/WMG/ Warmachine and Hordes General

So how about that David letterman?

>>53536724
Are you in the right thread?

Any opinion for the Protectorate All in One Battlebox? I'm thinking of getting it but I don't know if it is playable out of the box.

>Go to LGS for gaming night
>Can't keep track of most things, as half the people are playing CID shit I haven't kept up on

CID was a mistake.

>>53537151
Step 1: Have them bring the CID rules they want to use.
Step 2: There is no step 2.

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"These soldiers are always kind enough to dig their own graves. True cygnarian courtesy."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z1lTTRGvwRA

You know, this is pretty fucking good.

>"Failed charge! Suck it half-inch melee ranges!"
>"I call bullshit, you didn't say that crate was rubble until I had started moving. I thought it was a hill!"
>"And the rest?"
>"I can't get you into melee range with the first bonejack being where it is."
>"You should have pre-measured, newb."
>"You're not even 5 minutes older than me! And I did! They don't let you lay down proxy bases anymore to see if charges later in the turn have things ruined by future base footprints!"
>"Oh, look, a Cryxian blaming their suckage on PP."

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>>53537347
>"This video would've been over two turns ago if I still had mk2 Banez!"

>>53537347
>Comments are disabled for this video

lol...yep

>>53537184

Confusion aside, he's right.

CID means they don't know if it's balanced or not. So you aren't playing models anymore, you're playing 'states' of models. One week it might be bullshit, next more bullshit, next fine, back to bullshit, etc.

It's not consistent across players, shops or models. Bad idea.

>>53537626
>expecting any company to open themselves to infamous Youtube comments

>>53537680

>In my defense, the 2016 Packet had gotten stale as fuck.

>>53537347
The cryx jacks I could get, but why is the cygnaran jack grunting like an autistic dog? is this established fluff wise?

>>53538573
warjacks are big ol puppers, didn't you know?

>>53537707
>Spotted the PP employee
>Get back to work balancing your game
>And by work, I mean farming that out to your player base because you're incompetent.

>>53537861
SR 2017 is pretty bad right now. I hope they change it.

>>53538573
>cygnaran jack grunting like an autistic dog?

Five star post nigga. Vid was pretty bad.

>>53538666
ya caught me. It'sa me: Will Pastrami!

Are people still playing this game? I remember it exploded a few years ago when people were thinking it was set to surpass GW, but now seems less popular than Infinity. Am I wrong?

>>53538717

Nah, it died with Mk 3 in a lot of spots. Mk 3 was/is pretty much a disaster, although they've managed to stop the bleeding...somewhat

still pretty shitty and disorganized. Just like their company

>>53538717
I think that ()like practically every game) it really depends on what your local community is like. I heard places still played lots. None where I live though, baring the times I have friends over for a match.

>>53538767
Gw-tier?
>>53538784
I just used to hear talking abut it a lot on the internet for a while and then it kinda disappeared

>>53538815

It's upside down world now anon. GW is making Mk 2 PP moves and PP making traditional GW moves.

GW moves were malicious though back in the day, PP is just incompetent.

>>53538876
Yeah, I've been away from the hobby for a while and now it's just a complete mess. The only company that seems like is doing well is Corvus Belli as far as I can tell

>>53538876
I honestly feel like the guys at PP have burned out and don't know who to give the balancing burden to on the inside. Hence the CIDs and the "We'll balance everything out according to how much players complain about it"

>>53537680
This really isn't that difficult.

>Player 1: Hey, do you mind playing with the CID rules I've got printed out right here? If not, I've got a non-CID list I can play.
>Player 2: Sure!

or

>Player 2: Nah, can we just play live stuff I'm familiar with?
>Player 1: Sure!

This interaction can even survive a moderate amount of autism.

>>53537151
You could just, you know, not participate in CID

>>53539268
>>53539324

Not my point or post but thanks.

>>53538936
>>53538930

Agreed. It might be burn out, not sure. I know from insiders that morale is pretty shitty and pay has always been shitty. When you see big retailers like MM moving mass amount of established product at crazy low sales, that's a pretty bad sign too of how poor product is moving.

CID is just desperation at this point.

But hey, Matt's wife made a shitty animated short so there's that.

>>53539712
Too bad because they had interesting ideas and the miniatures were quite nice too

So in IKRPG I'm running a campaign where the PCs are tasked to do various things to help the populace, in the employ of Khador. First mission and session a few days ago was to track down and arrest some kidnappers, release their victims if they are alive and neutralize a rampant steamjack. After taking down the warjack at the entrance, they killed some guys that were preparing to ambush them, released the prisoners, and then killed the three leaders in another room.

My question is how I can allow them to not kill their targets, they kind of forgot the mission and aren't that murderhobo-y, but the system doesn't really seem to allow non-lethal takedowns without being much less effective. Do I just allow them to specify they're not aiming to kill and make the enemies survive? Should I roll on the damage table when they take someone down, so there's a small chance they die and there's some risk as they may still be able to fight?

>>53539712
Well, they aren't dead yet. If they get to make the next season of SR interesting enough for stores to showcase WMH, then they've got better odds already.
Step 1. Finish fixing the game.
Step 2. Get the community interested again.
Step 3. Get store owners interested again and amp up the marketing.

Honestly, after fixing the game, releasing a good board game could be the marketing they need to bring in some new blood or bring back old players that still have models lying around.

>>53539985

''they back up and raise their hands'/they shout "I surrender!"' can do wonders.

Anyone got the new NQ 72 to share?

>>53539985
Check the IKRPG core rule book for Knocked Out. There are a few ways to net it. Off the top of my head:

>Urban Adventures
Choke Hold
Pistol Whips, Pommel bashes, Stock Strikes
Large Objects
Bottles
Saps
Thrown small objects

>Kings Nations and Gods
Garrote
Clockwork Garrote
Explosive Pen (Knockout)
Remel's Embrace

>Core
Club
Banded Club
Knuckle Dusters
Mace
Battle Staff
Trench Knife
Trench Sword
Warhammer
Jack Wrenches
Alchemical Grenades (knock out bomb)
Knock out strike (pg 209)

All provide additional means to nonlethally take out a target.

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>>53539985
Why don't they just use knockout gas?

>>53539712
>m-m-muh clearance sale
Go back to shilling in your home thread. An online retailer having a summer sale isn't a sign of the fucking apocalypse.

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New ADR is up:
http://privateerpress.com/community/privateer-insider/insider-5-31-2017

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>>53540498
NTR confirmed

>>53539712
I honestly don't know what you people want. Everybody keeps hating on how wmh is dying yet it's still second only to warhammer. If that's dead then I don't know what isn't. You can't topple warhammer and that is the only step left to take. Are all video games dead if they can't make league of legends numbers?

>>53540498
>http://privateerpress.com/community/privateer-insider/insider-5-31-2017
About time. Now if only the Skorne ADR wasn't so utterly garbage.

>>53540498
OH GOD THE SKORNE ONE THE QUARTET OF GARBAGE FUCK ME MY SIDES.

Stupid noob question. I bought the mk3 rule book, haven't received it yet. When I get it and learn the rules, is there a single place I can get all of the errata from? All official tournaments use the latest errata, correct?

>>53540744
>>53540747

Morg3 isn't that bad, you babies.

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Curious, but is it me or does the little girl caster's outfit seem too modern for the time period she would have lived in?

Also, do the Grymkin have any special animosity for Menites?

>>53540789

He's awful. Talk to me when he actually has a feat.

(Buh buh buh muh nihilators!)

>>53540747
Hey Hexy2 is good.

>>53540789
He isn't that bad. Problem is you can't really build a good pair out of those casters. Hell, there's one caster in there that can fix damage and it's fucking Xekaar.

>>53540831
t. shitter

>>53537347

Well that sucked.

>>53540789
Claims of casters being acceptably good are not allowed in the Skornefag General Thread™, enjoy your shadow ban

>>53540211
They got one or two shot within a single round, future encounters shouldn't be as one-sided but it still is much harder to do that with such a fast system. I guess I could just set a treshold and have a big chunk of "hp" that treshold where they'll give up but not die, but that's the same as making them not die when they hit 0.

>>53540320
I just want it to be easier than that, knockout strikes are fine for certain characters but a sorcerer or rifleman would gimp themselves severely if they used that. Knockout grenades are expensive, clubs and such are unreliable since you have to crit and they're only melee. I will point out the options to safely knock someone out, but I think I still want to allow them to non-lethally take someone down any way, just with a chance of killing them or not completely incapacitating them.

>>53536383
what the fuck happened to this game? the new addition launched and maybe the next 2 months was full of events and now its absolutely dead at the stores

>>53540834

Hexy2 is C grade junk. He's a Blackspot gimmick that has no other gameplan and a feat that is pure garbage.

Morghoul3 is another "Hey LOOK GUYS SPELLSLINGER HERO THAT'S FURY6 NO ARCNODE LUL GOOD GAEM DESIGN THERE." Also his feat sucks ass.

>>53541151

>NO ARCNODE

I thought you channeled their spells through a beast like a Razor Worm or something?

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>>53541112
No clue, same happened to me. New edition launched, I had to focus on classes so left the hobby for a few months, come back and no events anywhere.

>>53541225
Only with Hexeris.

>>53541151
>Hexy2 is C grade junk.
Heh. That's so funny anon.

>>53541225

That's a Hexeris only thing. The only other caster that can arc is Rasheth.

>>53541225
Only people who can channel in Skorne are

>Hexeris1 due to a single target bg upkeep
>Hexeris2 due to FM Channeler
>Rasheth via hurting his own guys

Outside of that there are no ways to channel spells.

>>53541112
Everyone realised what a clusterfuck Mk3 was. It's almost like they shouldn't have pushed its release forward by a year because some shitty accountant was panicking over sales.

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>>53540498
>kick Old Witch
>kick Strakhov
>kick Malakov

Oh wow, they actually removed Khador's worst 3 casters from ADR and replaced them with useful ones.

The good:
- 4 perfectly playable caster choices, feels good.
- three of these (all but Zerkova) work out-of-theme


The bad:
- 2 of these casters want Legion of Steal(yourpoints) and the other two don't want any themes usually. No Winter Guard pick, no Jack caster.
- Irusk2 and Strakhov2 are basically the same model, so playing both would be super redundant unless you want to play hyper Infantrymachine.

>>53541112
>>53541236
PP bungled it up in every way possible and and basically threw enough fuel to the inferno that many left. The hyper competitive crowd who pays attention to the game as life stayed and the very new people who had no understanding of what's going on or the controversy surrounding everything got in.

The middle field with casuals basically left the game in droves because the game wasn't tight ruleswise to satisfy the crunch they needed and to figure out answers themselves but the game also wasn't balanced enough that they could casually throw together whatever they wanted to play the game.

This is also the time where there's A LOT of competition for decent games and now GW of all fucking people are being looked as a decent outlet for games.

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>>53540498
>Ragnor for goodstuff
>Calandra for cheese
>Doomy2 for sucker punching

Will Trollbabies finally shut the fuck up?

>>53541514
No

Still garbage infantry selection with no damage buffs.
animus sucks
You can't even ADR seaking
Still doesn't change the fact that 2 out of 3 madraks are complete garbage

until actual rules change Trolls will never be good.

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There are 5 casters in Skorne who can be considered "bad". They just nailed 4 of them. Without the ability to lean on Zaadesh2 in D&C0 events, Skorne cannot play this ADR lineup.

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>>53540498
I say quite a bit when I say these changes are HUGE in the CoC community.

>>53542003
>Talking shit on naaresh
go shove needles up your dick buddy

>>53542452
Why are you so offended. Everyone already knows that you never trust a Skorne player's opinion on what's good or bad in their faction. Same with Trolls and old Khador.

>>53542452
He's cetainly the best of the bunch, but there are much better heavy spam casters to the point where he's sort of redundant. My fucking GOD though this is a steaming pile of shit. We can't play theme lists, we can't play ADR. I hate this faction.

>>53540786
privateerpress.com/errata

>>53542422
honestly I never much enjoyed Axis so this is perfectly fine to me. I always felt that Lucant had more options to bring to the table, and pairing him with Iron Mother was always a lot more enjoyable.

>>53541514

You crack me up autist. Yes, ADR fixes bad factions....

Just like making certain zones infantry focused fixes infantry.....

How about they just fix the fucking problem? Man PP fucking sucks now.

>>53543131
I've been away for a while, so sorry if the answer to this question is obvious.

Wasn't the point of the new card model from Mk3 (version and year number) to be able to quickly tweak models or factions that are broken or laughably bad? Have PP not been doing this?

>>53544067
>Wasn't the point of the new card model from Mk3 (version and year number) to be able to quickly tweak models or factions that are broken or laughably bad?
Yes.
>Have PP not been doing this?
No.

>>53540814
>Also, do the Grymkin have any special animosity for Menites?

They are led by a bunch of people who were damned because they told Menoth to fuck off.

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>>53544145
wew PP. That's like going to the groceriy store for 24 rolls of toilet paper and spending the whole month not even wiping...

>>53537347
Good to see PP are still putting the "cringe" in "promotional video oh god it hurts".
> Produced, Written & Directed by Matt Wilson
...yeah.

>>53544452
They haven't done anything to attempt to balance the game since the forced Una2 nerf a few months ago. Don't know about you but I'm sick of some factions having powerful theme lists while others are left to wilt. As a Skorne player, this new ADR lineup is frankly the shit flavoured icing on the shit flavoured cake.

>>53540814
The Child's aesthetic design is just fucking awful and uninspired. I hope her end-of-CID rules stay as they are because otherwise theres zero reason to use her.

>>53541151

No, Hex2 is pretty decent. I can't speak as to Morghoul3, but you're sounding pretty certain on the internet anon, which tends to be a reciprocal thing.

ded game

>>53541514
Wasn't the point of ADR to have less represented warlocks on the field?
These ones are like the top tier of Trollblood casters and are seen all the time.

>>53541225
There are no natural arc nodes in Skorne. The only ways spells can be arced are:
>Rasheth
Can use any warrior in control range as a node. The warrior takes a d3 of magical damage after the spell is done.
>Hexeris1
Has an upkeep that turns a beast into an arc node.
>Hexeris2
Has field marshal channeler.
>Mordikaar
Can turn any friendly faction model in control range into a SP6 with POW equal to the model's base STR+5. It's not really an arced spell, but there are a lot of similarities.

>>53544452
Aren't the errata bi-annual? So they only get dropped in winter and summer!

>>53545348
I believe their stated intent back then ADR started was to have a list of warcasters/locks that are never paired together, not necessarily never played. The two groups probably have a lot of overlap. If you're never played, you definitely aren't paired with anyone.

I do feel sorry for those casters/locks that are on the list two seasons in a row, barring the new ones and CoC. Darius, Thyron, Morv1 and the like must be in a pretty bad spot that even a season of specialists couldn't save them.

>>53536383
goddammit anon you had one fucking job..

where the fuck are the links to the abridged lore??

>>53536383
GODDAMMIT ANON KEEP THESE IN OP AND DON'T FUCK IT UP AGAIN..

Gargantuans:
https://pastebin.com/XPKMKYUc

Exigence:
https://pastebin.com/6D1fwSgv

(i can't find the third one)

>>53545307
As a newer player I don't see why you'd play hexeris2 over rasheth? I do like Hexy2s model/fluff tho. They're both spell flinging control-lite casters and rasheth just seems better

>>53546500
you need to chill man. Sorry I missed putting two outdated irrelevant books in the thread I made for us all. also: FUCK YOU WHY DONT YOU HAVE THE THIRD ONE (???) HOW DARE YOU SHOW YOUR FACE ROUND HERE.

>>53546516

Hexy2's a brawler. Rasheth is one of those Skorne warlocks you spend the game trying to keep away... from the game.

>>53546500
>*AND SO BORKA RIDES OUT ON A BEAR THAT HE ACQUIRED THROUGH THE POWER OF FRIENDSHIP AND/OR NARRATIVE EXPEDIENCY TO CONFRONT THE GREAT EVIL THREATENING HIS HOME KRIEL WITH A SMALL NUMBER OF HIS CHILDREN IN TOW, SOME OF WHOM HE EVEN KNOWS*
>BORKA: I'VE ALWAYS BEEN PROUD OF YOU...SON...GUY
>LILANDRA: DAD I'M A GIRL
>BORKA: OF COURSE YOU ARE SON


>BORKA: I THINK WE'VE ALL LEARNED SOMETHING TODAY
>LILANDRA: WHAT'S THAT DAD
>BORKA: THAT I HAVE BECOME A BETTER TROLLKIN AND A DEEPER, MORE THOUGHTFUL CHARACTER BY DOING THE EXACT SAME THING THAT I WAS INCLINED TO DO ALREADY
>LILANDRA: I DON'T THINK THAT EVEN QUALIFIES AS A MORAL
>BORKA: CHOKE ON A DICK SON


heheh- oh man, every time.

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Opinion on this bones list?

>>53547315
>Typical spam theme list
>Nobody care

>>53544971
The CID is something, anon

>>53547889
>The CID is something, anon

Well it doesn't count because of whine whine whine. PP should listen to me more because Im awesome and I say they should.

Not saying PP hasn't done a shit tone of fuckups, but people here just seem to want to directionlessly complain the night away.

>>53547889
He's a Skorne player, perhaps this can help put this into context:

Skorne has 1 theme list - a ranged theme list which is supported mainly by 2 casters (Rasheth and Morghoul2)
Skorne's command book still isn't out
Competitively, Skorne is stale at the moment, pretty much hinging around Makeda2, Morghoul2, Rasheth and Zaadesh2
Not all your options can be shared across the competitive builds for these casters ie. Makeda2's ferox aren't really gonna sit with Rasheth's competitive gunline
Recent meta changes, in particular to jack heavy support has left Skorne in a poor state for piece trading heavies - a notable example is Harkevich who runs more heavies than you and trades up via Marauders/Juggernauts
Skorne's recent releases (Chiron and Morghoul3) are rather hard sells
Morghoul3 hinges around a cost 3 offensive on a Fury 6 with no arc node
Chiron suffers in that his PC puts him in competition with strong heavies/char heavies such as Despoiler or combinations of lights which save points (ie. Krea + Drake has same offensive output and is cheaper)
ADR season 6 trades out one of their strong competitive options and an otherwise moderate lock for a lock that meta is currently not good for (Hexeris2) and a mediocre lock (Morghoul3)
And leaves in Mordikaar (who hasn't really made a splash since Mk3 began) and Xekaar (who plays around as a Cost 3 offensive on a Fury 6)

So competitively, none of Skorne's main roster of warlocks can take advantage of ADR's biggest benefit which helped mitigate the lack of themeforces, and Skorne does not have themeforces and aren't seeing any indications of having some soon which tentatively means that in many matchups they will be playing 12 to 15 pts down.

To add insult to injury, Trollbloods and Cryx received a new themeforce in the CID and Grymkin's entire faction may possibly be out before the Skorne themes drop.

If Skorne is lucky, they might get some love by Gencon.

So naturally, he's gonna be a bit salty.

>>53546516
To bend over Ghost Fleet.

>>53547807
List building is fucking dull in Mk3. Take a theme, spam the shit that gives you free shit, then add that free shit. How very inspiring.

>>53548041
>Well it doesn't count because of whine whine whine. PP should listen to me more because Im awesome and I say they should.
That's not how CID works

>>53548647
You're doing it wrong then

>>53548668
Am I? Look at the top lists from any event. They are constructed in this very same way. It's the same boring themes spamming the same boring shit.

>>53548679
Not really.

And if your argument is that tournament shit is all the same, then tournament shit in MKII mainly included the same regulars over and over again anyway.

Spam Kovnik Joe 100 Times in MKII Under Irusk 1 was awesome. But much more varied types and amounts of casters in MKIII is bad because fuck you logic is hard.

>>53548653
What is sacrasm?

>>53548679
>Look at the top lists from any event. They are constructed in this very same way. It's the same boring themes spamming the same boring shit.
This just isn't true.

But let's pretend it is, do you even play at the top events? The answer is probably no. So why should whatever random list Tom Guan is playing this week even remotely bother you?

>>53548780
>it was the same in Mk2
In Mk2 you could at least try to stray from the norm. Now you're rewarded for your effort with 10-20 less points. Congratulations. Now pick a theme, bitch.

What's more, in Mk2 the top lists were built by players. However creative or not those lists were, they were still written by players. Now PP writes your lists for you.

>>53548910
>This just isn't true.
Okay. Then I must have been dreaming when I played against the same shit over and over and over again.
>But let's pretend it is, do you even play at the top events? The answer is probably no. So why should whatever random list Tom Guan is playing this week even remotely bother you?
Sometimes. I don't win them, that's for sure, but the only requirement for playing in a lot of highly competitive events is "being in the area". But that is irrelevant as mid-level play is greatly influenced by high-level play.

What bothers me is that I can either try to write interesting lists or spam the same shit ad nauseam and get free points for it. It's same same shit as with Mk2 theme forces, but now everyone has to do it.

>>53548967
Sounds like you need to git gud anon. There are plenty of people who play the game without themes and have zero issues

>>53549315
>Sounds like you need to git gud anon
Oh sorry, I thought you had a point. Never mind.

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>>53546500
>CALANDRA: DUNNO BUT I DID SEE A SECOND SIGN
>MADRAK: AND WHAT DID THAT SAY
>CALANDRA: "I AM GOING TO FUCK YOUR MOUTH"
>MADRAK: THAT SOUNDS BAD
>CALANDRA: NOT REALLY I GET THAT ONE ALL THE TIME MY EX-BOYFRIEND IS AN ASSHOLE
Fuck this got me

>>53541111
>one or two shot in a round
wut? What level are you playing at? Because my first instinct would be to up the enemies DEF, ARM, or health. If it's "one or two shot in a round" that's "shitty mook that's just standing in the way" tier "bosses". Either make them tougher, GM fiat their survival, or plan around the enemies dying.

>>53541470
Pretty much this. I was in locations with no game store or I didn't have enough time to game for a few years. I finally get the time and have a location, they tell me the whole scene has died. All shortly after Mk III drops. There are a couple things that do piss me off. Such as ATGM losing True Sight. Now Cygnar gets to see stealth units and spam AOEs we don't have.

>>53545918
Supposedly yes.

>>53548967
Local meta isn't the meta everyone else plays faggot.

>>53549338
If you don't have the brainpower to make an answer to the problem lists, then this probably isn't the game for you.

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>>53549837
>I BELIEVE LORD CARVER WISHES TO ENTER INTO AN ALLIANCE WITH YOU BECAUSE YOU ARE THE ONLY ONE STRONG ENOUGH TO BEAR HIS CHILDREN AND ALSO BECAUSE "YOU PACK MUCH BACK"

>HIS WORDS NOT MINE

>>53550351
>Local meta isn't the meta everyone else plays faggot.
I did not say that though. You might want to read the post more thoroughly.

>If you don't have the brainpower to make an answer to the problem lists, then this probably isn't the game for you.
Oh never mind, you actually cannot read English sentences, can you?

>>53550375
>Okay. Then I must have been dreaming when I played against the same shit over and over and over again.
Wait, this isn't you describing your local meta? Are you the quantum gamer, able to play in all metas at once?

>Git gud & etc.
Well, if you were smart enough then you could find a answer to the problem lists. Since you are not able to find an answer, I can only conclude that you do not possess the brain power to do so.

So get fucked you faggot.

2 years ago I used to come here to post "Nice Regulation Paint Scheme..." and wait for the fallout.

Nowadays, I just feel really bad for you and the state of your game.

>>53550466
>Are you the quantum gamer, able to play in all metas at once?
No but I am able to travel.

>Since you are not able to find an answer
Not. What. I. Said. In fact I have rather good answers to the current meta in my pairing.

>So get fucked you faggot.
We can agree on that part. If you can't even be assed to read the posts you are responding to this conversation is going to be less than fruitful.

Why is nobody talking about it?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z1lTTRGvwRA

Now I wanna play Cygnar! They always win because 2 casters vs 1.

>>53550652
Cause we already did yesterday?

>>53550519
a truly ebin apology *tips spoon*

>>53550652
Are you just incapable of reading?

Anon, the thread doesn't consist of just the two or three posts you see when you choose to click reply...

Also, next time, ctrl-f is your friend to avoid reposting... it's what I do

The tragic tale of Skorne.

>Only remain competitive in Mk2 due to Xerxis1 and Rasheth having good tier lists, and Mordikaar having a good control game
>PP sees that Skorne is appearing in top results at Steamrollers and assumes all is well
>They come in and "change" the faction, dropping Titans down to DEF10 and as a result making Mordikaar's feat much worse
>They also nerf Revive so the model gets no action
>And nerf Cataphracts multiple times so Mordikaar doesn't even want to bring them anymore
>Then they delete tier lists, the only other way Skorne could compete
>So not only have Skorne's competitive options been stripped away, but the infantry spam that Incindiarii and Nihilators could keep up with are forcibly taken out of the game, exposing Skorne as a weak faction that cannot deal with heavies in a cost efficient manner
>Mk3 finally releases, and Skorne is unable to compete, even struggling at an LGS level
>Everyone screams at PP that Skorne just doesn't work as a faction
>PP claims the faction is fine
>This continues for a while, with PP even publicly insulting people who think Skorne is bad
>PP finally admits Skorne needs a complete overhaul and they were wrong after months of saying the complete opposite and insulting people over it like children
>Months of nothing go by
>The errata finally comes out and it's good
>Skorne gets a RANGED theme list
>Other factions start getting theme lists that Skorne simply can't compete with
>This continues for some time
>Skorne players look towards ADR as Zaadesh2 is on it and he's good
>New ADR is announced
>It's our 4 worst casters
>Still zero word of any theme lists or command books for Skorne

Honestly at this point the only reason I play the faction is because I already own it. I'd play Circle or Menoth otherwise.

>>53553067
>Other factions start getting theme lists that Skorne simply can't compete with
Wrong. We can very much compete.

>zero word of any theme lists or command books for Skorne
Good. They can keep them.

>New ADR
Yeah fuck that though. I'd have liked a good ADR. And if they just replaced Xekaar with a good beast caster it would even be playable.

>>53546500
I NEED THE THIRD ONE FIND IT.

>>53553067
>Honestly at this point the only reason I play the faction is because I already own it. I'd play Circle or Menoth otherwise.

Have you tried Immortals? Their guys seem happy.

>>53553067
>Honestly at this point the only reason I play the faction is because I already own it. I'd play Circle or Menoth otherwise.

Skorne was told it's stuff will be released last this year because of the amount of time/manpower to get the rework out early as it was.

it was either:

Skorne just sucks all the time till late this year
skrone gets decent. but has to wait till late this year to get ti's themeforces.

also our themeforces wouldn't make sence because the themeforces would be based on the rework coming out late this year and probably would still be broken because things aren't finallized inthe faction.

>>53553067
>>This continues for a while, with PP even publicly insulting people who think Skorne is bad
>>PP finally admits Skorne needs a complete overhaul and they were wrong after months of saying the complete opposite and insulting people over it like children

I think one of the many factors invovled in making PP finally relent and admit something was wrong or realize something was wrong was when Mike Hornacheck said Fuck this faction in disgust in how bad it was.

>>53554444

It's more that they circled back to where they were, and the meta had moved on in the meantime. So back to the old armored dudespam, and not a pacman to be seen.

What's one unit your change and how? Personally I'd give demo corps backswing again because holy fuck,they're lackluster right now in my eyes.

>>53554661
Yeah it takes alot for him to admit his faction is garbage.

>>53555691
ATGM UA grants True Sight again.

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>>53555691
Assault Kommandos get Relentless Charge and Hunter.

The Flamethrower gets Assault and the mk2 explosion.

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>>53555691
Give Kriel Warriors back their prayers in some fashion and make it so that caber throwers can attack every turn again

>>53544971
They're probably doing all errata through CID now since if they don't people bitch that their errata is bad. They can't fucking win with their community, someone gets ridiculously bitchy no matter what they do.

>>53556028
They're not doing anything, don't kid yourself. They aren't playtesting, they aren't trying to make their production cheaper, they likely aren't even theorycrafting. It's been almost a year since the release of Mk3 and honestly what have they done? Made some obvious buffs to Skorne? Fixed their Una2 fuck up in the easiest way possible? Brought out power creeped theme lists? It's been a fucking YEAR man.

>>53556498
>PP isn't doing anything
Publicly playtesting an entirely new faction, revamped their rules distribution and model release schedule, publicly playtestes buffs to a model type people have been asking about for years, put out models for every faction in the last six months.

This is exactly what I'm talking about. A ridiculously vocal part of the community has decided that PP is shit no matter what they do. No one is claiming they're perfect but it's fucking crazy to claim they're not doing anything.

>>53556747
>Publicly playtesting an entirely new faction
Frankly a terrible decision.

>revamped their rules distribution
Wow they created a PDF. Holy fuck stop the presses.

>model release schedule
This is a complete nothing.

>publicly playtestes buffs to a model type people have been asking about for years
Again, a complete nothing.

http://www.waylandgames.co.uk/legion-of-everblight/10788-raptors-cavalry-unit

I'll complain all I want with prices like that. It's like PP are doing shit, but it's not the shit they should be doing. Prices need to come down, shit models need buffs NOW. Just give them small little buffs like coming down by 1 point or SOMETHING.

>>53556747
>No one is claiming they're perfect but it's fucking crazy to claim they're not doing anything.

I don't think what a good game is really related to public perception. People were happy with MKII despite it being WAY more unbalanced and skew and spam favorable.

People just want sparkly new broken toys all the time.

>>53557014
>Prices need to come down, shit models need buffs NOW. Just give them small little buffs like coming down by 1 point or SOMETHING.

Because you said so? Prices I can understand, and I hope to some degree they are working on that.

But just "What I think is unnbalanced gets buffs because I said so!"

Like I said, people care more about shiny toys then long term game stability or balance. In MKII it was "Get Gud Scrb" so all balance complaints where brushed aside.

Now that PP has opened itself up to errata, people just want shiny things all the time.

>>53557049
>In MKII it was "Get Gud Scrb"
This. Plenty of warcasters were deemed unplayable.
Also, early in the edition, Eyriss was being fielded by every neckbeard within a 4 mile radius of a FLGS.
MkII was great, but it sure as hell felt unbalanced at times too. The meta just settled and people got used to the way it was.

>>53556747

>Failed army builder
>Failed video game
>Failed Mk 3
>Is now having it's own community design units for them because they can't balance shit
>Gives solos away in theme because they can't balance them
>Gives zones exclusive points for troopers because they can't balance them
>SR 2017 is a grindy clock win scenario that results in concession or time most games, zero fun or excitement

Sorry anon, PP has gone down the shitter. It's why the middle group of gamers, the juicy demographic (Guys that don't live for the game, travel to cons all the time, have no life like Tom Guan)...but game with each other once or twice a week have moved on.

That middle group of gamers, the guys that buy into factions for a cool new model and some interesting rules? They've moved on in my area. Warmahordes is dead here.

Yes yes, queue the guy saing "IT TOOK OFF HERE TOO" but too many warning signs point to that demographic leaving. Jay flat out stated in his Twitter his sales died. We just saw two major retailers for PP have a flash sale to move product, product that isn't old or dated. ChaosOrc will only buy to order now.

They were a lucky company once. They have a decent IP, their rules were pretty solid under DC and their metal miniatures were decent. Now;

Rules are fucked up
Miniatures are trash when they try to make plastic
They can't seem to expend their IP outside of the core game with any success

But hey they have time and money to make shitty animated short movies.

why don't they spend that time/money FUCKING POLISHING OR ACTUALLY MAKING THEIR ELECTRONIC PRODUCTS NICE? They're like an ADHD company with no leadership or focus.

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I personally enjoy playing a faction that is capable of winning a game against something other than Minions. Fuck mk2, I'm glad it's dead and I hope it burns in hell.

btw, what is everyone working on?

>>53557705
Well now you're playing the best faction in the game because you can comfortably play strong theme lists in ADR now.

>>53557705
Repainting everything. At minimum the minis are useful when I run IKRPG games.

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>>53557018
>sparkly new broken toys
No kidding. I got into X-Wing tournaments about a week after the TIE Phantom released, and it took until the inevitable nerfs to cloaking came down to admit to myself that the damn thing was fun to play BECAUSE it had a unique overpowered ability.

There's a bizarre euphoria derived from soundly winning because your wardudes are "special" [read: broken] and the other guy's dudes aren't.

>>53557676
>they have time and money to make shitty animated short movies
>rules are fucked up
what does creative have to do with rules balancing?
>miniatures are trash when they try to make plastic
honestly, aside from the misfitting together (which can be easily solved by warming and fitting the pieces together) I don't have a problem with the plastics.
>they can't seem to expand their IP outside of the core game
this I can agree with, but I'm not super bothered about it. IKRPG is pretty sought-after in my area, but that's not indicative of the whole. But why bother expanding if you're making enough money that you can afford to make shitty animated short movies?

>>53557705
Trying to nail down a consistent scheme for my Ret. My painting ADD has gotten terrible and I'm trying to rein it in this summer.

I guess I'll post pics of my half-painted shit after work to motivate myself.

>>53557856
>I don't have a problem with the plastics.

Now I know you're a fan boy. Put together some Warders. Or Champs. Or Highwaymen. Or any Convergence. Or the Skorne Hydra. Have fun shaving mold lines off with that plastic but not plastic so it peels and doesn't shave shit they use. It's just a shit product. At least the Chinamen can cast it better though, at 30% of the price.

It's a small shop dude. Once you work in business you realize you cannot start a project without it touching departments, other managers and employees you didn't see coming. In a small shop like PP, this is magnified. You have a bucket of resources, anything you do draws from that bucket period.

Maybe they should fix their shit before branching anymore. Or they can continue to bleed players.

>>53557705
Rules for a campaign I'll be playing with friends and terrain (mostly forests) to field whenever a battle occurs. Then, when I get my order from Minimarket, painting...

PP are being real fucking uncreative with the bonuses they give to themes. Why not hand out Specialist points as a bonus? Why not hand out the ability to substitute casters as a bonus? Why have 20/25 point gradients in EVERY theme and not 60+ for a big chunk of a reward? Why not release complete 100% premade lists that are larger than 75 points? Why not change the number of control points needed to win as a bonus? Why not change the time on the clock as a bonus (or punishment)? God it's all just "HEY BRO YOU BROUGHT 20 POINTS OF THAT THING, HERE'S A SOLO" in every fucking theme.

>>53557998
I agree on the fact that they're uncreative, but most of your solutions are tourney contextual.
I still prefer the Advantages/ability approach. Free solos are just a dumb idea. It tips the scales way too much.

>>53557992
actually, I own all the Convergence models. Anything that was a little warped, or wasn't sticking together properly, was assembled using proper methods to get everything to stick together. If it was warped so it wouldn't fit, I heated it and adjusted the plastic to fit. If the pieces just wouldn't stick together, I scratched the surfaces to allow more sticking surface area. If a piece was molded wrong, I contacted Privateer Press and got the pieces replaced. And mold lines, if you're not being a hamfist who runs things until it stabs through the models, are easy as shit to remove. Just be careful and keep trying. Honestly, I have a bigger problem with the metal pieces but that's because I don't know how to properly pin things and I'm always worried I'm gonna ruin things if I try.

The Hydra is unforgivable, I've been complaining about that since it came out. And if PP is so small that them making a video took out their rules/R&D department resources, the fact that they've gotten as large as they have is a miracle.

And I agree that they should refocus before they branch anymore, I want to see a larger base for this game before they start on another.

>>53557676
>queue the guy
What's he waiting for?

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>>53557882
Check these out: https://imgur.com/gallery/BroXX
Also there was that cool Metroid colour scheme a few threads back, and even further back there was another video game style scheme with Elara2 that I can't seem to track down again.

>>53558115
I usually dislike the ret aesthetic, but this looks sick.

>>53558100
mostly confirmation bias, I'd assume. My own community has been weird lately, we had a huge swell in people and we have more than 50 unique players, but everyone's buying houses or moving around for work or buying into Guildball as another game to play so there's very few people who come out week to week.

I constantly find myself worrying that the game is dying, but then I remind myself that just because I'm not seeing everyone around all the time doesn't mean they're not there.

>>53557802
>There's a bizarre euphoria derived from soundly winning because your wardudes are "special" [read: broken] and the other guy's dudes aren't.

Yup. PP did an uphill battle by deciding that they want to actually try to balance the game. I got back into the game because I respected that much more than Key Jingling in front of retards.

Fundamentally as crappy actions PP did, they are MOVING in better directions. A Company that Communicates (Even Shittily) tries to balance (Even Slowly), and tries to make everybody happy (Even if that's impossible) is way better then the silent assholes that just throw out a slightly bigger figurine and watch their fanbase cream their pants and dismiss all complaints.

Of course, that's why I think MKII attracted so much GW fanboys. The constant allure of new broken toys, and just dump the old ones in the trash is pretty much GWs matter of fact.

Now that PP is trying for the "Actually Balance" the game aspect, they are mad as hell.

>>53558069
>Free Solos

I think the reason for it is otherwise the theme force advantage has to stack on TOP of the Free Solo.

Like Lets Take WGI. Imagine if on TOP of The Benefits that Joe Grants, you give them relentless charge or something.

Twould be rediculous! So instead the theme grants Joe for Free.

>>53558074

I own Convergence. You're full of shit, it wasn't just a little warping.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Warmachine/comments/3z85ca/so_about_those_convergence_bb_molds/

and it's not just me. I can't believe you are saying those mold lines were easy to remove, they run down the middle of fucking gears and faces. I've been modeling a long time and they are some of the worst I've seen. I literally can't believe you would even try to float that bullshit.

>>53558100

I preempted him, he went back to his hole.

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>>53558115
Holy shit, that's a cool project.
Here's my Manticore from a couple months back again for reference. I had the Varia Suit in mind when I started, but I wasnt confident enough to try to blend the oranges necessary for that scheme.
Now I'm torn between sticking with the red and gold, trying to branch away from the gold and find a new secondary color, or just dunking half my army in degreaser and starting from scratch.

>>53558074
Ghool is a regular on the official forums and a pretty damn good painter. Watch his tips on pinning. If that doesn't help, then google up some more videos. It's a lot easier than it sounds. I pinned part of my Carnivean because the damn arm kept falling off.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwfL3sohcuBaxc4wAWOOdiA

>>53558360
Pictures?

>>53557705
>Fuck mk2, I'm glad it's dead and I hope it burns in hell.

This. Fuck all of you utter morons whining about how your favourite warcaster is no longer a win button.

If you think MkII was better balanced than MkIII is so far, you're a complete backbirth. There were entire factions that were legit unplayable in MkII. God help you if you went to a major tournament and you played something other than Cryx, Cygnar, Legion or Circle, because you were in for a ferocious uphill struggle against objectively better units and warnouns.

>>53557676
>Failed army builder
How is it failed? It works, it delivers rules and saves armies. It's more stable than version 1 by a mile and from what I've told online fights even work well now (I still use the cards in-game). The PDF reader built in is shit and it still crashes sometimes but it's I hardly unusable. You don't get to just declare it's failed because you don't like it, the vast majority of players I know use it exclusively for building and play. I could claim that it's fantastically successful based on that and have just as much backing up my statement as you do.

Those bitching that their community is dying are lazy or dumb. It's not hard to start up a regular game night if you have an FLGS nearby.
Heck, I'll say it, even Facebook groups and events make it easier to get players together for matches.

>>53557018
No people were happy with Mkii because it was a vast improvement over mki.

Mkiii wasn't.

Mkii fell apart as the game grew because it started adding new elements that got complex.

Mkiii came out broken and everything wrong with it were problems that existed before or shouldn't have been a problem in the first place.

Then PP's PR just shat itself

Been working on this list, I know it's a garbage caster but nonetheless still want to run it. Thoughts?

75points [ Master Ascetic Naaresh ] WC:1 WB:6 U:2 S:2<br><br><B>Master Ascetic Naaresh(*32points)</B><br>* Bronzeback Titan(18points)<br>* Titan Sentry(15points)<br>* Titan Sentry(15points)<br>* Titan Gladiator(15points)<br>* Archidon(10points)<br>* Basilisk Krea(7points)<br><B>Nihilators(15points)</B>(10models)<br><B>Paingiver Beast Handlers(7points)</B>(6models)<br><B>Mortitheurge Willbreaker(4points)</B><br><B>Swamp Gobber Chef(1points)</B>

>>53558584
Pretty much this. Mk II wasn't perfectly balanced and it certainly had it's issues. They got a fuck ton worse as time went one, with all sorts of new shit and errata that wasn't quite enough.

Now I'm a bit hopeful, but I'll admit that Mk III isn't looking the best right now and PR has gone to hell. I wonder how much of it is due to people being fired/quitting.

>>53558656
Take a picture and post a picture mate. Or at least format your shit so it's legible.

>>53558656
https://conflictchamber.com/

>>53558419

Go to google.com
Type in Convergence Mold Lines
start picking websites

Or type Privateer press plastic mold lines
Start picking websites

>>53558584
>Mkiii wasn't.

Alright, whats your objective measure of the game as it is now. What Already makes MKIII better is that it adapts fast.

Now, outside of that: What is your objective measure.

And not just "Fuck theme forces man!!!!!!!". An in depth, calm, and collected critique, and an explanation of why its WORSE then MKII.

I find it many magnitudes better. PP bit the bullet and removed the enticing broken options (Iron Flesh, Banes, exetera). Even the most broken options of Today (Stormlances) pale in comparison to the dominance that MKII broken options did.

And even with the current broken options, PP IS responding faster (Nuking Mad Dogs as much as it was a bitch to me since I own 3 of that chasis, I'm fine with it being nerfed until they can figure out a better way). I find that in many measures an improvement.

Now thats my argument. Give me yours in a calm collected fashion.

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>>53558528

Someone is actually defending Warroom.

There are nothing but fanboys here.

Right now, I can go and build an entire infinity army on any device I own, in a sleek easy to use interface with all of my rules...for fucking free.

Jesus Christ anon, pic related.

>>53558752
where? I know CC can get you a list built, but where is your sleek interface for rules?

>>53558528
Jesus Christ, even die hard PP fans fucking hate War Room. People use it because PP have basically forced them to. Especially now that they're no long ler putting cards into blister/boxes and they haven't uploaded all their card onto their printable database thing.

>>53558752

I'd say this illustrates something of one of PP's current problems- no matter how much they do right now, they're in a context that has been going on for a long time. So a lot of their current activities to address long-standing problems can amount to spinning wheels in mud with people.

Current Warroom is worth defending, anon. Warroom bashing is groupthink based on impressions taking a long time to change, and 2-hour hotspot multi-player matches sucking balls, (which is true for everything).

>>53558841
Planned for future release actually.

>>53558752
>>53558848
I'm hardly a War Room fanboy, I said in my post that I don't like using it during games. But if it runs on my shitty 100$ Android phone from two years ago it should run on just about anything. If 8 bucks to get your faction deck is too much then I'm sorry I guess? The core rules are free online anyway and they're (slowly for some reason) putting the cards up online.

Again, you can rant and rave about how it's shit but until you actually explain why you think it's shit all you're doing is making noise.

>>53558709
Of the pictures I could find, two were cases where the mold wasn't lined up very well. Which is hard to deal with, but not the end of the world. This is also a case where you could get replacement parts from PP. The other two weren't impossible to deal with either. Even the worst of the two wouldn't be all that difficult to deal with. Bit of trimming and a coat of paint later, you'd never know they were there. Honestly the resin is a fuck ton easier to remove mold lines from.

Have you tried sanding? If you're worried about toxic particles, you can do it somewhere well ventilated with a mask on.

>>53558848
I can attest to this. I was pretty pissed when PP killed Bodger so they could make their own app. Was even more pissed when you had to buy the fucking cards for Warroom 2, even if you'd bought them previously for Warroom 1. I'm just waiting for Gyrmkin to release and you have to buy their shit separate, even if you already got the ultimate bundle or w/e the hell it's called.

I will admit that Warroom 2 does work better than 1. Though I still don't like their setup for displaying collections.

>>53557014
>Publicly playtesting an entirely new faction
>Frankly a terrible decision.
Do you have anything to back that up or are you just bitching?

>>53558848
Yeah, I was wondering about that... the database makes no sense, offering sporadic unit cards. I mean, they could at least do this in an order that makes sense, like all warcasters, warjacks, then units, solos etc. Or have battlebox models done first. Why make the feature available on the site if it's incomplete?

>>53558987
objectively there is nothing better than having the base you are trying to make buy your product test the product and tell you overall exactly what they like the most out of what you will offer them. I don't understand how people could think that playtesting a new faction could be a bad thing, it's literally getting the community to show you what they like the best so you can directly market it to them as what they want.

>>53559022
We've just hit the point where there's people who are never going to be anything but angry about whatever happens next. Everyone would be happier of those people just moved on but instead they've decided they'd rather sit around shitting up threads and driving away potential new players.

PP isn't perfect, nor are they completely incompetent, or evil, or whatever people want to say they are. As always the truth is somewhere in the middle.

>>53558987
The poor decision was making a new faction at all. Nobody wanted it, the game didn't need it, there's literally zero reason to actually create a new faction. So instead of tending to their ailing game, they're busy doing something that doesn't need doing.

>>53558898
Warroom is shit.

It's pretty usable now, but it's still shit.

It's a gigantic memory hog for something that's a glorified slideshow, it drains battery like there's no tomorrow, and has an inexcusable loadup time for something that falls out of memory so much on a mobile device because it hogs so much of it.

It's less shit than it has been in the past, and it's pretty usable when it's not falling out of memory and having to be reloaded all the fucking time, but it's still a shit app written by shit programmers who would be shitcanned by any development house worth shit.

It's not worth defending. It's a travesty it took this long to get to mildly usable, and it's still shit piled on shit.

>>53559361
New stuff brings in new customers Anon. Can't say how many, but it will bring in some.

>>53559134

In between all the salt, hate and sourness directed at PP for all the reasons, underrated post.

Local community's dropping a bit, I needed a bit of positive.

Then again, why am I on 4chan?

>>53559485
>New stuff brings in new customers
I think this is a bad misconception. Good games bring in new customers.

>>53537076

It's very good. Errants are a bit pants but the caster, jacks, support Andrew knights exemplar are all great, and even Errants work well under Vindictus. Get yourself some Vengers and you have a really competitive Exemplar Interdiction list.

>>53559449

If they told me that they had a High Command game already coded up in there, just waiting to be unlocked as a menu option, I'd believe them.

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Finiiiiiished :3c

>>53559671
>>53559134
Based and based

I wonder how much the end of Press Gagners also contributed to loss of interest in the game. I've heard of stories going both ways. Awesome guys setting up events constantly and asswipes doing it for the free stuff while being That Guy at their FLGS. We had a cool guy who moved so there were no PG close to where I lived when they cut it out, I'm curious to hear what others have experienced.

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>>53559819

>>53559819
Awesome paint job, now finish basing it before you call that finished.

>>53559874
How about fuck off cunt.

>>53559134
Yup. Im gonna print out this post on a gold plate and dip it in guacamole.

>>53559895
what's the matter? are you somehow too poor for flock?

So, Trencher CID. Who else is hyped to see what the theme books end up looking like? I'm still cautious of the new release direction; I agree that they can't really continue to just release more and more models without stepping on each other's toes and I like the idea of really deep dives into sub-factions, but I'm wary of what it will end up doing to listbuilding.

Still though, I can't help but be excited about the idea of being able to just field a bunch of trenchers. The hobby opportunities of making a whole force of the likes of Trenchers or Man o Wars and not get pooped on in play is pretty cool and I'm interested to see what kind of fluff they put in the books.

Really not sure about structures though. Those could end up being really skewy if they aren't balanced well, hopefully CID keeps them in line.

>>53559738
Errants are not bad.

Their only problem is Idrians do their job better than they do, but with Exemplar Interdiction being a thing, they're a solid choice in theme.

>>53559914
Why? You get the same kind of posters in every thread. Those pseudo-apologists/philosophisers who think it's as simple as people just wanting to be angry. PP aren't addressing everyone's valid complaints so it's impossible to determine that people are being angry for the sake of being angry. And yet there they are, these same posts in every thread.

>>53560024
I'm not on the CID forums and don't follow it too closely, but I'd be psyched to see what the trencher theme list has to offer. I'm hoping to see defenders and cyclones digging in... and an update to the master gunner that makes him useful.

>>53560024
I dont like the idea of "trencher" mechanics and longgunners, they seem like they'll just be strictly better versions of models people already have, invalidating and alienating existing players. I'm looking forward to seeing Cygnar in the CID though, just so Cygnar players can get a word in edgewise regarding the state of the faction, hopefully away from the masses of non Cygnar players whining about how op they think Cygnar is. Model wise, I'd like to see some kind of jumpjet trencher team or a medium based squad of Ogrun or Trollkin trenchers, maybe with partisan for mercenary and trollbloods respectively or something.

>>53560024
>Really not sure about structures though. Those could end up being really skewy if they aren't balanced well, hopefully CID keeps them in line.

Again I like the idea of lively terrain. I say this is a clear visual element that Warmachine lacks and thats a lack of "What are we even fighting for"

A Base or something like it goes a long way towards adding context "Oh yeah a Cygnar Base, we are fighting to hold the line, or break through it"

I don't think it will be that hard. The Dwarven Battle Engine is already a great example of a "Structure" just with some minor mobility in the scheme of things. Just Bring the price down a bit, and there we go: Structure.

>>53560110
all of my complaints are valid to me, that doesn't make them legitimately valid. I dislike that CoC hasn't gotten any releases since the Conflux, and I complain about it. But that doesn't mean I'm right, CoC is a limited release faction and I knew that getting in.

>>53560110
>Why?

Because I try to engage angry people but they seem to demand everything at once and don't make logical arguments towards MKII at all.

I feel they are working towards addressing complaints. So you said "They don't" I said "They do" and thats all this "Debate" could ever be because it's a generally sourceless contextless demand for whatever.

There are valid complaints, but not really laid out in a logical fashion and not really thinking of realistic ways of solving them at all. Sans just calling PP evil or shit.

Conglaturations. You called PP Shit. Awesome. None of the things you wanted got better.

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How does my list look? It's the other half of Storm Division.

>>53560161

The game has been helped a lot by Warcasters and Warlocks being important enough that killing them is an actual strategic objective for a nation states, or forcing one to withdraw or use themselves up for the day is an important tactical objective that could decide any given battle you happen to be fighting.

So I don't really *need* this sort of thing, but I'm for seeing how it pans out.

>Ossrum is working for the Swans now

Nigga what?

>>53560024
I think it's pretty cool because honestly it's the only way you can really expand a game as mature as Warmachine.

I've been playing a lot of Cygnar lately and so far been happy with list building options (with the caveat that I don't care about having all (or even most) casters or units viable, but having several viable archetypes is important*), and seeing what's happened with CID so far, I'm hopeful what comes out of it will be good enough to be playable but not overpowered.


* - What I'd consider the general viable archetypes are Haley3 out of theme, standard-issue Storm Division, standard-issue Heavy Metal, Caine3 Heavy Metal, and Stryker1 Heavy Metal, and I'm selling some combinations short. But still, there are enough interesting ways to build Cygnar I'm happy with it, and hoping we get a couple of casters that work in the Trencher theme to add new archetypes.

Just played the new Exemplar list with Amon. Without Exemplars but Rhoven.
No fucks given.

>>53560446
Ossrum always worked for Cygnar. He's a Highborn Covenant caster.

>>53560459
Yeah, I haven't done this yet but it seems solid. Amon likes the benefits and doesn't get a ton of free stuff out of Creator's Might (my standard list gets 9 free points, and at that point it's a serious decision as to whether the upgrade in theme benefits is worth the loss of free points).

>>53560156
>I dont like the idea of "trencher" mechanics and longgunners, they seem like they'll just be strictly better versions of models people already have, invalidating and alienating existing players

I think that's what they're trying to avoid by (theoretically) making them different or better in certain contexts but not objectively better? Or by making it so maybe one is objectively better but if you wanna play this great theme force you gotta deal with it/the theme benefits make up for it. Like if they're more expensive but the combo of Tough and Rise from the theme makes it worth it.

I'd like to think the new Shyeel Arcanists Ret just got are what they're going for. They aren't objectively better, you lose out on Concentrated Power and the ability to spread out in exchange for better range and a little nuke. Plus their repair is a lower cap but a higher average. Granted at the moment the normal Arcanists are allowed in the Shyeel theme force so I'm not sure how well the parallel holds up.

>>53560598
Maybe they lose dual shot and just have long range guns with dig in and tough. Makes trenchers the better speed bump with assault and smoke while long gunners still dish out twice the hurt but don't take twice the pounding.

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>>53557705
Working on my Runebearer, got the flesh, leather pads, and stones all done. Now working on the robe.

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>>53560852
and a back shot

>>53560852
Looks good Anon. The leather came out very smooth.

>>53560965
Thanks, it's actually really easy
>Bootstrap leather basecoat
>Shade with Agrax Earthshade
>Highlight raised areas with Idrian Flesh

>>53560784
I wouldn't worry about it.

Think WGI, and WGRC.

Whilst the RC are often "Take em or GTFO" the Infantry Occupy a whole other niche.

They also said that the Trencher Longgunners will have a whole other attachment.

Again, I expect them to want people to buy ALL their stuff. The less redundant stuff they have, the more confidence retailers have in purchasing products.

>>53559485
New stuff will bring in new customers but good rules will keep them around. Better to have the old crowd rounding out their collections because the rules make everything in faction viable. Then you'll have a stable gaming group that can introduce new players, all without "OMG! LOOK AT OUR AWESOME NEW FACTION GUYS!!".

>>53559823
I moved away and then by the time I moved back, the LGS had closed down and the closest was a hour away. This was immediately after Mk III dropped.

Then I moved again and now that I have a LGS, I'm going to try to revive the scene. That's why my armies are currently sitting in a vat of acetone.

>>53558980
>>53558952

You're both fucking idiots.

I'm sorry I normally will debate a bit with people but when I see people defending Convergence Plastic Kits and talking up Warroom, either they're idiots or just so vested in the company they lack any clarity.

>>53560286

>Typical spam theme list
>No one care

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>>53559449

>We've reached a point where people are defending how PP has handled their electronic IP
>we are at peak fanboi

>>53560555
I got:
-Amon (duh)
-2 Dervishes
- Crusader
-2 Reckoner
-Devout
-Castigator
-2 small Choir
-2 Vasall Mechs.
-2 Vasall of Menoth
-Visgoth Roven and Honourguard
-2Wracks

I Lost the game as we played with old pre-Cid Steamroller but if it was attrition, the Thagrosh Beast heavy list would have lost hard.
In the End only his caster was still going.

>>53561342
See, this is the problem. No one here has claimed that War Room is perfect or couldn't be better but you guys are so entrenched in your idea that everything is terrible that you're incapable of just having a discussion about it without resorting to memes.

>>53561253
>complains about warroom
>notes #2 isn't as shitty as #1
>>YOU'RE DEFENDING WARROOM!
>>REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!

>Examines evidence that kits were shit
>thinks it's fixable with a hobby knife and paint
>>YOU'RE DEFENDING THE CoC KITS!!!
>>REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!

One of use is an idiot anon and it's not me.

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>>53561293
>FA:2
>spam list
>pic related

>>53561512
Firefly
Firefly
Firefly

Storm X
Storm X
Storm Y
Storm Y
Storm Z
Storm Z

Man theme lists really bring out the creativity.

Actually PP should save us all the trouble and just build lists, call them Themes and cut to the chase

>>53559823
The pending multiple lawsuits against WoTC from the MTG Judges combined with California labor law and federal addenda forced PP's hand in all likelihood with the alternative being actually having to pay PGs as employees. Both metas I've been in have had a strong community to drive the game with and now without PGs so things haven't changed much for me.

>>53561441
It's us not use Anon.

You are defending CoC plastic kits and Warroom . I don't need to make an argument for how autistic you are, you've done a better job than I ever could.

>>53561759
>You are defending CoC plastic kits and Warroom . I don't need to make an argument for how autistic you are, you've done a better job than I ever could.

Can we not? Like I know Chivalry is dead and all but can we just be if not respectful, but CLEAR?

Do you want to convince other people or do you want to whine a bunch whilst fellating yourself?

>>53561855
>That wasn't respectful

>>53561903
>Greentext

>>53561759
>nit picks spelling errors
>but the other guy is autistic
>calls the other guy autistic to hide the fact he's wrong

>>53561936
>Quotes the joke not realizing he missed it
>Becomes the joke

>>53561759
What's wrong with the CoC plastic kits?

>>53562109
Supposedly terrible mold lines. Worst two I found were a case where the mold didn't line up right. Which is a "shit happens" situation. Rest is rumor with no pictures or nothing serious.

I think I can finally put a finger on what I hate the most about mk3. Mk2 was fun, because everything was overpowered in its own respect. Everything had a gimmick it was good one and if made use of could win you a game. In mk3 80% of shit is straight up weak while the 20% is powerful but in a non-fun way (i.e. big numbers).

>>53560315
True but it also opens up the option for play without casters(something that in theory could be quite fun). Of course I'd love to see just a Generic 'journeyman caster' for each of the factions as that'd be kinda neat though given in the in universe rarity I doubt we'll be so lucky.

>>53561170
I fucking love the WGRC this edition, they're goddamn amazing for their points as far as Im concerned, though sadly the infantry have suffered a little for it I think.

>>53562255
>I think I can finally put a finger on what I hate the most about mk3. Mk2 was fun, because everything was overpowered in its own respect. Everything had a gimmick it was good one and if made use of could win you a game. In mk3 80% of shit is straight up weak while the 20% is powerful but in a non-fun way (i.e. big numbers).

Well I believe your flat out wrong and Il reference:
>>53557018
>>53557802


But in specific Il mention WGI, and Banes.

Banes Hit Hard, had some of the highest Melee Threat Ranges, Also hit accurately, and had stealth.
WGI had Defense 17, Hit hard, hit more accurate and where cheap.

The truth is you LIKED the above. Even if it meant that 90% of all other units where sidelined, as long as you got to squash some newbie with some combo they didn't notice, you had fun.

Balance and good design? Fuck that shit.

Give me overpowered shiny toys forever!

>>53558751
I honestly don't know the current meta game. I haven't played since the start of grymkin CID, but I will say that mkiii was still worse than mkii given the nature of its flaws and handling of said flaws.

The mkiii flaws are by in large, all on PP and they made mistakes that they should've known better.

Like the mad dog spam. Spamming the cheapest model with caster most optimized for running spam should've been the first thing tested.

The laser guided throw should've been tested as soon as it changed before needing a demonstration from skarath.

Not to mention that they messed with two perfectly adequate caster in Madraks. One became a skornegy mess and other needed a nerf just because they just felt like making a feat change.

This isn't some daisy chain of combos breaking anything, it's basic level "I changed it, let's see how good/bad it is"

Also if the argument is that it's good now, then it's already too late. New players are expected so much to get into the game. Buy the battle box, if you want up to date info get warroom, but warroom updates aren't in line with book releases or inaccurate so buy the book. The book doesn't contain every part of the faction, mkii stuff has decks, but new ones you print your own, new releases are on separate forum that will change on week to week.

It's a complete mess.

>>53562698
I hated banes though. They were agreeably op in a non-fun way and needed to get axed. I didn't play wgi but loved seeing it in action because stacking synergies pleases my autism and is the best part of listbuilding. What I meant was that in the transition a lot of shenanigans and tactical depth was lost, so no there is fewer but more strict standards by which you judge models. Previously it was *wow these models are bonkers because they can pull x off*. Now it's *all the other models suck because this one does the only thing that can be done now the best*.

>>53563086
But mkiis where mot PPs mistakes because......?

So the fact that Mad Dogs ran amock but where nerfed is a problem.

But that Banes ran amock in mkii (as well as other broken options) and jacks numbered in the 0-1 THE WHOLE EDITION, isnt.

And you dont even play anymore. And you dont think the game could be saved, nor do you care about it getting better.

Your literally doomsaying.

>>53563239
So you admit that you are NOT interested in a balanced tactical experience and just interested in raw numeretical domination?

>>53563353
Stop the jack meme. Most armies were running two heavies. There were jack/beast spam lists as well.

To the "free points kill the game" whiners: The stock Winter Guard Kommand list consists of 4 heavies and 12 Rocketeers, granting three free weapon crews.

I'm sorry but if your gun-line drop is unable to handle three additional guns, you need to rethink your bad list from the beginning.

Is it impossible for a theme to be overpowered? Of course not, there are plenty of things that could be fixed and adressed. But instead of pointing at the top performing lists based on themes, ask yourself: Are the free models really that important or is it the theme benefits that might be a problem?

>>53563379
What? How? No. Raw numerical domination is how mk3 feels and I hate it. I love when you are forced to make choices. Like whether you will manage a harder set up for a bigger reward. Or whether your tactic won't fold itself against x because it's either immune to you or you have no answer to them. I also liked it when choices between models were harder because one offered better stats but the other was capable of some unique tricks. Now there is always a clearly superior choice.

>>53563353
Because mkii was part of community test at start.

There's a difference in a problem where the test wasn't rigorous enough vs not being tested at all.

That's right, only way to save it is to start from scratch again, put a gag order on Soles and Will and actually pay attention to what's going on.they don't have to listen to everyone but they should pay attention to what and why things are being said.

>>53563466
>I also liked it when choices between models were harder because one offered better stats but the other was capable of some unique tricks. Now there is always a clearly superior choice.

No, mk2 was literally always take the best unit because it's better than the bad units in every situation.

>>53563418
Actually 3 free knockdown source is not insignificant.

You need solid ground or a huge base which also have armor to not die.

>>53563491
Look at fenns vs kriel warriors. Kriel warriors were a cheap, good tarpit that required you to invest in support models and warlock spells to accomplish anything other than stubbornly boggling down the opponent. Fenns were a more self sufficient (but still liked some support) more expensive choice that would be wasted as a tarpit but was good on the offense. Now fenns are just strictly better than kriel warriors. Changes like this are everywhere in mk3.

>>53563508
Which Witch Coven or other anti-gunlines still don't care about. If your opponent can't use the gunline, it doesn't matter it there are two guns or 20.

The Winter Guard Vlad1 Rocketeer list would be in the meta without a theme force and the free guns are not responsible.

>>53563596
>the one faction that both had to be nerfed in mk2 and has balance issues in mk3 isn't perfectly balanced.

Holy shit anon, I think you might be onto something.

>>53563682
MMM and EE weren't nerfed because they were too good. They were nerfed because they were too popular. And they were too popular because alongside RoW they were the only lists trolls could put that were on par with other factions. And I am not criticising them for being unbalanced now, I am just highlighting an example of changes that are common in mk3, that is two models competing for a spot because they serve different functions becoming homogenised and in turn one of them becoming a strictly better choice.

>>53555691
Reivers change Burst Fire to Volume Fire.
That's fucking it, because screw you Hexeris1 is my anti-armor list.

>>53563751
... Which is completely false for almost all factions. In mk2, everyone had one or two god-tier units and the rest was trash, while in mk3 we have 5/6 useful units, while the last one is awful.

Yes, we get it Cryxers and trolls, your factions aren't as good as they were before and maybe worse than other factions in mk3. Shut up and play or eat a dick and leave.

>>53563889
Dude I don't play trolls or cryx. I play minions, ret and coc. And I feel mk3 was generous for all of them. Some people complain about coc now but imho their new mechanic is absurdly good. But for vast majority of factions this is a real issue. In ret it's sentinels being strictly better than any other melee infantry they got etc.

>>53559361
>Creating a new faction
That doesn't explain why CID is a bad thing. You can not like Grymkin all you want, go nuts. Shriek artistically into the night if you want. That doesn't change the fact that CID is a good thing.

>Nobody wanted it
Sure, except the 2000+ people in the Grymkin group. Those people and their dollars don't count at all

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All done with my Runebearer. He's ready to throw rocks at people and make fury starved casters slightly less fury starved.

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>>53565566
and a back shot

>>53565566
>>53565586
https://youtu.be/Id6oS3L-D9A?t=1m24s
That looks really good Anon. He's ready to make your first spell cast each turn cost 1 less now.

Can, I just ask this. Who the fuck thought the Corrupter needed a special version of detonator?

>>53559983
No, it's just that people who insist everyone must put fake grass under a tiny plastic doll are faggots. The kind of person who feels that not painting models is shitting in everyone's face.
You put some matte glitter on your base, fucking good for you. You won the special olympics, but you still can't walk.

>>53566950
Geez dude who pissed in your cereal

>>53563751

dude plz dont endorse this revisionist nonsense shit about EE bc u srsly don't understand how fucking retarded it was as a list b4 it got nerfed and how god awful a spell Star Crossed was/is for the game in general, especially in conjunction w/ what effectively amounted to 26 free MK3 points in lesser troll warbeasts who all AD'd and had better animi/output comparable 2 their variants 2day (with Slags getting 2 shots per beast, Storms able to boost Lightning Generator electro-leaps, etc)

i think what they did 2 troll lights in transitioning 2 MK3 was sacrilege 2 (barring the Slag who got sidegraded and went down a point which is kool) but EE was fucking ridiculous in answering nearly every question for every faction barring Menoth who couldn't reliably stage an answer against most of the metagolems (Haley2, Brad even post-nerf, eKrueger, Croak Raiders w/ nearly anyone in any faction, Lylyth2/Vayl1 ADR, etc) and didnt succeed in events relative to EE's ascendancy

Meat Mountain was gay 2 but desu i almost want all 8 box infantry back as a stopgap against jack spam lists lol although iunno if they'd win vs. the likes of Jaws Karchev or nu-Amon given the alterations 2 focus allocation and Power Up's inclusion

>>53567026
What the FUCK

>>53566990
This failed abortion, right here.
>>53559874

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>>53567026
What the fuck did you just fucking say about me, you little bitch? I’ll have you know I graduated top of my class in the Navy Seals, and I’ve been involved in numerous secret raids on Al-Quaeda, and I have over 300 confirmed kills. I am trained in gorilla warfare and I’m the top sniper in the entire US armed forces. You are nothing to me but just another target. I will wipe you the fuck out with precision the likes of which has never been seen before on this Earth, mark my fucking words. You think you can get away with saying that shit to me over the Internet? Think again, fucker. As we speak I am contacting my secret network of spies across the USA and your IP is being traced right now so you better prepare for the storm, maggot. The storm that wipes out the pathetic little thing you call your life. You’re fucking dead, kid. I can be anywhere, anytime, and I can kill you in over seven hundred ways, and that’s just with my bare hands. Not only am I extensively trained in unarmed combat, but I have access to the entire arsenal of the United States Marine Corps and I will use it to its full extent to wipe your miserable ass off the face of the continent, you little shit. If only you could have known what unholy retribution your little “clever” comment was about to bring down upon you, maybe you would have held your fucking tongue. But you couldn’t, you didn’t, and now you’re paying the price, you goddamn idiot. I will shit fury all over you and you will drown in it. You’re fucking dead, kiddo.

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>>53566950
I think you need to take a break dude

>>53567092
I don't know why you're getting so mad about this, basing is like the easiest part of modeling. Old brush, PVA glue, put glue onto base and dip into flock/gravel/what have you. Bam, easy.

>>53567137
Plus with Skorne you could just sand base everything.

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What would be a good amount for PP to stew on this before desperately needing mkiv?

They obviously need a reset button, but they can't do it now.

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>the Stone Scribe Elder has 5 fingers on one of his hands instead of the trollblood 4
What the fuck
How old is this sculpt and why is this unfixed

>>53567738
Hey, Doomy 2 or 3, I forget, has 5 toes.

>>53567738
maybe one is a whelp he's shedding

>>53567793
Trollkin don't shed whelps.
...for some reason. They're the only type of troll that don't produce whelps.

>>53561702
>Actually PP should save us all the trouble and just build lists, call them Themes and cut to the chase
Well that's where we're headed.

>>53563418
>Is it impossible for a theme to be overpowered? Of course not,
I was going to argue your poiint but I just have nothing but disdain for people who write licke that. Go fuck yourself.

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Who would you say the best battlebox casters are?
I think Ragnor and Tanith are both pretty damn good.

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>>53568135
Beth is pretty good because she gives out Pathfinder, which is really rare in Cygnar, and can do double Arcane Shield. A really solid pick in Storm Division.

>>53560538
No, I mean he is in the Cygnar army chart in the command book. Does this mean he will become a partisan?

>>53568135
Ragnor, Tanith, Maddox (in Storm Division primarily), and Helynna are my top picks for the best Battlebox casters out of Mk3.

>>53565566
>>53565586
Nice work, Trollanon. The leather looks really cool.

>>53568135
->
>>53568892
This, pretty much. I would order them Ragnor > Helynna > Beth > Tanith

>>53568892
>>53569627
I really need to give Helynna a try outside of BB games.

The two times I've used her at 75 points I was up against Siege and then Haley2, and my entire front line got shot off the table turn two both matches.

>>53570315
>got shot off the table
How? You have Deceleration and a +ARM feat.

>>53570453
Siege:
>Feat + High Explosive blasts
>possible mixing in of Mk2 rules (was still learning)

Haley2:
>Storm Lance brigade to lock out infantry advance
>Telekinesis to flip my heavies around and out of cover
>Stormwall to kill whatever
>Feat to fuck the surviving half of my list

I've never been particularly successful at dealing with gunlines when my opponent can roll well.

>>53570599
Well it probably depends a lot on your list, but a jack-heavy list with Decel should generally not die to a Cygnar gunline outside of extreme cases like Nemo3.

You know, if you try breaking out of a theme list, you realize that much of the benefits are primarily psychological.

I got that when I played a Balanced "MOW+Iron Fangs+WGRC+Conquest" Irusk 1 List at a bunch of other lists.

Theme forces bottleneck people. Much of it is the allure of the free points, but if you got a regular combo, don't be afraid to break away.

>>53571083
This. I am constantly arguing with the community that Sorscha's 11 is a better list than Winter Guard Kommand Sorscha.

>>53558115
VERY impressive. Nice inspiraltion and good reaslisation. First time in 10 years I see a Ret jeack I can get behind.

Nice job, Anon ! I'd like moar of it!

>tfw your favourite chinaman has finally got legion of everblight for sale

>>53571795
This is not GW though. If you like the product, buy it.

>>53572537
I am buying it.

Just cheaper.

>>53571795

Noice. Just remind me, who's my favorite one among them all?

>>53572809
You know Ze one.

>>53572817
Thanks Anon, I wasnt sure. :)

>>53572537
It's better quality than PP makes. I buy from Chinaman all the time, give no shits.

>>53573911
>It's better quality than PP makes
Well now I'm interested. Is it one of the old chinamen that used to do only warhammer?

Can Mobius use his battle plans on himself? He is a Bloat thrall afterall.

>>53574145
Yes, because:
>He is a Bloat thrall afterall.

>>53571300
ah, it's not my work anon, I just saw it on Leddit and wanted to share with you fine folks. There's a gallery link in my post and more on what's-his-face's imgur profile.

>>53570599
Honestly the strategy for the list depends on what you're facing. Heavier gunlines like Sloan or Ossyan (particularly Sloan) usually mandate Casting Decel and Rhythm of War then Feating turn 1 and either running up the board for good positioning with most things or blocking LOS to Helynna with a heavy or two. My list uses Discordia for bubble-wrapping a unit of Sentinels and/or whatever you need to not have shot off the table for +4 ARM vs shooting every turn for that section of the table and +7 ARM on feat turn/ once again for the Sentinels when they minifeat. Sitting at ARM values north of 23 blunts most ranged plans. Colossals aren't Helynna's cup of tea across the board since her gun can't draw them in but if you brought Lanyssa you can get Manticores charging 12" at PS 20 with three follow up attacks. Apply Hand of Destruction and it should be pretty banged up. Killing Thorn is probably your first priority vs any Haley list which can do wonders for your survivability. It's a hard matchup but not unwinnable.

>>53560286
There's the obvious: the list is illegal becausr Jr doesn't have a jack.

The not so obvious: you don't really have anything to act as a first wave. Also, unless your meta is full of sungle wound troopers, you have way too many points dedicated to anti-infantry tech.

On the off chance any German players are about, does anyone play Warmachine in or around Paderborn?

Rolled 5 (1d6)

Tough check!

>>53580221
Alive game confirmed

>>53580242
Knocked down, but not boxed.

>>53576968
I freely admit to having only taken Discordia and a Manticore in that Haley match. I'm guessing more heavies would fit into Helynna's game plan, given than she can Rhythm them around and secure them against shooting?

>>53571083
This. My Venethrax "all the character's" list is terrifying.
>Start with Deathjack throwing out Mortality in an infantry unit
>Erebus does his Pacman thing.
>Malice controls enemy jacks and turns them around for scavenger charges
>Nightmare just causes Havoc with Prey and Mortality

>>53541514
#mat6beasts

>>53557705
Finally decided to cut Protectorate out of my rotation so I can focus on painting and playing factions I do actually play.

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Farewell old Ragnor, may your paint job come off nice and smooth.
Might as well give one of my most played casters a better paintjob.

>>53581821
I'm sure there's more poorly painted Trolls than any other faction.

>>53581975
Skintone is hard

File: IMAG0016.jpg (2MB, 2368x4224px) Image search: [Google]

2MB, 2368x4224px

>>53581995
The best way I've found of doing my Skorne flesh is use a base colour, Jack Bone in my case, wash it quite heavily, I'm talking 6+ layers here (I use a brown wash), then use the basecoat colour again but with very watered down paint. I'm lazy and just use a wet brush. This way you can build up layers of lighter paint on the areas you want to be lighter. Here's my Rasheth as an example of what I mean. I dunno how well this translates over to Trolls though since a lot of the time I see their skin being a dark-ish blue. Light trolls are cool though.

File: IMG_2166.jpg (163KB, 557x1043px) Image search: [Google]

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I hate that this is the closest I've come to an "interesting" theme list for Ret. Maybe some day I'll grab a Helios and a pile of Griffons for Forges of War, but until then it's sniper time.

>>53582187
Oh no I'm perfectly fine with painting trolls now.
...I wasn't 6 months ago.

>>53583960
>>53583960

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