>54050059
A monk isn't a lot more mobile, unless he take the Mobile feat, because he's gonna take opportunity attack or make a big detour to reach the spellcaster. He's got more movement speed, the Paladin Vengeance/Ancient can cast Mitsty step.
Your second point apply also to Monk.

>>54050098
>not 16+ as you do
I wasn't talking about level one only.
And with the standard array, a different race can go to 16 or 17 AC. A 10% difference. HP is better in the long run, you will catch up with your stats.

Could you guys go take this discussion you're forcing into another thread, rather than bumping this one? All you're doing is stroking OP's ego, if you're not just OP and his three friends to begin with.

>>54050166
>a different race can go to 16 or 17 AC
Then you don't have a feat at level 1 for +2 HP per level

Also, no, with elite array and any race your top AC is 16
Because 15, 14 with a +2 and a +1 is still at best 16, 16

Rolled 9, 7 + 1 = 17 (2d20 + 1)

>>54050007
>Also, "Eh? Oh. No, you would not part an old man from his walking stick?"

I guess the wizard can make a Deception check if he wants (almost certainly an untrained flat d20) opposed by the guard's Insight check (which even untrained will still have a +1 bonus because I never give my guards less than a 12 Wisdom).

>>54050187
Ignore OP then, if the actions you do are based on what OP would think you already lost to him, just ignore him and use the thread for whatever people is rationally talking.

>>54049988
>How to make a good paladin in D&D?

Completely ignore Judeo-Christian themes and base them on Stoicism.

The stoics believed in five core virtues: courage, honesty, justice, temperance, and wisdom. They believed that both pleasure and pain were just illusions of the senses that one must overcome to lead a life of virtue and actively pursue the betterment of the world around them. Further they believed that railing against circumstances you couldn't change or control was futile, so you should focus on actively improving the things you can control.

>Is it acceptable to go full templar on other religions?

No.

>Would you fall for spreading and enforcing the will of your deity?

If you hurt innocent people in the process, absolutely.

>Even if you did fall, why would that even matter if you can just go blackguard and stay faithful?

Hubris is a terrible sin that brings terrible justice.

Rolled 11, 19, 16 + 1 = 47 (3d20 + 1)

>>54050223
Hmm, congratulations, your wizard passed one guard's check. Now he just has to beat the other three.

>>54049988
Also Christ-Chan is a fucking creepy character, being basically a /pol/io waifu.

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>>54050035
But I'm not OP mein negger
Just someone who's sick of seeing people bite the same bait thread every single day

And I'm saging too

>>54050260
>Oh shit, he passed the roll....damn, AHA! there were three other guard, that's it, my railroad is still intact
truecolors.wav

>>54050260
I unironically do this too, this way no rogue would be able to sneak around, I always roll till they beat his roll and say there were more guards.

>>54050274
Then stop adding to this thread's post count just for OP to remake this same thread after it hits bump limit after he bumps it several times.

You're really doing nothing but being almost as much of a faggot as OP is. So, do yourself a favor, and go bump a better thread.

>>54050166
>A monk isn't a lot more mobile

A 5th level wood elf monk has a base movement speed of 45 feet, a full 15 extra feet on most paladins (and 10 extra feet on wood elf paladins). Trust me from experience, that extra 15 feet of movement makes an immense difference. If nothing else it frequently means that the monk can Move and Dash to cover 90 feet (as opposed to the 60 of most paladins, or 70 of a wood elf paladin) and end his turn adjacent to an enemy spellcaster, ready to use reactions to (stunning) attack if the spellcaster tries to move away. If the spellcaster doens't than the monk has still set up his next turn rather favorably, putting the enemy spellcaster in "check", if you will.

If absolutely nothing else, the monk has guaranteed that the spellcaster must focus on HIM rather than on his party, essentially removing the spellcaster from the party's concerns for the next round.

>>54050244
>let's keep posting in OP's thread to give his bait more exposure

You must be OP, because only OP could be this stupid.

>>54050344
How about you fuck right off and let us have fun?

>>54050283 >>54050318
Why would there only be one guard? Even in the "walking stick" scene being mentioned in Two Towers, there were at least two that I can recall.

>>54050358
Speed =/= mobile

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>>54050264
Definitely creepy, but it's part of the reason she exists.

>>54050245
All very solid points. A stoic paladin would be pretty neat. Why is going blackguard something born out of hubris, though?
Being unwilling to admit he fell because he was wrong, and going the "other route" rather than seeking redemption?

Also, then I guess that going full templar is only justifiable if you're a paladin of tyranny, right?

>>54050358
Why would the spellcaster move? he can still cast spells without risking your reaction. He can even misty step if he wants.

Also, I assume the caster is behind the non casters, so you'll have to cross over them risking many reactions.

>>54050154
Actually breaking WoTC breaking their own rules doesn't erase or cancel them

>>54050402
If you want to get pedantic, sure. The point is that a monk is able to move around the battlefield better and more reliably than any other class. Only the rogue competes with it, and only at low levels.

The Vengeance/Ancient paladin's misty step might ostensibly be better since it's more direction, but misty step is a 2nd level spell that therefore consumes a 2nd level spell slot to cast. The paladin can't keep using misty step over and over, but there's no check on the monk's movement bonus.

>>54050444
>Why is going blackguard something born out of hubris, though?

Well, if you're a member of a faith, you're defying the will of a god and actively mocking them by claiming to be one of their faithful.

>>54050507
No, rogues are better at any level, they can disengage as bonus action

Just because you move more ft doesn't mean you're more mobile

>>54050507
He also needs to spend ki to do that without eating a whole lot of opportunity attacks, and if he does so, he can't use his flurry of blows

>>54050358
>that extra 15 feet of movement makes an immense difference
My current character in PF moves 550 ft more than the second faster member of our group, it makes no difference, AoOs gonna AoO. It's incredible good though for fleeing.

>>54050468
>Also, I assume the caster is behind the non casters, so you'll have to cross over them risking many reactions.

Which is, again, where the monk's boosted movement comes in. A monk is better able to circumvent due to the bonus movement.

>He can even misty step if he wants.

Sure, if it's prepared, however many times he's prepared it. Each casting is one less 2nd level spell slot the mage can use, inlcuding using misty step to escape, and regardless the mage still has to deal with the problem of the monk now within melee distance. Misty step only carries you 30 feet max, moving another 30. The mage must either move at least 50 feet away from our hypothetical wood elf monk in order to avoid an attack on the following round (carrying it either further from the battlefield and therefore out of range of many spells; or close to the battlefield and therefore into the range of the monk's allies); or attempt to deal with the monk now so that he doesn't die; or accept that on its next turn it's getting flurried and stunned and it can't do anything about it and so continue focusing on the monk's allies despite the monk being right up in its grill

The last choice seems somewhat unlikely for most mages, though, who have a tendency to value their lives and are unlikely to make sound tactical decisions when there's a monk's fist coming right at their face when they were *supposed* to be safe behind the lines and not subject to melee attacks.

>>54050382
How about you stop sucking OP's dick by bumping his thread? This is still on page 1, so it's clear that you're not doing anything except helping him out.

>>54050584
>He also needs to spend ki to do that without eating a whole lot of opportunity attacks

Tactics, my friend. It's okay to give up opportunity attacks for the round if doing so puts you adjacent to an enemy spellcaster, since it forces the spellcaster to deal with you. Provided the spellcaster is being played as an actual person, that is, and not as a robot with no concern for his own safety.

>>54050568
Positioning, then, you pedantic asshat. The monk is better at positioning.

>>54050598
That's Pathfinder, which is its own separate set of issues. I'm focusing on 5e.

>>54050640
How about you unbunch your panties? Nobody cares, and OP totally has a point about D&D being shit.

>>54050640
Why hasn't this thread been deleted yet?

>>54050664
>I am OP

What a surprise, what a surprise, no one could have guessed.

>>54050613
One might think the smartest classes should be the ones making the soundest tactical decisions if you ask me. I dunno, I played a couple of casters and I still think that moving away never got me into a better situation, I just cast something that will fuck him, this usually helps me more than fleeing.

>>54046299
Oh god. Are we going to be putting up with this all summer?
>When did you realize OPs opinion was garbage?

>>54050663
Except your AC and your HPs are meh, your "tactics" (aka giving free attacks to your enemies) might cost your life.

>>54050675
>EVERYONE WHO DISAGREES WITH ME IS ONE OF THEM!

Kek. Histrionic dipshit.

>>54050708
OP, while annoying as hell, has a point

>>54050742
Only on 3.PF

>>54050702
>One might think the smartest classes should be the ones making the soundest tactical decisions if you ask me

Maybe, but intelligence has nothing to do with coolness under pressure.

Whether you move away or cast a spell on the monk, that still means that for at least one turn you were targeting the monk, adjacent to you, rather than his allies, who could use that time to move closer.

If we liken it to a battlefield, consider the mage as an artillery brigade and the monk as special forces, with everyone else being infantry. The special forces' attack on the artillery prevented them from firing while the artillery dealt with the special forces' attack, which allows the special forces' infantry to advance upon the enemy infantry, even as their own artillery now lays into the enemy infantry without having to worry about the enemy artillery attacking back at them.

Or something, the metaphor's a bit muddy but you get the point.

>>54050770
5E is bad too if only because of how bland and ubiquitous it is

>>54050770
Nah, the other editions have plenty of shit, and the monk being useless is pretty standard for D&D at this point.

>>54050800
>>54050802
I thought we were talking about the specific case OP presented.

>>54049601

>No, 4e monks are great.

4e Monks are garbage by virtue of being in 4e

>>54050802
Eh, I enjoy OSR

>>54050825
4e monks have something no other D&D monk has, A ROLE, they know what they want to do and they excel at it. You might not like how combat focused and battlefield tactic 4e is, but that doesn't mean 4e Monk isn't good in that system.

>>54050723
A 5th level wood elf monk can be reasonably expected to have a 17 AC (18 Wis, 16 Dexterity), which is about average, not "meh". Likewise with a 12 Constitution he can be reasonably assumed to have about 33 hit points, which is enough to survive the average damage of any one spell that comes his way, if it hits, which it might not (enemy spellcaster can be reasonably presumed to have an 18 (+4) in casting stat for a +7 (+3 prof) to attack, meaning an attack spell has only a 50/50 chance to hit the monk's AC; the enemy spellcaster's save DC is 15 (8+4+3); the monk's saves down the line can be presumed to be +3/+6/+1/+0/+4/-1, which means the % chance of passing a DC 15 saving throw down the line are 45/60/35/30/50/25; since the most common saves are Dex, Con, and Wis, only the Con saving throw is truly worrying)

>>54050864

Monks have a role in both 3.5e, Pathfinder, and shit even 5e.

And yes, Monks did have a role in 4e! ...One that was literally said by the game to be a role in of itself.

Good games do not work like that. They let a player grow into a role rather than "THIS IS WHAT YOU'RE PLAYING!"

There is literally nothing redeeming about monks in 4e or 4e in general. We've been over this time and time again. Sales have shown this because 3.5e, PF, and 5e are far more popular than the disaster that was known as 4e. There is nothing redeeming about the system or anything inside of it. The fact that virtually no one outside of small groups remain to the system and that 3.5e/PF/5e's playbase DWARFS 4e is testament to that.

Now toddle off, adults are talking.

>>54050841
I like it well enough too, but it's got some serious issues and one of the most annoying fanbases.

>>54051013
>one of the most annoying fanbases
What makes you say this? In my experience the fanbase of OSR is one of the tamest and mildest I've ever seen, in RPGs or outside of them.

>playing anima
>forced to hand over all we have to the lord of the land
>we are all taos

>>54050999
>Good games do not work like that. They let a player grow into a role rather than "THIS IS WHAT YOU'RE PLAYING!"

But said role is determined by your class. A fighter is never going to be the group's skill monkey, his class doesn't allow it.

>>54050999
Popularity doesn't equate to quality, that and 4E does what it sets out to do, which is better than the mess of 3.f and the blandness of 5E

>>54050999
>Monks have a role in both 3.5e, Pathfinder, and shit even 5e.

Is that role 'Be a trap for new players?' as jesus christ 3.5 and pathfinder monks are terrible.

>>54046299
When I realize I've seen this EXACT thread every day for, what, two weeks now. Oh wait, it's the THREAD that's garbage.

1/10: Got your <You>, find new bait.

>>54050999
By role I mean a useful and effective role, cook is a role, but is nor useful not effective in D&D.

3.5 monk had no role, it pretended to be a mobile combatant with some skills, it was nor mobile (as his speed clashed with other of his features) nor combatant (it sucked at it) nor skillmonkey as even the barb had the same skill ranks and probably could had more Int because not MAD. Stun gun is not a role either.

In 4e monk was a melee battlefield controller, he was good at melee, and great at controlling the battlefield, something uselful.

>>54050999

>Good games do not work like that. They let a player grow into a role rather than "THIS IS WHAT YOU'RE PLAYING!"

You mean like 4e where a monk could be a Striker, Controller OR Defender depending on how you built him?

>>54051068
Not the guy you're responding to, but I remember several threads, either with the same person or several people with very similar notions, who decried "Modern" sensibilities and pined for an older school style of play.

I'm a real oldfag, started playing tabletop RPGs in 1983. I remember the old school era when it wasn't a revival, and I remember the warts too. Trying to explain this person/these people the possible downsides of a looser, vaguer system was inevitably met with "nuh-uh, it doesn't work like that" or with appeals as to how better refereeing would have resolved things better. Especially if you get a bad referee, the systems are not good, precisely because they regulate less and give the ref more to handle.

But the attitude of
>I know how this style works better than you do because I looked at a few PDFs and am looking for a game and you've played for years like that
is pretty cancerous.

>>54051184

No it's not. Monks in all those systems are great.

4e is garbage because I think spells should go on magic classes rather than a lazy copy/paste over to Martial. Make some other system if you want to do neat things (Even though you can do amazing things already [And before you say you can't, it's not my fault you are shit at coming up with ideas to use if you try to use this excuse])

>>54050963
Except, again, you're only focusing on the caster, to reach him, as we already said, you had to provoke from his friends. Unless this is a 1 dude encounter only, in that case the caster will be of higher CR than you and probably render you useless with one spell.

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>>54046299

>>54051182
5e is by a significant margin the least bland D&D I've played. Sure, there's not a bloat of options, but at the same time my character choices are all derived from "what makes sense for my character to practice at?" rather than "what gives me the largest bonuses an the smallest penalties?"

>>54051233
>Monks in all those systems are great.
>Monk, great in motherfucking 3.PF
And the bait showed himself out

>>54046299
>a barbarian moot
>a bunch of half naked, violent tribals meet up to discuss something important
>No one saw that this could only end in half naked violence
>no one prepared accordingly

Sounds like your PCs were all a bunch of fucking morons.

>>54050385
The one who confronted Gandalf was the captain of the guard, if memory serves. No guardsman is going to overrule his captain, unless he sees something the captain didn't. So if the captain is the one doing the talking, he's pretty much the only one you need to worry about.

13th Age has the best monks by mechanical design

Too bad they were poorly tuned so the class is still underpowered

>>54051301
>Implying the martials can suddenly learn how to combat naked in D&D
Casters would not have a problem though

>>54051310
How are they supposed to work? never played 13th age

>>54051068
Discussion of these games usually tends towards circle jerking, and criticism of the games themselves is typically met with suggestions that the referee isn't doing a good enough job, or that somehow explaining Gygax's reasoning for a particular idiom of the system will somehow mean that it's automatically a good decision and you should agree with it.

>>54051247
Personally I find character creation lacking, your choices basically being pick 4 to 6 skills, pick a class, and pick an archetype, that and the non magical combat is crap, it is one of the better versions of DnD though

>>54051238
>you had to provoke from his friends

No, again, because of the monk's increase speed, a monk is less likely to need to move in a straight line and thus more able to avoid opportunity attacks.

Here, I'll draw you a picture. Note that the paladin and the monk both start equidistant from their respective enemies.

>>54051319
>implying they didn't cause the fight
>implying they even had to be involved in the fight, providing they DIDN'T cause it.

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>>54051431
Shoot, forgot picture. Mea culpa.

>>54051226
>>54051364
If you're looking for a perfect, utterly pure cinnamon roll fanbase with absolutely no poor elements to it before you can deem it as something other than "one of the most cancerous shit fanbases out there", then you're going to take a very long time to find anything at all.

>>54050059
>main party role of a Paladin is to stay with the group

Personal opinion but not the best way to play Paladin in 5e. You grab a sword and shield, put the shield away and grab a 2nd sword because now your doing literal fucktons of radiant damage to anyone who remotely looks like a spell caster.

No need to give your team the aura and waste time not killing the caster when you can just attack 3 times a turn at weapon dice + improved smite + smite dice.

>>54051384
Honestly I actually think what the game needs is more higher-level choices. Most of the choices you make four your a character are at 1st-3rd level, except for feats. I'd appreciate more feats. Fortunately the UAs have been great about adding feats.

>>54049601
>And if you allow feats boom, suddenly the worse damage dealer among the martials.
They are literally the only martial that can deal infinite damage twice in a turn to kill a wildshaping druid

>>54051442
The thing that started the fight has nothing to do with the abilities to be prepared for it, the fact still remains, even if you knew you had to be unarmed and you had to fight unarmed, no martial (except monk) would be able to prepare for that so your first post >>54051301
>no one prepared accordingly is moot

>>54050666
because in spite of you being the devil, nobody here exists to cater to your worthless desires

>>54051501
Are those any high level exclusive feats? I haven't looked at UA

>>54051521
>17th level feature
Nobody plays that far
>Twice in a turn
Actually once per TWO turns.
First you hit with an Action
Next in your second turn you activate it with another Action.
Two Actions mean two turns

>>54051550
No, and actually 5e shies away from having high-level exclusive feats.

>>54051566
5e shies away from having high level good features for martials too

>>54051543
?

>>54051578
On 4chan, if someone's post number ends in "666", it's customary to refer to them as the Devil, Satan, or the like.

>>54051344
You have schools of techniques, each one with three techniques each, an opener, a flow, and a finisher. You can use an opener whenever, but you can only use a flow attack after using an opener on your last turn, and can only use a finisher after using a flow on your last turn. You can mix and match techniques from different schools though, so you can use the opener of school 1, the flow of school 3, and the finisher of school 2 or whatever.

The result of this is that it's extremely rare for you to ever be repeating actions, and you're always building up for the next big finisher hit

>>54051606
I didn't notice the Satan trips

>>54051621
That sounds fucking cool as fuck. I assume these combos have mechanical effects and isn't just saying "I karate chop, then flying back kick, then scyssors kick" right?

>>54051576
>5e shies away from high level

>>54051833
Except if you're caster
>Infinite onion layers
>Casting fireballs like cantrips
>etc

>>54051680
Well, unfortunately, openers don't have effects that last for the full combo or anything like that.

But they still do different things, for example the "Claws of the Panther" opener lets you disengage for free when used, the "Dutiful guardian" flow attack let's you choose between getting a free move action or +4 to your physical defense (which is sort of like reflex + fortitude), and the "Dance of the Mantis" finisher gives you +1 to your crit range for all techniques for the rest of the battle if you rolled an even number on the d20 for your attack roll

>>54051521
Excuse me if I'm wrong, but doesn't quivering palm reduce the enemy to 0 HPs? that means the druid will return to human form, and he can in his turn wildshape again.
Quivering Palm costs 3 ki and two turns. So you basically will need 4 turns and 6 ki to leave him without wildshapes (assuming he didn't pass the saves).

In 4 turns he'll probably do a lot of damage to you, or cast something that will fuck you, no? You basically aren't doing anything else in those 4 turns.

I'm a little rusty in 5e rules, it's been 8 months since my last game and I didn't look at the rules since then.

>>54051957
By crit range you mean that it goes from 20 to 19-20?

>>54051967
I don't think that's how wildshape works I thought the extra HP you got for wildshaping was treated like temporary HP, so being "reduced to 0" means it consumes all the wildshape HP and the druid's base HP

>>54051989
yes

Finishers tend to be very powerful, but you can only do them every three turns

>>54052009
that doesn't seem very powerful though, unless the combat lasts too long. You basically need to land 3 hits in 3 different turns (last one has to be odd roll) and then for the rest of the encounter you get 19-20 on your attacks. In D&D combats don't usually last more than 5 turns.

>>54051996
No, as far as I remember, you treat the creature you wildshaped as your new HPs till you run out of them any extra damage in the last hit goes to you. So, if you get reduced to 0 HPs, you turn back to your human form but no damage passes to you.

>>54052039
Well, it's also got a big hit attached

But yes, you're entirely right, as i said before problem is the tuning, it's a good idea, but they're not actually given the power they need

>>54052066
But the problem here is that monks suck and moon druids are already super powerful, so if you go by that ruling you're justmaking the problem worse

But hey, what do I know? With the only errata for the PHB released so far for 5e, they nerfed what were already the two weakest class options in the game, so WotC clearly know what they're doing

>>54051471
They are particularly bad. Even when compared to other imperfect fanbases.

If you ever ask /osrg/ about why all their favorite games preserve awful sacred cows like the B/X saves system, the thread will derail into endless accusations of you being a shitposter and conspiracy theories that everyone who doesn't like their games is the same troll who keeps coming back.

>>54046299
>encounter a dragon in a dungeon
>it's too large to move and fight in a 5x5ft. hall
Really makes you think.

>>54050613
>. A monk is better able to circumvent due to the bonus movement.

And then the enemy front line turns around and beats you to death because you're separated.

>>54052418
Well, then fine.

Name me a -good- fanbase. Name me a few to which you can compare OSR fans and say they're "particularly bad".

>>54052418
My favorite game is Swords & Wizardry and it uses exactly one saving throw, with some classes getting a bonus against specific threats. It is still entirely compatible with old school content.

Gimme another. I'm having fun.

>>54052490
Who even uses 5ft corridors?

>>54053841
Don't monks get uncanny dodge?

>>54054166
DCC doesn't use those saves either.

>>54055872
DCC is barely OSR at all.

>>54055705
No, actually they don't

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>>54046299

>>54055705
>>54056164
No, but their wisdom bonus to Ac and the AC bonus they get to that bonus are unaffected being flat footed or surprised. So yes, they lose their dex bonus to Ac, but they retain that wisdom bonus regardless.

Also, OP is a dipshit.

>>54049380
PF unchained monks are monsters.

>>54056309
Hehehe, no, they aren't, tier 4 and that's it.

>>54046299
>>54056271
>>54055175
There are three of these bloody threads on the front page right now. Someone needs to ban this guy.

>>54046299
As a 3abo I have to say this is 3es second biggest problem.

>>54056363
These aren't even good bait threads, they're shitty hypotheticals that only make sense in games that were discontinued more than 10 years ago. That's the actually infuriating part.

>>54056678
And yet they work so great.

>>54056654
Why is the monk even there anyway? It's hardly a western class.

>>54057120
What has to do western with D&D?

>>54057383
Nothing. It doesn't even have guns.

>>54051663
>Satan trips
He's coming back. He will return. And he'll posses your body and he'll make you burn.

>>54054166
Swords and Wizardry isn't one of the three games that they endlessly circle jerk to; it's an occasionally mentioned sideshow, and one of the most common criticisms is "I don't like the saving throw."

That is also about the only sacred cow that game bothered to kill.

>>54052418
>>54054166
>>54058674
The thing about the "sacred cows" of those old games is that they work on a certain logic neither the developers nor the players of newer editions ever got. They may look archaic and weird, but changing them made a mess.

Yes, that includes even the saving throws.

>>54056654

Just curious to know what you rank 1st. Quadratic Wizard? WorDorC in general? Personally, I think the skill system being objectively poor ranks above Monk MAD, or MAD -vs- SAD in general.

>>54058740
>that they work on a certain logic

Yep, and here we get to my original point: where explaining that Gygax (or Moldvay or Mentzer or whoever) had a rationale behind these decisions means they're automatically good. Well that's rubbish, there was a rationale and a logic behind the construction of FATAL; that doesn't make it good. They're preserved to maintain the nostalgic aesthetic sensibilities of the fans and nothing else.

Also you reminded me of the other thing I fucking hate about the OSR fanbase, the third reaction to criticism: accusing anyone who criticizes these games of just having the a mindset tainted by modern gaming, as though modern gaming were the ruinous powers or something.

>>54058674
Swords & Wizardry is one of the big ones. Of the retroclones, Labyrinth Lord, Lamentations of the Flame Princess, and Swords & Wizardry are the ones that seem to get the most attention over time. DCC sporadically gets a fair bit of attention, but is always controversial. Basic Fantasy is similarly sporadic, sometimes getting enough mentions to be put in the most-discussed group, but seeming to disappear from consciousness other times.

>and one of the most common criticisms is "I don't like the saving throw."
I mean, it's a thing it does differently than normal, which makes it a focus for attention, but in my experience, people in /osr/ tend to bring it up as a good thing.

>>54058818
I'm not saying any of it is automatically great or not weird, or that they couldn't have done these things better or easier - just that for all their faults, Gygax and the others were still pretty good at game design. They made it work well enough, whereas the guys behind FATAL just made a big mess.

Would it have been better to just come up with the fortitude/reflex/will thing from the start and made that work well instead? Probably. But it doesn't mean the old saving throws don't work at all.

>The monk was still fucking useless
Sounds like the player sucks. Monks are the easiest fucking class to build for other than maybe Fighters.

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Play GURPS instead.

>>54058834
The three that get attention on /tg/ are B/X, Labyrinth Lord, and Lamentations of the Flame Princess. Elsewhere it's AD&D.

>>54058893
This, basically because whatever you do, you will suck hard.

>>54058865
>Gygax and the others were still pretty good at game design.

No they weren't. Even back in the day Gygax was flooded with letters from people who encountered issue with his system, issues not dissimilar to the ones still felt today. The main thing those games have going for them is being light and thus relatively modular; but the OSR fanbase turns them into a fucking dogma, and you can see this in the endless arguing over what is or is not OSR (off the top of my head, whether 2nd, despite being basically just a cleaned up 1st is OSR).

>But it doesn't mean the old saving throws don't work at all.

No one claimed they didn't.

>>54050999
S T A L E B A I T

>>54051451
>monk ends his movement 5 ft away from enemy melees and 30+ feet away from help
>spellcaster standing 5 ft behind his guards
It's like you want to get your shit kicked in

>>54059759
The guards are just going to ignore everyone else? The image only shows the spellcaster and the monk for the sake of simplicity; you and I both know that there's no reason why there couldn't be more allies for the monk in the picture.

>>54058942
Those are three that get a lot of attention, but not the only ones. Honestly, Labyrinth Lord has fallen away a bit in favor of plain old B/X. In the last two /osr/ threads (including the current one, which is currently sitting at 260 replies), S&W was mentioned in 3 posts, and LL just 1. Granted, that's probably just a happenstance low ebb for LL, but I still don't think that LL crowds out S&W.

>>54050223
>>54050260

In 3.5, the guards are going to be at a flat roll or penalized because of the mild request and crowd.

In 5e, they're double fucked, because any advantage they could get is nullified by having another PC help him with the ruse.

In both cases, you have at worst a 50% chance to get in with your stave (before you consider sweetening the deal with a bribe or similar: No concrete values on the 5e scenario, but it bumps the 3.5 to a ~75% chance of success.)

If your adventure relies on your PC's being unarmed, don't bother making them roll to be unarmed. Be honest, use some fucking magic and play it above the table.

>>54061380
I stick exclusively to 5e these days.

>because any advantage they could get is nullified by having another PC help him with the ruse.

And the guards can't help each other with insight checks?

>>54061449

PCs use aid other to get advantage.

Guards use aid other to get advantage.

Roll is now flat: If both sides have advantage or both have disadvantage, it's ignored.

>>54061055
Nigger that's the whole fucking point.

Assuming everything else in this contrived scenario is as-is the guards have three options:
>Ignore the monk, get raped from the front and behind when the monk finishes off the wizard
>Focus the monk with the wizard, then gang up on the monk's allies with spell support
>Stand 5 feet further apart so the monk can't get to the caster to begin with
Extra speed is nice man, but it's not enough to carry the class.

>>54061480
So the roll is now flat, and the wizard most likely has a +0, whereas the guard certainly has a +1

Or alternatively, the guard has his orders and just follows them: "no weapons, you're a wizard, you have a staff, you don't get to keep your staff, it's a weapon in your hands. This is a ridiculous world of magic that I grew up in, I know you need your staff."

>>54061622
No, it's not enough to carry the class - which is why the class also has stunning strike, Wisdom bonus to AC, deflect missiles, evasion, and so on, plus their subclass features.

I'm not saying the monk class doesn't need some improvement, I'm just saying that it's not nearly as bad off as is being implied in this thread.

>>54046299
This entire thread is shit and should die.

>>54061651

"You can't convince him" isn't a rule; "He's got orders and is difficult to convince" is.

Of course, this isn't even getting into the fact that a level 3 wizard can simply use suggestion, which sticks the guard on a nearly guaranteed failure for disarming the spellcaster. All he needs is to ask the guard to speak with his lieutenant.

Finally, It's trivially easy to smuggle spell components if you pay attention to the book, that self same suggestion only requires the wizard to carry honeycomb: Robbing the wizard of his trail rations is outside reasonable behavior unless your guards are somehow immune to offending visitors.

>>54050007
>>54050385
AcKSTHuaLLY Gandalf was giving a transparently flimsy excuse to a guard captain who was clearly disenfranchised by Wyrmtongue's bullshit and therefore went along with Gandalf. Note that those guardsman hang back and then quietly intervene once the fellowship starts taking down Wyrmtongue's sycophants.

For a guardsman with no such conflict of loyalty that trick would be a little more difficult.

>>54062316
maybe the moot guards want a fight to break out and most of the barbarian leaders to die so that their tribe has an advantage. there's no reason for the guards to not have a reason like in lord of the rings

>>54062394
Or maybe the moot guards are bullies who want to take the wizard's stupid stick just because it makes him cry. Security/Enforcement always attracts a special kind of person.

>>54062495
Then they are meanies and we have the moral highground.

>>54061948
>a level 3 wizard can simply use suggestion

Sure, but unless he passes a Sleight of Hand check to hide it, SOMEONE is going to be curious about why he took out a snake's tongue and either a bit of honeycomb or a drop of sweet oil, and then did some arcane-looking shenanigans with them. After having been told to give up his staff precisely so that he will have a harder time casting spells.

Arguably he should also make a separate Deception check to pass off the arcane mumbo-jumbo he chanted for 3-6 seconds in clear, precise tones as well, but I'm a generous DM and willing to let him roll it into his other Deception check.

Again, this is a ridiculous world of magic where wizards are a known quantity, not Lord of the Rings were there have seriously only ever been like 5 at most at any one time. The precise details of magic are obscure and mysterious, but everyone knows "wizards + random smelly components = bad news".

>>54051310
>13th
>not anima
Do you even 120 base damage full plate having monks while naked at epic level that ignore armor or can even attack your soul/life energy anon?
Anima has best fantasy unarmed fighters, GURPS best realist.

>>54049921
Are they checking every person for brambles and twigs in this scenario? I sure as hell ain't telling anyone I'm a magic forest man.

>>54063101
It shouldn't be a deception or sleight of hand check. He should not be able to hide it without proper class features or feats.

>>54063317
Anima is great if you want to be shackled to a d100 that uses increments of 5 and want to roll a lot and use really big numbers because big numbers are good.

Like that monk, it has big numbers, so it must be good!

>>54064569
Except it doesnt. But hey keep yourself in your system; I'll enjoy mine while you cry how your system of choice is broken beyond belief and refuse all answers that arent contrived clones of it.


best part about anima is how hard it triggers retards who played it once, missinterpretend the rules and spee vile everytime they hear the word 'anima'

>>54050999
>Good games do not work like that. They let a player grow into a role rather than "THIS IS WHAT YOU'RE PLAYING!"

retarded 4e trolling is my achilles heel, no matter how transparently fake it is I always get mad

>>54065440
It doesn't use a d100 with increments of 5 on almost everything?

It doesn't roll a lot of shit and use large numbers just because?

Please, go ahead and explain how those are false. I'm looking forward to your 25 step flowchart that makes combat so easy.

>>54065515
If numbers are so hard for you, you can use the rule that turns everything into d20. making those goddamn awful increments of 5 in increments of 1

>>54065515
>It doesn't use a d100 with increments of 5 on almost everything?
Increments are commonly larger, but sometimes it's that one rank that makes all the difference. Also the exploding dice system won't work on anything other than a d100 unless you do some SenZar shit where you switch from a d20 to a d100 at a certain point.

>It doesn't roll a lot of shit and use large numbers just because?
>just because
No. Here are a couple of reasons off the top of my head:
1: Large numbers are traditional in anime. Power level over 9? That's not impressive. Over 9000? I do't even have to know the scale to know that means some shit is about to go down.
2: It's a Rolemaster derivative. Many rolls are par for the course.

>>54065515
>25 step
1. Roll attack
2. Roll defense
3. Attack-(defense+armor)*1% of base damage

#wow
#hardmaths
#thirdgrade

>>54065563
It'd be an improvement. Then there's just the rest of the game left.

>>54065571
>but sometimes it's that one rank that makes all the difference

Literally 1% of the time...

> Also the exploding dice system won't work on anything other than a d100

Oh right, forgot about THAT gem

>>54065690
>1. Roll attack
>2. Roll defense

Opposed rolling is a fucking thrash mechanic.

>3. Attack-(defense+armor)*1% of base damage

Oh yeah, that sounds simple and convoluted at all.

I also bet there are no common abilities complicating any of those steps further, or quirks with initiative and the like.

>>54065690
To be fair, that's only one attack roll, and only in the event where the attacker wins.

And that formula's not quite right,
it's actually Floor[( A-D-a-10*AT )/100] *fd

>>54065742
>Opposed rolling is a fucking thrash mechanic.
Straight to the bin.

>>54065742
Dungeon world is more your speed then.

>>54065759
Well you have to floor all non-ini post roll values so its a moot (although VERY important point).

But here have it complete
3a attack<def
4a go to start add half of the difference to the attack if you want to. Its an attack action
3b attack>def def loses active
4b attack-(def+prot)*1% base damage

>>54066037
>Dungeon world is more your speed then.
I'm sorry, not wanting to use opposed rolls, overcomplicated mechanics, and a d% now means you want to play DW?

Although, I don't really mind the PbtA systems so I guess sure, whatever... not sure how that makes Anima not suck suddenly though.

>>54066108
>not sure how that makes Anima not suck suddenly though.
It doesn't. Because it didn't suck to begin with, you just have dyscalculia.

>>54066122
I don't mind calculating. I mind pointlessly calculating.

>>54066108
>I dont like opposed rolls and heavy crunch!
>try DW it doesnt have either
>REEEEEEEE
Why you so mad anon?

>>54066152
Because DW is a worse system than D&D.

>>54066146
What game has "non poinless calculation" then?

What games do you enjoy?

>I started a fight among a bunch of badasses after letting them take my weapons and not hiding a dagger in my boot or anything.
>That this didn't go well is the system's fault!
What the fuck.

>>54066152
>>54066161

Nah. I even accept DW as an ok alternative; not perfect, but it hits a lot of notes. There are probably some better OSR and PbtA games out there to choose from though.

>>54066168
Looking at ones that don't use a d% is a good start. It's needlessly granular. I think the d20 is still a bit too big, but it's a lot more manageable.

Opposed rolls is also usually a bad sign, because you can almost always design to not need them. You can definitely do it when the resolution mechanic is always 1 kind of dice.

I have a love-hate relationship with dicepools. I think they detract more than they add, most of the time. I'll say, ORE and LotW do make good use of them though.

Anyway, I like OSR games. I like Barbarians of Lemuria. I like 4e and 5e (although I have problems with both and my ideal modern D&D game would be somewhere in the middle... maybe with a d10 instead of a d20). I like Savage Worlds, with some tweaks. I'm okay with PbtA systems and Fate Accelerated (Core is terrible though).

>>54066278
desu op never specified what started the fight.

>>54066294
You like rules light games that require no interaction outside your frame of time and tiny numbers.

That is fine.

That is not anima.

Anima as a system works; sets out to do thing and mostly does it pretty well, its rough around the edges but it fun if you like crunchy games and bullshit characters meeting even more bullshit and dying because a knife to the head fucking hurts. Mostly your complains come from the fact you like the exact opppsite of anima; much likely they'd also come up on gurps.

>>54066377
>You like rules light games
>4e
>Rules light
>5e
>Rules light
>Savage Worlds
>Rules Light
>implying

It's not even about rules. Anima doesn't have more rules than 4e. It's ease of play.

>Mostly your complains come from the fact you like the exact opppsite of anima; much likely they'd also come up on gurps.

GURPS is too fiddly for me, but it at least uses a 3d6 instead of a d100.

>>54066400
>i didnt comprehend the post!

Its fine anon; someday you may grasp it.

Now go cry and scream about how much you hate anima.

These threads are, by far, the worst collection of system discussion you can find on this board. I hope no one actually takes anything these idiots say seriously.

>>54066480
>Its fine anon; someday you may grasp it.

Man, I may have been shitting on Anima, but at least I don't go "oh well, you are just too dumb to understand my points".

Which is rather ironic when you keep trying to persuade me that I just love rules light games, instead of having a problem with a shitty system that also happens to be crunchy, but sure, whatever.

>Now go cry and scream about how much you hate anima.

Sure, see you next thread!

>>54066347
When in doubt, assume the players did something stupid.

>>54064517
That's not how 3e, 4e, or 5e works.

>>54064301
You're adventurers. Starting at even 3rd level, you're already starting to become local celebrities, whose great feats are told by troubadours and play-acted by children. The higher level you achieve, the greater your renown. Sometimes this works in your favor. Sometimes it doesn't.

>>54067237
>That's not how 3e, 4e, or 5e works.

That's exactly how all of them work.

3e has metamagic and class features for hiding casting.

In 4e, everyone explicitly knows if they are a target of a spell/ability, unless something says otherwise.

In 5e, again, it's explicit that spells are obvious, unless you use a metamagic or the spell says otherwise.

You could say that someone else in the party distracts everyone so you can cast your spell without being noticed, but using sleigh of hand to do it is kinda silly; it's like saying "I use Stealth to shout without being loud!".

Of course, you may still do that as a lenient DM I guess.

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>>54067058
There's room for doubt? Since when?

>>54067292
5e also explicitly plays fast and loose with the rules. Secretly pulling out and manipulating spell components in the right way seems like it should certainty fall under the purview of Sleight of Hand.

I also never said the Sleight of Hand DC would be low - or even achievable. In fact I rather think the point of my post is that spellcasting is obvious in D&D, it's not as simple as just "I cast X spell without anyone realizing it".

I make it a habit to never say "no" to my players, though. If they want to try and do something, they can try and do the thing. There is no guarantee of success, and for some things there's a certainty of failure. Though having said that in this particular instance I'd probably just make it DC 20.

>>54067237
>Starting at even 3rd level, you're already starting to become local celebrities, whose great feats are told by troubadours and play-acted by children
Tell that to my DM and his grimdark campaign.

>>54068199
Well, that's just your DM being shite, innit?

>>54066480
>Its fine anon; someday you may grasp it.
If you can't get your point across in a way that an idiot can't grasp it, then the point is probably not a good one.

>>54067539
Your argument is shit and how your backpedaling to try and cover your ass when you're obviously wrong. Go fuck yourself with a rake.

>>54068416
It takes a special kind of a retard to demand every single thing to be written down, leaving no room for improvisation or DM judgement.

It's shit like that how you get games like GURPS.

>>54068529
You want Risus for that, not 5e.

>>54046299

>The monk was still fucking useless

Monks are A. a trap class and B. have no place in D&D as they are. No really. D&D tries to be a RPG based on old school swords and sorcery. They have things like magic arms & armor. How to you balance the fighter types against "unarmed combat masters" while still making magic arms & armor potent. Fighters will either end up being a weaker base line class then the monk or being much better in game play do to better ability to make use of wealth. If you go with the former you are setting up giant issues because the monk can still use the money on other things were the fighter now HAS to use the money only on arms & armor to keep up in combat math.

>Playing [literally any RPG where combat is normally done with weapons]
>We hand over our weapons
>A fight happens
>We are at a disadvantage against people who do have weapons
WOW WHAT A SHIT GAME

>>54068609
>D&D tries to be a RPG based on old school swords and sorcery
Never ever
D&D since day one had different cultures, it had mongolian hordes, native americans, hindues, etc. Monk class appeared in day 2 for god sakes, at the same time as Cleric, but Monks per se have been in D&D since the begining.

Your head cannon =/= what the game is meant to be. Monks are shit, but they belong in D&D because they have been in D&D since ever.

>>54068886
I agree with your critique of that post as a whole, but not with your decision to greentext that specific part as a problem.

D&D was definitely inspired heavily by the works of Howard, Lieber, and Moorcock, who were the big three names in sword-and-sorcery. The law-chaos alignment thing was lifted directly from Moorcock, and the idea of a "thieves' guild" with that name was from Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser.

Anyway, Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser isn't sword-and-sorcery that has a race of people called the "Mingols" who are clearly based on Mongols, for example.

>>54068969
*Anyway, Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser is sword-and-sorcery that has a race of people called the "Mingols" who are clearly based on Mongols, for example.
Fixed an error.

>>54068969
Doesn't matter where the insipiration comes, the fact that martial artists appeared since day one in the game and in the setting is proof enough Monks belong to it, it took just a couple of months till they released the class.

You might not like it, it might be badly implemented but is false that "monks don't belong to D&D".

In fact, if I remember correctly Monks even appeared before Rangers.

About weapons and armors, that's mainly a problem of the WPL that everybody should have a certain amount of gold at every level. Monks still need to spend their wealth in their respective +1 weapons (AoMF) and armors (Monk's robe, bracers of armor, etc), just happens that as it's now, on top of being MAD, medium BaB, medium HP class those items cost THREE times more than the fighter's respective. Fighter has a sword +1? 2000 GP, monk has an AoMF+1? 6000 GP. Fighter has an armor +1? 1000 please, Monk has monk robes? 12000GP. Also Fighter's weapons and armors have other stuff on top of a simple +X, monk's items don't. So no, it never ever is better to be monk as it's now even if you give them full BaB and HD d10.

About the green text, I meant to copy all including the part "Have no place in D&D" which is the important part and what I wanted to refute but something went wrong and I only paste the second part and of course didn't proofread, for that I'm a moron.

>>54049525
You can't just grab any stick. You have to get an arcane focus stick. The fact that it costs like 50 gold or something implies that not just any stick will do.

>>54069222
Actually 10 gp
And also wotc contradicts itself making normal walking staves in official campaigns being also arcane foci
Then there's divine focus for druids that can be basically a couple of leaves, small roots, etc
And there's a pretty good feat that makes you be able to cast without material components (on top of giving you other nice stuff)

>>54049525
You need to actually read the post chain you jumped into.

>>54068416
Is your argument that when the wizard pulls out a snake's tongue and some honeycomb, mumbles some magic words, and suddenly the guard he was talking to is like "oh, nevermind, Mr. Wizard, you should totally just keep your staff", that this is how people should actually act in D&D? Like they don't live in a world in magic where they know shit like this can and does happen?

>>54068969
>D&D was definitely inspired heavily by the works of Howard, Lieber, and Moorcock, who were the big three names in sword-and-sorcery.

In The Hour of the Dragon, Conan fights three monks, or at least that's the only way I can describe them. They're travelers from the far eastern land of Khitai who use martial arts and have a technique where with a single strike they can kill a person.

He fights them in Stygia (Egypt), but they had been tracking him since passing through Zamora (Spain) and indeed were sent by one of his enemies in Aquilonia (France/Rome).

>>54069173
>>54069589
I mean, I'm fine with monks existing fluff-wise, though I agree they need reworking. I was just saying that D&D is indeed inspired by S&S.

>>54046299
>Warlock still outdamaged him without any kind of focus, alternatively Blade Pact
>LaughingEldritchKnight.jpg

>>54069173
>In fact, if I remember correctly Monks even appeared before Rangers.

Yup. The original three classes are what we today call Fighter, Cleric, and Wizard. Following that was Thief and Paladin with Greyhawk, then Monk and Assassin in Blackmoor, then Druids and Psions with Eldritch Wizardry. The two subsequent publications didn't include any new classes.

So the original D&D classes are: Assassin, Cleric, Druid, Fighter, Monk, Psion, Thief, and Wizard.

I believe the Ranger was introduced in Dragon magazine originally, and became part of AD&D 1st Edition.

Are people forgetting that there're lots of useful spells that don't need material components? Most cantrips don't use them, charm person doesn't use them, disguise self, burning hands, fog, shield, expeditious retreat, etc don't.

Some even have so simple components that you might even find everywhere, for example, grease needs butter or pork fat and you were in a reunion, not hard to imagine there might be food, and probably pork unless muslim barbs

I had removed my component pouch and arcane focus more than once and still managed to control the encounter, GM started to tying me and gag me everytime we had a "non weapons reunion", kinda metagamey because I never dressed like a wizard, but hey, whatever, he was a railroader.

>>54069678
Blade pact is a trap though...unless you go Paladin/Undying light Warlock/Draconic Sorcerer, in that case, you might be as good as a EB turret Warlock

>>54069589
>Is your argument that when the wizard pulls out a snake's tongue and some honeycomb, mumbles some magic words, and suddenly the guard he was talking to is like "oh, nevermind, Mr. Wizard, you should totally just keep your staff", that this is how people should actually act in D&D? Like they don't live in a world in magic where they know shit like this can and does happen?
You literally can't mumble them. If you mumble them the spell doesn't go off. They have to be said in a "loud clear voice".

>>54051525
>I have no idea what I am talking about
Why the fuck do people keep saying this shit?

Several classes do just fine. A Barbarian has perfectly decent damage with proper strength, a Warlock does just fine at this level without a material/focus, and EK literally doesn't give a shit about your "I am unarmed!" scenario.

>>54051996
Correct.

Like how disentigrate also kill a wild shaped druid.

This has been SAd.

>>54052066
You remember wrong.

If a feature, spell or effect does things like this, you go to 0 instantly. Sage advice covered this, including confirming that yes, it does work like that, after a turbosperg Lord complained about the ruling.

>>54053841
Hey! Get back here with that goalpost!

>>54069739
Not when you can use your blade pact weapon as a focus.

>>54069950
Which you can't

>>54069741
So then we're in agreement that a wizard can't just use Suggestion to get past the guards, which was basically my original point.

>>54069834
>I jumped into a conversation that I clearly haven't been following
No need to apologize, anon, happens to the best of us.

>>54069883
>When you transform, you assume the beast’s hit points and Hit Dice. When you revert to your normal form, you return to the number of hit points you had before you transformed. However, if you revert as a result of dropping to 0 hit points, any excess damage carries over to your normal form. For example, if you take 10 damage in animal form and have only 1 hit point left, you revert and take 9 damage. As long as the excess damage doesn’t reduce your normal form to 0 hit points, you aren’t knocked Unconscious.
No, I actually remember it 100% correct, what you mention is an addendum that isn't in the manual yet, I totally believe you that they "fixed" it, but again, last time I checked the manual, it wasn't there.

>>54069950
Anon...neither Warlock nor EK can use their weapons as focus. By god, I'm looking at the manual right now and it doesn't say what you are mentioning.

>>54050245
Eh, all of those are dependant on what type of paladin you are. (Assuming 5e)

>>54069995
There are several classes already mentioned which does just fine stark naked. Monk isnt unique.

But nice try being a coy little faggot. You certainly came off like that, too bad it doesn't change the fact that you are wrong.

>>54070030
>Hurr sage advice isn't official
Kill yourself my fine faggot.

>>54069980
>>54070075
Not him, but it's getting that as an option in the next splatbook, IIRC

>>54070106
1. The conversation was mainly about martials, Warlock isn't a martial, you still used warlock
2. We were talking mainly about worst editions, in where you provoke AoO if you attack unarmed (if you aren't a monk) and your defense is shit without armor (if you aren't a monk) so yeah, preparing for an unarmed unarmored combat as a martial is night impossible unless you have time to level and get some feats

That's why "you just jumped into a conversation you clearly hadn't been following".

>>54070116
Could you post where I said that? I said that I didn't play 5e in a long time, that I only remember the manuals, I can't remember what it's said in a blog after I stopped playing, I can remember though what's in the manuals because I have them in pdf, and in the manuals wildshape works as I said. Super nice if they fixed it, but I'm not clairvoyant

>>54068379
The point is that anima has zero qualities he'll find enjoyable on a base system level.

It is like someone who doesnt like slty food being offered a salty treat. He wont like because he doesnt like the underlying mechanic of it being salty.

It wasn't hard point to grasp anon, you might have brain damage.

>>54070495
This, is like that other anon who claimed 4e monks were shitty monks just because he hated 4e. You can't change his oppionion.

>>54070495
Did I bitch about the specific ki/magic/forgot the third powers?

No?

Maybe because my problem is the resolution mechanics being shitty, not what the game is trying to do.

>>54070423
1. Eldritch knight is 5e
2. A lot of the calculations are clearly based on 5e.

Stop being a faggot.

>>54070738
Again with the ad hominem. You were the one bringing the EK and the Warlock, congrats, in 5e some martials don't have much problems (still no armor), that wasn't my conversation though, so what's your point?. Stop entering in conversations stirring shit when you clearly didn't read the whole thing.

>B-but people talked about 5e here and there
Yeah, and about Anima, and?

>>54070848
>Stop entering in conversations stirring shit when you clearly didn't read the whole thing.
This is 4chan though, insults, goalposting, talking when you have no idea, etc is costumary

>>54070882
Yeah, but they should still come along with a good argument to back them up.

>>54070972
If you don't like it don't come here, same as D&D, if you don't like it, don't play it

>>54071014
/tg/ as I know it did not try to justify its bullshit non-arguments.

>>54049812
Let's assume your math is correct. Since 5e isn't straight stat generation but rather roll and arrange to taste, that means that only 1 of the 6 stats rolled need to be high. That means the actual chance of having at least one 17 is 22.5% (or nearly 1 in 4) and the chance for an 18 is 9.33% (or just under 1 in 10). I'd argue that 17s are actually quite common while 18s aren't even that rare.

>>54071129
>Since 5e isn't straight stat generation but rather roll and arrange to taste

That's grandfathered in.

Literally the entire game is built on the assumption of array.

>>54071151
>Literally the entire game is built on the assumption of array.

>>54071193
He's actually not wrong. The game is built on the assumption that PCs are build with 15/14/13/12/10/8 - mostly because this is statistically the most likely set of numbers to get if you roll 4d6 and drop the lowest die six times.

It still doesn't matter that much, though, because a wood elf can still have a 16 Wisdom and 16 Dexterity right at character generation anyway, and a 16 Wisdom is mechanically identical to a 17.

>>54071238
>mostly because this is statistically the most likely set of numbers to get if you roll 4d6 and drop the lowest die six times.
Actually, it isn't.
That would be 16, 14, 13, 12, 10, 9.

>>54071238
>>54071290
Actually, the most likely is 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13.

>>54071151
Goddamn they weren't kidding about the level of turboautism with this OP!

>>54071290 >>54071327
Well, yeah, sure, if you round correctly, but at some point Wizards of the Coast decided that all fractions should always be rounded down.

It's most specifically 15.95, 14.45, 13.23, 12.02, 10.66, 8.72

http://www.darkshire.net/%7Ejhkim/rpg/dnd/abilities.html

>>54071381
>that all fractions should always be rounded down.
Only for PCs though, for monsters they round up

>>54071425
I dislike this immensely. With the burning hate of a thousand suns do I despise this fact.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tnzz-eFmKaw

You can do the unarmed fighter concept pretty well in 3e. Monks aren't bad, you just gotta use some of the jillion ACFs, with appropriate feat choice, multiclassing, and prcing, just like everyone else (except Druid). I remember playing an E6 Gestalt with a Warlock//Monk(/some other shit) and it was seriously like a fighting game. Hilarious, you know, with short range teleports for spacing, projectiles for zoning, growing claws to combo people in the face, and high defenses.

>>54071546
Pretty much all martials are terrible in 3e, and gestalt isn't used often at all and is certainly well outside the core argument.

>>54071546
>Gestalt
Thanks for the insight, but that's like saying "homerules", doesn't help in the slightless to people who is actually playing monks.

In fact you can do that with warlock alone, pick eldritch claws, pick the invocation that gives your +Cha to two of your saves (you can choose which any time). You don't really need Monk at all, and taking into account Gestalt is not a variant rule many people use, well, it just proves you that monk is not very needed for a unarmed fighter.

Similar example, I played a barb in 3.5, Shifter razorclaw (later added longtooth) with bites and claw attacks and pounce and str 50 at 12th level thanks to Shifter/Barb/Warshaper/Weretouched master/Rageclaw, I performed better than any monk could ever do at their field. Monks are bad the only way of making a good "monk" is:
Unarmed swordsage
Monk2/Psywar18
Monk1/Urpriest/Sacred Fist

And that's pretty much it

>>54071670
Well, yeah, it was just something funny I was reminded of. Monk is a bit of a dip class, but people don't really take Barb deep either, and it's a legit class with plenty to offer.

>>54071655
Yeah, but Monks do have a lot to offer if used well. Plenty of builds can fit in a few levels of Monk very strongly.

>>54071467
You dislike it because the OCD or because it's unfair?

How come you haven't shilled Dungeon World yet in this thread, OP? Isn't that what you usually do?

>>54071740
Monsters have always gotten unfair abilities. It's just messing with my brain.

>>54071740
The OCD. I want things to be standardized.

I'm the sort of guy who will have a party of 4th level adventurers encounter an elder red wyrm in the basement of the inn that they were hoping to just fight rats in. "Fair" isn't really in my vocabulary.

Although please note I said "encounter", not "fight".

>>54071955
>>54071985
Standardization kills roleplay.

>>54072688
...rounding fractions consistently on way or another would ruin roleplay?

>>54071072
You've obviously never been on /tg/ before, then, or have suffered some kind of brain damage that's altered your recollection of the past.

>>54071738
Just about the only thing the monks have that the other classes can use is good saves.

File: page1 shitposting.jpg (359KB, 1272x614px) Image search: [Google]

359KB, 1272x614px

>>54046299
Can you at least wait before making another shit thread, you dumb nigger?

>>54075242
And WIS bonus to AC, and a bunch of other stuff. A monk dip is actually pretty great.

>>54075301
Can the mods just stop encouraging these trolls and delete their threads? I mean, I guess it's funny watching everyone destroy them, but enough is enough.