/WMG/ Warmachine and Hordes General

Reposting
Hordes as a whole have no character lights. Did they ever give a reason for this? I'd think that at least Trollbloods would be fitting for some character lights.

>>53746641
One reason could be that an increased point cost on a light warbeast would have to mean they would essentially need to give it heavy warbeast stats and fury value.

>>53746683
>Chiron
Yup.

>SR 2017
>Scenario is dead

FUCK why did they screw up SR so fucking badly? Concession or deathclock is such a shitty way to win. Maybe the occasional assassination.

>>53746641
Belphagor is technically a character light, though it's stapled to Bethayne and is super shitty.

I wish they moved the meld rules to Belphagor and just branched him off into a separate warbeast.

>>53747086
>why did they screw up SR so fucking badly?
Just because it's different doesn't mean it's bad.

You don't play the game though so I don't know why you're bitching

>>53747224

I play the game 2-3 times a week shitlord.

It's not different, it just sucks. They've essentially removed one of the win conditions from the packet.

And that's not just me saying that.

>>53747292
>They've essentially removed one of the win conditions from the packet.
That's the point though. Deal with it and adapt your play style.

If you actually play 2 to 3 games a week it shouldn't be hard. So knows, you might actually have fun

>>53747397
>That's the point though. Deal with it and adapt your play style.

The point of SR 2017 is to remove the scenario win condition? What is this fucking babble?

Death clock wins are never fun.

>>53747897
The point of 17 is to remove control casters getting to just shit all over everyone and winning without really engaging with the opponent.

I'm sorry your version of fun is hated by everyone else, but deal with it.

Somebody TL;DR SR 2017 please.

>>53747897
The point is to remove the race to five and increase attrition and actually playing the game.

No more 'I lock you out of scenario and win on turn 3' games. It means casters like Haley2 can't easily dominate the fans and have to duke it out.

This also means that playing for attrition or assassination is much more valuable than before

Scenario wins are still there but are much harder to achieve

>>53747981
https://cid.privateerpress.com/forum/archive/steamroller-2017/9335-steamroller-2017-rules-week-two

Before going over the changes, we would like to address the concern that SR 2017 scenarios feel less "live" or "harder to win" than in previous iterations. This is the intent. The days of racing to 5 CPs are gone, and have been replaced with a scenario system that instead promotes engagement and resolution.

Engagement: If you don't engage with the scenario, you will lose by it. Whether you give up so much board presence that you lose to the 6+ CP "mercy" rule, or whether round 7 ends and you are behind on CPs, not engaging is the fast track to defeat.

Resolution: Games in SR 2017 are typically won by either assassination, your opponent clocking, or (more commonly) winning the battle of attrition. Our intent is for players to either kill their opponents caster, or weaken their army to such a degree that they lose their board presence and begin to lose on scenario. The turn 7 limit, and the mercy rule, basically mean that once you've beaten your opponent to the point that they cannot meaningfully contest your board presence, your scenario victory is inevitable (unless they pull off an exciting assassination). To state this more directly, our intent is that Steamroller encourages playing the game, not the scenario.

Some scenarios are easier to score on than others, requiring more engagement and rapid reaction, while others are much slower. In our opinion the scenarios are ranked as follows left to right, easiest to hardest scoring: Spread the Net, Standoff, The Pit II, Outlast, Breakdown, and finally Recon

>>53748007
BUT ANNON I HATE PLAYING THE GAME! PLAYING THE GAME IS BORING!
I LOVE RACING TO 3!

In all seriousness, I love this change. It with the better terrain rules will no longer make victory kinda shitty and bleh.

>>53748150
>with the better terrain rules
I might be the only one, but this really confused me. I've pretty much always set up my tables this way. 8 pieces, LOS blocking in the middle, stuff in zones, etc.

There is functionally no difference between SR16 and 17 for me in regards to terrain except clouds and burning earth are now actually relevant.

How were you guys setting up your tables before?

>>53748284
I set up them in a similar way, but most people who set up tables are AGGRESSIVELY lazy and HATE central line of sight blocking terrain.

They would leave it fucking BLANK if they could.

>>53748007
>The point is to remove the race to five
And good riddance. I feel like they overshot though. In fact, having played (and more recently watched) quite the sizable amount of SR17 games I don't just feel like that, I have actually seen it.

>>53748539
Which I believe if is witnessed enough will attain further adjustments.

Maybe lowering the amount of turns or points by like 1 or 2.

>>53748569
I hope so too. I think 6 turns and 5-more to win should be tested. So one less each.

>>53748569
I mean, random turn length handily solved this issue, but people threw a bitchfit about it.

>>53747086
I really don't get the "scenario is dead" meme.

The Scenario has been live in the majority of SR17 games I've played, and I've won several either on scenario or assassination caused by desperation to not lose on scenario.

Admittedly, locally we tend to only play the first four scenarios in the packet, as the last two are pretty goddamn dead, but for most of them... scenario is playable, and the rush to 5 is dead, and, honestly, fuck the rush to 5.

>>53748821
Scenario is far from dead. However, stalling is currently a bit too valid for my taste.

>>53747980
>>53748007

So since control casters would race to 5, let's just say you have to score 6 more than your opponent?

Are you guys under the age of 20? If you are, no biggy I"ll just jump out. If you're not, do you have any powers of reason?

And FYI, I didn't play control casters of any variety...ever.

>I'm sorry your version of fun is hated by everyone else, but deal with it.

Just drop that shit. That's like saying "If you don't like, it move on". You idiots keep spouting that shit to players enough, they will and your game will be deader than it is.

I'm sorry you are so emotionally invested you can't see that.

>>53748284
That's how I usually set them up in SR16, too. I love that SR17 now says codifies a lot of it. I love 8 terrain pieces per game, too.

>>53748539

There's a reasonable anon that isn't an autist shit lord like the guys above.

If the best PP can do to fix the lock out casters winning in 3 is to just completely remove scenario from the packet...well that's insulting to PP.

Deathclock wins fucking suck.

>>53748956
Alright, why are you here? Are you then not also emotionally invested?

I never said that your enjoyment wasn't wrong. But to me it was pretty against what I liked in the game.

This sadly probably comes down to just personal preference as opposed to some grand universal truth about a better game.

>>53748956
You seem the one to be emotionally invested in the game only being able to be won in a specific way.

The win conditions of the game have shifted, figure it out. You're doing nothing but screaming about what other people have said in regards to 17 without having actually played it. You can still win on scenario, you just need to win on attrition first.

The change has made the game more interactive overall, with players having to engage with each other more to actually pull out a win. How is that possibly a bad thing?

>>53748910
Eh, I don't see it as much of a problem Hard attrition is a thing, and I'm fine with it.

My biggest complaint with SR17 (other than the wild difference in quality of boards -- Standoff is my favorite Steamroller scenario ever, and Spread The Net is better than any pre-SR17 scenario, imo, while the rest need to be fixed) is that win-by-6 is bad about letting games drag on. Win-by-5 I think would be better. My current thought for how to do it better is "Win by 3 at the start of your turn".

(Of course, you might have meant what I'm talking about as "games dragging on" in saying "stalling", in which case I like the cut of your jib)

>>53749050
>Eh, I don't see it as much of a problem
What I've been observing in particular is that I've been able to just abandon most of the scenario for a turn or two without being punished for it. Also, getting 7 turns in 60 minutes is an issue in some matchups.

I've probably been observing it more than most as I play a list that can stall with the best, but the issue is definitely there. How apparent it is depends on your meta.

>>53749014
>>53749026

See
>>53749050

It's not that I believe scenario is the 'only' way to win. The most enjoyable way to win (at least for me) is an assassination, as it's the most exciting.

I think one thing we can ALL agree on though is that deathclock wins are the least satisfying way to win for both players. I really cannot imagine someone that enjoys watching someone run out of time after 2ish hours of intense gaming. How is that fun?

Of course, it's not. It's just necessary. So any change to SR that increases deathclock wins and practically removes scenario is a bad change. Period.

And I'm not emotionally invested. I do get sick of anytime someone criticizes PP, they get one of two idiotic answers;

Git gud
Go fuck off

Is this just the Warmachine community? Is it that poisonous? Because if it is, and people keep telling people to fuck off, guess what? You won't have much of anyone in these threads but the same 5 anons spoofing each other and arguing over shit they probably haven't even played.

And my problem with scenario is not in a vacuum. Many of the top players have outright voiced the same complaint, so this isn't some kind of basement silo effect.

>>53749219
>ALL agree on though is that deathclock wins are the least satisfying way to win for both players

I played Lucant in Mk2.

>>53749243
Oh I remember "Lucan't have fun". Kind of makes me nostalgic.

>>53749302
Secondary benefit of going for clock wins: If it's round 4 or 5, then the dude is fucking exhausted is going to make more mistakes as the game goes on.

>>53746641
For some strange reason every time PP tries to make a character light ot magically transforms into an overpriced heavy.
>mfw PP did it twice in legion.

>>53749219
>I think one thing we can ALL agree on though is that deathclock wins are the least satisfying way to win for both players.
You honestly shouldn't be winning/losing on clock. If you are thats a problem with the player clocking out and they need to get better with their activations

>>53749219
>I do get sick of anytime someone criticizes PP, they get one of two idiotic answers;
>Git gud
>Go fuck off
Well when all you do is bitch and moan thread after thread after thread what do you expect? Complaining solves nothing and accomplishes nothing.

That leaves you with a few options. Adapt your play style and figure out how to solve the problem line others have done. Stew in your negativity and try and drag everyone else down. Or finally, fuck off.

Which of those three options sounds better to you? Personally I prefer to tackle problems and solve them. You can do this while admitting there are issues with aspects of the game and still have fun.

You decide what you want to do but if you go with option two and decide to just bitch don't be surprised when people tell you to fuck off

Gonna get the 2 player battle box (cygnar/cryx), won't have the money afterwards to buy both all-in-one army boxes but I still want to expand both factions at about the same rate. any advice?

>>53749219
>And I'm not emotionally invested. I do get sick of anytime someone criticizes PP, they get one of two idiotic answers;
>Git gud
>Go fuck off
>Is this just the Warmachine community? Is it that poisonous?

It's about tone really. The warmachine community is pretty toxic, but in my opinion its way less toxic than before.

On a "Person by Person" basis my community is filled with chill relaxed awesome dudes, and I make sure to go slow, fun, and chill with any new player, and tell them every rule and interaction in detail so they never experience a "HA GOTCHA YOU FUCKER" moment.

I agree that deathclock sucks. Its the worst part. But I kinda hate tournaments and playing under a clock altogether.

Overall if PP notices that its shitty in the longterm they will change it back...But that bugs me: Do you find the game impossible to win under 2 hours without a Scenario? That's never been my experience (The times I have played it).

>>53749606
What do you like in each faction? We can start there and give suggestions from there.

>>53749610
Local communities are usually pretty awesome.

The online community is toxic shit hole. It's now spread out a bit though instead of being concentrated in forums

>>53749628
couldn't care less about the lightning shtick for cygnar but I like shooty things. as for cryx, blasting things with lots of arced sounds fun.

>>53749610
>Do you find the game impossible to win under 2 hours without a Scenario?
Not impossible. But if a player goes for "you need to kill these 100p of models before you can score fast enough to go ahead by 6" time definitely becomes an issue.

I also feel that it goes a bit against the "the game is not over before it's over" quality I always liked about WMH, where even if the attrition is going badly, you can still get an out via Scenario/Assassination if your opponent screws up. My most memorable games have ended this way, most of them to my loss. A victory snatched from the jaws of defeat is just the most exciting way for a game to end. And SR16 scenario was a way of achieving that.

>>53749724
>A victory snatched from the jaws of defeat is just the most exciting way for a game to end. And SR16 scenario was a way of achieving that.

To me scenario kinda felt superficial to me. I can't say I never won due to scenario. But It never really felt satisfactory to me because of how....Metagamey...It felt?

But I still love assasination and your right about how exhilarating it feels:

I just recently had Irusk 2 be left with nothing but the dog and assasinate Butcher 1 over a period of 2 turns.

Maybe scenario could feel more organic if it was designed in a more...plotty? Way. But would be probably even more difficult to balance.

Anyway don't take the toxic online presense personally. This IS also a chan: Your mostly gonna hear "Get Guds" and "Dead Game". Im sure both sides feed off each other in a way.

>>53749695
Well Cygnar is soon going to have a massive update with Trenchers (Their WWII Based Infantry). Its pretty shooty and comes in many different flavors.

Cryx...Well Cryxes Ranged game isn't the best. But not the worst. Im not sure I know more then that.

>>53749921
Alright, I'll grab a few of those guys and the grenade jack for cygnar. for cryx, are mechanithralls something people still use or should I just stick to buffing up the bane game?

>>53749577
>Adapt your play style and figure out how to solve the problem line others have done

Yeah but they haven't.

>>53750014
Both the Mechanithralls and the Banes were majorly buffed in a CID (Community Integrated Development). I don't know when that errata comes into effect but point is I think it can go either or. Or both.

>>53749894
Oh I'm not that guy. While I don't like the average tone in this thread it's just something I learned to live with.

Scenario could really be more thematic, but I'm not sure how you'd do it without impacting balance too much. And for a competitive scenario package balance should be more important than style.

But like i said, scenario can be a lot of fun. My most fun game recently was one where I was way ahead on attrition and my opponent managed to managed to squeeze out a scenario victory with ~2 minutes on the clock and 2 models left. Caught me way off guard.

>>53750239
>And for a competitive scenario package balance should be more important than style.

I'd like that too, but too many competitive players warp the whole environment overall. They have no problem with "HA get dug fag" victories and hate anything that's not just preparation for the next tournament.

Again Il sees how this plays out in practice. At the moment the opinion on it is pretty split.

New to WMH, just staring with Protectorate.

Flameguard are the Protectorate's equivalent to Trencher/Winter Guard/M. Thralls right?

Will we get a Flameguard theme booka nd will they have access to Weapon teams or some sort?

Winning on scenario is basically the gayest way to win in the whole game. Oh, I stood in a spot for 2 turns. Nothing comes off the board. No dice are rolled. I just moved there so I win. So fucking gay it blows my mind its even still in the game.

>>53750219
I'll probably stick to banes then just so I don't need to buy large amounts for when the heavy recursion would come online then.
otherwise, is there any "must have" warjacks or warcasters for either faction I should look at

>>53750430
Desecrators Synergize with dem Banes. And again in the errata, it becomes even better and even more synergetic.

Its also pretty blasty!

>>53750420
Probably. A flame guard book is pretty much guaranteed. Not sure about weapon crews as that's more of a "Zealot" thing. But who knows?

>>53750360
>but too many competitive players warp the whole environment overall. They have no problem with "HA get dug fag" victories and hate anything that's not just preparation for the next tournament
That's a difficult topic and in fact one I cannot comment on too much as we don't have that issue around here. I think the key to solving it is to clear up intent. Make it clear what kind of game you are looking for. If I know my opponent wants to prep for a tournament I'll drop my tournament pairing into him. But if I'm up against a newer player or someone who's just looking to play some B tier caster I'll brew up some jank on the spot.

>>53750425
Well that only happens when you don't contest. Admittedly, scenario rush via hard control is lame, but that is not really a point many people would object to.

>>53750550
Balancing Timed vs Untimed is complicated. I don't like competitive or non-competitive because that implies that game balance somehow "Ruins the game" or playing for fun means busting out shit that's not made well.

I'm hopeful that things will work out in the future and a happy medium will be reached. This CID, for instance, is way better than the last one (Soles is barely present) and much faster.

PP really wants people to play their games and buy ALL their models.

>>53750153
You speak for the whole community? Wow, that's impressive

>>53750360
>>53750239
If you want more thematic scenarios that aren't really competitive check out NQ and the regular leagues. They print tons of thematic casual stuff all year.

>>53750749
Oh, that stuff is great. I wish I could find more willing participants who aren't scared of trying new things.

Precious "Final Destination only" players.

>>53749577
>Complaining solves nothing and accomplishes nothing
Except that it got an entire faction a well needed errata.

>>53750816
Well I think it's important to have strategic complaints.

"WAAA YOU SUCK" Solves nothing.

"You stepped on my toe" Actually works towards the problem. Plus I guess people here are real tired of "Ded Gayme!"

>>53750882
"Some theme lists are much better than others", "Some factions are much stronger than others", "The competitive scene is being dominated by a small pool of things, "Some factions get zero attention while others are lavished". These are common comments, yet nothing comes from those either. PP just doesn't care about the longterm health of their game, it's pretty obvious at this point.

>>53750816
Yeah no, bitching didn't do that. It helped, but providing actual results and feedback got Skorne updated. That errata was well under way long before the bitching reached mail in campaign levels of stupid.

PP pretty much disregards all of the 'this is unplayable trash' feedback they get

>>53750954
So I guess if you want to be super negative about it that is one way to look at it. The other is that they have been consistently updating the game and bringing up under played models (Banes, Skorne, Battle Engines, etc).

What do you expect them to do? Just update everything over night and hope for the best? Have you ever worked in any kind of game development? This shot takes time

>>53750987

Nah dude, outrage brought attention to the matter. If they had posts that were occasional "I think something might be wrong with Skorne because of X-Y-Z", I doubt it would have gotten an errata.

My proof is the balancing of anything OP...ever. Gaspy took hits after people PP knew threw online bitch fits about it (hacksaw). Hayley the same.

PP is ran by a bunch of kids for the most part.

>>53751021
>This shot takes time

3 years worth?

>>53750954
>PP just doesn't care about the longterm health of their game, it's pretty obvious at this point.

Yes. They are also the ones that sneak into your house and hide your other sock. They also kick puppies in their spare time and steal children on Behalf of Koshie the Deathless whilst using trained geese.

>>53751021
>What do you expect them to do?
Their fucking jobs and balance their piss take of a game. How can you say with any degree of sincerity that PP are trying to balance their game? They haven't done jack fucking shit son. The Skorne errata did very little to help the faction, Banes are like 3 units in one faction that's doing fine as it stands anyway, battle engines can be argued as the only thing they've done to actually balance their game as a whole through CID.

But I'm sure the game really needed another fucking faction.

>>53751155
PP said they were going to do a balance update for the game every 6 months. The next should be out this month. If it was going to be, it would already be on CID. Meaning PP have abandoned balancing their game.

>>53751180
>PP said they were going to do a balance update for the game every 6 months. The next should be out this month.
Next month. Probably after L+L.

>>53751207
The first was in December, with the Skorne errata being the exception due to the size of it. Regardless, every 6 months simply isn't enough. Don't they do internal playtesting? Can't they just look at a model and see it can't do its job properly?

>>53751227
Es the Jan one was released early. But what does anything I say matter? You're in the state where nothing I say, nothing PP does will change your mind of WMH being the worst ever. So why are you still bothering?

>>53751249
>nothing PP does will change your mind
A balance update would. No, Banes do not count. No, being thrown a bone once every 6 months does not count. They're literally releasing an entire faction and giving Cygnar a new sub-faction before their second balance update.

>>53751180
>Their fucking jobs and balance their piss take of a game
Have you been paying attention to CID? Do you understand that play testing takes time?

They literally are balancing their game, but it takes time dude. Chill the fuck out. It's a game, relax, have fun. It's not worth getting this bent out of shape over
>>53751060
>3 years worth?
You're joking, but this isn't totally off.

Think about one unit that you want to tweak. Any unit or solo, doesn't matter.

OK, now any changes you make need to balanced against everything in the faction and everything coming out for the faction in the future. Now balance it against every Merc option available. Now balance that against every option it will see across the table.

Now do that for every unit and solo that people want updated that's currently out and do it for all the new shit that's coming and see how much you get done in a work day.

Now think about the time it took for a single unit or solo and double it for a Warcaster or Warlock.

If you do that, and you're actually honest with yourself about it, you might get an idea for why it takes awhile for updates.

>>53751328
>A balance update would.
Well it's out next month. So you can shut up now.

>>53751354
[Citation required]

Considering the amount of shit PP says they're going to do but don't do, I have zero faith in this.

>>53751328
They've had two errata, three if you count Skorne separately, a dynamic update, and five CID cycles in the last year

>>53751366
The fuck off and play something else. We'll both be happier for it.

>>53751366
Examples? Just admit it, you're a salty cunt and nothing they do will possibly make you happy.

>>53751350
>You're joking, but this isn't totally off.

No anon, you missed the joke.

PP stated they balanced the game for 3 years before releasing Mk 3. That's literally the joke.

>>53751398
I get it, but they litterally took three plus years. You can read their design notes and they go back that far

The game needed another year of testing but they did actually develop mk3 for three years.

>>53751387

>The Warmachine Community ladies and gentlemen

>>53751429
>litterally

If the initial launch of Mk 3 was after 3 years of development, then I'm sorry to say they fucking suck. Because it took experienced players about 5 minutes looking over leaks to see breaks that were blatant, over the top silly shit.

It was so bad, there were good players arguing it couldn't be the real release because of the rules.

>>53751433
We're sick of your shit. If you don't like it stop being a cunt in every thread

>>53751396
I'm a salty cunt BECAUSE they're doing nothing that makes me happy.

>>53751433
Yes. Indeed. We are quite sick of your kind. Shit or get of the pot. Or in other words, play the game of fuck off some place else.

>>53751461
See >>53751350
>Think about one unit that you want to tweak. Any unit or solo, doesn't matter.
>OK, now any changes you make need to balanced against everything in the faction and everything coming out for the faction in the future. Now balance it against every Merc option available. Now balance that against every option it will see across the table.
>Now do that for every unit and solo that people want updated that's currently out and do it for all the new shit that's coming and see how much you get done in a work day.
>Now think about the time it took for a single unit or solo and double it for a Warcaster or Warlock.
>If you do that, and you're actually honest with yourself about it, you might get an idea for why it takes awhile for updates.

Some stuff sucks, it's not perfect, and honestly the game probably needed another year of development. I don't think anyone denies that if they're being honest

If you are being honest though, and actually play the game, you know that the code rules are better than last edition and more models are actually viable on the table despite some being less viable than previously.

You also have to admit that the theoretical distance between the top factions and the bottom ones is smaller than mk2 ever was. It still sucks to be the worst faction but it sucks less than it did previously

>>53751483
But here is a dark truth annon: you are not the center of the universe annon.

And the moves that pp are making make allot of people happy. Cryx problems you casually dismissed where like 1/2 of faction identity that wasnt working.

Im sad that your not happy, but pp are actively trying to make stuff better. But because its not in the way you want, your all pissy over it

>>53751483
So what do you want then? How many updates will take to get you to stop complaining like a whiney bitch?

They've done a ton of updates for the game. Are you just salty because they haven't made your personal favorite toy the best in the game? Get over yourself dude

>>53751527
The idea that models need to be consciously balanced and weighed against every other model in the game is completely retarded and is just an excuse. Just look at a model, ask what it's meant to do, and nudge a number or two to help it do that. That is LITERALLY all they did in the Skorne errata which everyone praised. Keltarii want to tie things up? +1SPD. Swordsmen want to actually hit things for once and do damage? +1MAT and Power Swell. Bronzeback wants to punch things? +1FURY. Master Tormentor fails to actually kill things too often? Weaponmaster.

It's actually really fucking easy to do. There's no model in this game that would become broken if a stat was nudged, but there's an awful lot that could become playable.

>>53751634
>The idea that models need to be consciously balanced and weighed against every other model in the game is completely retarded and is just an excuse. Just look at a model, ask what it's meant to do, and nudge a number or two to help it do that. That is LITERALLY all they did in the Skorne errata
You have literally no idea what you're talking about.

This kind of approach works in Warhammer and other casual games, it doesn't work in games like Warmachine

>>53751716
>Don't give that shitty unit +1MAT, you'll break the gaaaaaame
Bitch please shut the fuck up.

>>53751790
And this is why the online community sucks right now. Shitty people like you that refuse to accept answers

Just leave if you're going to be like this. I'd rather have a dead game than insufferable shitlords like you around

>>53751824
>And this is why the online community sucks right now. Shitty people like you that refuse to accept answers
Do you not see the irony in your statement?

>>53751858
I feel like there's a difference between one person trying to offer helpful answers and another just shouting 'bitch please shut the fuck up' when they're presented with an answer they don't like

Jack heavy cryx armies. yay or nay?

>>53751895
The entire Skorne errata was quite literally PP doing exactly as I said. It's all they've ever done. To say that they put Mk3.0 Skorne aside all other factions as you suggested they do and said "yeah, this seems good" is ridiculous. First and foremost a model must do its job within the confines of its faction. Otherwise faction identity goes out the window because you're making sure every faction's X is about as good in a vacuum as every other faction's X.

>>53751790
Alright smart guy, let's play a game.

Pick something in the game and figure out a buff for it. You have to adjust it in some way that doesn't invalidate anything currently in faction, the model still has to perform its role, and you have to stay within the design intentions of the faction and mk3 in general.

Do that and I'll tell you why you're a moron

>>53751987
You really think they just sat in a room and bumped random stats for six months and did zero testing for the Skorne errata? Really?

I know /WMHG/ regulars aren't the brightest bulbs in the community but that's a pretty impressively stupid comment.

Wait what? Is the argument that changing a faction after the methodologies and meta's of the entire game have had time to fully develop is the exact same as reworking the entire fucking game?

Also what defines as "Nudging". Cygnarians like "Nudging". After the removal of AD from the Hunter some demand for nudging for Marksman on the Hunter. Seems fair right?

>>53752173
The argument is that "Skorne are BAD and I want +2 MAT +1 SPD NOW, REEEEEE" isn't a rational argument.

>>53752059
+1ARM to Exemplar Bastions.

>>53752298

Didn't they take 2 MAT from all of the Skorne Titans?

>>53752298
Yes, that's my point. Even if something is bad "Nudging" based off of one guys request is a stupidly subjective thing.

As I pointed out not all "Nudging" is equal.

>>53752398
They took them all down to DEF10. The played ones were DEF12.

>>53752398
Nope. It was 2 Defense. Now sadly only making them comparable to similar Stats, as opposed to being pretty vastly superior to most of them.

>>53752439
You mean vastly inferior owing to how slow they are. Blackhide Wrasslers are 12/19 and no one complains about them.

>>53752059
Still no answer to +1ARM to Bastions? Sorry did I break the game so you aren't bothering replying? Or did you think I was going to suggest over the top buffs?

>>53752472
Actually, in survival odds it's actually better than Trolls and Cygnarians and all the Circle Beasts and all the Cryx Jacks. Your on par with Menoth.

But if its not literally the best odds, then its VASTLY SUB PAR!

But odds and statistics are HARD, and complaining is easy.

>>53752600
Actually, +1 Arm isn't what people find the most frustrating and actually wouldn't make much of a difference.

>>53752621
Menoth jacks have access to Enliven, have more boxes, can't be shot, and can't be debuffed. But please go on and tell me about the cool defense tech Skorne has that's just as good. 7 points for a Krea is just as good as your cheaper Beast Handler equivalent just flat out stopping almost all shooting in the game.

>>53752600
>+1ARM to Bastions
That wouldn't break the game, but it also wouldn't fix Bastions.

>>53752710
Menoth Jacks just don't do that on their own, but you knew this when you were building that strawman.

>>53752710
>Menoth jacks have access to Enliven, have more boxes, can't be shot, and can't be debuffed.

I'm not saying that shit ain't tight but this is fucking petty whining.

>>53752633
>>53752733
O' ye of thirty and three, you seem to entirely missed my point about PP making small changes to help models do their job better. +1ARM on Bastions would help them do their intended job better, no? Whether it would outright fix the unit is irrelevant, as the next safe small buff may just do that. This is exactly the process that turned DotA into one of the most balanced and popular games in the world.

>>53752710
The Menoth Jack doesn't have free charges, doesn't hand out a free spell to it's controller, gets permanently crippled by damage and does less damage in combat.

Get the fuck out of my game, nerd. Play 40k or whatever, just leave.

>>53752787
>>53752764
>Poster makes comment about Titans being as survivable as Menoth jacks
>Gets solid counter evidence thrown at him
>Instant damage control from multiple angles

>>53752423

It isn't really noticeable under normal circumstances. Right about now the only thing that trips it for people is Mordikaar feat, where poltergeist (get pushed directly away from a model if you attack and miss it) and +DEF is supposed to mean that a multiple attack buying warnoun doesn't get to use its full offensive potential against a single target. Except not for Titans fighting warjacks.

Krea does ARM now, and Skorne players were kind of expecting Titans to get hit in melee under normal circumstances anyway (reason people play the Agonizer). You just had Mordikaar get played by vaguely competitive skornes more times in the last week than in the last year with the announcement of ADR though, so minor seasonal shitstorm.

>>53752837
A MAT7 heavy swinging on DEF12 can expect to miss 1 in 6 attacks. That is VERY relevant.

>>53752806
>O' ye of thirty and three, you seem to entirely missed my point about PP making small changes to help models do their job better.

"Small changes can fix the game! Its easy!"
"List one"
"+1 Arm!"
"Wouldn't help"
"Man you guys are so stupid!"

You made a point that small stat based changes are super easy and would fix shit quickly. We pointed out how it wouldn't and once you get into larger stat changes thats when it gets complicated, but you brushed that off.

Some Cygnar Players want Mage Hunters to get +1 To Defense. Should they get it?

DotA is also a fucking cooldown based videogame you twit.

>>53752806
Yeah they could aimlessly fiddle with single stats. Or they could put in time and effort to design a real fix for underused models. Which they are doing. But as mentioned, that takes time.

So once again: If you are so very offended at that, why not just fuck off?

>>53752834
But they LITERALLY ARE!

The argument wasn't about faction support, but about survival probability!

Fucking Skornefags! Until the get the moon on a stick, the WHINGING will never stop.

>>53752883
There is no reason to believe underused models will receive any fixes considering most didn't get anything at all in the last two errata batches. It's been like a year dude. That is not an acceptable amount of time to fix a bad model.

>>53752907
Well they have more boxes so even in a vacuum you're dead fucking wrong.

>>53752834
What would make an Elephant lover such as yourself happy? Please be specific, and not just screeching "FIX IT NOW ME MAD REEEEE!!!!'

>>53752944
+1DEF.

>>53752921
Except it's happening right fucking now with CID. Or are Kraye, Banes (and associated models) and Battle Engines not underused enough for you?

I repeat: Just fuck off and shitpost in another thread. Or even better: Pick up a game you'll enjoy. Oh wait, you can't.

Please does anyone have any more information on that Company of Iron skirmish ruleset they mentioned in the last thread? I'm dying to get as much info on that asap, October is too fuckin far away

>>53752971
>THEY'RE FIXING ONE CASTER IN ONE FACTION LOOK
I'm swallowing the bait and coming back for seconds at this point.

>>53751467
>>53751505

I have every much right to complain about the game as you have to stick your nose up PPs ass :^)

>>53753011
You're free to post whatever you like in fact. And we're free to call out your incessant whining and call you a fucking faggot for it. Nobody wants you here, just like in real life. So take a hint and fuck off.

>>53752971

What's hilarious is you think it's one poster but it's not. Only 1/3 of the posts that you are going all rage machine about are actually me.

Yet, 100% of the PP dick sucking seems to be you. Huh.

>>53752940
I said comparable you miserable fuckwit. The odds are still better than about 2/3rds of all the factions in the game.

>>53753030
>you a fucking faggot

Hey don't use homophobic language.

And you sound max triggered :^)

>>53753044
Yes, mister miracle mind reader. Your truly the only genius here.

I listed my evidence, Im done here.

>>53753059
You clearly have no idea how valuable the extra 2 boxes on Menoth jacks are. Rolling 7s, a Juggernaut will exactly kill a Titan Gladiator. A Crusader will survive.

>>53751207
Are you sure? There's a thread on the Menoth fb group about it and the consensus is PP dropped the 6 month errata cycles in favor of CiD. PP hasn't responded when asked.

>>53753078
>Im done here.

You've been done awhile ^^

Seriously, not that original guy but you need to unplug

>>53753119
The difference in survivability is 12%. I know exactly how valuable they are.

Still More Survivable then Trolls, Cygnar, Cryx, Legion, Circle, Most of Minions (Sans the Blackhide Wrastler).

Get over yourself.

>>53753303
But the Titan Gladiator SHOULD be just as tough as a shitty Menoth Jack! But PP has this massive hate for Skorne and always have. We are the Menoth of Hoards but have always been second best. Fuck You.

>>53753303
That number is so fresh out of your ass that it's still covered in peanuts.

>>53753303
that just means that troll shit is shit. Legion and Circle can be forgiven for being fragile.

>>53752397
>>53752600
Nope got busy.

Looking at +1 arm... What does this accomplish? You're not actually solving the problem bastions have, survivability.

The plus 1 didn't put them over the curve to survive small arms fire and this change has the consequence of needing to bid the arm on the solo and Cinerators since they're all the same unit type and share stats.

That would require further testing and still doesn't solve the problem of survivability on any of these models.

>>53747086
Scenario's not really dead in SR2017, it's just not the auto loss because Haley2 won the dice roll.

>>53753688
>+1ARM doesn't make a model more likely to survive
I'm done.

>>53753688
Oh and incase you didn't know, other factions have stat differences between models in the same caste. You know, because models within the same caste have different roles?

>>53754030
Do you know how dice math works and what the current stats of Bastions are and the pow of guns? +1 arm doesn't help them.

Ask yourself how many boosted pow 12s it takes to kill a Cinerator and then you'll realize why bumping their arm doesn't fix them.

>>53754053
OK, that's nice but Bastions and Cinerators aren't an example of that? They have the same stats with the exception of ARM because cinerators have shields.

Models on the same 'chassis' tend to share stats and if you bump one you need to have a good reason not to bump the others.

This is one of the core details of the game when it comes to model stats

Now, you can argue that this is stupid, or lazy, or whatever but this is the system we have and its what we have to work with

Does anyone have a link for NQ-72 or Retribution Command yet?

>>53754030
All you've really done is changed the number of pow 12s to kill them from 4.16666~ to 5. That's not really relevant in any meaningful way.

The change you want to advocate for is going from 5 boxes to 8 but that opens a whole other giant can of worms that just goes to further prove the point that this stuff takes time to test.

anyone know where to get blighted nys stats?

>>53755354

for ikrpg

>>53755354
>>53755378
I believe it uses the basic Nyss stats, and then applies blight from Chasing the Dragon Part One, from No Quarter #60. #61 includes Strider and Blighted Ogrun stats. There are careers scattered through the 5-part series, from NQ 60-64

>>53755508

ok just wanted to check this chucklefuck was saying he made a 25 exp blighted nyss priest with 5 fury and 6 spells along with field marshal sprint

>>53755564

You can't make a blighted priest. Priest of Nyssor and Blight are mutually exclusive.

>>53755591

hence me calling him a chucklefuck

>>53755564

It's TECHNICALLY possible but improbable. Blighted Nyss get a single roll on the table of shiny things per 25 exp. It's a 3d6 table and 18 gives you +1 Arc/+1 Max Arc.

Even THEN it can't be done until he's at 33 exp as while he can get 5 fury at 25 he doesn't get another ability (And thus field marshal: sprint) until 33 exp.

And to directly quote from No Quarter 60.

>A Priest of Nyssor character who becomes a Legion Warlock loses her previous spells and cannot learn new Priest of Nyssor spells.

>>53755695

yeah there's no way it's legit. he's also got blood boon and hyper regen...

>>53755695

You just know Vayl threw a bitch-fit when she found that out empirically. Fucking munchkin.

>>53755742

>Hyper Regen

HAHAHAHAHAH, NOPE

That is not even on the fucking list for them! They get Regen (And it's on the same table so that's 50 exp at this point) but that's 1d3 an hour, not a round.

They also just flat cannot get Blood Boon as far as I can tell.

>>53755824

yup it's bull shit

Retribution Command when?

>>53756877
never ever :^)

>>53756877
Every thing is already in War Room

>>53757997
>melee light infantry that mulch light infantry... and nothing else
>melee Tough slow infantry that trade a chunk of hitting power for not-really-all-that-better survivability
Can't wait for the theme lists to make these guys worth taking over Sentinels :^)
>inb4 list that gives 10 free points for spamming Sentinels instead

>>53758524
It's ok to play subpar stuff sometimes.

You know, occasionally play for fun

>>53758832
At least the Ryssovass have gorgeous models. Also, katana.

So kallus 1 is shit nowadays, right?

I'm REALLY interested in starting a Legion of Everblight army because I love the look of the Archangel, the Nephilim, Legionnaires and Kallus.

>>53758524
Ellowuyr Swordsmen are already good in certain lists.

Kaelyssa can make them nigh impossible to hit, for example.

>>53758524
If Ghost Fleet is the meta, I would rather have a DEF 15 unit with Cleave than Sentinels?

Durr much?

>>53759865
If Ghost Fleet is in the meta, infantry won't do much. You can't trade with pirates no matter what your statline.

>>53761137
Kill all the pirates = no recursion

wow, really hard.

>>53761137

Sure you can.

>>53761216
Oh god it's so simple why didn't anyone realise this before.

>>53761216
So you don't actually play this game? Nice to know. That only works if your opponent is 100% braindead.

>>53761257

Yeah, that only if you have some kind of deep RFP mechanism or a lot of deep threat, but grinding out Ghost Fleet is a thing if your stats are good enough in comparison, the numbers are there, and you don't clock.

>>53761325
Most things in this game don't have deep RFP, and nothing in this game can grind against it. Your stats literally do not matter when Denny turns anything into a pile of shit.

>>53761447

You're wrong on the internet again, anon.

>>53761245
They did. Which is why Ghost Fleet never won anything before this month.

>>53761325
>and you don't clock.

And there's the issue with Ghost Fleet. Watched a b report with Banky where they both had 10/11 control points and clocked.

>>53761325
Without that RfP you might aswell not bother. Unless your opponent sucks at positioning. In which case you will win any matchup ever.

>>53761887

There are lists that can put a ranged attack blast damage roll, or lighting bounce on anything on the table. There's enough players out there that remember their mk2 anti-Axis learning curve that this is... ok-ish?

>>53761936
>There's enough players out there that remember their mk2 anti-Axis learning curve that this is... ok-ish?
You mean the learning curve of "kill the foundries or Axis"? Because it's the same here: "RfP the leaders or kill Denny".

>>53762063
RIP Cygnar then.

>>53761839
If you're clocking out the only answer to actually get better at the game. There's no reason you shouldn't be able to win a game in an hour

>>53762351
>If you're clocking out the only answer to actually get better at the game. There's no reason you shouldn't be able to win a game in an hour

That's idiotic. Many top level players clock against attrition style lists.

Hell the first IG was a deathclock win by Jay against Jason W. and Jay only had a few minutes left too. This was when it was first to 5 and neither had recursive lists.

Suppose they should just 'git gud'?

>>53762503
If you actually talk to those players they will tell you yes. If you're clocking out you've made multiple mistakes on one or more levels and it's cost you the game

This is going to especially be true in Sr2017

>>53762658

...Or you're playing a list that requires infantry to function, the enemy didn't cooperate with your glorious victory procession, and something happened on the way to the turn limit.

>>53762837
Sounds like you made a mistake in list selection/creation then

>>53759609
Def 18 vs ranged is pretty cute, but is it really worth losing WM and being made of paper in melee?

>>53762658
>>53763242

I not only talk with those players, I play with those players.

Deathclock in 2017 is a thing, you're talking out your ass.

>>53763242
Moving one unit and 5 jacks takes less time than moving 5 units and 4 jacks does.

That's not a matter of opinion, my little hero.

>>53763577
>Deathclock in 2017 is a thing

It makes sense as a continuing purge of Infantrymachine. Players that haven't sat down and crunched the numbers on just how are they are supposed to play their model-heavy list to completion (drop activations if needed, don't do anything interesting with some of your your infantry- ironically the maligned "push infantry models forward, roll dice and win" playstyle) may not even be able to see the issue.

>>53763678

Say you had a guy that ran a lot of infantry- but what he was good at was *positioning* them throughout the game to control the table. He's SOL.

>>53763678
>Players that haven't sat down and crunched the numbers on just how are they are supposed to play their model-heavy list to completion


lol, now I know you're talking out your ass.

Guess what buddy. The guys that run infantry heavy lists well usually aren't the ones that clock.

The guy trying to clear 50 troops from the board and win on scenario while not exposing pieces, that's the guy that clocks.

>>53763780

Confirmed fail for reading comprehension.

>>53763780
>(drop activations if needed, don't do anything interesting with some of your your infantry- ironically the maligned "push infantry models forward, roll dice and win" playstyle)

The omitted quote that turns your post from "I win" to "I'm a retard".

>>53763619
Then you need to get better at running all of those units anon. Don't play the list if you can't do it all in a 10 min turn

>>53763577
Sure ya do anon, we believe you

Regardless of who plays in your pretend meta there is no reason to click yourself in any game of Warmachine. Even 2017.

You should be forcing attrition with the eventual goal of winning in scenario or assassination, clocking out means you fucked up somewhere.

Are you trying to argue that it is impossible to play some match ups without clocking? Because that's hilarious if you are

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>>53763508
Depends what you need the list for, really.

I've been proxy testing this, mostly against gunlines.

The Swordsmen provide a screen that's almost invulnerable to shooting, and they're surprisingly hard to engage. You can deny one turn of charging with Kaelyssa's feat, then pop their mini-feat next turn to heavily discourage any action against them by single-wound or even medium based models (obviously, if you're expecting to be charged by multiwound stuff, just arrange them so that if you charge one Swordsmen, at least two others will also get a pre-emptive attack).

They're really good for gumming things up and scything through infantry while Kaelyssa shifts around the backline setting up opportunities for an assassination strike. You just need precise positioning and good timing.

>>53762214
Siege does it very well. And assassination is a thing for Cygnar.

>>53763876
>>53763922

Are you confirming for yourself? You need to reread my post

>>53763939
>You are the reason this game is dying

>>53764796

anon described how to play infantry heavy without clocking yourself in his post, anon.

>>53764814
Sorry I tried to help you not lose on clock. Clearly I am the scourge that has ruined Warmachine for everyone

>>53765079
>>53765064

Again, reread my post

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>>53747224
>Just because it's different doesn't mean it's bad.

>different not being bad
>on /tg/

Where do you think you are?!

>>53765242

Ok, I know for a fact there are at least 2 anons you are replying to, probably 3 unless the other guy is crazy.

>>53765425
>36 posters in the thread after 2 days

I'm not sure how many people actually come here anymore. We used to get around 100

>>53765614
The past couple threads have gone zooming to bump limit thanks to a mix of shitposting and/or angry Skorneposting. I also imagine a lot of people have abandoned the thread as result of said shitposting.

>>53748721
No one wants to win randomly in wmh. Winners don't feel good about themselves and losers feel cheated.

Random game lengths are for games like malifaux where each turns have significant swing

What's a good career to pair with Skorne Warlock in Unleashed? I'm thinking Nihilator or Cataphract.

>>53766032

Venator!

so with all the talk of Ghost Fleet and how to beat it, I'm a relatively new player and I haven't experienced a whole lot of infantrymachine yet beyond a friend playing a semi-pro Winterguard spam list into me on my fourth week. I play CoC; how do I beat Ghost Fleet, or recursion in general, and how would I gear towards beating general infantry spam?

>>53766826

Put your battle engine on the table, start laughing, remember to stop long enough to punch the clock.

>>53766032
Depends on your build.

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>>53767393
>>53766032

Slave. Aradus hive-raider egg-thief, Skorne version of office supply theft. Do it, anon. Do it.

>>53767600

Leaves me wondering what the Skorne version of Jack Ass would be like.

>>53767851
>"HI I'M VENATOR DICKBUTT, AND WELCOME TO JACKASS"
>The Ferox cat he's standing on jumps away

>>53767851
The height of nirvana according to naaresh

>>53766826
You beat infantry spam by just playing your theme. TEPs melt infantry, you get free ranged solos that auto kill anything they hit with their gun.

As for how CoC beats Ghost Fleet in particular? You don't. You can't. Go ahead, try and tailor a list. It won't even touch it.

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Trencher CID update #2

Patch Notes 6/12/2017:

Kraye: Stranglehold changed to Lock the Target. Full Tilt affects charges and slams only.
With the huge mobility afforded to this caster’s battle group, we felt these changes would make for a little more reasonable play. Removing the speed bonus from Trampling lets the movement values of the list be significantly more reasonable. The extreme control that comes from Stranglehold and Countermeasures on the same caster is something we felt out of place for Kraye. Lock the Target is a similar effect that gets us what we really wanted out of the spell while not pushing it overboard.

Hunter: Cost 10.
The discussion on the change from 6/9 was excellent, pointed and showed what we were already considering and gave us some insight into the community’s perspective on the role of the Hunter.

Siege 2: Rift replaces Ground Zero.
We have reverted the change from 6/9 back to Rift. While Ground Zero has an amazing cinematic component, it was not the most useful spell.

Trencher Long Gunner Officer: Precision Fire only affects ranged damage rolls
A editing fix. Precision Fire was only ever intended for ranged damage rolls.

I wish Mordikaar had a mass Revive that cost like 12+ fury.

>>53768282
>A editing fix
Kappa

>>53768282
Jesus fuck, Kraye1 2.0 is terrifying.

Storm Lances are now in CID

https://cid.privateerpress.com/forum/dev-talk/24193-dev-talk-storm-lances-major-katherine-laddermore

You can all stop bitching now

>>53768282
>Iron Horse
Excuse me? Cygnar gets a caster that just casually hands out Reposition 5 and Pathfinder to his entire fucking battlegroup at zero cost? Wow could this be spitting on Hordes any harder? We have to pay points on beasts to get those kind of things tacked on at the additional cost of fury to use them.

>>53769276
Yeah, and he's garbage and will see zero competitive play

>>53769343
Just like Ghost Fleet.

>>53769239
oh fug it's happening

>>53769371
Ghost fleet isn't in the same faction as Haley, Sloan, or Nemo

>>53769343
Christ the hoops I have to jump through to get reposition 5 and pathfinder on just a couple of models in my battlegroups, and he just hands that shit out, with another upside on top of it. If that was the only thing on his card I'd take him over half of the shit in my faction.

>>53769494
So because Cygnar has casters that are head and shoulders above the rest of their faction, the rest of their faction must be buffed up to that higher level? And Cygnar must receive all of these buffs before any other faction, thus allowing it to crush everyone until more updates are rolled out in the very distant future?

>>53769957

If this is trolling, well done. If it isn't, calm down just a bit. Kraye needed help.

>>53768282
>Hunter: Cost 10.
>The discussion on the change from 6/9 was excellent, pointed and showed what we were already considering and gave us some insight into the community’s perspective on the role of the Hunter.

Would a kind anon that knows what's what unpack this for me?

>>53769998
>Kraye needed help.
Want me to list off every sub-par warcaster/warlock in the game? Battlegroup repo 5 and cavalry is already fucking nuts to me as a Skorne player. You take a SPD4 heavy, trample it 7", then move another 5". Then when you go in on the charge with your crit knockdown Ironclad you get 3 dice to hit against that high DEF heavy, land a knockdown, and proceed to laugh at the high DEF your opponent paid a premium for.

>>53770090
They got rid of AD on the hunter without any other change (straight nerf). Then, they processed the feedback they got amd found it mostly agreed with them on where the Hunter sits in faction (getting rid of AD is fine, so long as it doesn't still pay for it, as it can do it's main job without the extra 6" up the board.)>>53770104

>>53770104
>and proceed to laugh at the high DEF your opponent paid a premium for

Good news, then. As Skorne, the only circumstance that could be cost-effective against you is if you were playing Molik Karn. 'dons are cheap, Bugs are steady, and everything else is less than DEF11 (excepting Despoiler, who should be screened thoroughly).

>>53770231

Rhinodons are cheap. Archidons are serpentine.

>>53769957
Wow, you missed the point on that one.

What I'm saying is that any changes to Kraye are irrelevant, because he won't ever unseat Haley. It's a joke anon.

>>53770104
>me as a Skorne player
Oh, that explains the chip on your shoulder. Listen, I suggest you just get over the whole thing. The way of the Skorne is pain and suffering.

Embrace it

>>53770231
My point wasn't whether or not it would be good against me, it was that the ability is retardedly powerful to the point where a caster whose cards had nothing but that rule on them would look insanely strong to me. The fact that no one ever even considers playing Kraye1 only tells me that Cygnar is in a horrifically skewed state.

>>53770314

I'm Skorne myself and I don't know where that came from. Titan are DEF10, Sentry and Tibbers are steady. Bugs are steady. Archidon is high def, 10 points, and can't be knocked down. Rhinodon is 12 points. It's Karn (and he's got Brute-intuition and can force rerolls of crits), Despoiler, and now Chiron. Of these, I'd only get pissed off about losing the Despoiler.

Seems more a Circle thing.

>>53769239

Wow, imagine Soles trying to say all that.

>oops, I did

>>53770388
>Models in Kraye's battlegroup get to move up the board considerably faster than if they ran
>They also get an extra dice on charge attack rolls
>And gain an extra attack in the form of an impact attack that can just flat out negate screening
>And have pathfinder at all times
>At zero cost
I wasn't saying that it was good against Skorne, only that it was good against high DEF heavies, which some factions have to pay a premium for. The ability just does so much for absolutely zero cost. It's like when Makeda1's upkeep that gave her battlegroup Shield Guard got turned into a field marshal, except this is field marshal Pathfinder, Repo 5, AND Cavalry. The sheer fact that this seems fair and balanced in the eyes of PP makes me just not want to play the game at all because factions that are already better than mine keep getting big buffs like this.

>Soles posting in the Dev talk
I thought they banned him from speaking in the CID, or was that just a fond wish?

>>53759578

legioaires are terrible. kallus1 is alright but doesn't do anything for the AA. sorry

so i'm thinking of lylyth2 for my ghost fleet drop but haven't played her since mk 2

what's her list look like now?

>>53770829
Why would the lead developer not participate in development?

>>53771642
He lead them into this hell.

Actually Soles does get bit too much flak.

If anyone deserve real hate, it's Matt Wilson, that chunni fuck.

>>53772311
Wilson doesn't actually do anything. Soles is the reason Warmachine even exists

>>53772311
*unsheathes power field*
Ach, you're going to regret slanderin Victoria Haley, mate. Ain't that roight Ox?
*threatening animal noises*

>>53772429
Yeah, but Wilson's the originator for all these cancerous "fluff" ideas.

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>>53746594

Hey guys, new Menoth player and I have a question about tactics:

How the hell do I use Daughters of the Flame? They always get torn to pieces before they have a chance to do any actual work.
Should I just not advanced deploy them? Are they just a good distraction/screen and that's about it? What do I do here?

>>53772826
Why are you playing this game if you don't even like the fluff? Seems kind of silly

>>53772311

Soles gets way too much flak.

Granted this didn't occur to me until after the Skorne errata, mind. But it let me look back at things with a new perspective.

>but for the love of god, it's worth a paycheck to put somebody between his mouth and the world

>>53774568
>but for the love of god, it's worth a paycheck to put somebody between his mouth and the world
100% this

He is the ultimate fa/tg/uy and has zero people skills

>>53751634
As a (admittedly new and local) game designer for 2 years I can tell you you're full of shit.

For example, the elf faction players complained their supposedly super agile unit was too slow, so we increased its ACT (number of actions, including movement, per turn) by 1. However, what we forgot is one of their lieutenants (hero units) have the ability to share his ACT value, and it broke the fucking game for a month.

>>53752944
I'm happy with Titans.
Now fix fucking Cyclops. I don't give a shit if it means I have to put up with a retarded Cyclops warlock.

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>tfw I'm getting excited for the Northkin CID
So many things that could be buffed. I know it's foolish to hope, but still.

>>53775349
Brace for disappointment

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>>53775363
Are we actually getting new models? I mean we just got the Sea King.
My predictions
>Champ/warder buffs
>Elemental Troll (or at least Winter Troll) buffs
>Bearka buffs
>Kriel Warrior buffs (maybe? This one is kinda iffy.)

>>53775349
I hope you trolls get something nice. You've waited long enough. I hope Borka2 becomes a fucking badass.

>>53775404
At the very least 3 new models not including the one I mentioned.

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>>53775404
WHY DID YOU DELETE YOUR POST
WHO ARE YOU AND WHAT DO YOU KNOW

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Brainstorming lists while I wait for Elara2 to get delivered.
I know Halberdiers are the favorite pick for her infantry, but I feel my colossal-rich meta justifies keeping a squad of Sentinels around.

Seems like it would be kind of gay to have a War Wagon or whatever, like 3 Gargantuans, then get another BE. BEs aren't THAT great.

>>53776503
Or you could spam 30+ Halberdiers and get Advance Move and 3 free solos. I fucking hate theme forces.

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>>53776545
Jesus, you weren't kidding.
God, why did they decide to push "spam for free stuff" themes years after 40K showed everyone why that shit is horrible for a game

>>53776725
I wonder if it will take them as long as GW to recognize how fuckign stupid it is. Especially in a game where models actually do different things.

>>53776767
>a game where models actually do different things
Just the other day I had a 40K guy at my shop telling me that games that aren't made by Games Workshop are "stuck in the past" because they don't let you take whatever models you want because they "force you to follow synergy instead of making every model viable".
It hurts to know that this is the core mindset of the tabletop gaming market these days.

>>53776858
Well we just have to accept that people who emphasize gameplay in a wargame are the minority.

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>>53773209
>caring about things irrelevant to gameplay in a game.

>>53776858
well, not making models viable is a big problem for PP. he's not wrong there.

>>53776858

I must admit, that is something I've often had a bit of an issue with PP. The fact that synergy between your units is so very important but I often don't particularly like the look/fluff behind some of the models to mesh with my other stuff. Warmachine often builds/plays a lot like a card game in that regard.

But then, I got into tabletop games with Battletech. That is the king of 'Sure, take whatever you want' games.

>>53776876

Well, that's not entirely true. It's more an emphasis on synergy and model interaction. Games can have units be independent of each other and still have plenty of gameplay.

>>53777521
Well yes, but if all models do the same thing that's detrimental to gameplay.

>>53777684
It's more a question of models having their own well defined purpose, and rules that let them fulfil it. At present Warmahordes is about finding some unanswerable wombo combo, and high level games are basically wombo combo v wombo combo, with the winner being whoever's list happens to line up the best with their opponents.

>>53777684

Models can have purpose without having quite as big a focus on synergy as Warmahordes has right now.

>>53777901
>It's more a question of models having their own well defined purpose, and rules that let them fulfil it.
Sure. But there needs to be a veriety in purpose unless your basic rules already allow for highly complex gameplay (think Go).
>At present Warmahordes is about finding some unanswerable wombo combo, and high level games are basically wombo combo v wombo combo, with the winner being whoever's list happens to line up the best with their opponents.
That is a highly superficial view of how competitive games work. It leasves out everything that happens on the table and also assumes that every competitive list is a skew. And while some are, others are not.

>>53776725
>>53776725
Question is Invictor gunline good with Elara 2, she gets rid of stealth with mark for death and her feat extends their assault range so even with out the charge attack and with the mini feat they threaten 24" unless my math is wrong 8" charge. +10 inch gun+ 4" mini feat +2" Elara feat.

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What do you guys think of Aiakos2, regardless of what the tryhard meta is?

I think he looks super cool and his feat is Alpha-Strike galore.

>>53778490
I don't know, but he can probably get an assassination or two in like this:

https://conflictchamber.com/#c4201bgz1h1h1h1h1h1h1h1h1h1h1h1h2B2B

Cryx Army - 75 / 75 points

(Aiakos 2) Captain Aiakos [+29]
- Stalker x12 [8x12]
Warwitch Siren [4]
Warwitch Siren [4]

>Error: Our system thinks your post is spam.
Sure is.

>>53778127

Given that premeasure is a thing and that Spam/Theme lists are a thing, there isn't much unique player input as the game is maturing under the new rules.

For example, someone could watch games in Mk2 of someone playing a theme list and have a pretty good idea what to do with it on the tabletop.

With premeasuring, it's even worse. With premeasuring Theme lists that build themselves, it's even worse than that. Sure there is a bit of player variety in there but not much.

Theme lists were a mistake. So was premeasure.

>>53780185
Like I said, your observations are not wrong. Your conclusions are too simplistic. But that's what this place has become. A simplistic shoutbox for black-white opinions.

>>53780206

I wasn't the OP you responded to (sincerely).

I'm not black/white on the fact that players influence the game. Surely they still have a dramatic effect on how a game players out, especially with the fact scenario isn't live anymore.

However, with premeasure and cookie cutter lists (Why doesn't PP just break down and give us lists to play at this point?), the influence players have on the game is greatly diminished.

Or put it another way. Let's say you have two Jakes playing each other in a Legion mirror. Once is taking a theme force giving him 20-25 extra points, the other is just playing vanilla Legion.

Who wins that matchup 80% of the time given that player skill is equal?

Now of course, we don't play clones. But when you get to a high enough level, the mistakes become fewer (and the magnitude of those mistakes becomes less acute). So 20ish extra points suddenly becomes a much larger deal.

Now, on top of all that, add in premeasure which severely undercuts the amount of dramatic mistakes that can happen during a game. Now it becomes a probability simulator and the more experience in the matchup both players have---the more it feels like that.

I'm constantly shocked how much of a difference premeasure and spam lists makes in the game now.

>>53780206
>A simplistic shoutbox for black-white opinions.
Warmachine discussion everywhere in a nutshell.

>>53780349
Everywhere online.

>>53780277
>Once is taking a theme force giving him 20-25 extra points

Alright look I can respect complaints about points but the highest difference with an all Jack/Beast spam army would be 4 Free Solos. Most are Cost 4, with a few rare 5s. Even if it's only 5 for some reason that's a difference of 20 points at MAXIMUM possible at the 75 Point tier, with every 75 points and free points being beasts and that nets you 4 support solos (Or weapon crews).

Theme force spam by the way it works locks you into selecting infantry/Warnouns with pretty natural weaknesses. Even in Dreaded Khador theme lists.

Spam is more a case of failed units as opposed to anything caused by theme lists. People complained about spam all the time before they arrived. Spam was just easy to adjust to theme lists.

I mean I enjoy premeasuring. The games not about chicken and pre measuring was massively new player unfriendly.

>>53780277
>However, with premeasure and cookie cutter lists (Why doesn't PP just break down and give us lists to play at this point?), the influence players have on the game is greatly diminished.

Take a unit (or hell, warnoun) that you have. Describe to yourself, to your satisfaction, what it does and how it does it. Take a Warcaster/Warlock that you have that supports either of those things. If you do not have such a thing, if the relevant faction has one but you don't own it, buy that Warcaster/Warlock. Do the same for solos.

Now, think about what tasks have to be carried out during the course of a game that is beyond the easy capacity of your chosen unit, and doesn't happen to have been addressed by what you have supporting it. Throw in something that will take care of that somehow. Keep going until you are satisfied or you have run out of points.

If you are satisfied and still have points left, scale the result to fit your points allotment.

>There. Now don't mention that again.

>>53780474
>People complained about spam all the time before they arrived.
Indeed. And now people are being rewarded for spamming. Do you think themes improved upon the issue? I mean, Cygnar players were already playing the 2x Lances boat before Storm Division, but now they are getting 9 free points for doing so. It just incentivizes spam further.

>I mean I enjoy premeasuring. The games not about chicken and pre measuring was massively new player unfriendly.
They were just player unfriendly, full stop. Winning and losing are supposed to be decided on outsmarting your opponent or being outsmarted. Not out-eyesighted. And believe me, my eyesight is fucking perfect.

>>53780474
>Theme force spam by the way it works locks you into selecting infantry/Warnouns with pretty natural weaknesses

I would respectfully disagree with you there in most themes.

Let's take a look at Power of Dhunia. It says "Run a beast brick and get a lot of free shit, better Thresholds, etc.". I get everything I want out of that theme because it's my beast brick anyways and I really don't care if I can't take Kriel warriors.

The only restrictive item in Trolls that ever feels like a pinch (even in Band of Heroes) is the lack of Fireeaters but even then..meh.


And this is not a silo of thought here. MoM recently had a podcast where most of the top level players are just outright saying, if you want to be competitive better play themes. Because if someone has 20ish% more points than you, along with whatever other bonuses the theme brings, you're in trouble.

And maybe that's just how PP wants the game now, where it's theme or go home casual. Which is fine (I guess?) but boy does it take one of the cooler parts of the game away (creativity in list building). And that's a damn shame.

>>53780719

This doesn't make much sense to me, sorry Not being sarcastic, I'm just not sure what I'm supposed to get out of this.

>>53780823

Following that procedure will generate a variety of not-shit lists.

>>53780804
I miss being able to play character jacks and mercs with my lists, but my dying local meta is just a bunch of competitive tryhards.

>>53780868

That's why I'm not sure what I'm supposed to take away from it. I can make competitive lists and I do quite well.

My aggravation is the lists feel very shoehorned in Mk 3

>>53780956
>My aggravation is the lists feel very shoehorned in Mk 3
That is sadly by design. Themes are just too good to pass up.

>>53780981
It's funny, I remember a time when people complained that themes were much too weak and unenticing.

>>53781014
Most of them were. But now we're at the other extreme. Some middle gound would be nice.

One complaint with themes was always that most of them felt tacked-on. Every caster had to have a theme and so most of them were rather poorly designed. Now every faction has to have X amount of themes and it leads to the exact same problem of themes being token instead of thematic. Except now they are basically mandatory.

>>53781014
Bitches gon' bitch. It's a fundamental truth of the universe.

>>53780804
>"Run a beast brick and get a lot of free shit, better Thresholds, etc.".

So you're running a beast brick locking yourself into a beast brick. Pretty awesome targets for armor cracking.


>>53780762
>Indeed. And now people are being rewarded for spamming. Do you think themes improved upon the issue?
Nope. But theme lists aren't the problem as the spammed stuff (Or the stuff that enables the spammed stuff) is which they are working to fix which is good.

>>53781097
>Nope. But theme lists aren't the problem as the spammed stuff (Or the stuff that enables the spammed stuff) is which they are working to fix which is good.
I'll believe that when I see it. PP has fixed a bunch of stuff oer the past month. But they do not seem intent on fixing spam. To the contrary, they are releasing more and more theme forces. And they all lead to the same result: Take one thing and spam the crap out of it.

>>53781097
Like Stormlances AS OF NOW are gonna get some smacks.

PP does want people to buy ALL their shit. Or at least like buying stuff.

Unless your one of those retards that thinks PP literally gained an allergy to money, I think the very smallest kindness that could be given to PP is that they still like money.

They get money selling old stuff OR new stuff.

>>53781127
>Take one thing and spam the crap out of it.
Then why are they nerfing stormlances?

Its a VERY small one at the moment, but that's because Cygnarians are fucking Spoiled as fuck.

But the hammer will keep coming down.

>>53781097
>So you're running a beast brick locking yourself into a beast brick

I'm sorry, I'm not trying to be rude but I'm forced to dismiss your opinion now anon. I don't think you know what you're talking about. At least when it comes to Trolls.
>>53781128
>I think the very smallest kindness that could be given to PP is that they still like money.

Oh, I think they do. I'm just not sure on their competence right now.

>>53781135
Well it would certainly be a step in the right direction when Storm Division turns from "Storm Lance Spam" to "Storm Knight Spam". But we're not nearly there and even then they've just replaced it with a slightly broader definition of spam.

What about mixed forces? What about Storm Knights and Gun Mages and Trenchers working together alongside a few jacks? Why are forces like these discouraged?

>>53781185

Well, to seek a solution in "fluff", just have Cavalry not score circle-zones. Lump them in with battle engines in square zones.

>nearly everyone ever always had as much cavalry as they could get away with

>>53781167
>I'm sorry, I'm not trying to be rude but I'm forced to dismiss your opinion now anon.
That's pretty rude. At least explain why not overstacking trolls wouldn't put you into a bad spot against dedicated cracking options.

>>53781167
>Oh, I think they do. I'm just not sure on their competence right now.

Fair enough. I give them a B-.

>>53781185
>What about Storm Knights and Gun Mages and Trenchers working together alongside a few jacks?

That's just kinda a regular force without a theme.

I keep saying: Theme forces aren't a symptom of spam: Poorly designed stuff is. But as for why its discourages its because they do want reasons for people to take different stuff in theme.

The Trencher Journeyman ain't bad for instance, but given the opportunity, a Cygnar player always takes the Junior. ALWAYS. Yes there is a theme that they want people to take it in. That doesn't mean they encourage spamming it.

But extra points in this instance is the motivation for not taking the Junior, or double team the Trencher and the Junion together and create rediculous threat ranges.

You still can, just different points motives.

>>53781418
>That's pretty rude. At least explain why not overstacking trolls wouldn't put you into a bad spot against dedicated cracking options.

Sorry (truly) but it just gives me the impression you don't have any experience with Trolls.

Trolls need a gunline/Cygnar/Menoth/Khador Jack spam answer. That's not our infantry, as even with Maddy 2 weapon master spam POW 10s (cygnar) removes your army. And even t hen, 20 point Fenn units are tough to trade against 10 point heavies.

This is nothing new in Mk 3, was the same in Mk 2. Just the way the cake is baked for our faction. This is why you saw beast brick + Cryx/Khador answer in Mk 2 and still see it a bit in Mk 3 (although oddly enough the anti cryx answers still seem to be heavy beasts at this point). That may change once Cryx infantry become the boogeyman again.

So as a Troll player you bring your beast brick right now, then you bring something to answer traditional Cryx style lists. Gunny + Madrak 2 for example. Ragnor + eGrim, etc.

>>53781418
>That's just kinda a regular force without a theme.
It's a Cygnar force, as thematic as any other. Why is this kind of list so heavily discouraged? The answer is of course laziness.

>>53777512
there's nothing wrong with synergy, but the issue is that PP doesn't even balance that properly.

Joe to winterguard vs Yuri to Kossites difference is night and day

>>53777512

Victim of it's size, there.

There are a *lot* of interactions in warmachine. A ton just lying dormant, waiting to choke out the game given half a chance. Who the hell was thinking about Rifle Corps and rockets when they set out to have Joe buff winterguard infantry?

>>53784665
>Who the hell was thinking about Rifle Corps and rockets when they set out to have Joe buff winterguard infantry?

Uh, everyone that saw the leaks mentioned it then.

That's like saying who the hell thought Madrak 2 was OP when the leaks hit. Everyone in my group did.

Oh shit, we're sinking.

More pictures next thread, anons.

>>53786002
>More pictures next thread
Aree they cool pictures?

>>53783262
>> Sole's pumkintown faction and the cringe that came with it.

What pumkintown faction?

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>>53786411
pumpkins scream in the dead of night.

>>53786852
>>53786852
NEW THREAD
MISSION OBJECTIVE