/STG/ - Star Trek General

Did anything ever come of that All Hands Lost game?

>>52072297
Character generation rules for Star Trek Adventures playtest

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1g2ofDX0-7tgHojjk7sKcp7uVFSK3M52eVP45gKNJhgY/edit?usp=sharing

>>52072949
I have it on the back-burner. The nature of the beast requires a metric shit ton of writing. I try to sit down and work out a scenario or 2 but life/work/alcohol/binge-rewatching Star Trek gets in the way a fair bit. I'm hoping to have a play-testable version by early summer.

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What would life on one of these monstrosities even be like? It's basically a flying city.

>>52074549
High tech macross?

>>52074570

Hopefully with less J-Pop

>>52074587
What do you have against J-pop?
Cant handle the protoculture?

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>>52074549
It appears to be a flying pizza cutter.

It looks like it's only 1 or 2 decks wide on the saucer section so internal space is probably comparable to a Sovereign class.

This is a flying city.

>>52074606
Besides, it's not called Enterprise-J for nothing.

>>52074587
Of course not, they prefer to listen to Klingon Pop.

>>52074549
>>52074549
Just like a fairly low key cruise ship for years at a time.

Pretty shit if you don't want to spend all your time working and sleeping. Which is grand because they only employ workaholics who raise their kids in distraction free fishbowls to breed them as Starfleet obsessed workaholics too.

Sounds pretty good to me as long as the kids are smart enough to get back in Starfleet. That would be a pretty world ending rejection.

>>52074606

Yes
I too become angered and confused by the sight of people kissing

>>52074624

>Klingons in candy-colored, frilly dresses singing about blood and honor

God help us

>>52074631
>That would be a pretty world ending rejection.
It seems that in the UFP, Earth in particular, if parents are Starfleet then you have failed if you are not.

>>52074624
>>52074654
Oh jesus christ I looked that up and It's actually a thing.

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>>52074570
Wasn't that Voyager though?
>hero ship gets flung a bajillion miles away
>they have to fight their way home
>half the bridge crew is one dimensional waifu bait
>CO is a crazy person
>small craft pilots solve problems they really shouldn't be able to
>The Power Of Human Culture(tm) solves all sorts of ass pulls

>>52074631
[grumbles in sisko]

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We now have some stats on those 26th century ships and some more pics.
Ent-J looks downright hideous.

http://www.arcgames.com/en/games/star-trek-online/news/detail/10423633-26-century-dreadnoughts-stats%21

>>52074570 >>52074619 >>52074606
Aaaand this popped into my head. Thanks guys.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GvqXCK9tD7o

Here's a full mashup, if anyone wants it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3nfweteZck

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>>52075667
The baSro' may well be my new favorite Klingon ship, however.

Look at this thing. This thing is fucking adorable and yet still recognizably Klingon.

"Qapla'-nyaa~!"

>>52075667
>two hangar bays equipped with Cestus Frigates
TIL: 26th century frigates have precisely one (1) deck

>>52074615
>It looks like it's only 1 or 2 decks wide on the saucer section so internal space is probably comparable to a Sovereign class.

Don't they have 'bigger on the inside' technology? The interior of that thing is probably fucking huge.

I think the creators even said as much.

>>52075138
Less singing, at least.

>>52075810
Looks like it should be Romulan. Just paint it green.

>>52077304
A long neck, forward command module, and underslung wings are a hallmark of Klingon design going back to the D7.

>>52077541
But look at how disgustingly smooth it is.

>>52077606
Everything in the 26th century is disgustingly smooth. Apparently starship design is destined to move towards an ultimate smoothularity.

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>>52077681
Sneak peak at the Enterprise L

>>52077681
>>52077764
>The USS ÜberEnterprise (NCC-1701-∞) is a Mega-Federation exploration vessel launched in A.D. 12265, the ten thousand year anniversary of James T. Kirk's first mission as captain of the original USS Enterprise. The vessel is a spherical liquid-metal starship 250 km in diameter, which can separate into larger copies of the earlier starships named Enterprise for exploration purposes.

>The ÜberEnterprise is equipped with advanced warp engines capable of speeds of at least Warp 1000. It is also equipped with a blinkporter, which can transport the user at the speed of thought.

>>52077819
> Data, who has not left his quarters in five thousand years, has become something of a crazy hermit
Motherfuck, I forgot this was a thing.

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>>52077764
Super secret leak of Cryptics future Ent-L model.

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>>52077606 >>52077681

Again, the fucking D7, which is much smoother.

It's like you people don't even watch Star Trek...

>>52077819
>>52077866
Is this an actual thing?

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>>52077764
>>52077872
Makes me think that 'Flight of the Navigator' was a preview of what all super future ships would look like.

>>52078065
No. Yes. Sort-of. It's from an anthology of emphatically non-canon stories. It was officially published, but none of the stories have ever been considered as canon in any timeline.

The story, as I recall, involves Clone!Kirk and Clone!Picard both chewing out the Milky Way Galaxy at the end for having become complete assholes, which the Milky Way Galaxy is of course forced to admit that it has and change it ways because, well, it was subject to both a Kirk Speech AND a Picard Speech. And I do mean the entire Milky Way; by that point in the story all sapient life in the Milky Way has merged into gestalt consciousness.

It was weird, but fun.

>>52077938
The D7 has plenty of sharp corners, captain defensive. The D7000 is paper thin.

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>>52077541
>>52077938
That's not strictly speaking true. Look at her wings. Most Klingon ships have wings the sweep back, ending up further aft than they started. There are notable exceptions. The Nehg'var and BoP.

However the wing shape on the BaSro is much more akin to the Romulan style. More specifically, the raptor class and D'Deridex.

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>>52077938
K'tinga is superior tbqhwys

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>>52078548
Best design, all time reporting in.

>>52079343
I mean, I like D'Deridex, but she's not what I'd call the best design of all time

>>52079645
If it ain't hollow, don't even borrow.

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>>52079927
What does that even mean?

>>52077872
my sides have entered subspace

>>52077872
B-but anon, don't you know? We're too cool for nacelles in the future!

>>52078697
K'tinga IS D7.

>>52082923
Incorrect. The K'tinga is treated as a separate class. Specifically the successor to the D7.

http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/K't'inga_class

>>52083411
Anon, it's basically just a D7 with more polygons.

>>52083522
>polygons

You know they were physical models, right?

>>52083639
thatwasthejoke.png

>>52083522
The original designer stated that the round spot on the front of a D-7's command hull was the navigational deflector. This turned into a photon torpedo launcher in the movies. So there are some significant differences. Unfortunately Star Trek canon is leaky and so in the remastered version of ToS the spot is again a photon torpedo tube. So while originally there were significant differences between a D-7 and a K'tinga the difference is mainly appearance now.

>>52083896
>Deflector array turns into a weapon

This happened with the D'Deridex as well. I suppose we can be thankful that the Starfleet ships didn't end up with that mistake.

>>52083885
>but anon, I was only pretending to be retarded!

>>52083940
>I suppose we can be thankful that the Starfleet ships didn't end up with that mistake.
It almost did anyways thanks to the IMMA FIRIN MAH LAZOR tactic from TNG:Best of Both Worlds that got horribly overused in Voyager.

>>52078230
Oh, that's what you meant by smooth. I thought you were referring to the fact that the hull of the baSro' is relatively smooth and free of random jutting out portions.

I'm not against its more rounded shape given what I know about how FTL travel in Star Trek works. "Space is an ocean", basically; you want a ship that cuts through subspace easier.

>>52081793
Dont worry, those are retractable.

>>52078159
Those would probably be its shuttles. Though I think there's a bit too much external detail on it.

>>52086117
I think the point he was making was more that, for a Klingon ship, this new design shares a lot of design queues with 24th century Romulan designs.

Could be that it's a joint development of some sort.

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>>52090045
That's the way they explain the 29th century ships (bottom 2 ships).

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>>52090162
Correction, 31st century.

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20% lobi sale.
http://www.arcgames.com/en/games/star-trek-online/news/detail/10419633-20%25-lobi-sale%21

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>>52091541
And i just bought a 200 lobi suit for my captain few weeks ago.

>>52091789
Well duh, sales only happen after someone buys something they've been saving for.
The rest of us thank you for your sacrifice.

>>52083940
>This happened with the D'Deridex as well. I suppose we can be thankful that the Starfleet ships didn't end up with that mistake.

>TNG "Darmok"
> wherein the Enterprise fires a phaser beam out of the forward torpedo tube

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>>52091789
>And i just bought a 200 lobi suit for my captain few weeks ago
>>52091541
There is a sucker born every second as the Fenergi say.

>>52091541
>still 200 lobi away from NX Refit
Fuck. I'm so tempted to buy zen and just shit out R&D packs until I get enough.

>>52092407
Now is not the time to buy zen, time to buy it was until latest patch, now we wait till we can buy dilithium in bulk.

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I haven't been on in a few weeks, but I bring this. A screenshot of the Universe class dreadnought dwarfing all the things.

>>52092805

It's a big ship.

>>52093004
>Last digit 4

I give this (you) for you.

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>>52092805
Different anon here, just took some pictures from my corvette.

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>>52093420

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>>52093471

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>>52093488

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>>52093576
Also, say hello to my new ship.

>>52091789
and i got a vengeance. fuuuck

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>>52093625
Neat. Shitposting from my lizard dildo.

>>52093471
Congratulations. With the addition of but a single red stripe, you've managed to make an already ugly ship even uglier.

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>>52093645
It wasn't me, i swear.

Man, that's a lot of bottle openers.

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>>52093690
Welp, forgot pic.

>>52090176
How the literal fuck does the TE survive that long?

>>52091789
Anon who just dumped his dil into Zen before the market crashed from Phoenix boxes here, I feel your pain

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>>52094431
TE survives because their future counterparts came around, handed them some high tech and helped them nuke the Iconians both in their present and in their past (which caused Leeta to become an admiral thanks to her own tactical genius) and now we got Terrans in Prime universe badlands.

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>>52094478
Part 2 of Leetas final diary entry.
The things temporal agents haul to us...

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Fuck Huej ships are all right and well but who here craves the small and comfy? The sort of ship where the Captain can be on a first name basis with the entire crew.

Where maybe there isn't every luxury of a small city but is made up for with the comradery in adversity.

Pioneer Utility Cruiser is comfy. I would be willing to pay for T6 Pioneer with TOS interior.

Fuck the rest.

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>>52094601
I've always been a fan of ships that are not gigantic. Makes it more personal. And better for narrative because it's more conceivable that it can't do everything and needs cunning to work around problems.

>>52094601
What I love about the Pioneer is that itty bitty secondary hull that makes so much sense but never appeared elsewhere. It makes stuff like the Saladin better than having a dish jutting from the bottom of the saucer.

>>52094755
I'd like it more if it were set further back.

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>>52094601

In this pic? >>52092805

That's my Paladin (pretending to be its much cooler ancestor, the Ranger) next to the NX (lost against all the lights) hovering above the universe class.

Personally, the "itty-bitty" ships are actually quite large when you put them in human scale. It's just that Trek and by extension STO has gone the "bigger is better!" route for some reason.

Of them all, my favorite is probably the Daedalus.

>>52095500
>It's just that Trek and by extension STO has gone the "bigger is better!"

The series backed down from going ever larger for Star Fleet ships after the Galaxy class. Even going to the point that the Enterprise E was the first Enterprise that wasn't the same size or larger than it's predecessor of the same name. Which was good.

>>52095643

That is a good thing, certainly, but damn if ENT didn't double down on the "the future is fuckhueg!" deal with the J. The calendar or artbook or whatever that showed us the Odyssey class didn't help either.

While I'm not a fan of VOY, I did like that the Intrepid and Nova classes were comfortable sizes.

>>52095686
I can see why ENT did it, I mean making the Enterprise J the size of an original xbox was really just a visually convenient way to show that it's incredibly more advanced than other 'trek ships we've seen as well as fit it's purpose as an apparently intergalactic explorer that may well be required to be a generation/colony ship as well as a fully capable battle/exploration vessel. There's no way a ship like that is getting stuck being Star Fleet's diplomatic envoy bitch like the Enterprise D did.

Star Fleet building whales seems like a trend that really should not come back for a very long time after the Dominion war, I'd expect the Defiant to have a much stronger positive legacy in ship design than the Galaxy following those events.

War losses, a large Federation with a lot to protect, the difficulty in making un-specialised bleeding-edge of tech large ships like the problems the Constitution, Excelsior, possibly Ambassador and absolutely Galaxy had... All of it points to a logical course of developing smaller ships using their technology to make them very good at one thing with a decent amount of capability in other areas (Defiant, Akira, Intrepid, Nova and so on) or a generalist with a bloody great big replaceable equipment module for specialisation (Nebula).

>>52095977

Agreed, mostly. I just have nitpicks.

The Connie wasn't an all-purpose explorer. She was a warship built to fight the Klingons. The Excelsior was both intended to replace the Constitution, and was a testbed for a transwarp system that was a dead end.

The Galaxy though? She was definitely the "does everything, but excels at nothing" starship. The only reason she was excellent during her first decade was because she was ahead of her time.

With some refits and a reorganization of her purpose, the Galaxy would be a fine ship. According to the tech manual, she can produce antimatter on her own (something few if any starships can/could do), her interior sections are modular, and designed to be easily refitted to suit a particular mission, and she can transport a LOT more people than what we saw in the show if they just maximized persons by volume. She was, at the time, Starfleet's fastest starship too, so... the Galaxy isn't a lost cause, but the way we saw her in TNG wasn't utilizing her to her fullest potential.

But, for the amount of energy and materials necessary to build one (let alone crew one), you could probably build half a dozen Akiras.

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>>52096162
The Galaxy was designed both in-universe and out-of-universe for a TNG that was unlike the show we got. It was designed to be a multi-year exploration ship that could operate independently without having to go back to starbases for repair and resupply far longer than any other ship ever could. That's why it feels like a cruise liner inside and why there are families on board. Hell, even the bridge looked more like a lounge than an actual bridge in the early concept art.

It makes sense given the time frame. The Klingons had been pacified (and, in the early seasons, had outright joined the Federation before that was retconned), the Romulans were quiet until S1's finale, and there really just weren't any major threats to deal with, so the Federation figured they were fine just shoving out a bunch of massive deep-space exploration vessels. Then the Romulans woke up, the Borg happened, the Klingons got warlike again, the Cardassians got aggressive, the Dominion happened, and so on. Thus the ships were diversified both for in-universe and out-of-universe reasons as Starfleet need to get its stagnant ass back into gear.

Presumably the J was for the same reasons: the Federation had expanded to cover most of the galaxy, no major threats in the Milky Way, so they started churning out massive deep space exploration vessels that could venture out into other galaxies. Then the Sphere Builders happened.

>>52096376

>Sphere Builders happened

ibettheiconiansarebehindthis.png

Apparently, I don't have the reaction image, so we'll have to settle for a filename. But yeah. Recently been rewatching TNG, and it was funny that the early seasons had the Klingons as part of the Federation.

But yes, the Galaxy is a ship designed during peace time, intended for missions of peaceful exploration, diplomatic envoys, colonization, and emergency evacuation.

And it still has enough weapons to make aliens and the amnesiac crew conclude she's a warship.

That concept image though. I'm glad they didn't go with that. It would have been insufferable. More insufferable than Season 1 already is.

>>52093004
For you.

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The amount of anal devastation this ship has caused makes it 300% worth it.

>>52097133

It's ugly, and huge, and I can't think of a single person who actually likes the ship based on what we know about it in the canon.

But anal devastation? I can't imagine why anyone would be angry about it, when the T6 Constitution exists.

>>52097217
hey! you leave my ship out of this!

>>52096559

indirectly.
fucking Krenim.

>>52095686
I feel like the Intrepid and Nova were both the perfect size for their missions - long-range exploration no surveillance here at all, officer, and planetary survey. Plus, they were probably about the right size to be comfy as shit but still easy to navigate, Nova in particular.

>>52097314

Sorry, still salty that the ship of my childhood is so massively expensive I'll never fly it outside of the T1 version. It's not that I couldn't eventually afford it, it's just that spending that kind of money on gambling or spending that kind of time grinding goes against the grain of my personality.

That, and if I am going to spend real money or real time on digital goods, it had better be an account unlock.

>>52097414

Oh, yes. I know the Nova and her predecessor, the Oberth gets flak for being small and potentially a death trap, but they seem like the kind of ship where you could know everyone on a first name basis, and with a good crew where almost everyone gets along, a nice comfy community.

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>>52096376
>that bridge

No wonder ol' Matt Jefferies took one look at it and went NOPE. Fucking hell that damn conference table instead of captain's chair... That's just bad set design because it's not even easily accessible let alone failing to give the captain a proper central position.

Even if that table were pop-out of the floor stuff it's not even a good place to have a conference because you've got random low-ranked crew hanging around for shit that might be command staff only, and what're you gonna do, clear the bridge every time you want to discuss high security shit and leave all the controls unmanned?

Fuck, that design makes me angry. Apu yelling at Skinner about Billy and the Cloneasaurus tier angry. It's so fucking bad a design. Fucking BENCHES! Who the hell are they for? Fucking crew families and guests wanna go hang out in the fucking command centre? What kinda horseshit idea leads to equipping the damn bridge of even a fucking cruise liner, let alone one armed to battleship levels with benches for seating tons of random, clearly not-working people?

>>52097509
Probably peter for career advancement aswell. If you're an ensign on a Galaxy or Sovereign class, you're a dime a dozen. The odds that the command staff will notice your accomplishments and promote you are much lower. Unless you save the ship from a disaster of the week, you're going nowhere.

But on a Nova you're basically forced to take on responsibility because the ship is so small and everyone has to pull their own weight. And you'll nearly always be in direct contact and observation by the command staff. Due diligence and subtle but reliable improvisation will get you much farther than having to showboat for the captain.

>>52097669
*better

>>52098788
>Cute, compact, comfy and still capable.
Is there a better shipfu, /tg/?
Hard Mode: it can't be a hero ship from any of the series

>>52099273

Excelsior. Always Excelsior. (TNG version with the refit saucer but not the Ent-B's love handles on the secondary hull)

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>>52097333
>Krenim are behind the sphere builders
REEEEEEEE I DIDN'T THINK I COULD HATE THOSE ARROGANT FUCKS ANY HARDER

>>52099273
>>52099297
Excelsior is a fine choice. Luna is another good one.

>>52099434
Eh, it's only the one of them. You know, the one who bitches about everything because you erased his waifu.

>>52099529

The waifu he doesn't remember having existed.

>>52099580
Yes. Also her entire species. Who then become the Sphere Builders.

>>52099633
Is this from STO? Fucking Cryptic.

>>52099633

Casual genocide and temporal collateral damage are par for the course for the Fleet Admiral of 2410.

>>52099662
Yup.

>>52099273
>>52099297

The Excelsior is the correct answer. I also really like the Vesta- it's a pretty big ship but it still comes across to me as being really comfy.

And then there's the Nebula. Ugly as sin but multifunctional as fuck. It's like some Corellians ended up in our galaxy and got a job with Utopia Planitia.

>>52099529

I'm still not sure if Cryptic intended for Noye to be Future Guy or not.

>>52074615
>It looks like it's only 1 or 2 decks wide on the saucer section so internal space is probably comparable to a Sovereign class.

That's because there's nothing around it for scale. It's supposed to be, like, a couple of miles long, so that razor thing pizza cutter saucer is probably more like 10 or 15 decks minimum. Spacious Galaxy-class decks, not cramped Defiant ones, too.

>>52100154
The Luna is like what happens when a little Miranda wanders around Sovereign territory after dark and nine months later she gives berth. Nebbies are fine if you like fat chicks I guess.

t. Drunk

>>52093004
Not so big as her captain, I think.

>>52100642
Who the fuck is commanding that thing, a 600 pound porn star?

>>52100639
>gives berth

Amazing.

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>>52100639

>Nebbies are fat chicks

Fun to ride, but you don't tell anyone you captained one.

>>52100685
Yeah that's it you fat fuck jiggle those oversized nacelles.

>>52100438
It's a little vague, but yes. They did.

>>52100438
Future Guy will always be a Romulan in my mind; among other things, it explains nicely the Suliban's possession of cloaking devices, and why 22nd century Romulans had them as well: because Future Guy was trying to slow down Earth's development while teching up the Romulans so that they could win the Earth-Romulan War.

>>52099273
I will always, always have a soft spot for the NX class.

Why are there no tv series set in the Trek universe where the protags are the crew of a romulan ship? or klingons? slice of life shit that deals with how crazy the federation is, and internal politics or what have you. There was a TOS novel that was told through the eyes of a Klingon, pre TOS days, The Final Reflection. It was awesome as hell and apparently was the foundation for the FASA Klingons.

>>52097425
>Expecting lock box/R&D box ships to be account unlocks
Look at this lobeless fool! Look at him and laugh!

>>52101581

>gambling is for wise sapients, with enormous lobes!
>you'll never regret investing in a sure thing!
>it funds maintenance, bug quashing, and new content!
>no-no! the frame rate drops from the poorly coded UI and the broken animations are a feature, not a bug!

>>52099434
Well, technically speaking it was us.
>Tuterians aka sphere builders live in Delta quadrant
>We try t fight iconians by killing them in the past
>Run through countless simulations to see if anything works
>Timeline where Vulcans form a star empire like what Romulans did
>Timeline where Dominion takes over the federation with military force
>One ok timeline
>PSYCHE! Romulus is now invaded by the borg
>Delete a Borg transwarp network next to Romulus
>Romulus is blown up again, Borg go for Tuterians who escape to subspace and become the sphere builders in order to survive
>Noyes wife leaves a recording inside a temporally shielded computer where she says how she loves him and that she was carrying Noyes unborn child
>Noye reads through this and flips his shit, forms temporal liberation front
>Time war ensues!

>>52101389
Discovery will have a Klingon PoV to the story as well as the Discovery crew.
It might be a little more political than the Starfleet side of things though, since we know one of the Klingon characters wants to unite the Klingon houses and Sarek is involved in the show somehow (he was a major player in the Federation's political dealings with the Klinks).

>>52101701
Sounds interesting, legend of the galactic treks soon?
Also, nice enterprise get.

>>52094601
Ditto. I love my little Pioneer. Used it all the way up to tier 4, but it just couldn't take the punishment anymore.

>>52101815
>Used it all the way up to tier 4, but it just couldn't take the punishment anymore

Lewd.

>>52097133
Nice Guardian class. Whats the ass-fugly piece of shit below it?

>>52102230
The giant flat ship?
Universe class, straight out of a R&D box.

>>52100639
The Luna is a science-y Akira and the Nebula is a less child-friendly, multimission Galaxy.

>>52093690
I don't even know why people go for the Vengeance Class, it looks like crap.

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>>52097133
>some faggot gets the gamble box ship
>uses the default or rng name

>>52097667
>Fuck, that design makes me angry. Apu yelling at Skinner about Billy and the Cloneasaurus tier angry. It's so fucking bad a design. Fucking BENCHES! Who the hell are they for? Fucking crew families and guests wanna go hang out in the fucking command centre? What kinda horseshit idea leads to equipping the damn bridge of even a fucking cruise liner, let alone one armed to battleship levels with benches for seating tons of random, clearly not-working people?

Welcome to the bridge, with open bar.

>>52104819
Because it got a console that lets you fire some broadside phasers that apparently do some pretty high damage and can be fired while you are firing your regular weapons.
Also it's intel ship, so it has lots of hilariously overpowered skills available to its bridge crew.

>>52097133
Here's a tip for future picture taking.
Press alt+F12 to get the interface out of the way, take pics and then press alt+F12 again to get the interface back.

>>52104819
Big numbers.

And agreed, it's fugly to the point that it could have been one of Cryptic's own designs.

>>52101722
>legend of the galactic treks

We basically got that with Deep Space 9

So what's the deal with the Sheliac?

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>>52108857
They want all humanoid ambassadors to be females that wear Japanese schoolgirl uniforms. Riker knows why and is keeping quiet from Starfleet Command so long as they send him holorecordings.

>>52108857

They're dicks.

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>>52104819

Personally, I hate the ship. Hate the movie it came from, hate the universe those movies are set in.

But I have one. And the amount of murderizing it can do is phenomenal. With Kemocite Laced Weaponry I running, it does something like 3-4k damage per hit with BFaW III. And I'm not even using the Intel powers for even more cheese.

I'd rather have something that does comparable damage in a TOS inspired chassis, but I'll Miss Ugly McFuckhuge for now.

>>52110470
Yeah. If kitted properly, it's just about unbeatable in terms of deeps. That said, it is a spacebourne abortion.

>>52093614
It can't ever be unseen.

>>52110470
>>52110506

I actually think the look of the Vengeance is perfectly fitting. It's ugly and twisted just like Damon Lindelof's writing.

>>52113035

It does fit the narrative of the movie, in that it's a hideous betrayal of everything that Starfleet stands for in visual form.

But it isn't an aesthetically pleasing thing to look at.