>conquerer kingdom in an ancient setting >Establish new

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>>52368753

Yes anon, because as we all know democracy didn't exist in the ancient world.

>>52368753
>>52370107
Your (You)'s, my liege.

>>52370107
>kingdom vs a city state

>>52370146
Hegemony of much of Greece vs Kingdom.

Also.....Rome.

Some players just think "Well Athens had it, so we can too!" which I guess works in theory, but they build a government that is kind of based on a modern one, which doesn't translate super well.

It's not autism, more just garden variety piss poor planning.

>>52370107
Only land owning men could vote in Athens though, to my understanding.

>fantasy games
>historical accuracy
If your game isn't set in an actual, real historical setting who the fuck cares, you write the fictional cultures and nations

>>52370175
Plus you've got a much more streamlined process in government, as far as I know. Which isn't super far, so there's that.

Smaller electorate/population plus a medieval understanding of law means you have to fuck around less with making a labyrinth of laws.

>>52368753
>why are modern X always present in Y?
Because thats all people know and understand

>>52370175
True, but same for America for quite awhile.

Honestly Athenian democracy is incredibly interesting for a fantasy game. Imagine having to sway the assembly and feud with the leaders of the collectives and blocs that hold much of the votes. Imagine a fucking Cicero coming in to just shit all over the players and all they've done (Again, Rome. Shit was interesting, if different)

>>52370249
It's like asking "why are there always humans in the setting", or "why do all the NPCs speak english"

>>52370255
Is there a system out there that would allow the players to focus entirely on a social party that participated in that kind of gameplay almost exclusively?

All I can think of is Reign.

>>52370166
Rome was a glorified oligarchy with much of the outcomes determined by collusion among the senatorial elite. There's a reason the Gracchi got brutally fucking murdered.

>>52370308
>Implying we aren't also an oligarchy

Democracy, like all forms of collectivism, is a terrible idea.
Every democratic nation eventually falls because of it.

Back in the late 1700's and early 1800's when only white landowning males could vote, and voter turnout was like 2%, it was at least somewhat sustainable, because that was more of an oligarchy.
But now half the retards vote, and their vote counts just as much as the person who is incredibly informed.

>>52370335

I wish we were.
Obviously we aren't, or else Trump wouldn't have been elected.
Not that that's a bad thing.

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>>52370349
>We aren't an oligarchy, because the main ruler of our country is a billionaire

>>52370376

I'm curious what you think an oligarchy is.
Because you're obviously mistaken.

>>52370336
>democracy
>collectivist

the word you're looking for is populist, and democracy grew out of individualistic, humanist enlightenment philosophy

>>52370418

>the word you're looking for is populist,
Populism is a kind of collectivism, but thanks for the constructive criticism.

>and democracy grew out of individualistic, humanist enlightenment philosophy
Yes, I'm very aware of the good intentions behind it.
If it hadn't been so corrupted from its original form, we'd have a pretty solid government.

>>52370389
First page of the wiki:
"Oligarchy (from Greek ὀλιγαρχία (oligarkhía); from ὀλίγος (olígos), meaning 'few', and ἄρχω (arkho), meaning 'to rule or to command')[1][2][3] is a form of power structure in which power rests with a small number of people. These people might be distinguished by nobility, wealth, family ties, education or corporate, religious or military control."

Now, doesn't that sound like a lot of modern countries?
Now, maybe not so muh the nobility or religious bit.
But by wealth (Not a lot of poor people, if any, in government), family ties (*my father intensifies*), education (The rich can afford to get better education/send their children to better schools), and corporate (This should be obvious), we are definitely an oligarchy.

>>52370175
So? Still democracy.

>>52370470

You're missing some very key critical thinking skills there, m8.
In fact, I think you missed the point of my very first post.

>>52370493
Not a modern democracy style, though.

.>>52370457

So what kind of non collectivism do you advocate? Some kind of test or bloodline qualifications where only the top 5% decide?

>>52370510
your just shitposting at this point arnt you

>>52370544
The whole thread went from 0 to /pol/ real fucking quick anon, it's gonna all be shitposting real quick.

>>52370556
good point

>>52370533

It depends on the specifics, but the best historical governments were oligarchies, dictatorships, limited constitutional monarchies, and very limited democracies (early American government).
They all have their problems though.
There's likely no perfect solution.
What I do know however, is that people end up with the exact government that they deserve.

>>52370544

Nope. Just pointing out the non-sequitur in your argument.

>PC is a king, far from his kingdom
>Conquers a small city as part of ousting the BBEG
>Installs his brother, who is my ally as ruler
>Other PCs surprised, thinking I'd make the plucky leader of La Resistance the new king.

Bunch of plebs every one of them.

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>medieval setting
>players immediately expect a noble character to be evil because he thinks commonfolk are inferior

>>52370594
then post an actual argument, that makes sense
because expecting me to know which of your posts is the first on a gotdamn anon board, and expecting me to suddenly magically think your point was correct is just plain goofy

What is Switzerland

What is Athens

What is early Rome

What is Viking Age Scandinavia (To a point)

>>52370619

Wait, you think I've been arguing, or trying to make an argument?
That's news to me.

>>52370647
you an aussie, cause this is some next level shitposting
and you ant be a leaf because leaves are too stupid for this

>>52370682

Sweet insults brah
Really got me with dat fresh bantz

>>52370627
Oligarchies

>>52370627
None of these compare to the contemporary form of democracy.

>>52370702
no insut
just know youre secret
you godamn emu's bitch

>>52370734

Oh no, insut.
My bad man, no insut

>>52370766
good

>>52370533
>Some kind of test
Probably. Or at least set up some kind of non-elected vetting committee to ensure that corrupt dynasties can't try to seize power or allow moronic demagogues to get elected thanks to lies and ignorance. Like some kind of electoral college that operates before the general election and then lets the people choose their preferred candidate from the committees recommendations.

Also, greatly roll back the power of the executive (and to a lesser extent the judicial) in favor the legislative AND start transferring power back to the states from the federal.

>>52370107
Generally speaking however monarchies being overthrown for republics was extremely rare, Rome is the only real notable example up until the French Revolution, compare that to various other noble houses that were conquered or overthrown.

>>52370376
If the country was an oligarchy or at least more an oligarchy as opposed to a democracy with an ultra-rich upper class with an excessive influence on the popularly elected government, then Clinton would have won. Trump won because he was able to rally a fairly wide voting base of people that felt marginalized.

>>52370808

Where would the vetting committee come from? And you'd also have to reduce the judicial branch as well, they've got all the insane power now. Their opinion is law, and there really isn't shit the legislature or really even the executive branch can do about it.

>>52370926
>Where would the vetting committee come from?
Good question. Appointed by the legislature perhaps? Or maybe have tiers of citizenship, with some higher tier responsible for the "primaries" and the lower tier responsible for the "general election."

I mentioned that the judicial needs to have some reduction in power, but, in my opinion, it's the executive that's been grabbing power for the last six decades. The judicial hasn't really increase in scope since Marbury v Madison.

In theory, Congress could impeach a Justice, but it's never been done.

>>52368753
You reminded me of a great twist related to this kinda thing.
I read it in some forgettable webcomic, but I’ll see if I can greentext it up quick.

>Be group of friends of various races
>Goblin girl in group is revealed to be secretly a princess
>She has to go back home because her frail father died or something
>Roadtrip!
>Get to goblin kingdom, everyone welcomed by noble general
>Get taken to Vizier who’s been running kingdom for years while king was sick
>According to laws, goblin girl is now to be queen and take over
>Vizier springs plot to legally kill her and take possession of the kingdom
>whatatotalsurprise.jpg
>group kicks ass and, with the noble general, defeats the vizier
>Goblin girl decides that she wants to keeps traveling with friends
>She leaves the kingdom in the capable and trusted hands of… the vizier.
>She never wanted to rule and he’s not only experienced, but also one of the few goblins smart enough to do a good job.
>She just wasn’t gonna forfeit her birthright, or fortune, without a fight.
>Best end for everyone

My favorite part was when the general grumbles before the trap was sprung that the vizier already ran everything so the whole idea was stupidly pointless.

>>52370606
But that does probably mean he's evil.
Good is putting others before yourself, while evil is putting yourself before others, and it sounds like this guy but his needs above all the commonfolk so he's evil.
I mean he could be good if he thinks they're inferior but still doesn't treat them like dirt.

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>>52370308
>Rome was a glorified oligarchy
>glorified oligarchy

yeah, that's what OP said, a democracy.

>>52370107
Sparta > Greece

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>>52371417
>>52370606
I can imagine a hero honestly fighting for good, believing in good, and also believing that many others are lessers that are not important.

>>52371507
Fuck I meant Sparta > Athens

Whatever, Sparta is based as fuck

>>52371417
Ever hear of "the white man's burden" you dumbfuck? just because you assume you're superior by birthright or magic shoelaces or whatever doesn't mean you can't be empathetic or compassionate.

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>>52371503

>>52371568
>I mean he could be good if he thinks they're inferior but still doesn't treat them like dirt.
You're obviously inferior to me because you lack basic reading comprehension, but I'm good so I'll spoonfeed you anyway!

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My kind of thread.

What you should actually do in this situation, OP, is make it a teachable moment.

Let them start a democracy and then violently inject your historical biases into it until it explodes, treating it like the obvious, historically informed result.

This works on any political system they might implement, and everything else too.

See: Myfarog

>>52371417
It's perfectly consistent for a good noble character to see commonfolk as inferior but still put himself on the line for their sake, either because he thinks it's his duty, or because he just can't stand to see them suffering. Just like you go out of your way to help a starving puppy even though it never crosses your mind to see it as your equal.

>>52371959
I can see it now, half of the people that can vote, don't for various reasons.

>>52371013
And where does one find such fair, lawful and incorruptible people who would make up the vetting committee? Any power structure invites corruption, and you're not going to have humanity without it.

>>52371959
>wealthy businessman spends the first year giving soft bribes so he practically runs the system with the majority of the voting population under his payrole
>democracy votes to exile players
>then elect the merchant as god-king

Thanks for the democracy you cunts!

The only truly stable system involves an all powerful dictator who feels no love or connection to people and cannot die or be overthrown. Because it looks down on all people, there will be no corruption.

All men are equal under the gaze of Friend Computer, equal to zero.

>>52368753
Never had this happen in my games. Players always default to a brutal theocracy, even the militant fedora-tipper in the party. Especially that faggot.

>>52372205
To be fair, in a world of real gods with manifest will and quantifiable morality, there's no good reason to not have a theocracy.

>>52372262
The gods are just very powerful dudes, there is much outside their control.
No reason to necessarily conform to their morality.

>>52372358
>The gods are just very powerful dudes, there is much outside their control.

If they take part in the world significantly and often, there's every reason to conform to their morality or at least pretend to.

>>52370175

Initially, yes, but then voting was expanded to include all men. It all fell apart not long after.

>>52372487
If every civilization in the past came together and failed after some time, perhaps it's the way things naturally are.

>>52370335
Bernie plz go

>>52372358
Except they usually run the afterlife, so there's literally no reason not to curry their favor unless you're extremely shortsighted.

And besides, Good is good. Having a theocracy based around a Good god would be very pleasant for anyone who isn't Evil. Otherwise it wouldn't be Good. It's a no-lose situation.

>>52371524

He must have thighs of adamantium, holy shit that looks uncomfortable.

>>52368753
>>It's the most autistic, bureaucratic nightmare imaginable

So the Chinese after life?

>>52372410
If a god doesn't do well by his worshippers, demanding their prayers and souls for almost nothing in return, how is he different from a king who demands exorbitant taxes for no more than withholding his armies from their homes?

To demand a man's very soul and give him nothing worth even half as much is absolutely horrifying.

>>52372582
All things must fail, for no system or statute may stand against the whims of Time, which devours totally and without favoritism, prejudice, or bias.

To control Time would be to control everything.

>>52372689
Tyranny is the way world works. If you don't pay the king's taxes, he will send his men to ransack your home if he is merciful, or make an example of you if he's not.

If a god demands something from you, you give it or you find a different god so he can beat up the bad god, because you sure as hell aren't going to stand up to a god by yourself.

>>52372746
Well, then what's the point of living?

>>52370915
yeah, but he is taking advantage of them to farther his own interests, ie, to make money.

I would feel slightly more comfortable about this if I didn't feel as though he were mentally unstable.

>>52372771
Living doesn't require a point. It's a condition.

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>>52372689

Well shit dude, what are you gonna do about it?

Ancaps have a few valid insights about the way the world works, their problem is just that they think you can get around it.

Power is the capacity to harm people who can't harm you back, and all politics is based around power.

Your right to property, wealth, and life only exists insofar as the people holding power use it to harm people who violate those rights.

If they decide you don't have it anymore, tough luck champ.

>>52372648
fragile human detected

>>52372689
If such a case were possible, then I'd agree. But a god that is full of shit is not Good and no reasonable person would worship him. They'd just move on to a god that actually does his job and gives them a proper afterlife. Therefore you're scenario doesn't make sense.

You might as well posit a scenario where all gods are demons and everyone's fucked no matter what. It's so divorced from the original context that it's a meaningless statement.

>>52368753
Wasn't the Indus Valley civilization a democracy? I remember that there was a not-greece culture that was a democrcy long ago.

>>52371263
>goblins
>forfeiting power
>forfeiting money
I call bullshit

>>52370728
Anon, Swiss democracy is still roughly the same as it was immediately after the founding.

>>52370627
You forgot Venice and Novgorod.

>>52368753
A lot of people have trouble separating their own feelings from their characters'. They don't really go 'all in' when committing to a character. I remember I was playing an RPG where we all made pirate characters, and we were all rogue nobles in an early modern setting, but my character was the only one who was religious and supported the concept of a hierarchical/monarchical society.

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>>52371503

>>52374652
First, it was a mediocre webcomic.

Second:
>>goblins
>>forfeiting power
Delegating responsibility.
She's still the queen, she just gets to go be off "on sabbatical" while he wrangled idiots.

>>forfeiting money
Not a cent.
Hers is still hers. Plus I think she looted the treasure vault before leaving.

>>52372068
It wouldn't be hard to make up a less corrupt system than our current "corporations are people and therefore have the right to buy your entire government" shitfest.

Obviously you're always going to have to deal with corruption, but you could limit it by reinstating a meaningful state-federal divide as well as cunt-punching the courts and executive back into alignment so that we actually get some checks-and-balances in the three branches. Throw in some draconian limits on government-corporate personnel transfer, drastically redo campaign finance laws, etc.

The idea behind the "vetting committee" is just to ensure that we actually get qualified presidents instead of conmen like Obama and Trump.

>>52372167
Government by sociopathic vampires when?

>>52372785
I don't think he's that unstable, he just likes to talk shit. What's really distressing is that the Democrats/Left aren't taking his election as a wake-up call.

>>52368753
Oftentimes, players are not into history at all. Their frame of reference is only what they know, or two or three paragraphs of something they read in school years ago.

Does any elegan/tg/entleman have that greentext where the players derailed the OP's campaign to legalise gay marriage? I feel it would be appropriate for the thread.

>>52375350
>Obama
>Conman
>Not a mediocre Conservative Centrist leader who got cockblocked by insane radicals afraid of a black guy in the white house for 6+ years but still managed to make a couple of minor advances.

>>52375421
>le racism card
Kek. The only thing Obama advanced was the power of the executive branch.

>>52375468
>improved economy
>attempted to unfuck healthcare
>droned brown people

What's not to like?

>>52375521
>improved economy
He fixed a symptom, but the disease is still there.
>attempted to unfuck healthcare
Failure isn't an advance.
>droned brown people
Yeah, the great humanitarian. Really ended that war in the Middle East, didn't he?

>>52375521
>improved economy
No, he really really really didn't. The post-'08 "recovery" was anemic as fuck, and is just riding another bubble anyway.

>attempted to unfuck healthcare
By fucking it harder. Even if he had good intentions, you don't get a participation trophy for failing at national policy.

>droned brown people
Ok that's arguably good but the hypocrisy of him doing it staggering. Also inviting the people who's towns and families you just bombed into your country is probably not the smartest move.

>>52375552
The "disease" aka healthy capitalist society was there since like late 1960s. If you're going to cry about how the US government has worked for the past half a century but only point your finger at the black guy, lmao.

>>52375661
no, the disease is the blatant and rampant corruption in the American system.

>>52375521
>>attempted to unfuck healthcare
I, for one, 100% agree that Obama deserves an "An attempt was made" meme for his efforts and don't fault him for trying.

>>52375781
Obama didn't invent it. Neither did Clinton or Bush.

>>52375781
Dating back to the 1790s there, can you be more specific?

>>52375791
Nobody is saying that, but its hardly a "Healthy capitalist society".

Now lets be honest Obama wasnt great. But he did a few that was somewhat above average.

>>52375790
Well he didnt. the Democrats had a super majority and could have forced through single payer healthcare if they wanted.
Obamacare is exactly what Obama wanted, no more and no less.

Is it better then what was before? Without a doubt
Does that make it good? Nope.jpg

>>52375881
The legalized bribery of "campaign donations" and subsequent fucking over of the public in the name of oligarchial interests

>>52375915
Still dating back to the 1790s there.

>>52370915

The fuck are you talking about? Clinton got more votes.

>>52375922
Does that change anything?

"Oh the system was always rotten. So its ok!"

>>52375923
Indeed, Trump won because Clinton was to incompetent to play the electorial vote system.

Quite impressive after a lifetime of politics lol

>>52370627
The only real democracy, in the direct sense- as far as I know- is Switzerland. The others are all forms of oligarchy (or 'indirect democracy' or whatever buzzword of the day you want to use).

>>52375941
I'm trying to get you to open your eyes to the fact that the system isn't infected by some corrupting "other" influence. The system itself is the corrupting influence.

>>52372785
>Clever enough to rally a voting coalition out of marginalized voter to somehow earn financial profit
>Mentally unstable
Pick one

>>52371568

...are you trying to refute your own pount there or not?

Yes, someone who believes in "white man's burden" is harming the people they're claiming to help. They are evil even if they believe theyre doing good. Same as a fundamentalist burning people to death to "save their souls"

>>52375973
Well there is a corrupting "other", companies, billionaires and foreign gouverments (in the case of Shillary)

The system as of today is a source of corruption simply because thats how the corrupt prefer it. But in this case we do know that the egg came before the chicken

>>52375985
>Build schools, hospitals, and infrastructure
>We're harming them
>They throw us out and reject everything we have them
>People start to starve when nobody knows how to farm because it's evil white man technology
>We were the ones harming them though

Decolonization was a mistake.

>>52375892
The Dems at the time made the mistake of thinking that they could reason with the republicunts and be bipartisan. They made hundreds of concessions and revisions to get a bill that was a half baked version of what the Republicans had actually been arguing for for years. They could have dug in their heels, but Dems hate winning. It's like poison to them

>>52376009
Well that and the modern relief system is about as bad.

"We'l give you money, but if your economy starts to improve we'l give you less money! If it gets worse you get more!"

A literal incentive never to improve. I wonder what kind of mastermind conconcted that perticular plan to keep the africans in the stone age

>>52376009

Might want to read more history there.

>kill tens of millions of people

>destroy self sufficient economic base, replace with primary raw material export economy.

>create antagonistic classes of rulers based on privileging minority group clients.

>draw artificial borders cutting up cultural groups between multiple administrative regions

>claim to be helping

>>52376017
Yea, you'd think they woulda learned.

Or just gone back to a proper healthcare system when the Republicans refused to play anyway.

I guess you're right. I mean you have to be, what else could it be?

>>52376001
>In the case of Shillary
Buddy, it takes a special kind of stupid to be willfully ignorant of how far up Donald's ass Vlad's hand is.

>>52376009
Wut mate.

>Enslave whole countries.
>Divert all their natural resources.
>Keep them pretty much as low as possible.
>They revolt.
>They gain their 'independence'.
>We kill all their natural leaders and force the new leaders to sell all their natural resources to us for a paltry.
>Criminality goes up.
>Everything goes to shit.
>"It was better when they were slaves guys!"

I can't really argue with that last point, I'll admit. It really was better when they were enslaved.

>>52376054
Well then I'd it would be easy to offer me something to back that claim.

>>52376072
You can easily trace the involvement of Russian businesses financial ties to the Trump Organization for more than a decade with a simple google search. Donald jr. was a keynote speaker at a Moscow real estate conference back in '08, stating in his speech that "Russians make up a disproportionate cross-section of our [the Trump Organization's] assets. We see a lot of money pouring in from Russia."

>>52376234
Ok, Trump has financial ties to russia.
How incredibly shocking.

This does not mean that Trump is taking orders from Putin, but rather that he has an interest in normalizing the relations between the US and Not-USSR.

The latter of which I might add is reeling from trade embargoes shrinking its gdp with about 2% a year iirc, and need I remind you that the other candidate for presidentè was openly discussing going to war with russia over towelheads?

It seems to me that this is a good thing, but not that Trump is Putins sockpuppet.

I may be wrong, we'l see if Trump starts mandating tracksuits and vodka.

>>52376285

If the president has financial interests that benefit from his actions as president, he is violating the constitution and the emoluments clause and must be impeached.

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>>52370107
yeah but republics and democracies where almost always tiny

>>52376285
I wasn't so much defending Clinton as I was trying to set up
>>52376310
This.

Also, expect less track suits and more an affectation of "fake royalty," which seems to be the common ground stylistically between Putin and Trump.

>>52376061
>>Criminality goes up.
>>Everything goes to shit.

Agreed with you until this point.

Their countries are shit and always were shit.

But you have to see that >>52376009 is right too, these "oppressed" peoples have done nothing but support these oppressive kinds of policies as a sort of revenge against a percieved slight by (white) peoples only looking to help. Sadly every other country in the world was threatened by a white run Africa and sabotaged the whole thing into the ground.

It wasn't cruelty or racism that led them to do it, it was self preservation and closing the lid on a new power structure.

>>52376310
Well then I dare say that he does not legally have any financial interests that benefits from his actions as president.

Because the Democrats want him impeached
and the Republicans kind of want him impeached.

So if it had been that easy, it would have been underway already.

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>>52375387

>>52376344

Thats false. His assets are not in a blind trust. He has ties to his businesses and is giving those businesses preferential access to the white house. He is a criminal.

>>52376344
Nothing is ever that easy in American politics.

>>52376344

Also the republicans can't impeach him, they need him and support him as president. They're just as compromised and know that if he does go down he brings the party with him.

>>52376385
If Trump gets impeached and ousted, Mike "Don't praise God, become a lightning rod" Pence becomes president.

>>52375983
Cult leaders can rally large followings and are still mentally unstable. Not everything is a zero sum game, as much as that would ease your autism.

>>52376044
Man, if the Africans were ever going to use the resources under their land, they would have ended up conquering us instead.
As for the slaughter, there's been tons of that even outside of colonization, why should I care? The benefits far outweigh that negative.

>>52376061
Again, let me make the point, thats at least true about Africa:
It's true that they had a massive amount of resources that colonization utilized. But the fact is those resources were sitting under them for millions of years. If the Africans didn't utilize them by the time of colonization, they were never going to.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7tvauOJMHo

>>52376780
>But the fact is those resources were sitting under them for millions of years. If the Africans didn't utilize them by the time of colonization, they were never going to.
>Europe, 2000 BC
>Well those europeans have been there for 10s of thousands of years
>If they didn't utilize them by then, they were never going to

Your logic is retarded and doesn't take into account the scales of time involved at all.

>>52376234
>Hillary literally received millions of dollars directly from shitholes like Saudi Arabia
>h-hey guys, Trump did business with Russia once, we can't let this guy have the nuclear codes
Trump could have Putin's name tattooed on his bicep with a heart dotting the "i" and he'd still have been the less corrupt candidate.

>>52380536
>Supporting Russia over Saudi Arabia, America's greatest friend in the Middle East
Get outta here commmie

>>52380569
Israel is an actual friend in the Middle East. Saudia Arabia is a pit viper that we need to push away from our necks.

>>52380653
>(((Israel)))
>a friend

>>52380653
Israel was a mistake.

>>52380678
Eh, the government has a nasty habit of treating allies like enemies, but, as an American, I can't exactly get up in arms about something like that.

Their people are still, largely, modern Western-minded liberals. Their way of life is far more compatible with mine than the Saudis.

>>52380718
Probably.

>>52376009
>Give modern medicine, agriculture, and weaponry to cavemen
>Be surprised when caveman population explodes, STDs spread everywhere, and endemic warfare continues on a much bloodier scale
Anyone who tries to justify colonialism as something beneficial to those being colonized is a fucking retard, you take people living as hunter gatherers, force them to settle down, force modern technology on them, and try to force modern democracy on them, of course shit will explode.

>>52380653

>selling secrets and weaponry
>samsom option
>friend

They are good at playing the american lobbying system for their own benefit.

>>52381144
Not to mention that the existence of the Israeli state is indirectly responsible for the current generation of weeaboos in the US.

>>52376310
Then I guess every president ever has violated the constitution. The President is supposed to improve the nation, which we all benefit from including them, so of course every decision is in their (and therefor our) interest.

>>52376343
>Their countries are shit and always were shit.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzyaa2tfwBk

>>52385027
>Donald Trump still receives income from the accounts of the Trump Organization
>President Trump's travel expenditures are covered by tax revenue
>President Trump travels, without political or gubernatorial necessity, to locations every week
>President Trump by his own volition stays exclusively in the highest-exclusivity suites of resorts owned by the Trump Organization
Trump is abusing the office of the Presidency to enrich his personal finances at the expense of American taxpayers.

>>52385295
>Donald Trump still receives income from the accounts of the Trump Organization
But of course, it's his business, politics was never meant to be a career you know.
>President Trump's travel expenditures are covered by tax revenue
He is the leader of the state travelling on behalf of the state, do you expect every president to pay for everything?
>President Trump travels, without political or gubernatorial necessity, to locations every week
So you think.
>President Trump by his own volition stays exclusively in the highest-exclusivity suites of resorts owned by the Trump Organization
As befitting the leader of our nation, do you want him to stay in a motel 6?
>Trump is abusing the office of the Presidency to enrich his personal finances at the expense of American taxpayers.
Sure,the billionaire is making a profit off the presidency, meanwhile Bill actually stole from the white house.

>>52385368
One of those crimes is a felony. The other is high Treason.

>>52385368
Someone else did it so its okay is an argument made by literal toddlers.

>>52385416
well, that's the mentality of most Trump supporters so there you go

>>52385416
>Throwing the baby out with the bath water is an argument made by literal toddlers.

>>52371417
If you didn't think you were better than other people you wouldn't put yourself in harm's way to protect them because, since they're at least as good a defender as you, they can take care of themselves.

Being a hero is assuming that you are better than the people you protect. It would be infantilizing to them if you were not.

>>52385451
Trump lining his own pockets is not a baby. Spending exponentially more of the secret service's blank check budget is not a baby.

>>52380678
Sorry I mistyped, I meant "fiend"

"israel is an actual fiend in the middle east"

>>52385516
Look. All politicians are corrupt.

Just be glad it wasn't Hillary literally funding child sex rings for her Muslim handlers out of the Whitehouse basement.

Presidential race has always been the race for the lesser of two evils.

>>52385552
>believing pizzagate

>>52368753

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rStL7niR7gs

>>52385368
>trump stays at fancy places!

the fuck do you think the "presidential suite" got its name from?

>>52385552
Again, other people doing it doesn't make it okay. There are literally 6 year olds who have had this concept drilled into their heads. You're not going to get beat by a 6 year old, are you?

>>52370308
Ager Publicus was not meant to be given to the poor lazy.

Although to be fair, Rome is fascinating politically because of how so many men made a living of being "supporters" of politicians and just spending their days parroting what the politician says and shit talking other politicians.

>>52385584
meant for >>52385295

>>52385578
Thought we were roleplaying if every conspiracy theory was true in this thread.

Cause thats what you sound like.

>>52385604
If that were the case I'd be legitimately terrified at the thought of the President of the United States being almost completely illiterate by choice.

>>52385402
>One of those crimes is a felony. The other is high Treason.
Which ones pray tell?
>>52385416
Ah, but the difference is that someone else stole from the white house while the other one did nothing of the sort, in other words sarcasm.

>>52385578
It's all a joke until someone provides evidence.
In fact my friend and I were watching infowars videos when one of the interviewees brought up their record, and when the infowars press raddled off and explained some conspiracies we laughed too, until he got to the CIA bugging apps which wikileaks provided evidence for that same day.

>>52385725
"Someone else did something wrong, so the bar is now lowered." is an even worse argument to make than "Someone else did a thing, so I can too."
Billy walking out with some stuff 20 years ago does not make Donny wasting money to line his own pockets okay.

>>52385802
You fail to see the issue, Billy "hands off of Hillary" Clinton lined and is lining his pockets, Donny has done nothing of the sort.

>>52385835
Spending taxpayer money on frivolous things that directly add profits to him as an individual is doing exactly the same sort of thing.

>>52385882
>The president utilizing services is now a personal profit.

>>52385955
>the president utilizing services run by an organization that directly pays a dividend to him is now a personal profit
That's usually how it works, yes.
Follow me on this journey.

If the Trump Organization makes a lot of money, Trump personally makes a lot of money. Because they pay him.

So, if he makes the taxpayers give a lot of money to the Trump Organization, they'll make a lot of money. Try to keep up, I know this is the difficult part. When they make a lot of money, he personally makes a lot of money. So when he does something that makes them a lot of money, he is personally making a lot of money. And all of that particular money is coming straight from the taxpayers and going directly into his own pockets.
Spending taxpayer money is not inherently the problem. Spending taxpayer money in such a way as to personally be on the receiving end of that money is.

>>52368753
unless your players are serious historians or political scientists, the only system of government they have any experience with is a modern western bureaucratic democratic republic, and it colors their perceptions of how government functions.
Even their ideas of what kingdoms are reflect this, and their only concept of a dictatorship is one defined in juxtaposition to that system they know.

Something like the HRE or Ekaterina's Russia or even the Confucian Bureaucracies of ancient China are entirely beyond their comprehension.

It's hilarious watching them twist themselves into knots trying to figure out "who owns the forest."

>>52386053
So, you're mad because the president is choosing to use taxpayer money to stay at franchises he owns? Do you think services are free? And if he is making money so what? That's how a business works, I fail to see the problem, with a transaction when compared to theft.

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>>52386173
>modern western bureaucratic democratic republic
>and their only concept of a dictatorship is one defined in juxtaposition
I like you.

>>52386204
>That's how a business works
The government is not a business.
And if you fail to see the problem with the president literally lining his own pockets (And no, these are not "fair" transactions, it costs taxpayers far, faaaaaaar more for him to stay at Trump suites than it would at similar places, because they aren't secure and are probably price jacking because it's guaranteed no matter what they set the prices at) with taxpayer money, then you're a lost cause.

>>52375951
>Clinton was too incompetent to play to the entirely unelected cabal of 538 political insiders who nominally respect the will of the people but are in no way bound to their wishes in selecting a Chief Executive with extreme, relatively unchecked power, and the only checks on it are other political appointees, only some of which are nominally elected after having been selected for who is eligible to be elected by a cabal of political insiders.

An oligarch using the threat of popular uprising as a cudgel against other powerful oligarchs does not make him not an oligarch.

>>52386204
You know, most people would call that corruption, especially since so many of the trips are not necessary for public functions.

>>52386267
>The government is not a business.
Debatable.
But a hotel is certainly a business. And no hotels are secure. You're just mad the president doesn't stay in a hotel 6 and instead chooses to stay in places with his own employees and his own security.

>>52386295
>most people would call that corruption
And they would be incorrect.
>Necessary
That's a funny word, as you don't know what trips are "necessary" and what aren't, and the same people who would criticize a necessary trip would find no fault with the President visiting troops, which strictly speaking isn't necessary, or advised.

>>52386315
>his own security
The secret service does it all. Staying at his own hotels only has one benefit, and that's to himself. It's more expensive to taxpayers than staying at previously established presidential suites.
He is literally costing us money for his own benefit and no one else's.

>>52386288
>entirely unelected cabal of 538
Stopped reading there
My ballot clearly stated the electors who would vote if my candidate won my district.
I voted for them just as much as I voted for my candidate.

>>52386315
no, its not debateable. A government is not a business. The purpose of government is to govern. The purpose of a business is to make money.
It would cost far less money, and make more profit for this hypothetical "USCorp" to not have elections on any level. Most laws that are necessary for governing aren't if all we care about is keeping the population alive and happy enough to pay more money, but are necessary for the sake of having a functional society.

>>52386359
Choosing to specifically line your own pockets with public money is corruption. There is no other point to him staying at his own hotels. They're not cheaper or safer than any other given hotel with equivalent suites. Most of the time they're more expensive, because they know for a fact that the government will pay whatever price they feel like setting.

>>52386374
>The secret service does it all.
No they do not.
>Staying at his own hotels only has one benefit, and that's to himself.
Yes, and?
>It's more expensive to taxpayers than staying at previously established presidential suites.
Source?
>He is literally costing us money for his own benefit and no one else's.
I see employees don't exist anymore, yet you wouldn't complain if it was any other hotel, no?

>>52386471
>Yes, and?
And that's the entire point, you clod.

>I see employees don't exist anymore, yet you wouldn't complain if it was any other hotel, no?
If it was any other hotel, he wouldn't be personally getting that money into his own pockets, which would be fine with me. By the way, his employees get paid no matter where he stays, because I guarantee you that they don't work on commission.

>>52386392
It certainly is, both have the same goal, profit.
The definition of profit however depends on your priorities, and are not always financial.
>It would cost far less money, and make more profit for this hypothetical "USCorp" to not have elections on any level.
True, but that would violate the company charter.
>Most laws that are necessary for governing aren't if all we care about is keeping the population alive and happy enough to pay more money, but are necessary for the sake of having a functional society.
I think this has more to say about the government than a company, which would often choose to enact benefits for the workers.

>>52386471
>No they do not.
Yes they do. The secret service wouldn't fuck around and let some theoretical disgruntled baggage boy fuck up their entire reason for existing as an organization.

>>52386429
>Choosing to specifically line your own pockets with public money is corruption.
No, stealing from public money is, the President however is utilizing the service of a private group.
>There is no other point to him staying at his own hotels.
There doesn't have to be.
>They're not cheaper or safer than any other given hotel with equivalent suites.
Needs more data.
>Most of the time they're more expensive, because they know for a fact that the government will pay whatever price they feel like setting.
Just like any other hotel, which should be good enough for you comrade.

>>52386501
>And that's the entire point, you clod.
that a businessman benefits when people purchase their service?
>If it was any other hotel, he wouldn't be personally getting that money into his own pockets, which would be fine with me.
I feel you'd find something.
>By the way, his employees get paid no matter where he stays, because I guarantee you that they don't work on commission.
Not if no one does business with them.

>>52386524
The secret service has to work with the locals, this is a necessity.
When they aren't too busy fucking with their reason to exist by blowing money on hookers and blow.

>>52386538
> the President however is utilizing the service of a private group.
Of his own private group. Which is the problem.
>There doesn't have to be.
The POTUS has a certain standard to uphold. Ideally. It's a bit late, but we really shouldn't have a blatantly corrupt clown in office.
>Needs more data.
No, it really doesn't.
>>52386562
>that a businessman benefits when people purchase their service?
That a public figure benefits when he makes the taxpayers give him money outside of his official paycheck.
>I feel you'd find something.
It wouldn't be the same something unless he happens to own hotels not branded as Trump.
>Not if no one does business with them.
If they're relying on a government check, they're a shitty business that will go down in a year anyway.

>>52386584
>Of his own private group. Which is the problem.
How so?
>The POTUS has a certain standard to uphold. Ideally. It's a bit late, but we really shouldn't have a blatantly corrupt clown in office.
But Hillary lost.
>No, it really doesn't.
Yes it does as safety can be measured and there are many factors.
>That a public figure benefits when he makes the taxpayers give him money outside of his official paycheck.
The official paycheck is only to fill the void that the President's job would occupy, and that he has to return to.
>It wouldn't be the same something unless he happens to own hotels not branded as Trump.
What's the difference, a hotel is a hotel, yes he owns this one and turns a profit, but that's business.
>If they're relying on a government check, they're a shitty business that will go down in a year anyway.
Tell that to Elon Musk.

>>52386681
>How so?
It's corruption. A classic example of it, even.
>The official paycheck is only to fill the void that the President's job would occupy, and that he has to return to.
That's part of being the president. While the president, that has to be the most important thing. Priorities.
>What's the difference
The difference is that he owns it and profits directly from it and decides on his own how often to stay at them. So far, he's decided that a lot. A very, very lot.

But you clearly don't understand corruption or why it's bad, so feel free to reply to this.

>>52386507
>It certainly is, both have the same goal, profit.

Dude, I'm a hardcore fiscal conservative, but you're fucking retarded if you think a government is in ANY WAY like a business in its end goals and mandates.

>>52386681
You should run for office in Chicago. You'd get elected in a landslide.

>>52386730
>It's corruption. A classic example of it, even.
No it is not, and a classic example is bribery.
>That's part of being the president. While the president, that has to be the most important thing. Priorities.
I fail to see the problem, he no longer operates his business.
>The difference is that he owns it and profits directly from it
Of course, that's how a business works.
>and decides on his own how often to stay at them.
By all means, as the customer and what not.
>So far, he's decided that a lot. A very, very lot.
He's very,very satisfied with the service.

>But you clearly don't understand corruption or why it's bad
I am well aware of both, I simply don't see this as corruption.
>you're fucking retarded if you think a government is in ANY WAY like a business in its end goals and mandates.
What is the issue? The board decides on a coarse of action that the boss has to accomplish, this trickles down to the managers for the employees to work on, etc. etc. must fall within procedures so on so forth, can't go over budget ad nauseum.

>You should run for office in Chicago. You'd get elected in a landslide.
It would be an interesting career.

>>52370517

That's just a less than completely universal franchise, anon. Still a democracy.

>>52376017
Except you're not even close to right.
>The Dems at the time made the mistake of thinking that they could reason with the republicunts and be bipartisan. They made hundreds of concessions and revisions to get a bill that was a half baked version of what the Republicans had actually been arguing for for years. They could have dug in their heels, but Dems hate winning. It's like poison to them

The final headcount for republican votes for the ACA in its final form? 0. The democrats were dealing with the same thing the republicans are today; that just cause you have a little letter next to your name doesn't guarantee your vote.
Conservative democrats fought against single payer, Democratic leadership knew few if any republicans would vote for it (they were right, none did), so they needed to ensure their entire caucus was in line. Thats why the ACA is half baked.

>>52386507
>he definition of profit depends on your priorities, and are not always fiscal
oh. you're retarded, that's the problem here.

>>52387601
Insults will get you nowhere anon.

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>>52371503

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>>52372746
>you sure as hell aren't going to stand up to a god by yourself

Maybe YOU wouldn't you pussy.

>>52370257
Kek imagine that. Some Tolkien level invented fucking languages, some customs that have developed inside that culture and are almost incomprehensible to the PCs.

>>52376584
and the republicans go down in history as the party with the first fully impeached and ousted president, it will stain them forever

>>52370336
yeah we can't have retards like you voting :^)

>>52387864
>That's a smitin'

>giving yourself money from public funds for unnecessary expenditures
>not open corruption
Trump supporters actually fucking believe this.

>>52388776
>giving yourself
Trump no longer owns Trump Industries.

>>52388859
Show me fucking tax returns.

>>52388940
You already have some, why do you need more?

>>52381197
Please elaborate.

>>52388859

False. He no longer manages his brands. They still belong to him and revert to his control officially after he leaves the presidency (assuming he isnt effectively controlling them now, which his own statements suggest).

He has already used his office to personally enrich himself and his family, which is criminal corruption. Ivankas presence in the white house is illegal. His sons making real estate deals while advising him is illegal.

The republicans are just too cowardly, corrupt and complicit to do anything about it.

>>52370175
Wasn't their version of democracy more like a lottery and there wasn't even voting?
"If your rock comes out of the bingo machine, you get to be mayor for 3 years!"

>>52370175
But you're wrong

>>52388859
>Trump no longer owns Trump Industries.

There are people who actually seriously believe this even for a split second?

>>52392636
Gonna need some evidence otherwise because I'm fairly sure you're making illegal accusations against POTUS and that's not good

>>52386288
But he won regardless of the handful of faithless electors, and many states also have laws punishing any electors who go faithless.

Faithless electors definitely could hypothetically overturn an election against the will of the people who voted, but it didn't happen here.

>>52392207
They did have elections in which individual votes were counted, but most political positions were either appointed by random to any particular citizen or by random to everyone who showed up on that day during that morning.

>>52370517
universal suffrage was a mistake

>>52392653
What's he going to do about it? Make angry bird noises?

>>52386173
>It's hilarious watching them twist themselves into knots trying to figure out "who owns the forest."
...who does own the forest? Is it nobody? If I wanted to just start chopping down trees and building a house would nobody care?

>>52392901
Is there a noble nearby?

>>52386173
>It's hilarious watching them twist themselves into knots trying to figure out "who owns the forest."

The forest is a commons, management lies with the local community that uses its resources.

There you go.

>Confucian Bureaucracies

Imagine the leanest bureaucracy ever. Now slim it down to 1.5 posts and put those 1.5 posts in charge of a whole city. Police forces are staffed by personel from the local state milita, firemen are neighbourhood associations and all other services are outsourced to private citizens.

Nobody has any actual right to appeal and you gotta be among those bueraucrats to be have a legal status higher than that of any runaway cow.

>Something like the HRE
The Electoral College are rich as fuck and also Senators, judges, heads of the police and generals of the army. They elect the president from among themselves. Their campaign staff is the whole bureaucracy.

>>52392653
>I'm fairly sure you're making illegal accusations against POTUS and that's not good

Are you retarded? What do you think is illegal about pointing out the fact that trump is breaking the law by comingling his political and business interests?

I would LOVE if he tried to arrest someone for making those accusations about him. Then he would have to testify in court unser oath about his business relationships.

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First off:
>OP makes a complaint about a fictional political issue
>doesn't mention what game/setting he's using
>/tg/ and /pol/ take the bait

Now, assuming you're playing Dungeons & Dragons or a similar setting, you could try using some divine assistance. Pretty much every D&D setting save Dark Sun has an LG or LN god with intelligence and/or benevolence far beyond mortal comprehension, and pretty much every nation in that setting has at least one cleric capable of making easy contact with them by means of prayer or association with their associated outsiders. Pelor or Erastil (I'm going by 4E PoL since that's the last D&D edition I played) and their clerics practically live for this sort of thing. Set them up to provide divine guidance and advice (maybe not straight-up rule) and see what happens.

In real life a theocracy has as high a capacity of corruption as any other government if not more, but when A) objectively Good deities exist, B) are easily contacted, and C) can directly intervene in mortal affairs, it becomes slightly more workable.

If you're in a setting without that sort of power, then have fun dealing with human nature and reason.

>>52386173
>>52393091
what about the achaemenid bureaucracy?

>>52394495
A top-down HRE with much less barebone bureaucracy. Basically every Electorate has to deal with having a core staff of royally appointed aides on top of his or her native staff. Those aides are supposed to keep an eye on him and keep whatever's happening in the State line with national policy aims.

>>52368753
They're just following an established historic pattern. I mean, seriously, you just described the French Revolution in a nutshell.