/STG/ - Star Trek General

>>53544385
I take it that that's a shot from ENT?

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We were talking about erasing holodecks from existence in the last thread. Is there some element of Star Trek you'd particularly like to expunge? Not whole shows or movies, mind you, but something in them.

>>53544724
Magic

>>53544724
>Warp Lizards
>The Prime Directive condones genocide
>Borg Queen

>>53544738
>Magic
Like summoning the devil shit, or are you going with a broader "fuck Q" definition? Because, you know, I'm down with "fuck Q".

>>53544724
Warp 10 = infinity

>>53544979
>Warp Lizards
Honestly, I kind of enjoyed that (in a point and laugh at it sort of way). Considering how much they had screwed up Voyager, it's not like there was much integrity to compromise.

>The Prime Directive condones genocide
What specifically are you referring to here?

>Borg Queen
Yeah, she's awful. Fortunately, her presence was rather limited though (one movie and some later episodes in the worst of the Trek shows).

>>53545007
This. I think it was mentioned last thread, but I would change warp 10 to the speed of subspace. Still incredibly fast. Not infinite, mind you. They sort of forgot about it a lot of the time, but there were definite limits on the speed of subspace communications. Hence they'd often have to wait hours for messages back from Starfleet Command. Again, unless the writers forgot.

So with that, you could have the transwarp scale start at warp 10 (Transwarp 1) and continue on a similar line up to the next big speed barrier.

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>>53545007

>>53544979
>Borg Queen
Making the Borg queen simply something that the Collective brought forth to fuck with Locutus or else a proto Speaker for the Borg on the Ent-E would have been better, yeah.

>>53544724
Psychics with universal telepathy. Spock managed to mind-meld with a damn machine. More than once.

Ok that's just a niggle though, really though the answer is always time travel. Controlled time travel should be the realm of god-tier shit like the Guardian of Forever, The Prophets or Q. Time travel was thrown in for no good reason at the end of The Naked Time right there way back at the start of TOS, and lead to so much fuckery. I hate it.

>>53545049
>What specifically are you referring to here?

My choice of wording was poor. Let's correct it to:
>The Prime Directive condones mass extinction by inaction

So I'm referring to 2 episodes in TNG and 1 in Enterprise where the "right" thing to do is sit back and let an entire civilisation die because of some nebulous "cosmic plan" or philosophical substitute for the same.

And I understand the reasoning behind it. Hell, I've justified it in these very threads, in terms of a self-protectionist policy. But I don't like it one bit, especially seeing as surripticiously helping the natives from afar is something we've seen in nearly every trek series anyway.

>>53545148
Yeah, Trek certainly does overuse time travel. It's been put to good effect before, but I think the problem is that when it's badly done, it painfully undermines everything.

>>53545174
I think one of the issues with the Prime Directive is that it's rather inconsistent portrayed (or at least the crew's relationship with it is). But this doesn't bother me too much for an episodic show. I just kind of adjust things to a comfortable mean in my mind.

>>53544979
>The Prime Directive condones genocide
Easily fixed by tweaking Homeward slightly. It's not that big a deal.

>>53545174
>"cosmic plan"
Nevermind, you're that idiot.

>>53545248
The "Cosmic Plan" is the plan Riker enacted while he was a Q. No one else knows about it but Riker, and maybe Q.

>>53545195
It's not even the over-used nature of it in the show. Most of that over-use came from Voyager anyway.

Looking at it from a game perspective, imagine you're GM'ing and you've set up this neat scenario with a bunch of investigation to try and work out what happened at some fucked up incident so the players can stop a major war breaking out. And they just decide fuck it, let's time travel back to when the event happened, hang around at a distance and just learn everything.

Sure you can invent some excuse as to why they can't do it, or weave it into the plot. But what about the next time they encounter a problem? And the time after that? It just gets messy and confusing and stupid. Time travel should be really, really fucking special. Not something any idiot capable of hitting Warp 8+ can manage.

>>53544724

Godlike beings, magic, prolific use of time travel.

Most other things can just be ignored or written around (yes, even the lizard sex). It's not like there isn't a bunch of stuff from TOS and TNG that are just flat out ignored by later episodes (United Earth Space Probe Agency, women can't be starship captains, Klingons joined the Federation, Picard creating a bunch of vacancies at Starfleet Command, etc,).

>>53545248

Easily fixed, but set in canon because they didn't fix it before they started shooting. The only way to salvage the Prime Directive is to actively ignore those episodes and their interpretation of it.

>>53545352

Which was to become overweight, marry an aging Betazoid, get command of a less prestigious ship than the Federation flagship, and still have time to beat up Ron Perlman. Best plan.

>>53545413
Isn't the Titan a more advanced ship than the E?

>>53545413
The Riker Plan: Do as little as possible and come out on top.

>>53545438

It's "newer". It's also a contemporary of the E. I doubt it's "more advanced" in any meaningful way.

The only stuff we know about it from alpha canon fits on a post card, or near enough.

>http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/USS_Titan

>>53545248
No I'm not that guy. In fact, I've argued against him in the past. Generally I cite "First Contact" as the a primary factor in Starfleet's decision on the matter.

I'm well aware that the notion is discarded in Pen Pals. However it's philosphical substitute isn't. The idea that it is arrogant to assist a people is at odds with most of what we see in the show. It is for this reason that I'd prefer it wasn't there.

All three episodes show our protagonists siding, at least in part, with the notions that individual lives have essentially no meaning in the present and that sitting back and watching/allowing an entire civilisation to die when you have the means to save at least a portion of it is somehow morally reprehensible. That's the sort of thinking I expect from overtly evil admiral of the week, not the informed, compassionate crew of the Enterprise.

>>53545480

Because I don't want you to be unfairly slandered, I'm >>53545413 "that guy" who hates on the Riker Plan so much.

If people want to slander me for having a rational reason to dislike the idea of giving serious though to what fickle gods and destiny have in store for us, rather than considering only the moral and humane thing to do in any given circumstance, then so be it.

>>53545480
*somehow not morally reprehensible

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Has anyone used the playtest materials for Star Trek Adventures? How does it compare to other tabletop games like DnD? What's the learning curve like?

I have some friends who are interested in playing, and I would be their DM, but it will be our first tabletop game ever.

>>53545694
It's probably the easiest to get into, especially for a first-timers. FASA and LUG are both older systems, with a lot more complexity, but starting from scratch it can be overwhelming.

I'm pretty sure the "shakedown cruise" mission is in the OP link-bin. As should all the rest material.

I'd suggest running that, its short enough and you'll get a feel for whether or not you're group will work.

>>53545480
Homeward is the only episode I have an issue with because it's the only one that explicitly says they need to let an entire race die. In Pen Pals they decide to help, and although that's technically considered a violation of the Prime Directive Starfleet sees it as an acceptable violation on ethical grounds that's in keeping with the spirit of the Directive and Starfleet as a whole.

So let's ignore Homeward as I suggested. Every other instance of the Prime Directive being invoked, either explicitly or implicitly (hello Klingon Civil War) is to basically say that Starfleet shouldn't be meddling around in other peoples' affairs. Nothing wrong with that. Even in Pen Pals, the interference was limited so as to avoid cultural contamination. This is essentially the difference between that episode and something like Patterns of Force. It's easy to say you want to help people, but aside from obvious matters like complete annihilation which I repeat was dealt with appropriately in Pen Pals, it's very easy to fall in the trap of "the white man's burden" when it comes to helping lesser developed races, and the Prime Directive from a meta standpoint was developed as a response to and criticism of both colonialism and neo-colonialism.

So there is no "cosmic plan" or philosophical substitute. The Prime Directive simply says that they shouldn't be screwing around with other peoples' affairs, because even if they have the best of intentions to help it can still backfire easily.

>>53545888

Reminder that Picard only violates the Prime Directive because he hears Data's pen pal over the radio, not because he's reached any rational conclusion. His feelings get involved.

Let's just ignore Pen Pals while we're at it. The Prime Directive would be better off in almost all instances if we ignore how the Federation actually treats it or puts it into practice.

>>53545888
I don't see why we should ignore Homeward. It plays very much into the same rationale and happened just as much as pen pals and Dear Doctor did.

>>53545974
I figure Picard already made up his mind that he wanted to help and was trying to find a justification for it, hence the meeting. He was giving the cautionary viewpoint because he wanted to make sure it was something he could justify to command instead of just "lol we felt like it"

>>53546057
>I don't see why we should ignore Homeward.
My initial argument was that the Prime Directive would be fixed by either ignoring or slightly tweaking Homeward.

>>53546088

>Picard already made up his mind

Yes. In the other direction:

>PICARD: Data, I want you to sever the contact with Drema Four.

Picard has decided not to help.

>(Data goes to a wall panel and taps in commands)
>COMPUTER: Isolating frequency.
>SARJENKA [OC]: Data. Data, where are you? Why won't you answer? Are you angry me? Please, please, I'm so afraid. Data, Data, where are you?

Uh oh. Someone is now real in the Captain's mind, rather than simply an imaginary potential of a person.

PICARD: Wait. Oh, Data. Your whisper from the dark has now become a plea. We cannot turn our backs.

Picard has now changed his mind.

>http://www.chakoteya.net/NextGen/141.htm

>>53542663
>>53543128
>>53543669
I'd have just nerfed what holodecks were capable of myself rather than gotten rid of them entirely. Nobody should be able to mistake holodeck-simulated reality for actual reality.

Cartoonish animated graphics and holodeck characters have all the preprogrammed mindlessness of videogame NPCs.

The EMH isn't a hologram, he's an AI. His initial body is immobile and built into sickbay, although he might switch to something like an exocomp midway through the show.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Da_Vinci_Surgical_System

>>53546088

With Homeward, so we're all on the same page:

>WORF: Nikolai, what have you done?
>NIKOLAI: They were dying. I refused to sit there safe in that observation post and watch it happen. I set up a deflector shield to screen these caves from the radiation and then I brought them here.
>WORF: What did you tell them?
>NIKOLAI: They think I'm a Boraalan. I told them I was from another village far from here.
>WORF: At least you had that much sense.
>NIKOLAI: When I sent the distress call I knew the Enterprise was in this sector, but I wasn't sure you'd be the one to come. I'm so glad that you're here, Worf.
>WORF: Nikolai, there is nothing we can do for these people. You have only postponed their deaths.
>NIKOLAI: I want to discuss that with your Captain.
>WORF: And I am certain he will want to speak with you.

>>53546218

I like it. I'd accept that as a consensual canon in PnP.

>>53546262

>(Worf and Nikolai are back to their normal appearances)
>PICARD: Doctor, you were fully aware that the atmospheric dissipation could not be stopped. What did you hope to accomplish by assisting these people?
>NIKOLAI: I was trying to give them a future. What I propose is we create an atmospheric shield on the planet. We can camouflage the equipment just as was done with my observation post. No one will ever know it's there.
>RIKER: You can't be serious.
>NIKOLAI: Indeed I am. I realise it will only provide atmosphere for a limited area on the surface, but it will be enough to save one village.
>PICARD: I have no intention of compounding what you have done by committing another gross violation of the Prime Directive.
>NIKOLAI: Captain, the Boraalans have a rich and beautiful culture, a deep spiritual life. They deserve the chance to survive. And isn't that what the Prime Directive was truly intended to do, to allow cultures to survive and grow naturally?
>TROI: Not entirely. The Prime Directive was designed to ensure non-interference.
>CRUSHER: But aren't we interfering either way? If we take no action, it's a conscious decision to let the Boraalans die.
>NIKOLAI: Exactly. We have the power to save some of them. All we have to do is exercise it.

>>53546282

>PICARD: We are sworn to uphold the principle of the Prime Directive, and until that is changed there is no further course of action that we can take. Is that understood?
>NIKOLAI: Some of my log recorders are still in my observation post. They contain most of my research. Since it appears that the only way I'm going to preserve Boraalan culture is in a museum, I request permission to return to the surface and retrieve them.
>PICARD: I'm afraid that won't be possible. But you can have full use of the ship's computer to set up a comm. link and upload your data from here. If there's nothing further, you're dismissed.
>(all leave except Nikolai and Worf)
>WORF: I'm sorry, Nikolai. I wish there were another way. I am quite familiar with your communications systems. If you like, I will help you set up your comm. link.
>NIKOLAI: I'll do it myself.

At this point, Nikolai transports the Boraalans to Enterprise and Worf investigates, and Nikolai is found out.

So, last thread a few people were talking about who was in the right/wrong during insurrection. I'd like to weigh in with my thoughts on the matter.

The Baku had exactly dick-all legs to stand on. A colony of 200. An eminently relocatable colony should not take precedence over the good of literally trillions of people.

That being said, Starfleet handled the whole affair terribly from start to finish.

1st off, it should be obvious to Starfleet that the Baku are non native. 200 people living on a world in the middle of a nebula, with no evidence of prior habitation shows without a shadow of a doubt that the Baku are non-native. So from the get-go, there's no reason to secretly observe them. Just beam someone down and explain the situation calmly. If the Baku refuse to cooperate, there's still relatively little they can do. Just beam them up and send them on to peaceful, non magic planet. Although, honestly, I doubt the Baku would have refused if they had the situation explained to them rationally.

2nd, working with the So'na is a terrible idea. They're literally supplying your enemies with a drug their soldiers need. They've conquered numerous species and they're clearly hiding information about the Baku. Starfleet should probably just done the work and research themselves.

Failing that, send a well armed ship to oversee the operation and make sure the So'na aren't pissing about. Say, maybe that new Enterprise could help out.. They're in the area after all.

>>53546178
Stop taking shit out of context and making up your own headcanon because you have a hateboner for the Prime Directive.

As far as we the audience are aware, Picard didn't even know the civilization existed until Data said that he had been in contact with someone. At that point Picard orders him to stop contact and then calls the meeting to decide what to do with that new information. Up until Data gets the transmission the episode was a fucking Wesley episode.

>>53546308

>PICARD: You realise your career is finished.
>NIKOLAI: I know that, Captain, and I would do it all again.
>PICARD: What do you expect us to do now? You have left us with a colony of Boraalans who think they're still on their planet.
>NIKOLAI: I didn't beam them up without a plan. I've given this a lot of thought. I think we can find a new planet, an M class world, that can be their new home.
>PICARD: A home which would look very different from Boraal. You can't really believe that they'll be fooled.
>NIKOLAI: That's where the holodeck comes in. I'll go back and tell the Boraalans we're going on a journey, to a different place where they'll be safe from the storms. The holodeck can gradually change the terrain as we travel, so that at the end, the holodeck simulation will match the conditions on the new planet. Then we'll simply beam them down.
>PICARD: What if it doesn't work? What if they become aware that something strange is going on?
>NIKOLAI: Captain, I can't prepare for every contingency, but I assure you I'm accustomed to thinking on my feet. I'll deal with the situation as it evolves.
>PICARD: I'm not enthusiastic about this plan, but I don't see that we have another option. Very well, let's give it a try.
>NIKOLAI: Thank you, Captain.

Now, do I think Nikolai is unconditionally right? No. I think he did all this for selfish reasons, got involved without consulting anyone with the authority to violate the Prime Directive (like a starship captain), and then lied and misappropriated Enterprise's resources to kidnap a people against their will.

My issue with Picard and the rest of them is that they don't even consider helping them despite the cultural contamination. They aren't even willing to entertain Nikolai's plan until he's already done it.

Picard, who has the authority to violate the Prime Directive on at least some grounds (as seen in Pen Pals, ironically enough where he changes his mind at the last minute) argues for doing nothing.

>>53545974
>Let's just ignore Pen Pals while we're at it.
Yeah, I felt that the character motivations and reactions in that were pretty weak.

>>53546368

>posts transcript of actual scene
>headcanon

I don't have a hate boner for the PD. I have issues with how it is inconsistently applied throughout Trek. Despite the good intentions of the PD, the writers insist on wielding it like it's some kind of dogmatic truth that must be adhered to (until an exception occurs, of course).

I'm actually in favor of the Prime Directive, if only it would be applied consistently and with thoughtful care, rather than "muh feels" and "break it nevar evar!"

>>53545550
If it was about the discussion recently, regarding Riker's mental blackout during brainstorming session and you're "that guy", I actually share your opinion and thought your argumentation was very intelligent. I really must say, I cringe a lot every time I see that scene in penpals

>>53546519

Yes. I am "that guy". It's always nice to know I'm not universally despised.

I've been in /stg/ since the beginning and even nursed some of the early threads through. I regularly post screenshots and there are pretty good chances that the very people insulting me right now also agree with me on other aspects of Trek.

I'm not going to hold it against them. It's an anonymous image board, and the insults are a part of the culture. Let them have their vitriol. I'll let what I have to say stand or fall on its own merits.

>>53546599
>>53545550
The reason why I have an issue with your stance on this issue is because you take words out of context and greatly overly exaggerate things to such a degree where you basically do warp them into headcanon. It's no longer a rational argument because you're strawmanning.

Nobody, not even Riker, took the "cosmic plan" thing seriously at all. You can complain that he brought it up in the first place all you want, but if you're claiming anyone, including him, took it seriously then you're absolutely wrong and no wordplay will change that so knock it off.

>>53546716

Then why did he bring it up at all? Just to have it dismissed as a silly thing to be discussing?

Let's discuss fast cars then. Irrelevant to the discussion? Oh yes. Clearly. Let's drop it. Fast cars are completely irrelevant. So much for the auto industry.

>>53546716

Just out of curiosity, I went to Memory Alpha to see what it says about Pen Pals. I've never contributed to MA, so whomever wrote this isn't me.

The following is from the plot synopsis:

>regarding the Cosmic Plan

"La Forge and Pulaski on the other hand are aghast at the prospect of sitting by and allowing an entire sentient race to die out. Riker and Troi offer yet another argument; that the destruction of Drema IV and the other planets could be part of a larger "cosmic plan," which the crew of the Enterprise have no right to interfere with."

>Picard's decision to help

"Picard announces that they will obey the Prime Directive and leave the system. Picard orders Data to cut the transmission with Sarjenka, but Data plays a transmission from her, where she pleads them to help her planet. Upon hearing this, Picard decides that since it is a direct plea for help, the Prime Directive no longer applies. The crew cannot simply turn their backs on the inhabitants now. "

>http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Pen_Pals_(episode)

I'm not saying Memory Alpha is correct for agreeing with me, but I'm curious as to why your interpretation of the scene is more valid.

>>53546789
>Then why did he bring it up at all? Just to have it dismissed as a silly thing to be discussing?
Not that anon, but the answer is pretty obvious, speaking as someone who's watched a lot of Star Trek. It was pretty obviously the writers using Riker as a mouthpiece to bring up the involvement or machinations of the capital G God (or Gods) without being denominational. That you're assuming a TV show has its characters organically come up with ideas is odd.

>>53546882
>I'm not saying Memory Alpha is correct for agreeing with me, but I'm curious as to why your interpretation of the scene is more valid.
You're simultaneously looking too deeply at some aspects (Riker was made a Q at one point, which the writers probably forgot about), and not enough at others (It's a TV show, and one whose writers made hamfisted references when possible)

>>53546924

>it's a TV show and dialogue and action serve the audience before the story

Agreed. I've even brought this up before.

>Riker was a Q

But he's not at the time of this particular discussion. He's never shown to have a greater understanding of the workings of the universe at any other time I can think (I do welcome cases to the contrary, naturally). Why would he have insight in this particular case?

>>53546985
You keep taking Riker's statement far too literally. He doesn't know that there is a literal cosmic plan, but he knows by virtue of being a Q that humanity is limited and can't go arrogantly barreling in when they don't know what the fuck's going on, even when it's for the best of intentions.

>>53546985
>Why would he have insight in this particular case?
Did you miss my previous point? The writer was looking to bring up God without actually *saying* God. It's not some reference to Q powers, it's a reference to the fact that religions talk about an ineffable plan.

>>53546716
Is it so so wrong to criticize the treatment of the PD? I think the moral substitute referenced by the other anon was refering to dear doctor, which uses the exact same type of "cosmic plan", only wraped up in a very, very flawed understanding of science/evolution theory, where some form of fate is justification enough to allow the extinction of sapient species.

Of course it is all understandable in a Doylist context: the huge amount of writers, who often enough have little knowledge of Star Trek use the PD as stupid plot devices, so it's treament is fairly incocistent.

>>53547013

Which is inherently unknowable, and therefore irrelevant. It's effectively moral cowardice to say "we should not help a dying people because god might not like it". Especially where god is fickle, capricious, cruel, and doesn't reward your efforts to please it/him/her.

>>53547037

Refer to the above. Ineffable plans are inherently unknowable, and therefore impractical to follow. This isn't a case of a god laying out a code of behavior. You're trying to guess what is going on in the mind of god, and to predict its/his/her intent.

And if you could do that, you would be a god. But you can't, the only recourse is to proceed as though there is no plan, and try to make the moral, ethical, and humanitarian decision you can live with.

>>53547070
>Is it so so wrong to criticize the treatment of the PD?
No but it needs to be based on how the Prime Directive has actually been used and not "DAE STARFLEET GENOCIDES RACES BECAUSE THEY'RE RELIGIOUS NUTS"

And Dear Doctor predated the Federation, therefore it's irrelevant. Hell, even between TOS and TNG the Prime Directive clearly changed (TOS was specifically about pre-warp civilizations while TNG broaded it to ban all interference in external civilizations) so there's no point bringing up Enterprise.

>>53547013
On which other occasions is Riker's insight as a Q ever brought up and dominates his opinions/actions, or is just a general vibe why he's so superior?

Q isn't the kind of god as YAWEH/ALLAH or such, he's basically a grown up Trelane, his powers or not omnipotent, nor has he omniscience. Why should Riker have any of those traits?

>>53547114
>Which is inherently unknowable, and therefore irrelevant.
Which is basically what Troi said, and Riker agreed with her, therefore you seriously need to drop it and stop overexaggerating everything.

>>53547166
Holy fuck, actually read my post, read the actual words, understand the meaning of those words. Riker does not have special magical insight. Nothing suggested he did. Nobody suggested he did. The episode did not suggest he did. All that was suggested is that Riker is in character to remind people that humans are limited mortals. That's all. That's literally all. Stop flying off the handle.

>>53547201

No. It's La Forge who got him to drop it, because he used Riker's argument against him to argue in favor of interference (which is partly why the Cosmic Plan is a bad argument in the first place).

>>53547233
Holy crap anon, please just drop it. It's embarrassing everyone in the thread.


In other news, I've been playtesting some of the Mophidius stuff, but I can't say whether I prefer it over the FASA or LUG systems I've used for years yet.

>>53547120
I made the clear destinction as it being the moral substitute mentioned, not the PD itself. And to undely the following point.

Anyways, if you make that distiction, look how many times the TOS-crew interferred with pre-warp civs?

>>53547261

Fine. I'll drop it to save you, and the rest of /stg/ from shame. It's been retread as much as possible anyway. In the mean time I will search for a way to regain my honor.

>>53547201
>but he knows by virtue of being a Q that humanity is limited and can't go arrogantly barreling in when they don't know what the fuck's going on

Read your post again, then understand what I ment. If you are making the argument, that the writers wanted to punch said message about human limitations through, than they did a very, very stupid job at doing it, because the entire argument Riker made is as often enough pointed out, idiotic and not very clear.

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Biggest case of blue-balls I've seen in a long while.

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>>53548058

At least it wasn't premature.

>>53548140
Funny shapes are best shapes

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>>53548674

I'm fond of the shark that's two decks underneath the shuttle bay. Also, the little hangout in front of the warp coils.

>>53544991
Mostly the weird fetish Roddenberry seemed to have with god-like entities.

It gets real fucking annoying.

>>53545248
Because there's only one person who takes objection to the "cosmic plan" bullshit.

>>53549906
>Mostly the weird fetish Roddenberry seemed to have with god-like entities.
>It gets real fucking annoying.
Agreed. And while TNG put basically all its marbles in the Q basket, Q appears repeatedly, so it amounts to the same thing.

>>53550878
Also Q is a pretty entertaining character.

>>53547070

And unfortunately for us, fiction is based on what exists in the text. And based on the textual evidence, the Prime Directive is fucking stupid. It doesn't matter if you personally dislike the fact the Prime Directive is awful, or that you imagine that there is some Real True Prime Directive out there that isn't stupid. It doesn't actually exist outside of what was shown in the shows.

>>53546328
>Although, honestly, I doubt the Baku would have refused if they had the situation explained to them rationally

I'm not so sure. The Baku seem pretty adamant about staying. "Where could warp take us but away from here", "this is our home". They're close minded to the notion and would likely refuse to go. Do you remember that one Farmer that Kira couldn't convince to leave a moon? One man, putting his own comfort over something that will benefit billions, even himself if he allows it. The Baku are like him.

So really it comes down to whether you think it's okay to disenfranchise 200 people to benefit billions.

For my part, I wouldn't be comfortable with it, but I'd absolutely do it. These people aren't being sent to death camps or just dumped on some lifeless rock. Even the evil version of Starfleet's plan was essentially what Worf's brother did in Homeward, only less imperative.

They can claim that this is opression all they want, but when Starfleet are willing to relocate them to another temperate world, with a perfect replica of their town and likely the opportunity to avail of this new wonder-drug, those complaints just ring hollow.

>"There can be no justice so long as laws are absolute. Even life itself is an exercise in exceptions."
>"When has justice ever been as simple as a rulebook?"
>- Picard and Riker

Yeah... Picard can be a total hypocrite at times.

So I'm reading through the argument and both sides seem needlessly fixated on the "cosmic plan". This seems especially egregious because the first guy to bring it up in this thread seems to have quickly stated that the primary issue is the morality of non-interference. So, from my perspective, the constant reuse of "cosmic plan" rather than actually progressing your own argument is a clear cut case of grand-standing. It doesn't help that, as far as I can tell, the 4 or so key debaters here seem to have been arguing on entirely different cases that only tangentially line up.

On balance, I agree with the notion that the 3 episodes mentioned did a bad job of framing the prime directive and the morality of the crew.

>>53544707
No im pretty sure that's the TNG/DS9 one.

>>53551609
Or they did a good job at framing a bad directive and an inhuman crew.

>>53552244
Hardly. They spend most of the show being goody 2-shoes

>>53553645
Bestbird, coming through.

>>53553872
Except when millions of lives are at stake. Then they turn all apathetic to the suffering of lesser races.

>>53555489
Yes, that's why I think those 3 episodes and Insurrection are dumb.

>>53553645
Are there any cute Romulan ships?

>>53555945
T'varo a cute. And maybe those scout ships from TNG

>>53555945
The Romulan shuttle is the CUTEST

http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Romulan_shuttle

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Jays lads, could one of ya not bump, no? We're ya born without hips?

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Some of you guys are ok.
Don't go to Qo'nos tomorrow.

>>53559928
Oh shit! The Dave is free!

>>53559928
I though Dave was a force for good

>>53559871
>filename
I read that as NCC-2400 for a second and had the thought that it was odd that a Galaxy would have such a low registry number. I may need a little help.

>>53560668
Not if you're between him and somewhere he thinks he needs to be.

He will try to spare you if he can but if he can't he will scurry over your cooling carcass. And he will almost certainly go through your pockets.

>>53560679
Could be one of the other early Connie numbers getting reused. Like the Endeavour or some shit.

>>53560732
I feel like Dave isn't so callous. He only fights in situations where he (and his) is threatened.

Any more of those Troi interviews? I thought they were pretty good, all in all.

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>>53559871
See now this here is why I shouldn't post when drunk. Make an ass of myself, so I do. Have a Saratoga by way of apology for my drunk(er) posts.

Anyone know of anyplace that has free pdf files of star trek comics?

>>53564252
Imagine how comfy a dildoship would be with 24th-century guts: internal space for days, but with decks small enough to be single-purpose! A flying skyscraper, nicely partitioned into functional segments...

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>>53564632

Get out of here with your reasonably believable interior space and comfy sci-fi aesthetic!

No, I get you. It would even make more sense given that gravity plating exists in Trek, so having the decks stacked like a skyscraper but never having to worry about which way is "up" would b fantastic.

>>53564703
>>53564632

Go full modular, have all the space stuff (warp core & nacelles, impulse engines, deflectors) in a standard stern section so you can have a different forward hull depending on the intended role of the subclass...

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>>53564632
Get your own personal runabout and you have enough modular space to make your own flying luxury condo.

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>>53565266

I like you style.

>>53565570
Exactly what I was getting at: I know some people aren't too keen on the Starfleet Museum...

The ships with the impulse engines forward of the warp drive are a bit fiddly and none of them have the deflectors at the stern, but the aft section of a Yorktown or Pioneer would make a good starting point for one hell of a refit!

>>53565772
>The ships with the impulse engines forward of the warp drive are a bit fiddly

Unless that's so they can separate the main hull from the warp drive.

>>53565827

Personally, I'd solve the problem by putting two impulse drives on the thing. A more powerful version in the aft section that can be jettisoned in an emergency, and a smaller one to push the crew section as a life boat (like the saucers on traditional Trek ships).

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Might need to make it slightly more oval though to up the 24th century look.

>>53565850
Yeah might as well just tuck a small drive in for emergencies. The extra reactors for it could be put to good use in normal functioning.

>>53566342
Why would the nacelles be at the bow? The powerplant is near the impulse engines so plasma conduits would have to run the length of the ship, and that's ignoring that they block the turret's LoS...heck, the last bulb is supposed to be a central nacelle! This design does not parse...

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>>53566604

It's definitely a problem.

>>53566604
Well it's an interim design, fresh new antimatter engine but outclassed by the Conqueror later on with the more conventional giant fat nacelle thing, but for this they went with the classic single centerline nacelle at the back and the front are just little extra field generators rather than the main system.

"The Tannhäuser cruisers were essentially lengthened Pioneer-class ships adapted to use the new SSWR-III-A reactor, which had been designed for ships with displacements greater than 300,000 tons. As with Krechet, the smaller amount of deuterium that needed to be carried allowed a larger payload, including both offensive and defensive weaponry and more powerful sensors and deflectors. An unusual feature of Tannhäuser was the extreme forward placement of the directional nacelles in a "hammerhead" arrangement, which was done in an attempt to increase maneuverability at warp speeds."

Small maneuvre nacelles turn up on other fat ships from time to time.

>>53566686
Makes sense-maybe they run off of the older fusion reactors while the dangerous new antimatter drive is off in the stern and can be jettisoned...

>>53566667
Now THAT is a good design: easily detachable stardrive section, more than two nacelles for redundancy, impulse exhaust isn't hitting the pylons, spherical main hull for maximum volume/minimum surface area...shorten the nacelles and it could be a 1950s rocketship-style tailsitter!

>>53566667
>>53566806

It only sort-of follows the Roddenberry rules (paired nacelles, 50% visible from ahead and 50% line-of-sight from the side)...maybe up it to four nacelles, on split pylons like the Constellation or the Yorktown?

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>>53566686

I get it, and incidentally, the maneuvering nacelles actually dovetails nicely with what they described in the TNG Tech Manual about why they use two nacelles in general.

I am unfortunately out of Romulan War era ship pics aside from the Daedalus class. This one isn't a "proper" Daedalus, but I thought it was an okay mashup of TOS and ENT aesthetics.

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>>53567011
I really like the new-style Daedalus. Problem with the old one is it was based off a draft, not a decent completed image. This thing looks way more workable.

>>53566806
>Now THAT is a good design

Except for the trouble balancing the asymmetric warp field leading to weak performance at warp. The triple engine thing was a substitute for having 2 better engines. And when they eventually got 2 better engines and were refitted, it still didn't help much.

Safety stuff worked like a charm though.

>>53567143
The big thing about the original for me is the symmetry and redundancy-maybe 4 short nacelles would make for a more stable warp field through pairing while retaining functionality in the event of failure...plus, they could be shorter for vertical landings.

>>53567264
4 nacelles are harder to balance power wise, which makes the field less stable overall. The later Starfleet could afford finicky engines that required more maintenance, but I would doubt the early one would.

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>>53567411
Not so much, Yorktown did it in the Earth-Romulan war, and the Horizon class did it 30 years after Wasp for long range exploration purposes.

>>53567550
Yeah but that's Starfleet Museum, which I could give a fuck about, to be honest. It's almost its own setting rather than Star Trek at this point. Not a bad one mind, just not quite what I think of when I think of Trek.

>>53567574
The Constellation was a TMP-era design, and Cheyenne is TNG-what if they are evolution of some early four-nacelled prototype that has a descendant in every generation? It could have been an interim stage between ring drives and two nacelles: still relatively symmetric, but more modular for construction and maintenance purposes...

>>53568216
The Constellation is noted as having a finicky warp drive in canon because of the four nacelles though.

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>>53567574
Yeah but we're on about SFM stuff with the Wasp and so on,so SFM stuff applies.

>>53568228
Pretty sure it's just that the ship wasn't great. there's nothing specific about it's 4 nacelle set up mentioned in anything. Hell it was a Constitution Refit until last-minute changes for it's first appearance as the Stargazer.

>>53568216
My personal argument for four nacelles is that whilst we've never seen anything with four be explicitly faster, it's been attached to stuff that would benefit from being able to maintain high warp factors for longer. It's dedicating tonnage to ensuring that a ship can keep two nacelles running for as long as possible without having to drop out of warp (since we know from many examples that high speeds cannot be maintained for long and a ship's cruising speed is generally far below it's maximum).

Keeping a higher cruising speed would be a pretty worthwhile benefit to anything that is going to be away from home for a good while. Also the thing with the Stargazer is that it is concurrent with the Excelsior design but uses older style parts. From that I'd argue it was intended as a cheaper way to have an exploratory heavy cruiser than the Excelsior class, quickly filling in for the increasingly few Constitutions, built to the same standards as the new Miranda class ships (including the lack of secondary hull as a design choice) but focused rather than generalist. Hence why it didn't stick around and there's not a ton of them; the design filled in whilst getting the Excelsior fleet up to strength which had long delays from the experimental phase.

>>53568510
Maybe it achieved longer cruising times by having the ship alternate between the top and bottom sets of nacelles during travel, thus doubling the amount of warp stress the ship could take.

>>53568737

That's always been my conjecture.

Three nacelles can probably do something similar (or, a single nacelle takes on the duty of lowering the ship's mass, and the others produce the actual propulsion) at the cost of being more difficult to keep balanced.

Single nacelle starships are probably at a disadvantage when maneuvering at warp, because they don't have two warp fields to manipulate.

>>53568510
>>53568737
>>53569165
Picard described the Stargazer as "underpowered and overworked".

Perhaps the extra nacelles were too much for the warp cores of the time.

>>53570661
Also the additional cargo/shuttle bay space must have cut into their ability to maintain crew.

>>53570864
The saucer is waaay thicker than a connie or miranda, remember (and it's also a scoche wider). There is a lot of volume there for crew quarters and stuff, even with all the extra cargo and whatnot. It's literally three times the volume of a TOS connie.

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>>53570661

"Underpowered" would be a function of her reactor output, not the nacelles. "Overworked" is what happens when a spaceframe is kept in service past her expected lifespan (this is also a maintenance issue).

Neither precludes the possibility that four nacelles allows such a ship to maintain higher warp factors for longer. Stargazer was just old.

We don't really know much about the Stargazer aside from things Picard related in various episodes, nor do we know a whole lot about multiple nacelles on a ship outside of the TNG Tech Manual saying that it was "less power efficient" (paraphrasing that last).

>>53570661
>>53571618

I've been up all night, so somehow I managed to misread what you said.

Anyway, there's not much reason to put four nacelles on a ship if two will do, especially if the reactor can't power them properly.

Granted, Starfleet often makes dumb decisions that don't make any sense all the time, so you could be right.

>>53545974
>Reminder that Picard only violates the Prime Directive because he hears Data's pen pal over the radio, not because he's reached any rational conclusion. His feelings get involved.

I always interpreted that scene as "There's a difference between seeing somebody in trouble, and having them call out to you by name and ask for help. Now maybe we have some Prime Directive wiggle room."

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>>53571961

I promised I'd drop it anon. But, I'll bend it to address your point because you seem genuine:

Picard, earlier, states that they can't get involved unless asked, and since telling the people they're aliens in a space ship is a violation of the PD, there's no way that they can ask for help.

After the opinion sharing has stopped, Picard orders Data to sever all contact.

Data activates the radio, which plays either a recording of Sarjenka, or happens to catch her in real time asking where he is because she's scared.

Now, this isn't actually a direct plea for help, but Picard decides that it is on his own authority, and on those grounds they help. I'm sure Starfleet command looked askance at Picard's justification and just shrugged.

My ultimate point was that until that moment, Picard is going to turn the ship around and leave. He'd ordered Data to sever contact. Sever contact means "this discussion is over, we're not breaking the Prime Directive, and Data is a in trouble".

Picard can and has violated the Prime Directive multiple times in his time in Starfleet, which did not apparently harm his career. There's an episode where someone says "nine times" but take any numbers or details with a grain of salt. I've been up all night.

I'm just wondering why Picard had to wait until he heard Sarjenka on the radio before he would allow himself to justify suspending the Prime Directive (note that through Picard's justification of it as a "plea for help" it is not a violation of the Prime Directive).

>>53568360
Jeez that saucer is THICC

>>53572297
>My ultimate point was that until that moment, Picard is going to turn the ship around and leave. He'd ordered Data to sever contact. Sever contact means "this discussion is over, we're not breaking the Prime Directive, and Data is a in trouble".
You're reading into that quite a bit. Obviously he's going to tell Data to sever contact unless otherwise ordered to regardless of what they decide because contacting a pre-warp civilization is still against the rules even if you're trying to help him. It isn't until the following scene that Picard gives him permission again, solely to get her to a safer location. Severing contact with a pre-warp civilization is the expected course of action, not one that implies malevolent inaction.

I maintain Picard deep-down wanted to help, otherwise he wouldn't have accepted such a flimsy excuse as "this person is asking for help from some guy she heard on the radio whom she thinks is one of her species and not some alien in a space ship." He's just trying to find some justification he can use when he reports this to Starfleet so it looks better than "we interfered with a pre-warp civilization because we felt like it." Or to use a /tg/ analogy, Picard is the paladin desperately wanting to find a Lawful justification to do Good, until he eventually says "Fuck it, if I fall because of this I'll ask for forgiveness later."

And then Homeward fucks it all up.

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>>53571618
This.

>>53571680
May not have been a dumb decision at the time it was built. Could have easily just been an acceptable compromise to attain certain design goals, and then the ship was just obsoleted fairly quickly by the advent of just much better engines (Excelsior/Ambassador and so on).

>>53568510
>My personal argument for four nacelles is that whilst we've never seen anything with four be explicitly faster, it's been attached to stuff that would benefit from being able to maintain high warp factors for longer. It's dedicating tonnage to ensuring that a ship can keep two nacelles running for as long as possible without having to drop out of warp (since we know from many examples that high speeds cannot be maintained for long and a ship's cruising speed is generally far below it's maximum).
I like this. Sort of the same reason passenger jets have multiple engines but are capable of flight on just one.

>>53573975
A lot of it is shuttlebay

>>53577573
What purpose does that serve? Is the Constellation meant to serve some sort of support roll?

>>53578964
I dunno, maybe the ship architect had a boner for carriers briefly and thought he'd make a carrier out of a shitty little patrol boat.

>>53578964
Archeological digs, in depth planetary surveys both mapping a multitude of planets in one system and geological surveys of same, and disaster relief. The ship has like 20 or 30 shuttles and a lot of science bays.

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>>53578964
Given it's a long range explorer, having a ton of shuttles and stuff could be really handy. Might even be able to carry tiny torpedo boat types for it's own escort. Or use them to move a lot of cargo without beaming. Given it's a late 23rd century design I doubt it has the kind of massive transporters later ships managed (like the Galaxy's cargo ones) so some proper bulk-cargo haulers could be of use alongside large transport shuttles for planetary missions. Maybe even specialist gear to gather supplies.

I dunno, I am struggling to come up with answers given that it could get away with half the number of bays still have a ton of hangar space for a ship it's size.

And really it was probably just down to filling in extra model detail without having to do a bajillion more tiny windows whilst they were hurrying to build the damn thing in the first place.

>>53579204
What's the ship in the right rear stardock? I don't recognize it.

>>53578964
Possible roles (remember, this was a time when the klinks and feds were close to war at all times):
>fast troop transport
It's trivial to set up transporter blockers, so having a lot of shuttles would be a good thing, and there's plenty of room for lots of troops etc.
>general fast transport
If you have some sort of catastrophe on a planet and need a lot of supplies fast, send in Stargazer.
>escort carrier
I guess that could be a thing too.
>modular stuff
There's a lot of room in there for a ton of labs or even small construction yards.

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>>53579250
Ah some daft thing possibly based off a bit of concept art. Might have even been originally a FASA abomination.

>>53579287
There's a thought. Could just be some of the bays are just externally accessible cargo bays rather than shuttle bays.

>>53579204
If we take Beta canon (lel) into account, the Stargazer specifically was outfitted for archeology and planetary survey duties, with one example of the class being used as a starship recovery vehicle in situations like the Enterprise-D's crash, and another in the Dominion War as a fighter carrier.

>>53579532
>Might have even been originally a FASA abomination.
Nope, FASA was all about stuffing the nacelles closer to the ship, not on their own pylon. That one was from Bridge Commander I think,

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>>53579607
>FASA was all about stuffing the nacelles closer to the ship

Or they were about putting them obscenely far out from the ship.

Basically they were shit at nacelle placement, and frequently just moved hull parts around for no good reason, and thats why I thought of them first.

>>53579902
Don't talk shit about my Chandley shipfu. It's the best soldier carrier in the setting.

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For that dude that wanted shots of the Dauntless.

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>>53581813

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>>53581832

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>>53581857

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>>53581873

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I've just got one of these.

Holy shit it is so fucking fun.

Currently grinding the Borg missions to get the Borg Tech for it.

It's going to look all sorts of fucked up with the full Borg visuals on it.

>>53582569
What the hell is that thing? It looks like somebody mutilated an Ambassador class and stuck some weird TOS/ENT mashup nacelles on it.

>>53582767
NX refit.

It's fucking glorious.

I've fucked around with the settings and colours to make it look as beat up as possible and the interior is 23c looking. I've also given it full nothing but Kelvin phasers for weapons.

When those Borg upgrades get put on it it's going to look all manner of fucked up.

>>53581813
>>53581832
>>53581857
>>53581873
>>53581895
Is this some DS9/Voyager ship? It looks oddly proportioned for a starfleet ship.

>>53583505
It was shown on VOY in a Doctor episode and used on STO.

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>>53583505

It's an alien ship from VOY that was disguised to look Starfleet. We learn in the episode that the people who built it (and the alien who led them to it) were exterminated by the Borg as a result of Janeway's actions in "Scorpion".

Said alien tries to murder the crew as revenge, and they kick his ass. We were also introduced to the quantum slipstream drive in that episode (his plan was to get them to abandon Voyager and take his ship, so he could them all in some glorious revenge plot).

>>53583556

You're thinking of the Prometheus.

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>>53583584

*murder them all rather

Have more Prometheus with her outrageous number of nacelles.

>>53583505
The Dauntless. A ship built by aliens to emulate Starfleet technology. In STO, Starfleet blew its wad over the design when Voyager returned from the Delta Quadrant and used it as a testbed for their new transwarp drive.

>>53583720
Interesting; the Galaxy-class ship you command at the beginning of Star Trek: Bridge Commander is also called USS Dauntless.

>>53583720
>>53583611
>>53583584
Another victim of Janeway handing WMDs over to the Borg

>>53544724
I wouldn't have given DS9 another Defiant after the first one.

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>>53584226
They didn't, they got a Sao Paulo

:^)

>>53583832
To be fair, the Borg were already assimilating his species before Voyager hit Borg space. The Borg just put their assimilation of his species on hold while they fought Species 8472. Given that Species 8472 planned on purging everyone once they were finished with the Borg, his species was screwed either way. He went full Ahab, only the idiot made Voyager his white whale because he figured the Borg were too tough to beat.

>>53587512
8472 said your galaxy will be purged.

It could have meant that they were going to purge it of the Borg.

>>53588955
I thought they just said *you* will be purged.

>>53545148
>Time travel was thrown in for no good reason at the end of The Naked Time right there way back at the start of TOS

Earlier. The first pilot refers to warp as "time-warp". This is because if you have the energy to travel faster than light, then mathematically speaking you also have the energy for time travel. You literally can't have one without the other. If anything, Star Trek shows time travel as being much more difficult.

Also, fuck you for wanting to remove Star Trek IV from continuity. And fuck your whole family, too.

>>53588955
Now honestly, in Janeway's situation would you have taken that interpretation?

>>53585573
You know what I mean. Simply replacing the ship next week lessens the loss of it.

>>53589377
>This is because if you have the energy to travel faster than light, then mathematically speaking you also have the energy for time travel.
Doesn't trek-style warp sidestep that by creating a bubble of alternate physics?

>>53590892
Yes. And so does literally every ftl method in sci-fi.

>>53588955
Nope, they took the Borg incursion into fluidic space as flat-out war against all life in the galaxy.

>>53581813
>>53581832
>>53581857
>>53581873
>>53581895
Thanks man, looks great. Wouldn't mind another shot or 2 of it from the front, if you've got the time.

>>53590358
That they are going to fight the Borg to the very end based on the evidence that we've only seen them attack Borg and Borg associates.

Also I wouldn't be surprised learning that the Borg started the fight based on the prior knowledge of the Borg.

But I also wouldn't have intentionally set course "for the nearest Borg Cube" with the intention of giving them WMDs. The weapons would be traded if it became evident that 8472 was attacking non-Borg.

>>53591519
What the shit? The dauntless looks like one of cryptic's Deep Space Science Shoes but without the underslung deflector. Worse, actually, since its nacelles are tucked under its arse instead of the normal outrigger-style.

>>53591544
I like it, seems like the sort of thing that was specifically designed for Transwarp.

As for the comparison to the Cryptic designs, I can see some similarities to things like the Nomad, but the majority of their worst designs suffer from weird, spindly features and an over abundance of Surface detail. The Quasar, Comet, Shir'karr and Majestic classes all demonstrate what I consider bad Cryptic designs.

But then ship taste is subjective, so you can disagree with me and vice Verda without the world coming to an end.

>>53591799
Not him, but I think he means the DSSVs - they're all awful, but in particular the Oracle and Trident are literally just fucking shoes with nacelles on the side. I mean, the Dauntless isn't THAT offensive compared to them.

>>53591544

Blame whomever came up with the design for VOY. Cryptic didn't make it, so they don't deserve the blame. Though they deserve plenty for other reasons.

>>53544979
I heard somewhere that the writers all pretend that the warp lizard episode never happened.

>>53592967
However it was never decanonised as tends to be claimed.

>>53590892
Sure, now, but do you really think that was in Roddenberry's mind, or any of the writers, when writing TOS?

>>53591520
>based on the evidence that we've only seen them attack Borg and Borg associates.

He says, casually forgetting the dying Harry Kim in sickbay an the 8472 ship that attacked Voyager when it came across the Borg battlefield.

>>53591544
>>53592032
>>53592464
>Deep Space Science Shoes
Hey, the Destiny's alright, and the Nimbus is pretty sexy once you get rid of the dingleberry on the bottom. Mostly.

>>53593313
>kim being relevant
>ever

>>53593313
>8472 attacks trespassers
>Blames the 8472

>>53593744
That's a paper thin argument. Kim made no attempt to attack the giant space noodle, who was also trespassing on a Borg cube.

>>53593744
>8472 attacks trespassers

They weren't trespassing. They were in Borg-controlled space so if anything both of them were trespassers, and Kim himself was attacked on the Borg cube.

>>53595280
>>53595151
Kim had been fucking around on the bioship. Therefore trespassing.

>>53595430
T. Definitely human admiral

>>53585573
I liked the Sao Paulo more anyway.

>>53596801
The carpets were blue. That's basically the only aesthetic difference.

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>>53596950
Blue carpets are nice.

Keeps things looking formal rather than too comfy.

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>>53591519
Sure thing

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>>53598528
Incidentally, this ship is ridiculously fast. And she gets quantum slipstream for twice as long as the normal ship.

>>53598570
Ridiculously fast? How so? And how good is she overall - I remember when I was shopping for a new sci boat, the Dauntless on paper looked on par with a T6 Voyager/T6 Nebbie/Aventine (I can't remember which).

>>53599336
Well, with the budget setup I've made for it I've gotten it to do 220 at full impulse. With an epic hyper impulse engine and the appropriate consoles I'm sure I could hit 300. And she does Transwarp 35 for 60 seconds. Ideal for a complete Tour of the Galaxy run. It's baffling to me that she's an intel-ship rather than a Pilot ship, as that seems to be what she's built for.

Maneuverability/durability wise, she's essentially an escort that you can tac drain and exotic damage builds onto. Personally I've traditionally gone for a Nebula or Luna as my science ship of choice, but being able to run rings around/dodge all of my opponents is pretty nice too.

>>53599336

My brother in law likes her console. It causes your target and enemies around it to assume the Dauntless' appearance and confuses them (meaning they target everything, rather than just foes). It also makes the Dauntless untargetable and drops your threat way down.

He contributed to killing the CE in CCA that way because the Tholians decided that the CE was him, and pounded the crap out of it. Came in 1st.

>>53599668
She came out before Pilot ships were actually a thing otherwise she probably would have been a Intel/Pilot hybrid.

Gotta wait for T7 now for a version that does that, I suppose.

>>53601751
>delet this n-
>wait no, it still looks better than literally any of the other designs with spherical primary hulls

>>53601751
It..it doesn't look like a complete ship, it looks like something that was blown off a larger ship.

>>53602291
I was thinking that too. Almost like she's a lifepod ship that can be launched from a cruiser.

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>>53601805
>new ship design
>take old ship, just mount the pylons somewhere retarded with the nacelles not even realigned

Fit for the president!

>>53595430
As I recall, Kim was the one Human on that away mission that DIDN'T go on the bioship. He just stood around on the cube and messed with some piece of Borg tech or another.

Then again, iirc the 8472 didn't see who went onto the bioship and who didn't (and we don't know how much information was relayed to it by the bioship's sensors). It may have assumed they all went onboard, but most likely it didn't care.

The impression I got from that story arc was that their reasoning was this: some people from this other universe (or dimension, or whatever it was) invaded us, so we're going to exterminate all life in that galaxy. That was definitely set up as the obvious interpretation until halfway through the episode where they're found to be practicing at playing Human, several encounters with them later.

The Borg could very plausibly have started the fight, but Janeway saw 8472 attack 100% of ships they were near (which, admittedly, was only Voyager and a bunch of Borg ships), plus the threats relayed through Kes, also made it plausible that 8472 may have been the aggressors. Also, it's reasonable to assume that someone as technologically advanced as the Borg would be smart enough to figure out whether they had a decent chance at beating any given opponent BEFORE picking a fight, so the fact that the Borg were getting their shit kicked in to such a ridiculous degree is reasonable to interpret as evidence 8472 started the war (though in retrospect it's evidence that the Borg are retarded and can only learn by assimilating people who know things they don't).

>>53587512
>>53591520
>>53603204
>ITT: we defend Janeway
fucking hell /stg/, what next? Rick Berman Did Nothing Wrong?

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>>53601805
>created by the same guy

>>53604502
>Starfleet Winnebago class

>>53604294
I'm of the opinion that Janeway wasn't as bad as people seem to think she was.

At a guess, being a Captain wasn't her endgame. At least not until she was forced to embrace it as her potential position for the rest of her days. She was looking for an Admiralty. And was perhaps being groomed for that position by her mentors.

We see her being buddy buddy with 3 separate admirals and her first captaincy is a (theoretically) simple spook mission. Odds are she was to do a tour on a shiny new ship, taking easy-ish missions and then getting a desk somewhere on earth.

As a result she's completely out of her depth for most of the events of Voyager.

>>53604502
I bet one of those would make an excellent apartment.

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>>53604691

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>>53604691
>>53604714

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>>53604691
>>53604714
>>53604735

>>53604691
>>53604714
>>53604735
>>53604757
>when you let a Nid player paint an Imperial fleet's minis

>>53605322
Oh god, it still hurts that GW killed BFG and the rest of the Specialist Games lineup; when the hell are they bringing it back? Blood Bowl and Necromunda are already out...

>>53604294
Whatever your opinion of Janeway in general, her decision to help the Borg against species 8472 wasn't completely retarded.

>>53605322
Some kind of spaceborne mimics?

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>>53604502
It bugs me that the nacelles are UNDER the wings when it was obviously designed for atmo.

The wings should have been where the nacelles are and the nacelles where the registry# is.
The nose should have been more aerodyne as well.
And why is Uhura in platforms, thigh highs, and a miniskirt? I'm not complaining but she's standing there showing off this sPACE ARROW off like it's her own personal fuckpad.

>Not U.S.S AnkleHoops

>>53605500
Except I thought Operation Give The Borg WMDs was the main thing behind the Warlord Janeway meme. That and "there's coffee in that nebula"

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>>53545694
We played a couple games with it. It was fun and did a good job replicating the feel of the show.

I'd hesitate to recommend it to a new GM because it isn't finished (it's mostly playable, but missing things like rules for recharging one of the game's narrative metacurrencies) and relies on the GM's ability to dynamically manage the story using pools of "threat" and "momentum" which determine the level of difficulty the player characters face

>>53607385
It's more of a general thing. And the Warlord Janeway thing specifically comes from that episode where they're portrayed as mirror-universe monsters in some 2-bit race's revisionist history.

My main problem with Janeway is that she's a hypocrite. She'll happily breach the prime directive on her own watch, but she'll condemn others for similar actions.

>>53604757
Looks like we have our next badguy for JJTrek

>>53607672
>communist Federation
How is this different from the regular Federation?

>>53609309
Instead of post-scarcity utopian society you have a totalitarian dystopian society where everyone is poor.
Also ships have a political officer now.

/STO/ peeps, is there any benefit to using Antiproton weapons over phasers?

>>53609874
Pretty colours.

Be ambitious, make the angry rainbow warship a reality.

>>53609323
So it's the Empire from the Mirror Universe?

>>53609323

I thought they just called the political officers counsellors now.

>>53610020
Hardly. Despite the memes, Troi and Ezri Dax are both counsellors in the traditional sense. If anybody gonna turn out to be a political officer, it's going to be one of SFI's spooks.

>>53609997
Cannons or beams?

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>>53609874
They do different things when they crit.
Phasers have a 5% or so chance of turning off a random power on enemy ship (Shields go offline, weapons go offline, space magic goes offline, engines go offline).
AP on the other hand does larger quantities of extra damage upon crit.

Then there are all sorts of special types of weapons which either mix some damage types or just have different crits on them as regular ones, but those are said in the weapons description.

In the end, i say you should just pick the one you fancy the most.

>>53609323
So Romulans?

>Instead of post-scarcity utopian society you have a totalitarian dystopian society where everyone is poor.

It's not exactly like anyone in Starfleet is shown to be rich or anything. There are a few rich civilians but they aren't even part of the Federation since they come from places that use money.

>>53611095
But Bashir's Dad, notoriously incapable of keeping a job, can afford to travel from Earth to Bajor. Odds are that the people of the UFP are doing alright.

Alright, I've got $30 to burn on STO and I'm looking to P2W. Which ship should I get for a KDF tactical character?
I'm leaning towards the Kortar Class Pilot Raptor, just because it has an extra fore weapon slot, but obviously I'm open to suggestions.

>>53611459
>$30 to burn on STO and I'm looking to P2W
That'll get you a T6 ship. But you'll need a lot of Dilithium and EC to fit it out

>>53611459
Best KDF ship is the temporal D7, but it's a R&D pack ship so good luck grinding enough to get one.

Save your Zen for now and grind the dil for another $30 so you can get a 3-pack.

>>53613053
>Temporal D7
Isn't that ship worth ~$200?

>>53613147
Wouldn't surprise me.

>>53613147
I bet all of those R&D TOS ships are worth that, hell, the connie is probably worth even more.

What do you guys think of the Kurak Battlecruiser? It looks really fucking nice stat-wise, but I've been using dual cannons exclusively since I started playing and this thing's got an abysmal turn rate.

>>53613726
>>53611459

I ended up buying a B'rel retrofit. It's just so goddamn sexy.

>>53614788
Solid choice. I've seen klink players use her well in multiplayer queues

>>53609997
didn't there use to be a penalty for mismatching your beam weapons, like power drain?

is that gone, or never was a thing?

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>>53614788
Damn straight

>>53615121
Not sure if there ever was such a thing.
The thing most folks probably have against it is that instead of you firing 8 individual beams which have 4 chances each per firing cycle to crit, so by having all be one and same energy type would increase your chances of critting for that certain damage type.

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>>53615121
That was never a thing. However, there are things that buff certain weapon types, which buff things more than the ones that buff weapons categories. For example, you'll get a +25% buff with a +Beam thing, but you'll get a +30% buff from a +Phaser thing, at the same rarity and mark. Of course, those are usually T1 buffs, so the actual difference isn't 5%, but .5%, or whatever, depending on your higher-tier buffs, so in the modern meta rainbow boats are perfectly acceptable. In the past they were still perfectly acceptable, but it just happened that the people that tended to use them didn't know how to play the game in the first place.
Also, if you are looking for a certain proc, having more chances to proc is better. Since the proc rates are so abysmal for energy weapons, you'd want to put as many of that proc on your ship to even get a chance at it.
What DID give you a penalty was mixing different weapons categories, like beams and cannons. It's not a direct penalty, but since each category has different boff powers that buff them, you're losing out big time by mixing it up. That's one reason people don't use torps much.

>>53615577
>>53615638
I see, thanks admirals.

>>53607672
>communist Federation
>warp drive is now chemical rockets
Kek

>>53615805
If ship is burn fast enough surely lightspeed will be achieved, comrade.

>>53615805
Is warp exhaust comrade, for expelling evil capitalist antimatter

>>53616954
you are joking but there are soviet sci-fi stories about relativistic spaceships travelling out to other stars, then returning home to see it advanced by hundreds of years, then boarding new spacecraft that can achieve even higher fraction of c and travel even further, return millenia later etc

>>53615638
That's a hideous ship. The rectangular portrusions on the saucer ruin it.

>>53618035
She's supposed to be a carrier. Doesn't look as terrible with her normal colours.

So how would one go about building a Dauntless? Right now I have her set up for a drain build but I was thinking of investing in something a little heavier on DPS.

>>53607672
delet this right fucking now

>>53609874
AP has higher CritD - higher overall DPS, but no proc (which can range from useless phaser space-flashbangs to polarons sucking the life out of your minmaxed EPS systems)

I'm planning on getting a Star Trek game up and running in the Fall, and I haven't decided on which of the games yet.
I've been looking mostly at of course the official lines but also Far Trek.

For those who playtested Adventures, how is the ship combat handled? Does everyone feel useful, is the Captain redundant?

For those who have run Star Trek games how do you determine chain of command. Any tips for such a game in general?

>>53609874
When the game was fresh, AP had flatout the highest damage, and IIRC the other beams had such a low proc rate it was worthless to use them, and Plasma torpedoes were king.

>>53620392
Haven't all the procs been getting repeatedly nerfed to try and solve the beamspam meta?

>>53620722
Yeah but Phasers had a half a percent proc chance over the current 2.5 I think.

>>53618253
Even in normal collies she just looks lumpy

>>53544724
The Prime Directive as a catch-all moral compass. Relations with alien races and foreign states must be an incredibly nuanced affair, so throwing a single, fairly nebulous rule in to govern all foreign relations seems, dare I say, like shoddy writing.

>>53611240
They mention he goes from job to job, but never mention anything about pay or it costing money to go to Bajor (it probably cost money to get Julian genetically enhanced but that was black market as fuck). If anything he was probably just on a waiting list for a while despite being a colossal fuck-up.

>>53622776
In terms of foreign relations, the Prime Directive simply says to not get involved in other peoples' internal affairs. For example, Bajor is considered an internal protectorate of Cardassia until shortly before DS9. Federation can put all kinds of external pressure on the Cardassians to treat the Bajorans well: diplomatic pressure, trade conditions, taking in refugees so the Cardassians don't have a slave labor force, and so on. What they can't do is invade Cardassian territory to liberate Bajor, conduct hit-and-run raids on conveys going to Bajoran space, or assassinate key Cardassian political and military figures who are in favor of occupying Bajor.

There have been a ton of argument even in-universe that the Prime Directive is not best for Federation interests, but as a whole the Federation is a more optimistic and progressive sci-fi organization with the Prime Directive being written as a meta counter to real life colonialism and neo-colonialism.

>>53622638
>>53618253
How should a classic (TOS/TMP) Federation carrier look? Obviously a saucer for the bridge and nacelles and a secondary hull for the warp drive and deflectors, but what about flight decks? They'd be full of volatile ordnance that needs to be kept isolated, but ergonomically located for small craft launching or returning...maybe Battlestar Galactica-style pods on outriggers?
I know TNG-era Starfleet has the Akira and Typhon...

>>53611240
>>53622864
Getting to Bajor of all places would probably be pretty cheap and easy. Lots of trade and such going in that direction, and it doesn't seem too far from Earth.
Also, just because he's not terribly good at anything doesn't mean he's not paid decent enough. It doesn't seem he's the kind of guy that gets fired from his job for incompetence, but just that he's an indecisive wanker, with delusions of grandeur that won't be satisfied with anything less than upper management. A middle-class couple today can go overseas with little difficulty; I don't see why that would be too different in the Trek future.

>>53624162
It would be a Constellation.
>four nacelles
>seven shuttlebays

>>53624251
Now that I think about it, through-deck carriers would have no advantage over a bunch of shuttlebays...aren't fighters a lot bigger than shuttlecraft, though?

>>53624341
Not really. Runabouts in particular can be larger than fighters and fit just fine into Starfleet shuttlebays. By TNG/DS9 you had almost an entire saucer deck dedicated to Shuttlebay 1 on the Galaxy class so size pressure on fighters relaxed a bit.

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>>53624162
TOS-era? Take the Ptolemy-class and modify the pod. Best part is some of the pods can operate independently, albeit limited to impulse.

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>>53624162
SFM postulates the Al Burak and Swordfish classes for carriers. They're not massive carriers in terms of amount of craft, but do carry some chunky fighters.

http://www.starfleet-museum.org/alburak.htm It's actually got a really nice block of fluff about the development and use of carriers/fighters at that time, more than I could copy&paste here. Including explaining why they would even have fighters given the capabilities of the cruisers of the time.

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>>53624429
Here's the profile and first three decks of the passenger pod. The critical systems don't start until F deck (bridge) so any of the top 5 decks can simply be gutted, put blast doors on either end and you have yourself a flight deck pod. The rest of the recreational areas can be converted into support facilities and crew quarters so the pilots and related personnel can be comfortably stationed in the pod themselves.

>>53624691
Imagine finding one of these just drifting around in the 24th, heavily modified by the descendants of the original crew and passengers for long term habitation after their tug exploded/dumped them.

>>53626096
Harry Kim then has glow-in-the-dark sex with one of the local girls.

>>53624162
>carriers in Trek
Nope

>>53626289
What, not even as a sealift equivalent stuffed with cargo and shuttlecraft? Transporters aren't always viable...

>>53626232
And then gets an official reprimand on his record like he was some kind of sex offender or something because Janeway decided to act like a pissy soccer mom over it.

>>53624251
>Seven shuttlebays
Ok thanks Crimsby.

>>53626603
Best part is when she says it would have been perfectly acceptable if he were Tom Paris.

>>53626755
I think the meaning was that it would have been expected from Tom not the by the book Kim.

Though Kim has had bad run ins with female aliens before, remember the "vampire" ladies from earlier seasons

>>53627026
Consider this.

Tom got promoted despite he colossal fuck ups.

Harry did not despite being as accomplished.

It's almost like Janeway is showing favouritism to the son of her best admiral friend

>>53627226
It's funny how Nog, an underage busboy when Harry Kim got stranded in the Delta Quadrant, outranks him when he gets home.

Poor, dumb Harry.

So what characters from the shows appear in STO as of 2410? And what ranks do they hold?

>>53627226
Paris displays ambition and is willing to face the music when he breaks the rules.

The only time that Kim displays actual ambition is in the last season when he takes command of that stealth ship.

>>53627355
Odds are everybody got a promotion or 2 when they got back to Earth.

>>53628167
I started digging through my memory to remember them all, then i decided to check STO wiki for any further info and found this convenient list.

http://sto.gamepedia.com/List_of_canon_characters

>>53628167
Miral Paris - Lt. Cdr.
Worf - action hero
Sela - sometime RSE empress
Tuvok - Commodore/1* Admiral (USS Voyager)
Poor Dumb Harry - Captain (USS Rhode Island)
Poorer Dumb Harry - Ens./monster
Tom Paris - Captain (USS Racecar)
Totally-not-Kurn-because-he-doesn't-remember-and-looks-different - General
Nog - Captain (USS Chimera)
Jet'Laya - official Kobali jerkface
Leeta - hologram
Mirror Leeta - wannabe Empress
Chekov - Captain of time cops
Daniels - convenient NPC of convenience
Seven of Nine - official bitchy old lady
Doctor - official holographic hippy doctor
Neelix - Ambassador
Scotty - Captain

>>53628292
>Odds are everybody got a promotion or 2 when they got back to Earth.

Except Harry Kim. Because he's Starfleet's whipping boy.

>>53628338
Oh, and Kahless also shows up, but it's not the guy from the show. You also hear Spock in a time travel mission, but don't see him.

>>53627355
Well that's because of the whole Dominion War and all of the suddenly vacant officer spots in Starfleet plus Nog being actually competent engineer.

I imagine lot of people Kim graduated with from the Academy are either dead, seriously wounded or so scarred mentally that they left Starfleet.

And then there is the fact that of all those new Captains and Commanders that would have had longer time to grow in their positions, Now imagine these officers forged in the most lethal war Federation had experienced. Going out to the more peaceful exploration and scientific discovery missions. It won't be fun for any poor sap of aliens that think bullying those types is going to end well for them.

>>53628338
Natasha Yar - Snake... had a hard life

>>53628401
>I imagine lot of people Kim graduated with from the Academy are either dead, seriously wounded or so scarred mentally that they left Starfleet.
To be fair, if Voyager didn't have a magic reset button every week, Kim would've been just as wounded and/or mentally scarred as the crew of the Equinox.

Captain Ransom did nothing wrong.

>>53628423
>Captain Ransom did nothing wrong

Oh he did plenty wrong. But he was willing to do anything for his crew. But for Voyager appearing at the last moment, he'd have gotten his ship back to Earth. Where he would have promptly been arrested and sent to prison for a long long time. But his crew would be home, and that's what matters to him.

Ransom might make a terrible Starfleet captain, but he's still one hell of a captain.

>>53628492
Sometimes the right thing to do is the immoral thing to do. Ransom's ship was smaller and weaker than Voyager. He didn't have a magic reset button, and he'd gotten his ass kicked to the point where simply flying home wasn't an option. So he had two choices: Condemn his crew to death based upon vague principles written by people safe in paradise, or break those principles in order to safe sapient lives.

He made a hard choice, and an immoral one, but I would argue he made the morally correct choice, because allowing principles to override saving sapient lives flies in the face of multiple moral systems (I could make cogent arguments based on either utilitarianism or Kantian morality just off the cuff, for instance).

Star Trek writers just suck at portraying nuance most of the time, so unfortunately Ransom is portrayed as The Bad Guy and all Janeway gets is "maybe she went a little crazy pursuing The Bad Guy but she was still right to do it." Fuck, even when Sisko committed war crimes by gassing an entire planet, it wasn't based on protagonist-centred morality. A better-written Equinox would've been one hell of a two-parter, probably among the best in the series, but alas.

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>>53626289
Against Starfleet and any other race that can do pic related then sure, but carriers have their place as exploration, survey and raiding ships. For Starfleet, have one as a mobile base of operations and sends scores of runabouts and shuttles out to look at stuff. For Klingons, make a massive fuck-off carrier that can hold its own fleet of BoPs.

>>53628782
If anything, a carrier would be more useful for combat drones than things like Birds of Prey, because even a ship like the Galaxy class has a finite number of weapons it can bring to bear at any time. If you send a few dozen drones along one axis, even if those drones only have like one phaser bank each, you can easily overwhelm their defenses while projecting a level of force that can't be diminished as a whole at once (as opposed to one ship taking systems damage and losing everything at once).

For all it was a shitty movie, Star Trek Beyond showed what a fuck-huge horde of tiny ships can accomplish against one bigger ship.

>>53628819
Outside of JJTrek because it's JJTrek, I don't think anyone in Trek has that fuck-huge of a horde of drones. Most Trek races seem content to build larger numbers of manned ships, even smaller BoPs and runabouts, instead of drones that could be easily messed with.

>>53628930
I'd imagine that's more a budget thing than anything else. Easy to show a small number of capital ships shooting at each other. Less easy to show dozens of smaller ships and/or drones swarming things.

IIRC Voyager ran into a swarm of drones or something at one point though.

>>53628930
The Suliban use Cell-Ships. Sort of a similar concept.

>>53629185
The issue for small craft like drones is that we see large ships, and on occasion smaller ships, use AoE style weaponry that a starship can tank but something like a drone or fighter would get incinerated in.

>>53630564
Star Trek portrays space combat happening basically at melee range, but in any kind of realistic sense, many thousands of kilometres would be considered "short range." If you can spam AoE attacks that can cover billions of square kilometres at once, then good for you, I guess, but given that it takes whole fleets to smash up planets (ref. The Die Is Cast), I'd call that doubtful to say the least.

>>53626096
Would make a good horror-themed episode, honestly. With the population turning into Calhoun's Universe 25 experiment on a larger scale, with humans.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Z760XNy4VM

>>53630811
That would require abundant resources that probably wouldn't be present in a large cargo container to the degree that the Universe 25 experiment becomes applicable.

More likely would be a Hills Have Eyes IN SPAAAAACE!!!! thing.

Although a few generations probably isn't enough time for the really interesting deformities to start.

>>53630811
Some guy did that in a previous thread, except on board a Deadalus class ship

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>>53628571
>It's easy to be a saint in paradise
I think Ransom and Sisko would have got along well.

>>53628401
>Now imagine these officers forged in the most lethal war Federation had experienced. Going out to the more peaceful exploration and scientific discovery missions. It won't be fun for any poor sap of aliens that think bullying those types is going to end well for them.
...jesus fuck, I never thought of that.

>>53631077
Can you imagine the shit that is going to go down next time there is a nausicaan pirate raid?

Or the poker face that is going to happen when Starfleet brass starts reading the reports.

>Says her the other ship was disabled, not destroyed. Yet there were no survivors taken in for questioning.
Yes. When we beamed over to their ship there were no survivors.
>How can that be Captain, at least 70% of the ship was still habitable at the time.
There were no survivors when we went on to their ship
>But surely
Listen to what I am telling you. We beamed on to their ship and there were no survivors. Do you understand? Do you need me to speak slower or is your Translator on the fritz? There were no survivors. Do you understand me?
>I... yes. Yes I understand you.
Good.

>>53631021
Got links and/or greentext?

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>>53631235
>an entire generation of Starfleet is nothing but O'Briens

>>53630962
Innsmouth?

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>>53631244
Context: We were talking about how Daedalus Class ships must be crowded, so thins guy took it to the extreme and wrote what it would be like if there was close a thousand on board.

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Welp! I finally got the resources (and skill levels) to get that new item set.
The space set is pretty meh i gotta say, i was expecting more gold and such based on the items image.

>>53632147
What set is this?

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>>53632147
The deflector looks kinda odd with the triangular hologram thingy, but whatever.

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>>53632168
The competitive wargames space set.

I like the way they added some extra engine parts on this set.

>>53628338
>Daniels - convenient NPC of convenience
It sucks to be Daniels desu
But it always sucked to be Daniels

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Another thing i got today was the ground set from the same grind tree.

Decided to color mine in Adeptus Custodes inspired manner.

>>53632336
What about 40k makes it so that people feel need to splice it onto everything?

Kinda like ponies.

>>53632462
It looks sweet, in an 80s hair/metal sort of way.

>>53632744
In this particular instance, sure. I'm just puzzled by the phenomenon in general.

>>53632954
I was referring to the setting, not the suit.

File: Duelist Romulan.jpg (84KB, 293x683px) Image search: [Google]

84KB, 293x683px

>>53633055
Probably because it's a very popular setting.

Have some Romulan duelist armor.

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>>53633668
>>53633668
>>53633668
>>53633668

>>53628423
>>53628492
>>53628571
>One of the VOY pocket novels
>Chakotay being lectured by Adm. Paris(?)
>"I've seen some shit, you weren't there for the Dominion War, we had to compromise our principles, it was a super dark time, etc etc"
>pic related
If VOY was done properly, either a la Equinox or at least early BSG, how would it have been?

File: JJB8.jpg (188KB, 680x794px) Image search: [Google]

188KB, 680x794px

>>53632462