/STG/ - Star Trek General

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>>52489006
>Pre-Federation Edition

HA HA TIME FOR DILDOS

>>52489525
Do the Starfleet museum ships ever establish what the other races' ships were supposed to look like, at the time?

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>>52489562
Only Romulans I'm afraid. It's an area that certainly could do with expansion.

>>52489562
Probably about the same. Remember, in Trek humans are weird for how fast we innovate.

>>52489645

I really want a Comet or Fireball in STO. It would be the perfect companion to the Daedalus.

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There's also known ships from the SFM version of the Earth - Romulan War that don't have designs up because of http://www.st-minutiae.com/articles/romulanwar/hellsgate.html

Specifically for the Romulans:
2 VINEGAR-class fighter carriers (see section 10c)*
4 TONSIL-class fuelers
3 SYRUP-class troop carriers
12 ELBOW-class escort cruisers

*10c: Battle records describe a new CABBAGE-type missile/fighter carrier. This design has been designated VINEGAR class.

Well that and http://www.st-minutiae.com/articles/romulanwar/fleet.html which is the whole damn fleet list for the UEF

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http://www.st-minutiae.com/articles/romulanwar/index.html

It kills me a little knowing that this shit will probably never actually get done. All those section briefs, so full of potential.
>The Andorian Counteroffensive
>The Aftermath of Hell’s Gate
>Stage Three: Operation “Steamroller”

>>52489006
Was there ever an in universe reason for why the Vulcans gave up their ship designs for human ones?

>>52490381
IIRC the Vulcan Alcubierre-ring drives are a bit faster but far harder to shield properly and less maneuverable. Given how far into transwarp and QSD speeds the basic Cochrane design was taken in the 24th century I think the Vulcans made the right call.

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>>52490381
They didn't, the Vulcans just have their ships doing their own things separate from Starfleet. Starfleet is human-dominated because it originated as an Earth organization, whereas races like Vulcans and Andorians had their own space fleets that they kept.

>>52490381
Starfleet uses United Earth designs, but the individual races still build their own ships to their own preferences and for their own reasons. Here's a few post-Federation founding ships we know of that the Vulcans used (though the Vulcans might not themselves have made all of them):

http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Apollo_class

http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Vulcan_cruiser_(future)

>>52490563

Interesting; the first one seems to have open space in a similar configuration to Romulan ships like the D'deridex.

>>52489645

The "Reid Fleming" and it's painted like a Holstein?

>>52489645

Some of those names would actually be really funny if given to dildos.

>>52492050
>Baikal... for the world's deepest pussy

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>>52489691
Agreed. I'd also kill for the Paris or the Archer to get thrown in, using the designer's other works too.

>>52492050
>Powhatan
Should be Plowhatan

>>52493120
>Connie with Sovereign era parts
Ooh nice.

>>52493510
Those nacelles are like 90% of the reason I'd ever entertain trying to get the T6 Connie. It's just so fun to kitbash.

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>>52489562
There are a few Klingon designs

>>52493661
Is that not the T1 cruiser?

>>52494996
T2, but close enough. But the T6 Connie can use all the bit from the TOS variant and the T2 ship.

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>>52494499
I do like his design philosophy in terms of the progression of vessels, both Federation and Klingon, they make logical sense in how they drift towards what we see in canon.

>>52489645
Little Nell a Cute! CUTE!

How are escorts in STO these days?

>>52495937
T6 ones got recently an additional weapon slot for a special Heavy weapon, or at least they will be getting one, there is already three escorts with a heavy weapons lot in them though and they are the latest cash shop additions.

By what i have seen in images, those guns do some serious damage, at least now they do, because when they were first launched last thursday, they healed their targets instead, causing enemy ships to heal faster than they were dying.

>>52496066
... wut?
How did Cryptic manage to release a whole new class of Super Gun that did negative damage, and it wasn't picked up in QA?

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>>52496134
Because Cryptic are like the tech priests of Mars, going through an ancient source code made by another group who didn't bother leaving any info on it, so each time they tweak something, add something or remove or change something, there will be side effects nobody was able to see.
For example...
>Bridge officers jumping out of their seats during map change (fixed several years ago but it was pretty prevalent for a while, popping back around every once in a while)
>Weapons, equipment and other assorted items not doing what their item description said they would do (Fixed on case to case basis, some stuff still doesn't perform as it should)
>Transparent hulls on ships and starbases, which manifested itself in a way where you could see a sun shining through bulkheads, ships and even people (Fixed during the Agents of yesterday launch)
>Players being able to use Risian clothes outside of Risa (Fixed on feddies but Klingon empire players are seemingly still able to do it or at least they can do it with characters who changed clothes to Risian clothes and never changed off of them)
>Gorn players sometimes being able to use other species customization options, resulting in Gorn with Caitian tails, buff as fuck tall Ferengi and other assorted abominations (Fixed but seems to break at a drop of a hat)

And much more i cant currently remember.

All in all, STO is like a temperate piece of equipment from 40K and all Cryptic can do is chant the rites of repair while applying sacred motor oil and hoping the machine spirit takes to them kindly this time around.

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>>52496586
Pic related is one of those Gorn players having a blast with the broken character creator.

>>52493661
I call the Refit with those nacelles the Constitution Sovereign refit.

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>>52496586
>Gorn with Caitian tails, buff as fuck tall Ferengi and other assorted abominations

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>>52497711

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>>52497732

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>>52496586
>>52496134

Why are there Cardassian ships in orbit of Bajor in STO?

>>52499288

Bajor is now part of the Federation and the UFP is - in theory - allied with the new Cardassian government.

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>>52499288
Because there was at least at some point a mission where you had to mediate with the Cardassians and Bajorans who were about to have a incident in Bajoran orbit.

Nowadays we instead have a revamped Cardassian story arc with pic related kinds of gems and those ships are just derelicts left behind by Cryptic who forgot to delete them or something.

>>52499400
STO grows closer and closer to the day I can captain a crew of Cardies with chips on their shoulders and something to prove piloting the 'Damar's Revenge'.

>>52499400
>Because there was at least at some point a mission where you had to mediate with the Cardassians and Bajorans who were about to have a incident in Bajoran orbit.
Just Cardassians, no Bajorans involved, and that was a good side mission. Game needs more of those.

>>52500658
You can already do that, if you have the EC.

250k for a Galor or 350k for a Keldon
Peanuts for alien bridge officers, customised to look like Cardies
Further peanuts for the necessary skills, etc
Antares 3 uniform using grey and black as primary colours


Boom, you have yourself a Cardassian crew.

Or you can put a few Bajoran girls in skimpy Terran Empire uniforms

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>>52499288
Are you talking about this situation? (Probably in higher res)

>>52501182
Yes, though there were only 4 Cardassian ships.

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>>52501182
Meant to post the unedited version.

>>52501255
Yeah, I'm just after getting a Galor for my Cardassian alt. So I'm keen altogether.

>>52499400
>Cardassian with an eyepatch

That's so fucking metal.

>>52501640
My char's a spoon with one eye. Can confirm, shit is indeed quite cash.

>>52501051
As it stands, I don't think the Cardassia system is even used for any missions.

>>52501255
That's not the big question.

How many lights are there.

>>52502207
Not anymore. There was one or two missions in the old Cardassian arc but they were removed.

>>52502302
Everyone thought this was a prelude to playable Cardassian faction. We were wrong.

>>52502539
>Everyone thought this was a prelude to playable Cardassian faction.
...we did? News to me.

I'd like a playable Cardassian faction, but with how few people play Klingon and Romulan as it is, it's probably never happening. The TOS "faction" is only for the first ten levels and it only happened because of TOS nostalgia. DS9 as a whole is the redheaded stepchild of the franchise, so it's extremely doubtful Cardies will ever be playable beyond the existing cross-faction ships and alien parts.

>>52502667
Honestly there seems to be more Romulan players than Klingons, at least from what I've seen.

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>>52502667
>DS9 as a whole is the redheaded stepchild of the franchise
>the show that all the fans jack off over and agree was subject to the least retarded characterisation and powerlevels
>the show that was least berman'd

>>52503018
The show that had the least popularity among casuals, aka the tards who drop hundreds of dollars on pay store shit because they actually liked Voyager and want to play as shitty-ass Talaxians.

Those who prefer DS9 are a niche audience. And since DS9 fans are the smartest of the Trek fanbase, they also tend to call Cryptic out for bullshit and not fall for pay store/lock box jew memes. They're the correct audience when it comes to having taste in good shows, but ultimately not an audience Cryptic can cater toward when it comes to making money.

>>52503124
Is it wrong that I enjoyed DS9 while not begrudging those who preferred the more optimistic series their own opinions?

>>52503189
Voyager was less optimistic than DS9.

>>52503229
I was thinking more of TNG and TOS.

>>52503189
>>52503258
I have no problems with people who prefer TNG and TOS. I rank TNG and DS9 as my favorites equally. But it's a simple fact that DS9's fanbase is not as big as the fanbase for the other shows, even Enterprise if the recent Temporal Cold War circlejerk is any indication.

Now, I would very much like to be pleasantly surprised when it comes to this, but I'm not holding my breath for any DS9 love beyond what we already have.

>>52503302
>Temporal Cold War circlejerk

That's probably because it was an unfinished plotline so could actually go somewhere (anywhere) where as DS9 was finished and complete.

>>52502667
>DS9 as a whole is the redheaded stepchild of the franchise, so it's extremely doubtful Cardies will ever be playable beyond the existing cross-faction ships and alien parts.
STO was basically DS9 2.0: Borg and Undine Edition for the first few years. Sure, they threw in stuff from the other series, but the general plot and most of the references were DS9-flavored. It only really started to get away from that with LoR, when there started to be more of a mix.
It's pretty clear that the STO writers are actual Trek fans, rather than Trek writers, or devs just looking to get that easy thirsty-trekie dosh. They know what's going on in the novels generally, but know better than to do more than take harmless references from them. They do a decent-enough job sticking to show canon, but also try to expand from that and do mostly good work, within the constraints of what the game is (rather than what some people wish it were). Of course they screw it up from time to time (Geko was a mistake), but compared to what the rest of Trek has been doing in the last ten years, I'd put STO at the top of the heap, fiction-wise.

>>52503643
>because it was an unfinished plotline
Now now anon, the TCW did have a proper ending. It was just, well, Nazis.

>>52502539
They'll probably get introduced as another 10-mission race the next time Cryptic runs out of ideas.

>>52501640
"I don't care what your god damned Federation treaty says sonny! My crew and I are boarding Terok Nor, we're going to Quarks and we're getting hammered on occupation-vintage Kanar!"

>>52495291
I'm not a huge fan of the interim designs from the Daedalus to the Constitution. They feel more like an animorph graphic than anything else.

New ST: Continues is out.

>>52505221
To be fair, that's understandable given they're both known points and it would be logical to attempt to intuit how they got from there (Daedalus) to here (Constitution). I mean, most of them are bleh, but there are a few I like. Like the Asia-class or the Paris.

>>52506361
I get what the designer was going for. I would just much rather that the designs focused on the refinement of a single element, like the engines. You can see that happening to an extent, I just find the directness jarring.

Like, there's not much design commonality between the Connie and the Excelsior, beyond the standard star cruiser layout. But that's fine, because Starfleet were trying out a new concept with the Excelsior. That, to me, is more satisfying.

>>52505096
Despite myself, I did enjoy the dogfight over New York between the Stukas and the Enterprise. It was the sort of silly that Enterprise, as a show, tended to shy away from. As a result it was quite refreshing.

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>>52506523
Yeah, I get you. I do like the divergences from the A-to-B generally more than I do the ships that are clearly a dot on the path to the Connie. Like the Kestrel. It's an actually unique design that is a clear inspiration for things like the Saber.

>>52505221

It's partly thanks to the Bonaventure. She's just an ugly POS.

>http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Bonaventure_(10281NCC)

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>>52506570
Same here. But, I would say it's possible to take the same designs, rework them a little bit in places and suddenly they're immediately better.

A simple change of not having the hull paint would help a ton as that colour is hard to make look good and always has been. Even just a shift in shade can help a bunch, like a more white or grey tone rather than the beige.

The Lancaster era I think nails it with that and the Paris, as does the Constitution era with the Avenger/Predator and Capella as all great designs that really round out the fleet.
I've never liked the Daedalus though, so that era of that leading to the Wasp/Dragon is meh. Moskva/Gagarin classes I ... they need tweaking. I love the premise where they start to squish out that ball and tube look but those secondary hulls and neck need a tweak or five. Hyperion is just ugly. The Valley Forge era is so close to being great, but it's weakened by the original Enterprise traits of that oh so thin neck and the straight nacelle pylons.

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>>52508128
And just one more thing:

If there was just one retcon I could make to reality for star trek ship design, it's that the Phase II Enterprise would replace the TOS one.

That way all the SFM stuff could have used that as the goal to develop towards.

>>52508128
I honestly can't say I'm overly fond of most of those designs. Maybe I'm just salty because there's no TOS Miranda in there, or maybe it's how several of them are just blatant "Constitution, but not quite" ships.

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>>52508808
Capella can mount its nacelles below its hull, it's your Miranda stand-in.

>>52509110
Hm, that's actually not too bad.

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>>52509250
Honestly, the Capella is a really nice design. I like how it's clearly a utility vessel relative to the...less adaptable designs that follow the Connie pattern.

>>52509278
It's like a tiny upside down Nebula

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>>52509293
Indeed. I do like his more modular ships. The Capella and Paris are great.

>>52504933
That says something about the sorry state of Trek vidya/Trek in general.

>>52509442
Indeed.
Personally, I think Trek works best as short stories, or novellas at longest. Your typical episode is basically that (and even they tend to be broken up into A and B plots, which generally could exist independently). Even the good TOS movies weren't novel-sized. What good Trek lit I've read was basically short stories; even Garak: The Book was basically some short stories/novellas woven together into a greater novel. Crytic's blog posts are bredy gud, and their mission writing isn't bad either.
It's only when stuff gets longer that it gets into trouble. For long-term stuff you get things like Destiny or STO's Time Cop and Delta Rising arcs. Even within a single book, writers tend to stuff way too much into a story, into descriptions, into exposition, etc, which leads to stupid crap.
Part of the issue, I think, is that Trek is very visual. In a short story, you don't really have time to describe things, so you either leave it to the imagination, or just use something the audience already knows (for example, if a STO blog takes place on a Wells-class ship, you know what that looks like, and even what the bridge looks like), which makes for convenient shorthand. Novels have more room to muck up descriptions, which makes for awkward writing (like Gorn cloacas). Comics have a lot of advantages over even short stories, because they keep the shortness of it while also adding the visual element. However, comics have their own ways of telling a story, which most writers can't deal with (at least initially); also, they need good art too, which adds another entire of layer of difficulty to the success of the venture. Video games have even more potential that comics, because they are closest to what Trek was initially; but they also have more points of failure, because they need good gameplay to go with the story and art.
tl;dr good Trek is hard, harder than most fic, and few have stepped up to the challenge.

>>52509860
Imo, Trek is just assorted sci-fi short stories rolled up into a single universe so folks can get access to these stories without having to buy a dozen books by 5 different authors.
Lie, remember the stuff they had in TOS?
Nearly half of it was taken from some other novel or short story and just brought to the wider audences.

tl;dr Trek has always been a self contradicting setting because it tried to be a vehicle for multiple different sci-fi short stories and then after all that somebody tried to create continuity within it while pushing it as some sorta future utopia.

>>52509860
I actually don't think Delta Rising had bad writing, the problems with it were in the game mechanic issues they introduced at the same time.

>>52511789
Delta Rising would have been fine without the endless patrol missions. Or alternately, a reworking of each of them into a shorter arc, sort of like the Kobali. If you had all the Benthan/Hazari shit rolled into one it might make a cohesive story.

>>52511789
Sure, if you don't mind the tedium of ground zones filled with fucking Vaadwaur and not being able to just hand the Kobali over to them.

>>52511923
We don't play STO because it's good, but because it's the only supported game that scratches the itch.

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I just don't play STO. It's not hard.

>>52513864
God, that is just the worst looking variant of that design.

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>>52513989
I don't hate it but I'm really glad they didn't go with that. Apparently it was Berman's call to not have the Defiant look like a conventional ship.

I guess even that turd has to make a good call on occasion.

>>52514581
The right one is the Archer-class, I believe. A scout ship from one of the books. Cool little ship. Like a proto-runabout.

>>52513269
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

>>52513864
>>52514581
So that's where they got Nova. I have to say nice reuse of model.

>>52503124
>Those who prefer DS9 didn't watch Babylon 5 first

Fixed it for you. I'm not even saying that DS9 was necessarily a bad show. It's just that when you have a sci-fi series set on a space station meant as a diplomatic and mercantile meeting outpost, there's only so many stories you can tell, so DS9 and B5 both tread a LOT of the same ground. Watching one and then the other feels immensely repetitive.

...although also Babylon 5 was just plain superior in every way. It's even arguably better at being "Trek" than DS9, even.

>>52516898
>although also Babylon 5 was just plain superior in every way. It's even arguably better at being "Trek" than DS9, even

>anything to do with the Minbari
>Characters other than Londo and G'Karr
>Season 5

I did enjoy Babylon 5, and it handled certain topics better, I just don't get why people are so willing to ignore the dumb shit that happens in that show.

But then I guess that's just subjective taste.

>>52516898
Debatable, B5's digital effects have aged like milk. There's something to be said about using models until the tech was there to make it work.

>>52517198
Minbari episodes were better than the Bajoran episodes.

Also if it's time complain about any episode group it should by the Byron episodes.

>>52517255
>Minbari episodes were better than the Bajoran episodes.

Hard no, buddy. The Bajorans could at least speak like people, rather than Shakespearean villains. Not to mention the fact that some of the Bajoran-centric episodes, generally the ones dealing with their internal politics rather than just religion, were pretty good.

>Byron episodes
They were part of season 5. Apparently they never actually intended for there to be a season 5. The series finale was going to be the weird "through the ages" episode and that would be that, barring a few tv-movies to tie up loose ends, like stargate did. They would have been better off ending with Season 4, honestly.

>>52517414
I fucking hated Byron. He was the epitome of bad writing.

>>52517727
He was originally supposed to romance IVANOVA.

Try and imagine that without gagging.

As it stands, poor Lyta. Her actress was so proud of having a real speaking role, being a former stuntwoman, then they ditch her after the pilot, then they bring her back and her entire character arc is being crapped on from above by one high and mighty butt after another, with a few Byron dickslaps in the face near the end.

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>>52517198
>I just don't get why people are so willing to ignore the dumb shit that happens in that show.

Less show overall, excuse of having something like 1/3rd the budget of DS9 per episode. And even the really bad episodes are typically just dumb bad not outright offensive. More killer less filler or whatever the phase is.

>>52517414
Not quite; season 5 was intended, but they had to cram everything from it that couldn't be cut into season 4 because the were told that a 5th season just wasn't going to happen.
Season 5's proper ending was filmed for the season 4 end and just held back, the show was always going to end that way. The through the ages episode was basically cobbled together in a few days with even less of a budget than normal to end season 4 when they learned that they would get a 5th season at the last minute.

>>52516317
Nova does a lot of tweaks, but yeah, really good re-purposing. It's one of those designs that I can't really fault, and it's a very nice 'modern' replacement of the old Oberth for generic small science-y thing. Kinda ship that'd be thrown out with tasks of continual survey of within Federation boarders to keep track of all those anomalies and stuff that really doesn't deserve a cruiser but does need a good science-suite to keep an eye on.

>>52517933
What's with the putting two deflectors on things?

>>52518018
It's probably not a second deflector and just a big sensor array/SCIENCE! gun for when needing to project Science! at stuff.

>>52518018
Starfleet officers use the main deflector for space magic bullshit every other mission. Two deflectors means double the space magic.

>>52518103
I guess with how often using the deflector as a projector for various beams and pulses and shit happens that kinda makes sense. Use one built for that purpose rather than the main one, even if that seemed to work just fine.

Then they removed it/covered it up on the refit.

>>52499400 The mission's still there if you have the diplomatic reputation, isn't it?

>>52518155
>refit

...What refit?

>>52518018
It's the party caster. That's it magic projector.

The more important question is why put those stupid little fins on the nacelles.

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>>52518155
>>52518379
The Rhode Island refit.

But it does still have a small secondary deflector, similar to the one the Intrepid class has.

>>52518422
It's so they can put nacelles on the nacelles

>>52518422
The design team at Utopia Planitia called the design team at Antares nerds so they got even by putting wicked sweet fins on everything.

>>52518423
>The Rhode Island was commanded by Captain Harry Kim,

How the ever living fuck did that cunt make captain?

>>52518539
I am ok with this explanation.

>>52518765
Because Starfleet is a shitty organisation that learned how to military through buying a second-hand manual from a Ferengi arms dealer.

You've seen the show, you know this makes sense.

>>52518765
>How the ever living fuck did that cunt make captain?
It's amazing how far one can go in 20 years, especially when one's out of the shadow of some boss that doesn't want to promote anybody that boss being Rick Berman of course.

>>52519351
I feel like given the success and sheer viciousness of Ferengi arms dealers that would have probably been a very short but very good manual on the hiring and maintenance of mercenaries.

I would not put it past the Ferengi to be running their military like a lot of late 17th /early 18th century Europe where a small standing force is supplemented by rich people paying for a commission, raising whole regiments and hire them out as a business.

Ferengi Mercs (inevitably a very interracial group) and would be well dressed at least, with a lot of corporate pride instilled in them. Probably not unreliable either (though with incredibly detailed contracts that absolutely will not be gone outside without serious bonus payments negotiated for) since reputation is everything when it comes to getting good contracts for mercenaries. Unless everything goes tits-up and a company is on the run from the FCA.

>>52519724
I bet you have to pay latinum on board Ferengi Marauders just to use the replicators.

>>52519724
One of the biggest disappointments is that we never see a Ferengi version of the East India Company, it's usually independent privateers.

>>52509860
>>52509954
What did you all think about Full Circle? It's one of the things where they did surprisingly well with shitty material to work with (Voy crew, ST: Destiny happening in the background). In fairness, most of it was probably because of how it wasn't a massive story, but a bunch of things bouncing back and forth.

>B'Elanna chases Miral
>Voyager chases B'Elanna
>The whole kuvah'magh thing actually had a decent explanation, which I preferred over STO's one desu
>Eden plans to send Voyager back to the DQ
>[autistic Janeway screeching]
>oh no suddenly Destiny
>The Torreses(?) go into hiding
>Janeway dies
>Voyager gets rekt holding the line
>Chakotay goes emo to the extremeo, which is more characterisation than he's had in 7 years of Voy

>>52519874
It's probably just deducted from wages for convenience. The Ferengi out on the big ships like that are clearly working for a big company so individual transactions like that just means wasting more money on accounting time.

It's probably not too shit though for any but the lowest, trained crew are going to have a lot of value (and probably a lot of schooling fees they fully expect to be able to pay off), and with the amount of ships the Ferengi must be running a lot of competition both for crew worth their wages and for wages to attract crew who know their worth.

And the Boss has gotta be really fucking rich to afford a ship like like a full on Marauder. Hence Bok being able to recruit a new crew even after being disgraced and stripped of command; undoubtedly he had a ton of other assets and connections to pull a cover-up and put together a new ship and crew. That subspace transporter stunt can't have been cheap.

>>52520109
I kind of like how the Decipher RPG says it; that basically DaiMons have to lease their vessels from the FCA, but so long as they can make the payments and don't shit in the punchbowl they can do whatever the hell they want with it.

>>52520872
Of course, Ferengi will let you do basically anything for the right price.

>>52516898
I watched Babylon 5 first and I like both of them.

Then again, that may have something to do with the fact that I have a distinct preference for Sisko (and Sinclair) over Sheridan.

>>52518765
>How the ever living fuck did that cunt make captain?

>entire crew hailed as heroes
>one of the few members of the cre that generally stuck to the rules, making him an obvious posterboy
>Tuvok probably put a good word in for him
>Janeway is now an admiral and can make decisions that effect entire sectors

>>52502539
I think the primary problem for introducing Cardassia as another playable faction is trying to put any semblance of balance and narrative cohesion on it. More than likely they'd be another "pick a side a level 10" faction, which doesn't make sense, seeing the Cardassians openly despise the the Klingons for obvious reasons.

And they can't really have them as a Fed only race, seeing as that only further reduces the time they're spending on the Klingon faction.

The only tenable alternative i can think of is making them entirely separate to both, as their own resurgent faction. In fact, that's what i wish they had done with the Romulans.

>>52491096
Which of course leads to the implication that the D'Deridex "wings" have something to do with warp propulsion, even though the D'Deridex (and arguably the Apollo as well) have distinct nacelles. Possibly it's a sort of hybrid of the two designs.

>>52524328
I'd be okay with them as a minor 3rd faction. I just really hope that, if we do get a Cardassian faaction, they aren't somehow tied to the Dominion or the True Way.

To be fair, I kind of assume that the introductory arc would have you face off against the True way in some sort of civil war, anyway.

>>52525050
It'd be neat to have the Cardassian faction end up associated with the New Link.

>>52525260
I don't see the Cardassians making that mistake twice.

>>52524092
Don't forget his best friend's dad being a high up admiral.

>>52525936
Cardassians are some of the biggest fuckups out there. Never put a mistake past them.

>>52527207

They were doing alright as a minor imperial power until the Federation came along with their self-righteousness and plot armor.

>>52527207
>>52528561

Also, Romulans are the biggest fuck-ups out there.

And this is coming from someone who's a fan of the Romulans.

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>>52503018
>Low powerlevels
>Fucking Odo and shapeshifter race in general
My sides are as wide as the wingspan of a targelian hawk rn senpai

>>52517933
How big is a Nova compared to the NX-01? How big is a Luna compared to a Connie?

>>52530053
NX-class length/beam/height: 225m/135.8m/33.3m

Nova-class length (only dimension known): 221.74m

I unfortunately don't know about the Luna.

>>52530053
>>52530337
Luna's around 450m, according to Memory Beta (I know), and the Connie is 288.6m. Other dimensions for the Luna unknown.

>>52530053
>>52530337
>>52531111
Luna Class

Length: 450.00 meters
Width: 205.00 meters
Height: 80.00 meters
Weight: 3,000,000 metric tons
Cargo capacity: 60,000 metric tons

Hull: Duranium microfoam and Tritanium plating composite.
Number of Decks: 17, including void between primary hull and sensor platform pod.

>>52531157
Ah.

>>52528579
This. The Romulans have screwed up more "fool-proof" plans than anybody else. They put all of their eggs in one basket and act surprised when Starfleet screws them over.

>>52532274
They suffer from the fact that the Federation, primarily because of humanity, are fucking impossible to account for. They contradict themselves and do things no plan could allocate for on whims.

>>52532315
There's also an amount of over-ambition, on the Romulans part.

>let's transparently support a coup in Klingon space, surely the Federation won't intervene
>let's invade Vulcan with 3 regiments, clearly the Federation has no ground defences
>let's support a smaller, unpopular Klingon coup
>let's trust the Obsidian Order

>>52532553
To be fair, three of those four was Sela being Sela. She's such a shitty character it's ridiculous.

>>52532581
Sela's gonna Sela. Even if I hope the new mission actually has her learn from the shitfest that was the Iconian War.

>>52532592
Her and the devs have been open that the continuing storyline will be THE REDEMPTION OF SELA so look forward to her being shoved down everyone's throats even more.

>>52532649
Not a high bar, but at least she's better than T'Ket or Gaul.

>>52532581
You'd think the Tal Shiar would just have her killed eventually.

>>52532553
To be fair, the Obsidian Order were actually the trustworthy party in that exchange.

>>52533733
Bad publicity to kill the daughter of a "war hero"

>>52533733
They might have if Captain (You) didn't kill the Tal Shiar.

>>52489645
What STO ship best scratches that SFM pre-Fed itch? I'm thinking NX-Refit with color stripe but if there's anything pre-saucer even that'd be better.

>>52535639
I was thinking more TNG era. Somebody like Koval would most certainly have benefitted from her "unfortunate demise"

>>52535952
Daedalus is in the game, both as a leveling ship and as an endgame retrofit.

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>>52535952
>>52536172

Yes! And the Daedalus/Nautilus is fantastic.

>>52536263
It actually is. T6 fleet version will space science your shit all the way in.

>>52536263
Ew.

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>>52537435

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>>52538216
There's just something about the TOS era ships that makes them look good even after all these years.

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>>52538376

Indeed.

>>52538376
They're so sleek because they had so little budget to work with. "Less is more" really is a good philosophy, because 25th century Fed ships are so ridiculously overdesigned.

Fortunately they had the sense to follow the TOS-era mentality for their 23rd century ships.

>>52538376
We call that nostalgia.

>>52538464
Y'know, I think that might be why I'm not that fond of a lot of the "transitional" ships shown in that Daedalus-to-Constitution ship display pic. A lot of them are really...really busy-looking designs.

>>52538376
Film era ships look much better, honestly. There's simplicity and then there's lack of detail.

>>52532553
>let's trust the Tal Shiar
ftfy

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>>52538830
Agree.

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>>52538830
I can't disagree with this but >>52538567 'busy-looking' really isn't the right term given the designs are nearly all as smooth and detailed as the TOS Enterprise except the early post-Daedalus designs.

If anything they could do with a bit more noise on them, image related here with a nice detailed skin on a Valley Forge class. Really helps bring out the scale and shapes without having to go chunky and lumpy.

>>52538867
This. The Romulan military seems to have a fairly good grasp on how to combat Starfleet. It's the scheming of the Tal Shiar(Sela) that screws them over.

>>52539814
I guess the issue is to me, they *don't* really look all that smooth; they look kind of cludged together or like somebody took a constitution and randomly added bits in places while haphazardly subtracting them elsewhere.

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>>52540061
Cruisers gonna cruiser.

>>52541957
Wasn't there a version of the Daedalus, similar to this except done up like a NASA ship?

>>52536172
>>52536263
>>52536578
Thanks lads, I'm gonna see if I can replicate those beautiful United Earth stripes on a Daedalus.

What's the "Trek-nobabble" excuses for saucer sections? Why do the Feds use them while others do not?

In this and other threads, kind anons have shared the "Trek-nobabble" excuse for the Fed's use of separate nacelles, so what's the excuse for the saucers?

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>>52543956

Matt Jeffries designed it originally as a lifeboat/escape vehicle. You can see the two landing legs as the elongated triangles on the bottom surface of the saucer. Her third leg is either part of, or concealed by the "neck" connecting the saucer and stardrive sections.

>>52533733
Temporal insurance. If she dies, the course of events that the timeline relies on wouldn't have occurred.

>>52543956
As >>52544150 states, it serves as a lifeboat in case the warp core destabalises. Similarly, it allows for easier containment within the engineering hull, in the case of major radiation leaks.

As for the specific saucer shape, I think it has to do with the subspace warp bubble it produces. The disc allows the ship to create an evenly distributed subspace field that lends itself to smoother transition into higher warp factors, albeit at a higher energy requirement than some other designs.

>>52544492
As in she's being protected by Time Cops? Or do you mean the Romulans are worried that her death would cause the timeline to reshuffle so that she never existed.

>>52544492
That's recursive. If she would die without temporal interference then surely that's the natural progression of the timeline.

>>52544664
Outside of the Enterprise C event in STO, it's actually one of the few timeline altering events not caused by someone fucking around with the timeline as an outsider.

>>52544704
Technically Sela exists because of a proto timeline, that of the "Yesterday's Enterprise" episode, which quite literally only Guinan knew about until they introduced Sela. Even then, apparently that Tasha Yar didn't give up any useful data about her timeline.

>>52543956
>>52544590

Thanks anons. Those are actually "Trek-nobabble" excuses which make some sense.

>>52544150
>>52544590
>>52545167
In-universe, the primary hull was initially supposed to be spherical because a sphere is the most efficient shape when it comes to retaining pressure in a vacuum. As the designs progressed the sphere ended up being flattened into a circle. So you could say that having a circular shape horizontally follows the same vacuum pressure idea, while being flattened out vertically is more practical when it comes to designing the interior and for the people living and working in it, especially considering each deck has its own artificial gravity plating.

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>>52545275

If I remember correctly, the entirety of the crew quarters are in the saucer section, as are the lounges and other areas. The bridge being in the center literally makes it the hub of the ship's community, and all of these combine to create a sense of belonging that's necessary for long space voyages.

Additionally, the saucer is fairly space efficient as far as quarters and offices and the administrative work that allows a ship to function is concerned.

I wish I had a better blueprint/cutaway, but this one isn't bad for getting a general feel for how packed the stardrive section is with equipment.

>>52544664
As in she's being protected by the time cops. Assuredly, given the repercussions her actions have had, if they could get rid of her, they would have by this point.
>>52544704
Natural from who's point of view? The issue we have is that 31st Century observers have a vested interest in their timeline continuing over others. To them, it's natural she survives and any action that would remove her would be unnatural.

>>52545830
And that's recursive. If she only continues to exist because someone in the future chooses to save her then you've got a self creating loop. She's being saved because time cops need her to save their timeline so they can save her so she can save them so they can save her so she can save them so they can save her... ad nauseam. Nobody began this process and nobody will end it.

If, however, someone else from the future decided to go back in time and change the order of events by killing Sela at a time and place where she isn't recorded as having died, then it would be a non recursive loop. There is a definite beginning point and end. Dude decides to alter history and is stopped by time cops.

Given that the Temporal prime directive is about stopping interference in the linear progression of events, I can't see time cops specifically altering events from the get go.

This is precisely the sort of thing that happens when Trek writers try and deal with time travel. They fuck the Temporal pudding.

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>>52543956
To go down the Star Fleet Museum route: the saucer section happened due to Earth/later Star Fleet ships being design with a distinct patter of needing to separate out the engine section from the rest of the ship when it came to the development of antimatter reactors due to the serious safety concerns.

Ships started out as the big tubes developed off the Bison class because that was the best shape to shift a fuckton of stuff, since the ships needed big crews and a massive amount of supplies and fuel due to using very large fusion reactors. Antimatter reactors managed to shrink the fuel amounts a lot, especially for smaller ships like the Comet, which was the first recognisable divide of ball-front and tube rear. The Comet got stripped down and simplified from its origins as a high speed scout to become a cheap, easier to produce yet still bleeding-edge tech explorer in the Daedalus class, lifeboat forward hull even more emphasised. Wasp class overemphasised it and was a dead end.

That ball shape, chosen for efficiency much like the big tubes of earlier, was found if flattened out to be able to wrap the warp field around it more efficiently. This trend of keeping the engineering section with the antimatter reactor and storage separate of the primary crew section continued as that ball continued to get flattened out, but with the peaks kept because the slight elevation is really handy for mounting things like sensor arrays and phaser banks with suitable clearance and arcs than a purely flat disc.

The secondary hull being pushed down allowed for mounting of some damn big deflector dishes with the bonus of not needing gigantic power lines through the ship, as deflectors can apparently output more energy than phaser banks I can see why that'd be good and without taking anything away in the primary hull in order to mount them with suitable forward clearance. Star Fleet has found them far more useful than everyone else for some reason.

>>52519722

Captain Kim ends being rather enjoyable as a recurring character.

Tom Paris? Maybe during VOY, but when the actor voiced Tom in STO it felt... underwhelming. Like he just showed up on set and couldn't get into the role more concretely.

>>52545465
That one has the saucer phaser emitters up WAY too high, among other things.

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>>52546531
I think it's because it's explicitly the Jefferies version. Enterprise didn't get it's twin phaser banks in their usual locations until the Star Fleet Technical Manual, and canonically in TMP with the refit.

>>52546531

I did some digging, and that's the MSD that Drexler cooked up for the ENT 2-parter "In a Mirror Darkly" based on the original plans made by Jeffries. So any differences compared to the 1701 could be chalked up to the fact that it's actually a representation of Defiant.

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>>52546835

Here's a shot of her from the bow, for comparison's sake.

Is it a coincidence that the old Fed ships look like they came out of the Starfire game?

>>52546190
>needing to separate out the engine section from the rest of the ship when it came to the development of antimatter reactors due to the serious safety concerns.
>That ball shape, chosen for efficiency much like the big tubes of earlier, was found if flattened out to be able to wrap the warp field around it more efficiently.

Thanks for that. Like the "Trek-nobabble" excuses >>52544150 and >>52544590 shared, these "engineering" concerns seem way more plausible than the pseudo-sociologcal gobbledegook >>52545465 wrote about.

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>>52547019

Just bear in mind that >>52544150 and >>52545465 are the same person. Have another pic of the Agamemnon.

>>52547019
"Pseudo-sociological gobbledegook" absolutely is rationale for some Starfleet ship design decisions. Part of the reason why the first Enterprise is so big and has a good amount of recreational facilities is because it was designed for deep-space exploration away from major starbases for months at a time. The Ent-D took it even further, adding holodecks and allowing civilian families on board. The Ent-J was intended to take it even further to the scale of being designed to travel to other galaxies, and thus was large enough to be a flying city complete with parks, entertainment zones, universities, and transporters replacing turbolifts. Point being when you have massive ships designed to operate independently for months at a time, making it feel like home will be taken into consideration for the internal layout.

>>52547478

I don't know where that other anon lives in the world, but anyone with experience with submariners will tell you they get WEIRD after having been in a steel can for months on end.

>>52547736
>I don't know where that other anon lives in the world, but anyone with experience with submariners will tell you they get WEIRD after having been in a steel can for months on end.

I served on subs and now build them. Claiming that a saucer is "more space efficient" than a sphere as >>52545465 did is absolute nonsense.

You want elbow room? Go with a sphere over saucer.

>>52547826
He didn't say that it's more space efficient than a sphere, just that it is space efficient, which it is.

>>52547478
>The Ent-D took it even further, adding holodecks and allowing civilian families on board.

Holodeck which cause constant problems and having your children die with you must be a real morale booster.

>>52547857
And that's how you know it was driven by pseudo-sociological gobbledegook in-universe and not by people with practical experience when it comes to deep space exploration.

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>>52547848

At least someone actually read the post...

>>52546835
>>52546870
Fair, though I could have sworn that you see the Defiant's phasers emitting from the normal locations during the combat sequences.

>>52547884

Too, true sadly. How many times in TNG's first season alone did Enterprise come *this* close to being destroyed with the crews' kiddies aboard? Other species must think Humans are complete fucking idiots.

And now, some pinhead will post "B-b-b-b-but Enterprise isn't supposed to be a warship! It's just a diplomatic and science vessel!"

Well, it may not be a warship, but it sure as fuck gets threatened with complete destruction often enough.

>>52547994
This is why I'm glad that near as one could tell the Enterprise-E *didn't* have many, if any, civilians onboard regularly.

>>52547848
>just that it is space efficient, which it is.

Space efficient compared to what? I can posit a dozen shapes with the same warp field "streamlining" that would provide more space than a saucer.

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>>52547969

It's been a while since I watched ENT, and I don't really remember. But, just because Drexler did an MSD for the show doesn't mean the special effects guys paid any attention.

Pic related. The designer says that's the deflector dish. FX team says otherwise...

>>52548015

So, what's a shape that:

a.) Is an efficient use of space
b.) Will keep people from putting phasers in their mouths after ten weeks
c.) Can also serve as a lifeboat/escape vehicle, and
d.) Conform to space magic techno-babble propulsion systems that exist for narrative convenience

>>52548065
>So, what's a shape that:
>a.) Is an efficient use of space
>b.) Will keep people from putting phasers in their mouths after ten weeks

For those two, you want as many cubic meters as possible.

>c.) Can also serve as a lifeboat/escape vehicle, and

Depends entirely in the Trek-nobabble systems in question. You've impulse drives, antigravity, etc. so the shape doesn't need to "fly" or even be streamlined in an atmospheric sense. Given the various shapes shuttles and runabouts come in, you could have any shape at all as long as it doesn't fuck with the warp bubble. Which brings us to...

>d.) Conform to space magic techno-babble propulsion systems that exist for narrative convenience

That's the kicker. Apparently the thinness of the saucer helps it better conform the warp bubble. The same could also be plausibly be claimed for the rounded leading edges of the saucer; they conform better to the warp bubble.

However, seeing as the warp bubble extends as far aft as the nacelles, why doe the REAR of the saucer need to be rounded? Why isn't it simply squared off thus proving more cubic meters for the crew?

Why don't the Feds use a rectangle or square with a rounded front edge? That would conform to the warp bubble and provide more space.

The answer is: It wouldn't look kewl to Trekkies.

>>52548189
>Intrepid and Defiant classes

>>52548189

>it wouldn't look kewl

Would you rather explore strange new worlds in the U.S.S. Made of Shipping Containers, or the Enterprise?

Honestly though, you could have just ignored the last one, it was intentional sarcasm because as serious as we all sometimes get about this... it is just a TV show made by non-engineers/non-astrophysicists for an admittedly less educated public.

Of which I am one.

>>52548189
>Why don't the Feds use a rectangle or square with a rounded front edge? That would conform to the warp bubble and provide more space.

Arguably what some later designs technically are, as saucer sections started becoming ellipsoid.

>>52548302
>Would you rather explore strange new worlds in the U.S.S. Made of Shipping Containers, or the Enterprise?

On a five year mission I'd rather explore in the USS Most Elbow Room Available. Fashion and aesthetics be damned.

beep boop

fuck the exocomps

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>>52549766
Check your bio-privilege shitlord.

>>52548012
Post Dominion War, no civilians are allowed permanent residence aboard Starships.

>>52547884
>>52547994
>Starfleet is above using a crewmember's own family as a constant incentive not to fuck up

>>52548557
"If it looks good, it will fly good." -- Bill Lear
Of course, aesthetics evolve over time.

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>>52550329
Sure thing.

An old ship like the comet in this pic
>>52546190
I think would have been better for the new Star Trek series.

By the Kirk era it's a run down piece of shit that's being kept alive with duct tape and the mad genius of it's repair crews.

It is part of the UFP's equivalent of the merchant navy and only has 3 actual Star Fleet officers on board. The rest are hired at the captains discretion.

Captain is, like his ship, a half dead relic from another era that just refuses to go away. He's pushing 100 but due to modern future magic medicine is still capable of doing his job. His career predates the UFP and secretly believes that Earth sold out it's freedom for comfort. Considers himself the last real Star Fleet captain, the rest are just UFP bureaucrats.

It could have been Firefly ins Star Trek.

>>52547994
For not being a combat vessel, the ENT-D sure got sent on border patrols a lot.

>>52550393
It was sure leading a load of combat task forces too.

>>52550393
When your smallest personal transports have the firepower to melt a mountain, every ship is a combat ship.

>>52550557
What if Duranium/shields are stronger than a mountain?

>>52550592
What if Captain Kirk is climbing a mountain?

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>>52550557
World War I battlecruiser logic.

>>52550604
He is simply asserting his dominance over it.

>>52550641
Therefore, Kirk is a shuttlecraft.

>>52550592
Then you use your deflector array to science their hull/shields apart and then beam a few torpedoes into their warp core.

>>52550393
Ent-D was a flagship of the fleet, so naturally it got sent to border patrols, diplomatic missions with hostile aliens and so on.

Doesn't make having civilians on board any less crazy, of course.

>>52550702
>Shuttlecraft
>Witchcraft
>craft
>crafts were made of wood
>wood floats
>Kirk is a shuttlecraft, therefore he is a craft, therefore he is made of wood, therefore he floats therefore...

HE IS A WITCH! BURN HIM!

>>52550793
It wouldn't surprise me if the Tal Shiar tried that one.

Which intelligence agency is better, the Tal Shiar or the Obsidian Order?

>>52551159
Presuming ideal operating circumstances and no Founders to fuck things up? Tal Shiar. They've been around on the galactic stage longer and managed to, until Nemesis and Hobus, avoid any major setbacks of consequence.

>>52551159
The Tal Shiar have a stronger grasp on Romulan society. They have direct authority over the Military where the Order is part of a triumvirate, alongside the Detapa Council and the High Command. The High Command even has its own intelligence apparatus, separate to the Order (Gul Madred and his curious infatuation with lights). By comparison, the Tal Shiar have monopoly on imperial intelligence services, the ability to overrule the Imperial navy and a permanent seat on the Continuing committee.

It might be fairer to compare the Order to Starfleet intelligence.

>>52551159
Let's just say you wouldn't want to be the guest of either

>>52550384
What is it with this thread and its fetish for angry old man from another era characters?

>>52550329
>"If it looks good, it will fly good." -- Bill Lear

Whether they looked good or not, Lear's designs still met certain passenger comfort and cargo requirements.

>Of course, aesthetics evolve over time.

True, but aesthetics isn't the same as elbow room, fucktard.

>There's less living space so the crew will be more crowded, but doesn't it look pretty!

Said no designer EVER.

>>52553740

That angry old man from another era is us, yelling at Abramstrek to get off our lawn

>>52550207
>Post Dominion War, no civilians are allowed permanent residence aboard Starships.

Too little too late. How many spouses and kiddies DIED before they were removed? How many starships were delayed joining the fight because they had to drop off dependents first?

Why don't you faggots making constant excuses for Roddenberry's idiotic idea as Sisko what he thinks about having his wife and son aboard at Wolf 359?

B-b-b-b-b-but it's a not a warship!

>>52553796
OY ABRAMS! GET OFFA MAH STARZONE!

>>52553740
Because of the increasing number of shit things out there that want to destroy the UFP and aren't interested in being diplomacied we need someone who can fight them.

Modern UFP gave us Picard, Sisko and Janeway. Ones a diplomat but that only works if things want to listen. One is a borderline schizophrenic who makes astoundingly bad decisions. Only Sisko is actually useful and he seems to be from what we have seen the exception. So we need a time when he was the rule rather than the exception.

So we look forward and we see STO where we have Captain Paris and Captain Kin. Yeah, no. Very no.

So we look back and we see Kirk and friends who were what we need. We need someone who is going to beat the shit out of space pirates, we need someone who's idea of negotiation is at least more than one step removed from capitulation.

But what would they think of 25c UFP Star Fleet? It would be like a WW2 veteran seeing an angry tumblrtard screaming oppression because someone disagreed with them. It would generate frustration and resentment and either rebellion from the system or an overwhelming desire to give the system a good and entertaining kicking until the system starts to work again.

Take it back to Kirk era and you would have an Archer ere pre UFP spacer pretty fucking resentful at having to baby sit the Vulcans (who sat by for the entire Xindi conflict), the Tellerites (who suffer from small dog syndrome) and the Andorian (who are unreasonably aggressive towards everything).

Kirk era angry old man knows Earth doesn't need the UFP, the UFP needs Earth and it sure as shit has been proven. UFP's biggest success was convincing Earth that it was weak.

>>52553807

Anon, calm down. No real people died at Wolf 359.
To be honest, I think the whole idea of putting families and civilians on starships meshes nicely with the way Starfleet is presented at the beginning of TNG and which it is criticized for by Q: self-assured, complacent and a bit smug.

>>52553807
It's all just PR, dude. Of course Starfleet builds warships, but they don't call them that. Because it would piss off the Vulcans and any other race that consider themselves pacifists.

So instead they rolled a few ancillary agencies into starfleet and used the excuse that "well, they're not ALL warships" as an excuse to refer to their peacetime navy as a humanitarian flotilla or some such bollocks.

I don't really think anybody defends them putting civilians on board starships. It was only ever going to end in pussin'. But, in setting, we try to figure out the sort of justification that he Federation would use.

Generally, I think the Federation of the TNG era had gone a bit soft. All their major wars and conflicts of the last few decades were neatly dealt with and they wanted to get back to exploring. Some bright spark back on Earth probably went and published a paper on the effects of long-term deep space missions, coming to the conclusion that crews could become unstable without access to their loved ones.

Rather than refuting this assessment (well that's why we have shore leave and encourage crews to become closer), the presiding Federation council decided to allow civvies on deep space ships, probably in a move to gain popular support.

You can tell from Picard's initial reaction to this news that he saw this as a terrible idea, and I would imagine that a lot of Starfleet's head captains and flag officers expressed much the same discomfort.

The general public consensus was likely something to the tune of "It'll be fine, it's not like we'll be in any wars soon." because that's what living in paradise can do to you.

>>52553982
And even for that generation was inexcusably stupid.

Season 1 UFP still had to contend with the Ferangi (who were known pirates that ate people), Romulans (who were slave taking assholes) and entire colonies disappearing without a trace.

This is to say nothing of Star Fleet captains having the survival instincts of a marzipan duck and wanting to take the rest of the ship with them.

"B-but it not a warship" and all variations there of is totally stupid when you are surrounded by neighbors who are capable building ships of a comparable capability who have little to no notion of the distinction between Civilian and Soldier and consider both to be targets/food. This would work if the UFP, and Star Fleet in particular, was meant to be unbelievably flaws, but it was meant to be a utopia.

For all that I will be grateful for Roddenberry for inventing Star Trek he was a bit of a clown when he was given free reign.

>>52553982
>>52554068

More pathetic attempts to excuse away Roddenberry's utter douchebaggery.

Read >>52554154 and try thinking for a change.

While I'm glad Roddenberry for creating Trek, it doesn't necessarily follow that EVERY idea he had was good or even sensible.

Quit making excuses and accept the fact it's a stupid fucking idea that never would happen.

I have a question.

Was Janeway ever brought to trial after her return?

She sold WMD to the Borg among many other things.

>>52554390
Based on Star trek: Nemesis, she was promoted to admiralty.

>>52554260
How am I defending it? I said it's dumb. It's one of the things that bugs me most about TNG. I'm just trying to come up with the circumstances for it to have come about, seeing it's clearly a new thing as of Picard's tenure aboard the Enterprise.

Ineffectual, knee-jerk politics can do serious harm in attempt to create a popular quick-fix. I don't see why the Federation would be immune to that. Some asshole on Earth doesn't see a problem with it and ends up pushing it through the council, suddenly Starfleet has to abide by a stupid decision.

And that does happen all the time in the real world. To the Military, to Education, to healthcare.

>>52554260

No. It is a stupid idea, but like I said, it gels with a smug, placid Starfleet that thinks it has the quadrant figured out and hasn't been involved in a real conflict for ages.

>>52554260
Where's the fun in that?

You debbie-downer types come in here, rant about something being shit and then don't offer a fix or any sort of interesting new take. You just go "wouldn't happen in the real world" and the repeat yourselves over and over.

So why not get those create juices flowing and try to come up with something with a tad more merit than a childish insult?

>>52554652
>>52554680

Look at it this way: Do you make excuses for VOY's "Threshold" episode?

Do you try "to come up with the circumstances for it to have come about"? Do you try and make it "work"? Do you try to come up with in-setting excuses of how Paris and Janeway turned into fucking salamanders and then back into humans?

Or do you simply say this is completely fucking retarded and ignore it?

So, tell us, why do you attempt to excuse one piece of idiocy and not another? They're both canon, they both "happened", but one is brushed aside and the other has people trying to "explain" it.

Why?

>>52554781
I thought Threshold was formally retconned by later stuff.

>>52554704
>debbie-downer
>childish insult?

Sure thing, Skippy.

My take is that families aboard Starfleet vessels are the same as salamanders in "Threshold": Ignore that it ever happened.

Couples? Sure, as long they're both serving in Starfleet because the Fed's are smug/placid enough not to have a "Sullivan Bros." rule.

Noncombatants and kids? Fuck no. It never happened just like Paris and Janeway turning into salamanders.

>>52554834
>I thought Threshold was formally retconned by later stuff.

Not according to Memory Alpha.

>>52554704

Maybe all these nerd blogs that try to explain the "science" behind Franchise X have just left people less willing to suspend their disbelief for something.
I mean, the other day, someone argued that A New Hope is shit because a single fighter taking out giant battlestation is WAY too unrealistic and this would NEVER happen with a US carrier group and so on.

>>52554781

>people turning into salamanders because of warp magic
>the federation, a noted assembly of space hippies, deciding to try out some social engineering on their ships

The latter at least makes some sense in the wider context of the universe, the former doesn't.
To be honest, I don't think this discussion is going anywhere.

>>52554390
>>52554476

IIRC, she was promptly court martialled upon returning for gross violations of the Temporal Prime Directive. However, seeing as how she had simultaneously destroyed the Borg Queen, the Unicomplex, the Unimatrix associated with it, and the transwarp hub nearest Earth, AND pulled off the greatest PR coup of her age, they promoted her in the same breath. This is how Schizophrenic Captain Ahab came to run the Academy and shape the Starfleet of the 25th century.

>>52554781
Because there's a tangible fix to civilians on starships. It's a poor government decision.

By comparison, Threshold contradicts previously established, in setting physics, as well as also being contradicted by later episodes of the same show. It's impossible to fix something within the canon when the canon itself its unclear as to what exactly happened.

But hey, I'll give it a go, because you're being such an unbearable little shit about it.

Paris didn't actually break Warp 10. We've seen that warp speeds above 10 exist, but require special apparatus(slipstream drive) to interact with. Paris tried to cross that THRESHOLD and was exposed to crazy amounts of exotic radiation in the process. Chronotons, most likely, kinda like Kes. So he ended up experiencing some suprememly bizarre side effects until the doctor could purge the chronotons from his system and bring him and the captain back in line with linear reality.

>>52554918
Maybe students will be encouraged to view her career as a negative example. Like, "See how the Headmistress reacted to her colleagues being fused? Don't do that."

>>52554918
That explains a lot about STO

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>>52554976
It indeed does.

>>52554976

It really does. If Craptic could stop with the EVERYTHING IS ICONIANS asspulling, the rest represents a coherent outgrowth of where we leave the Alpha Quadrant post-Voyager.

Well, that and the Klingon silliness. Which can be explained away by outside manipulation, seeing as how the High Council can be manipulated by a four-year-old with a particularly strong hankering for candy.

>>52554834
The events happened but the in-episode physics are disregarded. Although warp factors are fairly nebulous, as is.

TOS, TNG and ENT all use different warp scales, for instance. Hence we had Warp 22 and 36 in TOS without anybody saying shit.

>>52554919
I actually like that explanation. I do think that there was a specific element or form of radiation the Doctor mentioned, but I'll be fucked if I'm rewatching that train wreck.

>>52555071
Oh god dat pic
Dat filename
My sides have achieved warp speed

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>NX has only 80 crew to the connie's 400
>94% of the internal volume
And keep in mind that a big chunk of the connie (the stardrive section) is devoted to only work stuff. I wonder how many of the NX crew gets their own quarters, even if it is just basically a closet with a bed and shower.
>>52553764
>>There's less living space so the crew will be more crowded, but doesn't it look pretty!
>Said no designer EVER.
People are saying that right now, just change "crew" to "tennants" or "owners".
>muh smaller footprint
>muh small houses
>muh architecture
If living space is not what you're selling (unlike a cruise ship, for example), you're going to try to cram people into as small a space as you can get away with. If aesthetics are a higher priority than living space, than it will be so.

>>52555662
Except they don't call it pretty, they call it efficient.

>>52555072
>Well, that and the Klingon silliness.
If you believe that one official fanfic blog, the sole solitary reason why the Klingons decided to declare war on the Federation was because the Federation was all "nuh uh you can't conquer the Gorn even if their entire monarchy has been compromised by Species 8472 you still can't imma wave my finger disapprovingly" and the Klingons were all "these people are such massive idiots, we need to whip them into shape"

>>52555072
>the Klingon silliness
That's canon Klingon attitude though. See: DS9, which that whole business is basically a retelling of. Also, by that time in STO timeline, the Duras-lite faction had gained control, and it was anti-Federation anyways.

>>52555662
Those ships remind me, i finally got the Ent-E model in mail i ordered last christmas.
Gonna go grab it from post office this saturday.

>>52554919
>But hey, I'll give it a go, because you're being such an unbearable little shit about it.

Yeah, god forbid someone call out all of you on your rank hypocrisy, huh? I'll dismiss "Threshold" out of hand because I don't like it while I'll make up inane shit to excuse away kiddies aboard ships because I do like that.

If you go to the MA "Threshold" page, Brannon, the writers, and the rest of the production staff have excuse and explanations for that episode which are just as plausible as the "Bring along the kiddies so they can die too" horseshit you've been "explaining".

The 1st episode of the 1st season saw the ENT-D and all the kiddies aboard threatened with destruction if Picard didn't talk around Q. A handful of episodes in the same season saw the same ships with the same load of kiddies *just* escaping destruction too. Ditto all the following seasons too. There's even an episode where Picard activates the self-destruct mechanism because some entity has trapped the ship in an experiment of some sort while giving everyone an hour or two to spend time with their family. Reminded me of Goebbels and his wife poisoning their kids in the Fuhrer Bunker.

I can buy moron UFP politicians and a smug Fleet command thinking kids aboard starships is a good idea. What I can't buy is the same asshats thinking it's a good idea after the results start coming in. Year after year, the kiddies aboard ENT-D come *that* close to dying and we've got all the dead at Wolf-359 but somehow Starfleet doesn't get the memo until the Dominion War?

Sure. Pull my other leg. It plays an instrumental theme by Alexander Courage.

>>52555203
Actually, ENT and TOS us the same scale, based on a power input curve with C equal to warp 1. They changed that between ST:VI and TNG to a logarithmic curve with C still equal to warp 1, but warp 10 changed to an asymptotic point at infinity.

>>52555662
>People are saying that right now, just change "crew" to "tennants" or "owners".

Tenants and owners can step outside and walk around. It's a little bit harder for starship crews.

>>52556377
Think of it like this: We as fans choose what to reject, what to accept, and what to explain away. I don't see where you make the jump from picking & choosing to hypocrisy. This is a situation where we can have our cake and eat it too.

>>52556451

I can agree with that.

>>52556377
>Defending one inconsistency means an obligation to defend all inconsistencies

Or maybe some things can be made sense of while others can't

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>>52556451
>We as fans choose what to reject, what to accept, and what to explain away.

I have a whole damn list for this...

>>52557296
Such as?

>>52549933
>still keeps Elisa around
top tier taste desu

>>52551401
This desu, they always get compared in terms of ability and reputation, but I feel that - although they're both closer to the middle - the Order is more akin to SI, while the Tal Shiar is more approaching S31 territory

>>52553740
>>52553952
...and this is why I actually liked Beyond.

>>52560830
And why I liked First Contact. "The line must be drawn HERE" and all that.

>>52560614
Man, the Cardassian had so many good villains.

>>52560614
>"How many lights do you see, detective?"

>>52553952
Terra Prime did nothing wrong.

>>52561955
>not leaving Enterprise command crew behind on moon
They never would have tried so hard if Trip and T'Pol weren't there.

>>52561955
>antagonizing several technologically superior space faring empires, 2 of which are known for just flying off the handle and going to war with people, when your own military consists of 2 warp-5 capable cruisers and a smattering of light-defensive craft

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>>52553952
>we look forward and we see STO
...What do you mean 'we'?

Looking at STO as anything but an example of what not to do with the setting is a bad idea.

>>52562229
>Looking at STO as anything but an example of what not to do with the setting is a bad idea.
What would you do? Just curious, because everyone's ideas seem to be terrible.

>>52562281
Not that dude but I'd take some things from STO.

I think most of the Romulan stuff, if not perfect, is well structured. Having numerous states competing with each other after the destruction of the Empire is engaging and allows for an expanded look into the culture and politics of the Romulans and Remans.

I'd definitely drop the Iconians. Their presence annoys me and I'd rather they were left as a random, ancient empire.

The issue, i find, is that the Federation has run out of enemies. After the dominion war, the Klingons should be beyond fucked as a society. The Roms are similarly out of the picture. The Cardassians, the Dominion and the Breen are similarly declawed. That leaves very little room for a local power to act as the big bad.

So I might try and make the enemy an internal one. It always seems like there's some crazy fringe movement or unhinged admiral trying to "set the federation straight" only to be stopped at the final hurdle. So what if one of them actually gained power?

it would make a nice change from idea that the Federation is unbreakable and would allow for a much tenser conflict as long time friends come down on the side of the new order or the old. Not to mention providing the perfect opportunity to iron out some problems with the prime directive.

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>>52562281
Avoid continual escalation. Focus on space-politics, with room for a bit of action.

Walls of text incoming:

Following the events of Star Trek 2009's destruction of Romulus (as the last on-screen canon events of the prime timeline), the biggest crises would be the massive power shift following that. The theme for the Romulans right from the start was if they were not driven to be enemies of the Federation, it's possible they could be friends. However they're not good at making friends even with continuing improvements in relations seen before that and following the Dominion War.

Lacking the kind of beat-down Cardassia had, the Romulan people have a lot of pride, despite having to go so far as to call for Federation aid through Spock, who was seen as very dangerous by his supporters and detractors for his reform efforts. Given the destruction of the core of their empire's population and fleet yards. The leadership could easily have escaped the destruction but their legitimacy and ability to hold on to power is greatly in question, even though most of the fleet would still be active the core facilities are gone.

The Federation is attempting to deal with a continuing mess that extends far beyond their boarders and the Romulans. Having lead the coalition to victory they're stuck in a role of mediators and peacekeepers amongst the victors, the shadow of the Dominion War is decades long. Star Fleet whilst not at war, is stretched thin attempting to deal with the influx of those wanting federation protection/membership, including those that are technically in rebellion against powers the UFP is on ok terms with.

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This is a war-hardened, somewhat more inward-looking UFP, but still keeping to the ideals yet having to be restrained since they're having trouble with what they have, even without external pressures. It's the Superman dilemma; they have massive power but quite simply cannot be everywhere they're needed any more, and they still need to look after themselves. The Star Fleet is massive, yet still not enough. And perhaps it can't ever be enough on it's own. Unconventional methods clash hard with traditional idealists and proponents of military strength and expansion. Outright war is not on the horizon, but that doesn't make it peaceful.

The Klingons would be fucking loving the Romulan's situation. However with Martok's chancellorship they're likely to be somewhat more restrained from all-out invasion. Elements of internal conflict there as the classic, gradually self-destructive, greedy empire struggles against the attempts of Martok to restructure in a way to limit the individual power of the houses to make war, similar to the Tokugawa shogunate. And with the long-standing resentment between Klingons and Romulans, the Chancellor is very hard pressed to restrain those great houses that have not yet been brought under central control from constantly making trouble (read: they've gone off viking) for the Romulans and for his regime.

The Cardassians are in extended rebuilding, still not too UFP-friendly but not antagonistic. They're equivalent to post-WW2 Germany if there were no Soviets on the doorstep. A lot of smaller powers are always ready to nibble at the fringes of their space, leading to UFP intervention to try and prevent dozens of brushfire wars, not at all always successfully.

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The Breen retreated in fear of reprisals that never came following the war, and suffer much internal upheaval despite the lack of invading armies on the doorstep. What comes out of the end of it could easily be a major plot development if they chose to assert their position.

The Ferengi... remain the Ferengi, though have moved into a slightly different model than their unrestrained free-agent capitalism. There's more central state control through incentives, greed is tempered with a bit more responsibility towards those that provide (in the name of increased productivity through healthier, happier workers). They're not going socialist, but after Rom's short-lived tenure as Grand Nagus lead to outright uprisings and violence from all angles, things have calmed down with a shift in the status-quo mediating things back to a workable norm.

The Borg are a non-threat for now. They're the kind of villain that needs to be saved for OH SHIT factor, which they lost pretty much all of with Voyager.

The Dominion are dealing with their own mess. Actually outright losing a war yet not getting exterminated as they fully expected has lead to a lot of self-reflection amongst the Changelings. But sufficed to say: they will adapt. One big upset isn't going to radically change the course for them, but it will cause a change in approach. Though their future may not lay in violent conquest, certainly not in the Alpha Quadrant anyway given the massive strategic weakpoint the Wormhole was and the capabilities of their opposition. Contact will certainly be maintained though. But with the advent of the Quantum Slipstream drive, they won't be sufficiently isolated forever.

>>52563036
>Following the events of Star Trek 2009's destruction of Romulus (as the last on-screen canon events of the prime timeline), the biggest crises would be the massive power shift following that.
I liked the novel series where the Klingons insist on one last fuck you to the Romulans and make Remus and the Remans a protectorate of the Empire. Then again, I liked early Titan and some of the TNG relaunch. It gives Tuvok a happier ending than STO ever will.

>>52556377
Kys

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>>52563036
>>52563045
>>52563079
Anyway that's my general take on it which was pulled outa my ass on the spot.

Also Tomalok>Sela.
Sela should inexplicably die before anything I wrote happened so has no influence on anything. Because that character was awful in conception and execution. And they smell like wee. Yeah. I really don't like Sela.

>>52563090
Are any of the novels worth the time?

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>>52562281
(Not Him) I'm actually fine with the concept of much of the pre-timecop stuff in STO. I can even live with the "Iconians are behind everything" stuff. But I really, really hate the idea that the Iconians are some sort of nigh-apocalyptic threat that they are in STO, telporting willy-nilly like they do, having servant races that can build dyson spheres, and all that...and yet are stopped by Grand Admiral (You), even if it was some deus ex machina. The whole thing with the Undine, Elachi, and Vaaduar was to soften up the various space empires. This implies that the Iconians couldn't take them out as-is - which, they clearly could easily do. Blowing up a star to take out Romulus? Sure, I can buy that - some faggot could basically do it by himself with some help getting materials (Trek tech is way scarier than the writers could grasp). I could even buy there being some Ancient Aliens ships that were powerful and stuff - the Iconians have had 200k years to build stuff in some distant corner of the galaxy. I can even buy all the combat enhancements they did to themselves - again, they've had a long time to figure it out, even if there were only a few of them left. All of the actual missions you fly, the Iconians aren't much of a greater threat than anything else you face, even if they do have somewhat better space magic than you do. But in the fictional backdrop, there's no need for all that.
tl;dr, the Iconians should just be some old butthurt space empire like the rest.

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>>52563161
Slight addendum: The kind of plotline I'd expect to see in this:

SF wants to seriously up the defences of Earth but visibly stationing a fleet of warships at the heart of the federation is not only politically divisive (not entirely unwelcome) but Star Fleet sees it as a huge waste of manpower on a fleet that needs to be out protecting Earth before shit gets to it.

A compromise is reached in the construction of massive, almost entirely automated defensive platforms throughout the system on the order of what the Chintoka system had.

However in a twist that came about because of the fall of Romulus, the defences actually makes the Chintoka system look like just the Fortress of Verdun in comparison to the entire Maginot line. Sort of in violation of treaty yet also not, the majority (but not all) of these defences are Cloaked, Star Fleet Intelligence pulling a 'Defiant' style stunt where they're merely only licenced by the Romulan empire. Or rather, part of the Romulan empire that wanted out after the capital was lost. Most of the scarce crews of these extra defences are actually Romulans.

The political ramifications of the defences being far larger than planned; obtained on the sly and also running only theoretically legal cloaking devices 24/7 to keep them concealed could be huge if it gets out. Star Fleet going beyond their remit with secret deals and dodgy funding, yet the defences have time and again been shown to be needed so there's some support. And the are for the mostly automated defences are manned by Romulans, overseen by Star Fleet Intelligence so there's a gigantic trust issue going on since the Empire isn't quite dead.

And of course that could all easily lead to a crisis right on Earth's doorstep that some enterprising crew would need to resolve through a combination of tech, punching and impassioned speeches.I'd opt for an optimistic end though, cloaks removed after destruction of much of the network.

>>52563385
Some are, some aren't. The DS9 relaunch really does feel like another season or two of the show, Titan is pretty much "At Home with the Rikers", TNG lets characters that aren't just Picard show real character growth (like Geordi getting a captaincy alongside Scotty) and even the Voyager relaunch isn't bad. Destiny is a complete clusterfuck, but it also shows Picard at his absolute lowest (as in, "Mister LaForge, you WILL build me Thalaron weapons to fight the Borg!"). Typhon Pact is alright to meh, but the Anti-Federation made up of the Romulans, Gorn, Breen and... somebody is fascinating. Overall the best novels are one off stuff like a A Stitch in Time, or the stuff detailing Data's resurrection and raising of Lal which I've recommended multiple times. Or self contained series like Vanguard, though that takes a lot of the punch from Wrath of Khan because of CBS.

>>52562822
>>52563506
Everything about the Iconians was perfectly fine and acceptable up until the point where they actually appeared.

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>>52563506
(cont.)
-Dyson spheres should be ancient-aliens stuff to even the Iconians. They would have adapted tech from them, maybe even figured out how to use them, but not made them. Maybe they could be Ancient Voth constructs - then it would make sense why the Voth were there in the first place, far, far away from their normal territory. The modern Voth are a degenerate husk of their former, more ancient selves, for whatever reason, but they still revere what they used to be, and even understand part of how to use the spheres. The whole thing with blasting subspace with the omegas was stupid; it'd be better to just have them defending the sphere from stupid noobs who don't know what they're dealing with.
-Speaking of, I'd change how the Voth were handled. They should be way more trouble than they are. Even in their degenerate state, they're way, way, WAY more advanced than everyone else. Even if they moved at Bajor speed, 20 MILLION YEARS is a long time. The Voth in the sphere should be a small garrison of useless faggots, and still be stomping the Alliance guys until Grand Admiral (You) comes along to save everyone's butts.
-The time travel stuff to stop the Iconians was fine. It should have stopped at that, though. The occasional mission with time travel is to be expected in STO - it is Trek, after all. Even having The Doctor come and visit, and then screwing over the Not'Kool was kinda neato. But having a whole arc based on one of the worst storylines in Trek was far too much. And that storyline was done and finished in the show; there were no loose ends that STO could tidy-up like some of the stuff the game does.

>>52562822
>The issue, i find, is that the Federation has run out of enemies.

Well, remember that the Dominion War ended in 2375, and Star Trek Online begins in 2409. That's 34 years.

The Soviet Union had been absolutely fucked over by the Nazis by around 1945. By 1979 they'd been fully recovered for years, were one of two superpowers on Earth, a nuclear nation capable of exerting immense political pressure, and had its fingers and finances in markets around the globe. Hell, even by 1955, ten years later, they were basically fully recovered.

Point being that the Klingons being down and out in 2375 doesn't mean that they will be 30 years later.

>So what if one of them actually gained power?

It would be fucking awful, that's what. It's not "Trek". Yeah, I know, STO isn't really "Trek", either, but the Federation as a whole are supposed to be the good guys, and all those rogue captains and admirals are just that: rogues, aberrations, in an otherwise perfectly functional society. Drifting from that is a fundamental mistake. And a "Federation Civil War", which seems to be what you're proposing, just sounds like a terrible idea.

>>52563698
I'd love to see (not STO, just in general) a Distant Origin faction take over the Voth and then apply for Federation membership privileges on the grounds that Earth is already a member world. This sets up a dilemma - do we allow the space dinosaurs in and potentially take over the Federation from within, or do we set a precedent for finders keepers in terms of planets?

>>52565967
That...is actually a good idea for a conflict. Although I think the Voth separatists could be used for a similar plot as it stands, if we're doing it in the STO setting.

>>52555662
>And keep in mind that a big chunk of the connie (the stardrive section) is devoted to only work stuff. I wonder how many of the NX crew gets their own quarters, even if it is just basically a closet with a bed and shower.
A lot of the NX is probably storage, tankage, or just structural mass. Aren't those catamaran booms that run aft past the saucer mostly full with engine gear? IIRC they were supposed to mimic the complicated intercooler/turbocharger setup on the P-38.

>>52562194
>warp-5 capable cruisers
>"""""cruisers"""""
In fairness, the Intrepid(s) were basically as shooty as NXs, just without the other cool stuff

All Space games are ultra gay, the only 2 popular ones that are not openly faggot loving child loving bastards are...

Are they going to use the money to make said games better or are the game designers going to Run away to Nigeria like Nigerians do?

>>52555662
From what we saw in STIII and VOY, even the Excelsior class had less personal space per crew member than the NX.

>>52567129
Probably because they just kept adding more people as they add more space. I'm not quite sure why this is so. It's funny, because both captain and xo in a connie get a decent suite (though enlisted get shoved into at least per room), while on the Excelsior (at four times the volume of a connie) the captain gets this little bedroom, which looks like it's even smaller than Archer's.

>>52566050
As im seeing it they would just apply a law about "abandoning planets and changing ownership" which could possibly anger the Gorn due to their way of going across the space thousands of years ago tagging planets left right and center and then when others either evolved on them or claimed them, they get buttmad and start waging war against the new owners.

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