/CofD/ & /wodg/ Chronicles of Darkness and World of Darkness

>>52718092
>I'm doing the ghost mechanics for Geist 2e, stripping the spirits and angels out of the generic set and then expanding them massively. The expansion is such that ghosts are now fully playable as PCs.

Very interesting, Dave.

Does this also mean that spirits and angels will receive their own unique rules and be usable as playable PCs?

>>52718334
Dude your making me so hyped for Geist 2E!!

Anything your allowed to spoil about the ghost section to us?

Well, relating back to both Geist hype and my original question, I kinda want to adapt some of the Arcanoi as manifestations that didn't make the cut, but the way keys work makes that really labor intensive. Dont get me wrong, I dig the concept, it's just difficult to come up with 10 seperate varieties of keening (called "the wail") or Usury ("the scales") based on each key.

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remember the words of dave

I'm curious if the power level of Sin Eaters in Geist 2e will be comparable to that in Mage, Demon and Mummy or those of the less powerful splats.

>>52719760
The OP was originally going to be "Local Exarch shits on OP's favorite legacy" but it didn't fit. I know "best" is subjective, but he's basically doing a 180 on the legacy concept.

>>52720110
Please tell me we're going to get supplements this time.

>>52720168
Considering that Geists are stupidly powerful, probably on par with a Mage.

Geist have a lot of burst but not a lot of versatility

>>52720295
What's this about legacies?

>>52720321

Basically, 2e mage took the blank badges, who were extreme individualists who used transgressive performance art and magical terrorism to awaken people and made them a collectivist hivemind/magic 4chan/antifa-esque thing.

Better to just kill them off, imo. Not that the hivemind idea is bad, it's just the opposite of what the badges concept was.

>>52720321

The Anon is complaining about the changes to the Blank Badges described in the short blurbs about example Legacies from the Mage 2e core, pp. 202-203.

>>52720401

If someone changed your favorite legacy's concept to the opposite of what they are, wouldn't you be put off?

>>52720399

You can always create your own "extremely individualistic, transgressive performance art and magical terrorist" legacy.

>>52720320

Not on par, but close enough to be a legitimate opponent.

>>52720436

But it already existed, and there's something to be said about an idea being canon.

So vampire, werewolf, mage, and Promethean have official 2e conversions, demon and beast are 2e originals, and hunter has transition rules in mortal remains right? And changeling should be soon(tm), with hunter, giest, and deviant declared by somewhere down the line at best.
Am I missing anything?

>>52720416
>someone changed your favorite legacy's concept to the opposite of what they are, wouldn't you be put off?

Meh, shit changes with new editions. If your worst complaint about 2e is a gripe about a single legacy (which a just a few sentences in the corebook), you're doing great.

Besides, as >>52720436 notes, you can always create your own legacy or update the old Blank Badges to 2e.

I'm more interested in the status of the Mage FAQ and Signs of Sorcery which should answer questions and provide more info on actually creating and updating legacies for use in play.

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>>52720490
>deviant

>>52718092 →
>>52718334 →

Dave, will Geist 2e discuss in detail the whole receding waters of the Ocean of Fragments first raised in Dark Eras The Sundered World?

>>52720436

Also, a lot of dave's defenses of the idea could be applied to the 11th question. see what I said at >>52719111

>>52720517
It's only worst because they were my favorite. I can learn the confusing new rules eventually and all the other stuff that comes with a new edition.

And better to just bin the badges if he can't come up with a fix for their mechanical issues that doesn't involve a total reversal in concept.

And now I'd have to get every ST I try and roll a "true" badge for to OK my concept rather than just accepting it as official. And I still have to memorize all the new rules.

>>52720019
More Wraith shit i want to homebrew for sin eaters is the a "specter" type antagonist, who are what happens when a geist lets a potential host die and just jacks their body. Basically they go around doing horrible specter shit with sin-eater level powers, and decomposing/going crazy.

Usually a Geist who does this never does it again afterwards, as they "come to their senses."A few, however, develop a taste for it and teach inexperienced geists how to do it so they can have "reinforcements."

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What'd be the perfect Clan/bloodline for him?

>tfw can't play changeling: the lost because the whole thing is your magical realm

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>>52720734
You may not like it, but this is what peak male Toreador looks like.

>>52720800

Why would I mind?

>>52720748
Do it fag

Redpill me on Zak?
>>52720798

>>52720927
He's a faggot who made hill rage quit. While this may be a good thing, hes still a little shit and they are both awful people.

>>52720748
Thats never stopped me. Not about changeling in specific mind.

Remind me, where do the firstborn wolves hang out?

>>52720517

Yeah, but they usually try and stay true to the concept.

>>52721116
>where do the firstborn wolves hang out?

>Questions that will get you killed

How would you play a 10 wyrd 10 clarity pc, is such a thing even possible?

>>52720927

A stalker or a stalker enabler at best, wrote some bad Vampire fiction for new White Wolf because he's friends with the creative director on Facebook.

>>52721129

Traditionally you change the abilities to fit the concept, not change the concept to fit the abilities. This redesign is completely ass backwards.

How would you adapt the Arcana to a modern physics based perspective?

The way I see it, Matter and Forces would be unified as there wouldn't be a distinguishment between a sound wave, an electron wave, an electromagnetic wave or a force wave.

As well, Life, Fate and Time would be unified as Life is merely a very efficient mechanism for using up the sun's energy output (basic entropy and probability principles) and Time is merely the physical direction in Space-Time that increases entropy. If you cause a entropically unfavorable event to occur that is basically the same as reversing time.

A bit of Time would be carved off into Space due to special relativity but not so much as to put the reversal of entropy into the domain of Space. The big unification would be between Space, Mind, Death and Prime into some sort of domain focusing on Shannon information theory, the Bekenstein bound, Bremermann's limit and about the amount of information you can fit in some space.

Maybe this would work for some offshoot of the Technocracy.

>>52721116

Wherever the fuck they want. You gonna tell one of the firstborn "no?"

>>52721260

Other options for "paradox shields," and I'm assuming these would be unique to the legacy

1 They use Prime to charge their occultation, partially hiding from lies with the Truth

2 They use Mind to contain paradox using their mental health rather than physical

Both of these explain the eccentricity of the legacy and their paradox resistance without having to change the concept.

I'm mostly pissed that "change the concept" was the best Dave could think up. This is the first time he's genuinely let me down.

>>52721805
Energy isn't matter.

>>52721849
E=mc^2 faggot. An electron only appears to have mass. It is actually a zero mass photon like particle spinning around in a loop at the speed of light that appears to have mass due to angular momentum and magnetic effects. Possibly. It could also be composed of a cloud of preons like a proton is composed of quarks and derive mass from a strong force like effect.

>>52721805

The technocracy couldn't do it with the Spheres, let alone the "Arcana".

Arcana makes me think of Wraith. Geist needs to get some soul-forging action in 2e.

www.strawpoll.me/12735417

>>52721917
Please don't shitpost anon.

>>52721917
Not really appropriate to post, since the werefags are the one with the aversion now.

>>52721917

"MUH KNOT"

This phrase represents a werefag's confusion regarding magefag supremacy and their preference for changeling or sin eater waifus

>>52721839
>Wherever the fuck they want. You gonna tell one of the firstborn "no?

No, No, bad dog! You know you're not allowed in the material world. No treat for you.

>>52720748
TFW the book will never be published and the dev material might all be scrapped.

>>52721986
I dunno, I kind of admire their dogged insistence. I mean they have to know that werewolves don't top mages, but they keep going anyway.

>>52722013
>not wanting a qt powerless vamp waifu that you can do anything you please with
shit taste desu

>>52722039
>being that into necrophilia
gross, you don't have to sink that low just because a Mage won't be your waifu.

>>52721805
>How would you adapt the Arcana to a modern physics based perspective?

Trying to shoehorn a metaphysical magic system into a hard science framework is a fool's errand. The whole point of the Arcana is that they follow their own rules and are not constrained by science.

>Supernatural Personal Ads

Never married, white, mature male Iron Master Elodoth, corporate attorney, no kids, loves cooking, classical music, and slow hikes in the country under the half moon, seeking attractive, warm and smart wolf-blooded woman who loves the outdoors, lazy weekends in front of the fireplace, and heavy petting. No Pure, Claimed, vampires or other undead please. Mages and Proximi OK.

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Interesting comment from DaveB about Archmages

In Mage 2e, do Artifacts regenerate mana as they did in 1e?

>>52722316
So do Exarchs summon their seers for an eye to eye talk? Would something like that blow mages mind out?

>>52722480
Exarchs send out their orders through dreams, if I'm not mistaken.

>>52722514
Hmm I remember reading in seers book something like minister having one direction hotline from Exarch to his brain. But if I'm correct(might be mistaken don't have book on me) Ministers were archmasters themselves

>>52722549
I thought Seer Archmasters were called Thearchs or whatever. But I haven't read Seers yet so what do I know?

>>52720110
So if I turned Luna into my waifu using Spirit 9, could I convert the whole world to waifuism as well? Would madness be enough?

I might as well just get a Mind 9 Archmage.

>>52722604
Tetrarchs are the guys but If i remember correct the Tetrarch tanding at the top of the ministry is(obviously) called Minister

>>52722613
Why are archmagefags obsessed with wives the size of gods?

So, how many archmages with 7+ dots in anything actually exist?

If it's more than just a couple you'd think the world would have been torn apart by now by their various autisms.

>>52722613
There are never more than a hundred Seekers at a single time according to Imperial Mysteries. I wonder how rare Gnosis 9 would be in proportion to that number. We only know of Kadmon the Gardener, the Corpus Author and the actual Merlin from legend.

>>52722692
Well most of the time they are stuck in Mexican standoff with each other. Tetrarchs probably have most direct influence but everyone and their dog tries to backstab them

>>52722692
The Pax prevents Imperial autism from overtaking us all, duh.

>>52722693
>Kadmon the Gardener
Really cool dude trying to breed out humanity. I wish we had official artwork for him and not just some vague description.

>>52711104
THAT MAGEFAG DIDNT MAKE YOU OBESE FATFUCK

>>52721222
Mary fucking Sue

>>52722651
If you dont have the giantess fetish why bother staying on this earth.

>>52722039
When your wife is dry as sand and you need to ask chad the life mage to make you a fuckable gf.
>also he wont make a loli gf becuz only death mages are pedos

>>52721986
Wolf fags have tiny knots. Its why they are desperate to date outside their race.

>>52721898
I think daveb knows physics better than your college prof, pleb

>>52722855
Chad the life mage sounds like a saddest person in Consila

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If Spirit 9 is enough to bend rank 8-9 (not sure about 10) gods to your will, would it also allow the respective Archmage to manipulate the Shadow as a whole?

Like, could I change how spirits function in there and alter the tangibility of the realm itself? I have an idea for an upcoming Forsaken Chronicle regarding this.

>>52720490
Yeah your gameline is becoming hot trash and get ready for 3e.

>>52722855
>>52722915

Chad's a douche

>Free Council

Any non thyrsus that takes life legacies is a powergaming faggot.

>>52722480

Sometimes dreams, sometimes Ochemata, sometimes messages written in tealeaves or any other form of divination.

>>52722929
Transfiguration specifically allows you to do anything within the bounds of the Arcana being used, for a short duration but with infinite results. You are omnipotent in a limited sense.

So yes, you could do all of that. The mechanics are as-is. Some of us here are going to deny it as though it were heresy though.

>>52722929
>>52723038
The Practices of Entities or Excision should theoretically be enough, depending on how extreme the changes would be, wouldn't they?

>>52722929
In theory yes, but in practice you run into all the same roadblocks as you do trying to manipulate a rank 8 spirit.

>>52723067
By that logic it would only require 7 dots to take on Luna and similar beings.

>>52723083
To be fair, there wouldn't be any roadblocks other than a massive Pax violation. Spirit 9 is probably the biggest counter to any rank 8 spirit god.

>>52723113
The road blocks are actually becoming an archmaster, getting up to that level, and then gathering quintessence. I mean yeah on paper those are all things that someone can do, in universe those are all borderline impossible tasks.
Also other things, like in universe why would anyone ever want to do that, and assuming that werewolves actually exist in said mage verse.
And what that pax violation amounts to is that if anyone ever has the will and the means to do something like that, they get killed as a child by a time traveling mage.

>>52721898
Electrons don't interact with the strong force dawg.

>>52721898
>>52723240
>Physics
>>>/x/
Am I doing the /sci/ meme right?

>>52718656

No, a stationary computer has never exploded from 'spiking cpu usage and disabling fans'. There's nothing explosive in them. Laptops, ok, theoretically possible to increase the RISK of a battery 'exploding', which is really more just igniting violently.

>>52723172
>The road blocks are actually becoming an archmaster, getting up to that level, and then gathering quintessence
Those aren't roadblocks assuming the Archmage in-question already has the necessities required.

> in universe those are all borderline impossible tasks
Nothing is impossible when Archmagic is in play. Transfiguration is 'do whatever pleases you' regarding the specific Arcana.

I can agree that it would never happen, but an Archmaster is entirely capable of fucking Luna over.

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I was tickled last night that /tg/ had a discussion on the levels of /a/ 10 years ago. Y'all are just as bad as Typemoonfags.

>>52723305
Zelretch > Arcueid > Gilgamesh

come at me

>>52723290
We've already discussed ad nauseam that it is theoretically possible for mages to do such a task but the "real world" practical implications of doing such a thing make it virtually impossible to pull off.

>>52723290
>Those aren't roadblocks assuming the Archmage in-question already has the necessities required.
Oh I know, I'm just pointing out that this is mostly theoretical talk since there are only supposed to be so many archmages in all of history. Like this isn't some 'fuck up any god in these ten easy steps' some people seem to get confused about
And I know archmagic can do anything, getting there is the issue though. Honestly if someone manages to pull off whatever bullshit quest it takes to gather quintessence like that, most likely fighting off basically every high power being whos trying to stop him, they fucking deserve it.

Since we're talking about Archmages. Since multi-degree masters are rare (mastery of 3+ arcana is erroneously considered near archmage in power by the pentacle). How 'common' is multi-degree archmastery?

Are there 6+ degree arch masters sick of the supernal war who've retreated to their chantries to while away the eons in a magical holodeck?

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>Giest is further along than changeling
YO WHAT THE FUCK

>>52723335
The "real world" practical implications being the Pax, nothing more.

Why do you think the world still exists as it is?

>>52723357
It's thanks to the glory of our Komodo dragon prophet peace be upon him.

>>52723339
I always imagined that 90% of all archmasters are superconfused fresh guys/gala that try to avoid getting nuked by the other 10%

>>52723339
This isn't theoretical. The way Transfiguration works makes it a certainty, but won't ever actually happen due to the cold war of the cosmos, AKA the Pax Arcana.

Having the bigger gun doesn't mean you're going to use it, even though you know for a fact that you could.

>>52723371
I'm confused, we have previews out the fucking ass for changeling. Like we know 90% of the contracts, all the seemings and kiths and whatever, pledges and oaths. But we know fuck all about giest.

>>52723354
The named Archmasters in Imperial Mysteries have multiple Arcana exceeding five dots.

>>52723305
It would be funny to me if it didn't happen every other thread.

>>52723421
You know I at least would have thought they'd do antagonists previews. Giest was pretty good all around, its main problem was having no central antagonist or driving force for conflict.

>>52723290
>assuming the Archmage in-question already has the necessities required.
This assumption obviates the entire downside to Imperial magic, so sure. If you just handwave all the drawbacks, then Archmages always win.

>>52723483
Maybe bill leaveing set them back on something?

>>52723467
Are you the eurofag / werefag who raged over the deluded notion that Imperial Mysteries wasn't canon?

>>52722316
Why in the hell did you save that as a pdf?

In an older thread someone mentioned a sourcebook that went into more detail about what exists inside the gauntlet. Does anyone know what it is?

>>52723512
Hill fuckin autocorrect

>>52723499
There is nothing to handwave, as we're assuming everything has already been dealt with.

>>52722549
>Hmm I remember reading in seers book something like minister having one direction hotline from Exarch to his brain.
Yes, and it slowly burns out the Minister's identity and individuality and absorbs them into their Exarch's symbology.

>>52723533
I don't know who what is, but if it really is further along than changeling it wouldn't matter would it? They could still at least drop some fluff showing why giests don't sit around doing fuck all anymore. Unless they just didn't change it.

>>52723499
>nine dots
Check
>quintessence
Check
>hubris
Check

Everything has been accounted for, good anon.

>>52723305

Considering how Type-moon seems like WoD with serial numbers filed off and a whole lot of Japanese craziness replacing WoD's American craziness, it's not really surprising.

>>52723357

You fuckers got like ten books and we didn't get jack shit. It's our time now, lil fairy nigga.

>>52723545
Wonder how many archmasters they burned through already

>>52723607
Unknowable. The exarchs probably change reality on a whim.

>>52723606
I'm not complaining I'm just surprised. I thought changeling was already like half done by the time giest even got decided on.

>casts spell of omnipotence over all things spirit
>turns luna into a dildo
>werefags freak the fuck out
>"NUH UHH YOU CAN'T DO THAT"
>mechanics say you can

You people are fucking gross. I'd rather take arrogant assdouches (magefags) over zealous deniers (werefags) Jesus Christ to God.

>>52723671
>Helios proceeds to pay you 50 bucks for the Luna dildo

>>52723527
It starts on page 61 of Summoners.
>Sample Gauntlet-Dweller: Vergeling
>Spell that lets you look inside it
One of the best 1e books.

>>52723671
Welcome to the life of a magefaggot, synonymous with atheism against theism.

>>52723518
>depicting werefags as fat anime-eared weebs is a good thing
?
how is a book not canon

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>>52723737
we get it, can we talk about something else now?

>>52723671
Nobody's been saying they can't do that.

They've been saying Luna can do the same grade of shit to the Archmaster, without prep time.

>>52723792
and then mages have been saying "that doesn't matter because muh transfiguration" and we get it lets move on now.
god damn i never thought I would miss pronoun fights

>>52723792
No one here is contesting that, though the previous argument of 'quality vs quantity' still stands. Luna's purview and influence is relatively thin compared to even a single Arcana.
Madness is but a facet of Mind, for instance.

What's better? A machine gun or a rocket launcher? It depends on the target.

>>52723832
b-but the machine gun can shoot rockets out of the air!

>>52723832
>Madness is but a facet of Mind, for instance.
Or change, which is a sliver of nearly half the Arcana. The moon would correspond to both Forced and Matter.

In all actuality, Gods have an easier time to do what they do, but Archmages can pull off much more powerful effects. The Spirit Arcanum is all encompassing, while the Gods are just not.

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>>52720110
>Geist is farther along than Changeling
D E V E L O P M E N T
H E L L

>>52723832
>>52723892
inb4 "NOPE MADNESS MEANS EVERYTING REGARDING MIND KEK LOL"

You can't argue with deniers and religious spergs, especially ones obsessed with knots and gods.

>>52723735
This is really cool. I'm going to write a story arc about the world between worlds.

>>52723941
Can't we pretty much run it right now thanks to all the previews they put out?

>>52723963
Why would you, 1E is better :^)

>>52723792
>They've been saying Luna can do the same grade of shit to the Archmaster

How does her influence equate to the Arcana though?

>>52723941
>Development Hill

>mages continue to argue over a topic that's 24 hours old despite the debate being settled
yep, gone full circle back to magefags being the insufferable ones

>>52723941
Speaking of development hell, this is probably the right place to ask: Has there been any news on trinity 2e? I know we got like one or two more previews for scion but I haven't heard any news on the trinity front.

>>52723994
Nothing has settled, to be honest.

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>>52723988

>>52723994
What was the consensus? Luna or the Archmage?

>>52724007
your ST will decide whether or not you can ascend to archmastery, obtain the proper quintessence, and whether or not you can take down the moon, or not, because I doubt people who sit here all day and argue the topic are actually playing the game.

>>52723962
Also check out Dark Ages Neolithic era featuring Mages, Werewolves, and what the Gauntlent use to be, Pangea.

>>52724100
Round 1 : No Preparation
Winner : Lunna

Round 2 : Preparation
Winner : Archmage

I would rather argue over a dance off.

>>52724100
having just spent the last hour or so reading over everything the idea i got is that its mechanically possible but has a bunch of hoops to jump through which make it unlikely

>>52723972
Yeah but the 1e core rules aren't very good. Also flavorful unique powers are better than the almost excursively dice bonuses they get in 1e

>>52724110
You don't ascend to Archmastery. You pass the Threshold.

>>52724130
There are no hoops once you reach nine dots and acquire the relevant Quintessence.

That's the entire point the magefags are making.

what is with the nonstop shitflinging on these threads

I sort of feel like the Abyss comes across a Zoroastrianist utimate force of evil duel to and equal to the force of good of the supernal world. I don't like this. Is there a way around this when storytelling?

>>52720490

Mummy.
You're missing Mummy.

And while I'm hoping it gets a 2e someday, I also hope it isn't soon. It might just get ruined by incompetence or by 5+ pages on Gender Dysphoria where only one would suffice.

>>52724185
Standard 4chan autism.

>>52724185
It started when people tried denying that an Archmage could personally duel Luna into submission.

It's not the strangest thing that has happened to us. The Aspel plague was far worse.

>>52724200
I was only going over 2e material. Mummy very well might be a thing, but as of this exact moment it hasn't been announced to be getting a 2e conversion so far as I know.

>>52724129
So an Archmaster wins when prepped.

How is this news whatsoever?

>>52724180
and it is well stated a million fucking times. but the hoops make killing her more of an epilogue to a massive campaign than just a "minor inconvenience"
...assuming these people actually play the game and just dont argue about who is the strongest super saiyan all day

>>52724200
Gender politics is absolutely critical to pen and paper roll playing and must take up a minimum of 5 pages of space. You can get rid of petty trivial things like rules about encumbrance or fatigue.

>>52724248
After all, mummies come from a different time period and not calling by the royal zxhey/zxhar would be offensive

>>52724248
>rules about encumbrance or fatigue
HOW DO YOU CUT THESE, a horror setting is helped by a scarcity of resources, no system to make that scarcity have impact is just silly.

>>52724246
If the Archmage decided to grant himself the ability to 'stare down gods until they die', it will damn well be a minor inconvenience.

Spirit 9 is just that. Anything you want.

>>52724284
>If the Archmage decided to grant himself the ability to 'stare down gods until they die', it will damn well be a minor inconvenience.
>Spirit 9 is just that. Anything you want.
Making that alteration to yourself wouldn't even be a violation of the Pax. Though using the resulting power might be.

>>52724246
Play games? You mean social interactions with real people? What kind of self respecting autistic man child would do that?

>>52724277
Shitty editing. Still fucking annoys me.

>>52724304
>Not being an autism and LARPing in silly costumes because you are too tarded to be embarrassed for yourself.

>>52724284
please reread the sections on quintessence, particularly the one about transfiguration being a monumental task on the level of the difficultquintessence required to first break the threshold.
if that's a minor inconvenience to your character, your ST is doing a very shitty job of storytelling

>>52724218

Fair enough then, my bad.

>>52724320
The shitty editing is one thing that the Whitewolf label will probably never escape from.

>>52724326
We're assuming the Archmage in question already has the Quintessence, you dingbat.

>>52724321
I have LARPed on three occasions

1.) Vampire mind's eye game, it was people trying to enact a very shitty version of Game of Thrones, rarely any combat, more just people hanging out demanding to be called by stupid titles.

2.) oWoD Shifter. Never again. Basically furfags acting out furfantasies and running off to yiff with each other. Sad, because I could tell the ST wanted to do a story.

3.) Mortal/Sighted. This was actually pretty fun because people took it seriously. Strolling around town at night, while the ST narrated the Strange Shit we came across. We all ended up dead though, and the game didn't continue. They moved on to some other system.

>>52724326
It's a monumental task to acquire the necessities, not in the act of actually casting it.

As a point reminder, Quintessence isn't necessarily used up in the process. The severed head of a Fallen god doesn't just go 'poof' gone.

>>52724363
when you replied to me, i was not. please stop making assumptions

>>52724284
This is what people don't seem to get. The effects Transfiguration can be absolutely permanent.

If you wanted to imbue yourself with the ability to confront and kill Luna, you could indeed do so.
Likewise, you could enchant your voice to rewrite the Hedge and Arcadia.

The influences of the gods are far more limited, but far thicker with ease.

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>>52724467
What other people don't seem to get is when people mention the difficulty and the process to get to there. We get it. It's possible. But some of us are concerned about the storytelling aspect leading up to that point in a storytelling system.
I bet the magefags here couldn't even describe what kind of a quintessence would be needed to fuck Luna's craterpussy.

>>52724545
>I bet the magefags here couldn't even describe what kind of a quintessence would be needed to fuck Luna's craterpussy.
Such a question cannot be conceivably inquired as each Quintessence Is unique in and of itself.

Mage players (mostly) aren't stupid, but they would need a whole backstory to answer your question.

>>52724662
Sure it can. The book gives some examples of what could be quintessence for a spell. Of course obtaining it would be a story in and of itself, but at the end of the day you can still sum it up.

>>52724277

Fatigue sure, but I've never seen a horror film where a victim dies because they were carrying a backpack that was just one point over what they could carry. Usually, they just trip.

Not that I'm arguing that there should be cut, mind. But overencumberance is hardly an essential quality for horror.

>>52724200

You know that already happened in Mummy 1e and it wasn't five pages long, right?

>>52724793
Yes, however it's hardly a matter of finding an extraordinary macguffin and expecting it to work wonders for your lofty cosmic obsessions.

It needs to be symbolic with your very being. Archmasters (most especially the Siddha) regularly "chain" Imperial spells to produce the Quintessence that truly resonates with them.

The examples given are just that. Examples.

>>52724876
So... you have no example. Okay. Thanks for proving the point.

>>52724901
He/she just gave you a valid and mechanical standpoint as to why inquiring such examples can't be a given, some of which have already been described in Imperial Mysteries.

How very mature of you, anon.

>>52723976
It's not as broad, but it's just as powerful as the Archmasters' biggest bullshit powers and is significantly easier and quicker to do. When the competition is "who strikes first/catches their opponent with their pants down", "easier and quicker" beats "broader applications but no more powerful and much more of a pain in the ass to set up".

>>52724180
Reaching nine dots and, especially, acquiring the relevant Quintessence IS the hoops. "There are no hoops to jump through if you assume you've already jumped through every necessary hoop" isn't even an argument.

>>52725085
>but it's just as powerful as the Archmasters' biggest bullshit powers and is significantly easier and quicker to do
The former is false, the latter is correct.

>When the competition is "who strikes first/catches their opponent with their pants down", "easier and quicker" beats "broader applications but no more powerful and much more of a pain in the ass to set up"
It's more a question of preparation.
See >>52724129

>>52724970
No, it's actually pretty simple, coming from the point of a storyteller. You just briefly summarize the kind of journey that would be required for the quintessence. It's a cop-out response when there's no actual response they're able to provide.

Something as simple as "an arduous journey through the ancient world where the shadow and the physical almost blend together, discovering the point where a long-lost glade growing from the spot where the seed of Father Wolf spilled out from Luna's dripping craters once he had bred the shit out of her." "That's how I'll turn Luna into my little silver sex slut."

>>52725104
If you're assuming no living Archmaster has ever acquired the key Quintessence(s) to muster Transfiguration, you are sorely mistaken.

>>52725135
Nobody's assuming that, stop implying shit that isn't there.

The only implication is that "most mages aren't going to get through the hoops needed to reach that level."

>>52725120
The symbolism behind the Quintessence is fundamentally explicit, it's the seeking itself that equates to it and allows the Seeker to even cast it. Acquiring it is not a simple matter.

This is what you are misunderstanding.

>>52725135
Not the person you're arguing with, but when I read Imperial Mysteries I got the distinct impression that you needed to gather Quintessences EVERY time you want to cast Transfiguration, not just when you first get the dot rating and then you can just cast "Do Anything" whenever.

>>52725177
I don't even know what you're getting at then. You're speaking the obvious at this point.

The hoops are synonymous with the journey to discover the Quintessence needed to cast Transfiguration, not in the act itself.

>>52725191
Not necessarily so, it depends on the Quintessence in question. The corpse of a fallen Watchtower isn't going to vanish, for instance.

How are we still arguing about this?

>>52725254
Autism

>>52725254
The Luna vs Archmage debate has been settled, with the latter winning based on prep, and the former when it doesn't come to that.

We're currently discussing Quintessence at the moment.

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>>52725187
No, I'm not misunderstanding it. Stop giving these shitty cop-out responses. It is a system meant to be told by a storyteller. Meaning, one can give an example of how an example mage would go about acquiring a quintessence. Kind of like how the book gives a fucking example of how to break the Threshold.

Just admit your an uninspired fuck who can't come up with even a basic plot synopsis for a mage you've thought up. Unimaginative is a sign of autism, which explain your incessant need for powerlevel discussions.

>>52725191
>>52725227
The Quintessence for a particular spell doesn't disappear on casting. That particular Quintessence isn't a catch all for ALL spells of that level, however.

>>52725288
>your
>you're

While silly to acknowledge, it's the little errors like these that refute my ability to take you seriously.

>>52725288
The symbolism behind Quintessence(s) is literally explicit.

How are you this evasive?

>>52725338
It is silly to acknowledge, because you refuse to acknowledge the actual point being made. You're (see, people goof up every now and then :^) ) attempting to divert attention from your inability to provide a simple response.

Thank you for admitting that you have no response of substance for the question at hand. I'm glad we got that debate over with.

>>52725358
>asking for a direct response
>this is being evasive
>not criticizing the guy literally dodging the question
Okay faggot. But, it doesn't matter anymore. The anon has already acknowledged he can't answer it.

>>52725288
>eurofag
>Frenchman
>fucking frog

You have been shitting up the last three threads. You need to die.

>>52725398
Why would he even need to make a story for your own benefit? That's fucking retarded.

>can't imagine anything
>must be inferior to me
>hurdurdur

>>52725410
Projecting much?

>>52725431
Because the statement he was responding to was this:
>I bet the magefags here couldn't even describe what kind of a quintessence would be needed to fuck Luna's craterpussy.
Saying inane bullshit like "y-yeah i can believe me it's just soooo hard!"

Try clicking on the post numbers, it takes you back through all the replies.

>>52725378
The sad thing is, you are the one dragging the conversation on at this point.

No one needs to appease your ideals of creativity, as it won't even support anything you're spewing.

>>52725457
Could you try rephrasing your post?

>>52724188

The Abyss is not evil, nor is it good. The abyss is simply much larger than once was, filled with twisted shards of a million realities shattered in the fall, desperate to claim some sort of truth from the fallen world to try and make themselves whole again, in spite of the impossibility of achieving this. Dangerous, pitiful, destructive, and best not trifled with, but not evil.

The Supernal is not good, nor is it evil. The supernal lies within the self, yet is a realm apart. It is human imagination and will writ large, communicated through the language of ideas, symbols, and beliefs. Every human action has it's place in the supernal, no matter how good or wicked. The lie - well, the lie is what they keep from the fallen world. Trying to describe it is like trying to describe the color klorp - a color even archmasters can percieve but dimly, or explain how male homosexuality is necessary for human reproduction but lesbianism isn't needed for the process to work. These truths and many more are truths the universe has lost the symbols to explain.

>>52725457
Are you saying that the act of acquiring Quintessence isn't difficult? That's counterproductive to the goddamn book.

Or is that not what you were getting at? Your post is hard to read.

>>52725467
You're right, no one needs to appease it. But it just further proves the point that these autistic magefags who keep arguing over power levels can't come up with a simple, one-line sentence summarizing a story to obtain a quintessence for whatever magic they're powerwanking about right now. Even though the book is filled with numerous examples of this.

>>52725497
>>52725518
Just ignore the European. He has been doing this for three fucking threads.

The frog even tried arguing that the Imperial Mysteries don't exist as of 2e, despite the actual Developer actually stating such.

>>52725497
>>52725518
Click back through the posts. Reread what was said. It's not a fucking difficult process. The amount of spoonfeeding being asked for in this thread is insane.

>>52725521
Why would they need to spend further time on something they already have proof for?

You are insufferable. Absolute fucking vomit.

>>52725546
Your posts are hard to read as it is. You probably suck at French too.

>>52725538
I'm not that guy though it was funny to read. Why would a book not exist?

It's sunny where I am right now. Which isn't France.

>>52725546
>The amount of spoonfeeding being asked for in this thread is insane.

The only one being spoon fed is you, and you keep puking it back up. You don't need examples of Quintessence when they've already been given in the god-fucking book.

Do you need proof that god doesn't exist too?

>>52725573
Your English is probably dogshit you ESL beaner.

>>52725590
>Do you need proof that god doesn't exist too?

As a proud jesusfaggot I am triggered by this. I will first need example of how he does not exist. Go.

>>52723606
I honestly prefer type moon mages over wod mages when it comes to interacting with the univese, so i port them over whenever i need mages in a owod game i run.

They just feel more thematically fitting with the other races and splats when you compare them to normal wod mages which might as well exist as its own seperate game line seperated from wod as a whole.

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>>52725590
> You don't need examples of Quintessence when they've already been given in the god-fucking book.
Holy fuck you are as retarded as I thought. That or you're doing some expert-level baitcrafting here.

I'm not asking for examples of what quintessence is.

I said that magefags could not come up with an example of a quintessence for making Luna a sex slave.

Learn to fucking read for christ sake.

>>52725629
Sums up the above fucktard rather nicely.

>>52725659
We don't need to write stories for your amusement. How is this even a basis for your argument?

I might as well just say I grabbed Luna's soaked tampon and be done with it.

>>52725629

Absence of evidence is evidence of absence until demonstrated otherwise. No amount of apologetic babble or theological masturbation can serve as proof.

>>52725655

Type-Moon mages feel way too kludgey for me to see them as a worthwhile replacement, but that's true of type-moon in general.

>>52725659
That's pretty much an example of a Quintessence, in case you don't know how they work.

>>52725502
That is not borne out mechanically.

>Wisdom 1–3, Low / Falling (1 die): Hubris of this level concerns all mages. A mage at this precipice could be lost to his magic at any time. Only the darkest, most selfishly destructive acts risk degeneration at this point. Killing someone in a fit of rage, destroying an Awakened soul, allowing a Supernal being to be consumed by the Fallen World, or dealing with the Abyss can force the mage through her final loss of Wisdom.

Dealing with the Abyss is always an Act of Hubris.

Ok, so if Archmages can beat up Luna.

Could they also beat up the God-Machine?

>>52725686
>We don't need to write stories for your amusement. How is this even a basis for your argument?
Because the response was "Yeah huh I can!"
>Okay, go ahead.
"I don't need to write stories for you amusement! Just believe me! No really, REALLY believe me. I don't have to prove anything just BELIEVE ME."

That would be more than what any of these faggots here were capable of doing. Instead we just got a hundred posts about how the process of getting quintessence is so spooky and mysterious and so hard to describe.

Despite, as you just said in your post, the book giving us plenty of examples.

>>52725739
Why would they? An Archmage could have been responsible for its very existence.

The Exarchs are also the fundaments to its upkeep.

>>52725590
>Do you need proof that god doesn't exist too?
You have to prove that god exists. Just like magefags need to prove they can write a decent story.

Because I don't have to prove that they can't.

>>52725746
Belief? This isn't a matter of belief. We have actual damn mechanics.

You are trying so fucking hard to dissuade your own bias. I'm guessing the Imperial Practices don't exist despite having a hundred pages published all about them?

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ITT
Magecucks being magecucks. god I love this kind of faggotery, but for the life of me I wish we had a different flavor every once and a while

Amazed by how retarded anti-Magefags can be.

>>52725774
>I'm guessing the Imperial Practices don't exist despite having a hundred pages published all about them?
What the fuck are you even going on about now? They're in the god-damn book. Which you keep repeatedly proving that you can not, have not, and/or will not read.

Are you just trying to be deliberately retarded now that you've been called out at being an uninspired retard?

>>52725746
So you need an actual story to convince yourself that it's possible for a super wizard to buttrape Luna?

>>52725796
You're being baited, anon.

>>52725735

Because dealing with the abyss is by nature terminally stupid, not because of it being "evil." Poisonous snakes arent evil, nor is the ebola virus, but i'm not going to go chug bathwater from sierra leone regardless of what you offer me.

Supernal beings can't last in the fallen world because the truths that sustain them aren't all present

>Killing someone in a fit of rage

If it doesn't involve the use of magic, it shouldn't cost you your last point. Don't care what the book says. Fuck integrity+ morality systems.

>>52725746
It's more like "I can write it out, but why should I bother with you?"

Not hard to understand why. Who wants to deal with you?

>>52725827
is right.
>>52725809
is being deliberately retarded to bait posts by me. Sorry. Let's shitpost about something else now.

>>52725714
I feel like type moon mages actually jave the horror aspects built in that wod thrives on in comparison to mage who dont have that feeling as a whole.

Type moon mages also are alot more down to earth and limited with their powers, but because how their magic system works there is still a huge amount of variety, and more importantly reasons for them to interact with the mainline universe as a whole indtead of wandering off into their own planes of existence

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>>52725841
>"I can prove God doesn't exists, but why should I bother? Who wants to deal with you?

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>>52725869
I would think the proof of the non-existence of God would be fairly evident to the intelligent.

>>52725848
A sufficiently powered Archmage will 1v1 Luna like Goku vs Superman and fucking destroy her.

Nothing retarded about it. Goku is Luna, and Superman is the Archmage. Of course Superman beats Goku, so of course the Archmage beats Luna.

Problem?

>>52725830
Poisonous snakes have reasons for attacking humans (they are scared or want to eat them.)

(Intelligent) abyssal entities don't really have a reason to attack the world and mages.

>>52725929
anon we already did this one last thread time for a new bait topic

>>52725929
You're just going to turn this into DC vs Anime. Shut up.

Even though Superman wins.

Spring court is objectively the best court, prove me wrong.

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>>52721898
All i got out of that was Mass and Effect.

Not really, i mostly understood i just wanted to be shit

>>52725934

Because they want what they can't have.

Because they hate the cosmos for not including them.

Because it's part of their nature.

That doesn't make it ok,

>>52725966
But Goku is a gag character.

>>52725929
Superman can't beat a Super Saiyan God we already had this proven when Beerus the strongest entity in the galaxy and God of Destruction fought him to a draw

>>52725929
The only way the Archmage is going to annihilate Luna is if he/she is prepared with Transfiguration effects. Other than that, the Archmage is dead.

But yes, there would be no possible way for Luna to beat a Spirit 9 Archmage with preptime.

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>>52725968
Spring Court is for catbois and fujoshi whores, every mush is riddled with sex-addicted smut authors

>>52725993
Superman can literally fight omniversal threats, buddy. The strongest thinks in DBZverse have destroyed stars and planets, while Zeno is limited to single universes.

>>52725929
So it comes down to authors needlysly jerking off someone elses creation, inflating their powers untill their a hollow shell of what the characer originally stood for and needlysly invalidating other heros and storylines for no sensible reason other than projecting a your own personal powertrip

>>52725982
I'm not sure how that makes them worse to deal with than many of the other monsters in the world of darkness.

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>>52726025
everyanon knows supes is shit tier writing

>>52726025
*unzips kryptonite katana*
*instant transmissions behind superman*
psh... nothin personell

>>52726018
Nice post. To bad its nothing but stupid stereotypes. Spring court is about enjoying being human now that you're back, it can be just as much about doing fun human things like some roller blade rink as it can be about fucking.

>>52725968
>Not playing a creepy Autumn Wizard who knows everything so people have to put up with you even though you keep people's bodies in your hallow.

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>>52726048
I think it would be fairly evident that Spirit 9 trumps any rank 8-9 god of the Shadow, anon.

Luna's purview can't defend against something so all-encompassing, sorry.

So how powerful ARE Geists? And what exactly are they again?

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>>52726083
>Wanting to play an anti socail loser nerd who most people hate but barely put up with, probably setting yourself up to get shived someday
>Not just playing a person who enjoys finally being in the human world again and who is liked by most people

I'm actually going to lean towards the left and agree with the magefags here. Luna's influence is too slim to hold a flame to the entirety of the Spirit Arcanum at omnipotent levels.

>>52724467 also summed it up rather nicely. How is a god going to survive something specifically designed to kill gods? This goes for the Gentry as well.

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>>52726069
It's supposed to be, and maybe in a tabletop game it is. But on the online text-based games it's generally populated by the "massage parlor owners", "high class courtesans", and other ERP smut shenanigan concepts. And they're always overweight women in their 30s pretending to be teen models. I have quite a few skype pictures...

>>52722316
I like the very last line

>>52726102
As far as I know they're spirit ghosts who pick a mortal to share a body with or something.

>>52726132
Being a normal person in a LARP is so boring. Its way more fun with everyone trying to kill you for collapsing the Summer Hallow with a bolder because you think the Monarch is working for your keeper.

>>52726102
Geists are strong, would be right under the 'big three' in terms of ability.

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>people keep trying to revive the discussion
>the individual poster count doesnt go up
L E T I T D I E

>>52726163
Really? How? What's their mechanics that match Arcana or whatever mad shit Mummies get?

>>52726163
Really? What can they do?

>>52726166
It has been months. Magefaggotry is not going anywhere.

When someone defies their expectations things go very VERY badly.

>>52726085
K show me the rolls

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POWER WORD: SIDEBARS

Look at how disgusting this crap is!

>>52726181
>>52726184
I didn't say they would match them, I said they were right under them.

A Moros is for all intents and purposes still a superior dealer of the dead & damned.

>>52726202
He's gonna have that story told whether he likes it or not. Its obviously in the core book for a reason.

>>52726205
Okay, better question then. What do they have that lets them feed werewolves and vampires their own buttocks?

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>>52726189
Your intelligence is clearly subpar in comparison to my own.

>>52726186
The best way to deal with magefags is to ignore them and just accept that they're usually right. The mechanics and themes of their game shamelessly back them up, so if you jump at their bait you've basically already lost, and they'll keep hammering at you until you're reduced to a gibbering pile of autism in denial. See the Luna vs Archmage and Caine/Antediluvian vs Archmage arguments for reference.

>>52726222
Is this a trick question? Vampires are meant to be bullied. Werewolves are meant to be fucked.

>>52726221
Not telling the story of a pregnant male werewolf is sexist and problematic!!

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>>52719760
I recently took advantage of this Break Your Own News meme to show off what my players did in a last month in a Vampire Masquerade session.

>Sabbat needs to rescue one of their own from a convent full of Hunters
>Camarilla tries to protect the Masquerade as best they can afterwards

>>52726205
That doesn't answer my question though. What are their powers and shit?

Serious Mage question if we can stop shitposting for a second. How do the arcana function in alternate realms like twilight or the shadow/astral/underworlds?

If say a mastigos without spirit dots gets stuck in twilight or shadow can he still teleport around?

>>52726136
>He doesn't erp in all his sessions
My first changeling character is going to be a fairest pretty boy who just wants to make friends and is eager to show his enthusiasm.
>>52726158
>Becoming a self sustaining paranoia machine by constantly doing crazier and crazier things to make more enemies to make yourself more paranoid
You have fun with that

>>52726271
NOT SHITPOSTY ENOUGH

>>52726265
Their powers are pretty much limitless. Masters can cause aggravated damage from a distance, Life mages can boost their stats to levels that you'd have to be Primal Urge 7+ for, and Spirit mages can cross the Gauntlet so easily it makes Werewolves look like retarded puppies when they try.

>>52726230
K show me your stat sheet

>>52726289
Not Mages you idiot, Geists. What can Spooky Jojos actually DO with their powers?

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>>52726247

>>52726272
>You have fun with that
I did! 10/10 out smarting dozens of people at a time with magic was great. After a few months the entire summer court finally brought me down in a chase through the hedge. And right after I saved them all from a keeper too.

>>52726289
I meant Geists, anon. What are the powers of a Geist?

>>52726302
Geists are just shitty mages. :^)

>>52726247
I haven't seen a single productive point made implying that Luna would survive an onslaught brought upon by a Spirit 9 Archmage.
Yet the mages have brought up legitimate proposals for their own argument.

This is a matter of denial and disregard.

>>52726102
Giest as in the entity that attaches itself to human, or the person you actually play?

HOLY FUCKING HELL.

YES A SPIRIT ARCHMAGE SHITS ALL OVER LUNA. WE FUCKING GET IT. I'M ON YOUR SIDE. THE MECHANICS DON'TFUCKING LIE.

BE DONE WITH IT.

>>52726271
That's a good question. I'm no authority on the subject but I would say being in another realm like that messes with your sympathetic connections, meaning Space wouldn't be of much help. Other magic can be used normally though, of that I'm fairly sure.

Of course I could be wrong, but that's how I would rule it.

ANOTHER ANON HERE. WE AGREE. YOU CAN POUND LUNA'S TIGHT MOON CHEESE WITH YOUR THROBBING MAGICAL COCK.

L E T
I T
D I E

>>52726363
>BE DONE WITH IT

Hardly possible when idiots love to refute it.

Spirit 9 is absolute fucking omnipotence over all things spirit.

How are you guys this fucking retarded?

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>>52726297
Got you covered anon.

Is Luna even hot enough to be worth it?

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N-Nuh uh. Luna is invulnerable. Magic wouldn't affect her, she's a god.

>>52726202

Werewolf butt babies definitely needed a sidebar that could have been used for anything else.

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>>52726417
She was hot enough for a giant wolf god to fuck her so hard she pumped out nine puppies.

>>52726402
A-Are you saying that Luna would lose to an Archmage of Spirit?

S-Stop saying such disgusting lies. I will fight you! I will!

>>52726417
You know the saying 'don't stick your dick in crazy'? The reason why it exists is because nothing is as much fun as fucking crazy consequences be damned. Now imagine what it would be like to fuck the spirit of crazy.

>>52726451
How is Luna going to compete against "DO WHATEVER THE FUCK YOU WANT TO SPIRITS" ...?

This is why you people are fucking retarded. Luna's purview is so fucking limited in comparison.

>>52726456
Well, the saying has addendum:
If you do stick your dick in the crazy despite the above warning, don't pull out 'til her pupils turn heart-shaped.

People responding so quickly to one another.

The edge is real.

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>>52726464
S-She's not just any old spirit! She's a special spirit!

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ENOUGH. ENOUGH ABOUT SPIRIT ARCHMASTERS DEFEATING LUNA.


Can a Fate Archmaster defeat a True Fae?

>>52726516
I hate to break it to you but a Fate master can probably beat a True Fae anywhere except Arcadia.

>>52726516
Fate 9 could rewrite the entirety of the Wyrd, thus enslaving the infinite scores of Gentry within Arcadia.

The Gentry are also explicitly weaker than Luna individually. They're rank 7 while she's rank 8.

>>52726516
Defeat? I don't know probably.

Make their 'life' utter misery?
Most certainly,

>>52726250

>he doesn't fuck vampires over in syndicate trade deals and shit-talk werewolves into harano with a mind-backed cool story

"Do you know the difference between our species and ours? Your "Garou Nation?" It occured to me as I studied your history - your entire history is a record of atrocity and failure. There is nothing redeeming about your story. Humanity can learn from it's mistakes and move on, and thanks to us, we can even try to learn from the mistakes of others. You - you can't even learn from your own mistakes even though you're supposedly aware of them. You keep making the same fucking mistake over and over and over again. Truth is, you're just as much monsters as the fucked up mutants Pentex pumps out. You had your chance. You failed. It's our time now."

>>52726545
Don't forget to use your magic to instill an ability to suffer just in case they don't have a deal with that already.

>>52726516
I might have slight rape fantasy when it comes to the True Fae.

Am I a sick person?

>>52726613
Depends are you a grill?

>>52726613
>Am I a sick person?
If you have to ask...

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>>52726553
IMPERGIUM GOOD
RED TALON GAROU SUPREME
DIE HUMAN PIGDOGS

I'm new to WoD and the GM keeps trying to get me to hand my blood over to a Tremere. What are they up to?

>>52726641
He makes a compelling argument.

http://www.strawpoll.me/12756020

>>52726622
I am gender neutral.

>>52726673
Normally I'd say you're a faggot, but as a Changeling being gender neutral might actually be a thing.

>>52726136

In my online game the spring court had a cover as latino gang. They would throw raves and smoke/sell weed as a side business. And they didnt allow or when they allowed they block advancement of non lantino changelings.

Didnt leave much room for weird shit.

>>52726658
Why would you do this

>>52726641

Take the robocock, lil doggie.

>>52726772

>>52725714
>kludgey
I dunno. Type moon mages have a lot of versatility, but the methods by which they work work with this universe way better.

It's sort of odd that mage is so god-damn awful to use in any other line. I'm not even talking cross-splat play, just overall usability as npcs and stuff.

Tone's all wrong and stuff.

>>52725753
I don't think you understand.

Mage supremacy isn't about "why", it's about "How much can we wank our self-insert splat". It's tribalism basically.

>>52726271

It still works, but it follows the logic of the realm. Quote from the Astral Rulebook:
"The rule of thumb (for characters and for players) is, “If it looks like a duck, treat it like a duck.” An inferno in the Anima Mundi is a valid target for “Control Fire,” and “Alter Integrity” can shore up a weakening bridge in the Oneiros before it crumbles away with its owner’s confidence. That said, there can be distinct differences in the way that magic interacts with some aspects of an Astral Space. It all depends on how the governing mind of the space regards those aspects — this is the other end of the rule of perception. Mages may assume that an Astral Space’s representation is valid and affect it with magic as though the Astral Space were real; the Astral Space holds its contents in a context that is not immediately available to its explorers, and that context also governs magic’s interaction with those contents. For example, sympathy is different inside the collective unconscious. It derives from the souls of billions of humans and acquires their perceptions: To the masses, traveling between two places that are closer together is easier — thus, distance (or perceived distance) dictates the strength of a sympathetic connection."