/CofD/ & /wodg/ Chronicles of Darkness and World of Darkness

>>53177557

>You can always throw evil koldun at them(this name always cracks me up)

Koldun? Why?

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Dark Ages V20 Companion? Anybody got it already?

Are mages weaker or stronger in old world of darkness? Are they usable in my masquerade? What about normal sorcerer?

>>53177587

> Are they usable in my masquerade?

Only if you cripple them significantly. Otherwise, they can overpower every kind of player character you throw at them.

Seriously, like the other guy said, stick to Thaumaturgy, Koldunic Sorcery... maybe even Setite and Assamite stuff, though I'm not familiar with those.

>>53177545
Right now I have total of 4 in my VtR game. Among those
>Affable and exaggerated Italian Bale Hound who always speaks in comical accent and waves his hands around. Always friendly to people. Also wants to skin one of pcs friends "alive" as a revenge for her sire killing his pack mates and preventing them from opening the wound in the middle of the city
>Poetry quoting Belial Brood therion who poses as Circle of the Crone patriarch and wants to use Birching the Blood God ritual to summon his masters

>>53177557
I still reckon true wizards would make better antagonists than mortal magicians and blood sorcerers.

Sure they're extremely difficult to tackle, but just look at all the many Conan stories of just that.
It doesn't necessarily convolute everything.

>>53177564
Kolduns are sort of potato "dumplings" around here

>>53177587
Mages aren't really that strong in combat. Just step on their heads.

>>53177587
They are weaker in OWoD but only marginally and that's because in general what kind of magic they do is limited by the kind of paradigm they have.

You can incorporate mages in your Masquerade game but they are quite terrifyingly powerful and make better use as a dramatic force rather than as antagonists. Using them as antagonists requires them to either be incredibly stupid regarding their own self preservation or veeery new mages.

Sorcerers are much easier to use because their magic is generally like thr disciplines in that it's a weaker more linear progression.

Vamps should for all intents and purposes try and avoid mages in the same way they do lupines.

>>53177638
Delete this comment before a magefag sees it.

Please, for the love of god.

>>53177624

>but just look at all the many Conan stories of just that.

Conan is not World of Darkness.

The settings are nothing alike. Its magic users are nothing alike. If you're not going to bother playing mages to their true potential, but you want to bring them in your game anyway, why the fuck are you playing WoD to begin with?

I say this as someone who's primarily a vampirefag, but also know my way around some of the other splats, including mage, which is just plain OP compared to the others.

>>53177646

want them in your non-mage game*

>>53177638
Low level mages aren't all that great in violence.

High level mages are going to steamroll anything standing in their path.

>>53177641
I still think he should just use Tremere or Tzimisce sorcerer if he wants to use that kind of opponent.

Also lupines are manageable for vamps(not saying they go down easy but it more depends on woofs and vamps in question). Mages are league of their own

>>53177646
I was more referring to the fact that Conan frequently faces sorcerers of such caliber that confronting them is a nigh-impossibility.

>>53177673

In case you missed it, what works in one setting wouldn't work in the other. Not to mention, Conan is the protagonist of the stories, of course he's going to win.

>>53177678

Doesn't it take a while for a mage to get a spell off though? I thought they were all about ritual and not fast casting.

>>53177624

You can use them as an antagonist in the sense that whatever they are at odds with the PCs about it doesn't require killing them. Like say they are using the PCs.

The only way to reliably kill a True Mage is to get the drop on him, preferably before he knows anything about you, preferably before he's even aware you exist. In those cases, they splatter like any mortal.

But if the magus has any clue that the PCs might turn against him, he's probably already created contingencies against them. He might even have hanging sorceries to alert him when their fucking mood changes towards the murderous in his direction.

Imagine if you had the power to control luck, all energies, manipulate matter or shapechange people, or bits of all of these. Any by that, I mean anything to do with these aspects of reality. And you could even potentially do it from miles away.

Oh you're a vampire? I just scryed you and found out where you sleep during the day. Now I'm gonna cast a ritual and make your house fall down exposing you to the sun. Or I'll use a spirit to go tell a pack of Garou where you live. Or I'll just make your whole room explode in fire while I'm five miles away sipping a martini.

So yeah, if a mage is going to be an antagonist, its better if he has a reason to not kill the PCs.

>>53177739

No, they can fast cast if they have to, it just has repercussions on them. It causes reality to smack them back a little. But if it means saving their skin they're fully willing to do it.

>>53177763
Plus aren't more experienced mages able to fast cast more powerful spells with less backlash anyway?

>>53177665
I agree, Tremere and Koldun are definitely the better angle to go (because crossing the games is never all that good an idea).

You are also very right about lupines, they're manageable but I was just saying Vamps in general avoid them because holy fuck werewolves are death machines that come in packs of 5+

>>53177755
>The only way to reliably kill a True Mage is to get the drop on him
>In those cases, they splatter like any mortal.
>he's probably already created contingencies against them

Competent mages are going to have contingencies up and running in-general. Getting the drop on them is far easier said than done.

>>53177775

Basically if they have to fast cast and if it has to be vulgar (against the physical laws of reality or what most being could chalk up to coincidence) then all mages take a minimum amount of Paradox for the spell. Older, more experienced mages are just better at it, so the spell will more reliably go off. But any mage can lower the difficulty of a roll by spending Quintessence, plus spend a Willpower point, pretty much assuring that whatever spell they need to go off, will.

>>53177786

Yeah, this is true too, but I didn't feel like going into it. Basically getting the drop on them is their only weakness, but even beginner mages can hang spells that allow them to have preternatural danger-sense (Entropy) or detect malicious thoughts (Mind).

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To the vampfags in the thread, have any of you played a character who was Blood Bonded?

I'm going to be playing a Gargoyle soon who is very much like pic related and I'm planning on being blood bound to the Tremere Regenta and I wanted to know some tips to rp-ing it.

>>53177755
>>53177786
>contingencies
Wards are extremely overpowered. Effectively hung spells around yourself (or places) at all times, ready to blow. No Time or Prime needed.

>>53177781
Also blood magic is ritualistc and is probably closer to what OP was looking at.

I'm cofdfag so don't know that much about owod but I had my players go against Lancea Sanctum once
>It's morning already. Let us run out into the streets and then move from cover to cover. Sun won't fuck us up as bad as him if he wants to chase.
>Bishop emerges from his haven and flings cross he was wearing into the sky. Stormclouds cover the sky and bloat out the sun while he whips out blood scourge.
>Coincidentally rumble of thunder sounds something like "Who wants the daddys belt?"

You guys are causing me to worry about a relevant crossover game coming up on Tuesday.

Two vampires (daeva nosferatu) one werewolf and one mage, either acanthus or moros.

Should I be worried?

>>53177999
Omg run. But seriously it depands on players and ST. You guys are doing any adjusting or what not?

>>53177999
Yes. Any game with a werewolf can quickly degrade into erp

>>53177999
>Should I be worried?

If that player picks Acanthus, all hope is lost.

>>53178020
No adjusting. Rules as written. I'm the ugly vampire. Could a moros un-ugly me?

>>53177999
Yes. Sounds like a clusterfuck.
Especially with an Acanthus who knows what he's doing.

>>53178085
>Rules as written

Prepare to get fucked up the ass.

>>53178085
Not really. From what I hear changing rules of the clan curse requires adept at least and it probably won't stick.Thou this is a question for someone more versed in mage

Also remember that you don't have to be ugly when you are nosferatu. You can for example give off aura of fear that will make everyone think you want to stab them in the eye with a fork.

>>53178085

I don't know about CofD but in OWoD there are a few things that mages can't do. Things like pull the moon down, or make the sun explode, or reverse gravity over the entire earth. Basically things that are so cemented in reality that the collective belief of all Sleepers make it basically impossible.

Aside from these, the other things they can't do: Remove a Malkavian's madness, erase a Nosferatu's ugliness, cure vampirism. Basically these are God-level curses that they can't break.

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>>53178127

>there are a few things that mages can't do
>Basically these are God-level curses that they can't break.

wrong

>>53178122
You can't remove template flaws short of arch mastery but you can suppress it's effects with magic.

For example you can't cure a Vampire from the effects of sunlight. But you can cast a Forces 2 spell that shields them from sunlight for the duration.

>>53178127
>Basically these are God-level curses that they can't break.
If we're talking OWoD then it only requires Prime 6 to mess with divine whatnot. It's Archmastery, but still doable.

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>>53177999

>Acanthus

>>53178181
That I'm aware of but how would you downplay effects of a curse that twists others perception of the nosferatu. Mind for both physical deformity and for spooky feeling he causes?

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>>53178187

>Archmastery

>>53178212
Mind is all you need. Or Prime, to see the truth of how not-scary he/she really is.

Unless the vampire is just THAT butt ugly.

>>53178222
Prime is really handy with truth.

>>53178222
Well there is a bloodline of nosferatu that looks like 250kg motherfuckers that got drowned and allowed to swell

There is also elder in Prague that turned into giant lizard for some reason

>>53178212
Mind would work for preventing the feeling of unease and to make people hallucinate a different appearance, Death could sculpt his features, Prime could force people to see his 'true' appearance, Forces can create a hologram masking his appearance, Life can make people see whatever you want or hide the vampire from the living, Time can summon their mortal form into the present, etc.

>>53178278
>Forces can create a hologram masking his appearance,

I always thought for some reason Prime would be the thing to make illusions but I know fuckall about mage

>>53178302
depends on system version.

in nwod 1e prime could cast illusions, 2e its forces sorta, though prime can make physical mana "illusions"

>>53178302

Prime is the Sphere that messes with the fundamental essence of the universe. The stuff that is basically Gnosis, or the power inside vampire Vitae. It's Quintessence.

You basically have to have Prime to make anything from nothing, rather than drawing it from a source. So for example creating fire with Force 3 Prime 2, or making a chair with Matter 3 Prime 2, or making a fully-fledged human being with a soul and working consciousness: Life 4, Mind 4, Spirit 4, Prime (2 I think?)

>>53178355
I'm kind of surprised you could create souls in Ascension.

>>53178355

Prime is also what allows Mages to make things do aggravated damage, because it breaks things down at the fundamental level. The Technocracy has a metal alloy they call Primium that does Agg to werewolves and vampires.

>>53178355
So Prime is sort of fundamental to spellcasting in mage?

>>53177832
We blood bonded each other with a Gangrel in a game. I don't know if it really counts, it was a pretty different situation.

>>53178355
You no longer need Prime to conjure anything as of 2e.

The metaphysics behind both the Spheres and the Arcana are quite different in some areas.

>>53177999
Dunno about New WoD, but why doesn't the werewolf kill the vampires on sight?

>>53178395
In Ascension, yes.

>>53178395
Only in Ascension. Mages tended to be more well-rounded back then.

Awakening is a more specialized system. It makes you feel unique.

>>53178409
because thats not a thing in nwod..

WW have no automatic (and retarded
) "kill on sight" response to vampires..

>>53178395

Only if you're making stuff Ex Nihilo. You can still easily manipulate any existent thing if you have the relevant Spheres.

>>53178411
>implying Paradigm doesn't make you unique
But I do get where you're coming from.

Most competent mages had proficiency in most of the Spheres, while in Awakening it's rather more selective with the Arcana.

So what's scarier in awakening a mage with a few arcana at high level or a mage with many arcana at mid level.

>>53178452
Depands but from what I hear it is better to master one or two and have your cabal mates cover the rest

>>53178452
Higher level as in Mastery? Masters don't fuck around.

>>53178452
I'd generally be more afraid of the Mage with a few at a higher level than some schmuck who discounts the potency of the more advanced practices over a larger number at a lower level.

That being said, it would also depend on what those are.
Space 2 is a game changer.

Is having sex with a vampire a bad idea?

>>53178682
Daeva
>only once
Ventrue
>probably shouldn't
Nosferatu
>basically rape
Gangrel
>too late, you're dead
Mekhet
>tee hee

>>53178711
>Ventrue
>>probably shouldn't
What do you mean?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lT3BbmGf9Ag

>>53178737
Ventrue sex is just using dominate to make you think you had the best sex in your life.

>>53178711
If you have sex with a Daeva more than once it effectively becomes a yandere.

Yandere vampires not being something you want.

>>53178801
>yandere vampires
>tsundere mages
When does it end?

vampires can't get boners

>>53178893
Vampires are bottoms

>>53179008
Werewolves are bottoms

>>53179110
Delete this before the werefags show up

>>53179233
NEVER

>best antagonist
Definitely a Tzimisce I built.
I didn't like the whole "mwahaha I'm an evil flesh monster" idea, I had some lesser Tzimisce do that, the younger ones, and even a few ones older than this one who just couldn't keep up with him.
Basically I hinted at his existence by having a harpy inform the coterie that there had been sightings of Sabbat in the city, they were told if they found anything out that were duty bound to inform the Prince.
Of course they find something out, a ghoul was trying to buy blood, no one knew who owned this ghoul, this made the vampire behind the local blood trade nervous, pulled some strings in the background and the coterie was told that a ghoul no one knew had been harassing the blood bank.
Being good little neonates and knowing a plot hook when it was dangled in front of them, the coterie decided to investigate.
Upon a group of actual vampires confronting the ghoul up and surrendered, informing them he was unarmed and not stupid, his master wouldn't punish him for not sacrificing his life.
This confused the coterie a little but they took the ghoul to the Prince, but first they tried to get information about his master out of him, I have his dialogue on his Lord, I prewrote it, and it just made the party nervous.
"Oh my Lord is a merciful one, but he's not stupid. I'm not blessed with the way his citadel moves or it's routes, I am simply pulled when needed."
After threats and intimidation didn't work, the Toreador attempted seduction, because of course he did.
"My Lord is much more beautiful than you, though you are attractive, and I don't really swing that way, sorry."
The coterie now believed they were dealing with some kind of Toreador Antitribu for some reason.
Anyway, they took the ghoul to the Prince. After hearing the ghouls spiel about his master, including a new line about how he served a being greater than the false gods the Prince unknowingly served, the Prince gestured to his sheriff, who crushed the ghoul's skull.

>>53179243
Anon please
First knotposters show up, then tsundere mages follow and then erp happens

>>53179260
DEAL WITH THE CONSEQUENCES OF MY ACTIONS

>>53178711
>>53178801

>In Vampire: The Requiem Second Edition, the Daeva instead are at a greater risk to suffer from blood addiction. Every time a Daeva drinks from a mortal vessel more than once, they have to roll their Humanity in order to avoid dependency, otherwise, their addiction will last until the mortal is dead.

That's just... so utterly stupid. I mean, I get that it fits well with the theme of what a Daeva vampire is, but it's still stupid. I guess all Daeva head off to big cities to avoid feeding on one particular human more than once.

>>53179345
But it's so easy to get a Daeva under your sway. How is it so utterly stupid?

>>53179249
At this point the coterie was confused and a rather standard, hunt down the Sabbat HQ while dealing with mooks and political intrigue had begun.
By the end the coterie was noticing a few things, namely that damn near every ghoul in the Sabbat belonged to this "Lord" and they were all religiously fanatic, and any vampires they ran into would rather die than admit defeat, as if they were personally insulted that they should fail.
Of course the second point was confusing as most vampires do not want to die, then the coterie met him.
I'd named the Tzimisce Joshua because the religious symbolism was ironic and funny to me and WoD loves it so I might as well use it too.
Joshua was physically perfect, highest possible appearance stat, physically not too strong, mentally not all there. He was shirtless because a shirt wouldn't fit over the bones protruding from his back, though silk was draped off them, there was also a silk skirt connected to a ring of bone protruding from the front of his right hip that looped around to connect to a second ring at the back of the right of his hip.
Before they met Joshua, they'd heard his name and learned how he became Archbishop, he'd called the previous Archbishop a cruel and false prophet and held him in the sunlight until he died, by hand.
Joshua knew some sorcery for that one.
When the coterie finally entered his citadel, a flesh palace that moved under the city, burrowing carefully and leaving packed dirt behind it, like a worm you could live in, Joshua did not greet the coterie with threats for invading his sanctum or vitriol for killing his minions, he seemed genuinely hurt that they'd killed his friends though, asking them why.
As I hoped this took them by surprise, but they recovered and called him an evil monster.
Joshua simply inspected himself and asked who said he was a monster, pointing out they were the ones murdering his friends and family, they'd invaded his sanctum, and they had even hurt his home.

>>53179372
I did some cool stuff with the citadel too but I just really liked how thrown away the coterie actually was, they were just like, "Well shit, what did the Sabbat actually do this game?" and realised that they'd just been fighting the Sabbat purely because they thought they were supposed to.
At this point Joshua offered to let them join him, he'd forgive them for the death of his friends and family, all they had to do was repent, genuinely apologise, and help him kill the Antediluvians.
One member of the coterie refused, the rest followed suit. They managed to almost destroy him before he killed them, so they did pretty well considering they were fighting a powerful Tzimisce who was basically 4th Gen through diablerie.

>>53179371

The fact that vampires can be blood bonded to humans. Granted, only a certain kind of vampire, but still.

Anyway, what happens a Domitor is diablerized? Does the blood bond break or just transfer to the vampire who diablerized him?

>>53179806
>The fact that vampires can be blood bonded to humans.

This isn't the same as normal blood bond. It just means human will end up dead

>>53179833

>It just means human will end up dead

What?

>>53178177
>>53178187
I know it's true, but fuck off anyway

>>53179839
They will drink the mortal to death

>>53179919

Where the fuck did you get that from?

>>53179933
How do you think this works?

>>53179933
Vampires don't generally want a walking weakness like that walking around, they're addicted to the blood, drinking the mortal to death is the best fix.

>>53179933
I figured it was a rather obvious conclusion

>>53180029
>>53180035
>>53180055

Here's what 2e has to say on the subject:

>You taste the romance in all things, but none so much as blood. Mortals are not just food. They are your obsession, and that fixation grows with every sip. Drink more than once, from any mortal, and you risk becoming emotionally dependent on your prey.

>>53180060
>Have you ever felt complete and utter tension
when simply thinking about someone? Have you ever made a
stupid excuse to run off and touch yourself to get rid of that
tension? Have you ever blushed when someone’s name came up,
then lashed out when someone accused you of having feelings
for them? This is what the second stage of the bond feels like.
It’s easy to confuse for love. It’s a strong, pervasive affection that
makes you vulnerable, and keeps you persistently wanting more.

Problemy is the guy that wants more from you is super strong monster and you are just a wimpy mortal. This is like Looney Toons Elmyra

>>53180095

While I'm not denying that it's a possibility that the Daeva clan weakness can and probably has ended up killing humans, I don't really think it's as widespread as some people here imagine it is.

If you're obsessed with someone, in such a way to be emotionally dependent on them, you're not going to get rid of them in a permanent way.

Could they probably lock you up, keep you under lock and key forever and ever? Sure. Outright drink you dry? Highly unlikely.

>>53180152
>If you're obsessed with someone, in such a way to be emotionally dependent on them, you're not going to get rid of them in a permanent way.
>what is yandere

Also pretty sure the curse specifies that the condition persists until the object of obsession is kill, and given the nature of the Beast I would say that most Daeva obsessions come to a violent and bloody (and then bloodless) end.

>>53180272

>what is yandere

Anime shit.

>>53180272

>Also pretty sure the curse specifies that the condition persists until the object of obsession is kill

Nope, just until they're dead. Not killed by the Daeva. Just plain old dead. Could be an accident, could be killed by someone else, but nowhere does it say that the Daeva will murder the one with whom they have the emotional dependency bond.

>>53180298
The name is anime shit, but it's not an uncommon concept in other media. Ever heard of Fatal Attraction? That hit movie where a woman becomes dangerously obsessed with a man after a one night stand to the point where she tries to kill him?

>>53180308
To say something "is "kill" is just a meme alternative to saying "dead".

So i heard that awakening is gnostic game about living in the jail that is "human existence" and taking another identity and trying to escape by ascending.

But aside from the shadowname mechanic and mechanics for archmages are any other that enforce that theme or its all setting?

>>53180473
Well, there's the Exarchs and the Seers of the Throne (pseudo-demiurges and their servants), the fixation on curiosity and gaining knowledge (Obsessions, and the first dot of every Arcanum let's you find out lots of things), and Quiescence.

Also, taking on another identity is not mandatory. It's just useful for using your magic and protecting yourself and those close to you.

So how do vampires learn new Disciplines, without resorting to diablerie? Like, how could a non-Gangrel vampire learn Protean?

>>53181121
commonly by having tasted blood with protean in it and havign somebody teach you, but you might get away with having it spawn without a teacher if you have tasted blood with protean in it.

I dont think is ever explicitly stated that this is the way, or even that it has to be from the clan with it as a inclan discipline.

>>53181121
It's not really explained but it's logically and practically possible, since all Caine himself had all those cool clan unique disciplines so the lower gen ones should as well.

But I should note that AFAIK only low gens (6th and lower) know disciplines other than their clan's

>>53181238
Have you even read a WW book and read what disiplines vampires have in them???

No idea where you get the idea that a 13th gen cant have out of clan disciplines from

Early 1e masq 90% of characters had fucking Thaumaturgy ffs.

No any gen can have any discipline if they can find a teacher (and maybe some blood from whoever has it)

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>>53177781
Lupines are manageable. Garou can snap their fingers and set a vampire on fire, impale a lick with a sword and temporarily turn it into wood to stake them after the fact, and have more of a variety of "enchanted objects" than vampires can comprehend.

>>53178187
>Archmastery

Come back when your book is better put together than Inanimae.

>>53180394
Yandere is when they try to kill everyone else first. It's rare that they actually try to kill the object of their affection; they typically try to brainwash or cripple. Killing is a last resort, punctuated by keeping some part of them as a momento.

>>53181613
I said that because I personally have not seen a high gen vampire have an out of clan discipline. I cracked open children of the night to check, and read all the sabbat chars and some of the cams.

Not one above 6 had one of the unique clan disciplines (obtenetration, chimersty, vicissitiude)

Do any of the WoD or CoD books include rules for creating your own monster/critter for the players to have to deal with?

If not, any advice?

The issue is, I don't want to create a vampire or something, but a much more animal-like creature. So I can't just make an NPC and refluff it.

>>53181121

Depends. Though many disciplines can be learned without a tutor, it of course goes without saying that it's a lot easier having someone trained in the discipline guiding you along.

This is touched on in the "Time of Thin Blood" supplement, as it goes into detail on how Thin Bloods could develop disciplines on their own without having a teacher, sometimes even learning them by accident.

The Physical Disciplines (Potence, Fortitude and Celerity) are the easiest to learn, because they're just an extension of the vampire's body's feats. It's just a matter of practicing until they see an improvement (punching cinder blocks until they break, slowly exposing your body to dangerous elements like fire, or just trying to run faster). Even a brand new vampire will probably see improvements over a few months, maybe even as little as a few weeks.

Some other disciplines are also easy to learn for many people because they simply tie in to common vampiric myths. Auspex, Presence, Obfuscate, Dominate and especially Protean can all be learned without a tutor, though those all take much more time to learn on their own (years, rather than months). Trying to stay hidden will help develop Obfuscate, exclusively drinking from animals and trying to train them will help with Animalism, and so on.

Clan-specific disciplines (like Serpentis or Vicissitude) are VERY difficult to learn because they're so "out there", and learning them on your own would probably be the culmination of decades, if not centuries, of work, depending on the vampire's personal talent and penchant for learning.

And of course, stuff like Thaumaturgy or Necromancy are all but impossible to learn on your own, because they're very structured, are made up of centuries of study and experimentation, and often require specific reagents to work.

>>53181703
>It's rare that they actually try to kill the object of their affection
Right, but it still happens. Couple that with the literal force of savage thirst for blood that inhabits every vampire and the chances of survival for a Daeva's obsession drop considerably.

>>53181860
WoD: Possesed, Urban Legends for H:tR, Ascension's Right Hand for Mage can also be used in this fashion. Also, WoD: Bygone Bestiary.

CofD: Vigil's core book, Skinchangers, and... Changing Breeds, if you can stomach it.

>>53181960

I imagine Obtenebration is impossible for anyone who's not a Lasombra, because I don't see them sharing it with anyone.

>>53181982
>I imagine Obtenebration is impossible for anyone who's not a Lasombra, because I don't see them sharing it with anyone.

Not impossible... but it'd probably be very hard to learn, yeah. It's not something you'd be able to work out how to use after a single year on your own, or some shit.

>>53181982
>>53182024
Depending on which canon your storyteller is using it might be impossible, so would Vicissitude.
There's a version of the canon where those two disciplines come from somewhere outside the blood and found their way in.

>>53182076

Nah, Vicissitude existed since always, it comes from the Eldest.

>>53182091
Cain is the eldest?
I said there was a version of the canon where it came from somewhere else and Tzimisce got a hold of it, somehow. It's like a fungal disease or something in that version though.

>>53182128

The "Eldest" is how the Tzimisce referred to their Antediluvian. I presume because he was the eldest among the 3rd Generation?

>>53181860
Chronicles of darkness has a chapter dedicated to creating monsters ans ghosts amd theor dedicated powers

>>53182142
Oh yeah, forgot about that, you said since always so I was confused because of the context around Eldest.
In this version it still came from Tzimisce but he got it from outside the blood and added it to his blood.

>>53182024
One can easily, depending on your fiddling with canon, make it so variations sometimes occur. I had a game where one of my players was embraced and manifested obtenebration alongside the normal tremere stuff

Hey tg, i will be playing a changeling the lost game (1st).

No dreams or fatebound is allowed and there wont be any crossover.

I will be playing a ogre street/irish brawler. What combat merits i should get to kick ass?

>>53182646
Dunno about powers but are you going to play Dropkick Murphys every time fight starts?

Is this how I should Void Engineer?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YGV6bCTMM5w

>>53177587
Just create a mage that needs to use really impratical foci, so your vampires would have this kind of advantage.

>>53178127
To remove a Nosfe ugliness you just need a Tzimiske with Vicissitude or a Defiler/Devourer Demon.

>>53183252
Ech won't Nosferatu just revert back to his normal form after some time?

>>53178893
You just need to spend a blood point to last more than anyone.

>>53183252

>While its effects are normally permanent, vampires of lower generation can heal fleshcrafting transformations over time. Likewise, the clan curse of the Nosferatu cannot be removed through use of Vicissitude.

>>53183320
Last time I checked that would happen if you would try surgery, not with disciplines and other stuff.

Good luck finding a Tzimiske that will make you normal instead of more hideous. Better luck with demons.

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Time for More New Changeling 20th Arts.

Legerdemain 3
Effigy

The character could (briefly) drive in the
effigy of a car, shoot the replica gun she created with this Art, or climb the effigy of a tree.

Niiiiice!

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Legerdemain 2: Mooch
Mooch provides changelings a quick and easy method of
paying for a meal, or collecting an impressive set of keys, mobile
phones, or any other objects that catch their eye. If successful,
Mooch instantly transfers one inanimate object from the possession of the target to the changeling.
The item can appear in the character’s hand, pocket, or sock — anywhere on her
person she desires.

System: The Realm must indicate the current owner,
holder, or container of the object in question, but so long as the
character knows the target has the item, she does not need to
see it when she casts the cantrip. The shoelaces from a nocker’s
new boots requires Fae, Actor for the business card handed to
the security guard, Prop to filch the count’s favorite coffee mug
from the cupboard, and Nature to get the childling’s kite stuck
up in a tree. If an item is simply left unattended with no owner,
container, or guardian, Mooch becomes useless.

The changeling needs to steal the desired trinket the old fashioned way.
The target can roll Perception + Alertness (difficulty 8) as a resisted action to notice the item is missing.
Type: Chimerical or Wyrd (depending on if the item mooched is purely chimerical or not)

>>53182899

Probably or rocky road to dublin

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>>53183438

Nosferatu always “heal” Vicissitude alterations, at least the ones that make them better looking. The ancient curse of the Clan may not be circumvented through Vicissitude. The same applies to physical deformities from the Gangrel Clan weakness."

From V20 Core Rulebook, pg 241.

They *MIGHT* be able to retain Vicissitude alterations if they aren't "pretty", but that's left up to the Storyteller.

In fact, the Tzimisce find themselves endlessly fascinated with Nosferatu research subjects that always revert to a baseline form at the end of each night. They sometimes use Nossies as "training dummies", since they can basically screw up as much as they want without doing lasting harm to the Nossie. Of course, it's horrificially and mindbreakingly painful for the Nossie, but that's not exactly something most Tzimisce care about.

>>53183438
Wouldn't they just reset when they rose the next night?

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So how exactly did Caine curse his grandchildren so hard that their curse needs prime 6 to break?

Isn't he just a pretty powerful vampire?

Is Caine an archmage?

>>53181121
>>53181177
>>53181238
>>53181825
>>53181960
V20 actually covers this. Disciplines fall into three categories:

>in clan, non-sorcery: Can be learned independently by the vampire.
>Out of clan, non-sorcery: Must taste the blood of a vampire with access to the discipline and must be taught the first level.
>Sorcery: Must be taught at every level, in clan or out.

Alternatively, Revised era MET opened up the eight common disciplines to all vampires.

>>53184742

I once read some neat little fantheory, about how Lilith was about to Awaken Caine to his Mage potential, so God intervened before that could happened and just so happened to curse him with the one thing that would rob him of the Mage potential.

>Isn't he just a pretty powerful vampire?

He can, IIRC, make up new Disciplines on the spot and be the absolute best at them.

>>53180272
Yanderes don't necessarily want to kill you. The Daeva aren't obliged to kill their obsessions.

>>53184788
>He can, IIRC, make up new Disciplines on the spot and be the absolute best at them.

Not on the spot, but he can improvise. Similar to the Salubri.

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>>53184886

>Caine's capacities are usually described as being outside the ability of the Storyteller system to model. Given that he is two generations beyond the power of the Antediluvians, it is reasonable to assume that he has completely mastered all Disciplines potentially to a greater degree than 3rd generation.

>Caine was able to see when one of his children's Disciplines had worked on a human. He was also able to cancel the effects of any Discipline used in his vicinity. It was this total mastery of all Disciplines that kept Caine in power, truly, for although he was a decent king and an honest law-giver, his Disciplines ensured that the rest of the powerful kindred stayed in line. Caine had the ability to create new Disciplines on the spot if he wished. It is thought that his power to do this was the forerunner of the blood magic and its several paths.

Granted, the source for this is the Book of Nod.

>>53184886
Caine can create them on the spot, the Salubri take time.

Granted, an Archmage of Prime could strip Caine of his Disciplines and capabilities using Prime 6.

>>53184947
>>53184976

Shut up you whores. Let's not start this again.

>>53185004

What? I was just bringing up Book of Nod stuff. Ignore the other person. Don't reply, that just encourages them. Get 4chanX and use recursive filtering.

>>53184742
Caine is basically what a Mage would be if he was also a Vampire

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So let's say a Daeva does fall under its clan weakness/bane. What are the chances that the Daeva will then Embrace the human they're infatuated with?

>>53185029
I think that's ur-Shulgi

>>53184976
>Prime 6
Can also be used to remove his seven-fold curse, cure vampirism and other divine whatnot.
Still not as overpowered as Correspondence 6. Prime 9 can create universes, 10 dots being "whatever the fuck you want"

>>53180298

Yandares don't want to kill the target of their love. They just fuck everyone who gets between them and whoever they're obsessed with. They'll usually only hurt their love as a last ditch effort to keep them from actually leaving. If they go through and kill the object of their affections, they pretty much always try to kill themselves too.

>>53185063
ur-Shulgi isn't a mage. Though he's described as a "battlemage" for ease of his description.

Vampires don't have access to true magick. Not even Caine. They can't control the pillars of existence, but are potent in their own right.

>>53185023
He's not wrong though. One has to wonder why an Archmage hasn't just killed Caine yet.

It's not like they don't know about him either. Voormas stole the dagger used to kill Abel.

>>53185063

Is ur-Shulgi the one who woke up from torpor after centuries-long sleep, broke the Tremere blood curse and then started purging the Assamite from the muslims?

>>53177575

Echoing this, does anyone have V20 Dark Ages Companion yet?

>>53185142
Yep.

He did all this in a week too.

>>53185117
>One has to wonder why an Archmage hasn't just killed Caine yet.
It's because White Wolf isn't as autistic as this place.

>>53185142
Yes, that would be him. The weird burnt child vampire. The only other canon blood sorcerer on his level would be Baba Yaga.

Of course I'm not going to compare the two to Antediluvian sorcerers or actual Archmages, but Ur and Baba are still impressive.

>>53185171

What a swell guy. Now if only he wasn't a diablerist fucking shit, that'd be great.

I really wish we could have seen some other Methuselah waking up from torpor and therein issuing a bitchslapping fest.

>>53185184
Except White Wolf IS autistic. They gave Archmages universe ending powers yet existence still stands for some reason.

At least Awakening goes into detail regarding this.

>>53185194

Yeah, no, I get that mages are their own separate tier, for good reason, but it's still neat seeing sorcerers or what nots in the vampire society.

But other than those already mentioned, are there any more well known users of magic among vampires? I know the Setites have their own thing and the Tzimisce have their Koldunic sorcery and even the Lasombra have some sort of Abyss mysticism.

>>53185227
Not that I can recall. Though there are a good two dozen variations of blood magic in canon.

>>53185291

Baba Yaga got stomped by one of the Nictuku, right?

>>53184768
>Alternatively, Revised era MET opened up the eight common disciplines to all vampires.

So V20 doesn't have the "physical disciplines are easy for any vampire to learn" thing anymore?

>>53185117
>Voormas stole the dagger used to kill Abel.

I thought he bashed Abel's head in with a rock.

>>53185309
Yeah, but how it happened was pure shit.

I had hoped Beckett's Diary would have a better version, but no, the sample chapter has him finding her bones and suffering visions

>>53185171
>Yep.
>He did all this in a week too.

Beckett's Jyhad Diary mentions that Ur-Shulgi still had to use a ritual involving the (painfully) stolen heartsblood of dozens of Assamite Elders (specifically, the ones who retained their worship of Allah), and that the Assamite curse only was as successful as it was because the Assamites *agreed* to it (and the Tremere had to ritually sacrifice a LOT of their own just to cast the ritual in the first place).

The fact that the Tremere curse was cast through a sympathetic bond between the (former) Eldest of clan Assamite and the Tremere elders was the reason why it was so relatively easy to break... and the Baali curse was beyond even Ur-Shulgi's power.

Of course, Ur-Shulgi's slaughter of the muslim Assamites for the ritual isn't fuelled by religion: it doesn't give two craps about Haqim or Allah, it just wants to use the Assamites for its own plans, and the Warriors' bloodthirsty devotion of Haqim is something it finds easy to manipulate.

>>53185345
The dagger of the first murder was carved out of a rock.

>>53185379
It's still impressive that he broke a clan-wide curse after waking up from a 2+ millenia long sleep with only an evening's preparation though

>>53185379

>Of course, Ur-Shulgi's slaughter of the muslim Assamites for the ritual isn't fuelled by religion: it doesn't give two craps about Haqim or Allah, it just wants to use the Assamites for its own plans, and the Warriors' bloodthirsty devotion of Haqim is something it finds easy to manipulate.

Did OPP write this into the Beckett Jyhad Diary thing?

>>53185058
>What are the chances that the Daeva will then Embrace the human they're infatuated with?
It's a possibility. But vampires are technically dead, right? So the question is if the Daeva would still have the obsession for their new childe.

>>53185439

No, it would break the bond between them, given that a human has to die before they become a vampire or they die in the process of becoming a vampire. I forget how VtR handles it. Drain the body of blood and then what?

Would ur-Shulgi or Baba Yaga ever collaborate with an Archmage?

>>53185471
Yes. Why not?

>>53185471
Would they go out of their way to seek a super wizard? Perhaps, if they really needed to.

Would the super wizard go out of his way to seek them out? Definitely not.

>>53185471
I have a feeling the Archmage would just kill them both after the collaboration.

>>53185471
Both of them are stir-fucking crazy, and ur-Shulgi has demon possession marks on him to boot.

>>53185555
>muh magical research

>>53185117
>>53185117
Anso the lord sayeth
"he who slayeth Caine, shall suffer sevenfold"
or some shit like that
If even cutting him would give you the pain he suffered multiplied seven times, imagine what would happen if you actually killed him

Plus, i highly doubt Caine can actually die, one way or the other. The curse of god clearly stated that he was going to bear the mark of the kinslayer for all eternity

>>53185319
>So V20 doesn't have the "physical disciplines are easy for any vampire to learn" thing anymore?

V20 Dark Ages mentions that Cainites don't need a teacher to learn Physical disciplines on page 188.

> Theoretically, a Cainite may learn any Discipline with time and tutelage. She can learn the three physical Disciplines, Celerity, Fortitude, and Potence, without a teacher. She may also learn her three affinity Disciplines on her own. Other Disciplines require a mentor who knows the Discipline, and the specific level desired. At Storyteller discretion, clan-specific Disciplines such as Vicissitude and rare bloodline Disciplines like Temporis may require the student drink the mentor’s blood, establishing a partial blood oath.

>>53185594
>sevenfold curse
You really need to read the entirety of the posts here before you bring this up.

>>53185309
Well the Nictuku are of the same gen as Baba Yaga, so it's not so weird that it happened.
Also Vasillisa was described as not even have the need to use disciplines, because he/she "trascended" them.

Baba Yaga was able to keep an Angel from being pulled back to the Abyss without confinement in an object or human host, a thing that needs a really specific ritual and the angel would be limited in movement normally, but not in Baba Yaga case, this didn't stop the poor angel to gain a shitton of Torment thou.

About Caine, I have my personal theory about his potential, before the curse, in Demon is said that his act of murder was what brought violence and hatred into the world, even affecting angels during the war thet before that were fighting by sheer "competitions" rathen by true battles.

In short, IMHO Caine was the first Mage to awaken, and it was god damn powerful that brought a concept that wasn't planned into gods divine scheme, so God tried to make him redime himself, but when he saw that he wasn't able to do that, he cursed him and destroyed his Avatar so he wouldn't be able to wreck havok anymore. The importance of this act is even underlined by the fact that God took priority into Punishing Caine rather than intervening during a major city attack by the Fallen.

>>53185419
>Did OPP write this into the Beckett Jyhad Diary thing?

Yep.

> Those who study the mystery of ur-Shulgi (and who survive the experience) learn many frightening things about the Black Shepherd. Most notably, he cares nothing either for the Web of Knives or his sire, Haqim. Ur-Shulgi used the heart’s blood of scores of disloyal Assamite elders to break the Tremere curse. To what ends will he put the untold thousands of Kindred who will die at the hands of the blood cult he now leads?

>>53185418
>It's still impressive that he broke a clan-wide curse after waking up from a 2+ millenia long sleep with only an evening's preparation though

A week's preparation, not an evening's.

>>53185460
>Drain the body of blood and then what?
A drop of the soon to be Sire's blood, iirc.

>>53185594
The sevenfold curse is a divine driven curse, which can be eradicated using Prime 6.

Or why even bother? Forces on its own can counter the countered force. Or just imprison him for all eternity, or send him flying light-speed into space using Correspondence 6.

>>53185660
You prefer to have more than 1 drop if you don't want the childe to enter into beastly rage the first seconds of his unlife, but yes, you just need 1 drop in theory.

>>53185619
The theory is that Lilith was a mage, not Caine. If Caine was formerly a mage, then she was one before him.

>>53185692
First, I said that was my take, secondly, did you even bother to read what I wrote or do you just write for the sake of it?

>>53185649
Both NoP and CoN make it seem as if he woke up, went straight to Alamut, staked the eldest, purged the muslims, then at the end of the whole week broke the curse

>>53185708
Woah, so hostile. I read it all. The "Lilith was a mage" is a theory from the 90s.

It wouldn't surprise me if Caine was formerly a mage, I just think Lilith has more fingers pointing to her than him.

>>53185625

Then I'll be content to ignore it for my own purposes. More often than not, I tend to dislike OPP playing lore revisionist with VtM.

>>53185660

Don't you also need to sacrifice 1 stat point or something?

>>53185681
I remember reading that most sires go for one drop and then direct the childe to whatever kine they brought just for that purpose.

>>53185692

If Lilith was indeed a mage, then she wouldn't have to bother with all the shit in Fair is Foul she did in order to avoid God going sevenfold vengeance on her ass. And given that God cursed her, to forever be unloved and ever abandoned by those she takes to her bed, I doubt she was a mage. Something on the road of becoming one? Sure. But I think God interfered there as well.

>>53185782
The legends describe Lilith as "Awakening" Caine to abilities not seen since herself. She is literally referred to as one of the original Verbena(the Wyck / First Ones) by the actual Tradition.

There is more going for her on both sides.

>>53185829

No, I know that, it's just that with all the powers that a mage has in their range, she should have been able to remove the curse placed on her by God and easily circumvent the sevenfold vengeance curse placed on Caine by God. Given that she did neither, I'm just guessing she'd gotten her path to ascension hampered by God himself, so as to prevent her from interfering too much.

So if it only takes six dots in a Sphere to beat Caine 1v1, how many would be needed to beat God?

>>53185744
I guess then you lack reading comprehension. I'm not being hostile, I just don't like when I write a post and the main point is completely ignored for something that I didn't even write.

The point of my post was to underlight the reason of god particular punishment and the importance that he gave to it, by also saying that Caine was a pretty powerful mage that was able to change all of creation because of a mere act, I wasn't discussing the "Lilith was a Verbena" theory, and I wrote that Caine was the first mage to awaken because I didn't remember about Lilith, even thou she doesn't show any kind of magic(k) in that regard so she may have know how certain things works, but maybe she didn't have any power.

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Anyone here read Lucifer? I liked the Lilith from that series.

>>53185901
Magic defines the planet as a whole, the Consensus being absolute based on the overwhelming dominance of Paradigm.

Caine isn't special in this regard, so why hasn't God honed down on all mages? It's a flaw in your theory. But interesting nonetheless.

>>53185066
>Masters of the Art

Again, why aren't you mentioning the redundant levels of Archspheres, or the shit that doesn't fit? Come back when your book has had proper editing and oversight passes. Until then, you might as well be citing an unfinished playtest document, and while first editions of WoD stuff were what they were, that's an excellent reason to keep to newer material.

>>53185956
Book is shit, yeah. It's still entirely canon even as of M20 according to fuckdaddy Brucato.

>>53185939
>Magic defines the planet as a whole, consensus consensus consensus

Only in Mage. No other games give them that room. No other games feature the Consensus. It's almost as if Mage is off in its own little Paradox Realm, suffering a game-wide episode of Quiet while much less unreasonable mystics and engineers fill in for them where needed.

>>53185970
If the book is shit it fits right there with M20

>>53185987
>Only in Mage

Mages exist in Masquerade.

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Anyone here ever played a True Brujah? How did that work out for you?

>>53185970
So, in the end, there you have it, >>53185221. No one cares enough to do anything.

>>53186025
Archmages truly are the laziest fuckers in the universe.

>>53186015
Certainly, some people might call themselves mages. Mages as they are in Mage are only a thing in Mage, however. You're not under any obligation to put up with any postmodern BS in other games, and in fact ignoring Mage is pretty much required for other games to make sense.

>>53186041
>Mages as they are in Mage are only a thing in Mage, however

The Order of Hermes exists in Masquerade.

>>53185939
I guess that the Consensus was way weaker or even nonexistant at that point.

Using Demon's lore, God created humanity with the potential to become Mages, Demon's saw that and wanted to help them develop it, because at the time humanity wasn't even able to appreciate something as simple as "beauty"
But, when they did that chaos ensured and the fall began, as well as the War in Heaven. Human in God vision were to develop their powers at their own unknown pace, but Demon's "forced" that out of love and because they foresaw a great disaster with humans having a major role in it. So, the event of Caine doing what he did wasn't intended, or maybe it was? Was the creation of violence and murder The Great Disaster? This is up to interpretation of what ending you would define canon in the Book of Judgement, where it says that maybe the very event of the Rebellion was induced by God itself by being aid from Lucifer.

>>53186060
Again, it's just a name. Look further into it, and the guts won't be the same. The inner workings of their magic will just be a thing that exists, like any sorcerer or hedge mage, but have higher risks.

>>53186072
How Mages and their Avatars came to be varies from line to line.

>God created everything
>God splintered himself in the process
>Each splinter being an Avatar

Just another theory using Demon's lore.

>>53186093

>God splintered himself

Now, I'm only starting to get into Mage: The Ascension, but wasn't it angelic shards that provide the path to Ascension?

>>53186093
This is actually the most canon theory. It supports the Chorus' methodology and the act of "unifying with a greater whole" upon Ascension, as well as the hints in Masters of the Art suggesting an ancient mage created everything.

It still doesn't answer the possibility of God and the "extradimensional consciousness" being one and the same.

>>53186093
>using Demon's lore

Demon's lore barely holds even for Demon. They're beings who have been put through a metaphysical wringer that they don't even fully recall and their recollections were made to fit the human perceptions of their hosts. ToJ's Paradise Lost wankery can't even be taken as canon, because all of those books were a giant pile of what ifs.

>>53186136
>answer the possibility of God and the "extradimensional consciousness" being one and the same.

The extradimensional entity explicitly never involves itself in the mundane, or else the Oracles as plot-devices would be invalidated. Once you Ascend you're too powerful to care anymore.

God intervened on occasions, which leads me to conclude that he isn't in-fact the supreme being of the WoD. Possibly just a powerful Celestine as Apocalypse suggests, akin to Gaia and The Triat.

>>53186093
In Demon Lore God didn't splinter himself in the process, at least, not enterely if at all.
Because after the Fall (And the creation of humanity) He appeared and enraged, he wounded creation with a really powerful blow, basically creating what is known as Entropy, to then "leave". The fact that God died during this smite is one possibility of the Book of Judgement, but I don't remember that its essence shattered afterwards, also because that would conflict with the original fluff, that stated that humans had their potentail BEFORE the Fall even happened, and before the Fall god was present and shown on them every day.

It's been a month where the fuck is the scion update

>>53186190
It depends on what you cite. God "vanished" after splintering.

In some supplements he's just an uncaring douche.

>>53186185
>Gaia and the Triat
>Celestines

They're above spiritual rankings, anon. Are you the same anon trying to make a case using earlier books? Because if so this next part could go around in circles for a while, so i'll just go ahead and say that the early editions where things might have slipped up and mentioned them in a spiritual ranking are being discounted in this discussion.

>>53185956
Are you seriously saying we should discount books with bad editing? Because that eliminates every single book every published by Whitewolf to this day.

>>53186215
They're actually described as Celestines in pre W20 material.

Annoying, but true.

>>53186198
>Scion

That's neither WoD nor CofD. Maybe start a thread just for it? It's not like anyone here is guaranteed to know more than you.

>>53186215
>newer editions are more canon than others

Yeaaaahhhh no. Even the writers don't believe this.

>>53186136
I would give a shot at throwing in some additional gnosticism. Lets say we have this supermage-creator that splits himself by accident. Smaller bits become the avatars while large bit becomes intelligent and turns into owod God.

Just theorycrafting here

>>53186223
Pre-2nd edition. Revised did not make that slip-up.

>>53186221
Certainly books that are on par with Inanimae or Land of Eight Million Dreams. If every last sphere writeup for archspheres is shit, then why bother mentioning it except to point at it and laugh?

>>53186245
This would make the most sense to me.

>>53186257
>slip-up

Not a slip-up. It's varying editions doing what they do best.

>>53186237
Immaterial. The W:tA 2e core even mentions Celestines being under the Triat and Gaia. If a freelancer slips up from time to time, it's just a slip-up.

>>53186289
The early ones being unreliable on purpose, while the later ones deciding that they're not going to yank your chain around anymore because it's not getting anyone anywhere and serves no purpose?

Besides, this isn't even between editions. It happens between books in editions where it was set down that the Triat and Gaia are above Celestine rank. Definitely, definitely a slip-up.

>>53186223
My Master said (He owns the W20 book) That the Triat is Celestine rank, and that Gaia is superior to them, is it possible that Gaia may be just the union of the Triat?

>>53186245
Except that is stated (always in Demon) That God was present even before the creation of well... Creation. He then created the Angels of Dawn to define the confines of what it is and what's not and humans are his creation by using angels as tools of creation. (Pretty much like an artist uses photoshop to create art)

>>53186156
Some demons perfectly Recall the past, not all of them thou. there is even a Background camp to see how much do you remember, called Legacy.
They can even describe it, by saying "with multiple facets", it's a problem of human perception not being able to fully understand it because too much time as passed since God "folded" existence into itself with his Smite.
Also the Humans that choose to follow Him had their memories wiped out and the descendants of current humanity I guess is based on them (Because the Deluge happened)

>>53186346
No Demon can perfectly recall the past as long as they're in a vessel; unfortunately for them, if they're in a vessel, then they can't speak.

Also, if your "master" has W20, he may have just skimmed a few parts or outright lied to you, because that isn't what the book says.

>>53186404
Dunno about the W20, I can take the theory of lying because we have a weird policy of "no spoilers" only narration discoveries, also sorry about master, by using different systems ST wasn't the first choice it came to my mind.

>No Demon can perfectly recall the past as long as they're in a vessel; unfortunately for them, if they're in a vessel, then they can't speak.
Again, it depends on your Legacy, the description isn't 100% clear on the amount of information, but many demons in the core book seems to remember clearly what happened before and after the Fall, while others just remember a part of it, while others again don't even remember to be demons at all, and the human host seems to have a better grip on them for some reason, (this last kind would be interesting to play in my opinion.)

>>53186346
>Except that is stated (always in Demon) That God was present even before the creation of well... Creation. He then created the Angels of Dawn to define the confines of what it is and what's not and humans are his creation by using angels as tools of creation. (Pretty much like an artist uses photoshop to create art)

That would not necessarily invalidate my theory. If we drop creator from my supermage creator and still split him we are left with avatar splinters floating in the void and demiurg-large piece that then creates the world in with he traps avatar-spinters that then bond with humans he created.

I'm going with the version of blind-idiot-god that has all the power but little wisdom so stumbles and fucks up all the time

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Time for More Changeling Arts, This is the Master Level of "Naming" The art that deals with true names.

You idiots are basically arguing over nothing.

Each of the gamelines has produced differing takes on supreme beings and origin stories.
The Triat is above God in Apocalypse, and an extradimensional thing is above everything else in Ascension.

>>53186684
Mage arguably has the best take on the WoD cosmology, with Werewolf right behind.

Vampire is terrible at it.

>>53186301
Eh, a case can still be made for the Triat being Celestines.

No need to be obsessive about it. Are you worried about Archmages dominating them? Because they still do, regardless of their rank.

>>53186773
It only requires AT LEAST twenty-five successes for an Archmage to enslave Celestines and above, at Spirit 6.

Forces Archmastery can also explicitly troll The Triat in Masters of the Art, capable of forcing the Shenti upon themselves, forcing the three mighty spirits to interact.

>>53185889
>how many would be needed to beat God?

Forces 9 / Prime 9
Remake the universe into a multiverse with yourself as its new Omnipotent.

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>>53186684
I know we are just trying to do patchwork for White Wolf loreteam, but I find it to be a fun and interesting topic fun, instead of the usual magewankery.

What if I told you that Earthbound Demon can go full Lovecraft and summon things that are from outside of God Creation? Called the Chaos Realms, so when God decided what was and what wasn't didn't really leave a void behind.

>>53186996
The Nephandi can effectively do the same, on a much larger scale.

It always irked me that the two never got involved.

>>53187034
Didn't the Unnamed blacken the entire universe whilst doing just that?

>>53187075
yes

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>He still cares about oWoD

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>>53187075

He did.

>>53186773
No, and no.

>>53186719
Mage only has the best solipism.

>>53187155
Is this when they were still playing the connection to Exalted angle? What book is this from?

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>>53187140

Entropy > Life

>>53187173
It's from a possible future in which the leader of the Nephandi wins and turns Creation inside out.

>>53187173
No. The Exalted angle was scrapped before Exalted came out, so everything WoD became a bunch of parallel settings to the weird fantasy setting of Exalted.

>>53187187
I know what none of that means but I take that as no.
>>53187189
I still can't believe they thought that was a good idea, if even for like only a few months.

>>53187155
>Would definitely spank Caine

You missed out the other sidebars where it's basically impossible to even fight the Unnamed without going insane or even making a roll / move

>>53186556
That's fucking awesome.

>>53187173
Nope, that was Demon that was supposed to be the mirror splat to Exalted.

>>53187187
Whats a Nephandi?

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>>53187256
Good ol entropy 10.

>>53187267
Insane lovecraftian wizards trying to ruin everything and pissing off both the Traditions and the Union.

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>>53187265
Reweaving 4 isn't shabby either, and remember this can be enhanced by using the time realm too.

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>>53187369

So can't changeling the lost be this cool?

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>>53187383
>>53187369

I head you all like True Names... Reweaving 3.
Saning.... Once a fae gets your true name, all magic difficulties against you are a -5

>>53187383
Can you use multiple realms for one cantrip casting?

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>>53187518

Yes, The most common are scene (Lets you affect multiple targets at once) or Time, which alters the activation and the duration of cantrips.

Some Cantrips like Vailed Eyes, which makes you invisible/Unnoticed by people, use the Target realm of what you want to be unnoticed (so Actor for people, Fae for yourself, or prop for objects) but if you add another realm to it you can make it so the 2nd realm is excluded from the effect, so if you Use Actor to make a person unoticed, you could add fae so that only other changelings can notice the person, or Nature so Animals can still see them.

Adding an Extra realm always costs 1 Glamour, and using Scene or Time is 1 Glamour +1 Difficulty

>>53182142
Because he was the Eldest of Tzimisce, isn't that obvious?

>>53187617

Cantrip casting has also changed a lot, Its no longer Attribute + Art for dice pool,

Its now Max rank in Art + Max Rank in Primary Realm.>

So I if I had Chicanery 3 and Fae 3, and I was casting Veiled Eyes 2, and Im a commoner so Fae 1, My Dice pool is 6, (Chicanery 3, Fae 3) Base difficulty 8.... My affinity realm is Fae so -1 difficulty, I do a quick easy bunk -2, so Im down to difficulty 5.

You can also cheat in realms you dont have.... by spending a glamour for each rank of the needed realms... so Lets say I needed fae 3 to affect a Sphinx Chimera... I only have Fae 1, I can spend 2 extran glamour on the cantrip casting to cheat it.

Are changelings enough to combat mages? Both old and new?

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>>53187716

>>53187716
I can't tell what's bait or an honest question anymore.

The magefags and false flaggers are everywhere.

>>53187693
How do you determine the Primary Realm? Is it the Realm you have the highest rank in, or...?

>>53187735
The threads have become so starved for content that flamewars are all we have. Well, that and the fact that people now know its such a touchy subject that its an easy derail.

>>53187735

The Magefags effectively rule /wodg/ at this point.

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>>53187749

The Primary Realm is the main realm used, the one that is used before you determine any other extra effects from realms.

Scene and Time can never be the primary realm.

All fae also have access to a new way of casting Cantrips without Realms called "Unleashing" It can be insanely powerful but also very dangerous.

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>>53187866

>>53187228

It makes sense if you consider the scene at the time. Shadowrun has a prequel about the 4th Age and Deadlands had two sequels. Presenting other parts of a metaplot's timeline as a separate game was a trend.

>>53187292
So like prototype abyss?

>>53188010
Somewhat.

>>53187866
>>53187885
Y'know, this is a lot more impressive than I figured Changeling powers in WoD were. I'd been told that Dreaming was more "pretendy" than the other gamelines and that changelings largely could only do their arts in freeholds and other special places, with an undercurrent of "are you *really* something other than human, or do you just have a really overactive imagination?"

I fucking hate Changeling faggots

>>53188276
I bet you are a magefag

>>53188201

Changeling (original oWoD Changeling) gets a bad rap from people who don't understand it.

Give the book a read, I would highly suggest C20, but 2nd Edition is good too.

>>53187716
Demons and Mummies can take on Mages up to but not including Archmastery.
Other splats could in the right circumstances beat a Mage up to an Adept but no greater in power.
Nothing is more powerful than an Archmage.

So those guys a few threads back who stated that the Guide to the Technocracy's perspective on the Technocratic Paradigm and Banality was a misinterpretation?

That "misinterpretation" has been repeated in C20, such that Technocrats contain literally no glamor, but "Pure Banality" capable of "burning a changeling from the inside out".

>>53188355
SHUSH YOU

Nobody likes fairies!

>>53188512
TBF, we have no idea what any splat is like once they hit 6 dots, yet.
We're getting Thousand Years of Night, soon, so we'll know shit about 6+ vampires, but we have no fucking clue about bodhisattva werewolves, or anything else at all.
(Granted, Mage will still probably be the strongest all-around, because they aren't as focused on specific things as the other splats)

Not like it matters; the splats aren't balanced against each other, they're balanced against themselves, etc etc

>>53187759
That's what happens when you've got a general for a decade dead/newly dead game.

Saw the same stuff happen to the horus heresy general, and /got/ on /tv/

>>53188666
Technically we know what they all are like at 6+, it's just mages have a super special evolution. Like, there are plenty of mages at gnosis 6+, and maybe a few dozen archmages at best.
It'd be pretty easy to fill in the holes if you want those beings to be the things mentioned at the start of imperial mysteries that represent the other splats in the ascension war.

>>53188666
A Thousand Years of Night isn't going to be the Archmage equivalent for Requiem, anon.

This was made explicit.

>>53188735
>Technically we know what they all are like at 6+
No CofD gameline other than Awakening currently has 6+ capabilities.

>and maybe a few dozen archmages at best.
There's never more than a hundred Archmasters at any given time.

>It'd be pretty easy to fill in the holes if you want those beings to be the things mentioned at the start of imperial mysteries that represent the other splats in the ascension war.
The splat sponsors aren't playable, except for perhaps the True Fae. Though they're not traditional Templates, unlike Archmages.

>>53188512
>Nothing is more powerful than an Archmage.

Well, nothing playable is more powerful than an Archmage. Though of course Archmages can surpass actual gods as well, such as Luna and the God-Machine.

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What's the best vampire slaying strategies for mortals and ghouls? Long range recon and torching their havens?

>>53186016
I don't think they're supposed to be playable and they would probably be forbidden if white wolf was into forbidding things.

>>53188804
>No CofD gameline other than Awakening currently has 6+ capabilities.
No, what I meant is that they all have rules in the corebook for their stat at 6+. All it does it grows their thingy pool, and lets them take attributes/abilities past 5. A mage can have gnosis 7 or whatever and all that does for them is get them more mana at once and they can spend XP to take their stats up, just like everyone else. Archmages are their own special thing thats kind of not the same as a mage.

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>>53186016

>>53188903
Wasn't it brought up at one point that a Gnosis 5 Master is enough to one-shot a Blood Potency 10 Elder?

>A mage can have gnosis 7 or whatever and all that does for them is get them more mana at once and they can spend XP to take their stats up, just like everyone else
It does a lot more than that.

>>53188928

A Master only needs an Exceptional Success to nuke anything dead.

>>53188928
>Wasn't it brought up at one point that a Gnosis 5 Master is enough to one-shot a Blood Potency 10 Elder?
Uh sure, but I don't really see what that has to do with what I was saying.
>It does a lot more than that.
Yeah I know, my point was that mage 6+ isn't an archamge. They're kind of their own gameline.

>>53189005
Archmages are an altered Template, similar to Tremere Liches.

More of a sub-category than another gameline.

>>53183468
It seems like they did a MUCH better job with C20 than they did with M20, which is awesome. Are Bunks still in there though?

>>53189080
>It seems like they did a MUCH better job with C20 than they did with M20

Best way to play Ascension is to splice 2e and Revised with a sprinkle of M20 on top.

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>>53189080

Bunks are still in, but I don't think they did a great job with them myself, I love the rest of the system however.

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>>53189141

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You guys want to see REAL shitposting?

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>>53189159

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>>53189159
>Pissing on the floor to make Magic easier

>>53189180
Why would you dunk a chocolate chip cookie into mountain dew?

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>>53189194
and yet somehow Changeling still works out like this.

>>53189191
Bunk Examples Modifier Guideline
Loud burp –1
Spontaneous monologue –1
Photobombing a group picture –1
Throwing playing cards in a hat –1
Burning a dollar bill –1
Stuffing a whole cheeseburger in your mouth –1
Casting the cantrip at sunset/sunrise –1
Casting the cantrip at exactly 12:34 –1
Saying the same thing as the target at the same time (Jinx!) –1
Cutting a finger for blood –1
Insulting a stranger –1
Picking a fight –2
Insulting a police officer –2
Streaking in a crowded campus –2
Performing for a large crowd –2
Doing anything that makes people film you with their phones –2
Destroying an expensive item –2
Synchronized movement with target or partner(s) –2
Re-enacting a relevant moment or scene from a movie –2
Using a ceremonial sword in an elaborate ritual –3
Being interviewed on the nightly local news –3
Mooning the jumbotron at a packed football game –3
Juggling chainsaws –3
Getting or giving a tattoo –3
Burning a cherished keepsake –3
Running across a busy street –3
Telling a dark secret to a lover –3
Scattering thousands of dollars in a crowd –4
Getting your picture on the front page of the paper –4
Burning down your home –4
Repeating an elaborate ritual at the same time over 3 days –4
Casting a cantrip just as Halley’s Comet passes overhead –4
Playing Russian roulette –4
Giving a televised speech broadcast worldwide –4
Starring in a viral video with millions of view –4
Putting a mustache on a famous painting –5
Dropping a priceless gem into the ocean –5
Killing a son on the anniversary of his father’s death –5
Standing in front of a speeding car –5
Dueling with deadly weapons –5
Leading an army into war –5
Skydiving without a parachute –5

>>53189248
Okay, NOW I see why people hated this game. You literally have to be That Guy to gain bonuses to magic, what the fuck.

>>53189248

I will however be making sure my players are not fucking retards with their bunks, I'll be explaining that they are ways to ease magic into the world... they must relate to the art being used, they get more points if its obvious, more points the longer it takes, and more points if it just especially fitting...

Like a Sluagh, using a poppet (voodoo Doll) for a bunk that does raw damage to someone.

>>53189268

Again which is why I said the only part they fucked up was lol so randumb bunks.

I as an ST will be running it differently. see
>>53189273

>>53189273
Check out the sample bunks for different arts and realms, those might be a little less lolrandum.

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>>53189297

They do tend to be less retarded.

>>53188872
pls

>>53189392

Torch the Haven during the day.

>>53188872
Lots of fire, during the day, delivered from a distance.
If you can, and you want to risk it, grab them while they sleep, then drag them off to somewhere with no shade before cracking the box and toasting them.

Though really, generally boarding up exits (won't stop then, but will slow them down), liberally applying accelerant across the building, then igniting simultaneously from multiple points, should do the trick.

And hope they're not in a fireproof basement or something.
Because at that point you need to move in with flamethrowers.
Also you'd probably want some monitoring system to try and track any which try to escape with Celerity. However really you could generally just follow the screams as the general population reacts to the flaming, superspeed corpse charred with horrible burns which just ran past them.

To put it simply, unless you have a shitload of resources, it's not going to be clean, and it's not going to be pretty.

>>53189402
>>53189499

Assuming that the police and federal investigations aren't a problem, how effective are bombs? Homemade? Maybe something thermobaric?

>>53189533
If he's paranoid or a few decades old he's going to have it fireproofed

>>53187155
True waifu material.

>>53188276
Always better than mage supremacy shit

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>>53189706
>husbando

fixed

>>53188334
Honestly I'm a magefag and I like this influx of changeling shit. Breaks up the monotony

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>>53187155
>muh super scary entropy dude
>is literally called ass-wad

hahahahhaha

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>>53189779

>>53189779
Because a part from being a magefag you are a normal person

>>53189796
>most of them are just normal people with pointy ears

Missed opportunity.

>>53189824
And?

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>>53189796

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>>53189856

>>53189856
Is that the troll-teacher-lady from the 2nd edition core? I always liked that story.

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>>53189856

>>53189856
Did Rebecca Guay make this? Looks like something she'd make

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>>53189907

It is, and its a great story!

>>53189005
>my point was that mage 6+ isn't an archamge
I think there is confusion between 6+ Gnosis (not necessarily Archmage) and 6+ Arcana (Archmage)

>>53189974
Yes.

>>53189980
So I don't have the book. Are childlings still required to be really squicky young in their real forms?

>>53189763
No, I know what I said.

>>53189995
ooooh. Yeah that could have been what anon was talking about

>>53189763
So handsome

>>53190088
No. Mortal age is actually irrespective of Seeming. You don't even have to START as a childling, and sometimes a grump can become a wilder or even a childling again if he really rediscovers his wonder.

>>53190088
No, Seeming is more a state of mind now, but they never really were in 2nd edition. Childlings in general were supposed to be just pre-teen to early teens, 10 - 13ish... If you played like an 8 year old Childling.... you had issues, and your ST had issues.

>>53187495
Doesn't this make Changelings OP against Demons. Imagine a furry autist otherkin could deduce an Earthbound's true name and command him.