/mtg/ - Legacy General

>>52458403
I've been testing Thalia Stompy recently, thinking its about time to take it to my LGS. I'm still debating on Reality Smasher vs Lodestone Golem

25 LANDS
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Cavern of Souls
3 City of Traitors
4 Eldrazi Temple
3 Karakas
5 Plains
3 Wasteland

24 CREATURES
2 Containment Priest
4 Eldrazi Displacer
3 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Reality Smasher
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
4 Thought-Knot Seer

11 OTHER SPELLS
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Mox Diamond
2 Smuggler's Copter
2 Umezawa's Jitte

SIDEBOARD
1 Armageddon
1 Containment Priest
2 Disenchant
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
3 Rest in Peace
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Thorn of Amethyst

>>52458403
Been testing Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver in my sideboard as a way to fight Miracles in UB Landstill. It's been not terrible so far.

Dead format
Dead thread

Like pottery

Spice you say? I'm still trying to make nourishing lich work. So far only managed 2-3 in an mtgo league and 1-3 in a gp side event. Deck fucking blows no matter how you slice it but it sure is spicy.

Will these replace the Onslaught cyclers in loam lists?
+Fetchable
+Sacs to KotR
-Hit by land-type hate

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>>52465354
I'm retarded.

>>52458726
Why not just play soldier stompy and ain't chrome mox better for these type of decks as you can lower the landcount while still being relevant to get into 3+ mana. How about forgetting lodestone golem and going with trinisphere to kill opponent brainstorms, combo pieces?

>>52465354
I dont know if they'll replace them but I expect to start seeing them. Honestly wouldn't be suprised to see them as 1 of in slower grindier decks. Helps against flood late game.

I currently play Abzan Company and Naya Burn in modern and want to get into legacy, but I can't decide whether I want to get into NicFit, Delver, or some kind of Stoneblade variant. Help?

>>52465354
Maybe
You can fetch for them, but the Onslaught ones only cost 1 to cycle.
I'd say yes because you can fetch for them but I'm not certain and I play a decent amount of 4c loam

>>52466548
Do you like winning? If yes: Delver.
Do you like winning with someones Casual pile? If yes: Nic Fit.
If no to both: Stoneblade.

>bought into 2 tundras 2 volcs this
week
>desperately trying to ebay other cards to feel less bad about it
>nothing selling

when does the pain end my dudes

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Will this see play in Aluren?

>>52468093
Definitely not. I would rather protect Aluren and I have my own counter magic for that.

>>52467377
Whe you give up on saving money and fully submit to the cardlust.

>>52467377
Drop unnecessary luxuries like gas, electricity and food.

>>52466548

Delver has a great early game and fares better against combo decks than nic fit. However if your meta is all midrange with very little combo nic fit is a lot more fun. Plus the value from Vet Explorer + Therapy gets me hard.

That being said: of the two main delver variants, BUG is for the Patricians while RUG is for insufferable tryhards that stifle your first fetchland.

>>52468508
At least he'll have the cardboard for winter shelter right?

>>52468512
>RUG
>Main

Are we just pretending like Grixis hasn't been the best performing Delver variant lately?

>>52462585
Hey doomsday guy,
What do you think about Sacland Doomsday as an introduction and transition into DDFT? The deck looks really fun, but I don't have the cash for 4xLED and Duals at the moment

>>52471522
You definitely give up some power but it's a good entry to doomsday if you're on a super thin budget. I haven't seen an updated list so I'd be interested in what one looked like. Not sure if anyone has touched it recently. If you're going to transition it into DDFT I'd get the led's first because you could play those in SLDD. You can also get away with just 3 LED's in DDFT so you can reduce your costs that way too.

Whats the overall better deck, R/G Lands or Infect? Don't know what to take to my local tournament

>>52471792

The primer on the source is old as hell, but nothing much has changed with the deck recently. Most notably was the addition of AD.

http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/sldd/
That's the list I'm planning on running. Manamorphose and RoF both seem kinda clunky. The deck also feels weird without brainstorm, but without fetches, I don't think they're worth playing

>>52468093

>Serpopard
>Can Snake

The absolute madmen.

>>52472147
This is all said without being super familiar with the piles in SLDD but...

Chain of vapor main is probably not needed. Lab man covers most of that ground. Could swap it for a chromatic sphere or another protection spell or a tendrils main which reduces the cost of certain piles. Likewise there may be better sideboard cards than chain. Massacre seems bad because you need a swamp. I'd play a death mark or something instead.

>>52472147
>>52472358
I just saw you have a tendrils main so disregard that. Should put the 4th decay in the boaRd I think. Youre a little slower than normal ddft so you likely can't win before CB/chalice/whatever comes down. Gonna need that decay, or a kgrip or something.

>>52472358
>>52472398
I forgot about the massacre clause, that was a bit on an oversight on my part.
Chain is probably getting dropped. Maybe I'll replace it's sideboard slot with a push or something. AD mainboard sounds like a good idea. Grip seems too expensive for this deck. With only single-shot mana, I don't think I can afford a 3 mana disenchant

I originally played doomsday in EDH, where Lab man is the only way to go. This whole counting to ten thing is kinda new for me.

>>52472553
You'll get used to counting to 10. If you already have some experience building piles it'll come easier.

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This is what I have been taking to recent legacy events. I like that it can play the aggressive delver game, but also slow down and grind value. I have also had good success against miracles (although the people who I play against aren't that experienced). I am definitely open to suggestions/spice that I can add.

>>52474655
Notion Thief is pure spice and a huge swing if you time it right. Are you sure it's worth being in red just for 4 maindeck bolts? I realize the card in insane but it seems like a lot of stress to put on your manabase.Punishing Fire package

>>52475173
I just really like bolt and red blast and they are great with snapcaster. I realize this is not the optimal delver build, but nobody where I play really punishes my greedy manabase so I just run 4 colors and call it good. notion thief is sweet, I might try it instead of the jace in the board.

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>>52474655
Fire Covenant is spicy AF and almost always a one-sided wrath in delver builds.

>>52465617
The deck started as a mashup between Eldrazi and D&T. It's actually better against combo than it would look at first glance; It's almost always going to jam Thalia, GOT or Chalice turn one often followed by TKS turn 2. After sideboarding you get access to 2x thorn and an extra containment priest if you want it. I do think some number of Trinisphere should be in the list, maybe trim 1x Jitte and 1x Reality Smasher to get them in? The copters are in there to counter the higher land count, allowing you to loot away land drops you don't want and fly in for damage at the same time. I've just never really liked soldier stompy, this list might not be as good, but it's a hell of a lot of fun and doesn't really seem to have too many horrible matchups.

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So I've been thinking about taking the plunge and buying into legacy. Out of all the decks I've tried on xmage, Shardless BUG has been my favorite deck so far. Is it safe to take going into an unknown meta? The only decks that I've had problems with so far are faster combo decks like reanimator/TES, but I'm assuming there are more matchups that we aren't suited for that BUG Delver could deal with a lot easier.

Anyone here have any experience playing the deck? Any spicy 1-ofs that I might not have heard about/seen before?

>>52476775
It's BUG dude. Basically the opposite of spice.

>>52476775
In my experience, shardless is a deck that is at its best when you adapt it to whatever metagame you are facing. I feel like the deck has a lot of flex spots, and what you put in those will determine how well you perform against the decks you face. The sideboard also has tons of options to choose from, so you need to have some idea of what you are going to face in order to properly build it. That being said, the deck has a lot of raw power behind it and you will always have a chance to do well. Its just if you want those last few percentage points, deckbuilding skill is more important than in other decks.

As for spice, you could play a white source + meddling mages in the board, or maybe try out yahenni's expertise instead of a second deluge

Where's that mono-red Sneak player that posts in here

How do you deal with Death & Taxes

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>tfw you play against a guy on xmage who kicks your ass and gives really good pointers and deck tech when you say you're going to concede

>>52476967
You have two real ways of dealing with D&T, combo out faster than they can resolve hate or grind them out. Turn 1/2 Sneak/Breaches for Griselbrand/Worldspine Wurm will almost always win you the game against D&T. If the game goes longer they will Revoker Sneak Attack and your life gets much harder, basically requiring you to Through the Breach a fatty or hardcast an Inferno Titan. When you sideboard bring in any sweeper effects that you have, Kozilek's Return or Fiery Confluence are great here. I'd recommend cutting some number of Chalice/Blood Moon to get the sweepers in; The are generally much better and often allow you to trade 3 for 1. If you have slower hands in this matchup it can be pretty tricky, but overall I think that Sneak and Breach is favored over D&T.

>>52477108
Thanks dawg, got an event on Sunday and I'm running a tweaked version of that list with Combustible Gearhulk you posted a while back

Why 4x Blood Moon in the main? Seems like more of a sideboard call

>>52477138
Blood Moon just wrecks the shit out of a lot of decks. There's a huge portion of the legacy meta that just flat loses to a turn one blood moon if it resolves. Pretty much any BUG deck, Lands, Eldrazi, Infect, Loam, and Delver (minus UR) either can't beat it or are severely compromised. Blood Moon also gives you another must counter threat against a huge number of decks that makes your Sneak/Breach more likely to resolve the next turn and win you the game. It's true that sometimes it's a dead card like in the Miracles or Sneak and Show match up, but it gives you so many free wins that I don't think I could ever sideboard it unless the meta was really weird. If I was playing in a meta overrun with spell based combo I might run Trinispheres main over Blood Moon.

do I play Esper or straight UW stoneblade?

>>52478095
I'm a man of Esper myself, I just love casting thought Seize with Stone forge and brainstorm though

>>52478107
which do you feels stacks up against miracles better?

>>52478162
I'd say Esper because of the discard and if you're running lingering souls that's really good against them too

>>52477138
Also, good luck! Let us know how it goes! I'd also be interested to see your tweeks, I've been messing around with my own list since I last posted it.

ban terminus

>>52478559
I don't think they will, even if I don't see how they could change the metagame without banning some cards...

I mean, even burn decks start running Top, 50% of the meta plays 4 delvers and/or 4 shamans, and 90% of people play FoW.

Either they start banning stuff, or they print a 7/3 hexproof flying trample for U.

>>52478812
Thing is this is just what happens to Eternal formats. Eventually there is a clear best deck and the format is mostly solved, banning cards can mix things up but then the dust will resettle and a new king will be crowned. Its just the way it goes.

>>52478968
This. The power level required for cards to create new decks or oust old decks is so high that they are extremely unlikely to get printed, or if they are, stay legal. The closest we've gotten to that in a quite a while is Leovold and Noble BUG pushing out Shardless to an extent. The only time you really see legacy get truly shaken up is when something is probably about to get the ban hammer like when Treasure Cruise and DTT were legal and pushing large swaths of the meta out of playability.

>>52479032
The problem with TC and DTT is that they give a huge advantage to decks that are already at the top of that hierarchy.

I'm still convinced that banning some cards (like Top) or unbanning others (like Wheel of Fortune) or even printing something real new (like "counter target creature spell unless its caster pays 2" for G or W)

>>52479173
>The problem with TC and DTT is that they give a huge advantage to decks that are already at the top of that hierarchy.

Yes and no. DTT took Solidarity from a solid tier 7 to tier 1 overnight. TC took UR delver from a good, playable tier 2/3 deck to tier 1. DTT also made Omnitell ridiculous as it gave the deck an insane way to reload. TC and DTT also made Shardless unplayable, Miracles joined the DTT fun, but was overall a bit worse, Stoneblade variants pretty much died. The result was actually a mixed bag, some tier 1 decks got a lot worse, or stayed the same and lots of lower tier deck got better or became insanely overpowered.

>unbanning others (like Wheel of Fortune)

If you want to see storm be absolutely ridiculous that would be one way to do it.

>banning some cards (like Top)

Honestly, if your looking to weaken/kill Miracles you ban Terminus/Counterbalance not top. Top is used in plenty of fair non-blue decks as a way to help them keep up with blue decks running Brainstorm and Ponder. The only real argument to be made against top (without consideration to miracles) is that it can cause time issues if people are slow at playing/don't know their deck.

>"counter target creature spell unless its caster pays 2" for G or W

This will literally never happen. It breaks the color pie in very fundamental ways. The closest you will probably ever get to this is Mana Tithe.

>>52479327
As a Miraclesfag; the best way to weaken the deck without outright killing it (which a ban on Terminus would do) or actually making the format significantly more retarded (which is what banning Top/Counterbalance would do)... is to ban Mentor.

Without Mentor, Miracles has a far more reasonable range of good/bad matchups. Namely, DnT-Eldrazi-12post are FAR harder to beat without Mentor. 12post is essentially impossible pre-board and even post-board if it has ways to deal with non-basic land hate you are still kind of fucked.

Which is incidentally why Big Eldrazi is a 0.01% matchup for Miracles right now. Ban Mentor and these decks can definitely put a damper on it's metagame percentages.

As for Unbans, we went over this in the previous thread. Earthcraft, Mind Twist, Frantic Search, Goblin Recruiter, and Mind's Desire are all RELATIVELY safe unbans.

Wheel of Fortune, Memory's Jar, and Windfall are fucking retarded cards and you should feel bad for even implying they are remotely safe. They are probably right behind the Delve spells, Mishra's Workshop, and the Power-Nine on the list of 'Shit that should absolutely never under any circumstances be let out of Vintage'.

>>52480000
>Wheel of Fortune, Memory's Jar, and Windfall are fucking retarded cards and you should feel bad for even implying they are remotely safe. They are probably right behind the Delve spells, Mishra's Workshop, and the Power-Nine on the list of 'Shit that should absolutely never under any circumstances be let out of Vintage'.

Was in response to:
>>52479173

Just played about the silliest match I've ever been a part of. Opponent's on some kind of mill deck. Hedron Crab, Archive Trap, the works. I catch them pants down game 1 and go off. Game 2 I board in Emrakul and nothing else. I'm on the "sit and wait until I can natural tendrils" plan since Doomsday-ing around Mill is a pain. It took SIX Emrakul triggers before they scooped it up. I don't know if they didn't realize what was happening or if it took them that long to figure out they had no outs or what.

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>>52479173
>Unbanning Wheel of Fortune
This kills the Legacy.

>>52480009
>>52479327
Yeah well, maybe I fucked up suggesting Wheel of Fortune. I just looked through the banlist and took one almost at random, without thinking through too much. Should have said Mind Twist.

Anyway I don't give a shit, when you can drop a fucking Emracool turn 2 on the board and no one bats an eye, why not spin the wheel of fortune and fuck the format even deeper.

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Why don't I ever see this in legacy?

>>52481951
Because decks that want to play that kind of thing have burning wish.

>>52481951
I tried it out in a storm list and it blew. Half your life is a lot.

>>52481951
Because either your deck can use Cunning or it can use Burning instead? Death Wish is fucking dicks.

>>52485205
I'd rather spend half my life to draw 4 cards, no one will expect that

Can I get advice on a filthy fucking casual deck here? I feel like the modern players will bully me if I ask there

>>52488465
Does it have old cards?

>>52488465
Go for it.

>>52488465
as long as you don't pretend its a competititve legacy deck we welcome casuals

>>52488704
yes and
>>52488890
ok!

So I recently found myself semi-frequently playing with a group of turbo casuals. and when I say turbo casuals, I mean people who play angel tribal and theme decks. So I wanted to build something terrible and fun to play at their level.

So digging through my old bulk box for ideas, I found a play set of dragon arch. one is in pretty rough condition, but I figure I can throw them in some ultra-pros and they'll be fine. I also have a few copies of supply//demand. so my initial thought for the deck is a multi-color creature toolbox deck.

Do you have any ideas for lines of play I could include in the deck beyond "tutor progenitals, slam it into play, win game" ?

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>>52489207
forgot my picture

>>52489207
Watchwolf and Fleecemane Lion are undercosted multicolored beaters.

Civic Saber and the Jund Hackblade-type cycle are a nice synergy alongside Transguild Courier, Knight of new Alara and Might of the Nephilim.

Just unban Survival of the Fittest.
Why is that card even on there?

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I would play the hell out of this card

>>52490175
Because it's pretty fucking broken. It enables Reanimator style decks that can blow up in your face super fast or grind you out with silver bullet creature packages.

>>52490206
That art is fucking awesome though.

>>52490295
I thought it would be played in an Abzan value deck with DRS and Vengevine plus silver bullets like Teeg with Survival for draw engine.

>>52490876
If survival was legal tomorrow the deck I'd try to build would be BUG. This gives you access to DRS for ramp and incidental grave hate, Decay/Force as catchalls, Vengvine for beats, Leovold and a smattering of other hateful creatures, Fetches and Brainstorm for filtering, and a reanimation package containing Griselbrand, Tidespout Tyrant, Iona, and whatever else you wanted. It'd actually play similar to BUG Alluren but with a much faster, easier to assemble, and more resilient "I win" button.

>>52491006
That actually seems really good. Is there any card on the banned list that doesnt benefit blue decks if it comes off though?

>>52491183
Maybe necro/bargain?

>>52491243
Necro and Bargain would be abused to hell and back by the storm decks of the format, which are blue. Necro/Bargain would probably also enable some degenerate UB Combo decks like they did back when they were legal. The only cards on the banned list that wouldn't give blue a boost that I can think of are Mindtwist, Goblin Recruiter, and Earthcraft. Cool thing is that Twist, Recruiter, and Earthcraft are a few of the more likely cards to come off the banned list.

>>52491434
recruiter will never come off. it just won't happen

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Why is this allowed?

>>52493867
It's not even that good. One of the cards that is highest on the list of potential Unrestrictions for Vintage IMO

Like, in a world of Dredge-Workshops-Oath-Gush. Library is just not all that great. It's a card that is only good in the Blue mirror and if you are playing Gush since that allows you to refill your hand so quickly. Otherwise, outside of your opening hand - it's close to a dead draw.

>>52493963
Except it's really good in the gush decks that make up a large portion of vintage right now.

>>52494580
Eh, it's a card that is good in that deck - but if it weren't there, they'd hardly even notice it was gone.

Like obviously Library is a powerful card, and every once in awhile it single-handedly wins you the game.

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So I've got a BUG Control list that has served me well in a podunk meta but I'm moving to the big city soon. I'm picking up a leovald but other than that are there any good spices floating around for the general meta?

>>52490206
Fauna Shaman is as close as you get.

I want into mtg, is duels reccomended? Do people even play it?

>>52495616
Get the old one instead
http://www.myabandonware.com/game/magic-the-gathering-duels-of-the-planeswalkers-9zu

It's faster and more fun to play.

>>52495560
Post list and we can help

what's the most fun stoneforge mystic deck?

>>52502650
best: Death and Taxes
most fun: http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=14131&d=284094&f=LE[/spolier]

https://deckstats.net/deck-12777248-4da76418c022614e22f8756045789050.html

r8

>>52474655

Dude, you would play TNN in a duel?

>>52468093
I've been running 1-2 copies of grand abolisher and it has been working pretty well, but I do like that CatSnek works against chalice and counterbalance while being easier on colors.

What's the reason Miracles is allowed to single-handedly dominate the format for 3+ straight years again?

>>52505592
Miracles and delver have been a solid 50% of the meta for that entire time but WOTC dont care.

>>52505625
Atleast there's more variety between Delvers than whether you die on turn 10 to Mentor or 30 to angels. Miracles is almost more than all viable Delvers put together.

>>52505698
It just speaks to the grasp the cantrip shell has on the format. Its pretty much pushed midrange completely out and the only other viable decks are either niche engine decks (elves/loam), straight combo (many that also run the cantrip package) or hate bears.

>>52505625
>Miracles and delver have been a solid 50% of the meta
Not really. I'll Refer you to:
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/metagame/legacy/full#online

Adding up Miracles+Delver variants = ~37%, a far cry from 50%. Are these decks over represented? Yes. Are they 50% of the meta? Not even close. Also, Keep in mind that these are online results, which don't properly represent how popular D&T is in paper due to the cost of Rishidan Port online. This most likely reduces the % of delver in paper as it's actually a pretty budget deck to build online.

>>52505625
>>52506131
Found the article about paper legacy I was looking for, It's a little out of date, but mostly jives with the current online results.

https://www.channelfireball.com/articles/legacy-metagame-analysis-october-2016/

Delver decks = 17.6%, Miracles = 16.6% for a total of 34.2% overall metagame share, which is pretty in line with what the 37% online results taking into account the increased number of people that play D&T in paper.

>>52503805
I hope you're not serious

>>52505774
there are plenty of viable midrange decks (that still run blue)

>>52505592
I've thought a Terminus ban was deserved for a while now.

>>52506131
>>52506286
Top tables scale really heavily towards cantrip decks. Just look at the results of Chiba and Louisville (50% cantrip decks in the top 64 for Chiba and 90% in top 32 of Louisville)

>>52507646
is there anything necessarily wrong with that though? high cantrip density reduces variance and rewards skillful play and good decision making. Its one of the reasons legacy is the most fun format. I have played decks without brainstorm/ponder, and I felt like I had fewer options available to me and I was more at the mercy of how my deck was stacked than how well I played.

>>52507742
There's nothing wrong with it other than the fact that Blue has most of the good cantrips/tutors.

>>52507769
I don't understand the obsession with "color balance" with legacy. so some of the most powerful older cards are blue, thats just how it is. I think its more important to have good archetype balance than color balance.

>>52479173
>Wheel
>Not baghdad
IT'S COOL ANON.
LET THE FORMAT BE ENGULFED IN FLAMES OF DREDGE.
TELL ME KID.
HOW DO YOU FEEL ABOUT
LED BAGHDAD TAP BAGHDAD POPLED?

>>52508601
I feel like every sideboard would start with 4x Leyline of the Void.

Has anybody played with/against RW Painter recently? How is it doing currently? I used to play it ages ago before I switched over to Big Red. I'm kinda feeling like with all the greedy blue decks running around in my meta having 8 Blasts/REBs and Blood Moon would be really good.

do I get the darksteel or modern masters Sword of Fire and Ice?

>>52508601
I FEEL INDIFFERENT

>>52510737
Why'd you get a sword to begin with?

>>>>52511018
because I bought 4 stoneforge mystics, a jitte and I don't have aether vials

>>52510737
Darksteel, don't be a pleb.

>>52510737
>>52511087
Silly

>>52511126
This. Either you get a work of art or you get Modern Masters and become more of a Weeb.

>>52508601
>Baghdad
OH GOD HANK NO

>>52505774
>Its pretty much pushed midrange completely out

Good riddance. Midrange was a mistake, and if you want it that much you can always play Standard.

A little less than a week out from SCG Worcester. Anyone going? Hope you've got your deck ready. What are you playing?

>>52508804
>side
Main.

>>52512369
I'd go if it weren't many hundreds of miles away. I'll have to settle for the May open in Louisville.

Hey DDFT guy, my roommate just asked if Demonic Consultation would be good in the deck for use with lab man. It gives a "natural" lab man kill, as in you can win without casting doomsday.
I figured that it's kinda pointless in a pile as you can get through them so fast anyway, and it's just another dead card most of the time.

>>52513306
Demonic Consultation is not legacy legal bro.

>>52513306
Banned my man, card is beyond broken.

Does RUG Delver/Threshold have enough room for Stifle and a Grove/Punishing package? Is 2 Fire 2 Grove worth the slots without going for playsets?

>>52513336
>>52513395
problem solved then

>>52513306
Well it's banned as others have said but I actually don't think I'd play it if it was unbanned. I'd try it in guess but wouldn't expect much. The risk of exiling key pieces is to high, at least with current builds, to use it as a tutor, and the natural lab man kill seems unlikely/risky.

Do any of you use Chinamen fakes and know of a good place to get them? I want to get into Legacy but fuck the ridiculous price barrier on dual lands. Im fine buying some of the commons but I am not shelling out $500 for a land.

>>52514455
Stop spending money on cardboard.

>>52514666
Thats what im trying to do. I want to build a legacy deck but Im not going to buy duals from Star of David Games. I said id buy the cheap cards cause theyre just a few dollars.

>>52493963

if you have multiples you can activate them in response to each other which is kind of nutty

>>52513408
What? Punishing fire package is not what you want to be doing in delver. It is way too slow, you don't have crop rotation/gamble/knight to find your pieces, you can't pick up grove to daze and it doesn't cast delver or cantrips. Rug delver doesn't want to run taiga, so it certainly doesn't want to run an unfetchable taiga that gives your opponent life

>>52514455
I have purchased from villa Zheng, his duals and fow are really good, have played with them in multiple tournaments and nobody has said a word. You just shoot him an email and he gives you a list of his cards and a link to buy them

>>52507641
ban was deserved the moment they printed a one mana instant wrath of god that goes over removal protection

I can't help but think anyone calling for a terminus ban hasn't played the format.

>>52518770
get your board wiped for one mana at least a couple of times before talking out of your ass

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>>52519031
Don't over extend noob.

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>>52519132
ever heard of creature based strategies?

>>52519209
you can build delver decks to have positive matchups against miracles. you win by never playing more than one threat at a time, so they never get more than a 1 for 1 on their terminus. just because some shitty creature deck like elves gets fucked by board wipes doesn't mean you can't build creature decks to play around it

>>52519269
>terminus is fine because you still can play decks focused on riding a single creature
>shitty creature deck like elves
I don't even play elves but damn you're retarded

>>52519269
Delver's not really a "creature deck". And Elves getting wrecked by board wipes would be fine if it forced UWx countertop into playing a generally weaker card like Supreme Verdict or Pyroclasm. Terminus is just too powerful for what it does, and if it was gone the monolithic UW Miracles shell would splinter back into half a dozen flavors of counter top, making the format more diverse.

>>52521153
Creatures, like any powerful permanent type, should have equally powerful answers.

>>52521489
Name a good non-sideboard answer to Countertop that's not Abrupt Decay and anything to JTMS that's not a JTMS of your own when you're ahead on cards.

>>52521489
But they arent powerful in comparison to the ridiculously powerful cantrips and blue counters. Even with being pushed to hell and back to help make them playable. The cantrip shell in Legacy is far too good to justify playing anything else. The only "creature" based strategies viable in this format are Elves which is more combo and Burn, which I play, where the creatures are quick enough to get under Terminus.

Just ban Brainstorm. Card is way too good. It forms the shell of nearly all Legacy decks. Its restricted in Vintage already so just ban it here for being too ubiquitous and too powerful.

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Dooooooom

>>52522359
in other words minor nerf to miracles that run wear//tear

>>52522226
This exactly. Miracles is strangling the format and hurting diversity. Even Eldrazi which was supposed to crush them is now relegated to the lower tiers. Theres little you can do against a deck with the best one mana removal, one mana better wrath of god, a powerful lock out and filter effect with Top + CB and Brainstorm to boot. They play a ton of basics so non basic land hate doesnt do anything they even get to lock you out harder with Blood Moon.

At least one card needs to be banned from Miracles. I dont care what it is but the strategy is too good and has been for too long.

>>52522336
>cantrip mafia swtiched to 4xPonder 4xPreordain

>>52522500
Which if you look at Pauper isn't nearly as busted, even though monoU Delver is essentially a Legacy deck.

>>52522417
Part of the reason for Eldrazi dying off is the recent rise in Blood Moon stompy decks. The archetype has gotten pretty popular recently due to the fact that it hate out all the greedy 3 color manabases. Turn one Blood Moon against eldrazi might as well be GG.

>he boards out FoW
There's literally no reason to do this

>>52524095
There are some matchups were Force is really bad. Card disadvantage can be a problem in mathcups where you don't need to stop early threats,

>>52522417
>>52524038
The other reason eldrazi is 'deign' is because people relized it had the same problem as MUD. Being it lives and dies on its opener, and has little interaction outside of chalice. Although the redundancy in creatures helped with this consistency issue. While MUD lacked the consistency of eldrazi, it had slightly more interaction with lodestone, it was also explosive with sundering titan, steel hellkite, wurmcoil and blight steel. And it was able to speed thees out easily if metal worker resolved.

How exactly does Tin Fins win?

>>52526412
What is there to be confused about? Hit with big creature and finish with storming with Griselbrand if they didn't die.

>>52526412
Based on this list: http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=15053&d=291107&f=LE

I'd say
>reanimate Griselbrand
>swing for 7
>draw a bunch of cards
>entomb and reanimate Children of Korlis
>wombo combo Grizzy and Children to draw your whole deck
>reanimate Emrakul with Shallow Grave
>Swing for 15
Seems like a kill to me

>>52526412
Casting Lethal Tendrils, Griselbrand beats, or Hardcasting Emrakul via Griselbrand and Children of Korlis loops.

>>52526412
They also can have a monastery mentor package in the SB to fight grave hate

>>52526521
>>52526527
>>52526533
That makes a lot more sense. I think the list I saw was just incredibly shitty

>>52521153
The problem with Terminus is the "instant" speed of miracles.

Miracles should have NEVER been able to cast for instant speed. There needs to be an errata to make it can't do that.

I want to do some kind of outlandish control.

Blue/White? Blue/Green?

I play mostly against infect, goblins, and elves but would like something I can kind of dance around them all.

>>52528593
I made a port of Modern Esper Control once, using Cunning Wish as a toolbox spell. It was surprisingly not as bad as I expected, but I don't know how it would fare against those decks. Supreme Verdict is a real card, though.

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>>52528593
>outlandish control

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>>52528593
Miraclestill is obscure and pretty fun to to play, it's my current pet/experiment deck. It's probably not as good as straight Miracles but has the added bonus of lots of legacy players don't know how to properly play against Standstill.

Maindeck:

2 Monastery Mentor
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Spell Pierce
2 Ponder
1 Entreat the Angels
2 Counterspell
2 Spell Snare
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Terminus
3 Standstill
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Island
1 Plains
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
4 Flooded Strand
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa
3 Mishra's Factory
1 Faerie Conclave

Sideboard:

3 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Mountain
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Counterbalance
1 Flusterstorm
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Disenchant
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Containment Priest

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>>52511664
But what if you get Japanese Darksteel though?

>>52524095
Sure there is, no reason to two-for-one yourself if you have good reason to believe you'll only encounter permanent-based disruption.

>>52529092
>has the added bonus of lots of legacy players don't know how to properly play against Standstill.

I was amazed how little the opponent drawing cards actually mattered if I could keep my gameplan rolling onwards.

>>52530979
What build were you playing against? The Miraclestill build actually leverages the extra card draw pretty well with Terminus, Counterspells, and Stp's.

>>52529092
I'm curious what you think the best way to play against standstill is. They way I often see people do it is by waiting until they can blow srands till and make their opponent discard to hand size. This seems bad, like you're virtually drawing them extra cards. I try to blow it ASAP, with a discard spell if I can.

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>>52531605
More of a point about Standstill as a card instead of the deck variants.

Can you win without triggering it?
Yes -> Dont trigger it.
No -> Trigger it and brave on.

I play pic related WIP thingy usually breaking it with a loot into more loot.

>>52531818
General consensus is usually popping it immediately. There's no benefit in waiting, since the SS player can simply wait for Factories and beat you down that way. You're just playing right into their hand.

>>52531818
Usually it's best to blow standstill quickly, the standstill player has designed their deck to slowly gain the advantage while standstill is on the table, the longer the standstill stays in play generally the more advantaged they are. I agree with you that waiting until the Standstill player would have 7 in hand and crack EOT is usually wrong. The problem is that lots of player take the latter route and it often will bite them badly.

>>52531872
I like it, that looks fun as hell to play against.

>>52531872
Why the Shivan Reefs over Scalding Tarns?

For what purpose would I run a split of REB and Pyro blast in the side if I'm only going to run 4 such spells total?

How's burning wish in ANT? Is there any worth to it?

>>52532658
Dodges meddling mage I guess

>>52532683
I don't see the merit in LARPing you have outs to spheres and hatebears in g1, just maindeck Decay or play TES and go off t1.

>>52532658
>>52532710
Cabal Therapy and Misdirection.

>>52532683
Burning wish is mostly a budget replacement for infernal tutor that can't be flashed back to PiF, which is an integral part of the "safe" kill chain (1 dark rit, 1 dark or cabal rit, LED, Infernal Tutor is Storm for 10 if the opponent is F6)

>>52533093
>budget replacement
>in a deck that otherwise costs 2k
For what purpose?

>>52532683
I think if you want a burning wish storm deck either TES or DDFT is better than slapping wishes in a Pif deck. Pif and Wishes don't play that well together.

>>52533093
>>52533277
Good point, thanks guys.

>>52532683

I tested it as a singleton and a double for a bit, and it's not a good fit. Needs initial red mana to do anything, and that often makes it slower than Infernal Tutor in a build full of black Rituals but without red ones.

>>52458403
>your favorite sideboard spice?

Sudden Demise and Liliana, the Last Hope for my Grixis Delver sideboard

There's some Elves and goblins decks in my meta

So how bout the new Amonkhet blue god? Will this help sea stompy?

>>52535799
For reference
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/cards/amonkhet/28657-kefnet-the-mindful

>>52535391
I did noticed that much of the time I still needed an infernal tutor despite having burning wish, thus negating much of the reason for running it.

>>52535799
>stompy deck
>having seven or more cards in hand
yeah, no. he sucks.

>>52536216
BUT just think you can bounce your city of traitors and play other ands and then replay it. Never sacrifice a city again! Clearly this card is what sea stompy needed to make it to tier 3

>>52536281
Wouldn't you be able tap city, play another land and use his activated to return city to your hand so it doesn't sac?

>>52532134
Poor fuck who went to legacy on his own terms. U/R duals are on the next on the buy list followed by project "aquire dem fetches"

>>52538506

Why would you want to?

>>52540426
You get to draw a card of of his activati9n as well and it may be relevant. I'm it saying it's a play you'd make all the time but could help in real grindy matchups

Looking for a fun creatureless build.

>Gonna shield them in copper or gold sleeves.

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>>52543164
Give your opponent Illusions of Grandeur. Make Donate great again.

>>52481951

Is there like an anti-False Cure that can prevent the life loss?

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>>52543554
>not using the superior donate effect
why even bother?

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>>52544809
That doesn't pitch to force senpai.

>>52545432
>doesn't pitch to force
Let's all be honest here, your not playing trix because it's good, your doing it for the lulz.

>>52545432
It can't get red blasted

>>52472190

Serpopards are an actual thing. Serpent Leopards.

>>52545472

I'm not playing U/B Reanimator because it's good; I'm playing it because everybody caught onto my Storm shitnanigans and I needed to mix things up. Doesn't mean I don't choose cards based on whether I can junk them to stop my opponent from stopping me from stopping their stopping my combo.

>>52541350

Paying four mana to draw a card is barely viable in Modern. It's only barely viable there because there aren't any good cards legal in the format.

>>52532658

There's no feasible scenario in which it would matter, but >>52532710 and >>52532962 are right that, theoretically, those cards would hose a quad, assuming that your opponent saw your hand, knew in G3 that those would be important enough to stop, and/or didn't have better things to name. Out of curiosity, what deck are you playing? Pyroblast is better than Red Blast if you need to accumulate storm count, but otherwise they're pretty much identical.

>>52524095

Force is really bad in control mirrors.

>>52524038

There's more to it than that; Eldrazi is great against a number of top-tier decks, but it gets hosed by a whole lot of low-tier and bush-league decks that aren't good against the format stalwarts. Painter, Dredge, Reanimator, Belcher, All Spells, and PSI completely wreck it.

>>52522336

GB2 Modern. There is literally nothing good that would come of banning Brainstorm, and it's not rocket surgery to figure out why. Card saturation is significantly less important than archetype saturation, and Brainstorm does a whole lot to prevent the latter. Modern, on the other hand, is precisely the place to be if you don't mind the latter. God forbid there are good cards in a format.

>>52505774

Maybe a better way of looking at it is that the "midrange" cards were pretty bad to begin with, so there's no reason to run them when you could run good cards like Confidant, Thalia, Thalia, or even Tireless Tracker.

>>52547616
>stop my opponent from stopping me from stopping their stopping my combo
I lost you senpai.
>>52532658
I'd say there's no reason not to run a split unless you need to add to storm count or hit threashold. Dodging random "name a card" effects is good enough reason to play a split if there is no functional difference for your deck.

>>52547616
>what deck are you playing?
I have a miracles deck cobbled together for testing purposes and it's a lot of fun to play with and against, so I've decided to tune it and flesh out the sideboard. Looking at other lists suggested there was some merit to running a split of the aforementioned red spells.

Anyone have an updated Cephalid Breakfast build?

>>52553022
Cephalid Breakfast is old hat. Nourishing lich is the new hotness.

>>52553022
http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=1686&d=212650&f=LE
Joe Lossett thought it was good enough to run back in 2011. Obviously that build has some issues, but it's a good reference. Cut the Mental Missteps for Recruiter of the Guard and you got yourself a combo deck.

>>52556558
Heh, I don't think any number of changes would be enough to update Cephalid Breakfast.

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Is this viable in legacy ? Could you build a deck a around it, or something ?

>>52559311

Summary of todays legacy weekly: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GGXzlRoNtHU

Round 1: Pox, 2-0
Round 2: PoxLoam, 2-0
Round 3: UR Delver, 2-0
Round 4: Wg Taxes, 2-0

>>52559900
Seems playable enough, just doesn't go into any existing shell. We'll see in a year.

>>52559900
No. Viable in edh though.

>>52559926
>hit link expecting match footage
>find overwhelming dissapointment

>>52559926
>>52560189
My match summary from the MTGO tournament practice room today:
2-0 vs True Name BUG
2-1 vs Aluren
2-1 vs Belcher
0-2 vs Grixis Delver
2-1 vs Burn
2-1 vs Infect

I certainly dropped more games than our TES player, BUT I have footage of the first 2 matches. You'll have to deal with my rambling commentary though.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zqbHpKA4ces

>>52559900
No. 3-mana is a lot in the format, Shardless does a very similar thing while developing a body and having other incidental value. And Shardless isn't even really played right now.

Why am I winning games with this silly 9 Planeswalker Tezzerator deck. Why is Liquimetal Coating+Dack so hilarious. This deck is forged of memes.