8e Tau Discussion Part 2: Electric Krootaloo

I recall someone saying that Pulse Accel drones stacked on Firewarriors. Reading their rules, it seems specifically worded such that they do not stack, same with the bonus shot from a Cadre Fireblade. It's all "if X is within Y range of a Z, then get bonus". There's no clause for being within range of multiple sources of a given buff.

>>53636819

The wording of Fireblades and Accelerators are actually different,

Fireblades
>Models in <Sept> units within 6" of *any friendly <Sept> Cadre Fireblades* (etc.)

This does not stack, "Any" could be 1 or 1000 and it would only apply the aura once.

Accelerator
>T'au Empire Infantry units within 3" of a friendly Pulse Accelerator drone have the range of (etc.)

The "Any" limitation here doesn't apply, the aura stacks infinitely.

It can be argued that it shouldn't stack, and almost certainly isn't intended, but the difference in wording is important.

I tend to lean towards RAI normally, but in competitive games RAW can make a great deal of difference

>>53636790
what's the consensus of crisis suits?
What's the consensus on coldstar suits?

>>53637554

Too early for consensus but...

Burst cannons are even with gun drones in damage output, and drones are a more efficient platform to deploy them. Crisis to me seem like prime elite/heavy infantry hunters or, if kitted properly, assassins. Consider mixing weapons again, since enemies can and will advance on your position now.

>>53637752
is tau plasma worth anything?
or are fusion suits going to be vehicle hunters in 8th? Are cyclic ion blasters ever worth it over missile pods?

>>53637053
I agree that it's strange that they don't use the same wording, if the same lack of stacking is likely intended. Regardless, if you have an infantry unit within range of two Accelerators, it's still "within 3" of a friendly Pulse Accelerator Drone". A unit being or not being within range is binary.

>>53637835
PR have better range than FB, and don't waste damage on low-wound models. PR is for heavy infantry, FB is for vehicles and super-heavies.

>>53637869
Is it worth taking 3 weapons and is weapon mixing really a good idea?
Could you provide an example?

>>53638037
7E target lock capability is free now (split fire at will), so you don't need to worry as much about wasting firepower by mixing weapons, as long as you're in range of multiple targets.

Triple weapon is expensive, but by definition is a 50% increase in firepower, which is far more than any of the support systems boast. Raw damage, or versatility/utility? This is all going to take a lot of testing, and relies heavily on what other factions are bringing.

>>53638101
so how about a 3 man squad where every suit has a flamer, plas and fusion blaster.
would be 82 points per suit

Looking at running a kroot list for shits and giggles, though I'm struggling to find a hq to match the theme, was thinking of just 1 ethereal and body guard to 'oversee' the force, then take a shaper elite as the actual 'fluff' hq

>>53638173
I could see it working as a multipurpose suit, though do keep in mind the cost. You could get a full 10-man FW team at about the same price. I may also recommend checking out the CIB; the two profiles could be useful on a flex suit like that.

Again, this all needs testing, which is why battle reports will be so important. We're not sure yet what will rock and what will flop.

>>53638270
Ethereal is the fluffiest option.

Beware though that Kroot alone gives you fairly few options. You're not terribly mobile with your main forces, and the Krootox is your only source of anti-armor, and even that is only AP-1, D:d3. You can do it, but it'll be an uphill battle.

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Tau guys, I got a fluff question. What kind of government do the Farsight Enclaves have? Is it a dictatorship where Farsight is the leader or is there some council? Is the caste system still rigidly enforced or can a Earth Caste join the military?

>>53638374
I don't know much about the government, but IIRC, one of the Eight is an Earth Caste in the riptide, who in 7e has a specific option to represent that.

>>53638270
I would say to just model a kroot with a robe and a totem-looking staff and count that as an Ethereal

>>53638374
>>53638398
I think government-wise theyre a military dictatorship of sorts, but with a lot more feedom for those in different castes

So what are the go-to suit loadouts you're looking at, and what support systems for non-crisis?

Guard: 2xPR+EWO, used to guard backline
Hunter: 2xFB+SG, used to attack vehicles and heavy, SG used to hopefully stay alive longer
Destroyer: 2xMP+ATS, used to fight light vehicles or heavy infantry
Slayer: 2xBC+Flamer, used versus hordes of chaff

>>53638342
Force mobility isn't a major issue for me, I generally play with friends, and we all play silly fluff armies, I believe one of them is planning on a human wave guard force with only lasguns, as in his words 'even lasguns can kill a titan with a 6'

>>53639603
Ooch, I feel sorry for your friend for if/when he eventually faces a proper heavy vehicle. It takes literally hundreds of shots to scratch those things with lasguns.

>>53639634
Welcome to the world of 30 year olds who can afford to buy 2000 points of meatshields

>>53639634
>>53639656


His list is literally

Detachment 1
-Lord commissar
Bolt pistol
Power sword
-Lord commissar
Bolt pistol
Power sword

Conscipts (50) - 6 squads

Detachment 2
-Lord commissar
Bolt pistol
Power sword
-commissar
Bolt pistol
Power sword

Conscipts (50) - 6 squads

That's something like 604/605 models on the table rapid firing lasguns

>>53639933
This is hilariously close to the 666 conscripts joke army on the main general. It seems like it'll be problematic versus absolutely anything with armor or large wound pools.

How useful is having a Recon drone in a Devilfish? With the way the rules work it doesnt even have to follow the pathfinders when they disembark I don't think

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>>53638173
>>53639508

I don't think you need to build crisis suits to hunt infantry. Tau have -so much- strength 5 shooting on every little thing that the points you spend on a crisis team kitted for infantry hunting can buy you more and more consistent damage if spent on gun drones instead.

It's not that Tau are spending a lot of points on their heavier weapons, it's that the units that are allowed to carry heavier weapons cost more points for the privilege of being able to do so. You should therefore look to establish a hierarchy where your light infantry and drones are kitted to kill light infantry, your heaviest stuff is kitted to kill the heavy stuff you expect to encounter, and your crisis suits are fitted to fill the gaps in between.

Quad fusion commanders for maximum wounds

>>53641157
I expect BC and ABFP to be fairly rare picks, with MP, PR and FB being far more common.

What units are best served by bringing along gun drones?

>>53642214

Firewarriors.

>>53642214

Any unit that has synergy with their 18" carbines.

>>53642214

With saviour protocols, a lot of things

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how is this list?
I don't know what to fill my 1 point with.
I will in future replace the missile pod commander with an xv84, would it be better to remove the coldstar and gun drones and replace them with a full crisis team for now?

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Played a game against tau today with my night lords. I stacked the icon of despair with their leadership debuff effect. I barely got to fight, everybody just fled and I shot the riptide to death with meltaguns. Man you guys got some shit leadership. Respect for fireblades tho, those guys hurt

>>53642476
>he was running a riptide
confirmed for being shit

>>53642433

At this point, hard to tell how things will work from reading, gotta test.
But, why an ATS on the Keel? A target lock would enable ignoring the heavy penalty without needing ML support. AP -4 already ignores the vast majority of saves and an ATS won't help with the invulnerables.

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>>53642493
Something I never would have anticipated hearing less than a month ago

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>>53642433

Gun drones are cheaper, you actually have 9 points to spare in that list.

>>53642537
well now it's the worst model in all of 40k

if you add tactical drones to a stealth team do they infiltrate as well?

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So wait, is the new paradigm for small, medium, and large games in 40k now 1000, 2000, and 3000 point increments?

>>53642707
Yes. Attached drones are placed in coherency with the unit they're attached to when that unit is placed. So Infiltrating stealth suits are placed on the table and the drones are placed with them. Then they split into a separate unit.

Are tau really that bad this edition? I feel like it's way too early to say they are. Drones are baller and stealth suits seem to be more fun than they ever were.
I am a little disappointed about ML and really sad about losing JSJ.
Fuck tha police

>>53642967
tau are solidly mid tier
exceptional units are stealth teams (and ghostkeels) since they cost the same while buffed, tactical drones which are cheaper and the sunshark bomber for actually dealing with hordes in a horde edition. Also vespids are really good now. Oh and deep strike has no scatter

Sidegrades/light nerfs would be crisis suits/fireblades and lots of things lost deep strike

Shit tier are riptides and homing beacons

Overall it will be a better edition for tau as we're balanced but not op

>>53643017
>homing beacons
>shit tier

Whut 'chu talkin' about, Anon?

>>53643083
20 points for a one use beacon that only allows one unit to deep strike within 6" of it with no scatter in an edition where deep strike has no scatter as long as you do it outside of 9" from an enemy unit, which is exactly where you want to be for fusion weapons and further out for other weapons since we are tau

>>53643118
Ah, I thought it was free for some reason.

Still, it has a situational value if you want to get fusion suits in range for best of 2d6 damage.

>>53643217
fusion suits still need 9", exactly provided by standard deep strike function.

>>53643262
No, standard deep strike must be GREATER than 9", melta needs to be inside of half range, which means LESS than 9". You explicitly cannot deep strike and melta the same turn unless you use the beacon.

>>53643262

Manta strike placement needs to be -more- than 9" from enemy models. Can't obey that rule and still be in fusion range. Homing beacon allows you to arrive closer.

>>53642662
Good fuck that weeb trash model

Give me hammerheads and combined arms warfare any day of the week

So how good is a sun shark? I'm thinking of picking one up. Generally speaking, if I'm expecting dudespam, will one be enough at 1k points?

>>53643322
>>53643335
I didn't realise that, I thought exactly 9" meant it was an option, anyway the beacon is destroyed if an enemy moves within 9" of and at 20 points is a lot of points unless you are running multiple fusion suit teams in manta holds

>>53644187
It's definitely situationally useful at best, but I could see it being used in higher-point games where you want to drop a group of 5+ FB suits to take down a titan or something.

>>53643621
It looks solid, but as with everything will need testing.

>>53644187

The beacon is also destroyed when the suits deep strike onto it too, and that happens at the end of the movement phase, the same phase where you dropped it.

>>53640482
FRFSRF turns each of those blobs into 200 shots each at 12", 100 at 24". That easily approaches the numbers needed to seriously hurt armor each turn.

I would not underestimate that weight of fire even playing the odds.

>>53638374
Farsight is actually still pretty rigid with the castes, but it was a case of "this earth caste guy is so cool I gotta let him help me kill shit"

I expect he'll be more lenient over time. If he's still alive.

>>53644292
It's not completely impossible, it's just very inefficient, given that the guard has actual options intended to deal with heavy infantry as well as proper vehicles. Enough lasguns will eventually down anything, but that doesn't mean that that's an efficient strategy.

>>53644292

Gotta pop the commisars then let morale murder the numbers
LD4
Kill 10, 7-12 run away after, essentially you kill them twice as fast then

>>53637053
It doesn't stack.

For the Pulse Accelerator, the subject of the action is the improved infantry unit. The Accelerator isn't performing the action of a buff, therefore multiple accelerators don't perform multiple applications of buff.

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>>53638374
We don't really know for sure, but imo I've always imagined them as a true socialist/communist state that actually works, but is contested by it's own isolation and the normal sort who want to take Farsight down.

Basically, I imagine the Enclaves as the /true/ good political idealists that function, but are as a whole sort of underdogs to even the underdogs (mainline Tau Empire).

http://www.3plusplus.net/2017/06/8th-edition-battle-report-1500-pts-tau-vs-orks/

>>53645883

GW called him the crimson freedom fighter once

>>53638374
According to the 6e farsight enclaves supplement the Enclaves are:
-Pure meritocracy
-"Each of the principal world of the Farsight Enclaves has democracy overseen by one of the Commander O'Shovash's old allies"

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Is it back?

>>53642493
Eh, I can still see a heavy burst cannon + plasma rifles/MS with ATS to work to some degree. 12 s6 ap-2 shots are potent.

>>53646667
OH man. If this gets to come back, I will never stop laughing.

>be innocent 12 y/o me
>get into sweet mecha Tau
>unbeknownst to the massive hate about fish o fury at the time.

so many people hated on my starting army (which only had 1 devilfish for transport btw) I didn't play until late 5th

>>53646054
Lel
Cheaters

>>53637053
A unit within range of 20 drones is in range of A drone. It gets the bonus once.

>>53638374
On paper Enclaves are a meritocracy. In practice they keep dragging Farsight out of his self-imposed exile and installing him as a war-time dictator (very Roman style).

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Friendly remainder that this model is armed with a single ion rifle and pays some heavy premium for it.

Are Broadsides worth it? I want to run two behind my wall of Fire Warriors with HRRs and SMS. The extra 16 SMS shots should deter a few more charges into the line.

>>53647237
It's a strictly worse, more expensive dreadnaught that has to pay points to have unfocused weaponry. Granted you can split fire your guns to different targets now but it's not like tau has trouble of getting s5 ap0 shots.

>>53647643
The 2+ save gives it more survivability and with an Ethereal nearby they can ignore wounds on 6's. A shield generator is only 8pts and gives a 4++, and nearby drones could soak big hits for them. You can make them a fair bit tougher.

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What units do you think synergies better with mechanized Tau?

>>53647930
Breachers, for sure. They aren't as devastating as they were before, but for 8pts a model they sure pack a wallop when inside of 5"

>>53647869
>if you keep pumping points into already expensive unit it might survive a bit further!
Meanwhile dread has +2T, +2W and costs less.

>>53648014
Sure, but we can't take dreads. We can take Broadsides.

>>53648014
that +2T won't mean that much as almost nothing is S12+ which means that similar types of weapons will be aimed at both units, also a 2+ save is so much better than 3+.and it can deal mortal wounds

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I wonder who will lead 4th Sphere of Expansion and who will lead the 5th one.

Are homing beacons single use only? I believe the RAI is that they are but the wording on the rule says nothing about deploying it again after it's used in further turns.

>>53638398
>>53638456
>>53644325
>>53645883
>>53646642
>>53646966
Thanks for the answers. I wonder if auxiliaries are included in that meritocracy, since I know one of the Enclave's planets is literally named Gue'Vesa Planet.

Do we know whether FW will be updating the rules for knarlocs? I know it's unlikely but since they are updating a bunch of discontinued stuff...

It would be a shame if they weren't, now that we can field a proper kroot army (except for the converted HQ and possibly kroot vultures counting as vespids)

>>53647930
I'd say Vespid. They can keep pace with most of our vehicles and provide some decent anti-heavy-infantry, or a counter charge.

>>53647955
Don't forget that Devilfishes are tougher now. If you deploy the Breachers on the other side of the 'fish then you're much safer than you were before.

>>53648652
You take one, you deploy IT.
As much as rules lawyering is fun, 40K isn't MTG, the rules are written with common sense in mind.

>>53637847
Yes anon I agree with this. It doesn't matter how many are within 3 inch. Just if one or more are within 3 inch.

>>53636790
c... can I play my Tau without everyone at the LGS groaning at me now?

>>53650096
It took like 1,5 editions for stuff like AM and grey knights to cool down all the hate they gathered in 5e.

>>53649043
No they aren't

>>53648940
I'd imagine that the local race gets self-governance for the most part, with Ethereal oversight.

>>53649043
On the FW site, there's a preview for the Xenos index there, which includes the table of contents. No Knarlocs, sadly. Technical drones are getting stats, though?

>>53653379
>Ethereals in Enclaves
Nice try Aun'va, not gonna fall for that.

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>>53653510
Damn you Farsight! We'll get you one of these days!

>>53647127
And it can no longer detach at any point in the Sunshark's move. And it doesn't have interceptor or skyfire equivalents.

>>53653697
At least it can use the super-charged profile again.

Commander spam seems potentially better than crisis teams.
The native BS2+ plus a 4th hardpoint gives a strong edge as well as the character keyword.

>>53654039
Which it now has a greater chance of dying from.

>>53654064
One anon was talking about using Supreme Command to run something like 10 commanders, half coldstar.

Commanders also have the benefit of being min size 1, whereas crisis are min size 3 now.

Didn't realize there was another tau thread.

posted this in 40k general thread.

225 = Longstrike with smart missile systems Rail gun + 2 seeker missiles.

42 = Cadre fireblade with marker light

43 = 5 firewarrior team with marker light
127 = devilfish with gun drones

43 = 5 firewarrior team with marker light
127 = devilfish with gun drones

40 = 5 firewarrior team
127 = devilfish with gun drones

67 = 6 pathfinders with rail rifle

59 = 5 pathfinders with rail rifle

52 = 5 pathfinders with ion rifle and pulse accelerator drone

188 = Hammerhead with ion cannon and gundrones

188 = hammerhead with Ion cannon and gundrones

171 = hammerhead with railgun and gundrones

1499pts
6 CP

>>53647930
vespid, piranhas. fighters.

anything that can reliably move 12" in a turn.

>>53637053
they stack with each other though right.

like if i had a fireblade next to an accelerator my pulse rifles would then triple tap at 18" and my carbines would triple tap at 12". right?

>>53655214
Yes.

>>53645018
What in the fuck are you talking about

>>53637554
Crisis Suits are still good but they're expensive so you can't spam them

+Can deep strike
+Good defenses with T5 3W 3+
+Option to take Stim Injectors and Shield Generators if you want a very good defensive unit
+Good plane hunters with 2x Fusion Blasters and Velocity Tracker
+Can take 2-3 flamers and become very good at overwatch
+Plasma Rifles are still good at killing MEQ
+Missile pods are amazing in general, but especially at killing terminators and primaris, as well as light vehicles

You will probably not see more than 6 crisis suits in a 2000 point game

TAU PSYKERS WHEN

>>53656067
flamers aren't great on overwatch though. unless you're right up fucking close to the fucker.

>>53656067
The problem with crisis suits is that commander is just straight up better at everything but getting +1 to hit from 5 lights.

Crisis Suits are 42 points each and Commanders are 76, and their equipment costs the same.

For 34 points you get +2 BS, +3W (double), no chance of taking losses to Morale, and the ability to hide behind any model you want.

I'm starting to think its more effective to just run Commanders instead of Crisis Suits...

>>53656216
Don't forget, you also get an extra slot, and while you do have to pay for it, that makes some of the force-multiplier support systems more appealing. I mean, compare getting 3 interceptor plasma rifles firing on a commander, with what you'd need for 2 crisis suits with plasma and interceptor on each

>>53656067
Generally agree with everything stated. They are now properly expensive elites, and very flexible depending on how you load them out.

Unsure about best weapon for flyer-hunting. 2*FB+VT sounds good, but I'm wary about chasing a flyer across the board, trying to get into melta range. I could see 2*MP+VT versus lighter flyers?

>>53656216
Is there an etiquette for just running my crisis as commander?

>>53656384
>I'm wary about chasing a flyer across the board, trying to get into melta range.
Abuse the minimum 20" movement

Just deep strike into range as soon as the plane moves away from the rest of its army. Usually only takes 1 or 2 turns for people to be forced to move their plane into your territory

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Is this close enough as a proxy? Suggestions?

>>53656416
It's definitely doable, but will require good planning and positioning. I suppose high risk, high return. With the new drop restrictions, that's really the new FB mantra.

>>53656471
These are looking very good!

>>53656471
I'd say so. I may use that, actually.

Commander >> Crisis

Quadmannder fusion for anti armour
2+ to hit unit size of one
Quadmannder with plasmas for anti MEQ
Etc

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>>53639933
Tell your buddy to get that deathwing guy who's gives everyone in 6 inches a 4plus invul save. Place people right and he could give it to every squad of fifty. You ready for the tar pit!?

>>53656857
1. Don't forget commander can hide behind other units, and can be taken in units of one versus the minimum size 3 for regular crisis.
2. With four slots, the upgrade support systems get better. ATS, VT and MT all are solid picks, depending on your loadout and target. I expect triple weapon + support to be common on commanders.

>>53644292
Even if he managed to get all that firepower focused on a few targets a turn, which is nearly impossible, it barely tickles any remotely tough or well-armored unit.
The entire thing falls apart as soon as the commissars get sniped. Conscript blobs will start evaporating quickly to failed morale.
It's a shit list.

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Any word on Crisis Suits as troops for 8th Ed? And assuming there is, does it look viable? Really excited to Gundam it up in a world where it's not bullshit.

>>53657169
Currently not possible, but with the Vanguard Detachment, they don't need to be troops.

Crisis suits are strong, but very expensive. Also, Commanders are weirdly cost-effective upgrades.

>>53657261
Hmm! Interesting interesting. How are Kroot looking this edition, by the by? Vespid? I've heard Riptides have fallen out of meta as well, which is an interesting notion.

>>53657456
>kroot
Better, back to 4e standards
>vespids
Super good
>riptides
Still fieldable but massively overpointed

>>53644292
Good now try to get all those conscripts within 12" of a tank that moves 12

>>53657456
Kroot are solid, but lost sniper rounds. Still decent infiltration troops. Vespides take the place of the 7e cheap crisis for quick takedowns of lightly armored targets. Riptides are currently a tad too expensive, but like the Crisis, are still potent; their cost just means you need to be more careful about when you take them.

And keep in mind that the way GW set things up means that everything will regularly be re-evaluated for point-costs, with the intent to update costs at least yearly. So if after playing the game for a year it's clear that the Riptide IS a tad too expensive, it may get dropped down a smidge.

>>53657456
Kroot are garbage. Can't benefit from commanderss, fireblades or darkstrider, hounds and oxes can't benefit from ethereals invocations. Horrible leadership, shitty gun, 1A in combat so they won't even kill anything. Lost infiltrate, outflank and stealth in forest but can move 7'' before the game starts. New morale kills them hard. Shaper seems nice, only model that gives rerolls for to wound rolls so you can at least stack both to hit and to wound reroll buffs for some effect. Fire warriors got cheaper so their horde factor got worse too. Hounds have s3 so they struggle to kill almost anything.

>>53658779
I think you're missing the point of kroot. They're meant to fulfill a fundamentally different role from standard firewarriors. They do indeed have a shittier gun and benefit from fewer buffs, but their job isn't to be your primary source of firepower in a gunline with your commanders. Their job is to be the first wave, which starts further out in prime locations to hamper opponent advance. Their mildly worse gun is still just as effective against the majority of infantry (T3), and the loss of range isn't as important if you're already starting closer to your opponent. Their melee is by no definition "good", but it's less trash than standard FW, and cheaper. They're supposed to be your first line of defense to screen incoming enemies. Set them up a distance in front of your main force, use them to catch incoming 'nid or ork hordes to buy time for your main forces to do their job. If you're taking them as your primary force, you're either playing a casual game, or using them wrong.

>Hounds have s3 so they struggle to kill almost anything
They're 4ppm, and have a native AP-1. Like the Carnivores, their job isn't to do all of your killing, their job is to be a distraction or obstacle. They're fast and can reliably enter melee to harass light infantry while you focus elsewhere.

Bets on what technical drones do this edition? FW confirmed they'll have rules.

which of the two smaller drones in the path finder box is the pulse accelerator drone? the tall one with the fin? or the short one with the hand?

>>53660415
Hand is pulse accell, sphere is grav inhib.

>>53660571
oh good, thanks. easier to hide then.

>>53660684
alternatively
aside from the carbine drone, no one really knows otherwise, and pass them off as what you need

>>53662068
Eh, the big-three are all pretty recognizable given how frequently they're used. The specialists could be pretty easily interchanged model-wise.

everyone wont shut up about conscripts now

>>53664263
Yeah. I'm not terribly concerned by conscript-spam; if you wanted to do a heavy list (mechs and vehicles), you can either use sniper drones to pick off commissars fairly cheaply, or use our now-effective Sunsharks to destroy hordes. While they CAN kill heavy stuff, the coordination required basically means you have to be doing nothing to stop it for it to successfully happen.

>>53664371

but muh perfect conscript range and positioning every turn and time

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Painted my first Commander. What do you think? Submitting this to a local painting contest.

>>53666755
Ooh, I like the metallic wear-and-tear

>>53666755
funky

>>53659155
>the majority of infantry (T3)
Nice joke, pal.
In my experience T4 is way more common in most gaming shops.

Stormsurge looks like a strong unit to consider
What do you think some good loadouts for it will be?
ATS seems like no brainer.
Driver vs blast, not sure

>>53666862
Yeah, marines everywhere

>>53666899
Also necrons, drones, suits and eldar (scatter)bikes

>>53666788
Thanks. Necron Compound did all the work there.

>>53666862
It seems like Orkz, Nids and IG will be much more prominent this edition, with mass-infantry being far more viable under the new ruleset. I expect to see a lot of T3.

>>53667185
Orks are T4 too

Whats the biggest 8th edition winner aside from the humble gun drone

Why are riptides bad now?

>>53667481
They aren't? They're no appropriately costed, or maybe a tad too expensive. If they are indeed too expensive, expect cost to be dropped during one of the regular point updates.

How useful is to pick target lock?

>>53667640
It's for improved mobility. Like MT, it's bonus is also granted by (and doesn't stack with) Markerlights, so it's more useful for suits you expect to be constantly zipping around the deep-field away from ML support. Decent accuracy increase for high mobility suits. It also has the interesting effect of allowing advancing and firing RF weapons like the PR.

It isn't as almost ubiquitously useful as the ATS, but it's solid for what it does.

>>53667669

How bad is the penalty if you don't pick it? Which units are more likely to pick it? It seems like the Ghostkeel is a good candidate.

>>53667690
Have you read the rules for weapon types in 8e? If you haven't already, you should, as you'll find the answer to these and many other questions there.

By default, moving causes a -1 BS for heavy weapons, and advancing causes a -1 BS for assault weapons. TL cancels each of these penalties, and additionally allows RF weapons to Advance, albeit at -1 BS.

>>53666899
Driver is a joke. Early warning override creates a nice 12'' bubble where no-one is going to come or they get hell to pay.

>>53667447
In the Tau army? Vespids, Stealth Suits, and Hammerheads

Ghostkeels are really good now but they were good before too

>>53667481
Theyre not bad, but they are very expensive and don't really have a niche

Heavy Burst Cannon is good but there are lots of cheaper options to deal with infantry

You need to be taking a mortal wound every turn to get the most out of the Riptide, and your enemy WILL focus on killing it, so don't expect it to live more than 2 or 3 turns.

I think Stormsurge is just a better choice in almost every situation

>>53666899
1. ATS
2. VT - theres LOTS of flying units, even guys with Jump Packs have the Flying keyword
3. EWO or Shield Generator

Driver is really good for sitting behind your lines and taking down planes and other superheavies. Also does very well versus large 10+ squads of MEQs, which should be common in buff armies like Blood Angels and some CSM forces.

Blast Cannon is a more aggressive approach. S14 at close range is devastating but risky and hard to pull off. You'll need to make sure those 2 shots do the job, probably worth using command rerolls on them.
You'll usually be firing it at Medium range, which is still very good against most things. If you find yourself using Long range often then you should probably just bring the Driver instead.

>>53638374
i was led to believe that the whole of the farsight enclaves were from the fire caste

>>53642662
>in all of 40k
objective hyperbole

>>53642662
I would say Lord of Contagion is the worst model in 40k. He is strictly worse than Typhus; costs more and does less

>>53648155
>4th sphere
see: chaos
>5th sphere
shadowsun

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>>53669544
There's a lot of support staff in an expedition, anon.

>>53669544

All castes participate in the war in their own ways. It's just that the Fire Caste are the frontline soldiers.

>>53669544

Most of the military goes into logistics. Amateurs like to talk about tactics. Profesionals talk about logistics.

>>53647127
flying plates

>>53669648
Explains how the Imperium is peremanently fucked. You cannot establish proper logistics with the warp travel

>>53647127

Do they fly like a plane or are they stuck on the ground?

>>53666755
it might just be the angle but the wear and tear on it looks like dust

>>53666755

I love the idea of the metallic purple, but why did you give it that pose?

Are kroot... really bad?
I cant see a situation where I want to take a carnivore squad instead of fire warriors.

I might consider taking a Shaper + Krootox squad though. S7 rerolling 1s is legit, and S6 2 damage attacks in melee are not bad.

>>53671415
You take carnivores as a screen for your main force.

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I posted this list in the other thread, but nobody was actually alking about lists in that one. I'm trying to put something together mostly with bundles.

Idea here is the two mobile FW squads move forward with auras from the foreblade, darkstroder and pulse accelerators, while battleships harass and do battlesuit things.

Hopefully could move it up to 1.5k with Crisis teams from the SC box and a ghostkeel.

R8?

>>53671637
But their leadership is so bad, even with a shaper

wouldnt a line of fire warriors with an ethereal make more sense?

>>53671739
Looks like a decent high-mobility army. My one concern is the lack of answer to heavy infantry, like TEQs. Your only multi-wound are FBs (of which you have three and which can only potentially hit once a turn) and the MP on your coldstar, which you only have one of. What if your opponent brings a group or two of Sv2/3, W2/3 unit?

>>53671783
They have the ability to start ahead of your main force, and have higher M. Take them in MSU to minimize negative effects of morale. They're also substantially cheaper than FW.

Tau playing today?

>>53672898
Yup, versus KDK I hear.

How much butthurt do riptides still cause?

>>53673163
Mild to moderate, but only to Tau players. They're no close to appropriately costed, though maybe a bit too expensive right now.

Well, apparently the Tau pulled a last-minute win versus the KDK, largely helped by the Broadside's HRR killing both the Chaos Lord and Bloodthirster.

>>53674955
broadsides are legit as hell

>>53674955
It sounded like a really close game overall, which I'm glad with. It shows that pure melee stands a chance against Tau, but Tau aren't completely dead either

>>53675038
Precisely what I was hoping for as well. Solid, but not broken.

Interesting to see how strong the ability to fall back from combat and open up the enemy unit to shooting is. Especially with tougher battlesuits.

Broadside had a good show, but charging it with a solo character was pretty retarded.

>>53675527
To be fair, the overwatch shot was very lucky on the part of the Broadside. But yeah, I expect falling back is going to be crucial to us to survive in the more melee-centric 8e. Stuff that blocks fall back is going to be dangerous.

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I crunched the numbers for Photon Grenades on Overwatch to see how many grenades you want to throw on overwatch to reliably get the -1 debuff up

Throwing 1 grenade is a 44% chance
Throwing 2 grenades is 69% chance
Throwing 3 grenades is an 83% chance
Throwing 4 grenades is a 90% chance
etc.

I assumed 0 markerlights or other reroll effects

>>53676160
Can't you only toss 1 grenade anyway? Unless you have multiple units

>>53676160
So is this intended to inform maybe not using grenades on overwatch if you have a ton of units all within Greater Good range of each other? Because each individual unit of fire warriors can only throw one.

As a tau player looking over the khorne units, one thing i'm confused about is why the khorne berserkers could only fight once in that combat phase, in their abilities it says the unit can fight twice in the fight phase so why couldn't they fight the devilfish or the crisis suits again.

they said something about charging but i don't see any of that in the berzerker rules it just says they can fight twice in the fight phase.

>>53676229
Correct

I wanted to show with numbers that sacrificing a pulse rifle/carbine/etc. or two is worth it to get that extra chance at debuffing your enemy.

If you have to choose between 10 or 2x5 this may sway you to run 2x5.

>>53676432
and its a strict -1, regardless of hits.

whew, 12" range means you can always throw one against charging units. pretty cool. might MIGHT make the unit able to retreat out of combat the next phase. but could also be good for a unit supporting a kroot line.

>>53676630
>Stealth Suits are -1 to hit all the time, both shooting and fighting
>Use them as your frontline because 3+, cover, 2W, T4, bretty gud by tau standards
>Park 2 or 3 units with grenades within 6" to throw grenades at chargers
>enemies have -2 to hit in fight phase
>stealth suits can fly
>on your turn just fall back and shoot
>repeat

Not bad

>>53676265

Because a unit that charges can only fight against a unit it charged against that turn.

You can declare multi-unit charges of course, but the Khoi England player didn't.

>>53676821

Fucking autocorrect lol.

The Khorne player*

>>53676821
that's what they said, but i don't see that in the rules

>>53676821
>>53676881
Oh wait, I see it in choose targets,

Models that charged this turn can only target enemy units that they charged in the previous phase.

that explains it.

so had the berserkers been charged by two units, they'd have to suffer hits once, then could use the counter attack strategy to attack the second unit before it gets to attack, and if the bezerkers survive that they can attack the initial unit again. secondly had he multi charged, he'd have been able to activate them again, but only hit the devilfish since that would have probably been the target of his multi charge.

wow he really did fuck it up by going for the kroot and only the kroot.

>>53676265

Thing is, in that first combat the charging unit can only fight the unit it charged, even if you successfully moved into b2b contact with another unit as well, you need to have declared them the target of the charge as well.

This is what prevents you from charging a lone survivor, consolidating around him, and killing a nearby squad without giving them a chance to overwatch.

It actually is very relevant for Tau: if he had declared the crisis suits as targets of the charge, they would be allowed to overwatch them and, if successful, could have gone on to overwatch other things. Because he didn't declare them the subject of the charge, they used their greater good supporting fire ability to do so, which prevents them from doing overwatch again even if they were charged directly by something else.

>>53677091
>It actually is very relevant for Tau:

Yeah that's why i'm trying to break it all down just for when i do encounter this scenario when playing. because i saw that. since over watch against targeted units is free and the greater good over watch isn't.

and since so much stuff can fly its pretty nice that you can just get the hell out of dodge and just keep shooting.

Ive had great success using 3x Flamer Crisis Suits (207 points I think?) with a gravity inhibitor drone as my charge line.

If they take a shorter range charge they get hit by 9d6 S4 hits, which usually kills 5-6 MEQs. Sometimes the charge will still fail because of the Grav Drone.

If they take a long charge (>8") to avoid flamers then the D3" reduction to charge roll will bring them to a 9-11" charge, which is a really low success rate. Using command points to reroll their 9-11" charge is pretty awesome.

Sunshark Bomber is... amazing

Try one in your next game

>>53677443
What'd it do?

>>53646667
What's this for something?

>>53678153
It's an old strat which may be making a comeback where you use devilfish as a wall to block people charging your FW.

>>53678331
Thanks for explaining.

I'm the anon from the main thread working on the excel sheet. When it's more filled in, is that something people may want a copy of? Additionally, are there any specific calculations or matchups you'd be interested in seeing? Right now I'm using Light/Medium/Heavy Infantry and Vehicles as target-practice, with the extra Super-Heavy Vehicle (Guardsman/Tactical Marine/Terminator/Landspeeder/Rhino/Landraider/Knight, respectively), and calculating average wounds/turn, and then points/wounds/turn.

>>53679328

Some tau staples I guess.
Riptides because duh, gotta tear those down.

>>53679328
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1h0hk_IdJ7fivDEjMiIpKM5yMMB8HTm64lZHuKdLZCIU/edit?usp=sharing

Set up a google doc to show off progress. You can find the formula information to the right. Will work on populating it more.

>>53679846

Include some fun shit like quad gun commander for maximum wound pushing

gun drones are supposedly the most efficient per point
have fun with that too

>>53680382
>>53680429
Will add both! Currently working on Broadside. Unsure whether I should treat them weapon-by-weapon, or sum their value for overall points/wound.

>>53680429
Yeah, Gun Drones are pretty dang tasty. Even without a DC, they're remarkably points-efficient at dishing damage, given their dual carbines. They have the downside of only being able to shoot the nearest enemy, but the upsides of improved movement and durability over standard soldiers. While you wouldn't want them to be your entire force (target prioritization is important), they are fantastic value for mowing down chaff, only really beaten by a buffed FW blob.

>>53679846
Interesting findings:
-Commanders are fantastic bang for their buck. Crisis aren't bad value, but Commander are better.
-Buffed FW blob is very potent, has the advantage of sheer volume.
-Gun Drones surprisingly good. While they can't prioritize targets, their raw cost-per-wound is very appealing, and they boast better maneuverability/durability than standard FW.
-HRR hits hard. At 60" range, only firing its HRR, the Broadside is close to as cost-efficient as a team of dual-fusion crisis outside of melta range, and clearly has range and safety that they do not. The melta-range fusion will do the job faster and cheaper, but not near as safely.

>>53679846
>>53681021
Any stats on the Hammerhead? While the Railgun is cool, I'm wondering if it or the Ion cannon are worthwhile

>>53681283
It's on the to-do list. My feeling is that Railgun will be better versus huge things while the Ion Cannon is more rounded.

>>53681021
Just finished riptide calculations.

HBC>>>IA

>>53681283
Hammerhead stats are done.
Railgun: Solid>>>Ion Cannon

>>53681935
this is for hitting single model entities though right, light vehicles and monsters.

>>53682522
The IC is a bit better than Submunitions vs light/medium infantry and much better vs heavy, but Solid beats it versus vehicles unless IC is overcharging.

Even though IC beats Railgun versus infantry, it still does so very inefficiently. You're likely to be killing a single infantry a turn with it, and at much greater cost than anti-infantry alternatives.

The main strength of the IC is that with the Overcharge, it can be at least halfway effective against the vast majority of targets. Unfortunately, it isn't great against ANY of those targets.

Getting back into this game after not having time when I was younger, have a few questions.

1. In the faction focus for Tau, they mention Cadre Fireblades being able to use volley fire to get Sniper Drones an extra attack, however, it doesn't quite say that in the Index. This an oversight and pulse rifles and longshot pulse rifles are the same? Or did they screw up in the preview?

2. When making an army, can you take detachments from different armies? IE, could I take a Tau army of about 1800 points, then two auxiliary detachments that are each a Vindicare Assassin?

3. Also related to army building, can you keep taking auxiliary detachments and go into negative command points? Not saying I have a good reason to as of now, but haven't seen a reason why not.

4. I'm assuming its poor wording, but with the Crisis suits when you can "replace" the burst cannon with up to 3 weapons, you can just keep the burst cannon and add 2 more weapons right? Because otherwise the wording makes it sound like i'd have to repay for that burst cannon when I take more stuff.

>>53682733
1. That's a good catch. My guess is a mistake was made on one side or the other, more likely an error in the index given how specific the FF was.
2. All units must share a faction keyword. So Imperium can ally Assassins with Imperial Knights, but we're restricted to T'au Empire.
3. This has been discussed a bit, and will likely be FAQ'd. Presently there is no statement that you cannot do this, but it is likely unintended. Also not a good idea.
4. You can replace the burst-cannon with another burst cannon. Take note that the point-cost listed for the crisis suit (42) does NOT include any of its wargear, not even the standard-issue. So the default 10pt BC isn't included in that cost, so it doesn't matter if you "replace" it with another BC for the same price.

>>53675959
how many of those are around? I know of Wyches, but they hold in only infantry

>>53682874
I haven't done an extensive sweep of other factions yet, but I recall Khorne, Slaanesh, and I think some Eldar flavor all having some version.

>>53682800
I just know another company (FFG) makes numerous mistakes in their articles, with lots of rules mistakes that are usually edited after rabid fans correct them in the forums. Also, from what I read, its that they must all share the same keyword within each detachment, not within your whole battle forged army.

>>53682705
can you do over charged ion cannon?

>>53682930
Page 214 of core rulebook, matched play. "All the units in a matched play army ... must have at least one faction keyword in common"

You explicitly cannot ally across factions in matched play.

>>53682962
You mean a cost-analysis for while it's active? Sure, though I'm taking a break for a bit. (The average-wound stats are already up there)

>>53683141
i'm also not sure why the ion cannon seems to be better when not overcharged in your list.

>>53683332
What specific cases are you looking at? Ion Cannon beats Solid Shot versus infantry mostly because the damage of the solid shot is wasted against the low-wound targets. Against vehicles, Railgun takes the cake. Overcharged Ion Cannon can approach those damage outputs, but can't beat them.

>>53683417
against infantry Ion cannon goes up to d6 against groups of 10 or more.

>>53683417
also ion cannon is 3 damage per hit on multi wound infantry.

>>53683616
Ooh, I totally missed that. Added a new line to represent overcharged vs large unit.
>>53683624
This is accurately represented already.

>>53683698
>>53683616
>>53683624
Added new cost-line for Overcharged IC+2*GD versus large infantry, which makes it actually halfway decent at it. Still much more expensive than alternatives, but it gets the job done and it's a literal tank, so there's that.

IC is the better all-rounder, Railgun is the better anti-armor, submunitions sucks.

>>53683771
*Submunitions is passable versus light infantry but is woefully inefficient at it cost-wise. So take Railgun to hunt armor, and swap to Submunitions if the only thing in range is a group of mooks.

>>53683790
Thoughts on railgun longstrike+2 IC Hammerheads as heavy weapons in a mech list?

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A bit of a random question, but the thought just struck me. Has anyone ever seen a battlesuit or drone painted with the typical black/dark grey sections painted a color other than black/grey?

I feel like I might have seen a few metallic steel versions, but it feels like this is something I've never really seen anyone deviate from.

Is it a fluff thing? Is it just that any other color would look bad? I'm curious how this ended up being so consistent across the board.

>>53683866
I'll need to run numbers on Longstrike, but the bonus on wound-rolls specifically benefits railguns to a large degree, as it means twice as many results cause the mortal wounds.So Ionheads get a nice buff, but not as much as Railheads. However, it looks like Ionheads are solid to begin with, so I don't think taking two with a Longstrike would be a bad idea, as long as you have enough other stuff (lighter stuff to keep enemies off your tanks, anti-armor).


Also, it's looking like support-systems are the way to go. ATS tends to result in similar damage output or better than adding another weapon, generally at a fraction of the price.

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>>53684029

I've seen colours from time to time, thing is it's very clear the shins are supposed to be the same colour as the support struts and the joints, and painting them anything other than a very neutral colour makes them stand out in a weird way.

I'm aiming for a lighter grey using Mechanicus Standard as a base.

>>53684260
Yeah. I was just planning out color schemes and it just sort of dawned on me as a pattern.

I was personally considering going for a dark brown alongside a more red color scheme, though I'm not sure how it would turn out.

Going back to a previous question, if Cadre Fireblade buffs longshot pulse rifles, do pulse accelerator drones effect them too?

>>53684320
Pulse Accelerator calls out T'au Empire Infantry. Drones do not have the infantry type.

>>53684143
Kinda planning a mech list with breachers in fish, skirmish kroot to hold up the enemy, and the triple hammerhead including longstrike. I'd need to buy another IC hammerhead and another fish, but it could be done.

>>53681510

yeah figured as much. IA is trash

>>53684391
I missed some things and did more calculations. IA isn't terribly efficient, but with overcharge it's decent against basically everything. It's the jack-of-all-trades-master-of-none option.

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>>53684029
i tried to do a tiger stripe pattern on my crisis suits.

>>53684391
>>53684408
See calcs here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1h0hk_IdJ7fivDEjMiIpKM5yMMB8HTm64lZHuKdLZCIU/edit?usp=sharing

I just bought a broadside and I really want to give him the rail rifle but consensus online says missile pods are better option. Ideas? Can I make a rifle suit work, or are they strictly circumstantial?

>>53684415
the firewarriors themselves are olive drab armor with khaki clothes, and pathfinders have same coloured armor but grey clothes.

>>53684433
we don't know what the new meta will be, but if its infantry then the missile pods, if its tanks and monstrous creatures then the heavy rail rifle.

heavy rail rifle being two shots and not twin linked is huge.

>>53684433
That consensus is old news; in 7e, missiles are hands-down the winner. However, 8e is actively in the process of dropping (all rules leaked, pre-orders available, officially launches in a week and a half), and there we see that the Heavy Rail Rifle is actually /really good/ as a vehicle-killer now.

Calculations have been being done on all of this stuff>>53684421

>>53684433
Also: Magnetize everything. You should magnetize your broadside arms to be able to swap between the two.

>>53684433
You're playing the most heavily nerfed army of 8th currently, build him with what you think looks cool-and the railrifle is the coolest weapon in 40k. Or magnetise, >>53684485 is right

>>53684490
>>53684485
Ah magnetizing. I was afraid of that answer. I'll give it a whirl then. I was just afraid to do it in fear of accidentally ruining $50.00 of plastic.
>>53684469
>>53684421
Thanks for this!

>>53684605
If you're playing T'au, you really should get in the habit of magnetizing. With our vehicles and suits especially, there are always going to be a set of options with no clear "best", and you'll find yourself wanting to switch things up based on the list you're building. It's a pain to start, but it gets easier.

>>53684605
its extremely easy. and worth while, especially if you want to use crisis suits.

there's nothing more fun than swapping out weapon options on a crisis suit after you've magnetized a whole bunch of weapons and hard points.

>>53671118
I had a lot of trouble posing it how I wanted to. Lots of fins and crap kept snapping off while I was gluing it together, eventually just said fuck it and put it as stable as I could get it.

Excel-anon here, re-did section for crisis/commander suits. I'm concerned by how much more efficient commander suits are, spending 30pts for +2BS and +1 weapon.

>>53685623

Commander also has more wounds, better WS, and can hide behind chaff

anyone know if you can build breachers from the start collecting box?

>>53685922
You can. It comes with 10 FW bodies with the parts to make them Strike with Pulse or Carbine, or Breacher with Blasters.

>>53685932
cool, i was worried that they had packed the old fire warrior kit in with the box but i guess my fears were unfounded

So what are people thinking as the best support system?
Most of them seem pretty solid.

Counterfire+EWO to just massacre deepstrikers trying to charge.
ATS is all around good.
Etc...

Only thing kinda meh is multitracker since you can already get the buff pretty easily elsewhere

>>53686011
I think the Multitracker might be nice for a Railside. At long ranges it'll only be firing one weapon anyway, and since it does have such a long range there will often be times it's engaging something that you can't reach with your markerlights, or that won't be in range to focus fire with other units

>>53686011
They all seem to have their place.
ATS - Basically everything can benefit from it, but it's best on weapons with low natural AP (FB AP-5 isn't a huge improvement). MP and BC are prime picks.

Countefire - Wall versus assault

EWO - Guard against backline-drops. Good on Plasma Rifles, due to the synergy with rapid fire range.

MT - Use it on drop-troops you expect to be running around enemy deep-field away from ML support. Very cheap.

SI/SG - Used to give suits more durability. I'm planning to use SI on FB suits to hopefully let them survive a bit longer.

TL - Good for more mobile troops. Main effect overlaps with ML, but like MT is used for doing stuff out of the sight of your MLs. Interestingly lets you advance and shoot with Pulse Rifles.

VT - So many things are flyers this edition.

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How useful is the Velocity Tracker for railsides? Which are the best anti-aircraft platforms in this edition?

>>53686057
I was thinking for stuff like that you might as well plop down an ethereal or something for an aura buff
for more than just the one suit and use the freed slot elsewhere.

>>53686078
Yeah, VT might be one to watch too.
Anchored Stormsurge with an ethereal then hits on a 2+ with rerolls 1 against fly targets.
Which if you also add ATS means a whole lot of shots and a whole boatload of hits and wounds.

>>53686112
every single crisis suit and drone in the army and even a riptide and tank can charge fliers in combat. it might just end up being that your best option against a flier is to ram it with a devilfish. which is great.

>>53686112
Basically everything can benefit from VT. Missile-suits with VT for lighter flyers, Railsides with VT for heavier ones.

>>53686179
Ethereal only buffs Infantry and Battlesuits. Stormsurge isn't classified as a Battlesuit, and as such does not benefit from its buffs.

>>53686348
crisis suits with plasmas for shooting assault infantry with jump packs.

>>53686348
>Stormsurge isn't classified as a Battlesuit
huh, neat

Tweeked my armored company list a bit more, I think smart missile systems were too much of a good option to pass up so i gave up a rail rifle path finder and two seeker missiles to get them on some hammerheads. I also decided to give longstrike a rail gun and give the ion cannons to the two regular hammerheads. Hitting on 2s and wounding on 2s against most targets is hard to give up with that rail gun. You can almost pretty much save your command reroll to reroll that damage dice.

225 = Longstrike with smart missile systems Rail gun

127 = devilfish with gun drones
42 = Cadre fireblade with marker light
40 = 5 firewarrior team
48 = 5 path finders with pulse accelerator drone

127 = devilfish with gun drones
43 = 5 firewarrior team with marker light
44 = 5 pathfinders wtih ion rifle

127 = devilfish with gun drones
43 = 5 firewarrior team with marker light
59 = 5 pathfinders with rail rifle

212 = Hammerhead with Ion cannon and sms

212 = hammerhead with Ion cannon and sms

171 = hammerhead with railgun and gundrones

1500

holy shit i just realized how great the bonding knife ritual actually is.

it turns the worst possible roll result into an auto pass.

for a crisis suit team of 3 it means you can never lose any models to battle shock since even if two crisis suits are killed 5+2 is still equal to the last suits leadership, and the 6 means he passes it.

even for stealth suits you auto pass as long as you don't lose your shas'vre and you haven't lost more than 3 stealth suits.

>>53677091
Wait what? If you use For The Greater Good you can't overwatch even if they charge you directly?

>>53687220
yes, even still that's not so bad i learned in the game they played earlier today

since even they consolidate into other units a charging unit can only attack unit it actually declares a charge against. so if nothing else can charge a unit that might be lapped into combat you might as well overwatch anyways. and you'll still get to fight and if he does declare and you shoot them and he isn't able to overlap that second unit then that second unit can still use for the greater good later.

so if the enemies all start charging a single unit, just write that unit off and use for the greater good its not like they can bog most of your army down in close combat anyways.

If an enemy unit declares a charge against 2 units of Fire Warriors, how many times can they overwatch?

Enemy unit declares multi-charge against Fire Warrior units A and B

A resolves Overwatch
B resolves Overwatch
A uses For the Greater Good for unit B
B uses For the Greater Good for unit B

Would this be legal?

>>53687681

B uses For the Greater Good for unit A*

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>>53684029
I'm trying a color scheme inspirated by ZOE/Yoji Shinkawa.
I'm not set on witch blue I will use yet.

>>53683866
Armoured Strike-Battalion Detachment
225-Longstrike, SMS, Railgun, Warlord
180-Quad-Fusion Commander, 2x Shield Drones

60-10x Kroot
60-10x Kroot
99-10x Breachers, Guardian drone, Shield Drone, Markerlight
99-10x Breachers, Guardian drone, Shield Drone, Markerlight

127-Devilfish-gun drones
127-Devilfish-gun drones

40-Pathfinders
40-Pathfinders

212-Hammerhead, Ion cannon, SMS
212-Hammerhead, Ion cannon, SMS

1475 points, Commander was just a way to burn points since this is most of my army barring firewarriors and my suits. CP will probably just be used for Longstrike rerolls, at least until actual uses for them are released. Anyone think of any better uses of ~160 points if i swap the commander for Darkstrider? Or should i just mimic >>53686882 even more than i already have i swear i came up with it independently and bring another troop in a fish?

>>53687681
I'd say yes. Unit A resolves overwatch for itself then uses for the greater good for unit B, and B does the same.

How to kitbash a pulse accelerator drone? I was thinking of using a stealth team objective marker as the "body" and adding a stealth team drone controller on the back.

>>53684376
Longstrike is a hq choice now so you can have 4 hammerheads in batallion.

>>53689003
i only have three though

>>53684143
Longstrike buffs hit rolls on nearby Hammerheads, not wound rolls

Longstrike has a personal boost to wound rolls versus Vehicles and Monsters

>>53685623
Mhm

A lot of people have mentioned that Commanders are more cost effective than Crisis Suits

I think Crisis Suits are still going to have some niches:

1. Deep Strike. Dropping a lot of firepower anywhere on the board and putting a lot of damage into something. Expensive (~300pt) but you can do a lot of damage before they take you down. You might even get lucky and survive for another round of shooting!
Also great for capturing objectives.

2. Anti-infantry Overwatch kings. Flamers are really good and inexpensive - a squad of 3 CS with 3 flamers is only 207 points and does 9D6 S4 hits on overwatch. I mentioned earlier in this thread that I've had great success putting Grav Inhibitors near this kind of squad.
Tau don't have a lot of options for flamers and I think Crisis Suits are the best choice for flamers since they have BS4+.

3. Defensive line. With stim injectors and shield generators you end up with a unit that's 3+/4++/6i T5 3W. Back them up with an Ethereal giving them another 6+ ignore to help with bolter fire and then some drones to help with heavy weapons fire. You can also add in a squad of infantry nearby to FTGG some photon grenades for -1 hit.
This is probably the best defense that Tau can muster and it's worth exploring since we are dying to melee so quickly.

>>53689283
Commanders do the 1st point better.
2nd point is relative. Flamers can be bypassed with over 8 inch charge and if your drone is in range to reduce charges it is in range of pistols or what ever ranged weapons they might have.
Soaking charges might be the thing crisis do this edition.

>>53686011
People will play around EWO, but it does prevent 9" charges. It does almost nothing to mitigate enemy shooting. I don't think the EWO is worth the opportunity cost here.

ATS is really good with any high volume shots of AP0 or AP1 weapon. CIB, BC, SMS, Flamers

Drone Controller is hard to justify but I've seen some discussion about putting it on 1 Crisis or 1 Stealth team and buffing some gun drones or sniper drones.

VT is amazing because there are so many flying units. Give it to every Riptide and Stormsurge and spend the first 1 or 2 turns blowing everything out of the skies.

MT is bad on smaller units because they'll be in range to hit markerlight targets. It's bad on big units like Ghostkeels and Stormsurges because you will rarely ever focus all your guns on a single target.

SI/SG - Might be good. Time will tell if Tau can play defensively.

CDS gets the most value in a situation where you can fire multiple overwatch per turn or you have a ton of guns, which means you don't want it on a unit that is going to shoot through FTGG. Stormsurge might be a good pick if you can keep it within 6" of your frontline.

TL is good on Riptide and... that's about it? Can't see anyone else benefiting from it.

>>53687681
I think the way its written, yes this is how it would work.

Scenario:
A block of 2 units of 10 FW, A & B gets charged.
A overwatch
B overwatch
A overwatch FTGG
B overwatch FTGG
Each squad shoots 20 shots because 30" RF1, for a total of 80 shots at S4. Pretty good.

Now what if instead of FW we had Breachers and a Pulse Drone to give them 11" close range?
Instead of S4 AP0 we have S6 AP-2.

We can add a Fireblade and shoot 80 medium range for S5 AP1 (heavy bolter stats).

Imagine charging and taking 80 heavy bolter snapshots.

This is how we play Tau, folks.

>>53689368
Anchored down stormsurge hits on 5+ on overwatch. With CDS that's 55% hit chance. On a similar note drone controller should work too on overwatch.

>>53689508
OW always hits on 6+, it can never gain modifiers

>>53689493
Neither Fireblade nor pulse accelerator works with breachers.

>>53689493
I'm starting to think about using lines to block enemies.

First line: KROOT -pure meatshield and annoyance

Second line: breachers - sweet overwatch

Third line: FW - they overwatch with FTGG as soon as breachers get charged.

All this with a few well positioned pulse accelerator drones, and gun drones for added dakka/more ablative wounds.

>>53689527
Youre right. Let me rethink this scenario.

2x12 FW with a Cadre (234 points)
~24 hits at S4 AP0
Point/hit = 9.75

2x10 Breachers (160 points)
~13.3 hits at S5 AP1
Points per hit = 12.03

The breachers will do ~1 more damage against 2+ or 3+ saves or against T5 targets. They are roughly equal on T4/3+ or T4/4+

About the same damage output but it seems like breachers are more cost effective.

Currently have 24 fire warriors in my army. Should I get a devilfish to add some manoeuvrability to the army, or another 12 fire warriors? With all this talk of hordes in 8th it's tempted to just go with more pulse rifles.

>>53689283
Even if Crisis have niches, it's weird that the option to have a more expensive single dude is so much more efficient than simply having three cheaper dudes, at least by such a margin.

>>53690116
Devilfish are solid even by themselves now, they can put out 12 S5 shots (Burst and SMS) and will be great objective takers.

>>53690116
Another 12 FW. I'd suggest magnetizing them to get pulse blasters available when you want to use Breachers. I did it and I don't regret it!

>>53690463
2 gun drones puts out 8 shots too, equal to SMS. They use the fish's BS, share range, and are assault guns allowing you to move and fire without penalty and advance and fire with -1. Drones might survive the deat of the fish or you can detach them to soak wounds for other units. And you save 24p with it.

Darkstriders ability doesnt say "until your next shooting phase" or anything like that.

Does that mean it lasts for the rest of the game? Does it stack if I use it on the same unit in 2+ shooting phases?

>>53689527
why?

>>53690631
Because pulse blaster isn't listed on those abilities. Either it's an oversight or tau isn't allowed to have nice things anymore.

>>53690579
Don't they have to fire at the closest unit though? That's very open to manipulation by the other player.

>>53690631
Breachers have Pulse Blasters, which are not on the list of weapons those two things buff.

Let's see if my 4chan hates my phone.

I played against TS with Mangus, featuring horrors. I brought a monster force with 3 tides, 2 SS and a commander.

I lost, but we both threw big punches at each other. It's pretty much impossible to lock Tau in CC, but it's probably easy to fall for the "stand still and shoot everything " trap, which eventually cost me the game.

However, we forgot that horrors only cast spells on 1 dice, not 2, so that would have limmited his Smite-spamming. So it might be a bit unfair to say to much from that one game.

>>53690701
fuck. It says pulse weapons doesn't it? :( or just pulse carbine and pulse rifles?

>>53690697
As long as they are attached to the vehicle their wargear is counted as being the vehicle's wargear. So the SMS "only" gives you range and cover&los ignoring.

Breachers are pretty insane. 10x S6 AP2 guns for 80 points makes them a perfect counter-charge unit if you can get them within 5". Add in a Darkstrider and you can find yourself wounding on 2s against anything with T4.

Absorb the charge with something durable (finally a good use for SI/SG Crisis Suits?) or expendable (Kroot?) and then next turn your breachers can shotgun blast them right in the face.

>>53690766
It does not say "pulse weapons"

It says pulse rifles, pistols, and carbines

>>53690766
It specifically lists what guns are buffed. Blasters are not on that list.

>>53690778
High potential damage, but needing to get within 5" is problematic, especially with their lack of competent melee. If they don't outright kill their target, they're likely to be charged in return. Further, there are plenty of targets which can reliably make a 6" charge due to rerolls and such, denying you your best shooting. They're decent at their niche, but they aren't a go-to for troops.

>>53690821
You dont expect them to survive, but rather keep them behind the front line but in range to counterfire the next turn.

Can you think of another infantry unit that can put out 10 S6 AP2 shots for 80 points? Thats really insane.

>Further, there are plenty of targets which can reliably make a 6" charge due to rerolls and such, denying you your best shooting.
I am saying you should not have them in charge range in the first place. Use them as a riposte after absorbing the charge with a different unit.

>>53690869
Make that 20, they are assault 2.

>>53690869
>Can you think of another infantry unit that can put out 10 S6 AP2 shots for 80 points? Thats really insane.
at very low distance. you need to count in a devilfish or they won't do much in the game

>>53690907
Even better

>>53690930
>at very low distance.
Which doesnt matter if you are using them as a cleanup squad after an enemy charges

Try to keep up senpai

>>53690821
Yeah, it's going to be very rare to get a chanse to use the closest range profile, and when ypu do it's usually a last-ditch attempt to stop a unit that will charge you the next turn. However, even with the medium range profile, which has a more reasonable range of 10'' (close to the rapid fire range of most faction's guns), their guns are good, having the same strength as rifles and carbines but better ap, and at max range they're still equal against most infantry models. The main downside is that they don't benefit from the buffs that affect rifles and carbines (like fireblade or pulse accelerator). Rifles are obviously better for long range, but at short range blasters and carbines both compare favorably, as you can shoot and advance with them, making you more mobile. Carbines have higher maximum range but blasters are more devastating when up close.

2 Commanders with 4 FB each is 320 pt
>8 FB shots at BS2+, usually rerolling 1 because markerlights
>Reliably land 8 hits per shooting phase

3 Crisis Suits with 3 FB each is 315 pt
>9 fb shot at BS4+, rerolling 1
>Reliably land 5 hits per shooting phase

So for 5 more points you get 3 more FB hits, +1T, no chance of ever taking a morale test, the ability to hide behind units, 6W per model, +3W total.

Can we conclude that Crisis Suits are strictly worse than Commanders?

>>53691553
3 crisis suits have no chance of ever taking a moral test either.

since bonding knife ritual, they pass moral test on 6's,

which means the worst you can roll is a 5. 5 plus two models lost is 7 which is a crisis suits moral.

so you either unit wipe or no test.

>>53691553
that said i agree that commanders are better in every role except filling force organization slots and even then as long as you meet your minimums you can just get another detachment.

>>53690962
In that specific case, they are valuable. However, that will likely come up at most a couple times per game, whereas the pulse rifles on Strike Team will provide consistent value.

>>53691553
Check the calculations>>53684421
At present, commanders are currently a much better deal. Also, ATS/MT are worth the points, versus a fourth weapon, and may be worth it versus a third on crisis.

>>53691890
Yeah. If anything, it'd be easier to just take the Supreme Command detatchment for the extra space for 3 HQs and get a command point out of the deal

>>53691937
with added bonus of giving a command point.

What's a good bunker for coldsteel?
40" movement is downright ridiculous but even the base leaves everyone else in the dust.
I don't want to have my commander sitting out in the open waiting for her life-virginity to be taken. Would be kind of a waste of 134 points.

>>53692042
You could run it alongside flyers, like Sunsharks? Does that work? Can you hide characters behind flyers?

>>53692042
just any of the tables terrain. you can pretty much choose where you hide

>>53692042
>>53692071
I think characters can hide behind anything, as long as something else is closer.

So a Sunshark seems like a good idea. Plus it can also detach the Interceptor drones and they can keep up with the Coldstar easily.

Honestly it'd be neat if they just let the Coldstar buy interceptor drones in place of tactical drones.

>>53691553
Yup
Dem commanders

>>53692176
But if I take those I can't take both +1ap and 4++.

>>53691860
Unless there is other modifiers like hemlock or harlequin stuff etc. Commanders never take morale tests.

>>53692674
Circumstantial modifiers can mean that crisis have a 1/6 chance of losing a body if they lost two already in one turn. While a minus for them versus Commander, it's a fairly small one due to the small chance of it coming up.

>>53692674
yeah but those are special units. i don't know how common negative moral abilities will be, but in a usual case its not usually a problem for most suit teams.

>>53691935
>In that specific case, they are valuable. However, that will likely come up at most a couple times per game, whereas the pulse rifles on Strike Team will provide consistent value.

I disagree. Given the amount of 16"+ movement units, run+charge units, and deep strike units, breachers can consistently be in range for at least medium fire.

You dont want an army full of them but taking one squad of 10 is only 80 points and adds a lot of counter-melee power.

Tau have lots of good long range units, we need something that can brace and riposte, and breachers come in to that role perfectly. If all they do is shoot once then they've already gotten their value.

>>53691553
As specialized tank hunters the Crisis Suits are definitely worse.

But crisis suits can fill many other roles in the army, like defensive walls that can retreat and fire, and cheap flamer carriers.

>>53693063
I think Gun drones might be better for that role of defensive wall though

>>53693112
What about Kroot Hounds? As far as cheap annoyances go, three units are less than 150 points and can definitely drag down an enemy advance for a turn or two. pity about the models, but thats what chaos warhound proxies are for

>>53693112
It's definitely an interesting sell point. 3D6 Str 4 auto hits is nice.

At 69pts though...

You can get 8 Gun Drones. Of which 5-6 will hit. But it's DAM 5 and has better range.

>>53693341
Str5 not DAM5.

I just realized that the railguns mortal wounds affect the unit not the model, so on a roll of 6, the rail gun actually can kill two heavy infantry models.

I guess the railgun over penetrates and goes through two infantry or it causes an explosion which damages a guy nearby.

good stuff.

>>53693341
Yeah, that was my thought with it. Better strength and cheaper means you'll get a similar amount of firepower on Overwatch, and it'll also be more wounds in general, even if they are less durable overall.

>>53693213
With their shitty survivability and ld they will hold for the fight phase and run off.

>>53693442
I think it could potentially kill even more. If you're targeting 1 wound models, you could kill 1 with the railgun shot itself, and then up to 3 more with the mortal wounds.

You could fire this at a marine squad and have it plow through 4 of them with luck, I think

>>53693562
i didn't even think about targeting it at single wound infantry models.

but against certain ones that's an excellent point, but its still looking for a 1/6 on a damage roll.

but i love rail guns now.

>>53693562
apparently thanks to chart anons work it seems like the solid shot is equal to subs against meqs, but superior to the sub munition against teqs. and only inferior against geqs.

>>53693640
Yeah, I'd imagine for guard the extra hit potential is better than mortal wounds, but plowing through marines or terminators seems devastating.

>>53693597
I'd imagine it's even better with longstrike

>>53693695
Longstrike gets +to wound against vehicles and monsters only. Guess it can kill 1.5 piranhas, kans etc.

>>53693695
not really since its on a damage roll and long strike only has bonused to wound.

that said you can always use a command re roll on a damage die, and considering that most of the time long strike will hit on a 2+ reroll 1s, and wound on a 2+ and the enemy won't get any sort of armor save and it takes place after the invuln save. its pretty safe to spend a command point on a damage die on long strike.

to almost ensure he does some damage.

i think i'll re roll any 1 or 2 because the chance for that 6 is too much to resist.

of course its all situational.

>>53693757
True, so not a sure thing there

>>53693766
No, it's definitely on the wound roll. Longstrike is better at getting headshots, just not collaterals, it seems.

>>53694022
I agreed with you. he gets +1 to wound tanks and monters and gives +1 to hit to hammerheads nearby and other than stats thats it, but those are both good abilities.

I'm saying use a Command point to reroll his damage die because he's almost guaranteed to get those headshots.

while if you were to use him with an ion cannon i'd say reroll his over charge d6 roll if you have marker lights.

>coldstar commander and sunshark bomber
>fly around the field together just killing infantry
>plane cant be charged by ground units
>commander cant be charged because plane is in the way
>cant shoot commander because he is a character
>shooting plane is -1 to hit

top kek

>>53694079
No, what I'm saying is that the headshot thing for 1d3 mortal wounds is on a 6 on the to-wound roll, not the damage roll. So Longstrike's +1 to the wound roll against tanks helps and makes it on a 5 or 6

>>53694100
yeah i know.

I KNOW.

that's why i'd reroll the damage roll if its a 1 or 2, on most targets 3 wounds is more than enough but if there's a chance to damage the guy next to him and your not killing that 3 wound model might as well take that reroll to get the extra six.

I'm not talking shit about any modifiers, that must be somebody else.

>>53694097
That's what I call a real wingman

>>53693442
Chart-anon here. I specifically took that into account when calculating railgun damage. It really helps versus smaller targets.

>>53694151
I think I just mixed up what you were trying to say with it. Sorry.

>>53694232
no problems.

I was also looking at it and tau aren't bad at stacking command points too. i mean about 250~ or so points for a minimum battalion detachment with about 15 infantry and 2 infantry hq. and then you can take whatever else you want in whatever numbers if you have about two of them and you save points for every commander you use. 2 commanders an ethereal and a cadre fireblade and 6 small squads of troops isn't that bad of a core even for 1500 point games. about 600-800 points for that sort of set up and the rest can be spent on anything else. even upgrades if you want to take more commander battle suits. and that will ensure 9 CP

>>53694097
>commander cant be charged because plane is in the way
Move over fish of fury, it's time for shark of savagery!