/STG/ - Star Trek General

Is LUG difficult to get into for an inexperienced group? I've managed to convince some of my friends to try out RPGs and I'd rather not scare them away on their first outing.

>>52160334
Honestly, I'm not sure that any of the Trek RPG's are good for a first outing. You certainly could make it work. A good GM/group can make any system work. But unless you're all Star Trek fans, I would suggest trying something a little less ambitious.

Fantasy Flight has a fair few entry level RPGs, I'd start looking there.

>>52160621
Speaking of which, did anything ever come of that idea to have an RPG based on a runabout crew stranded in another reality?

>>52161181
I must have missed that one, care to elaborate?

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Here's the oddyssey dress variant I was talking about last thread. (On my shitty laptop)

>>52162476
I have that as dark navy blue for the main color, white for the stripe and strap, and the Motion Picture badge for division color. Looks snazzy.

>>52162476
STO's gigantic bridges will never not disgust me.

The uniform is kinda ok but it's very much an inelegant mashing together of two styles.

>>52162657

>gigantic bridges

Jesus yeah. As a TOS fag, I'm really glad to have the Connie/Pioneer bridges for my temporal ships. I'm sure the fans of the Intrepid are thankful for their bridge too.

>>52162657
i just like that it's a tunic rather than pajamas.

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>>52162476

>>52162657
>gigantic bridges
I blame WoW for this, actually. With the third-person view, people expect everything to be fuck-huge. They could easily limit the character (and camera) movement, but apparently the masses hate that.

>>52163008
The shoulder-level horizontal bar is what kills it by spoiling the lines.

>>52162790
Are they actually appropriately sized then?

>>52163274
Has nothing to do with WoW. Has everything to do with STO's engine being a bootstrapped Champions Online engine hastily reworked in about half a year so they could make the deadline after acquiring the license from Perpetual.

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>>52163345
>STO's engine being a bootstrapped Champions Online engine
...where everything was fuck-huge because of WoW and 3PV-camera.

It's not about technical aspects, but an artistic choice. People don't like the "limited" view, so this is what we get in most games, sadly.

>>52163459
I agree it was an artistic choice for Champions, but I doubt it had anything to do with WoW. Champions is very much a superhero game where things are larger-than-life with environments to match. With STO it was a technical issue because of them using the Champions engine.

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>>52163344
it bears common ancestry with TNG era dress uniforms, so that's to be expected.

>>52163459
>Supermegagiant-scale Attack Wing
That's actually sorta neat.

Speaking of Star Trek games, I wonder if fan games are also under strict scrutiny nowadays, just like fan movies are? (Obviously there'd need to be different rules for them, but still.)

>>52163566
That lacks the horizontal bar I'm on about though.

Also Riker has a beard-ghost.

>>52163704
The horizontal bar follows the line of the colour divide. Though i think it has more to do with the late DS9 era dress uniform.

I'll wholly agree that i think the uniform would be improved by its absence.

>>52163669
Seems to be fairly lenient. So long as you're making no money from it's production they don't give a shit. But that does come into question if your product would be a direct competitor to one of theirs.

>>52159538
>Reverse Engineered Character Creation
Thank you, anon.

>>52163801
>you're making no money from it's production they don't give a shit
Why do you claim this, after Axanar (and also Star Trek Continues, to some extend) ran into trouble?

>>52163344

Yeah. The TOS, VOY, and Belfast (Defiant) bridges are much closer to their real-world physical set sizes.

>>52163864
Because a number of fan games and mods have been produced in the same time scale as Axanar and STC without so much as a wagged finger in their direction. They pick and choose what to take down because they know where the money is. Axanar and STC are professional level productions, even if they are passion projects.

It's hard to level such ire against the likes of the STA 3 team or whoever made Lasers and Feelings because their user base will be relatively small.

>>52163459
>The giant d8s in the background

Never has anything been so necessary and unnecessary at the same time.

You are now aware that, after being stripped of rank for collusion to assassinate the leaders of both the UFP and Klingon Empire, admiral Cartwright changed his surname to Sisko, move home to New Orleans and opened a Creole restaurant with his family.

>>52164839

And didn't age a day for 80 years.

Oh, and Odo was the Federation officer who was going to shoot Gorkon's daughter at the conference. Wearing a mask, for some reason, the cheeky changeling bastard.

>>52164901
>And didn't age a day for 80 years.
Prophet pussy is a hell of a drug.

>>52164901
Shit like this makes that rumour about Discovery having some sort of multi-dimensional plotline to explain why the same actor was a Klingon, Romulan and Vulcan all alive at the same time just seem really damn unbelievable.

Also how about all dem Jeffery Coombes characters?

>>52165361
Be hold the terror of endless vat grown clones of SHRAN: F.C.A.!

>>52165361
Like how the novels had a convoluted multi-dimensional plotline to explain how all of Majel Roddenberry's characters were the same person, including the ship computer!

>>52165382

I'd watch a Trek show with Combs as the lead.

>>52165361

If this is going to be a thing, Discovery is TRYING to fail.

>>52165411
>WHY?!
Did that story really need to be told? There are enough real loose ends in the ST plots to fix. People need to stop trying to connect things and solve things that don't need solving.

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I got my hands on a NX-Refit in STO and I'd like to do something alternate universey. Thinking about naming it the U.E.S.P.A. (Something) and going full pacifist Earth, no Federation. What would the uniforms look like if UESPA was a confirmed uniformed agency?

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>>52166476

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I'm watching through TOS, and being about twenty episodes in, I have to ask:

How many of these episodes' plots fall along the lines of "demigodlike alien holds ship captive and fucks with the crew"?

>>52166476
Yoga pants, ugg boots, and baggy tee shirts.
UESPAS Basic Bitch.
Captain is a valley girl.

>>52166476
I can't think of anything that wouldn't just be TMP or TNG style Starfleet jumpsuits. A pacifist UESPA would still be a space exploration organization, which Starfleet preferred to be during the TNG era. Just avoid the increasing militarism caused by the Borg and Dominion. Maybe use the All Good Things uniforms, or the Diplomat uniform (DS9-era formal)?

I would imagine that such an organization would be more based on the NOAA but they just wear the same uniforms as the US Navy.

>>52166604
>How many of these episodes' plots fall along the lines of "demigodlike alien holds ship captive and fucks with the crew"?
Too many, though I do seem to remember those sorts of episodes being somewhat front-loaded, so you've probably had more than your fair share in the stuff you've watched.

>>52166604
Depending on your definition of 'demigod alien,' I'd say that's about half to 75% of the series, I'm afraid. Still fun, though.

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>>52165417
>Discovery is TRYING to fail

it's stream-only on a service nobody gives a shit about

>>52167546
>>52166925
they're not as prevalent as episodes where someone personally well known to the main bridge crew is the central guest star for no reason in a galactic federation of probably a couple trillion people

>old girlfriends
>former colleagues
>some kid i knew

then later on it gets stupid

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I still think Voyager could have been amazing if there were some actual STAKES to being in the Delta Quadrant. You know "We have to get more fuel/food/what-have-you or else we are marooned here..." And consistent damage...

>>52167886
It also didnt help that they declared in the first episode how many torpedoes they had and then proceeded to throughout the series to fire them like they were candy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PIGxMENwq1k

>>52167886
Consistent damage would have massively increased their fx spending; remember when they started out it was still using models and tracking shots in a shed somewhere, not CGI.

They did pretty frequently freak out about food/fuel/power, but it got wearing pretty quickly and by Year of Hell they were only really using it as a callback.

>>52168117
"no way to replace them" sounds more like "we haven't outfitted a lab for weapons construction out of spacedock and i don't want it done in front of the fucking warp core like everything else, and you bet your vulcan ass you won't be taking those things to the goddamned holodeck" than an actual practical concern.

presumably visiting a starbase or cadging them from another starship is the work of a few moments with the transporter, but with Voyager it's more of an arduous journey to find a world that works with antimatter warheads or trade for some with a passing ship and get by.

In fairness to them they didn't start pissing them away until Voyager was out of the technological wilderness of Kazon space, so presumably they found a supply or the precursor to a supply or just learned to ignore the rule that says you can't replicate photon torpedoes in the mess hall and assigned some science lab or other to do the work.

It honestly sounds like you two would have enjoyed a more supply-chain oriented drama like or or maybe the . Because those were all great, with the long scenes dealing with the minutiae of resupply and resource management.

>>52168378
>what even is early BSG: the post

>>52168378
Dude, i just want some internal consistency in my shows.
Hell, they could just once say something like "Captain, we scanned the asteroid field B 612 and found some unobtainium, our science department reports that we can now replicate photon torpedo warheads."

>>52167725
Be'Lana meeting her ex-boyfriend in the Delta Quadrant was, I think, the point where it couldn't get any more stupid.

>>52168696
>"Kazon raiders on sensors"
>"Set condition one throughout the ship, launch alert shuttles."
>everybody is either an alcoholic or on a journey to discover religion
>they have evidence that the Cardassians have infiltrated numerous crew position
>Drums everywhere

I'd watch the shit out of that.

>>52169581
I think Be'Lanna meeting a cult of Klingons that consider her child the new messiah in the Delta Quadrant might have been just a tad more silly.

>>52170358
>There is a story mission in STO where you gotta save Be'Lannas daughter from a group of zealous Klingons who go to the past and try to kill Kirk and blow up enterprise with their 25th century ships and weapons

>>52170543
>this is also STO's answer as to how the genetic virus from Enterprise was cured, thus resulting in a stable time loop
>STO has so many stable time loops at this point that the timeline looks like a fucking Celtic knot

>>52170603
The people at the Department of Temporal Investigations must be jumping out of windows at this point.

>>52167886
I've said it before and I'll say it again.

Star Trek: Equinox would have been a much better show.

>>52170710
Star Trek: Equinox would have been Voyager without the plot armour.

Also the ship was smaller and the crew smaller and if they played up the resource scarcity, isolation and gave the crew distinct and occasionally conflicting personalities they could have gotten a good Firefly sort of thing going.

>>52166111
Technically that anon is wrong about the ship's computer (She was just the one, and everyone was fucking terrified of it. Imagine the ep of Futurama where the Planet Express ship falls in love with Bender, but the focus is on her daughter and how she's not succeeding), but Peter David did do stupid shit in New Frontier. Including making a planet into an egg for the Great Bird of the Galaxy.

>>52170710
Then we could have had a riveting 2-parter where the Equinox comes across another Starfleet ship stranded in the Delta Quadrant. Fate seems to have dealt them a better hand and their ship is replete with all sorts of advanced alien technology. Their captain, Katherine Janeway seems upstanding and Captain Ransom recalls hearing of her before. A stalwart scientist, like himself.

However something isn't right. Janeway seems flippant about the casualties inflicted on both crews and insist that no-one speaks the names of the dead. She eventually confronts Ransom regarding his breaches of the prime directive. Ransom admits he is troubled by his past actions and will be more than willing to stand trial when they return to Earth.

Janeway isn't satisfied, she wants to strip every member of his crew of rank and install members of her own crew to operate the Equinox. Ransom refuses and challenges Janeway to prove that she has never broken the prime directive. She invites him to read her personal logs. What he finds is incredibly disturbing.

Janeway has not only broken the PD, she's twisted it into her own justification for acts of piracy, direct intervention in the affairs of other species, genocide and even assisting the Borg. Ransom informs his crew that they will be leaving before Janeway can find some excuse to have them all killed.

As they flee, an increasingly inchoate Janeway gives chase, demanding that the Equinox surrender or be destroyed. Ransom tries every trick in the book to escape her, but Janeway drives her ship into suicidal danger to hunt him down.

But before she can land the killing blow, she find herself dealing with a Maquis uprising, supported by some of her original crew. Voyager plummets through the atmosphere of a planet as Janeway and her first officer grapple for control. But for a single shuttle, carrying some of the rebellious crew, all hands are lost as the USS Voyager plows into the side of a mountain.

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>>52165361
>Also how about all dem Jeffery Coombes characters?

The ancient humanoids seeded the primordial ooze so that every planet would independently evolve Jeffrey Coombs.

>>52171612
I dig it.

So a question. How do you think other captains would handle the Dominion War? I doubt Picard would do very well.

>>52172072
Picard would focus on what he did focus on during the war, which was diplomacy, crisis management, and rallying the Federation behind the lines so the war could continue without distraction.

>>52172072
Janeway would be in her element. She can do almost anything no matter how morally bankrupt and justify it because "we're at war". It's like a reusable get out of jail free card.

Picard was no push over and knew how to fight. This is the man who got stabbed in the back and on seeing six inches of serrated steel sticking out of his chest started laughing.

Kirk would lay down an old school beating and either survive the war and become a cautionary tale told to Jem'Hadar or would die in a suitably heroic manner so that the Klingons can die of envy.

>>52172072
Picard would handle diplomacy and stuff away from the front lines. He knew how to fight, but he was in his element away from a direct conflict.

Janeway would run scouting and hit-and-run missions while coming up with deus ex scientia on a regular basis to fuck up the Dominion lines.

Kirk would fuck a Founder until they agreed to peace.

Archer would yell at everything and get his and his ship's asses handed to him on a regular basis, but saved at the nick of time. He accomplishes pretty much nothing yet is still hailed as a hero of the war.

>>52172210
Archer would go HURR DURR IMMA GAZELLE I BET THE SULIBAN DID THIS GAS THE FUTURE TEMPORAL WAR ALWAYS and get locked up in a padded room somewhere.

>>52172300
Kek, probably.

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>>52168378

The main problem is that VOY being able to make more photon torpedoes flies in the face of consistency with the rest of the show. Forget beaming through shields - replicating photon torpedoes means making more antimatter, meaning the ship has no energy crisis, and all the bullshit about the need to conserve energy is just that, bullshit.

The entire ship (minus the holodecks for some reason) is powered by antimatter. Antimatter they can't magic up out of thin air.

So, if you're just going to ignore the entire premise of the show, then why have the show in the first place? The interesting and deep characters? The clever and topical episodes exploring what it is to be human?

Fan service?

>>52170651

Everytime the word 'Enterprise' appears on a report, a DTI Agent beams themself into space.

>>52172072

KIRK: If they won't listen to one of my speeches, we'll give them both photon tubes.

PICARD: The time for speeches has passed. Fire all photon torpedoes Number One.

JANEWAY: The Jem'hadar come from eggs! Let's make some omelets!

ARCHER: I bet the Vulcans are behind this somehow. And I'm going to make a big deal about it RIGHT NOW.

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I'm really not sure how well Kirk would do in an all-out war. He's very much a frontiersman, used to being the biggest, scariest dude around who isn't some godlike thing, able to get through things (including a lot of problems of his own making) with sufficient guile and guts.

I don't think he's that much of a team-player. He advanced up the ranks very quickly, inevitably stepping on a lot of people on the way and just, well just look at TOS, or his actions throughout all the movies. That's a dude you fire off into the unknown to do their thing. He'd be wasted in a battle-line, even more so than Picard, and yet Picard could probably even make Fleet-Captain given his propensity for teamwork and properly canvassing options when it comes to serious shit.

Frankly I'd rather see Spock than Kirk in command if it came to a war, every single time he was in charge and Kirk was out of the way he was clearly the better officer for the same reasons Picard is.

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>It's a Ferengi episode

>>52172843
To be fair, the Vulcans did do some shady shit at the time.

>>52170358
uh technically that was the border of the alpha quadrant and they weren't looking for her specifically by name

>>52173042

>Frankly I'd rather see Spock than Kirk in command if it came to a war, every single time he was in charge and Kirk was out of the way he was clearly the better officer for the same reasons Picard is.
>Admiral "The Needs of the Many" Spock

Oh god, he'd go full Sherman.

>>52168696
Early BSG was 9 years later. Even Star Trek had been doing all-digital fx for years by then.

And BSG's cgi looks like shit, too.

>>52168773
It was probably in a script and got dropped for time before they finalized. It's inconceivable that they never tried to put it in, but it's fairly likely you'd pick up on a piece of continuity porn like that as dead air and drop it.

I take your point, but of course when Enterprise did it that way, everybody bitched.

>>52172734
Literally every race they meet has a supply of antimatter, powering their ships. Some of them are no doubt willing to trade (and Voyager likewise, when it has enough to get by), and even the description of antimatter isn't clear, other than that it's not the same as the real-world.

If you want to take it at its most basic level, they've got a deflector dish capable of emitting or inducing all kinds of crazy crap - logically including antimatter particles, if you take the broadest definition offered by the show. It stands to reason they've got smaller devices capable of same, and then it becomes a question of power - but since the ship has backup fusion generators as well as various smaller warp-cores that aren't constantly draining antimatter in the shuttles, it's not that important.

It really does seem more like the shock of being 75,000 light years from home takes a long time to sink in! If only they'd talked about that more, saying things like "I think the crew are getting used to..." or whatever more often.

Again, I get it - they didn't explicitly have an episode that said "this is the crew building new torpedoes and this is how they get more antimatter" - but that's not a story pitch in itself, so it'd never be made. It's just 45 minutes of technical crap that nobody wants to watch.

>>52173042
>I'm really not sure how well Kirk would do in an all-out war.
"Let them die."

>>52173206

Only because ENT decided to character assassinate the Vulcans for cheap drama.

>>52173638

>waah! I think everyone who complains about the technical aspects wants to watch logistics: the dramatizing!

Look buddy, I get that you want to just handwave it and ignore the ethical implications of salvaging antimatter or having to actually trade advanced tech to get more of it, or being forced to drain the tanks in the shuttles, or any of the other things that would have to be considered if the antimatter supply were in danger of being used up.

Instead we got Season 7 of TNG stretched into seven more seasons without any of the good characters or interesting episodes. It was just stupid situation after stupid situation with missed opportunities. And a bunch of holodeck episodes no one wanted (Cpt. Proton excepted).

And, for the record, your knowledge of Trek's technology is lacking. The deuterium reactors do not produce enough power to allow the ship to go to warp. Without antimatter, they're stuck at sublight speeds.

The deuterium reactors might be jury rigged to produce enough antimatter (assuming an Intrepid class even has the necessary equipment to make more) to get the warp core started again, but then there's the question of how many times they can get away with doing that before the warp core just doesn't start - which actually was brought up in a VOY episode, and then promptly forgotten.

As far as we know, the only starships capable of actually making antimatter are the Galaxy class ships because a.) they were big enough, and b.) they apparently put every tool you could ever need in the shed they called the stardrive section. Whether or not the deflector could produce enough antimatter to get the warp core online and restore warp capability is also not known.

And there's also the question of whether or not they can make spare parts for the deflector if they ruin it doing that.

Or that you don't have enough energy to replicate anything without the antimatter supply in the warp core.

>>52174025
By which you mean show them as being more than just Logic Logic Logic and some kind of unified pefect hivemind without flaws.

In which case, yes. Yes they did.

>>52174025
Enterprise did a lot of things wrong, the Vulcans weren't one of them.

>>52173042
Kirk is an excellent raider and small fleet captain. A lot of the reason Kirk went up the ranks quickly is because he proved he was one of the best captains the fleet had left at the time. Remember that of the 13 Constitutions the Federation launched as part of that 5 year mission, his was the only one to return. Of course, his mission reports read like he was doing fuckloads of drugs. "Oh yeah, we found a bald kid who could control ships with his mind, and pretended to be a puppet,"

>>52175178
Or the gangster planet.

Or the time Spock's brain was stolen.

Or the Nazi planet.

Or the Roman Empire planet.

Or the post-apocalyptic America planet.

Or...

>>52175304
The worst part about that is fleet sent people there after getting these reports, and they all agreed that yes, these planets existed.

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>>52175304
It works if you believe the episodes of TOS are based off of the reports that Kirk wrote rather than them actually happening. It also helps to imagine the attitudes of the admirals when receiving the reports.

I still don't understand what narrative reason there was for the Romulans and Cardassians to be separate races.
They were basically identical societies, with identical temperaments, tactics, military relationship to the Federation and general sneaky asshole imperialist nature.

>>52159538
#foundersdidnothingwrong

>>52175575
>It works if you believe the episodes of TOS are based off of the reports that Kirk wrote rather than them actually happening

Nah, that's no fun. I prefer to accept that it all actually happened.

>>52175655
Because the Cardassians were originally added to do a PTSD war veteran story, which they couldn't do with the Romulans, who until the end of season 1 were isolationist, or the Klingons, who were allies until season 4 of DS9.

>>52175655
>I still don't understand what narrative reason there was for the British and French to be separate Empires.
They were basically identical societies, with identical temperaments, tactics, military relationship to the rest of the world and general cocky asshole imperialist nature.

>>52175655
Romulans are more sneaky than Cardassians. While Cardies are more straight forward with their domination plans.

>>52175655
The Cardassians were originally meant as once off or minor recurring race, but they ended up getting more heavily involved because the writers decided to play up the Bajoran occupation as a big deal.

>>52175786
I dunno, the first time we meet the Cardassians they're trying to build secret military bases, trick Picard into violating the peace treaty and doing so apparently against the will of some of their people (as I take away from the younger cardassian envoy who talks about the horrors of the war)

Not to mention the sneakiness of trying to turn the episode into an O'Brien episode.

>>52175807
Sort of like that race that kidnapped a admiral's grandson and raised them as their own? I forgot their name but i'm pretty sure they were only in one episode.

>>52175014
>>52175168

The issue is that Nimoy did a lot of work fleshing out the Vulcans and reigning in a lot Gene's garbage. The whole neck pinch thing was Nimoy's insistence that Vulcans, as a logical and pacifist people, would have developed a non-lethal method of quickly removing a combatant without hurting them extensively.

The Vulcan mind meld and all that being some kind of hated mutation makes little sense, taking ENT and TOS into account, because it's only 90 years between the two. Sarek would have been born around the time of ENT, and the Vulcans who lived through this upheaval of the very fabric of their culture would have still been around, likely as prejudiced as ever.

Furthermore, the big deal that is the separation of the Romulans from the Vulcans is supposed to be from the adoption of Surak's teachings during his lifetime, and ENT's assertion that Surak's teachings were lost both flies in the face of established lore, but also any sort of common sense.

We didn't need ENT pissing on the Vulcans to show that the Vulcans are not perfect. We've had that since TOS, personified in Spock's relationship with his father. Before ENT we had Vulcans who pursued emotion rather than logic, we had Vulcans who took used their logic as an excuse to be traitors and warmongers, we had Vulcans who followed a false faith, we had Vulcans who were so deeply traumatized by PTSD that they became murderers. Hell, even Spock resorted to torture because it was the only repugnant option left.

So yeah, perfect hivemind, right?

>>52176303
>The Vulcan mind meld and all that being some kind of hated mutation makes little sense, taking ENT and TOS into account, because it's only 90 years between the two. Sarek would have been born around the time of ENT, and the Vulcans who lived through this upheaval of the very fabric of their culture would have still been around, likely as prejudiced as ever.
You're assuming they would have stayed prejudiced, or that later generations would have inherited their prejudice.

>Furthermore, the big deal that is the separation of the Romulans from the Vulcans is supposed to be from the adoption of Surak's teachings during his lifetime, and ENT's assertion that Surak's teachings were lost both flies in the face of established lore, but also any sort of common sense.
Yeah, because it's not like spiritual followers drifting from the original teachings has ever happened in real life, ever. That would be ridiculous to try and draw a parallel to such a thing.

>>52176040
Talarians

>>52176377

Prejudice doesn't disappear in two generations, and drawing parallels is extremely silly when one group is capable of space travel and transmitting thoughts to each other, and the other is a bunch of flea bitten desert savages.

>>52176405
That's them. I don't think they were ever mentioned or showed up again.

>>52176040
Because it's totally not kidnap when a bunch of humans kidnap a klingon and raise him as their own.

Does nobody in this shit galaxy check for next of kin?

>>52176422
>drawing parallels is extremely silly when one group is capable of space travel and transmitting thoughts to each other, and the other is a bunch of flea bitten desert savages.
Well pack it in guys, the foundations of science fiction are extremely silly, guess we better get rid of all this nonsense.

>>52176450
>lets just shovel popcorn into our mouths and watch pretty lightshows

>>52176427
They were mentioned a bunch. Gnerally as a reson for a charater to be somewhere else.

e.g: "Oh hey I'd love to resolve this entire episode's primary dispute 5 minutes iin, but I need to go meet with the Talarian ambassador about their commercial interests in the Arcturus Sector."

But yeah, they only appeared once.

>>52171612
Well, he is CLEARLY the highest form of humanoid life.

>>52176422
>Prejudice doesn't disappear in two generations

Spock, Sarek. Now name two more Vulcans from the Original Series.

We don't exactly see enough of the race to draw any conclusions about what Vulcans are like in the TOS era.

>>52177324
Hang on, just remembered that a fake Surak showed up in one episode. So let me edit: name two more Vulcans native to the TOS era.

>>52177400

T'Pau. T'Pring. Stonn. And all the other Vulcans present in Amok Time.

Next stupid question.

>>52177595
Shit, forgot Amok Time. I do remember that it's still hardly enough to be considered a representative example of the entire Vulcan race, or the opinions of Vulcan civilians. It's not a three-dimensional view of the Vulcan people.

>>52177595

I guess that wasn't really a question, so, rather:

"Next stupid demand."

Additionally, there are the Vulcans in the TAS episode "Yesteryear" which details some of Spock's childhood. Since I've never watched TAS aside from reviews of it, I can't actually name them. But I think the three I provided should be sufficient unless you'd to arbitrarily make it ten Vulcans or something.

The T'Pau in Amok Time is also the T'Pau from ENT. For some reason.

>>52177923
>For some reason.

Vulcans live a long time?

Also, I feel you're both rather missing the point, that the Vulcans we saw within the TOS era are hardly enough to draw any conclusions about the Vulcan race from 100-ish years earlier.

>>52177908
>>52178019

Are you counting the TMP movies? I always got the impression that the ceremonies and spiritualism were the products of thousands of years, rather than some kind of new age revival only 90 years old.

But whatever, you're defending ENT, so I don't actually have to engage with you. Instead I can mock your taste mercilessly and there's nothing you can do about it aside from insult me on Mongolian sweater spinning website.

>>52178058
Have I thrown a single insult yet?

>I always got the impression that the ceremonies and spiritualism were the products of thousands of years, rather than some kind of new age revival only 90 years old.

The Syranite movement wasn't new, and its extensive repression in Enterprise s a new thing that only started with V'Lar's regime in the Vulcan High Command.

Call Enterprise bad if you want, but it was better with plot holes then people give it credit for. They just don't pay attention.

>>52178166
*Whoops, not V'Lar. V'Las.

>>52178166

ENT is barely above VOY in quality. Seasons 1-2 are pretty bad, with the occasional decent episode. But the characters never coalesce into something interesting. Hoshi remains useless. Phlox is pro-Cosmic Plan. T'Pol was just a pair of bolt-ons to titillate mouthbreathers because it worked with Seven of Nine. Mayweather was from space. Archer was a paranoid delusional incapable of winning a fist fight to save his life. Tucker was catfish and stupid. Only Reed really grew or had anything interesting going on with him. And poor Porthos was just a cute dog caught in the middle of that wreck.

The Xindi Arc that was Season 3 was also bad, but bad in a different way, forever damaging Trek with the Temporal Cold War and inviting unwelcome Star Wars comparisons.

As for Season 4? It was pulling itself together, but it was already too late. The series finale is awful. Any promise ENT had was pissed away with that whimper of an ending.

As for Vulcans? Gee, they sure needed to get an origin story where their whole devotion to Surak and his philosophy comes from humans enabling a fringe religious group enact a coup. I'm glad you think that this was the kind of characterization they needed.

Right up there with Klingons being reduced down to battle mad morons with forehead ridges.

>>52178632
>Gee, they sure needed to get an origin story where their whole devotion to Surak and his philosophy comes from humans enabling a fringe religious group enact a coup.

You...weren't paying attention, were you? At all.

The Vulcans in ENT were always devoted to Surak. The question rested in the interpretation of his teachings - no original Surakian writings survived, and the writings that did exist had been changed over time (something like, what, 2000 years? That's a long-ass time even for a Vulcan) by various interpretations, not to mention political agendas.

The Syranites, by contrast, found the original writings of Surak himself. It's basically the equivalent of finding the literal, incontestable Gospel According to Jesus.

Which is my point. Enterprise showed Vulcans as being more three-dimensional than any previous version of them. It "humanized" them, for lack of a better term, moving them from being the perfect Logic Logic Logic to showing that, in fact, they're just as fallible as a society as everyone else in the Star Trek universe is.

>Right up there with Klingons being reduced down to battle mad morons with forehead ridges.

Yeah, you can thank The Next Generation for that.

>>52178963

Considering that Surak himself was a mind melder, that entire plot falls apart. He was capable of transmitting his thoughts directly to his followers, thus there was no need for a written gospel, nor was there a reason for his message to be distorted.

Thus rendering ENT's character assassination of the Vulcans as stupid as it is petty.

>>52178963
>Enterprise showed Vulcans as being more three-dimensional than any previous version of them. It "humanized" them, for lack of a better term, moving them from being the perfect Logic Logic Logic to showing that, in fact, they're just as fallible as a society as everyone else in the Star Trek universe is.

Except for all the previous incarnations showing them as entirely fallible, the logic thing being a coping strategy for an incredibly unstable, emotionally driven race that was worse than humanity in terms of trying to destroy themselves over petty bullshit.

Enterprise added nothing of value and took a lot from what was already there.

>>52172734
Did Voyager go on a lot about being short on antimatter? If not, they could have replicated some torpedo casings and filled them with antimatter from the warp engines' fuel tanks.

>>52179492

It was an entire plot point in Season 1. It's why they were hoping they could adapt the holodeck's goofy power source to the rest of the ship (but couldn't, because the writers just had to have their period holodramas).

>>52179825
In any case, isn't the Holodeck's dedicated power source fusion-based? It would be nothing compared to the output of a warp reactor, and probably wouldn't make a meaningful difference when added to the power that's available from the impulse fusion reactor.

>>52179940

We don't know, but what we do know is that the holodeck does act as a transporter/replicator to a certain degree, so that power source isn't insignificant.

If you were far from home, no starbases within your lifetime of travel at your fastest speed, and there was a very real possibility of something important breaking that cannot be fixed, or that you might run out of antimatter in a region of space where you may not be able to find a suitable source for it, wouldn't you want to scavenge the "let's play pretend" machine for those extra days/months/years of food and water that represents?

Who else misses the saucer shape for federation ships? It's so iconic and I'm sad to see it going away bit by bit.

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>>52180663
Why, where's it going?

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>>52180690
I'm not really sure where it's heading, but I'm going to miss it.

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>>52173638
>"bwahhh, logistical problems are boring, nobody wants to watch a show about supplies!"
>what even is early BSG
>"it was, uh, like, a decade later. Also, bwahhh, logistical problems are boring, nobody wants to watch a show about supplies!"
What did he mean by this?

>>52175655
REEEEEEEE OBSIDIANPOSTERS GET OUT, TAL SHIAR ARE OBJECTIVELY SUPERIOR

>>52176484
Abrams please stay.

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>>52180731
I don't think I follow what you're getting at.

>>52173638
>Literally every race
laughingromulans.jpeg

>>52178632
In terms of characterisation? I'd say on average, ENT was a little better, but VOY actually had some genuine /good/ with Tuvok, the Doctor, and Best Girl. Plus, and I feel like this is understated a little, the latter was really good at "crunch times". Like, the aliens of the week got stale really quick, but the actual battle scenes never really did.

Then, like the T'Pol debacle, ENT decided to keep the excessive explosions, and delegated the constant "oh shit we're falling apart" sitreps to Reed. Thus ruining one of the precious few good things about VOY.

>>52181031

Despite my obvious dislike of VOY and ENT, I don't think they're total lost causes. And, I agree with you about Tuvok, the Doctor, and Seven. The Doctor and Tuvok are among my favorite Trek regulars.

VOY did do a decent job with the battle scenes. It's just unfortunate that they didn't have weight beyond a single episode (or the occasional two-parter).

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>>52180873
It's okay, see, what I mean is that later ships are leaving the circular saucer behind and going for an arrowhead shape. See, that image is full of older ships which still have the circular saucer. Except for the Defiant which looks terrible.

>>52181129
Oh, you're on about things being circular. Also that ship is ugly. Looks like Voyager but wrong and fat and Voyager wasn't even that good in the first place.

>>52175786
>>52176023
Romulans are sneaky because they're constantly looking for the opportunity to get shit done with the least amount of risk/effort for the sake generating of political clout, while being open with plans promptly gets them backstabbed by a rival politician.

Cardassians were sneaky because their new ramshackle civilization was built on martial law, and quietly violating peace treaties and blindsiding border pickets were their only chance of actually getting anywhere with military force against the big boys.

>>52181183
Oh man, you're right, I didn't actually say I was talking about the circular saucer shape. I'm sorry about that. And yeah, the F is kind of ugly, I do like the two necks that connect to the secondary hull though.

>>52181262
I hate the two necks bit, much better to have a nice big solid connection, it just looks like it's trying too hard to be fancy for the sake of it.

>>52179060
As I recall only a smallish portion of Vulcans can mind meld, so it would be easier to have written versions so anyone could transmit his teachings.

Also, inevitably someone would disagree with some small detail and others would agree with them. If something like that caught on, or people misremembered something and didn't fact check, or whatever, things could get distorted pretty easily over a couple thousand years. Plus of course people interpreting statements as metaphors for something else, or misinterpreting metaphors.

If all you have is the Cliffs Notes version and some books commenting on the original, and the mind melders aren't actively keeping the original mind whatever out there, I could very easily see that happening.

Also I felt Enterprise's version of them was rather good, at least given the fact that the show made every species do at least some petty bickering and the like.

>>52181983

Except that the "only a smallish portion of Vulcans can mind meld" is a retcon. A retcon that is later retconned in the same series.

>>52181129
What's wrong with it's neck?

>>52182091
>Except that the "only a smallish portion of Vulcans can mind meld" is a retcon.

It's not a retcon - there's no way that they didn't intend that statement, that only some Vulcans can mind meld, to be an early signal that something is wrong with Vulcan culture in ENT as compared to later eras. It's called "foreshadowing".

>thus there was no need for a written gospel

Yes, there is, and a logical one at that. Surak was mortal. He could have died at any point, particularly since, y'know, Vulcan was in the midst of tearing itself apart with nuclear fire when he was doing his thing. Writing down his philosophies to ensure that even if he and everyone he'd ever met died, the message would still be extant, makes complete sense.

>nor was there a reason for his message to be distorted.

See, this is what I'm talking about. This presumption only makes sense if it comes from a person who is assuming that no Vulcan will ever decide to spin Surak's teachings to his or her own advantage. And this would make no sense in an actually three-dimensional culture and society.

>>52179217
No, we saw a few individual Vulcans as being fallible. We never saw nor implied any flaws in their society itself, and the reaction of Vulcaboo Trekkies to actually seeing Vulcans cast in a negative light is proof enough of that.

>>52180095
Keep in mind people also like having things to do, so they'd want to keep the space TV working as long as they felt they could get away with it.

>>52183474

>foreshadowing

I think not. You're giving too much credit to the fucksticks who gave us three days to Qo'noS at warp 5. It's just bad writers taking Trek in a direction that was unnecessary and ultimately uninteresting.

Someone, at some point, noticed that they were going to have to address why mind melds were so common later in Trek, and wrote it back in. That's it.

You can try to prop up the idea as much as you want, but ultimately this is why prequels to established stories are almost always bad. In ENT's case, it's that you have a bunch of people who've worked on Trek trying to maintain the status quo while also going in a different direction, and it doesn't work.

Hence why it never got a 5th season.

>>52183654

I'm sure people can watch old movies and read or play games or exercise in their spare time. The resource intensive holodeck is not the only alternative and was preserved solely so Jerry Taylor could write her shitty Jane Austin fanfiction.

>>52183751
I think you're giving them too little credit. Sure, they're going to mess up minor details like distances between worlds if the show doesn't put a focus on accuracy of random throwaway details, but ST has never been one to focus on that sort of thing. They stick to general guidelines, like time travel generates chronoton particles, but they don't have a library of every fact ever mentioned in any canon source that they can look at whenever they need a detail.

As for the holodeck, you'd want as many options as possible for your lifetime long journey, since you're going to eventually start running out of books to read, movies to watch, etc and having another option in there is going to keep the crew happier. They likely also felt they could find or trade for enough antimatter that it wouldn't be worth the relatively small additional power source, given the cost of removing it from the holodeck.

Also, from an out of universe standpoint, the writers aren't going to remove their ability to throw in the occasional holodeck episode.

>>52183751
>It's just bad writers taking Trek in a direction that was unnecessary and ultimately uninteresting.

I would adore you forever if you could provide the slightest bit of proof beyond your vitriol.

>>52183937

>no season 5 ENT ever
>ENT's final episode that retroactively ruins a good TNG episode

There.

>>52183949
My fault, I wasn't clear.

I would absolutely adore you forever if you could provide some degree of proof beyond your vitriol that the mind meld thing was merely "bad writing" and not intentional foreshadowing, particularly given that various other Vulcan-centric episodes in Season 1 of Enterprise, such as "Fallen Heroes", heavily suggested flaws in Vulcan culture not seen in later series.

At this point you're just willfully ignoring the foreshadowing in favor of holding onto your hate, Anon. Or as I think I'm going to call you, Ben Maxwell.

>>52183474
>We never saw nor implied any flaws in their society itself,

We only saw a few Vulcans, half of which (including Star Fleet ones) were assholes and one even a founding member of the Maquis who even Quark managed to poke massive holes in the logic of. And the couple of times we even saw Vulcan it was for their anachronistic ancient ritual shit involving events around an arranged marriage and violence, the completion of a ritual of purging all emotion that Spock decided to not go through with, jamming Spock's mind back in his body through ancient ritual shit followed by the computer asking how he feels, some tunnels where a Vulcan tried to use a psychic weapon to murder people and the mental decline of Sarek which was mostly confined to a dark room that could have been anywhere... Nothing about any of that that implies perfection in any way and time and again it was illustrating that pure logic is not sufficient or that logic can be twisted in vicious ways.

Seriously have you even watched anything that wasn't Enterprise or Voyager? Because your perspective makes absolutely no sense unless you've not actually watched anything beyond that.

>>52184154

I suggest looking up Jolene Blalock's criticisms of ENT and the direction the writing took. Frankly, I've become disinterested with your overly generous estimation of the writers and producers intentions.

What they did with the Vulcans was either an unintentional (and therefore incompetent) character assassination, or it was a deliberate hack job.

>http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Jolene_Blalock
>https://www.trektoday.com/news/221104_01.shtml

Unfortunately the second link's link to the original interview transcript has been eaten by the vagaries of internet hosting, and the way back machine doesn't have it.

Either way, I'm not going to waste my time appeasing some random person on a Vietnamese napalm fashion site.

>>52184493
It was intentional, but I doubt the intent was character assassination. Given that they still showed perfectly acceptable and reasonable Vulcans and included one as part of the main cast from literally the first episode, and given that the intent was always to build up to the Earth-Romulan War (which would inevitably include the Vulcans in a major way), I find it more than reasonable to accept the idea that the intent was always to foreshadow something being wrong with the Vulcans that would need to be fixed later.

>>52184410
Actually I haven't watched most of DS9 or VOY. The only Trek series I've seen through completion are TOS, TNG, and ENT. And every movie, of course, with VI being my favorite...ironically for related reasons to this discussion. The intent of Nick Meyer when writing Trek VI was to make Klingons more complicated; the intent was to make them less Mongolian knockoffs and move them to...I think the specific phrase was "Prussian drawing rooms".

Not as much of that as would be preferred made that into VI as was originally written, unfortunately, but VI by itself did add a substantial degree of complexity and depth to the Klingon race that previous movies and episodes had been unable to.

Which is why I like the Vulcan's portrayal in Enterprise. Their culture comes across as far less monolithic.

>>52184660

The person who made it seem like it was always intended was Manny Coto.

>https://www.trektoday.com/news/160605_02.shtml

And that's my last contribution to this discussion. I have things to do tomorrow, and if I don't sleep now, they'll suck worse than they already do.

>>52176303
>Hell, even Spock resorted to torture because it was the only repugnant option left.

Actually, the script and novelization made it more clear that that wasn't torture, it was a morality play; he didn't force it, he asked nicely.

>>52183751
>You're giving too much credit to the fucksticks who gave us three days to Qo'noS at warp 5.

Hey, be fair- it was four days.

Which means Qo'noS is almost a third of the way to Alpha Centauri!

And I guess the Rigel System is... somewhere in the Oort Cloud?

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>>52184660
>VI being my favorite

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>>52185009
I should qualify that I acknowledge II as being the "best" Star Trek movie, but that's different from being my favorite.

Also I include Galaxy Quest in my personal ranking, since as far as I'm concerned the 2013 Last Vegas Trek Convention made it an official Star Trek movie when it was ranked as the 7th best of all time (out of the 13 (inclusive) that had at that point been released). Though my personal ranking for it is 5.

Personal ranking, if you're curious.

1th. Star Trek VI: The One With the Klingon that Quotes Shakespeare
2th. Star Trek II: The Wrath of KHAAAAAAN!!!
3th. Star Trek IV: The One With the Whales
4th. Star Trek XIV: Classical Music
5th. Star Trek X: Galaxy Quest
6th. Star Trek VIII: The One with the Borg
7th. Star Trek III: The Good Bad One
8th. Star Trek XII: The One That Rebooted the Franchise
9th. Star Trek VII: The One With both Captains
10th. Star Trek V: Wherein God Needs a Starship
11th. Star Trek XI: The One That Killed the Franchise
12th. Star Trek: the Slow Motion Picture
13th. Star Trek XIII: The Wrath of Khan II: Electric Boogaloo
14th. Star Trek IX: Space Luddites

Insurrection is ranked lowest because it commits the ultimate sin, even worse than being bad - it's boring. It's just...just boring. Also Star Trek Into Darkness' opening scene (on Planet Nibiru, with the "cold fusion" bomb) is actually fantastic and would, by itself, be ranked 3rd, but sadly it's attached to an otherwise awful movie.

>>52185223
Into Darkness is good riiiiiight up until Crumpledick Bandersnatch calls himself Khan. At that point it became a terrible retread of WoK with lots of punching.

>>52185450
It's also a good name for a Konosuba doujin.

>>52185223
Where would you place Star Wreck: In the pirkinning?

>>52186230
Not him, and I haven't watched most of the ST movies recently, but I'd put it somewhere around 10th. It's amusing for the gimmick factor, and a few aspects were actually rather well done, but it's not all that great overall.

>>52185450
The music was pretty good. That's about the best thing I can say about it.

>>52185223
My own rankings.

1st The Undiscovered Country: A perfect conclusion to the Original Series and the entire era. The right mix of action and introspection.
2nd Wrath of Khan: The classic. Excellent visual and audio (notice the change in music and the low angle shots as Kirk rushes to Engineering.) that's some quality film making. The characters are themselves and the story is engaging.
3rd The Voyage Home: I fucking hate time travel stories. It's always the same thing. "What is this dollar bill of which you speak?" *hilarious misunderstanding ensues* but I do quite like this film. Perhaps because the actual story has less to do with saving Wales and more with the crew trying to reach Spock.
4th First Contact: the First 15 minutes are just amazing. Great music with decent action. The rest of the film is decent, but I really like the Picard revenge arc and the deflector array scene. Not a particularly TNG film, but well excecuted and grandiose.
5th Beyond: the only one of the Kelvinverse Films that feels like Star Trek. Adventurous. A tad silly, and not fixated on Kirk like the last 2 times.
6th Generations: A couple of good scenes. A couple of alright scenes. The Nexus was dumb. Having the Enterprise get popped by a B'rel was just painful.

Here ends the films I outright enjoyed.

7th The Motion Picture: Pretty shots of the Connie 2.0. A few interesting ideas. Mostly just boring though.
8th Kelvinverse 1: Nice music. Decent opening and a relatively simple story. It just feels rushed. I don't think we needed the entire crew to go from cadets to full officers in 1 film.

>>52188138
9th The Search For Spock: I'm going to say one thing. Spock should have stayed dead. I get why they brought him back. But it lessens the impact of his sacrifice in WoK, which was one of my favourite moments in Trek.
10th Nemesis: A few good ship battles. The introduction of the Mogai. All together a clumsy, vaguely incoherent end to the TNG story.
11th Into Darkness: You know, this film had a bunch of great set pieces, framed with good music. It's a shame that none of them fit together into anything like a coherent plot. And let's be honest. We didn't need Khan, a reverse of Spock's sacrifice or the USS bottle opener.
12th The Final Frontier: a title that holds the dubious distinction of being the worst TOS film and Worst Iron Maiden Album. Didn't like the story. Didn't like God. Could have been a decent film if it was all a Klingon plot to kill Kirk and Co.
13th Insurrection: Fuck the Baku. Fuck the Son'a. Fuck this Film. The only saving grace is Riker's tactics during the chase. Although, post Generations, Riker should really have his own ship, similar to how Sulu got his own command in TUD.

>>52188148
Honourable Mentions.

Galaxy Quest: An Excellent film. More of an introspective look at the genre than anything else.

Best of Both Worlds: I have always maintained that a good Trek film should feel like a Good 2-parter. Here we have a perfect example of an arc that would have made a good film.

DS9, "The Circle" arc. I was sorely tempted to chooses one of the other DS9 arcs, but I think they're all to involved to make films out of. By comparison, the opening of S2 would make for a good film, allowing every member of the cast to have an impact on the story.

Axanar: oooooh I'm a spicy boi

>>52184493
Could you stop with the whole [East Asian Country] + [Product or craft that requires careful fabrication] site thing? It's amusing once in a while, but using it as your de facto tag-out of arguments rather than just agreeing to disagree is getting a little old. Especially seeing as it seems that you're trying to distance yourself from having taken the argument seriously after writing numerous, lengthy posts in response to your detractors.

TL:DR it's okay to admit stalemate rather than retreating into facetious arguments about how you didn't even care to begin with.

How would VI have gone/been received if they had stuck with the original plan of Saavik being the traitor and not Lt. D'onut Steel?

On one hand, I can see it being one hell of a gutpunch, and it would have ratcheted up the tension during the interrogation, but on the other hand I cannot think of any valid reason for her to aid and abet the conspiracy (except maybe out of revenge for David, but that's thin).

>>52189076
Throw a reverse Mirror-Spock(which I guess would just be Spock).

Have her follow a Logical path towards the notion that peace with the Klingons will be fleeting and they will eventually exploit the Federation's good will and destroy it (a la Yesterday's Enterprise timeline).

Then Spock can throw back a line about "applying the human factor" seeing as TOS always had such a stiffy for humans being amazing. Which would more or less line up with the prime timeline.

>>52188148
The Final Frontier, at least, does get a huge boost because of the fantastic opening and closing scenes of Kirk, Spock, and McCoy camping, which are great moments for all three characters.

I choose to believe that everything in between was a fever dream of Kirk's induced by eating bad beans.

>>52189076
>but on the other hand I cannot think of any valid reason for her to aid and abet the conspiracy

Presumably, if it had been Saavik, there would have been a few scenes to expand upon this. At the very least I know the plan was to make her half-Romulan.

Also, what >>52189236 said. Which, amusingly, would ultimately turn out to be true. Permanent peace with the Klingon Empire is impossible.

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>>52181129
one of the Oddyssey's variants has a circular saucer

>>52190436
That looks so much better than the standard.

>>52190557
I personally prefer the arrowhead saucers for my tac-heavy ships, but I appreciate that they made variants and swappable parts to appeal to different tastes

>>52190753
Is there an in-setting reason why the arrowhead design doesn't appear much until the 2370s. I know that the NX project spawned the NX-Delta but after that it seems to be saucers all the way

>>52191485
i'm guessing more forward arc weaponry?
something to do with faster speeds and warp equivalent of aerodynamics?
more of them classed as atmosphere capable?
ramming becoming more fashionable?

no idea

>>52188138

>5th Beyond: the only one of the Kelvinverse Films that feels like Star Trek. Adventurous. A tad silly, and not fixated on Kirk like the last 2 times.

Yeah, as much as people laughed at 'Classical music?' I honestly found it a good example of what the movie was doing right. It was telling a big story with a personal theme for the characters rather than just 'Kill the baddie'...but it wasn't afraid to have some fun with it's own nature. Star Trek is a series that can laugh at it's own cheesy nature at times and celebrate it.

>>52191485

It might have something to do with them redesigning their ships to not have as much of an environmental impact (as seen in that one TNG episode) when traveling at high warp speeds.

Of course, warp works by putting the ship in a bubble so the shape of the ship in the bubble shouldn't really have an effect on it; that being said, Star Trek 'science' is wonky.

>>52188739

I'll think about it, but after so many years here, I'm pretty negative as a whole about 4chan in general. I will say that /stg/s normal level of discourse is a cut above though.

>>52189236

It's not about having a hard on for humans. It's about an appeal to our better nature, and the optimistic belief that humans can rise about our innate savagery to be better people. A call to action, if you will.

Compare and contrast Kirk's approach to the Prime Direction from "For The World Is Hollow and I Have Touched the Sky" vs. "Pen Pals".

Kirk basically says "Hang the Prime Directive. Helping these people is the more humane option." Picard says we won't help, and then changes his mind when he hears the girl Data's been talking to on the radio.

>>52185223

Star Trek VI is also my favorite. Best sendoff the series could have hoped for.

>>52184826

That's not the tone in the film. It's wonderful and lovely that they made it less traumatic in the script and in the novelization, but the film clearly has a different idea of how that went down.

>>52191576
Plus, let's be honest with ourselves, if the Original Series had possessed the budget to have a bad guy's plan defeated by a Beatle's or Elvis song, it totally would have done it.

>A LITTLE LESS CONVERSATION, A LITTLE MORE ACTION PLEASE
>ALL THIS AGGRAVATION AIN'T SATISFACTIONIN' ME
"Is this classical music?"
>A LITTLE MORE BITE AND A LITTLE LESS BARK
>A LITTLE MORE FIGHT AND A LITTLE LESS SPARK
"Yes, Doctor, I believe it is."
>CLOSE YOUR MOUTH AND OPEN UP YOUR HEART AND BABY SATISFY ME
>SATISFY ME BABY

>>52191576
That line made me nerd rage so much.

The visual where they're using the music against the fleet was solid fucking gold though, and the movie felt like more than a series of CG battles stapled together by one-liners like some did (fucking Nemesis, which I saw in theaters because I am a fool).

>>52191647
>Picard says we won't help, and then changes his mind when he hears the girl Data's been talking to on the radio.

To say nothing of Picard's utterly reprehensible actions in the beginning of "Homeward".

I don't get why Picard gets so easily forgiven by the fandom for that, yet Archer is crucified for something in "Dear Doctor" that is, by orders of magnitude, not remotely as bad.

Also, Alexander Rozhenko is the hero the Federation needs but doesn't deserve.

>>52191735
>That line made me nerd rage so much.

Why? To Kirk and McCoy and so on, the Beastie Boys would be more than 250 years ago. That's actually longer than, say, the distance between US and Tchaikovsky or Wagner.

That sounds pretty classical to me.

>>52191748
>"Homeward"

Because people quite simply forget that episode exists. It was in season 7 and the episode was so entirely dull with the whole holodeck going wrong again thing that the premise was not even memorable, plus it was preceded by The Pegasus which was actually good and followed by Dr. Crusher Fucks A Space Ghost which is right up there with Up The Long Ladder in terms of fucking awful.

Dear Doctor had the disadvantage of being a fairly interesting episode of an otherwise crap show, fucked over by the ending. It was not solidly boring throughout, which Homeward was.

>>52191812

I'd say it probably has something to do with Classical being a genre, rather than simply "old". I can only imagine what Trek thinks of Screamo.

>>52191881
>Because people quite simply forget that episode exists.

Shame, I actually, aside from Picard, otherwise like it. Had the premise changed just a bit so that by the time Enterprise got there the atmosphere had ALREADY failed, with the Boraalans largely dying except those Rozhenko had herded into a cave that he kept livable thanks to forcefield technobabble, it would have been far more tolerable.

>with the whole holodeck going wrong again

In fairness, it at least goes wrong differently from normal, in that the "safeties" are still on and working fine and the only issue is that the people inside have no concept of holograms. If the 'deck fails no one will die or anything dumb like that, it's just that the illusion will be ruined. It's a BELIEVABLE holodeck problem that doesn't leave me wondering why Starfleet would install these kinds of death-traps on their ships.

>>52191676

And it would have been amazing.

>>52191940
"Classical" wasn't called such in its own time, you realize. Genres presumably shift over time, of which 250+ years is a lot from a human perspective.

It wouldn't surprise me if in Kirk's time, the vagaries of "Metal", "Pop Rock", "Oldies", "Screamo", "Grunge", and so on, just all get grouped together into a single "classical" grouping, with only fucking nerds (like Tom Paris, probably) bothering to distinguish the different types of classical music.

What we term "classical" today would probably have a different term, too. "Orchestral", perhaps.

>>52191955

I have to admit that I had to look the episode up and was writing a reply, before erasing it in favor of letting >>52191881 stand, since he's more or less right.

Even so, Picard once again trots out the Prime Directive and how great it is, and how letting people die is a shame and all, shucks, but you can't alter their culture. Saving them is just the last excuse of fools and unbelievers in the Prime Directive, and if you stray from the path you'll be stuck watching reruns of Up the Long Ladder.

>>52192004

I can't say I know much about music, so I'll have to take your word for it.

>>52192065
>Up the Long Ladder

I forget which one that is...

>The Irish and the Clones

Speaking as the child of two native-born Irish folk, and as a person who went to Kindergarten in Ireland, spent the entire summer of 2006 there, and who visits there at least once a year...

...I love that episode's depiction of the Irish, and so does every Irish person I've ever met, who's reaction basically boils down to "Ah yes, boyo, that'd be a pretty good take on what it's like here." Up to and including when they try and set up a poitín still.

We are not so thin-skinned that we can't laugh at our own stereotypes.

The cloning bit I can take or leave, but that fate doesn't sound so bad.

Now if you had said "Code of Honor" or "Angel One", on the other hand...

>>52192192

>Code of Honor

Uggh. Alright. Consider it changed.

>>52192192
I'm pretty sure the name of the planet they settled on translates from Gealige to mean Revelation. Other than that they're pretty much exactly what people from the West, exspecially Limerick are like, except dressed like 18th century farmers and itinerants.

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Holy shit I just realised Worf is basically a weeb. I never noticed until now.

>>52192586
I think Dax is more of the Weeb. At least Worf is obsessed with his own culture. She's the one fawning over shit that basically means nothing to anybody but Klingons. Playing with their weapons and even dressing up like them.

So obviously she bagged herself a Klingon husbando. But not a normal Klingon, they're all racists and sexists. Instead she went and got herself a federationised Klingon that can eat with cutlery and everything. If there was a 24th century equivalent of a body pillow, she'd have one with Khaless on it.

>>52192672
We need to get some drawfriends on that.

So if modern Vulcans are what happens when Vulcans press down their emotions, and Romulans are what happens when Vulcans turn their emotions towards power, what happens when Vulcans turn their emotions towards memes?

>>52192824
Darmok and Jalad at Tanagra

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>>52192824
They find "God"

>>52192882
Holy shit.

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>>52192882

>>52191676
This, holy shit so much of this. I actually had a relative soft spot for the Kelvinverse films in that they finally broke from the "Star Trek is SRS BSNSS!!1!eleven!!!" pattern brought about by the TNG films (as well as the post-TNG series, to some extent) - and the Beastie Boys scene is probably the biggest outburst of overt comedy in Kelvintrek that isn't just "haha bones is blunt, kirk is a fuccboi, scotty improvises angrily, just like the memes!"

>>52192484
>Other than that they're pretty much exactly what people from the West, exspecially Limerick are like, except dressed like 18th century farmers and itinerants.

Which, in fairness, is because they were expressly space Luddites. As in, that's not an insult, they were actually trying to live a simple life as free of high technology as possible. So that's not a slight against the Irish.

Also it's rather noteworthy that they don't seem to particularly mind or look down on people who DO use high technology, and were perfectly happy to be saved by it when the Enterprise-D came rolling up to their system. They had their ways, and they liked their ways, but they weren't attached to their ways to the point of cultural suicide. There was a bit of culture clash with the crew of the Enterprise, but nothing major.

Basically they were probably the best, most honest depiction of Space Luddites in any sci-fi series ever.

>>52192883
Bad baked bean fever dream. I'm just sayin'. Oh, except maybe the bit in the lounge too, the "I want my pain, I need it" scene. That's great cinema as well.

Again, bad as Trek V is, it at the least is never BORING, which I why I rate Insurrection as worse.

>>52193133
It never ceases to amaze me that Beyond took the worst part of the trailer and made it the best part of the movie. Well, one of the best.

Being the Enterprise fanboy that I am, the best part of the movie would be name-dropping and acknowledging the Xindi, something I never in a million years ever expected to happen.

>>52193273
>>52192484
>>52192192
The funniest part was the writer for the episode originally had no specific ethnicity in mind, but the producer, who was Irish, decided to make them Irish.

>>52193430
Aye, sure write what you know, as they say.

>>52193430
Yup. Like I said - we are not a thin-skinned people.

>>52192824
Something like /pol/, but with less hypocrisy and insecurity.

>>52192004
>only fucking nerds (like Tom Paris, probably)
Kek'd. But, considering it's what he's listening to in his little joyride at the beginning of '09, does that make Kirk one, too?

>>52193273
>name-dropping and acknowledging the Xindi
Huh, never noticed that. Mitigates my buttblasting about how the Franklin blatantly ignored ENT's "nasa but gud" aesthetics but not much, that shit was awful..

>>52193980
it's a shame seeing as there was a wealth of designs they cold have used for the Franklin. The Neptune class, the NV, the Sarajevo or even just another NX, which probably would have made more sense, given the registry number.

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What is the cosiest ship in ST? My vote for Danube Runabouts.

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>>52195337

I'm imclined to agree. It's configurable-as-fuck so you could turn it into your own personal warp-capable neetbox.

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>>52195734

Various pre-existing Starfleet configurations.

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>>52195758

And a number of blank floorplans if anyone is feeling creative.

>>52195337
>>52195734
>>52195758
All feels a bit too dry, a bit too starfleet-y - I'd take the Flyer over a Runabout any day although I wouldn't pick LCARS over physical flight controls if you paid me.

>>52195758
It's a shame we never saw a runabout going through a module change. Or hell, even just the rear area in DS9. I kinda imagine it to be like Thunderbird 2 changing pods but with changing the school trip to Bajor module out for gotta go poke a gamma quadrant planet module.

>>52191748
>I don't get why Picard gets so easily forgiven by the fandom for that, yet Archer is crucified for something in "Dear Doctor" that is, by orders of magnitude, not remotely as bad.
Because fans like TNG and Picard, while they don't like Archer and ENT.

>>52196567

>two Starfleet officers piloting a Danube during the Nth Battle of Chin'toka
>"Firing torpedoes."
>"That's twelve so far."
>"You know, come to think of it, I don't recall them actually switching out the school children field trip module for the torpedo module when we checked in at DS9."
>"Then what the hell have we been firing?"

>>52193934
>Kek'd. But, considering it's what he's listening to in his little joyride at the beginning of '09, does that make Kirk one, too?
He is a nerd. You don't become the youngest starship Captain in history by being a normie. In TOS his younger self was even described as serious and studious, and he was bullied by some Chad, too. Growing up without a dad turned him into the idiot he was in JJTrek.

>>52196848
he even had a brother with a porno mustache that was killed by fried eggs.

>>52196694
>tfw I like Archer more than Picard

>>52196843
>Antimatter ordnance? No, sir, we were just dropping humanitarian aid packages for those poor starving Cardassian children!

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>>52195337
Well this ones certainly cosy

>>52197024
Archer seems like he'd be better as a pure explorer. Whereas Picard seems much better suited to diplomacy.

>>52198394
delet this

>>52197024
But why though?

>>52198394
Fucking thing can even make warp on it's own steam.

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>>52199824
Tech manual (drawing from the series bible and creators so basically word of god in this case) says no.Also pretty sure it was never seen doing so.

Why they had three practically identical models of shuttlepod though I have no idea, maybe some had to be remodelled very slightly to cover damage?
I mean they were created to have a much, much cheaper shuttle prop to use than the massive brick that was the first shuttle type made for TNG. Tweaking seems kinda odd.

>>52201659
Apologies, that should have read *can't.

>>52195337
They're perfect for RPGs too since their crew is party sized and there's no one guy in the big chair, and they need to return to starbase, planet, or xbox huge starship to resupply fairly often so you get the adventurers returning to town dynamic.
>>52195758
>Runabouts with full size torpedoes.
Have engineering tune up the impulse engines a bit and you've got one hell of a PT boat, especially with the Ludicrous Dakka options like quantum, tricobalt, and transphasic.
>dormitory module
This almost has to be a small unit covert deployment troop carrier. Every other use for the module is better served by a larger ship.

>>52175807
>The Cardassians were originally meant as once off or minor recurring race, but they ended up getting more heavily involved because the writers decided to play up the Bajoran occupation as a big deal.
Fewer Bajorans died during the occupation than should have died to natural causes.

>>52203878
That's just shitty writing. Given how nearly every Bajoran we meet has either been to a Bajoran "labour" camp or had numerous friends and family executed, it seems impossible that the number should be so low. Inless there's a massive isolationist group on Bajor that never talks with the Feds and the Cardassians left alone for no particular reason.

I've always assumed that Bajor has a number of separate nation states, like United Earth. So Kira could just be referring to the losses in Dakhur. It's a stretch, I know.

I also figure most of the nasty shit that happened during the occupation happened in the latter 2 decades, after the Cardassians gave up on integrating the Bajorans.

TL;DR American tv writers are notoriously inconsistent when it comes to using numbers to increase drama.

>>52203992
Make that TV writers in general. It's not a American-only problem. It's just highly visible due to the all-pervasiveness of American media.

>>52203878
>This almost has to be a small unit covert deployment troop carrier. Every other use for the module is better served by a larger ship.

Could also be a crew transport. Like Picard sends a message along the lines of "We've expended our supply of plucky, but ill-fated, ensigns. We now have a number of openings in security and ops." And Starfleet sends out one of those with 8 poor bastards, plucked straight from the Miranda roster.

>>52204118
So it's Federations long range skyranger, sending the poor rookies to die.

>>52193273
Do you know where they mentioned the Xindi? I don't recall noticing it.

I mainly noticed the Franklin being listed as class "Ship Class" or something like that on it's metal plate thing on the bridge (IDK what the proper term is for those) and it being the NX some-number-greater-than-1 and yet it was slower than the Enterprise NX-01.

>>52204167
Captain whoseyfucker (Idris Elba) has a bit of a monologue while him and Kirk are facing off and he uses mentions the Romulan War and the Xindi as a touchstone for the horrors his generation faced.

>>52204160
That and less death-sentence-y assignments. Serving on starbases and the like.

Are all Klingons members of a house? Or is that a sort aristocratic class?

>>52204696
Houses are sort of like Surnames, I think. Everyone has one, but only a few are of any worth.

>>52205916
Wait did Worf ever mention that he took the surname of his adopted family at any point in the series? Because it's kind of strange that I recall that his son Alexander did at one point.

>>52205985
Worf seemed to stick with "Son of Mogh" but Alexander went with Rojenko after Worf dumped him back on Earth.

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>STO getting updated
>Nerfs, nerfs everywhere
>Beam fire at will nerfed (Instead of accuracy boost and damage boost you now get accuracy reduction and damage reduction)
>Tons of other space skills nerfed
>Even plasmonic leech was nerfed

Kharak is burning.

>>52206878
This fills me with unending rage. My primary build is fucked.

>>52207181
So is mine.
They also nerfed the Iconian set.

>>52207225
Hell, this was a meta nerf in general.
Absolutely everything folks have been using to gain DPS has been nerfed.

We delta rising 2.0 now!
Well hopefully it wont be as bad as then, then they buffed the enemies health like mad, now they haven't buffed anything.

>>52204167 >>52204273
Balthazar Eddington, was his name.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6SaKGbrSPjE

Skip to 7:20 for the monologue. I like it, a lot.

>We lost ourselves but we GAINED A PURPOSE! A means to go back to the struggle that made humanity strong. [...] I FOUGHT FOR HUMANITY! LOST MILLIONS TO THE XINDI AND ROMULAN WARS! AND FOR WHAT?! FOR THE FEDERATION TO SIT ME IN A CAPTAIN'S CHAIR, AND BREAK BREAD WITH THE ENEMY!

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>>52204118
>Could also be a crew transport.

This
It's a space bus/train. Sometimes it's just travelling for a few hours so sitting room only, sometimes it's going more than a day or two so needs sleeping compartments.

Star fleet has a lot of low-priority personnel transfers to sort out on a constant basis, it's pretty much the primary function of the Runabout to facilitate that without needing to dedicate something larger for only a handful of people.

>>52207677
Hell even senior line officers are expected to use shuttles/runabouts for transit. You have to be flag officer before they let you use an honest to god starship for travel.

>>52207649
Like Maxwell but more on the nose

>>52208856
Well, it isn't TNG so the villain has to be more obviously villainous and bastardly rather than just a bit misguided and failing to follow procedure, since the point with that episode was that Maxwell was right, but dealing with it bad and wrong. Where as Balthazar Eddington is just a bitter angry asshole.

>>52209152
More like Edison maybe? His justifications always seemed fairly nebulous.

>>52206878
>>52207181
>>52207225
>>52207253
These beamboater tears, they taste delicious.

>>52211046
Guess it's time to go full torpedo/cannon gunboat

>>52211399
I have a 100% torpedo boat, shits amazing.

>>52170651
yeah but then Daniels fixes it so they actually jumped in a window and right back to their desk

>>52172782
>welcome to your new posting aboard this handy-dandy timeship, agent

>>52180961
Pretty much all the ones with Warp-drives do.

>>52171062
Best End.

>>52180817
you know why they changed BSG away from logistical problems?

same reason Voyager stopped dropping the "limited supplies" lines in every now and then

it's magical space fiction, it doesn't need that

>a decade later

...doing all-digital fx

Voyager began at a time when that was impractically expensive and so used a combination of models, practical effects (cloud tanks and firecrackers) and cgi (phasers), assembling them into a whole using software to merge the various layers

by the later seasons in common with DS9 and the later movies, they switched over to all-cgi, like your BSG in many respects but with far fewer 'hero' ships and less on screen (due to not having to render entire fleets), meaning they could spend more time/money on getting their hero ships to look right, whereas BSG only even tried with the big carriers

in 1995 you couldn't have even tried a BSG-approach to effects - it wouldn't have been something you could afford even on a big-budget show, but BSG came at a time when Star Trek had been doing HD-all-digital for years, so if you're going to compare it to something it should be Enterprise, not Voyager, and Enterprise actually did do rolling week-to-week damage because, unlike early Voyager when it might have been more relevant, there was no vast financial or time penalty to modifying a 4-foot ship model for a 20-second shot that could just as easily recycle the shot you did a few episodes earlier but with a different background

>>52211810

>magical space fiction

So, we should just accept an overall lower quality of storytelling because the central premise of the show involves magical space vehicles that could never work in real life?

>>52211046
>>52211399
>>52211627
Drains and torps here - given that my beams barely make up enough of my DPS to earn participation trophies, I'm savouring the schadenfreude too.

>>52211810
Anyone who uses the word "need" with regard to any form of entertainment is completely retarded. There is no such thing as whether a show "needs" something or not, it's a matter of what makes for an interesting show.

>>52212146
>So, we should just accept an overall lower quality of storytelling by ignoring the fact that the central premise of the show makes a big point about them being far from backup - and, by extension, resupply.
ftfy

Relative newfag here - looking to get the console and torp from either the Lukari or Iconian sets (the latter looks nicer, but also more difficult to get the marks for). Any advice?
>inb4 "ask on plebbit"

>>52212244
Wait until the nerfs finish and people figure out what the new meta is.

>>52212193

Agreed, but I'd still like to see the anon in question argue that we should just accept poor storytelling on the basis that there's magic, or space magic, and that we shouldn't have tension, drama, or conflict, and if there happens to be some, that it should all be wrapped up at the end of 40 minutes with a pat magical or space magical answer.

>>52212417
Not him, but there are only so many "we're running low on supplies" stories that you can do before it starts getting real old. Like it did on VOY. And it didn't make sense there, since they could trade and stuff, unlike on BSG (where it was only a part of the drama, not the major part of it). It wasn't something the story for VOY needed, not when it has a ton of other things to work with, even just mostly sticking to the TNG formula like it did.
Though, since the show did bring it up, it should have been resolved on-screen, not just ignored once it became an inconvenient plot line.

>>52212417
>on VOY
>there are only so many "[x]" stories that you can do before it starts getting real old
You'd think so. You'd really fuckin' think so. But I'd still rather have a dozen of those over the sheer amount of MOTW bullshittery

>>52213492

>it would get old

I get that it would get old, especially in the hands of a writer of rather mediocre skill. But it could have been handled better, and yes, as you said, resolved on-screen rather than ignored.

>trade for stuff

I'd agree with you on that point if it weren't for the fact that VOY makes an enormous point that they can't trade Federation technology because of the Prime Directive.

So, if they're going to trade with someone that the Prime Directive says is okay, then we'd best see it on the show. Which we don't, so that's why the torpedo counter video exists.

I'd be fine with VOY if it was just TNG 2.0, but they abandoned and jettisoned the premise and all that went with it aside from "Hey! Remember that?" episodes that were either one-offs, or were alternate universe/soft reset/one offs.

>Maquis crew integration

I know you didn't bring it up, but this is one of the other things that VOY just ignored. So, what we have is:

>Far from home, no resupply
>>jettisoned completely, save for a two parter alternate universe/soft reset
>Maquis crew needs to integrate, threat of mutiny
>>brought up only in one-off episodes or alternate universes
>Can't trade because of the Prime Directive
>>ignored when convenient/written around rather than addressed

Like I said, VOY being TNG 2.0 would have been fine without them setting all this stuff up and then saying "Nah, fuck it. Too much work."

>>52205985
He did, kind of. He occasionally said he was 'Worf, Son of Mogh, of the House of Martok.'

>>52214374
>Can't trade because of the Prime Directive
But they trade stuff all the time. That's not what the PD is all about. It is:
>don't interfere in the affairs of other cultures
That's it. This of course includes "revealing ourselves to primitives," because that naturally would severely interfere with their culture. The only tech they have said they won't give is warp drive itself, which goes along with the "primitive culture" thing.
They also don't generally trade weapons, because weapons are naughty things that only naughty people ask for (plz ignore the phasers velcro'd to our pj's).

>>52214710

And replicators. That was a huge sticking point in Seasons 1-2 of VOY.

And there's the mental gymnastics that Janeway uses to apply the Prime Directive to situations where it doesn't apply, which she does regularly.

>weapons

Yeah. Scorpion says hi.

Finally getting around to watching the movies and
my god, who designed the uniforms in The Motion(less) picture?

And who made them right again for Khan?

>>52217489

Same guy, apparently. Robert Fletcher.

>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Trek_uniforms#Star_Trek_II_through_Star_Trek_VI_and_Star_Trek:_Generations
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Fletcher_(costume_designer)

>>52217489
Robert Fletcher and Robert Fletcher.

>>52217615
>>52217632

Thanks guys. I guess Robert Fletcher has off days too.

>>52217662
He can only do what the chiefs tell him to. They got what they wanted in both cases.

>>52217662

Likely it's because he did what Gene told him to do. And then we all got bloody luck when Nicholas Meyer saved Trek as a movie franchise.

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"For the first time in my life...I was happy."

What a punch in the gut.

>>52218819
Vulcans do not feel punches to the gut, Anon.

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>>52218819
Better a punch in the gut than the kick in the dick this Man from U.N.C.L.E / Dr. Who wannabe was.

>>52217489
I like to think that the motion picture just happened on Starfleet's laundry day.

>>52221569
I'd buy it. It explains all the underoos and space-leisure suits.

>>52211046
I hope you're not laughing too hard if you run an exotic boat. All the big black holes are getting nerfed.

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should i bother finishing voyager

i think im on like season 6 and i just got tired of it

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>>52222031
You should always finish what you start friendo. If not for fun at least for education purposes

>>52222053
i guess

i started watching the oj simpson miniseries and it pushed all thoughts of voyager out of my mind

>>52222031
There's actually a few good episodes ahead of you. I promise at least some of them are worth it.

>>52222031
You haven't even reached equinox, keep going

>>52222031

If you're that far down the rabbit hole, you may as well finish - but take that sentiment with a heavy dose of "you don't have to do anything you don't want to do". People have this strange idea that you have to finish media to get a fair appraisal of it, and frankly, I think they're wrong. If you're not having fun, or stopped having fun a while ago, and have no interest in how the series ends or where it goes before then... drop it. Do something else with your time.

Life's too short to waste on something bad.

>>52223246

I almost want to recommend Equinox, but Equinox is ultimately an example of what's wrong with VOY. It isn't about anything. Janeway just gets a punching bag so she can look better by comparison, and even that falls flat because we know that Janeway has not suffered the hell that Equinox has, because Equinox doesn't get the post-episode reset button Voyager does.

I mean, ultimately, it's just another "Janeway is right about the Prime Directive episode" with a side of "crew integration that goes nowhere".

That said, I still like Equinox. I just wish there was more to it than a peek at what VOY could have been, and a vehicle for the writers and producers to pat themselves on the back.

>>52220318
According to beta canon, this guy just endlessly fucked up and was accidentally behind every bad thing that happened up to WW3.

>>52222031
Keep watching. Neelix leaves.

>>52224236
That's actually kind of fantastic. He thinks he's Temporal James Bond but he's actually just shit.

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>>52224719
I must apologize for our temporal agent.
He is an idiot.
Ve hawe purposefully trained him vrong, as a joke.

>>52224926
Fucking temporal shenanigans.

>>52224558
Neelix doesn't really bother me.

>>52228691
I see Cryptic have achieved maximum HEUGness.

>>52229829

At this point, if they could make it 40k huge, they would would.

The only reason I'm still even playing the damn thing is sunk cost fallacy and it's one of the few ways I get to hang out with my brother-in-law who lives on the other side of the continent.

>>52231143
Well at least that latter comment makes sense.

>>52231506

Sunk cost fallacy will never make sense. Ever. People put resources into something that sucks or harms them, but they say to themselves "well, I've already gone this far...".

>>52231573
I was going more for the "spend time with close relative" part.

>>52231679

Fair enough. They bought a house, and then the housing market crashed, so they've basically been trapped on the east coast for the last half-decade. It sucks.

>>52231573
>Sunk cost fallacy will never make sense.
That's why it's a fallacy.

On feddie ships where do you like your warp nacelles? Above the saucer, under the saucer, or under everything.

>>52233091
Even number of nacelles (2, 4, either way). Above or the below the saucer doesn't matter to me, as long as they can "see" each other, "see" forward, and "see" backwards.

I.e., original Cochrane outrigger design rules (which the Phoenix itself doesn't quite meet, but hey, it was a first go).

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>>52233091

Above the saucer, or in parallel with it.

Alternatively, this: >>52233155

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>>52233091
Inside the saucer.

>>52233257
Gross.

>>52233091
Above the saucer for tough ships.
Between the saucer secondary hull for fast ships
Nacelles and saucer below the secondary hull for "pew pew" ships

Let's try this again, shall we?

>>52233257

>LEWD
>E
>W
>D

>>52217694
*saved Trek as a franchise

>>52221837
Oh?

>>52222031
Come on, anon. You finished the Seska episodes, you can get through this.

>>52229829
>this is maximum HEUGness
>he hasn't seen the iconian ships

>>52233377
Yup. Grav Well, all the temporal hazard drops, and even Tyken's Shared Cooldown are all dropping damage. And other effects. AND no longer effect torpedoes or mines.

>>52233486
Oh, and subspace vortex, too.

>>52233257
delet this now

>>52211046
>>52221837
And I also hope you don't like those nice rifts the Gravimetric Torpedo drops, 'cause they're getting the nerf bat, too.

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>>52234125
for what fucking purpose do they just want the shitty meta that was cannons and nothing but cannons for DPS now because fuck Science boats and fuck Beams we need fast paced cannons like real fighters in space.

>>52234388
>t. salty beamboater

>>52234459
actually its
t. Salty Science Nebula

>>52234388
I, for one, welcome our new dakka overlords.

My beamboat is getting stale as fuck, so I've been toying with a dakka NX Refit. It's not bad. And yes it can use Dual Heavy Cannons. I might get the defiant for the Quads.

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>>52235085
i hate cannons unless they are on a BoP but i really wish they would just fuck off with the nerfs science really didn't need the nerf it was on par with cannons, but ill admit beam boats where kinda the go to flavor at the moment and could of been toned back but not by the amount they are talking

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>>52234475
I know your pain. Drain/control build is basically useless now.

New Tread

>>52237351
>>52237351
>>52237351
>>52237351