/CofD/ & /wodg/ Chronicles of Darkness and World of Darkness

>>53007774
The church of later day saints.
They have a massive genealogy of each member.
The Tremere think this genealogy is the true name of the entire human species, and want it so they can cast a spell to presumably enslave mankind.

The Tzimisce Ante wants to do something similar, only he thinks the human genome is the true name.

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>>53007772

Kinda like this.

There's something to be said for being a fairly ordinary dude chilling out in the middle of a pit of absolute horror

>>53007880
Thats kind of dumb.

>>53007772
I played a Lasombra, but she was an antitribu who fell in with the Anarchs because her sire had...opinions about the way the main clan was going. On the bright side, with native Potence and a bit of picked-up Celerity, it's surprisingly easy for a Lasombra to claim to be a Brujah when asked, so long as you stay away from mirrors.

>>53007880
what the hell Tremere, everyone is right to hate you

>>53007772
>Have you ever played a Lasombra or a Tzimisce character? What was the experience like?
I played both, I find Lasombra cool, but I'm terrible at playing one though, I'm not good at playing social darwinists.

Tzimisce is great as I could start with only one dot of appearance and get 4 dots for free, and they don't have a horrible weakness.

>>53007880

I was under the impression Tzimisce was dead and his vicisitude-ravaged corpse flooded NYC in time of judgement

>>53007772
Played a Tzim infiltrator, pretending to be Nosferatu beastmaster - once you disfigure yourself to 0 Appearance, people don't even think about questioning what you are. Worked fine, but the chronicle was cut short after couple sessions, so I don't really have any memorable tales.

>>53008359
He is still... aware (not sure what he classifies as anymore) and still plotting (summoning Lambach Ruthven to him so he can be his chronicler).

The genome thing is from Gehenna

>>52979460
You didn't, actually. That's why I prefer how dice work in oWoD and it dovetails with what I previously said. It forces the players to juggle multiple considerations rather than consulting a single, simple, chart or memorized set of values.

>>53007772
Fiend Clan is Best Clan. Degenerate nobility + Freaky ass powers + Classic movie vamp tropes = Pure win.

I ran a fiend in my last game. San Francisco Anarchs rushing to clamp down on a camp of extremists who are threatening to overturn the masquerade. She was un fiend-like in that she was basically in line with Anarch ideology but at the same time, VERY protective of China Town where she made her haven.

>>53008407
I would imagine Tzimisce is disembodied consciousness, akin to Malkavian Madness Network, except still retaining sense of individuality rather than becoming a collective.

>>53007772
My party refuses to play sabbat or anarchs, so no

Too bad, because anarchs are may favourite

>>53007772
Thought this was new Deviant art for a second.

>>53007880
I wonder how to came to this conclusion.

>>53008786
faggot

>>53008786
?

Do you mean how *I* came to this conclusion?

>>53008844
No, i meant
>how did they come to that conclusion
But me brain no work so good

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>>53009173

http://www.strawpoll.me/12861316

>>53009564
Where's the option for "I hope you get stabbed on your way home one evening"?

>>53009564
The obvious answer is the ST's super special self insert OC. Because let's face it, the only time this is ever going to happen is if some grade A autist is running the game.

>>53009588
Fate 3

>>53009564
I wonder which side made this poll.

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>>53009564

>>53009564
>evident way to know just how many cainefags lurk in these threads

>>53008531

But how does that actually improve play? The obfuscation of probability doesn't add anything to the system thematically, and mechanically it only adds on a vague complexity. There's no real psychological benefit, either; it doesn't make the game scarier or the attempt any more dangerous.

If the issue is that players might math out the system, the slight delay in system mastery that might occur with Storyteller as opposed to Storytelling still doesn't justify its jank.

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>>53009564
It only takes six dots to subdue Caine, not sure why people are voting for him.

Must be spite.

>>53009882

Well, most Masquerade players haven't actually read anything Ascension related. You can't blame us for sticking with what we're used to.

>>53009944
I can certainly blame you for being ignorant and biased.

>>53009970

You expect me to research the various ways an archmage could overtake Caine? I can admit it's a certainty, but I will not waste effort or time.

Prime 6
>Strip Caine's access to Vitae and the Disciplines, whilst deleting the seven-fold curse
Correspondence 6
>With three successes; send Caine through space at the speed of light or drone strike him into the Sun's core
Spirit 6*
>Enslave God and continue from there


*assuming he's a Celestine as Apocalypse suggests

>>53010019
Then you don't have a valid opinion.

>>53010124
>Vampire, Hunter and Demon all state that God is far more powerful than a Celestine
>but nah let's go with the furry version of events

why?

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>>53010124

>>53010164
>but nah let's go with the furry version of events

Ascension also has this in spades, anon. The supreme entity according to their cosmological views is an extradimensional collective consciousness; an amalgam of Ascendants.

God is just a facet of what the Chorus preaches.

>>53010159

Hey, I would change my vote if I could!

>>53010208
Then why can't this consciousness be the one to curse Caine?

Before you ask why such an entity would be interested in what a single ape does on a grain-sized planet (to him), the answer is that we'll never know

>>53007880
>human genome is the true name
Nobody better blame the Technocracy for this shit.

>>53010274
>Then why can't this consciousness be the one to curse Caine?

God is definable for what he is, despite being divine in comprehension. What lies outside the universe explicitly never interacts with the material and the mundane, otherwise the Oracles as plot points would be invalidated entirely.

Either you Ascend and 'fuck off', or stay behind and help others achieve what you willingly denied for the better of all, supposedly.

>>53010292
It never ends. This is your home now, get used to it.

What is the best splat for fleshcrafting monstrosities aside from Archmages?

I think the two best might be Tzimisce Vampires with Visccitude and Mages.

Unless you have practise of Entities (which is an Archmage thing) I don't think you can really create that many monstrosities as a Mage. However, you can take control of Spirits/Ghosts/Supernal Entities/Abyssal Monsters/anything that has the Claim manifestation and force it to possess and Claim something. Also you can also summon up personal Goetic Demons from your mind (and some might possibly have the Claim manifestation as well.)

Possibly, some werewolfs with spirit powers could use Spirits to create Claimed monstrosities as well.

>>53010485
>I don't think you can really create that many monstrosities as a Mage

Ummm, no. Life can be all about this. Even more so than the Tzimisce. Life 5 can flat-out Make horrific monstrosities from nothing. Add in Mind and you can give it a consciousness of its own.

>>53010485
Mages with Life 4 can turn a lifeform into any other lifeform they can conceptualise.

Horse into a living hot air balloon made out of skin and bone? Done, just fit it within the scale factor.
Bumbleblee into a 20ft tall duck? Scale factor, and you're fine.
A giant redwood into 20,000,000 wasps? Probably add a reach for a "multiple beings" end result, and you should be fine.

>>53010529
Yeah but can it teleport and breath fire?

>>53010124
>send Caine through space at the speed of light or drone strike him into the Sun's core

Not sure you can do all of that. The speed of light would guarantee an auto-win on anything.

>It's another "fags compare Mage's cosmic powerlevels to Vampire's street-level powerlevels" episode
Why does nobody ever compare shit between Vampire and Werewolf, or Mage and Demon? You know, the stuff that's actually comparable?

>>53010597
Add in Space and Forces, sure.

>>53010622
Because then they'd have flashbacks of Chad giving them wedgies or dunking their heads into toilet bowls :(

Did you play Changeling 2e? How dark did it went? I am planning in doing Changeling short campaing and need ideas to make It totally dark

>>53010597
Add in Spirit 5 to make it part-Spirit, or Prime 4 and either Forces or Space 4 to make it a living imbued creature, and yes.

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>>53010612

>>53010622
Because Mage is the most insufferably arrogant gameline.

>>53010622
Mage and Demon is only comparable until you throw in Archmages.

>>53010830
What were the writers thinking? This is basically the "I win" ability. Three successes is nothing and only mages get access to Correspondence Wards.

Was oWoD metaplot good?

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>>53010983

>metaplot

>>53010949
That archmages are exceptionally rare plot devices?

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>>53010983
It has some pretty great NPCs

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>>53009848
It's not slight. It adds the risk of catastrophic consequences should things go wrong as well as evening out the probability curve for the reasons that I listed here, here and here. It's more gambly and doesn't allow the players to have a complete lock on one aspect of the game. It allows for the possibility of the unexpected much better than nWoD despite that system being more streamlined to run.

>>52974824
>>52975370
>>52975803

As for the jank of the system? They aren't that different. I would like to see Storyteller adopt Storytelling's damage resolution mechanic to speed up combat. That's the only real difference besides the botch mechanic and floating difficulty, really. I'd rather that, for fifth edition, they patch oWoD with nWoD fixes because nWoD is WAY too gamey in how it handles it's mechanics.

>>53011014
Yes, but that's just six dots. I find it annoying. It should be something like ten, not six. You can't fight back against the speed of light.

>>53011055
>You can't fight back against the speed of light.

I bet Caine could. He can do anything.

Aberrant when?

Can mages actually kill the first vampire or is this just theoretical talk

>>53011045

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3c6vDxvOXhQ

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What are your thoughts on the M20 paradigm shift for the mystic Traditions to a more technologically inclusive form? Stuff like a rise in urban shamans, House Verditius using electronics, and the Akashics embracing the Do of the internet. Do you include this shift in your games? Why?

Personally I'm fine with it. I feel like the shift makes sense for Mage in the 21st century. If I'm playing a Hermetic, why would I not want to convert a grimoire into a PDF and share it online for free so Hermetic ideas get spread?

>>53011217
>Kill
That worthless sack of blood ain't alive.

>>53011217
Both.
They can in that the mehcanics are there
It's theoretical talk in that it would never actually happen at a table.
Also it gets kind of weird when you consider oWoD sort of has a canon timeline with its metaplot that ends in one of a few end of the world scenarios.

>>53011217
>Can mages actually kill the first vampire

An Archmage can.
Nothing under that.

>>53011261
>Nothing under that.
Doesn't having the 9 lives merit inherently beat the 7 fold curse?

>>53011239
That stuff was all there in revised and started half way through second edition.

>>53011239
Any move away from "technology is evil" is good to me.
Also it provides more grounds for cooperation or at least mutual non-agression between the Traditions and the Technocracy.

They're still reality deviants who are actively ruining the progress towards an orderly, human-controlled, safe and secure cosmos.
But at least they acknowledge the good that we're doing and aren't likely to just burn our vaccine production facilities to the ground because they're pissy that their crystals and leaves don't work.

>>53011278
That's nine lives, not seven times.

Would be easier to throw out a force exceeding the latter in at least equal measure.

>>53011278
Caine's a vampire, he's already harder to kill, the seven fold curse just makes him basically untouchable

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>>53011305

>>53011217
You first need to ask yourself if Caine is able to defend against an angry universe being thrown at him.

Because that's what Archmages do. Have you taken into account just how big the universe is in comparison to our little itty bitty planet?

>>53011359
>the seven fold curse just makes him basically untouchable

By normal means, you mean.

How the fuck has this been going on for four months?

>>53011381
By normal and most supernatural means.

Yeah you can throw a fireball at him but then you're going to have either

>a fireball seven times bigger thrown your way
or
>suffer a loss equal to 7 times the pain he felt

>>53011239

Makes sense for everyone but the Verbena. They were always the hardcore anti-science trad. But a lot of shit about the Verbs makes no fucking sense.

>>53011359
Depends on the hostility entirely. Mages are experts at subtle and indirect death sentences.

It's not a hard thing to bypass the seven-fold curse.

>>53011424
Even a normie mage could bypass the seven fold curse, but only an archmage is going to be effective.

>>53011424
There is no subtle or indirect death sentence- if you caused his death, both your pawn and you are going to get hit

>>53011476
Not sure if even the seven fold curse is going to penetrate the absoluteness of the contingencies / defenses an archmage can upkeep, as a lot of them don't work based on damage or potency.

>>53011518
No one is talking about archmages.

It's all about normal mages

>>53011363
I think you're overestimating things.

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>>53011291
Very true, but M20 and the post-Avatar Storm books seem to push this further (or maybe its just me).

>>53011305
Agreed, from what I've read that anti-technology bullshit in the first Mage books was terrible. I just wish they'd pull their head out of their asses with the SJW shit. I agree with most of the social/politcal ideas they talk about, but they are just so in love with themselves for being so goddamn progressive. We get it. You went to a liberal arts school. Now tell me how Prime 3 works.

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>>53011570
A gem from the $yndicate book on how the convention views the Hollow Ones.

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>>53011549
Except he/she is correct. Forces 9 is the bending of the entire fucking universe.
The Earth isn't even a grain of sand compared to this capability. Our planet is so small to the vastness that is the cosmos.

It's not something you can win against.

Does anyone have the Digital Web PDF? Mega is lacking

>>53011622
Wtf I love the Syndicate now

>>53011045

But how does that improve the game? WoD's horror doesn't really come from the possibility of the unexpected, at least not in the form that a single dice roll is going to directly create, and despite what you believe, the slight added gambly aspect adds no real tension or interesting mechanical wrinkles.

At the end of the day, it's a small shuffle of the probability that's only a little harder to math out than CofD is in the long run, especially by higher dot levels. If trying to block system mastery is the goal, a player on the Storyteller system still has plenty of options to gain it because you've only blocked off a general 30% chance of success per die.

>>53011634
So why do people suck Caine's dick then?

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>>53011706
Season 19 of South Park touches on the ideas of how the market/neoliberalism co-ops forms of rebellion and feeling good rather than being good with the Whole Foods stuff. Seriously, that whole season is a goldmine for $yndicate ideas. Also just really good in general, definitely recommend it if you haven't seen it.

>>53011622
Wait, are hollow ones leftists or libertarians?

>>53011790

yes

>>53011790

They're nihilists

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>>53011790
They're basically all the bad stereotypes of 90's WoD games. Edgy, using magical trappings with very little understanding or meaning, and just trying to show how smarter they are than everyone else because they're cynics. Think punks, emos, and goths who have read some bullshit pseudo-mystic articles online.

I hate the HO though and I absolutely recognize that I'm biased against them. They do have philosophical ties to romantic and Gothic writers/thinkers, but imo they're just circlejerking to how edgy they all are. Seriously thought they were a joke faction the writers put in to be self-aware.

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>>53011570
Okay, check it out.

This is a game about consensual reality and being able to change the rules. That's just what mages do.

On one hand, the technocracy has a point when they make the argument that sanitation is neat! But it's neat because their paradigm makes it a necessity. If you come at that from the default assumption that we live in a mechanistic universe that always worked on such principles then yes, the Technocracy is objectively correct.

But that's now how the WoD works.

What it comes down to is this: Humanity is in a jail cell. The technoracy is trying to chase the roaches out and get a working toilet. The Traditions are actively attempting to pick the lock when the technocracy isn't looking because if they see the trads attempting a prison break, they'll shiv them.

The traditions hold that being a mage is the default, fully-actualized state of humanity. Yes, what the technocracy provides IS nice but they're a bunch of authoritarian fucks while the Traditions want to bootstrap everyone up to their level which would make the things that the technocracy offers unnecessary in the first place.

This is actually one of the end scenarios in Ascension. Universal, mass-awakening.

>>53011711
I'm sorry, but can you read?

>>52975370

If a system is easy enough to game that there is no challenge in a given arena, and nWoD just is that easy to game, then canny players are going to figure it out and fixed difficulty just makes that easier. It removes challenge and it removes the stakes.

Nowhere did I ever say that the horror of the setting came from the unpredictability of the setting or from the mechanical aspects. I simply said that it provides a upon the players to make it so that they can't run the tables with an almost total guarantee of success. oWoD has checks against that, nWod barely does so. That's why nWoD fails despite all of it's streamlining.

They streamlined the wrong things.

>>53012250
You can game any system checks or not. If your game group is that adversarial you got other issues.

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>>53012250
Yep, I'm familiar with the Traditions's arguments. I honestly don't know which one I would pick, if given the choice. You do a FANTASTIC job of presenting the Traditions argument, but the Technocractic argument is really good too. I'm not even talking about how nice toilet paper, computers, freedom of the press, and the modern economy are, I'm talking about the idea that when you design a grade school class curriculum you have to make sure all the kids learn, not just the smart ones. Granted, many Technocrats could use a reminder of this as well (looking at you, $yndicate), but they are, in many ways, looking out for the little guy.

You wanna be Harry Potter? That's fine, but you going to Hogwarts also means their are terrifying giant nightmare spiders that can crawl out through eyes and eat your children. Maybe we should do away with both the magic wands and nightmare spiders because I don't want my kids to die just so I can cast Wingardium Leviosa.

>>53010634
>>53010812
>Seven Dots: The Practice of Entities
>This Practice allows archmages to grant supernatural abilities to a target, incorporating the nature of an Arcanum into the target’s pattern.

That's Archmage level stuff and not something normal Mages can do.

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>>53011790
It's up to the individual H1. They're a loose confederation of people who awakened the hard way and they have no common paradigm or politics.

>>53011889
While this is true, I still maintain that there is something of value there. There is something that continues to be mentioned briefly and then dropped each time in the published material on the hollowers and I can't, for the life of me, see why the devs never picked it up and ran with it. Each time, they pass on this shit.

The Hollow Ones use their romanticism and their questioning ways to disrupt authoritarian paradigms. They're like guerillas in the war of ideas, causing people to question things that they once took for granted.

This is the hook that they need to fit into the setting properly.

This is a hook that has been dropped multiple times in their own source material as an aside and never been revisited.

It's maddening.

>>53011722
Because they're biased fanboys who have a hard time accepting that their precious Caine is so hugely outclassed.

>>53012402
So are Hollow Ones the precursor to the Free Council or just Apostates?

>>53012353
Yes, you can. But you can't game oWoD to the extent that you can game nWoD. Botches and floating difficulty act as controls that an ST can put on players.

>>53012468
The hollow ones should have been the precursor to the free council. As it stands they're just... there. They're a bunch of self-awakened who clubbed up because OH HOLY SHIT THE MEN IN BLACK ARE A REAL THING AND GHOSTS TALK TO ME WTF IS GOING ON!

While that's a very realistic reason to join together, they don't really have a narrative reason to stay together.

>>53012250

But how does that actually improve the game? There are other, more beneficial ways to achieve system mastery within Storyteller than just mathing out the probablity, which still can be done even with the slight added shakeup of floating target and botch.

So, it's either there for thematic/dramatic purposes (which doesn't work, since WoD's horror isn't necessarily based in unpredictability and in fact asks for greater degrees of competence than other horror games), it's there to be a mechanical wrinkle for players to interact with (which it generally isn't, you can't be too tactical with it on a player's side), or it's there purely for psychological purposes (in which case there's more effective non-mechanical means of establishing difficulty and unpredictability).

You're exchanging mechanical clarity for a nebulous sense of "challenge" and "stakes", something that's not usually established directly by moment to moment dice rolls.

>>53012492

Controls that ultimately mean nothing as soon as the players approach higher levels of play.

>>53010923
Archmages, which are only defined in a book that was rushed out the door and hastily cobbled together even by WW standards for the 90s? I have a feeling that Land of Eight Million Dreams has better quality control, and that book had a likely find/replace or macro issue where someone apparently replaced the term "animism" with the Discipline name Animalism.

>>53011634
Why not post the other levels, before that? Or would those being boring retreads and poorly-considered, out of Sphere concept effects erode your position too substantially?

>>53012596
>But how does that actually improve the game? There are other, more beneficial ways to achieve system mastery within Storyteller than just mathing out the probablity, which still can be done even with the slight added shakeup of floating target and botch.

It's not slight. It actually provides for two more layers of variability while allowing for the size of the dice pool to still matter.

>So, it's either there for thematic/dramatic purposes (which doesn't work, since WoD's horror isn't necessarily based in unpredictability

Okay, seriously. Can you even read the post that you're responding to?

>You're exchanging mechanical clarity for a nebulous sense of "challenge" and "stakes", something that's not usually established directly by moment to moment dice rolls.

Roll a number of dice. Dice that are above a certain number are successes. Dice that roll one take away successes. If no successes are rolled but ones are, then the character has achieved a critical failure.

I'm sorry, how is that not mechanically clear? That's actually pretty simple.

>Controls that ultimately mean nothing as soon as the players approach higher levels of play.

A botch is still a botch and the odds for your dice pool are still the odds in a system that doesn't go above ten dice with the exception of low gen vampires. It's a check at every level of play.

Were you the one who posted... >>52979460 ?
because if you were, thank you for making my point for me. Those tables are as true of characters with 0XP on them as they are of characters with 200.

>>53012393
You really need to read a bit on the Life Arcanum. Archmastery deals with actual Templates, nothing more or less.

Unless Transfiguration.

>>53010923
>Mage and Demon are only comparable until you throw in the absolute most powerful thing from Mage that few to no players will ever actually achieve during a game

Got it.

>>53012878
We're talking Templates. So yes, I am obliged to include the Archmages.

So I heard some shits gone down and OPP is evil shit now? Also that David A Hill Jr and Atmajakki have left? (Yay on the first, not so yay on the latter.)

>>53012907
Atamajakki is a writer? I always thought the guy was just an elusive Mummyfag.

>>53012940
He left because he was butthurt about david leaving, there's a topic about it on the off-topic forum in the OPP forums

>>53011622
The Syndicate: regardless of anything else the Technocracy does, these assholes are the reason I want the Technocracy burned to the ground and the ashes stomped into the mud. Most of the Technocracy is bad in one way or another, but the Syndicate is truly evil.

>>53012738
Not even sure what you're getting at. But MotA was indeed crap. The powers described are quite canon however.

>>53012949
NOOOOOOO who will be our Mummyfag now?

>>53012898
Right, but the point I'm driving at is that until you hit the literal ceiling for power in Mage, those two splats are perfectly comparable, as opposed to how Mages at the lower levels eat Vampires and Werewolves for breakfast.

>>53012982
Who knows, maybe we'll get a new one once Mummy 2e happens in five years.

>>53012960
About as canonical as Dirty Secrets of the Black Hand. If it's dumb shit, I would rather expect it to be put on highly provisional status and eventually replaced or excised.

And MotA was, as you noted, some really, really dumb shit.

>>53012393
Spirit can turn a creature into a half-spirit, at which point it can achieve those results through use of Numina or Influences. Of course it'll revert when the power ends, and it can be dissonanced away, but it still functions.

Furthermore, my Prime option turns the subject into a living imbued item, something DaveB has mentioned as being possible.

Sure you can use the Practice of Entities, which is lasting and not necessarily Supernal in nature, allowing you to create for example new types of Vampires, Changelings or Shapeshifters.

But you can also half-arse it temporarily without Archmastery.

>>53012950
$¥ndicat€ are based

>>53012986
Are you going by CofD here? If so, I'm inclined to agree. Mage, Mummy and Demon are the three strongest gamelines thematically and by intent.

>>53012387
And yet, it's the Technocracy who's ensuring that not everyone is educated. They ensure that only themselves, the "best," have the real scoop on reality while everyone else toils in ignorance.

>>53013047
Yes, exactly. I find it very odd that Vampire/Mage discussion is so prominent in these threads. Really, the most fertile ground for writing a game would be Vampire/Werewolf/Hunter/Changeling (maybe?) crossovers on one end, and Mage/Demon/Mummy crossovers on the other, and ne'er the twain shall meet.

>>53012866
In Mage 2e the two spells that best fit what you want to do are Transform Life and Create Life.

Create Life has the following proviso:

>What a mage can create is limited by little other than her imagination, though truly fantastical creatures are beyond the scope of this spell. She cannot create a winged dragon, for instance, and expect it to fly in defiance of physics.

You can't add Lasting supernatural abilities without Archmagery or lots of cleverness (such as using a spirit to give the creature abilities.)

You can enchant a creature for a limited time but such spells could be dispelled. You could also possibly find or create Artifacts.

Probably one of the more efficient means of giving a creature powerful abilities would be to graft mundane weapons onto it and create some sort of cybermonster.

>>53013047
The three also have minor differences and complimentary differences.

Mage increases in potential
Mummy decreases over time
Demon is a bit of both, depending

Mage is potentially the most powerful of the three, even without getting into Archmastery. But they're still wholly comparable.

>>53013227
Obviously that would be the way from a gameplay perspective.

But from a story perspective, to have a Fallen look on the progeny of the guy who invented murder, or how a mummy reacts to something which they would think is aping them, is incredibly good material

>>53013118
>Educated
When that education involves an understanding that the fundamental nature of reality is fluid and conforms to what it is percieved as, that is fully understandable.

The only way to keep mankind (as distinct from an individual man) safe, is to remove that chaotic element from the equation.
By getting everyone to agree on certain unaliable agreed facts about the nature of reality, a firm basis for the world can be established.

If the world was truly educated and informed on a deep level about the true and horrifying nature of dynamic reality, society and technology would collapse, and Mages would once again have the power to butt-fuck commoners into the dirt without any consequences, while dragons and demons and faries and aliens and shit would burst straight through the Gaunlet and then eat whoever was left.

Ignorance, depressingly, is bliss.

>>53010830
>>53011634

Vomit inducing power wank. The universe shouldn't even exist with such powers being thrown around.
Why are there even vampires on Earth? Forces 9 could just erase them all, period. Not even Caine would survive. Why does existence even exist? A dumb archmage should have stepped on all creation by now.

But you asswipes talk like you believe these are common occurrences. Not even a braindead neckbeardo ST will allow the usage of Archspheres.

>>53012770

But how does that actually improve the game? What does it actually add to the game, other than being a meta check on system mastery that can still be overcome and accounted for? What is actually gained from that in a thematic or a tactical sense that streamlining to a base ~30% per die misses out on?

If Storyteller was more defined in what changing a target number represents and what modifying the dice pool represents, like StoryPath or One Roll Engine does, I could see your point, but Storyteller's take on it ends up being too vague.

You can't criticize one system for being too gamey and then turn around and praise a system for being more "gambly", especially if you only want it there to essentially be a mechanical roadblock.

Entropy 4, Life 4, Matter 4, Prime 6, Forces 9

So would this be enough to erase/cure Vampirism everywhere in the universe? Or just delete them all? Cain and the Antediluvians included?

Could they defend against it?

Oh shit I just thought about it, if david a hill jr is gone NO MORE TOKYO SETTINGS! YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEA!!!

>>53013398
>If the world was truly educated and informed on a deep level about the true and horrifying nature of dynamic reality, society and technology would collapse, and Mages would once again have the power to butt-fuck commoners into the dirt without any consequences, while dragons and demons and faries and aliens and shit would burst straight through the Gaunlet and then eat whoever was left.
But... no they wouldn't, because everyone would be a mage. There'd be no "commoner" distinction. And the Technocracy already buttfucks Sleepers and does jackshit about the various other threats eating at reality.

>>53013434
I wouldn't exactly say that it's very highly regarded.

>>53013540
>Because everyone would be a mage
Not even slightly.
Why do you think the problems with Magic were so significant back before the Order of Reason?
That there is not a consensus enough for any laws to be significantly imposed does not mean everyone's a Mage.

>>53013434
>Not even Caine would survive

Apparently there are people here that honestly believe Caine is able to tank the Big Bang. Which is fucking hilarious. You don't win against Forces 9.

>>53013609
If you're using MotA, no one wins. The game has ceased to be a game, and is now a freeform affair, like a cheap knockoff of Amber.

>>53013609
Vampfags aren't the brightest people. At least not on /tg/ or in LARP.

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>>53013639
MotA is still considered canon as of M20, however. Universe ending spells are entirely a thing, even now.

You can thank Brucato, even though he hates them personally.

>>53013661
>extremely optional
>OPTIONAL

My option is to tell you that you're denied. No Spheres at 6+ for you.

>>53013690
Doesn't actually invalidate anything, but I do agree with you. No Archspheres for anyone if you want a consistent game.

>Mages can do this!
>Mages can do that!
The thing that people always seem to forget is that paradigm is going to hang you up a lot of the time on what you can do. I played Technocrats a lot (different anon than the ones talking above), so I know a bit about what I'm saying.

I couldn't just have my character wave his hands around and say some shit in an exotic language like a damn Hermetic if he wanted to atomize someone. I either needed a tool (which could be lost, stolen, broken, or just not being carried at the time it's needed), or a really damn good excuse to rig up the situation in my favour (like I shine a laser pointer through a bunch of mirrors and improvised lenses, creating something that can blast through a concrete wall). And that's not even getting to Paradox you might have to deal with.


As for the Traditions vs. Technocracy discussion going on. I think part of the problem is that the Traditions don't have enough dirt on their hands as far as they are presented. Vampires, Demons, Werewolves, they're all total fucking jerks to regular humans when it comes down to it. And I'm not alright with the way the Traditions always seem to be the good guys (as a whole). Especially when they're contrasted with the Technocracy who are undeniably the most benevolent of all the antagonist factions, as they do not wish to destroy humanity completely like the Wyrm, Nephandi, or Raveners, or rule over them as sadistic overlords like the Sabbat dreams of doing. Even the "rule the world" faction is opposed by the "help the world" one.

I'm honestly fine with the Techies being the 'bad guys', because there's still enough of an overall greyness to them that I can play what I want when it comes down to it.

And to comment on how they're keeping the best stuff for themselves. Well automobiles, firearms, and airplanes used to be some of those things, and like their clearly stated goals say, after they were all refined enough to work reliably they were introduced to humanity.

>>53013708
Well, if we go down that road, technically Garou and Fera can rip off a mage's avatar and sew it onto themselves because ol' Sam Haight did it, too.

Has anyone ever legitimately attained arch mastery in a game of awakening or ascension?

By late/end game mundane problems are more of an inconvenience than a genuine threat. And that's when you're only a 'mere' second degree master or whatever

>>53013751
He who must not be named.

>>53013751
Sam Haight, you mean the guy the writers still debate over whether he's canon or not? He went against pre-planned lore in spades.

He was literally an office joke originally, until they threw him in.

>>53013809
So you see how it goes with Archspheres, Might as well let metis Garou reproduce, right to the point of knocking up Imbued women. Thanks, Gherbod Fleming, who I think is a pseudonym for any WW writer that wanted to use it!

>>53013809
>Sam Haight, you mean the guy the writers still debate over whether he's canon or not?
HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM

>>53013833
Except the Archspheres weren't an office joke, and are explicitly referred to as canon without any of the office doubt.

The same goes for furry shenanigans.

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Samuel Haight may not be entirely canon, but he's sure as hell fucking hysterical.

Just look at how ridiculous he looks.

>>53013887
looks like most werewolves to me.

>>53013719
>Werewolves
Humans are much, much worse to Gaia than Gaia's representatives are to them.

>>53013939
t. red talon

>>53013852
They were pretty close, since it looks like no one actually wanted to write them. The quality, as noted, isn't exactly very good; you'd have to reject things as a matter of course during play, like most half-done jobs from the era of cranking out books for the supplement treadmill. The rules are, after all, merely suggestions...

(Also, silver ntirate hollow points used to be a thing, but they were dumb and subsequently removed. Of course, some joker tried their damndest to put them back in as poison rounds in W20 BotW, wich don't even work with how the lore says silver works...)

>>53013531
What was wrong with tokyo settings?

>>53013987
Red Talons, who have always been spot on with prophecies, know better than you.

>>53013987
The problem with the Red Talons is that wiping out the humans now would empower the Wyrm too much, but they're not wrong about humans being a blight on Gaia.

>>53014014
It had Japanese people in it.

>>53014014
David A Hill Jr isn't very good at making them without being subtly racist and not knowing enough about the area or culture.

>>53014082
You mean if I spend a good chunk of my life fetishizing Japanese culture. The locals won't rush to embrace me when I spend a couple years fucking around 'teaching' english?

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>>53013887
...what the fuck is this shit.

>>53013887
I thought Sam Haight was still canon, but instead of being a magewolfvampire he's just like...an asshole Skin Dancer or whatever you call Kinfolk who steal werewolf pelts to become actual Garou.

>>53014026
Not in theory, no. Now, it would be difficult to accomplish without a lot of the events that would, but human extinction by itself wouldn't.

>>53014288
in canon he's a ash tray in the underworld and has a skin dancer cult trying to remake him, though I think it was all just fake in their head thing.

>>53014304
That's oWoD.

In W20 he's still alive

>>53014244
The 90s.

>>53014336
Yeah, but he isn't some sort of fucking hybrid monstrosity anymore. They're using his name and status alone, similar to the Tremere in Awakening.

>>53014336
No he isn't man, the first fucking adventure they made for W20 is about him coming back to life and failing

>>53007772

Played a tzimice kuldonic sorcerer, i always felt Masquerade did the whole hunting for arcane knowledge way better than mage.

>>53014373
Specifically, there was a scrap of his hide that came off when he died that contained bits of his memories and possible his self. The antagonist is trying to empower said scrap by sewing it onto himself.

>>53013719
>The thing that people always seem to forget is that paradigm is going to hang you up a lot of the time on what you can do. I played Technocrats a lot (different anon than the ones talking above), so I know a bit about what I'm saying.
>I couldn't just have my character wave his hands around and say some shit in an exotic language like a damn Hermetic if he wanted to atomize someone.

This, so much this. Mage fags always forget that any DM worth his salt is not gonna let you get aways with things outside of your paradigm. And while 90% you will need to be creative to adapt a given effect to your paradigm other times thats a flat no

>And I'm not alright with the way the Traditions always seem to be the good guys (as a whole).

I agree but i do hate even more that now the "good guys" are the super special faction brucatto decided to pull from his ass. "seriously guys, this is like the traditions but better! And even more organic and free of corporations!"


.

>>53014336
>Skin Dancers
>
>One of the most often overlooked threats to the Garou Nation is the
>ever-increasing number of Kinfolk who, driven by feelings of
>inferiority and resentment towards their Garou relations, turn on
>their families. These Kin are motivated by vicious desperation, hungry
>for a birthright they feel has been denied them: the First Change.
>For centuries, Garou turned a blind eye to the discontent of these
>Kin; there was nothing the Kinfolk could do but complain about the
>unfairness of it all. There’s no way for a Kin to become Garou, they
>knew. Gaia alone can create a new shapechanger.
>
>They were wrong.
>
>The first of the Kin to successfully uncover the road to a stolen
>werewolf nature was Samuel Haight, a Child of Gaia Kinfolk whose
>blasphemous discovery earned him the title “the Skinner.” Unsatisfied
>with being denied what he felt was his rightful heritage as a
>shapeshifter, Haight trav- 512eled the world, poring over occult tomes
>and observing trange rituals, searching for some way to seize for
>himself the power of being Garou.
>
>Finally he succeeded. He discovered the Rite of Sacred Rebirth: a rite
>designed for Kinfolk to become werewolves themselves. All that was
>required for the rite to work was the skins of five Garou — and Haight
>got them. Although he was eventually slain, the Skinner’s legacy lives
>on. Several Kin have now managed to steal enough skins to make
>themselves shapeshifters, and they continue to find new recruits and
>teach them their ways. Although connected no tribe of Gaia, they
>nonetheless gather together to gain the strength of the pack, hoping
>to someday attain the full heritage of a true Garou tribe. They are
>the Skin Dancers.

if I was an archmage I would wipe out all mages and myself

it's possible

I would make it so anytime a mage used any sort of magic they would cease to exist

>>53015057
So an Aswadim?

>>53015057
Forces 9 would be mandatory for that. But yes, it would be possible. Probably a Marauder.

>>53015200
>>53015198

okay

in fact I'm doing it right now for all white room discussion in these threads

anytime a mage tries to do something they cease to exist

and I wiped out any prior protection before hand

So I have a kinda weird question but I sort of need to know for a campaign I'm running. What splats can and can't have children? So far I have
Vampires - No
Werewolves - Yes
Mages - Yes
Giests - Yes
But I'm not sure about the others.

>>53013464
>But how does that actually improve the game? What does it actually add to the game, other than being a meta check on system mastery that can still be overcome and accounted for? What is actually gained from that in a thematic or a tactical sense that streamli

It allows me to tailor encounters, combat and otherwise, to the characters skill levels,. Thus providing them with a reasonable chance of success while keeping the outcome in doubt. nWoD lacks complete tools to do this.

>If Storyteller was more defined in what changing a target number represents and what modifying the dice pool represents, like StoryPath or One Roll Engine does, I could see your point, but Storyteller's take on it ends up being too vague.

It represents a more difficult task. The same way that adding or subtracting dice does in nWoD. It's called "difficulty" I don't understand what's clearer than that or why you apparently insist upon throwing random words around.

>>53013464
>You can't criticize one system for being too gamey and then turn around and praise a system for being more "gambly", especially if you only want it there to essentially be a mechanical roadblock.

Well, yes I can, actually. Because those two terms don't refer to the same concepts. Gambly refers to the idea that you can suffer significant setbacks on any attempt to take an action where the outcome is in doubt. Hence, the botch mechanic. Gamey refers to elements that are overtly gamist. oWoD is simulationist with a narrative focus.

>>53015280
Everything can have kids, it's just usally an exception.

Prommies are rare and so are Changelings, but they CAN have kids... Maybe only mummies can't have kids but I haven't seen anything saying they can or can't.

>>53015280
anybody can have children if they have something from one of the rivers in underworld

literally anybody

>>53015232
You probably need to add Prime in there too for that. But it's doable. Can be done for each and every supernatural.

So now that David is gone, is anyone more hopeful for the future of Changeling 2e? Because I'm feeling more hopeful, I trust Rose more than that cunt.

>>53015668
We now got Zack. To be honest I rather have David.

>>53015668
Not at all.
There's neither the time nor the will to go back and change everything shitty that he wrote.

>>53015726
But they'll change some shitty things and that's a bonus as far as I care, they're still in development and with the change of management they'll still be in development for awhile.

Besides they can still potentially do a better job with the future books of the line.

>>53015316

And in what situation would you change a target difficulty and in what situation would you simply subtract or add dice? Which situation is the more difficult task? Why does a game like WoD needs this amount of granularity for as few outcomes that each roll has? This is a lot more busy work for what ultimately boils down to a small difference in being able to guess the outcome. If the difficulties were more defined and separated in meaning from modifiers, things might be different.

And again, this isn't even a very effective means of being a check on your "designated hitter" effect, because of the plenty of other means that one can attain system mastery in Storyteller.

>gamist

Ah, yes, that decrepit game design theory where "gamist" is once again code for "the bad one" and "simulationist" is code for "the good one". It never fails.

Setting aside how useless GNS is for a moment, how is this "gambly" quality not anything but praising a purely "gamist" concept? You're not talking about simulating reality or even evoking a narrative when you talk about why you use it, it's all purely encounters and skill levels.

Ultimately it seems like you're attached to this mechanic for dealing with something that doesn't seem like a huge problem in the long run.

Where the fuck is Signs of Sorcery??

>>53011398

False flagging. A whole lot of it. At this point whenever I see some retarded shit like that, I just hide the post and that removes it from the thread, along with any replies it received. Responding to any of them doesn't work. Telling people to not reply doesn't work. Reporting the posts doesn't work.

>>53015859
It's a Mystery. Dave is currently on the case!

>>53015859
Coming soon, in Fall of 2777!

>>53015884
Could Caine beat up an Archmage?

I'm just curious is all.

>>53015929
You aren't funny.

>>53015790
>Setting aside how useless GNS is for a moment, how is this "gambly" quality not anything but praising a purely "gamist" concept? You're not talking about simulating reality or even evoking a narrative when you talk about why you use it, it's all purely encounters and skill levels.

I literally just told you how in the post that you're quoting.

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>>53015966

If all of us anons were magically transported to a massive battleground as our favorite respective splats, which side would come out as the victors?

>>53015859
It doesn't exist DaveB used our belief as the quintessence to ascend as the iron seal of Mage supremacy.

>>53016118
Mages, because magefags outnumber all the other fags and mages are the strongest.

>>53016125
That cheeky Seeker.

>>53016146
Coming soon the greater Ministry of the Komodo exarch. We got lawnchairs, wizard cocaine, and hookers.

>>53016118
Magefags. Especially the ones here. They're just too fucking obsessed with theoretical wank, which is what Awakening is all about.

We would be absolutely FUCKED

>>53016134
Let's not be nonsensical. Vampfags outnumber magefags three to one.

>>53016266
But not here.

>>53016271
Especially here.

>>53016279
So that's why 90% of the discussion is Mage, and whenever a vampfag or an uppity werefag rears their head they get beat down by multitudes of magefags?

What are you smoking?

>>53016313
Maybe mageposters are just more powerful than the masses of vampfaggots.

>>53016337
Or maybe the vampfags have made their homes elsewhere on forums willing to entertain their delusions.

>>53016220
>>53016266
>>53016271
>>53016279
>>53016313
>>53016337
>>53016376
AscensionFag here. I have exactly zero interest in the whole fucking mage supremacy thing. I was more interested in defending my favorite game from Aspel's retardation back in the day.

But Mage, in both it's incarnations, is just really popular on /tg/

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>>53016279
Magefags definitely outnumber here

>>53016461
>AscensionFag
Stopped reading there. Let go of your dead game.

>>53016562
Hello again!

Don't worry. You'll get an anniversary edition in 2025.

>>53016523
I'm not a cainecunny but vampires literally come from sex fantasy folklore bullshit. There's only one thing they should win at and this is it.

>>53016712
But mages are just better. With Life and Mind they can live out all sorts of sex fantasies or just directly stimulate your pleasure centers.

>>53016461
What did Aspel want to do with Ascension?

>>53016991
Aspel touched Ascension in naughty places.

What are some interesting things I can do with Prime 3, Spirit 3, and Life 2 that isn't being a shitty werewolf?

Ascension, by the way, and I also have the stormwarden merit.

>>53017063
Find your nearest lawn chair and whack a werewolf with it.

Then run away.

>>53012468
They read like a free council/carthian movement but read more like geist krewes or anarchs in a "what the fuck are we, even?" capacity

>>53016523
>Beast not even on the chart

>>53017220
It's for the best that Beast be forgotten

>>53017220
Hmm? What's Beast? Never heard of it.

>>53014465
>I agree but i do hate even more that now the "good guys" are the super special faction brucatto decided to pull from his ass. "seriously guys, this is like the traditions but better! And even more organic and free of corporations!"
Honestly I've only been paying a very minimal attention to what's been going on with the Original WoD for the past several years (always loved it, but before the post V20 revival happened I'd made the transition to nWoD, before drifting away from gaming entirely for a while).

Also I was SERIOUSLY butthurt with the way they decided to do M20. Since as a consequence the Revised Convention books basically became something for a fucking "alternate reality" setting.

But anyway... I think we can generally agree the WoD setting was as much a product of the times we lived in (since the WoD had a satirical side to it), as it was the core themes of the material itself.

>>53015280
>Vampires - No

Well, I know you're talking about CofD, but I feel like I should point out that thin-blooded vampires can have children with humans in VtM... though, it usually ends very, very badly for everyone involved, and most such unions end up with the baby being still-born.

If the child survives, they become what's called a "dhampir" (which is different from the Human/Kuei-Jin crossbreeds known as "dhampyrs").

Basically, a dhampir is a "natural" revenant (a revenant being the offspring of centuries of ghoul inbreeding), in that they can independently learn Disciplines up to the first dot without being blood-bound to anyone (though most only learn physical disciplines or Auspex, largely because they're self-taught), and have a vitae-pool that slowly replenishes itself over time.

Dhampirs are feared, hated and loved by actual vampires... feared because they're an affront to the vampiric condition and a blatant Masquerade violation, hated because they are seen as abominations of the "blood" (especially in the Sabbat), and loved by some because they're a representation that even the undead can bring about honest-to-God life (and thus, maybe, something good and pure).

On the whole, being a dhampir sucks major balls, because you're destined to be a pawn in EVERYBODY'S plans, even the ones who want to protect you.

>>53018038
Wicked Dead book for VtR also has something called Dampyr but I don't have the books on me to check it out

>>53009564
Surprised by the amount of people voting for Caine.

>>53018648
It's a combination of spite voting and vampfag bias

>>53018659
I can see that.

>>53018680
Then you shouldn't be surprised. Vampfags are dumb as fuck and people just hate Mage around here

Everyone vote Caine to piss off the magecucks

>>53018761
They would just laugh.

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>>53018802
Wouldn't be surprised if magefags actually voted for Caine just to spite other magefags

>>53018761
I don't think they care. They're just going to take it as another sign to re-educate us. Again and again and again.

Truly, Aspel was a godsend compared to this travesty of a shitstorm.

>>53018838
There is no "re-education" or anything going on. This are the same people all the time wanking thread over thread over thread over same things.

Can an archmage kill a Solar Exalted?

>>53019311
yes

>>53013434
>A dumb archmage
>dumb
>archmage

I don't know, I think any mage so dumb as to try vulgar shit like that would have been wiped off the ass of the Earth by Paradox long before reachign archmastery.
Admittedly I don't really know mage/archmage's options for dealing with instantaneous backlash from highly vulgar castings if there are any.

>>53019387
Well, at the very least I doubt a dumb Archmage would reach Forces 9. Hell, I doubt a dumb Mage could even become an Archmage, period. It's not something every mook and their grandma can achieve.

>>53013751

He was a Kinfolk Ghoul who stole Voormas' staff and used werewolf skins to become a werewolf.

And now he's an ashtray.

So ignoring werewolf the apocalypse and it's weird origins, the general gist of OWoD's cosmology is:

- God banishes the abyss and starts creating reality where what he says goes because dude's a freaking god.

- Angels are made and they're actually weird manifestations of the concepts of reality with a consciousness.

- Humans are made and it turns out that collectively they might have the power to actually rival god because they run off of consensual reality rules.

- Divide among angels about what to do about this with some remaining loyal to god and others following lucifer to rally against their creator.

- Their "war" is basically just debating with one another and autistically yelling at one another to begin with.

- Along comes Caine and he invents murder by accident introducing an entirely new way to deal with problems into reality.

- God is pissed and punishes him with vampirism and the three fold curse. Lucifers angels are stoked because now they have a new and really effective way to "beat" the loyalists.

- Fuckhuge war in heaven, demons exploit humans and their consensual reality bullshit to eat on faith and make their moves against heaven.

- Still, god and angels win and send all of lucifers angels to the abyss to get fucked.

- The corpses of some of the angels get reborn in certain humans and these humans are far more aware of how consensual reality works and can directly tap into that sick ass mojo.

Anything big I miss?

Can someone remind me why the Gangrel defected from the Camarilla en masse?

>>53019532
Cause they shouldn't have been there in the first place.

In game reason though is that they didn't agree with the Camarilla's rejection of the idea of the antedeluvian's.

>>53019490
You missed a lot.
You're also interpreting a lot.

The oWoD cosmology contradicts itself on many an occasion.

>>53019490
Some of the details are mixed up but the broad strokes are there.

A lot of people thought the "avatars are bits of angels" shit was dumb though.


Also Mages and their exact level of awareness when it comes to how consensual reality works is complicated. Their paradigm is their belief structure about how the world works, and their will along with their avatar is what allows them to force the world to play by those rules.

It's not until one becomes an Archmaster that they truly become aware of how their paradigm was actually constraining their power, and are able to 'break out' of it.

>>53019490
Here's the oWoD cosmology.
> According to Mage reality has been shaped by belief at varyinbg moments in history according to the general consensus, with multiple versions simultaneously being real according to from who and where and how much they were believed in
> Everything has been real and not real simultaneously

>>53019581
>A lot of people thought the "avatars are bits of angels" shit was dumb though

Why?

>>53019581
It was actually Avatars being shards of God, anon. But 'God' to mages isn't the same 'God' that cursed Caine. It's something beyond that.

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>a Tzimisce that isn't a disfigured monster

What a surprise.

Then again, this is the guy who got fucked up by Vlad Tepes, back when he was still just human.

>>53019629
That seems like a needless division on "God". Why wouldn't it be the same God?

>>53019709
Why would it be the same god?

>>53019806

Because in both instances it's called god and I've not really experienced anything to say they are not the same?

>>53019806
Because it would make a tighter link in the otherall story between Mage, Demon and Vampire?

Because when omnipotent and omniscient is the hallmark of a Caine and Lucifer's god why would you need to invent another layer above that for Mage's god?

File: owod_vampire_dark-ages_template_tzimisce-3.jpg (732KB, 1160x1635px) Image search: [Google]

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>>53019694
I think that "fleshcraft to a monster" was always more a Tzimisce stereotype than anything else. Especially in modern nights. it also goes hand-in-hand with a Vykos and making the clan easily hateable as villains for your story blatantly opposing the Masquerade.

>>53019911

What book is that template from? Took a peek in the 2ed and Revised for Dark Ages and couldn't find it.

>>53019841
>>53019878
But is it confirmed to be that god, or implied or what?

>>53019955
Libellus Sanguinis, I think. First book.

>>53012492
Just slap huge negative die mods or high success thresholds on your players if you think they are winning too easily against a certain threat.

Or have the things they are rolling opposed checks against have bigger die pools.

Variable target numbers in oWoD was just a bad system because it makes figuring out the expected value of a die pool annoying. Not impossible, just annoying.

>>53019975
Yes, thats where the whole avatars being the shards of god plot point comes from in Demon the Descent

>>53019998

Yep, that's the one. Thank you.

>>53019911
>implying anyone would play something like that except to make a special snowflake

in all my years of roleplaying I've noticed tzimisce always attracted a specific type of player, mainly those who want license to be evil and kill indiscriminately.

>>53020091
What do you mean by "something like that?"

>>53020091

Not him, but I've played a Tzimisce who wasn't out to be some kind of inhuman monster that was intent on breaking the Masquerade and enslaving humanity. Had a few ghouls of my own that I took very good care of, always maintained a clean and tidy haven, and never killed or tortured senselessly. You don't have to really go along with the stereotype of edgelord Tzimisce if you don't want to. You can be a monster even without that.

>>53020091
Tzimisce, Lasombra, Ravnos, Assamite and Giovanni were a mistake.

Ventrue already do what the Giovanni, Tzimisce and Lasombra do.

Assamite could have been cool if they weren't all just arabs and were more like a respected impartial judge clan.

And the Ravnos are just shitty gangrel with a cool power that should have been a blood sorcery instead.

>>53020066
Wait, it doesn't even come from a Mage book? So is it actually the explanation of just what Demons think it is?

>>53020144
There was definitely some duplication going on as they realized they'd need clans filling the same niches in both Camarilla and Sabbat.

I was going to roll a Tzimisce in the current game my group is doing, but ended up rolling something more stereotypically Toreador because we were supposed to be a gang that owned a nightclub and no one had made an actual nightclub owner of a character.

The idea for her was that she was just a bodymod artist that the local Tzimisce thought would translate into a great crafter of war-ghouls when given the tool of Vicissitude.

She was pretty into goth and satanic stuff, so she ended up accidentally joining an actual sociopathic murder cult and being stuck with being a vampire.

The story is set in 80s Miami and the Sabbat run Cuba, so she was going to have been from Cuba and have fled to Miami because just being into crazy piercings and the emerging American thrash metal scene does not make one assign zero value to mortal human lives.

I even had a cool idea of describing how she uses the bones of her forearms and ribs to form tools with which to do fine detail work on her clients.

>>53020158

Does not coming from a mage book make something less true?

Demon: The Descent demons had control of the fundamental conceptual building blocks of reality.

>>53020144
>>53020166
my problem with the lasombra is they're the type of clan that should have by all rights been severely diminished or even gone in modern nights considering they relied heavily on the church. not to mention by got their shit kicked in in al-andalus.

>>53007772
I fucking hate both the clans, but I did play a Tzimisce character that was pretty cool.

He has effectively a "dirt salesman" who was responsible for managing the prep of some major international sabbat events as well as helping out sabbat packs that roamed, always making sure his clan had access to the soil they needed at all times.

>>53020182
>Does not coming from a mage book make something less true?
It makes me less inclined to take it seriously. Like how I wouldn't take it very seriously if an Awakening book claimed that vampires were created by the Psychopomp.

And you didn't answer my question, does the book state that's what happened or just present as what Demons think happened?

Is there a chronicle for VtM where a group of players could go and kill Lilith? Something about her just pisses me off. If there's not, I'll probably end up writing one myself.

>>53020144
>Assamite could have been cool if they weren't all just arabs and were more like a respected impartial judge clan.
You mean exactly like they were depicted in their Revised Clanbook?

>>53020296
She is stronger than Cain, maybe even stronger than God himself

>>53020182
Okay stop.

Demon: The Descent is fucking New WoD.

Original WoD, Demon: the Fallen, was something entirely different.

>>53020158
And you, stop being an ass just because it doesn't come from a Mage book. 'Mage God' is the same fucking YHWH that's cited throughout the rest of the setting.

>>53020144
>Tzimisce, Lasombra, Ravnos, Assamite and Giovanni were a mistake.
You forgot Followers of Set, and you can fix Giovanni by turning them into Capadocius.

>>53020349

>Lilith
>stronger than the man who invented Murder
>let alone stronger than the entity that cursed Caine to begin with

Lilith, what are you doing here? Shouldn't you be stuck in your garden, sulking about all those dead kids of yours?

>>53020360

You are correct. I fucked up.

...man I wish Demon: The Fallen had a nWoD sequal. I found it much cooler than Descent.

>>53020377
It was Lilith who gave Cain powers to begin with

You should read Revelations of the Dark Mother

>>53020377
>Lilith
>The reason why disciplines even exist in the first place
>Possibly an archmage, lets not open that can of worms

>>53020322
Kind of, the damage was already done by then though and you still have all the fluff of being tied to Islam and their secret middle eastern base and in general they recieve no respect from any of the other clans because they were insular and engaged in constant diablerie.

>>53020384

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't DtF pretty much happen near the end times in oWoD? Bit little timespan to play in, isn't it?

>>53020403

>you should read Lilith's propaganda


>>53020406

I'm not disputing that Lilith taught Caine the Disciplines. For all intents and purposes, she awakened him, but he can still murder her 1 on 1.

>>53019490
If you're trying to understand oWoD's cosmology expanded to all the games comprised in it, why would you ignore an important part of the line?

Either take all or take none, there is no middle ground

>>53019532
A group Gangrel led by a Justicar fought a group of Sabbat and in the meantime encountered an Antideluvian, then realizing that the Camarilla was fooling itself he up and left with the majority of the clan, becoming indipendent

>>53020433

>Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't DtF pretty much happen near the end times in oWoD? Bit little timespan to play in, isn't it?

It got printed right at the end, yeah. Which really sucked for it not getting a new version in nWoD.

>>53020452

Wait, what? Which Antediluvian they did meet and how the fuck did they escape alive?

>>53020434
Not that guy, but Werewolf players were the Magefags of their day, way back. Taking a perverse pleasure in explaining how the other settings were inferior by demonstrating how they fit into the cosmology of the Triat somehow.

Which amused me to know end when Demon came along and basically said, "Gaia was probably an Angel who changed into something else after sticking around Earth too long".

Backed up by the fact that unless they're deep into Torment, some Houses of demon will show as having Wyld or Weaver taint instead of the Wyrm. While Slayers who've managed to purge most of their's will have an aura of 'purified wyrm'.

>>53020372
Followers of Set are actually one of the better clans.

They're Gnostics who subsume whatever religion they can as they spread out to share the message of breaking down whatever ties you to this world and to worship a vampire god. The whole egyptian motiff is just because that's where the OG Setites started but you've got ones in the Aztecs, the Norse mythos, Christianity, The Greco-Roman.

Also yes the cappodocians are much better.

>>53020360
>Okay stop.
>Demon: The Descent is fucking New WoD.
>Original WoD, Demon: the Fallen, was something entirely different.

Sorry it was a mistype. I meant Fallen.

>>53012950
>Not wanting better living through anarcho-capitalistic post-humanism

>>53020485
Personally, I'd say that angels are a type of empowered Weaver spirit that possibly had captured Wyld essence (akin to the Dream Makers, Wyld/Weaver creator spirits that were later corrupted by the Wyrm) that were used to build a pocket Tellurian that would remain in constant order, as opposed to the crappy, disordered real Tellurian. Except it was screwed up by Lucifer and the rebels, which might have been the real thing that drove the Weaver mad.

>>53020461
It's unknown which antideluvian they met, and it was probably sleeping at the time, or otherwise in a condition that not allowed it to be a threath, but also made them unable to destroy it, since it's not stated that they actually killed it, only that thei encountered it

In all truth, it's not explicitly stated that they met an Antideluvian, only that they found "something", but since the reaction of most Gangrel in the camarilla, it's highly probable it was an Antideluvian

>>53020704
>>53020461

I was wrong, apparently, a bit more of reserach stated that the Gangrel fought a thing called the Eye of Hazimel, a sort of living eye who either belonged to the Ravnos Metuselah Hazimel or to Ravnos himself, with the power to kill and mutate everything it entered in contact with, possessing the body of a Tremere antitribu during the siege of Atlanta

The Justicar leading the Gangrel, a faggot called Xaviar, believed it to be an Antideluvian, but when the Camarilla rebuffed his suspicions, he up and left with the majority of the clan

File: Victorian - Companion 1.png (3MB, 1342x1773px) Image search: [Google]

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Victorian Age Vampire had some decent artwork.

>>53020144
Tzimisce and Lasombra are cool.

Ravnos fucking shits got BTFO, week or nightmares best week of my life.

Assamites are boring IMO.

Cappadocians are infinitely more interesting than the Giovanni
>>53020197

>been severely diminished or even gone in modern nights considering they relied heavily on the church

Maybe that's why they're concentrated in Mexico and south america

>>53020296
Gehenna.

Be prepared though, she's backed by a whole pack of antes and Methuselahs

>>53021246

>antes and methuselahs
>wanting to kill Caine

Why?

>>53021232
>week or nightmares best week of my life
But that was shit anon. Spirit Nukes are stupid. But yeah, Ravnos deserved it.

>>53012950
Hey, most of the Technocracy hates the Syndicate too.

>>53021257
Why wouldn't they?

You'd probably be pissed off as well after 10 millennia or something, plus you can always diablerize him

>>53021289

If they know about Caine, they probably know about the 7 fold curse that God placed on him as well. So who from the Vampire splat would think confronting Caine head on was a good idea, not to mention the delusion that they'd live through it. Wasn't it pretty much talked about in one of those what if chronicles that Caine could make up new Disciplines on the spot? Everyone else in the Vampire splat doesn't stand a chance against him.

>>53021289
>plus you can always diablerize him
I don't think so, he is not a vampire, and even if you could, the 7 fold curse would fuck you AND he probably will take control of your body

>>53021431

Nothing "probably" about it.

Consider that only Cappadocius was diablerized, but even then, the Giovanni didn't manage to devour his soul. Lasombra allowed his "diablerie" to happen so he could then move onto the Abyss, Saulot still wormed his way back to the living, though no idea why it took so long, Tzimisce faked being diablerized and... I have no idea what happened to the other Antediluvians. Seriously,where are the Toreador and Brujah Antediluvians?

>>53020505
Why is Descent so good?

>>53021767
there's something hilarious about the fact that sabbat, sect built on BREAK THE ELDERS' CHAINS, got bamboozled hard in both of their greatest victories.

>>53021862

And there's doubly something hilarious about the Camarilla denying the existence of Caine, the 3rd Generation and their childer, while continuously manipulated by all those mentioned above.

>>53021818
For me:
>morality system that helps you simulate someone who has no human morality to speak off
>being good at being spy game with is something rarely done
>divorcing itself from religion while still keeping some trappings of religious horror
>paranoia and oppressiveness that god-machine evokes
>look I just want to posses a car and run people over sue me

File: VtM 20 - Children of the Revolution.png (1MB, 688x878px) Image search: [Google]

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Totally not LaCroix.

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>>53007772
>Have you ever played a Lasombra or a Tzimisce character? What was the experience like?
Was a fun ride.

>>53022208

>The Darkness

I forgot about that comic. Did it ever get a proper ending or did it just drag on?

>>53022226
Fuck if I remember. I believe it didn't. Also brought in the Witch Blade shit.

I stopped caring about it a decade ago

>>53015884
Fuck. I've been trying out various filters this whole time but 4chanx recursive hiding would work a lot better wouldn't it?

>>53022279

>>53015668
There's some nice new stuff also being added in with the new management, such as being able to play Goblins and Goblin Queens.

I think they are also picking and choosing what to keep from Hill's version.

>>53021367
>Wasn't it pretty much talked about in one of those what if chronicles that Caine could make up new Disciplines on the spot? Everyone else in the Vampire splat doesn't stand a chance against him.

This happened when the withering was in full effect

>If they know about Caine, they probably know about the 7 fold curse that God placed on him as well.

Maybe they're so old they just don't care, or have gone mad
>>53021431
>not a vampire

Since when?
>>53021767
Toreador is napping in Greece, brujah was either diablerized by troile or managed to hurl himself into the time stream, a la samurai Jack
>>53021959
There's a suggestion on Gehenna that that whole shtick was a ploy to fool the antes and that they've been stocking up on weapons the whole time

>>53020485
>While Slayers who've managed to purge most of their's will have an aura of 'purified wyrm'
What is purified Wyrm even? Haven't read much of werewolf