/CofD/ & /wodg/ Chronicles of Darkness and World of Darkness

http://www.strawpoll.me/12764524

Why are we using this image? From what I've seen it been mostly false flag magefags that shot up our threads. I know the more recent vampire conversation have been civil.

>>52747719
Because Magefags have nothing in their life but winning powerlevel discussions so they have to make every thread about that.

>>52747506
I'm not worried about us seeing 2ed but more about how long will it take. I hope they won't have to rewrite half of the book from scratch

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Got a VtM20 game going on in the 30s. What are a few good supernatural hooks in pre-war Nazi Germany?

>>52747776
Masquerade players have had similar tendencies from my experience. Requiem not so much.

>>52747826
Pre-WW2 has a lot of crossover potential. The stereotype around Nazi occultism etc, it's a gigantic grab bag.

Be creative.

>>52747848
From what I see rivalry from VtR perspective is against VtM not against other splats.

>>52747860
Oh trust me, I got a lot of decent shit tied to the Nazi party, bunch of tremere sneaking into Himmler's circle, etc. Just the day to day stuff about how werewolves and the like are dealing with an increasingly restrictive society that may or may not be the beginning of a Camarilla/Sabbat proxy war.

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ARCH
MAGES
CAN'T
KILL
LUNA

>>52747910
You're no better than the magefags at this point.

>>52747927
It's because it is a magefag that wants to stir shit because self wankery

>>52747936
That's no excuse. Better to just let it go.

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>>52747927
>>52747936
or maybe it's just occam's razor

>>52747826
This might be more 1920's germany but it's good to play through the problems of the Wiermer Republic to get a good idea of how things escalated.

- Paramilitary Group exist and have a lot of personal power.
- A lot of the Colonial forces of Germany being forced to come home following the Treaty of Versailles
- Berlin is one of the most "Red" places in europe
- Rehabilitation centres that were established are basically turned into organized crime syndicates with rampent prostitution everywhere
- Potential french kindred influence in parts of Germany lile the Rhur
- Occultism has become a very fashionable hobby
- The arts have more prestige than the sciences at the time and a lot of very provocative art is coming into the forfront of entertainment.

Man, the quality of art in VtM and VtR varies a lot. Sometimes, a book will be filled with really great looking stuff. Other times, it's like the worst scribbles you have ever seen. And let's not even mention the laziness with the photoshopped photographs.

>>52747860
>>52747889
>Pre-WW2 has a lot of crossover potential.

Nazi mages. Everyone hates Nazi mages, particularly Seer Nazis, although Nazi mages were well represented in the Pentacle.

Heck, they're even worse than those money-loving Libertines!

>>52748052
>Nazi mages

But anon, surely if the Nazis had mages, they would have just turned FDR, Stalin and Churchill into lawnchairs and won the war :^)

>>52748041
Yup photographs are probably the worst stuff in the books. How did anyone thought this is a good idea?

>>52748052
This is Owod20 from what I understand. In Owod from what I've seen Technocracy supported nazi germany

>>52746509

Since the last thread quickly ended, I just wanted to re-raise my earlier question: What Awakening books have information on the lesser ministries of the Seers of the Throne?

I'm particularly looking for more information on Seers who deal with the Psychopomp and Death.

The Seers book very vaguely mentions the Lesser Seals like the Psychopomp as Exarch of Death, but provides no other substantive information on it or its associated lesser ministries and doctrines of fear and oppression. It seems that the Chancellor is the only "lesser" Exarch that has received any significant attention, with both the Mammon and Pantechnicon Ministries.

Is information available about the other Lesser Seals and Ministries in any other Mage supplements or maybe expounded upon by DaveB in blogs posts or comments?

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>reading that RPS interview with Dracula
>mentions that "Of course, our werewolves are nature’s vengeance. They are the immune system of the planet and the plot point we’re at with them is that they’re thinking of restarting the Impergium. That is where we are."

Jesus fucking Christ, how the fuck would that even work in modern day? I figure, much like with vampires, if humans collectively turned their ire against them, they'd get fucked sideways.

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>>52747506

>>52748071
>>52748052

Nazi mages were definitely a thing in Awakening, and discussed in Mage Noir (written by DaveB).

Nazi mages were one of the cause of the schism between the Silver Ladder and Free Council. The FC were angry that the SL were rescuing Nazis, and the SL were enraged that the FC were rescuing Seers from Pantechnicon.

Also, there are the Daksha, the androgynous, mage-supremacist Mysterium legacy who supported the Nazis, and are little better today.

>>52748151
The 90s were a mistake.

>>52748155
Why did the FC rescue seers? They hate the seers to an almost irrational level.

>>52748151
Are they fucking kidding?
The Impergium.
In a world with nuclear warheads?

>>52748188

Yeah, and he talks like how some of the Garou want to go to war with humans, just to see if we can survive. Oh and of course the Black Furies won't help humans until we "sort out our gender rights".

Here's the interview, it's from February this year:

https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2017/02/10/white-wolf-world-of-darkness-rebirth/

>>52748151

Hopefully, our friends in the Technocratic Union will exterminate those hairy Reality Deviants with the anger control issues.

I thought this Gaia-worshipping nature immune system crap was squashed by Control well by the before the turn of the century.

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>>52748151
>>52748188
IMPERGIUM GOOD
WE WILL SAVE PLANET
DIE HUMAN PIGDOGS

>>52748155
Alright looks like I need to take a look at Mage Noir. Sounds interesting enough

>>52748201

Seriously, the more they talk about this new shit they're going to push out for the next iteration of the World of Darkness, the more I'm actually keen on siding with the Technocratic Union as they seem to be the only sane bunch, even with all the shit they've pulled.

>>52748200
Elricsson is absolutely ludicrous if he honestly believes the Garou are capable of exterminating humanity, especially with the Union and Pentex effectively running the world.

He probably hates Ascension, if I had to make a wild guess. Or he hates Apocalypse and wants all the dogs to die out in a suicide mission.

>>52748175
>The 90s were a mistake.

SwedeDracula is a mistake, or at least a man-child with delusions.

>>52748151
Wait, what's this about? Are they re-rebooting oWoD?

>>52748298

Yeah, moving Gehenna back (for about a century or so), because what the fuck would be the point?

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>>52748183
>Why did the FC rescue seers?

It's complicated, and Mage Noir is definitely worth a read. The Seers were supposedly reformed, and the FC was willfully blind and stupid. The only order who didn't really fuck-up too badly in WWII was the Guardians.

Here's the tidbit on Operation Oracle from Mage Noir.

>>52748052

Only the Free Council were Nazi-free (and that's like saying "every proto-FC Nameless Order refused the Seers' offer". It's only true because the exceptions were immediately kicked out.

All of the Diamond Orders had Axis-supporting members. The Mysterium were particularly bad for it.

>>52748322
I'm not well versed in MtA but reading this threads is looks to me like Mysterium are the biggest douches in awakened community

>>52748310
I still don't get gehenna.

You have 13 vampires who have been alive for 10's of thousands of years with some even being active only 1000 years ago. Why is it just NOW that them being awake is going to destroy the fucking world.

>>52748322

The Free Council rejected the Nazis, but saved Seers. That just seems monumentally stupid and inconsistent with their asserted beliefs.

>>52748343
>Mysterium are the biggest douches in awakened community
But isn't that why we love them so much?

I wonder what Dave's favorite Order is? Among the Paths I seem to recall him being partial to the Thyrsus.

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>>52748310
Why? It's probably going to be utter garbage, and I can't imagine anyone who actually likes the oWoD setting to like the neutered, gender-neutral politically-correct version of W:TA.

Better cut Silent Striders, they make light of the gypsies. Better cut Bone Gnawers, they romanticize the plight of the poor people.

Stargazers? Shipped right the fuck out, because we can't have problematic white people appropriating Eastern philosophies. Utenka and Wendigo? Ooooh no, we can't talk about the injuns anymore.

Fianna is okay because fuck white people amirite? Lol drunken McO'Connors in kilts xD.

And the Black Furies aren't sexist with their KILL ALL MEN dogma because women are an oppressed minority. Children of Gaia will probably go full on SJW since liberal progressivism is the equivalent of hippies.

Oh, and we'll have to cut Lupus. Wouldn't want anyone thinking they could have SEX with a SENTIENT ANIMAL. That means no Red Talons (yeah, we know this is about the Impergium, but, that's BAD! Red Talons are BAD!). And treat the Metis nicer, it's not nice to marginalize people based on the circumstances of their birth. In fact, Metis are now the chosen ones, the product of Gaia's sacred unions! Yeah! That sounds good.

>>52748361
Dave is more than likely a Seer supporter.

>>52748322
Please tell us that the Mysterium were like the Nazis from Indiana Jones.

This is now canon.

>>52748322
>>52748357

>DaveB
>No published information on Lesser Seals or Ministries besides the Chancellor and Mammon and Pantechnicon.

Dave, any chance we'll see some more info on the Lesser Seals and Ministries in Signs of Sorcery? Since the book deals with the Supernal, Exarch info definitely should be included.

>>52748377
Supporter? You shut your whore mouth Pentacle shill. You are talking about Komodo Exarch

>>52748344
The idea was one getting up hungry, eating a nation, yanking on all of a clan, would be enough activity to shake more awake and it would all domino and go worse faster.

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>>52748377
>Dave is more than likely a Seer supporter.

Dave is not a Seer supporter, he's an Exarch.

Worship the Komodo, or suffer his wrath!

>>52748408
>>52748419
>Dave an Exarch

That's just a rumor. You have no proof!

>>52748344

>Why is it just NOW that them being awake is going to destroy the fucking world.

Because there was a shitton of people thinking that the turning of the century was going to be the end of the world, one way or another.

>>52748376
http://fta.darcness.net/wiki/index.php/Applications:_Werewolf
hate to say it but people did that with the W20 releases. tha game is dead now but this kind of thinking is already out there.

>>52748441
>Exarch DaveB
>That's just a rumor. You have no proof!

Are you blind? We see his oppression everywhere in /wodg/.

We play the games with rules that don't make sense and supplements that never come, yet we want more and more.

>>52748476
It's not true IT'S NOT TRUE

>>52748441
Look into your heart! You cannot deny it!

>>52748495
Look deep into your soul, anon.

You know it to be true!
Accept DaveB into your life

>>52748505
>>52748511
Holy fuck you DaveB fangirls are like fucking clones.

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>>52748462
> Black Furies are about feminism, and feminism is not about hating men. Feminism is about equality for women, and that means disassembling the patriarchy, but not hating men

> Asian people have often been the targets of racism and oppression. There are still people alive today who were forced into internment camps here in the United States during World War II.

> White Wolf's treatment of the Rom is very problematic, all of their games serves to reinforce the romanticized "gypsy" stereotype. If you want to make a Silent Strider, please do not draw on that portion of the Silent Strider lore.

> Literally nothing about the stereotypes of the Fianna.

Holy fuck. I wonder why people didn't want to play at that game. :^)

>>52748521
>Holy fuck you DaveB fangirls are like fucking clones.

>Humor impaired.
>Likely Beast fan

I bet Dave is even disturbed by your devotion, magefaggots.

>>52748521
For we have seen the truth. On your knees for the Komodo Exarch!

>DaveB posts in thread

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vj1Whqhfqas

>>52748542
>>52748552
Why do you hate DaveB? He brings nothing but joy and lizards.

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>look up dracula interview
>see this
what did they mean by this?

>>52748376
>Children of Gaia will probably go full on SJW since liberal progressivism is the equivalent of hippies.

That came way before W20 though

>>52748916

Hopefully, the Glass Walkers will make The Garou Nation Great Again.

>>52748376

I swear to god, you guys that whine about "SJWs" are 20x more annoying than the PC bullshit itself.

Onyx Path is a struggling company with a certain fan base. They need to either pander to that fan base or close up shop. If they piss off the furries and the unwashed goth wiccan femynists and all those people, they'll be out of business within the week.

If you want to use the controversial stuff that was in previous editions, no one is stopping you. Go ahead and name your chronicle "Nazi Wolf Gypsies Eating Nigger Babies", it's fine. But it's not like Onyx Path has a lot of choices on this issue—they have a hell of a lot of easily triggered customers, and not a lot of leeway in terms of alienating any part of their tiny market share.

>>52748929
My good chap Garou Nation always sucked

>>52748930

Then how come the Tribebook: Children of gaia revised isnt regarded as the highest quality of gaming literature by the sycophants on the OPP forums?

>>52748968

You misunderstand me. They don't need to *please* the retards, they just have to avoid pissing them off. Big difference.

>>52748930
Where on earth do you think all these "easily triggered customers" come from? Because I'd like to know. I've been out in Portland, OR for years now and I've never seen any public game start up for World of Darkness.

I did manage to find one Werewolf game through word of mouth, run by those new-age hippie kind, and they were the most egregious of the bunch, playing overtly gypsy-like Stiders, medicine-men Uktena, and the rattiest, bummiest of hobo Bone Gnawer. (in Downtown Portland! It's full of them)

Most easily-triggered furries I know play shit like Pathfinder (or Ponyfinder or Pathfurry or whatever subgenre they come up with) and the unwashed goth wiccans are playing their unwashed goth wiccan game: Vampire. Not even V20. They're using the same old ratty books they were using in the 90s. Most of them don't even touch the books, recycling the same characters they've been playing for nearly 30 years now.

>>52748930
>I swear to god, you guys that whine about "SJWs" are 20x more annoying than the PC bullshit itself.

Listen to a few more rants on Youtube, that'll cure you of that.

>>52747506
>Is Changeling 2e having a midlife crisis? Is it still even alive?
Yes and yes. David Hill quit and decided he's never writing for OPP again, so they're reworking it with new developers. It's still going to come out, but it'll look significantly different and it'll be coming out much later.

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>>52748916
>>52748929
W20(17)

>Black Fury Ahroun, antifa by day, cashier by night. Wants to smash the patriarchy, bash the fash, and demands equal pay (despite being paid the same as her coworkers).

>Glass Walker Ragabash, a white male who has checked his privilege by driving the pack around in his 1992 Geo Metro (complete with Bernie 2016 and I'm With Her stickers).

>Bone Gnawer Galliard of Color, master of social welfare programs, finances the pack's endeavours through generous food stamps and cheap Section 8 housing.

>Child of Gaia Kinfolk, demi-auspice trans-garou, believes she can do anything a cisgarou can and hopes that one day the Garou Nation will develop rituals to spark her First Change

These super-friends fight against the evil PENTEX (Plan to Elect Neo-con Trump EXecutives) Corporation, who have now seized control of the White House, and bring Gaia one step closer to the Apocalypse.

>>52748322
>>52748354
>The Free Council rejected the Nazis, but saved Seers. That just seems monumentally stupid and inconsistent with their asserted beliefs.
Yeah, this never made sense to me. When, why, and how exactly did the group with "Kill Seers on sight" turn that into "accept Seers into our Order en-masse"?

>>52748343
>I'm not well versed in MtA but reading this threads is looks to me like Mysterium are the biggest douches in awakened community
It's not so much that the Mysterium themselves are douches as they're the one Pentacle order which is actively neutral on the topic of being a douche. Everyone else is against it, so the shithead Mages gravitate toward the Mysterium (if they don't go whole-hog and join the Seers).

>>52748525

>Rom

They're gypsies. And there sure as shit isn't anything romantic about them.

>>52748344
>You have 13 vampires who have been alive for 10's of thousands of years with some even being active only 1000 years ago. Why is it just NOW that them being awake is going to destroy the fucking world.
Because the end of the millenium was going to be the end of the world. It was a big thing in the 90s.

>>52748542
>I bet Dave is even disturbed by your devotion, magefaggots.
I think he knows it's a running joke.

I hope so.

>>52749091
Preety much. This stuff was all over the media back then

>>52749069

Are you fucking with people or is that shit really in there?

>>52749106
>>52749069

Oh never mind, I just realized what the 20(17) meant. Carry on.

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>>52748344
>>52749091
Ah Y2K, such a simpler time.

>>52749106
I'm just roleplaying. :^)

>>52749123

Yeah, I got it after a second there after I already submitted my post.

>>52749069
>demi-auspice trans-garou, believes she can do anything a cisgarou can

Despite the joke, I fear ridiculousness like "cisgarou" and "trans-garou" is exactly the type of garbage that will appear in the Paradox releases of the oWOD games (along with lots of katanas, trench coats and guyliner).

>PENTEX - Making Capitalism Great Again

>>52749100
>I bet Dave is even disturbed by your devotion, magefaggots.
>I think he knows it's a running joke.
>I hope so.

Dave is well aware of the joke. He's played along on a number of occasions.

>>52749042
So? It's just a fucking picture.

>>52749082
>It's not so much that the Mysterium themselves are douches as they're the one Pentacle order which is actively neutral on the topic of being a douche

The Mysterium is all about accumulating knowledge and saving it from Pancryptia, i.e., destruction by sleepers.

As a result, Sleepers don't normally rate too highly, and Mystagogues are sometimes willing to comprise Fallen ethics.

However, I don't think Mystagogues are the biggest douches so much as they aren't hypocrites that profess flowery ideals that they rarely meet.

>>52749277
>So? It's just a fucking picture.

Yes. Not only was Dave not in control of every piece of art, the actual setting, rules and author POV hardly push the issues, particularly compared to other gamelines.

>>52747776

You know, I wonder how magefags would handle another splat coming out and taking their place as top dog.

>>52749294
Pretty much. I mean Mystagogues understand and comprehend the nature and influence Wisdom has upon their Magic.

It doesn't matter that much if you're Gnosis 2 or Gnosis 7 when you go Mad, you're still forever lost unless an Archmaster stitches you a nice new Wisdom.

>>52749346
They would start fagging that splat instead, because they're trolls first and mage fans second, if they're fans at all.

>>52749257
Paradox is just a financer/publisher from my understanding, and while I know people like to make fun of them for being numale Swecucks, this is also the company that puts out the medieval incest Holy War simulator, and more recently, the intergalactic racist slave empire simulator.

Whatever crap that gets in the new game is solely on OPP and whoever's making the game. Also when is the use of katanas going to be considered cultural appropriation?

>>52749363

The devs for the Werewolf game are known for making Blood Bowl, Game of Thrones (both that awful quasi-RTS and that decent action RGP), Of Orcs and Men and Styx games.

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DEATH TO HUMAN PIGDOGS

MAKE IMPERGIUM GREAT AGAIN

>>52749394
Werefags thinking they matter

Fucking adorable!

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>>52749401
Don't be mean, of course they matter.
They make wonderful moccasins.

>>52749419
This is all very true. Though I'm leaning more towards Changeling wardrobes, myself.

>>52749419
>4 dot spells
Oh come on, at least try.

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Let's say that shit from the Garou does go through and they declare open war on the world of humanity, circa 1990s.

What are the reactions from the rest of the supernatural groups/factions/communities of oWoD?

>>52749445
Honestly I don't know. I can't imagine it'd be much different from the crossover reaction for the various end of the world scenarios. I also can't imagine the whole Impergium taking place without some other similar catastrophic events taking place in the various splats.

>>52749363

Paradox doesn't actually control White Wolf in any way other than financially, and even then it just seems to be "take a cut from their products".

White Wolf is pretty much allowed to do whatever it wants, so using Paradox as a basis won't predict any White Wolf action.

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>>52749401
PIGDOG WANT KNOT

KNOT IS FOR BABY

PIGDOG GET FANG

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>>52749439
If you insist.

>>52749549
The only spell that truly matters.

>>52749549

As with everything Mage, there's no reference to Changeling crossover...

It's not like those fairies are immune to the awesomeness of Mage Supremacy.

>>52749512

Is WW going to publish the new editions of the oWOD games independent of OPP? If yes, will OPP still simultaneously release more X20 books as current gameliens?

>>52749709
A couple of years ago Changelings fans were absolutely insufferable in regards to Mage hate.

I don't think it's a surprise that there is little to no mention of them in Awakening, despite Dave commenting that there are indeed "Changenling Experts" among the Orders exploring the Hedge and dealing with Freeholds.

>>52749780
I'd assume there would be splat experts everywhere with mages being so curious about everything.

Could a Slasher take on a Werewolf?

Some are pretty bullshit.

>>52749810

If you cannot find a some mage who knows about something, or at least knows someone (or some thing) that does, you're probably screwed.

Has OPP quietly abandoned Open Development?

Honestly, a coordinated assault by the Garou Nation could probably cripple most human nations; it's not about open WW2-style warfare so much as it is about assassination and sabotage. The reason the idea is completely insane, of course, is that the resulting suffering would empower the Wyrm and its forces to much too high a degree; humans are obnoxious, but mass death and destruction just make things worse.

>>52749905
I wouldn't think so, to be honest. Elricsson seems to disregarding both Pentex and the Union as a whole. The Garou just can't match up to these hidden societies running the world.

>>52749861
Probably yeah. Nwod.org banned the book for the merits being OP, didn't they?

>>52749920
The Union's existence isn't set in stone in any game that's not Mage, especially now that the metaplot's gone, and Pentex has some better security because they're in the know, but they wouldn't lift a finger to help the rest of human society; in fact, one of the reasons that restarting the Impergium is such a bad idea is that Pentex has its own plans for a controlled crash of the modern world.

>>52749920
Elricsson is dumb about a lot of things.

>Black Furies supremacy
>men don't matter

>>52749956
>especially now that the metaplot's gone

They're actually enforcing the metaplot. It's how we know OWoD is going to bomb.

>>52749861
A Mask could, easily. Some of the merits are fucking absurd. I remember one lets you watch someone for 5 rounds and then simply win any rolls against them from that point.

At their weakest, shitty hunters. At their strongest, can handily kill most things barring Loud Demons/Fresh Mummies/Archmages

Controversial opinion about Apocalypse: while I like the game and think that Forsaken is a travesty in comparison, I actually like Forsaken's tribes better; Apocalypse had too many. Masquerade's large amount of clans worked because so many of them were at cross-purposes and a lot of them had their own mini-societies away from the Camarilla and Sabbat that made things more interesting, but since the Garou Nation is roughly united into one purpose, the multitude of tribes just leaves things cluttered, with many tribes being too focused on a single issue.

>>52749725

1. Yes. 5e is already in playtest and will probably be more of a stepping stone to LARPing the game than anything purely table top, since LARP is WW's main non-TV show focus.

2. Anything that was already KSed will come out. Anything else (Hunter, Demon, etc) probably won't since WW wants to do a metaplot build-up for those lines and an X20 would probably hurt that.

>>52749986
>Mask + Legend Slasher shrugging off 3 dot Force mage shit

>>52749901

Open Dev needs two things:

1. A game or book must actually be in Development

2. The developer needs to actually decide to do an Open Development

1 and 2 don't align as much these days considering how slow production is.

>>52749986
>I remember one lets you watch someone for 5 rounds and then simply win any rolls against them from that point.

Could i look at an archmage for 5 turns and kill it?

>>52748344
Because the Jyhad's coming to a head.

>>52750075
If the Archmage was stupid enough to ignore a Slasher for five turns, yeah. There's some bullshit instakill merit too iirc, in the Charmer list

>hunters can kill mages in direct combat

You anons sure are delusional

>>52749445
The Camarilla start working with Pentex, while Sabbat just start firebombing their communities.

Tehnocracy starts dropping neutron bombs.

>>52750075
Wouldn't work. Though, if it DID work? The Archmage would pop up in his/her Golden Road.

At which point the Slasher is going to suffer retroactively for all eternity, more than likely.

>>52750152
Actually, Pentex prefers working with the Sabbat. The Camarilla apparently isn't ruthless enough for it.

>>52750138

You are just jealous of the #slashersupremacy

>>52750212
Eh, I can think of a dozen ways to slash the Slashers from memory alone. The book wasn't actually banned by the way.

Would an Archmage ever actually need to leave their Golden Road? Even aside from their Imperial Arcanum or whatever it's called, aren't there tons of spells available to Adepts and Masters to appear to be in one place while you're actually in another?

Like mental projections or that Space/Life clone spell.

>>52750188
Zettler knows how to work the Sabbat. They, too, would kill the shit out of him if they knew him better.

>>52749920

Union has an anti-garou vaccine. The only reason they haven't deployed it is that it kills too many humans(kinfolk). If woofs tried impergium shit, they'd just gas the kinfolk. As I've said, part of Werewolf is that the world has outgrown you. You're has-beens.

>>52750075

>Not having an archmage help your Maniac make his visions reality

>>52750138
>>52750212
>>52750513

>not realizing that a Mage could go nutters and acquire an Undertaking and become a Slasher Mage

>>52750498
Naturally, since Pentex is entirely devoted to infernalism.

That would actually be an interesting plot for a Sabbat game, to realize that they'd been bamboozled by Zettler this whole time. Maybe the quest to destroy him involves teaming up with the Giovanni, who apparently are already Pentex's bitter rivals.

>>52750513
Given that the Union barely shows up in Werewolf (they're even absent from the Weaver-led Apocalypse storyline), I think you're projecting a bit of Mage wankery onto Werewolf with "the world has outgrown you," a theme completely absent from all of the Werewolf books I've read.

>>52750543

>The given maniac in slashers sounds like he could awaken at any time

>>52750557

None of the end times books really crossed over at all.

>>52750586
>None of the end times books really crossed over at all.
That's my point; none of the other splats wind up really mattering in the endgame for any given splat. So it's true that werewolves are pointless in Mage, but mages are equally pointless in Werewolf.

>>52749984
Vampires get magic toys, I'm pretty sure. Think they were called phylacteries?
They're not a core book thing, but they were introduced at some point.

>>52749901
No they abandoned development since the company is dying.

>>52748151
>Impergium
More like imSPERGium am I right?

>>52750557

IDK they're pretty clear werewolf history is a calvacade of fuckups with no redeeming features

>>52750799
The Wars of Rage were bad, it's true, but they weren't everything.

>>52750799
>IDK they're pretty clear werewolf history is a calvacade of fuckups with no redeeming features

The fianna, just the fianna, the fact that the garou nation as a whole didnt sacrifice them in suicide assaults or declare ethnic cleansing is an irredemeable failure for the nation.

>>52750823
>>52751049

Everything good the tribes claim credit for is subjective. The fuckups are the only thing they can agree they did, and they still don't learn their lesson.

Impergium led to humans banding together, War of rage set the stage for the inability of shifters to work together, War of Tears and calls for a new impergium show that woofs don't learn. They can't change, even if they know they should, even if they try, and that's the real horror of the setting.

>>52751129
I'm pretty sure the "real horror" of the setting is the ever-encroaching Wyrm and Weaver. Werewolf isn't a game that's particularly subtle in its horror, and sometimes it seems like other players want to impose Vampire-style personal horror onto it.

>>52751185

All the games have personal horror.

Mage's horror is that two biggest factions are fighting a war over semantics,

Wraith's horror is your Shadow and living in a world where everything is made of PEOPLE,

Changeling's horror is growing old in a fandom that most people "age out" of. You try to stay on, but the stuff you really loved is no longer "cool" and no one cares. You'll either leave or be the creepy old guy at the con.

In Werewolf, your mother is dying and you can't do what is needed to save her no matter how hard you try. Because you're a fuckup.

>>52751298
>In Werewolf, your mother is dying and you can't do what is needed to save her no matter how hard you try. Because you're a fuckup.
Eh, sure you can, unless your Storyteller's a dick. Get the Elder Serpent on-side and free the Perfect Metis from the Atrocity Realm and you can win the Last Battleground, or survive the trek through Malfeas and perform the ritual to free the Wyrm to win Weaver Ascendant, or... do whatever random tasks crop up for the other two scenarios.

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Reposting from old thread.

So my players want me to run a Sabbat game for Vampire, I have a premise but I'm struggling with events to actually occur.

It's set in DC just after the city fell to the Sabat. Effectively DC fell much much easier than initially expected so there is alot of Shovelheads (including most of the PCs) with only basic knowledge of the Masquerade running around. With the rest of the offensive occurring in the east and the siege on New York, there is no one to police all these neonate assholes. So the Arch Bishop forms the players into a Pack and puts one of the few experienced vampires in charge (my only player with previous VtM experience.) This founded pack is given authority over all of the uninitiated False Sabbat that are in the city, with the authority to turn them into True Sabbat if they so choose.

>A group of brujah have taken over a biker gang and is causing all sorts of fucking trouble.
>A popular local punk band is actually a group of hunters that are using shows to identify vampires and track them down. Shovelheads, being idiots, keep disappearing.
And that's all I got. Anyone got any thoughts other than "it's shit"?

>>52751983
You could try having infernalists sneak in for recruitment purposes. That could make for a pretty interesting larger story arc; lots of lost and ignorant neonates could be ripe for being lured into demonolatry.

>>52751049
>The fianna, just the fianna
What did they do wrong?

>>52751129
>They can't change
>Shapechangers can't change
oh the irony

Is there a sourcebook for Old Laws of the underworld?

I wonder what the next new splat will be after Deviant.

If I had to guess myself, I would say that it's either going to be zombies or nature spirit type things.

>>52751983
I plan on running something similar to what >>52752069
proposed in VtR. Mass of disgruntled Carthians being poached by other covenants while few non brain dead leaders are trying to keep covenant from being dismantled in the region.

You could add a power struggle between various local leaders that give orders to your group.

>>52752702
And 3rd edition will change name to
>Crowd of Darkness

>>52752677
Damn I wanted to respond to >>52752677

>>52752312

Book of the Dead covers more of them, kind of.

How would an Archmage establish a new watchtower?

>>52748175
You shut your dirty whore mouth

>>52748376
>SJWs
>Not promoting slippery slope into beastiality

Do you even moral outrage?

>>52752955
I don't think they can. Even mages that have managed to ascend haven't been able to create a watchtower (assuming at least some have wanted to)

>>52753004
Get off the internet grandpa.

>>52753183
That's disappointing.

>>52753195
Don't give me that sass boy, now stop your baitin' and mow my lawn

>>52752677
I'm expecting them to bite the bullet and have the 12th Splat be Aliens: The Truth is Out There™

DaveB, with having a hand in Geist 2e, how much trouble are Sin-Eaters & Geists towards Mages? Would they be considered stronger or around the same as their 1e incarnations? Or is their dual entity presence more apparent and make for a different sort of situation than other splats?

>>52749363
I still don't understand how expelling the Jews and legalising incest is libtarded. I'm pretty sure the Paradox = SJW thing came from one of their other vidyas, probably tyranny.

>>52753195
>Get off the internet grandpa.

Get off my lawn, get a haircut, and for heaven's sake, turn down the rock music.

Is the anon from /v/ earlier today here maybe? Trying to convert some of those VtM .pdfs via Okular like you suggested, but having some issues.

>>52751335
But anon, Apocalypse was a terrible book
Infinitely times better than Gehenna and Ascension to be sure, but still "do the big rite to reset the universe lol"

Also I bought that book because I had no idea how to run a final battle story on my own, so being tol "Yeah, the Wyrm. Can't stat, nope. He just kills an indeterminate number of Garou each round. Your players can beat it, or not, make some shit up" was kind of a letdown.

>>52751298
The TEchnocracy-Tradition conflict is a bit more than about semantics. The Technocracy paradigm is to shut down magic and have it all channeled into technology: explainable to the Masses, easy to use for anyone with the sufficient culture and utterly predictable. They don't just want magic with another name.

>>52753837
Ironically, some of the A Tribe Falls scenarios might have been more to your liking, since they tend not to involve the Wyrm physically manifesting (ironically, because I tended to find them the worst-written, except for a few). I haven't read Ascension, but yes, it was far better than Gehenna.

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>>52753979
>far better than Gehenna.

That's not hard to achieve.

That said, V20's Beckett's Jyhad Diary (from the chapter previews) seems to be shaping up as a far better "here's some pre-made scenarios you could use if you want to include Gehenna in some way in your stories"-sourcebook.

I mean, it's far from perfect, but it's a hell of a lot more interesting than any of the original Gehenna scenarios.

>>52753979
Yeah, the problem is that they weren't about the Apocalypse, just an apocalypse (if that)
They were mostly about some tribe or the other fucking up bad and the other Garou dealing. But that's not what hte game sold us the Apocalypse as. It's got to be a final confrontation, it's got to involve the Wyrm. I'm not averse to the Wyrm actually entering the Plain of Apocalypse to slaughter Garou and then Gaia directly; it's the execution that was lacking.

Question for Storytellers
What information do you keep close at hand at all times?
Do you keep a player cheat sheet?

Demons did literally nothing wrong

>>52754088
I've tried to devise my own Gehenna scenario, in which Malkav and Tzimisce are the main enemies in the form of malign psychic presences trying to pull off an assimilation plot (Malkav wants to take over everyone's minds, Tzimisce wants all organic matter), but it still has some kinks that need working out.

>>52754134
What would you want more of in The Last Battleground? Stats for the Triatic Wyrm's embodied form when it's rendered killable?

>>52754395
Player sheets, npc sheets, rule summary, tables of useful stuff like feats of strength or animal stats.

>>52754420
Which demons?

>>52754523
All
But on a serious note I think he was talking Fallen demons because we're in a oWoD mood today.

>>52754395
Also I'm a big fan of maps so I'll create one for the zones players are most likely going to be and cover the hidden areas with construction paper.

>>52754523
All, but >>52754614 is correct.

>>52754395
For LARPs I use to have a notebook or 2-3 index cards with all the numbers from anything that was going to be in the encounter, as well as some general notes about what's on the players sheets so I don't accidentally let loose some stupid creature or event on the rest of the game unintentionally when its supposed to be a minor side plot for just that group.
I generally had the normal rule set committed to memory as well as a more general idea of what powers the PCs could use when planning things so I didn't need as many notes when running things.

>>52754680
Well, fair enough.

I really like Fallen, and I think that it could have been much better fleshed-out if the entire gameline didn't take place within a year or so. I also feel as though it made better use out of the premise of "you're a demon" than Descent did.

>>52754455
>Stats for the Triatic Wyrm's embodied form when it's rendered killable?ù

Sure. Why not?
And if not stats in the sense of STR 750 DOTS LOL at least something that makes sense to engage directly and it's a bit less handwavy than "Rite to win"

>>52754845
Yeah if only, There's room for so much radical shit.

>>52753454

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1-fPVMwMZdnrJZiJkUVIYKCHTQnfmq0fiLqUhlLBGif4/edit

Best take on Ayys in the CofD i've seen yet.

>>52755138
One quibble I have with it is that the Lore isn't all that interesting; it's just Disciplines with evil versions of each power. Which made me wonder if Descent's mechanics could be used for some rebooted version of Fallen. I even came up with a way to use Fallen's backstory in the metaplotless nWoD: have the fallen escape their prison, only to wind up on a different Earth than they remember, one with no traces of God or the angels. Their memories are faulty, God somehow wiped itself out of existence, or they wound up in a parallel universe, perhaps...

>>52755210
That's pretty neat honestly, one thing I love about Demon the Descent is that it lets you build your true form, so to speak. How they're described gives them an otherworldly nature imo.
I'd love to give that kind of Demon game a go though, sounds improved.

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Daily Reminder Magecucks believe they can roll a 12 on a d10. Sad

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>>52755195
>One of the playable races is the Thing

Shut up and take my money!

http://clarkesworldmagazine.com/watts_01_10/

>>52755547
Sweet, which ones are the Thing aliums?

>>52755195
>>52755547

I'd honestly be fine with an alien splat that covered a mix of the pop culture icons either as a playable option or antagonist.

The greys, the xenomorph-esques, the predator-esques, the thing, etc

>>52755662
The Formae. Obviously based on the Thing, Bodysnachers and the like. With the right adaptations you could probably play as a nerfed Thing.

I had an idea for an alien abduction one shot for Mage. Where a cabal gets abducted while investigating crop circles but they end up chasing and hunting the aliens around the solar system trying to dissect them and presenting their findings at a Mysterium convocation.

The aliens would be horrified because they can't understand how primitive humans are liquifying their ship, or causing their tools to come to life and turn on them, or are stuttering through time without any detectable equipment.

>>52753837
>The Technocracy-Tradition conflict is a bit more than about semantics. The Technocracy paradigm is to shut down magic and have it all channeled into technology: explainable to the Masses, easy to use for anyone with the sufficient culture and utterly predictable. They don't just want magic with another name.
It's one group of cosplaying retards fighting another group of cosplaying retards. Both of which are delusional and utterly convinced that the costumes they wear, the props they use and the nonsense they babble matter in anyway.

>>52755815
>convinced that the costumes they wear, the props they use and the nonsense they babble matter in anyway.
And every one of them is right.

>>52755783

This is entirely possible in Alien the Stranded, except I think the Aliens would have some idea what's going on, and more trouble getting off earth.

>>52755680
It's got all that except one splat mixes xenomorph and predator aspects, the Cimice.

>>52747506
It's fine, just hit a snag.

>>52755975
>Cimice
>Tzimisce
Oho.

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>>52756101
This sounds like a bit more than a snag. It looks like development hell.

>>52751983
>Camarilla Elder that has been torpid for last decade or three wakes up
>not aware of the change in power, not amused to find out
>strong enough to wipe floor with any Sabbat Kindred, but can be overcome when enough shovelheads (with proper gear) gang up
>could be convinced to turn sides when approached diplomatically

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>>52747848
Wait.. people play Requiem?

I thought everyone agreed it was shit.

>>52756323
I like it even if the fluff isn't as good as Masquerade
I always use my own fluff anyway

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Who has best minions?

>>52756340
>fluff
eh?

>>52756399
fluff and crunch
lore and system

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Which clan or bloodline is most likely to scout out someone as a potential childe for several years?

>>52756323
I enjoy both of them.

>>52756486
My initial thoughts:
Tremere, because they're paranoid about letting new people in and want to be sure the new childe won't screw with the pyramid.
Followers of Set, who fairly often bring recruits through their cults, selecting worthy ghouls.
Giovanni, who have their scouting inherently built in because everyone comes from the same few families.

>>52756489
As a system, i can understand-- it's less dices to play; it's basically faster...

but all the rest is just bad. There were some questionable choices for atributes as well.

This question may have been asked before but:

Am I the only one that feels like Division Six is a conspiracy? It just feels much bigger than a compact, especially with its background.

>>52756551
What about it is bad, would you say?

>>52756567
You're not. It really should be; it deserves to stand on its own beside the creepy Sleeper Scelesti.

>>52756538

What about Tzimisce? They tend to cultivate their ghoul families throughout the centuries, right?

>>52756633
They work too, though it's not all that common for the Tzimisce to Embrace revenants; they tend to have mental problems.

>>52753183
Archmages absolutely can produce their own Watchtower, it's one of the options given in Imperium.

>>52756629
I was just reading into it and it feels like BRPD and TFV had a kid with 1/10 the budget. But considering they are backed by mages, I figured they would be conspiracy level.

>>52756657

> they tend to have mental problems.

I can't tell if you're talking about the revenants or the Tzimisce.

>>52752069
That's not a bad idea, but now I have to read about infernalists.

>>52756271
That seems like it would be a bit above the PCs pay grade. But it definitely has potential.

>>52756667
I think the reason it's only a convention is that it's backed by just one prominent Seer and presumably his minions, and he explicitly keeps it a secret even from other Seers.

>>52756668
Revenants. The Tzimisce prefer people who are sane but with alien sensibilities.

Speaking of the Tzimisce, are the Old Clan unable to learn Vicissitude or do they simply abstain from ever learning it?

>>52756567

It's a seer's personal death squad, so it fits they wouldn't have advanced armory

>>52756708
Well, I could see Division Six transitioning into a conspiracy like Network 0 can I just would have no idea what kind of endowments they could get.
>>52756758
Ok that right there makes a lot of sense and could totally work story wise.

>>52756629
>What about it is bad, would you say
Well, to begin with atributes like composure/resolve and presence are kind of useless (or at least you could use only one of them, really). Flaws being merely a flavor doesn't really work. And what i think is worst: "sub-clans" are never really explained if related to blood or not. It wouldn't be such a big deal if there weren't only 4 or 5 clans now so you depend a lot on them. The weird part is that those sub-clans are supposed to... change your character. There is one related to tecnology, for example. So if you were transformed by a vampire of that sub-clan you suddenly should be a computer fanatic or some shit. On the other hand, if it is not related to blood, how to explain so much shit in common on disciplines, and the necessity to be of the same clan?

lore-wise would just be personal opinion, but it's just not as good.

>>52756725
I believe they can learn Vicissitude, but it's not a clan Discipline (they have Dominate instead).

>>52752955
Five dot Omen

>>52749050
Huh? I thought Bailey said that the book was more or less done, and just needed editing?

>>52756633
Not really the same. For Giovanni, Tremere, and many other Clans and Bloodlines the Ghoul might be natural step before Embrace. They stop again and can be properly tested / groomed until truly ready.
For Tzimisce, it works differently - Ghouls are servants at best, tools and things at worst. They are also often flesh-sculpted. And Path of Metamorphosis emphasizes self-discovery. Being altered by anybody other than yourself actually pushes further from the understanding.

>>52756629
>>52756818
Oh, i forgot to add. but some of the material is conflicting; i remember being in an argument with my playgroup about how much humanity a murderer could have, because in one instance it was said 4 and in another part it was 6.

>>52756833

>Huh? I thought Bailey said that the book was more or less done, and just needed editing?

Look at the new previews and notice how different they are from when Hill was developing in tone and in mechanical detail. If they're not starting from zero, they're writing a lot more new material for the book than implied.

>>52756680
>That seems like it would be a bit above the PCs pay grade.
The Elder does not need to be automatically hostile. Sure, they will be upset, but will have enough sensibility to realize they are alone in territory that's now ruled by the enemy. Wiping couple nobodies might make them feel better for a while, but doesn't serve any real plan except maybe going down in the blaze of glory killing as many as possible. And if the Elder was thinking this way, they would have joined Sabbat in the first place.

>>52748930

You can't combat a cancer by ignoring it because 'chemo is annoying'.

>>52756895
>in mechanical detail.
I noticed that the new previews look like garbage trash and aren't complete enough to use in a game.

>>52756323
Less fluff, better mechanics, and the fluff it does have fits better to a "design your adventure" style of storytelling.

>>52756965
Except you're not fighting cancer, you're bitching about your wounded sensibilities, retard. And the thing is, you're being a loud obnoxious cunt in the process which is why it gets annoying.

Don't delude yourself into thinking you're any better than a bunch of pathetic SJWs.

>>52756944
Now an Gangrel Elder waking up in Rock Creek Park, picking off a bunch of rando shovelheads that are in his domain, then trying to figure out what the hell is going on could be very interesting. Send in the players to try to convince him that the Gangrel are now independents and that he should go meet with the Arch Bishop.

Could even have him join the Sabbat and make him Bishop of the players.

Thanks anon, that idea has legs.

>>52747719
>the butthurt begins

And its from a grognard edgy edward mullen.

is there a ritual of sacred rebirth in NWOD?

Is there a word for the feeling of loss you get when you spend time writing a character, come to a game and it turns out everyone else is there to focus on vampire sex?

>>52747776
Look kids, projection

>>52754680
>guy who led the rebellion literally wrote an entire book telling mankind how to defeat his brothers and telling them that the way to salvation is to be charitable and good like God is
>dindu nuffin

>>52747848
Pretty much my experience

>>52756486
Nearly every clan except the Gangrel, Brujah and Nosferatu do so, but the biggest ones are Lasombra, Ventrue and Toreador

>>52757371

>Not a werewolf going "Muh Knot mufugga bix lune"

This is the only reason this image fails

>>52756486
The MOST likely to do this? Tremere. This is what they always do, no matter what else. Being "accidental Tremere" is on the extreme end of Sueisms.

>>52747526
dick eggs is the only correct answer

If DaveB was allowed to develop Requiem or Forsaken, would vamps and woofs become supreme like mages?

>>52757563
>implying that God is charitable or good

>>52757863
DaveB has infiltrated every gameline except Hunter. He has worked too hard on Mage supremacy to share its benefits with others!

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>>52757915

>>52757942
Forgive me, I was referring to WoD's God, who's an absentee, hypocritical asshole.

>>52758003
I think the first angel knows more about his nature than anyone

>>52757917
>DaveB has infiltrated every gameline except Hunter

So that explains why Hunters are screwed worse than most in any mage encounter.

Monica better find a freelance project on Hunter for Dave or he'll find a way to shit on Hunters 2.0.

>>52758047
Lucifer wound up throwing away everything he'd previously stood for to take on God's least attractive traits, so there we have it.

>>52758003
>God

Literally does nothing to prevent Gehenna of any scenario. He's sure not as powerful as people claim him to be.

>>52758068
And later he repented, and wrote that the way to salvation is to give and love like God did

>>52758069
Why would he want to prevent Gehenna? Would you do anything if all the rats infesting your house suddenly died?

>>52758091
Except that God did neither, so I have no idea what Lucifer's supposed to be talking about. All God did was demand, shun and take.

>>52758111
If a 10 dot Archmage turned the universe into an anus shitting out dimension eating horrors, would you not do something?

Would God even be powerful enough?

>>52757917
>DaveB has infiltrated every gameline except Hunter

If by "infiltrated" you mean openly hired as an author with writing credits.

There nothing nefarious or sneaky about Dave's contributions to the nWOD/CofD.

Mages have been superior well before Dave began writing for WW books, and they'll continue to be so long after he's gone.

Besides, according to yesterday's threads, Dave recently "separated" from OPP and is now accepting writing projects for Shadowrun.

>Orc Supremacy, Chummer!

>>52751983

aren't there Setites in DC? have some shovelheads start a beef with the Setites and have the players deal with fallout

>>52758003
>WoD's God


WOD God is dead

>obviously killed by an Archmage after he kicked the shit out of Caine and Luna

>>52758144
>Would God even be powerful enough?

Ten dots in any specific Sphere equates to omnipotence over that aspect of reality, so it would be hard to say really.
The Unnamed is essentially the antichrist to begin with, not much you can do to him.

>>52758114
>God did neither

Who gave form and place to the Universe?

Who gave breath to both the angels and the humans?

Who gave comfort to mankind, and even when they shunned his gifts he still allowed them a way back to his grace?

Who gave Caine, who killed his own brother and spat thrice upon the chance of redemption, the key to the path of Golconda?

Who gave the demons, when they rebelled, the chance to be simply painlessly unmade, and when they still refused, punished them no more than lock them in a room and still gave them a chance of redemption?

>>52758144
Well first of all, you're talking about Ascension, where the existence of the Abrahamic God is not a given. You said Gehenna, which is Vampire only.

Second, if this is God with a capital G we're talking about, the Unnamed is nothing to him- for all we know, he intervened after the scenario ends and blasts him into nothingness.

>>52758198
>Second, if this is God with a capital G we're talking about, the Unnamed is nothing to him- for all we know, he intervened after the scenario ends and blasts him into nothingness.

I highly doubt that. God was either too lazy or incapable of intervening.

>>52758198
Who threw six separate curses on humanity for not choosing to remain willfully ignorant, and then blasted the world with entropy and destroyed Paradise?

Who deliberately designed Hell to create the maximum amount of psychological torture?

Who decided to turn the first murderer into an immortal parasite capable of spreading his condition around?

Who never really needed to have bothered with any of this shit happening if he'd let Lucifer and humanity be?

>>52758238
You're talking about Ascension, in which there's no definite proof that God exists.

I don't know what you want.

>>52758287
All those side effects sure sound like Paradox...

>>52748462
>FtA


That's been a dead MUSH for a long time, even before X20 stuff came out.

>>52758287
>Who deliberately designed Hell to create the maximum amount of psychological torture?

There is no such Hell in oWoD. There's only the abyss, which is just nothingness.

>Who decided to turn the first murderer into an immortal parasite capable of spreading his condition around?
???

Lilith gave him those abilities, God was the one who weakened him enough so that he wouldn't rule over mankind

>Who threw six separate curses on humanity for not choosing to remain willfully ignorant, and then blasted the world with entropy and destroyed Paradise?

As if humanity would have remained compliant under the demons' control. Cain killed Abel way before the curses were levied, so it's clear that mankind had it in them.

>Who never really needed to have bothered with any of this shit happening if he'd let Lucifer and humanity be?

Who's to say what Lucifer was planning next? Not to mention that they were slowly going crazy even before the full-blown war, so maybe they would have extinguished mankind in the end

>>52758291
Well God does exist, it's just that his status is relatively questionable. The extradimensional consciousness (which mages unite with upon Ascending) that the Celestial Chorus speaks of definitely isn't him.
God might as well be a Celestine similar to Gaia and the Triat.

>>52749363
Do note that Werewolf 5th edition (assuming White Wolf considers everything they put out 5th edition, like they said they'll be doing with Vampire as they consider V20 a proper 4th edition), assuming it gets released, will be developed in-house by White Wolf like they're doing vampire. They may hire OPP freelancers, but it won't be developed by OPP at all. From what I understand, they'll stop doing anything OWOD once the X20 stuff finishes.

>>52758388
>God might as well be a Celestine similar to Gaia and the Triat.
I always ran with this. Not a fan of Judeo-Christianity trumping everything else.

Mages have a more believable grasp of a supreme entity, something that's too alien incomprehensible to ever truly understand or make itself known, period.

>>52757415
Yes.

Typical.

>>52758385
>There is no such Hell in oWoD. There's only the abyss, which is just nothingness.
Reread the Chapter 3 corebook, I recommend.

>As if humanity would have remained compliant under the demons' control. Cain killed Abel way before the curses were levied, so it's clear that mankind had it in them.
Your chronology is horribly off. The curses were thrown before the Age of Wrath began; Cain killing Abel marked the end of the Silent War, the first phase of the Age.

>>52758429
In Werewolf cosmology, the closest equivalent to God is a dickish and somewhat tainted Weaver Incarna, the Patriarch, steward of the seed of Dogma.

>>52758429
The "supreme entity" you're referring to is the collective of Ascended mages.

They're too powerful and too far gone to ever come back.

>>52758434
Unless you're implying that being denied the chance at seeing the world and people they created is "the highest psychological torture" (lmao) I don't see what you're talking about. If you are talking about this, there are many demons who saw mankind only as slaves

>Your chronology is horribly off. The curses were thrown before the Age of Wrath began; Cain killing Abel marked the end of the Silent War, the first phase of the Age.
It's been a decent time since I've read the books so you may be right, but God cursing mankind is just biblical stuff

>>52752677
An iZombe-esque splat could be cool, but could also be rolled into another splat as a subsplat.

>>52758478
>Unless you're implying that being denied the chance at seeing the world and people they created is "the highest psychological torture" (lmao) I don't see what you're talking about. If you are talking about this, there are many demons who saw mankind only as slaves
Specifically, it was designed so that the demons could still sense and experience all of humanity's suffering, but couldn't do anything about it.

>It's been a decent time since I've read the books so you may be right, but God cursing mankind is just biblical stuff
How does that make it non-assholish?

I'm curious.

What's the most bullshit thing an Archmage can do?

>>52758523
By the end of the Age of Wrath demons were so twisted that they probably deserved it.

Plus, it was only for a limited time.

>How does that make it non-assholish?
Without suffering, how could we appreciate bliss?

By this point we're getting into theology

>>52758531
Create a pack of chewing gum that destroys the entire universe, retroactively.

Transform into the universe, assimilating all other beings into himself.

Create a new universe, over which he is omnipotent.

Archmages in Ascension are basically God with the right Archspheres.

If however you mean Awakening's Archmages, they're not quite that ridiculous, but still obscenely powerful. They can make large scale changes to the world, cosmology, or history at a retroactive level.

One of them invented Christianity on accident by changing history, so that Mithranity never became the dominant faith.

>>52758531
ST discretion is a limit.

>>52758531
take the knot better than anybody else

>>52758531
dick eggs

>>52758596
>dick eggs

Sadly, that was MattMc, and he's no archmage.

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>>52758531

Enjoy

>>52758572
>Plus, it was only for a limited time.
"After you've been there ten minutes, you think you've been there ten thousand years."

>Without suffering, how could we appreciate bliss?
This evidently wasn't a problem for God before humans became sapient, since there wasn't much suffering going on beforehand. Also, too much suffering will prevent you from being able to experience bliss.

>>52758626
Which the demons fully deserved tbqh.

Also the problem of theodicy is incredibly old, and it's too long and serious to get into here, so if you're interested you can read up on it

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>>52758584
>Create a pack of chewing gum that destroys the entire universe, retroactively.
Prime example of munchkin whoring magefags

>>52758651
>Which the demons fully deserved tbqh.
Rather a broad brush, that. The Ebon and Silver Legions were only two-fifths of the Unholy Host. The Alabaster Legion was mostly just absentee, and the Crimson and Iron Legions were reasonably decent.

>>52758686
Well see here we get into the problem that we each have differing subjective views so might as well stop the discussion here

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>>52758584
>>52758616
>>52758656

Masters of the Art was a mistake and should be lambasted.

>>52758715
>Brucato still considers them canon
They're even mentioned in M20 apparently.

>>52758764
The Archspheres? Yeah but you won't ever see them in play, hombre.

Some questions demons:

Was Lilith a demon?

If the Abyss is literally hell and Obtenebration comes from it, how are LaSombra any different than the Baali?

Are the demons that the Baali deal with the same from The Fallen?

>>52758838
No, Lilith was just the first woman who refused to be Adam's wife, was cursed similar to how Caine was only hers was more abstract (no one could love her) and was the first blood mage.

Depends if you want to cross over DtF and VtM, if you do they aren't involved with demons but rather they're manipulating the stuff of their prisons.

Depends if you want a crossover, when the Baali were written the Fallen didn't even exist yet

>>52758838
Lilith being an ancient Verbena was a popular fan theory back in the 90s.

>>52758838
There are at least two, probably three, realms called the Abyss in WoD cosmology. However, the Lasombra Abyss is quite different from the demonic one.

>>52758838
>Was Lilith a demon?
She was a Mage.
>If the Abyss is literally hell and Obtenebration comes from it, how are LaSombra any different than the Baali?
Abyss isn't hell. It's just the prison for Demons.
>Are the demons that the Baali deal with the same from The Fallen?
Hell is actually it's own thing and Baali don't work with Fallen Demons for the most part. Baali deal with every sort of demons, some deal with Fallen but most deal with Infernal Spirits from the Umbra.

>>52758920
>There are at least two, probably three, realms called the Abyss in WoD cosmology. However, the Lasombra Abyss is quite different from the demonic one.
There is not. There's one abyss. The cosmology is the same across all the lines. Stop spouting bullshit.

>>52758174
I actually have never dealt with Setites in any of my games. What's their MO and relationship with the Sabbat?

>>52759094
They're assholes that sell drugs to kids.

That's all you need to know about Setites really.

>>52758715
>people take DaveB's post as word of god
>magefags will deny Brucato's word of god saying 6-10 shouldn't exist

>>52759094
The Setites are willing to work with the Sabbat and don't generally make too many waves in Sabbat-controlled territory, but they generally find it easier to operate in Camarilla territory and aren't immensely fond of the Sabbat. The Serpents of the Light are another story; mainstream Setites utterly despise them and will do anything within their power to destroy them, usually involving trying to turn the rest of the Sabbat against them.

>>52759112
>DaveB's word
A respected personality online
>Brucato's word of god
A goat fucker.

>>52759110
This is WoD. Everyone sells drugs to kids. Except maybe Tzimisce who make drugs from the kids.

>>52759146
Everyone knows the best drugs come from kids.

>>52759112
Brucato could have also just said it was a typo but he didn't.

Literally don't see why Mage needs the archspheres anyways since the Master ranking in it lets you do pretty much everything. And I'm a Magefag.

>>52758715
Brucato himself states that the Spheres outstrip both Disciplines and Gifts.

kek
At least he's not a sore loser and acknowledges that the Arch-Spheres are legitimately canon.

>>52759110
Do Setites really sell drugs to kids?

>>52759211
Some of them do. They're huge assholes. They're worse than the Gypsy vampires

>>52759198
>but they WERE canon
>not going to put them in the main Mage 20 rulebook
I like your selective reading

>>52759211
Their religion is about inducing corruption.

>>52759223
But they are in the m20 core anon.

>>52758616
>"You can create universes in the palms of your hands. You are Omnipotent within these newly formed universes with your knowledge of the Spheres as the only limitating factor."
>"Forces 9 / Prime 9 would essentially allow you to re-create the universe in your own personal image, possibly on a multiversal scale."

Perhaps God really is a mage then.

>>52759223
The Arch-Spheres are mentioned in M20, you dumb shit.

It even directs you to Masters of the Art. Keep denying yourself, biased vampfaggot.

>>52759242
>>52759282
I'm not denying that, but claiming Brucato thinks they are is a stretch in logic, you illiterate shits

>>52759282
But what about when Dracula makes nothing canon and ruins it all?

>>52759239
That's not entirely true. Corruption is only a means to an end, and it's not the only possible means: what they actually want is to liberate peoples' souls from the chains of the Aeons, the somewhat vague pantheon attempting to keep humanity chained in a little box of custom and routine.

>>52759297
Eh, still canon.

>>52759300
Nothing is safe from Dracula. Not even Masquerade.

>>52759263
I didn't bother to read the quote / image out of annoyance, but is this something you can really do using 6-10 dots in Mage?

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>>52759317
Is there honestly anyone legitimately interested in this new edition? Is there anyone who finds something so important lacking from X20 books that they'd risk losing other important thematic elements? The videogame will be neat but I'm not excited about the books at all.

>>52759345
I doubt any single Archmage is going to have two Spheres at nine dots, but yes it is entirely possible.

>>52759361
I am interested in the plot changes to Masquerade, if this whole 'scaling back to a more neonate/ancilla focused game with most elders dead or in hiding due to a second inquisition' aspect, just to see how they handle it. I don't play Mage or Apocalypse, so I have no real opinion on those.

>>52758715
>Gifts only go up to 6
>Spheres go up to 6
>Therefore Spheres must also go up to 10
??????

>>52759361
Dracula is a LARPer. I might finally get a playable Mage LARP book. Its the only hope i still have qq.

>>52759393
You can blame Masquerade for that.

>>52759410
Hah.

Now please buy more condition cards, and a t-shirt!

Why is there even a wank poll at the top of the thread when you asswipes are already answering the question due to being such fags

You are insufferable

>>52759448

Wrong company, what you meant to say was "Now please buy our visual novel and a Netflix subscription".

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>>52759478
New TV show WHEN!?

>>52758155
>If by "infiltrated" you mean openly hired as an author with writing credits.
>There nothing nefarious or sneaky about Dave's contributions to the nWOD/CofD.
>Mages have been superior well before Dave began writing for WW books, and they'll continue to be so long after he's gone.
It's a joke, anon. If you want Dave's real opinion on Mage supremacy he's said he finds it incredibly tiresome.

>>52759472
The poll seems more like a joke than actual wanking.

>>52759494
Never. It'll fail.

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>>52759500
>he finds it incredibly tiresome
Yeah, and then there are the odd few times where he actually plays along with it.

>>52759345
Yes. Archmages can turn the universe into an anime version of itself.

Is there a problem with that?

The best game blend has always been Vampire/Werewolf/Hunter.

FACT

>>52759547
>Yes. Archmages can turn the universe into an anime version of itself.
>Not always running your games like this already haappened
Why even live.

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>>52759532
>Yeah, and then there are the odd few times where he actually plays along with it.

Yep

>>52759560
Anime should never be used as a theme

Die

>>52756833
>Huh? I thought Bailey said that the book was more or less done, and just needed editing?
She said the opposite. Hill released a lengthy playest packet, but it wasn't a complete game.

>To be clear, if we'd received a finished manuscript for the CtL2 core, we'd likely have gone to press with it. As is, we're finishing the writing and development process. There's both all-new content and elements from earlier drafts.
>And, of course, like any CofD book, once it's all out, go ahead and use whatever sources work for you. :)

Have another post while I'm at it.
>Changeling is currently at the end of second drafts for the new stuff. Meghan and I will be sharing more material as we finish our development passes on it, and as needs like spot playtesting or reconciling different chapters are addressed. I'm trying to make sure that anything I say about the game is something I can back up with a piece of the book that's already solidly in place. There's room to change and tweak -- for example, there was some good discussion on RPGnet about Court recruitment that Ethan's going to follow up on, and I'm looking at what we can add for custom Court powers beyond the Mantle mechanics we've been using from earlier drafts. But, globally speaking, I want to present things that are near-finished and that embody the game we'll be delivering to you.
>Please be patient as we get things squared away -- forum discussions can evolve much more quickly than I can produce a finished book.