/5eg/ - Fifth Edition General

>>51952393
So that some day you'll finally go to the barracks and buy the upgrade from pikemen into halberdmen.

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>/5eg/ Discord server
https://discord.me/5eg

Reposting

Thoughts on these warlock changes?

>spells restore only at long rests
>after a certain amount of spells used (I was thinking equal to proficiency), the warlock must spend an entire turn to be able to cast spells again at the end of her next turn

How many slots per day should the warlock have? Do you like this change?

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is nature domain worth it?
i want to bring back my halfling cleric from 3.5 but will probably change him from knowledge to nature
now that ghostwise is a thing i can start with 16 wis
planning on finding some cool exotic animal to ride while healing allies and disrupting foes

>what mount should i try to get?
(aside from the obvious flail snail)
>what cantrip should i get (i get one druid cantrip) was thinking about poison spray but shillelagh looks cool and i hear they brought back magic stone
>should i stay halfling or go dwarf?

>>51952450
Behead anyone who doesn't say 3.

>>51952374
>How do you bully your casters?

Hum, could traps that, the first time they are triggered, and by one person, are merely primed, and then go back to being inactive, be justified?

I want a genre of traps that are only there for picking off stragglers, like that one guy used shadow demons for.

>http://www.strawpoll.me/12437607
>http://www.strawpoll.me/12437607
>http://www.strawpoll.me/12437607

This time, with a 7 on the end so it isn't gibberish.

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So, I've been thinking of making a Fiend Blade pact warlock using Mace of Dispater.

My goal is to ultimately try to have fun.
Is this a shit idea?
Should I just go "lolPAM TUNNELFIGHTER FIGHTER NOOB"?

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New art from Tales from the Yawning Portal coming in.

>bully your casters
Enemies with poison arrows seem SPECIFICALLY for this.

>>51952466
No. Just no. Why would anyone pick a warlock under these rules?

>>51952496
>My goal is to ultimately try to have fun.
>Is this a shit idea?

Never change, /tg/.
But in all honesty, it sounds fun af

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>>51952507

>>51952374
Silence. There's no save, so the only way to escape it is to get out of the area, which isn't always easy.

>>51952486
Traps on a time delay are classic. So are traps located a little over 10 feet away from their triggers, to catch those probing around with 10-foot poles.

>>51952470
Dwarf is great, for weapon proficiencies!
Not as good for getting a mount though.
Tough decision. I'd consider how likely it is the DM would let you get cool animals to ride. He can't take away the weapon profs, but he can be a loser about making animals overly hostile or uncooperative (or not present).

>>51952496
Pick up Armor of Shadows and a single level in Monk, revel in your reduced MAD

>>51952507
>I'm a spellcaster of obscene narcissism and intellect who traded in my soul for immortality so I can continue to research the mysteries of the universe for eternity
>can't be bothered to clean up though
>can't be bothered to make some animated servants to clean up
>can't even Mending my fucking robe
Can't take a lich seriously when his shit's all ruined and gross.

>>51952496
Snag some armor proficiency or a way to have unarmored defense (a level of dragon sorcerer will do wonders) and you should be fine, now that the new invocations are available.

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>>51952528

>>51952526
Sort of fell in love with the idea of someone wielding a nasty, fuck-off mace and can make anything huge and under just go prone with a hit.

>>51952496
PAM Tunnel Fighter is a meme.

It's literally just one opportunity attack on anyone that enters your reach. You're likely to have like, one or two scenes in a campaign in which you become death, destroyer of worlds. In most situations, PAM TF does nothing but give you a free attack against any enemy that comes into your reach. Against most enemies, that does nothing more than give you a minor advantage.

>>51952374
>How do you bully your casters?
By having more than one counterspellers.
By dispelling effects that have duration.

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>>51952554

>>51952489
Yes, but no multiclassing, and ONLY FOR PEOPLE WHO ROLL TERRIBLE STATS

>>51952520
You dont rely on short rests anymore, lets say you will have 6 slots at level 5, its basically the same thing right now if you rest 2 times

>>51952470
Dwarf Nature Cleric is a pretty solid early game (1-4) plan. You can get +con +wis, extra HP, and dump Str. Using Shillelagh as your Druid cantrip you have just Wis for your damage/spells, and free Con. Str doesn't matter since you're a dwarf, and can wear plate + a shield for big AC.

>>51952528
>naked man wearing an amulet and shooting magical bullshit out of his hand
This is either the world's worst Wizard or the world's worst Barbarian.

>>51952549
Rolled for stats, since our DM specified that we should do so this time around.
I can end up with 16str, 16 dex and 16cha if need be.

>>51952552
Might pick up Moderately Armored(I think it's called that) as my first feat to avoid delaying my second attack.

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>>51952578

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>>51952608

>>51952507
>>51952528
>>51952554
>>51952578
>>51952608
>>51952635
Thank you Dragon Maganon

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>>51952543
the dwarf is hard to picture as a nature cleric and the only weapon i'd need is a staff if i grab shillelagh
however the nature cleric should have enough animal handling and spells to charm a monster as well as any ranger or druid right?

>>51952635
>Welcome, adventurer,
>to the world's first outdoor gay brothel!

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>>51952635
And, finishing, 2 pages from the book itself.
The Tomb of Horrors section.

>>51952466
You're making warlock less unique, and honestly you should fix short rests instead.

>>51952447
No.

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>>51952489
>All these people with their wrong opinions

>>51952589
It's a fucking shield spell

>>51952528
I love the map art for this one.

>>51952685
>mighty wizard full of arcane secrets and eldritch knowledge, capable of bending reality to his will
>ripped abs, pecs, zero clothing

>>51952656
AYY IT'S NOT JUST A FORGOTTEN REALMS BOOK

>>51952666
I know, but warlocks would still cast spell at their max level, still dont have multiple levels slot and I dont know how to fix short rests

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>>51952714
>>51952656
>run Curse of Strahd
>replace mentions of the ancient temple to the south with stories of a long lost tomb of a great wizard
>replace Amber Temple with Tomb of Horrors
>place the vestige sarcophagi around the dungeon

Tomb of Horrors is a meme adventure.

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Do you feel that the "gritty realism" rest rules (8 hour short rest, week long rest) regardless of their potential impact on the tone of a campaign are better for class balance in general, since few people accomplish the short to long rest balance that the design assumes?

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>>51952608
>>51952635
The art for these looks great.

>>51952714
Hopefully this will do well enough for them to make more setting-neutral adventures.

>>51952825
Yes

>>51952823
It's a good meme though

>>51952374
Flail Snail is cute!
CUTE!
CUUUUUUUUTE!

>>51952825
No, because 7 days for a long rest is absurd. If you scale up a short rest to 8 hours, then proportionately a long rest should be ~3 days, which is much more reasonable.

>>51952842
They're all setting-neutral except for CoS, and even then you just have to bullshit some Dark Powers-esque entity/ties, dumb-dumb.

>>51952857
No, White Plume Mountain is a good meme. It does everything ToH wanted to do without being stupid bullshit.

From the previous thread:
Are valor bards halfway good? Not really compared to say lore bards (as I feel like lore is just the superior choice but feel free to argue that, it would help) but just in general, as I'm wanting to play one.
My big question is how fucked/allright are they in a melee? Like should they just stay out and use their two attacks for arrows or when they're cornered, or can they provide effective melee support while still part time barding?

>>51952880
That's the point.

>>51952922
The point is to be shitty and unfun?

>>51952933
I'm playing it, and having fun.

>>51952645
The way I flavor my Nature Cleric Dwarf is that he's basically a Druid, but less of a fruit pansy that explodes upon touching metal. More moderate.

You can talk with, and charm animals as spells, and can AoE charm with divinity. Not that bad. As long as you take proficiency in animal handling, and nature, and roleplay it you're basically 9/10ths of the Druid stereotype.

>>51952886
I don't think you know what setting-neutral means senpai.

>>51952825
No, not really, because while it makes casters weaker, it also makes barbarians a lot weaker while moon druids stay just as strong (stronger, even, relative to fighters and warlocks).

Not all features that regain on a short rest are exactly equivalent. Not all features that regain on a long rest are exactly equivalent. Much of 5e's ability recharges are, by the designers' admission, based on story impact and fluff over actual mechanical impact.

>>51952374

My biggest problem with traps is how they slow the game down as soon as someone triggers one. I would love to have a giant trap-filled dungeon but I'm sure it would devolve into a Tomb of Horrors 11-foot pole-fest. It sucks that they didn't address Detecting Traps at all.

>>51952916
Fuck melee. Steal swift quiver spell from ranger, use bow.

>>51952950
The fuck do you do for your entire week of downtime between every dungeon/subplot?

How would you fix two-weapon fighting?

>>51952748
Wasn't there a lich who managed to get sucked into Ravenloft who taught Strahd a shit ton of spells that he now uses in exchange for something or another. The whole wizard thing could work.

Carousing, crafting, and other living activities.

>>51953011
Not the fighting style, just the way dual wielding is completely gimped in comparison to bows/crossbows and heavy weapons.

>>51953038
So I assume your DM just never has any time-sensitive plots?

>>51952995
Role-playing. You should try it sometime.

>>51952986
>I won't be satisfied unless every city and location name is completely made-up and can just be bonked down in whatever empty field of nonsense exists in my preferred setting
Everything is setting-neutral. You just strip the names out and replace it with shit from your setting. Guess what, bitch, Storm King's Thunder now takes place in Pale, northern Nyrond, and Griff Mountain. Dragonbitch lives in the Flint Hills. We're fucking done here.

>>51953066
He does, which means every long rest has to be a serious consideration.

>>51953070
You can roleplay without being forced to do it for a week at a time. Then it just gets annoying.

>>51952489
Goddamn, your homebrew is getting BTFO anon.

>>51952825
It doesn't matter how long the book says a rest is because the entire concept of time and events is entirely in the hands of the GM, he either lets the party take a rest or he doesn't, he decides that something happens during that rest or nothing happens.

>>51953011
New feats. It's fine without them, and shit comparatively to polearms/heavy/ranged/crossbows with them.

>>51953091
So you're basically playing bookkeeping: the game? Sounds like you'd prefer Pathfinder.

>>51953050
It works a little better on things that transfer damage over (even without the fighting style) as that extra attack means more. Rangers with hunters mark/colossus slayer can do a bit more damage (with colossus slayer if they haven't triggered it yet), paladins with improved smite can key off those extra d8s (though sadly they are about the only folks who don't get two weapon style), barbarian extra damage still goes onto it I'm pretty sure, bladelocks too. Rogues get a second chance to sneak attack if their first misses.
None of these make it great but I feel like they help rescue it a little. I don't feel that it's by any means unplayable.

>>51953100
Have you considered playing a heroic miniature wargame instead of a role-playing game, since you seem to find the roleplaying aspects annoying if they are too prominent?

>>51953120
Anon, I don't think a week long rest is a good idea, but you're being extremely uncharitable. There's nothing more bookkeeping focused about it.

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>>51953072
>Tfw SKT doesn't work in Eberron because of giants falling even further than FR lore and dragons' roles being different
>Tfw PotA is really contrived in Eberron because of the way the planes work and easy communication putting a real damper on that world threatening countryside cult threat
>Tfw Ravenloft doesn't work in Eberron because the Sphere of the Three Dragons is isolated from all others, lest their world come to change them all once its revelations are shared

>>51953156
There's no reason Strahd has to be on a different plane. The original module never even specified such.

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>>51952635
>>51952608
>>51952578
>>51952554
>>51952528
>>51952507
Can these stupid fucks stop reprinting old adventurers for a second and actually make some new content for the game? Barring the fact that only the laziest, most uncreative and boring DMs actually run published adventurers for any length of time, adventures are far better for third parties to create because they don't affect game balance. Whereas new feats, monsters, and classes would be great. Official ones, too, because homebrew is 90% shit and also is now RAW. Most homebrew is unbalanced garbage as demonstrated by what is posted here. So Wizards of the Coast might as well actually create some real content. Like, I dunno, a second monster manual? They could even rip off the thousands of monsters in 3.5's monster manuals which were excellent in concept, and reuse them. Bam. Easy cash. Most of the 5e players wouldn't even know what they are because almost none of them have played any previous edition thanks to the normie invasion.

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>>51953100
>head off to the shop
>manager asks me why I'm wearing chainmail and a fake beard
>"The party took a long rest with a variant rule that makes it a week long. I'm RPing in my downtime. Uh, manling."
>tells me I'm out of uniform
>beat him with a fucking stick
>drain the water cooler into the sink, punch a hole in the top, and fill it with booze
>grunt at all the customers
>demand a reward for handling any of their orders
>take the office phone home with me so I can attune to this strange "Sending Stone"

I'm making a campaign map at the moment, and I want to know if there's anything you guys expect to find or think is cool in a D&D setting. I'm generally assuming all the core races are somewhere and have the same crunch, even if they might be a little different from the core fluff.

I'm shooting for a sort of classic feel with a few personal twists. That means I already have a northern mountain range where dwarves live in a pass, a southern desert/jungle, big tribe lands at one edge, a dark forest/swamp, and a spooky elven forest. Even some lost cities. Not sure if I'm missing something obvious.

>>51952496
Start with 15 in Strength, Constitution and Charisma, 8 in everything else.
Go Mountain Dwarf for dem proficiencies.
AT level 4, snag heavy armour training and +1 Strength.
At 8th, snag +1 Con and Charisma.

Then you're sitting in fullplate with 18 Strength, 18 Con and 16 Charisma.

After you can either chase the 20CHA or 20STR.

Upsides, Great AC, good bladelock stats, you've got a free hand for whatever I don't know flipping people off?

Downsides AC sucks until 4th, casting isn't great but your spell slots are for smiting bitches. Bladelock sucks something terrible either way.

>>51953142
I don't see how someone wouldn't get bored with roleplaying when it takes up 90% of play time.

>>51953152
Time-sensitive plots with week-long rests just leads to tedious bookkeeping and annoying management of abilities. You hardly ever get to use your cool shit because it takes so long to get it back. It unnecessarily slows the game to a crawl. I'm sorry you have to sit through that.

>>51953156
>dragonbitch is now something else
>giants are now something else
>who cares how the plane works, there's elementally-aligned entities who want to fuck shit up
>whoops knocked over the communication towers / no one believes your shit about the cult (because they've been compromised)
you need to get better at refluffing hombre

>>51953202
Are you retarded?

>>51953194
>Like, I dunno, a second monster manual?
What is "Volo's Guide to Monsters"

>>51953256
doesn't have manual in the title

>>51953194
>what is volo's guide to monsters

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>>51953194
>actually create some real content. Like, I dunno, a second monster manual?
Volo's Guide to Monsters is literally that, fampire.

>>51953225
Yeah, I definitely recommend something like runequest instead of a role-playing game. You need something that condenses everything to combat.

>>51953264
>Volo's Guide to Monster Manuals
>117 pages of Volo talking shit about art styles, inconsistencies in creature behavior between versions and his own canon, wonky CR calculations, AD&D statblocks, and Elminster calling him a faggot

>>51952374
Don't bully your casters, at least if they're Diviners or Lore wizards. You might regret that.

Allright, /5eg/. Give me the best justified Quarterstaff build (meaning there is a reason not to use a glaive), stat!

>>51953229
What am I going to do in place of bloody giants, say the Lord of Blades has finished the Godforged prototypes and have Gundams attack the cities?
And there are no communication towers unless you mean House Sivis outposts are going silent, and nobody fucks with or outcorrupts the Dragonmarked Houses.

>>51953194

Old modules: Here's a site you can explore!

New modules: You're in a RACE against TIME to fight the BBEG before he summons Satan! j/k Satan gets freed anyway and you get to fight him!

Christ, I'm just grateful for once they're making actual fuckin dungeons, even if they are remakes.

And while new monsters are good, new feats and classes are of dubious value indeed.

>>51953238
Its called joking captain autism.

>>51953116
>>51953140
It just feels so weak in comparison to fighter with Great Weapon Master or Sharpshooter. The average damage output of the 3 attacks with a d8 weapon is barely 2/3ds of sharpshooter or GWM damage. Hell even 2 attacks is typically weaker than just one from those.

GWM is with a greataxe and Sharpshooter is with a hand crossbow, +3 damage modifier to all. Numbers are broken into the cumulative damage for attacks. I added the third attack (from GWM if you crit or kill something) to show potential output.

>Level 6 Barbarian with Great Weapon Master = 22.5 - 45 - 67.5
>Level 6 Fighter with Great Weapon Master = 19.5 - 39 - 58.5
>Level 6 Fighter with Sharpshooter (Hand Crossbow) = 16.5 - 33
>Level 6 Fighter with Sharpshooter & Crossbow Expert (Hand Crossbow) = 16.5 - 33 - 49.5
>Level 6 Fighter with Two Weapon Fighting & Dual Wielding = 7.5 - 15 - 22.5

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>>51953307
>have Gundams attack the cities
Yes, idiot.

>>51953256
>>51953270
>>51953287
Yeah and 90% of it is elaboration on already existent D&D monsters.

Time to see whether any useful information can be gained from this or whether it'll just be garbage.

What's your least favorite archetype in 5e?

>http://www.strawpoll.me/12438586
>http://www.strawpoll.me/12438586
>http://www.strawpoll.me/12438586

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>>51953316
You clearly never played any old modules. You only read about strawmen of them on /tg/. But, I understand. Villifying OSR is a big part of the 5e dogma. It relies on that almost as much as villifying 3.5. Because, sure, 5e might suck, but it's not as bad as 3e or 2e, right? Right?

Right?

>>51953301
>Paladin
>Warlock 3, take tome, get shillelagh
>attack with charisma, use a shield, take PAM.
done.

>>51953156
SKT works fine. There are primordial giants, and dragons can be dickish, even EXTREMELY so. Dragons are Racial Holy War at all times, so just the rumor that someone was fuckin a dragon is enough to make them have a chimp out.

And honestly PotA is way more plausible in Eberron than in FR, because FR is overflowing with uber wizards. Elemental Evil works way better in Greyhawk than in FR.

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>>51953341
You know, this was vaguely my plan, but I hadn't thought to consult SKT.

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>>51953072
Setting neutral literally means you don't have to go to the trouble of rejiggering the adventure and redrawing the map. Also, there's no need to be so rude.

>>51953395
>hey we're running an Elemental Evil plot in Forgotten Realms
>it's all about the Princes of Elemental Evil
>L I T E R A L L Y Z E R O mention of the Princes of Good or the neutral Lords
what
the
fuck

>>51953011
Two-weapon-fighting already has uses in certain classes.

You could make archetypes that work better with two-weaopn-fighting, granting bonuses to it or simply giving +damage bonuses per hit thus making you want to get more hits, but disallowing you from using PAM instead.

Give all classes the 'dual wielder' feat for free when they get the extra attack feature.

>>51953217
We rolled for stats, and I ended up with 16, 16, 15, 14, 14, 11.

Also I was thinking of going halforc but that seems pretty interesting. Though, how do you reckon snagging Heavy armor training AND +1str at lvl 4?
Isn't it either feat or ASI?

>>51953389
If you think I was portraying new modules as good and old modules as bad I guess that was a shitty example, I am an OSR regular and despise "the whole campaign is about being one step behind the BBEG and thwarting him, whoops you failed and have to fight Satan anyway!"

Anyway, I like OD&D, BECMI, 1e, 3.5, 4e, and 5e plenty.

>>51953289
That's not at all what I'm arguing, but you can keep strawmanning if it makes you feel better about your games being shit.

>>51953389
He's saying old modules are better, hence the:
>Christ, I'm just grateful for once they're making actual fuckin dungeons, even if they are remakes.
Stop fighting against the nu-DnD Bogeyman in your head.

>>51953389
>Villifying OSR is a big part of the 5e dogma.
Wait, what? That guy's post is all about how old modules are good and new ones are dogshit. That's the opposite of "vilifying" OSR, isn't it?

>>51953370
>Oath of Ancients
>Inquisitive
>Arcane Archer
Wait, people have a problem with those archetypes?

>>51953422
Actually, more specifically
'If you gain the extra attack feature from a class/class archetype that also providies shield proficiency, you automatically gain the dual wielder feat'. There. Fuck you, bladesinger. And no free +1 AC for monk.

>>51953389
>not as bad as 3e or 2e, right?
None of those editions are OSR, OSR is Basic and AD&D 1e only.

>>51953449
Great taste

>Thinking about a dual-wielding Barbarian
>Handaxes are a great starting place, 1d6 and can even be thrown
>Once you take the Dual Wielder feat you still need to sacrifice the throwing ability to upgrade the damage
How do I reconcile this?

>>51953460
Arcane archer has way too few uses of the magic arrow to actually be good

>>51953389
>Villifying OSR is a big part of the 5e dogma.
>hating on 2e
Vilifying everything else is a big part of the OSR dogma.

>>51953316
>New modules
When was that? I stopped getting modules around the time 3e came out and 2e modules are still pretty much always "here's this place to explore"

Also reminder that Dragonlance's final module was very much this and it was 1E.

>>51953479
2e is interchangeable with 1e in almost every rule. NWP were in 1e UA.

>>51953460
>Oath of Ancients
"Oh noes, a CG Paladin, what a horror", and unlike vengeance it lacks the edgetard appeal
>Inquisitive
Dumb name?
>Arcane Archer
Too few uses of their arrows.

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>the new Dragon+ adds fucking palicoes
This would have been a much better UA than "traps".

>>51953486
Don't take dual wielder. Use daggers.
Multiclass into rogue.

Preach on about how people underestimate small blades while wrecking shit.

Or, uhh, you can actually throw any weapon you like. Just, it deals 1d4 damage and has a range of 20/60ft.

>>51953512
>Vilifying everything else is a big part of the OSR dogma.

That's because D&D editions 3e and onward have been shit. Rules in place of story. I don't think I need to say anymore. That's why I play Dungeon World now.

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>>51953555
Fuck off, Virt.

>>51953555
Fuck off, Virt.

>>51953555
MouseGuard/Torchbearer = Ryuutama >>>>>>>> Dungeon Shit

>>51953551
Wait a minute.

What's the point of daggers if you can just throw shortswords instead for the same damage and range?

>>51953551
This makes daggers worse than useless

>>51953541
I always thought Oath of the Ancients fit Neutral Good like a glove, but for some reason people always peg it as chaotic first. It always felt like just spreading the light and being a cool dude.

>>51950843
>Delayed spell
you can cast a spell but delay it's effect, like readying a spell but last more than one turn.
>Spell turning
as a reaction, if an enemy casts a spell that you know you can expand a spell slot and make an ability check against some number to be determined to turn the spells
>Spell empowering
as a reaction, when a spellcaster cast a spel you know,l you can join in and upcast the spell by n level by expanding a n level spell slot.
>Expanded spell
augment the area of the spell.

>>51953555
>Rules in place of story

Rules have always been held in higher regard than story in D&D as far back as fucking OD&D. Story has never been the focus of OSR and it's only 2010 onward that storyshit has been pushed to the forefront. You can take your trash heap of a "gaming" system and stick it up Koebel's ass with his boyfriend's fists while you're at it.

Storygames are the reason this hobby is dying and getting gentrified to suit the nu-male palate, this has and always will be a simulationist's hobby first and foremost - narrativist fucking shits can hang at the gallows where they rightfully belong.

>>51953555
Dude
2e is more rules-heavy than 5e by a longshot
On release, it was more rules-heavy than 3e
Feck off

>>51953541
>>51953617
I guess because it like self-expression? Still, I agree, it's mostly NG.

>>51953368
Keep moving those goalposts, maybe you'll find them someday.

>>51953617
Honestly I think part of the hate is less "Chaotic" and more "oh god more elf shit".

>>51953650
>hating on storygames
Storygames is the only reason your miniature fightan game hobby survived through the 90s

>>51953718
Weird, I always see people using it to make Solaire jokes.

>>51953744
In what world did any storygame outsell 2e in the 90s? What timeline are you operating from?

>>51953756
Praise the Sun! \[T]/

>>51953765
Depends how you're counting, TSR being run by people with the business sense of a marmoset, they were putting out enough high quality material to oversaturate everything. Including their budgets, which couldn't keep up.

And yet, White Wolf in its heyday was still a solid competitor to them.

>>51953582
Cheaper, everyone can use them, more likely to find magic ones, maybe (in published adventures for sure)

>>51953582
You can throw daggers and still have your proficiency bonus on the attack without requiring the Tavern Brawler feat.

>>51953578

I have no issues with the more rulesheavy D&D of today...and last 15 years, but yeah, Torchbearer is the hotness when it comes to dungeon crawls.

>>51953983
>more rulesheavy D&D of today
I have no idea what you're talking about
1e+2e were the crunchiest systems I've ever seen (except FATAL, of course).

>>51953951
It doesn't say that you can't use your normal bonuses on it. An improvised thrown weapon (shortsword) is still a shortsword, and any abilities pertaining to that shortsword would still apply.

If you use, say, a wardrobe as a weapon, that's a different matter.

>>51953997
Thats why you play B/X instead. Nothing better than write "elf" as your class.

>>51953225
>Time-sensitive plots with week-long rests just leads to tedious bookkeeping and annoying management of abilities. You hardly ever get to use your cool shit because it takes so long to get it back. It unnecessarily slows the game to a crawl. I'm sorry you have to sit through that.
I don't have to sit through it; I'm not that guy and I said it was a bad idea. But you have to keep track of your expended abilities no matter how you play. As for "cool shit", you don't get to use it if you spend a session just RPing either - have you really never done that?

>>51954008
Any DM that rules this is an idiot. No part of training with a shortsword (or any other pure melee weapon) involves learning how to throw it. When it comes to being a throwing weapon, it is no better than a random stick off the floor. No proficiency bonus.

Anybody here know where I can read a bit more into Grayhawk? It's the one setting I know pretty much nothing about so I'd like to give it a look over.

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>>51954038
>No part of training with a shortsword (or any other pure melee weapon) involves learning how to throw it.

What about throwing the pommel?

>>51952374
Can anyone suggest more cool monsters in the vein of Flail Snail?

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>>51954038
>implying
I wouldn't give it because that'd be asinine to actual throwing weapons, but I'd give it the full weapon damage if it hits

>>51954145
Sure, it's still sharp and moves fast. Damage wouldn't change. But nobody can tell me they're "proficient" with throwing flails.

>>51954145
But shortswords are in no way designed to be thrown, and that would be reflected in the damage it deals. Even on the rare chance it lands point-in instead of smacking the enemy with the flat or the handle, it's not going to have the force that a normal sword thrust would have.

>>51954177
Exotic Weapons would cover it.
>What are Bolas

>>51954177
Unless they're a tavern brawler, which also makes them proficient with throwing tables, tankards, kegs, chandeliers, doors, goblins, wenches, etc

>>51954080
It's funny once, twice, but after that, I implore you to just stop.

>>51954187
>>What are Bolas
Not flails.

>>51954177
Throwing a flail seems like it'd be easy.

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>>51954089
Roving Mauler is always relevant

>>51954089
Weapon - d12
1 Sword
2 Spear
3 Hammer
4 Knife
5 Axe
6 Sickle
7 Whip
8 Mace
9 Bow
10 Sling
11 Dart
12 Flail

Harmless creepy crawly - d8
1 Fly
2 Slug
3 Grasshopper
4 Worm
5 Beetle
6 Cicada
7 Moth
8 Snail

Knock yourself out.

>>51954255
Is this what happens to kids who flail their arms around like a windmill?

>>51954089
Boggles
Kobold Inventors
Slithering Trackers

>>51953370
I think people are just biased against Loremaster because it was so recent.

Rolled 4 + 1 (1d12 + 1)

>>51954262
Immediately noticed...

HAMMERHOPPER. Y'ALL GONNA DIE.

I'm looking for a good archetype to fit my Dwarven Outlander Rogue, and I just found out about the Inquisitive Archetype from this thread. The abilities are interesting, and I like the idea of my barbaric, straightforward dude being very good at detecting lies, but I'm not sure how to work it in fluff-wise.
Should I try to make him focused on rooting out lies and secrets, or can I get away with him just being a no-nonsense motherfucker?

>>51954187
>What are Bolas
Two balls connected by a leather thong and in no way resembling a flail.
>>51954191
Of course. I was talking about applying regular weapon proficiency to improvised use, which is bullshit.
>>51954253
No way man, that shit is NOT balanced for throwing. It is not at all aerodynamic, and the chain would cause unpredictable effects on the trajectory.

>>51954271
>>51954253
>>51954208
>>51954177
>Writing the word flail without immediately following it with the word snail

Rolled 8 + 1 (1d12 + 1)

>>51954289
You didn't multi-dice right I think?

>>51954310
To be fair, spikey ball flails are as historically accurate as flail snails.

>>51954323
Neither did you, anon.

How does this even work.

>>51954253
I think the hardest part would be making sure you don't get hit by the handle, since it would spin much faster than the ball. But I don't know how much that kind of thing might throw off your aim.

For a group that doesn't have a cleric, what would be the best way to get healed in and out of battle?

>>51954385
A cleric.

>>51954309
You're not doing it right.

>>51954372
You spin the head around and throw, letting it carry the handle away from you. You're not looking for a handle-over-head sideways-tumbling throw.

BRB making a flail IRL to try this out

Rolled 6 + 1 (1d12 + 1)

>>51954353
>>51954323
Fuck has it been so long I forgot how to dice? Or did they change it?

>>51954393
Anything else?

>>51954385
>in combat:
Potions
>out of combat:
Short rests
Alternatively a druid or bard.

>>51952578
>5e
>republish old content
>re-do old art
Can't have the monster choking the woman, like in the original image, now can we? That would be sexist.

>>51954385
Short rests, your DM not using shitty save throw rules and using something more akin to fighting spirit instead, healer feat, druid, paladin, bard, long rests, potions.

Rolled 5 (1d8)

>>51954407
I guess they did.

Should these be made in two parts then?

Allright, so we got:

SICKLE

>>51954432
>>51954440
All right, thanks.

>>51954396
When you throw it, the ball wants to spin in the air. This will whip the stick around it and kill any semblance of a predictable trajectory.

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>>51954436
Don't assume the gender of the aztec warrior in that picture shitlord.

Rolled 10 (1d12)

>>51954449
SICKLE BEETLE it is.

Sounds awfully like a more deadly Hercules beetle, to be honest.

Although, a huge-ass Hercules beetle would probably make for a nice encounter.

ROLLAN AGAIN (Trying another formula for the roll)

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>>51954494

>>51954262

>>51953512
>When was that?

for example, 2e's Dead Gods and Die Vecna Die, 4e's thingy where you gotta save RQ from Orcus, and most of the 5e adventure paths

>>51953617
its cuz CG and NG, like LE and NE, are the same alignment in most conceptions (in 5e though, CG, CN, LN, and LE are the same alignment)

>Been DMing a group for a year.
>First time Player Character death against a dragon.
How did your PCs and NPCs react to one of the player characters dying?

>>51954449
SICKLE BEETLE, LARGE BEAST
HP: 42 (5d10 + 15)
AC: 15 (natural armo)
Speed: 20 ft.

Actions: Bite
+8 to hit, 2d10+5 slashing damage.

The attack is critical on a 19 or a 20. If the attack scores a critical hit, the opponent must make a DC 10 Dex saving throw. Failure indicates that one of the target's extremities have been sliced off (roll a d8: 1-4=arm, 5-8=leg, even is left and odd is right)

>>51954556
How the fuck do you figure that BS with the alignments?

>>51954540
>most of the 5e adventure paths
That' s only true of Dragon Queen though
Also 1e has modules like that too.

Rolled 4 (1d8)

>>51954560
Holy shit that is dangerous.

Also, completing >>51954494
SLING

File: Saiyan[draft1].pdf (1B, 486x500px)

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First time homebrew here, could I get some feedback on this? It's for one of my players.

>>51954604
SLING WORM

Wither before me as I slither.

>>51954617
>Sling Worm
>Slithers up to it's opponents at top speed
>Tries to grapple by wrapping around them
>Tries to wring/crush them with it's body
>Finishes it's attack off by flinging them a long distance to deal damage

>>51953744
>Storygames is the only reason your miniature fightan game hobby survived through the 90s

Not at all, "story" is by far the least important element of an RPG, or rather, its an element that, like the luminiferous aether, is everywhere and even if the DM tries to run a campaign as goofily anti-plot as possible the DM and players will inevitably conjure a new one.

>>51953868
That was because Lorraine (sp) ran the company into the ground, and because of the "writers > players" ethos that almost destroyed the game. Even though story is the least important part of a published adventure by far.

>>51954617
Clearly a giant worm that can slither round a boulder, root its other end in place, and then sling the rock.

>>51953997
Crunch in terms of how you play your character = good
Crunch in terms of how you build your character = bad

>>51954646
>>51954651
Oh man, that's good too. Why not both?

>lives in mountains
>hunts by flinging rocks, often at birds
>if cornered, grabs the attacker and flings them off the mountain

>>51954436
He/she/they could easily be a cuntboy, all forms of genital and gender mixups are canon.

>apologies for using the implied pejorative term "mixup" to refer to the 1001 different configurations of identity and biology possible in a fantasy realm

>>51954297
Being naturally perceptive and keen of mind goes pretty well with the Wanderer feature, actually.

>>51954598

>That's only true of Dragon Queen though

At a minimum, POTA and Out of the Abyss.

>Also 1e has modules like that too.

don't understand what this has to do with the conversation at all

>>51954650
Lorraine Williams' ethos presided over the golden age of 2e and still ensured that 1e books were printed all the way to the 90s, when just about any other ceo would just have killed the line.

2E still had a ton of exploration focused modules, 2E had OG Darksun, Planescape and the expansion of Ravenloft beyond fucking I6 into a proper setting with some of the best D&D exploration modules ever made. The only thing she did wrong was get Saint Gary off the board and it's pretty much the only thing grogs have against her. Everything else is a goddamn lie.

>>51954593
>How the fuck do you figure that BS with the alignments?

Neutral: Don't think too hard about moral stuff
Chaotic Good: Follow your conscience (which is a kind of whim)
Chaotic Neutral: Follow your whims (one of which is your conscience)
Lawful Neutral: Follow your code (which was created through a whim and probably based off your conscience)
Lawful Evil: Take what you want within the context of your code (which was decided upon by your whim and conscience)

Stuff like "slavery = lawful evil, fighting against oppression = chaotic good, being a super serious town guard = lawful neutral" aren't ... things in 5e.

>>51954662
That's fair. I'd say 5e is definitely comparable to 2e in terms of building, and is much less crunchy in gameplay.

>>51953194
The simple fact of the matter is that the new adventure content has been much more successful than past editions' splat. Better received, less alienation of new players over time.

And it to a point, it was true in 2nd Edition as well: the setting box sets were always what stuck with people. That's what people talk about, even now, and even on /tg/. The only time I've seen people on /tg/ mention 2e's splat is to gripe about broken-ass dagger-throwing fighters or how they hate The Book of Elves.

>>51953316
I'm not a "prewritten adventure" kind of guy so I'm not sure if they're any good at all, but WotC's put out a lot of single-serving type stuff on the DM's Guild.

>>51954757
Neutral on the Law/Chaos scale is not the same thing as Neutral on the Good/Evil scale.

So I've heard a lot of White Plume Mountain, and it sounds pretty good. What's your opinion on it?

>>51954678
That's a great middle ground.

>>51954749

Yeah, we know Lorraine Williams killed TSR and drove it into the ground, you don't need to remind us.

>2E had OG Darksun, Planescape

Them being "good" (I acknowledge Out of the Abyss to be great, even though its as new school and stereotypically railroady as possible) isn't relevant to the discussion.

Planescape and Ravenloft modules are archetypal railroads. The only reason people like Planescape is because of Torment, anyway.

>>51954777
"Neutral" was referring to the alignment.

>>51954788
>The only reason people like Planescape is because of Torment, anyway.
And the art, the art in that book is gorgeous

>>51954611
First off: Super Sayan at 5th level? Like, if the scale of the game is Dragon Ball, I get it, but if it's in any way related to D&D, it should be 10-15th level at it's earliest, if not 20th level epic boon.

Statistically, there is not much wrong with Super Sayan though.

Oozaru form can be ended by cutting the tail off, you forgot that. It has been done in the series several times. Oozaru form's health should also be reflected to the original form. (Vegeta's lost eye was not healed in Z cha 41)

Your blurb needs more spellchecking, too. For example, Oozaru's transformation chance is written twice.

I also suggest you use http://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/ to get somewhat better formatting

>>51954788
I hate Torment and I like reading about Planescape.

Never managed to play it, though.

>>51954289
Whip worm and dart fly also sound like good combos

Rolled 1, 3, 4 + 5 = 13 (3d6 + 5)

Been a while.

>>51954757
That's just because alignment itself isn't really a thing any more

>>51954788
The Planescape modules aren't the good shit. The setting manuals are fucking amazing.

Same with Ravenloft (and Castle Ravenloft was also a fucking railroad)

>>51954724
POTA is that to the same extent that the original TOEE was.

>>51954611
Why not just play an Aasimar Sun Soul Monk?

I'm, still pretty new to RPGs in general so I was wondering if it would be very difficult if possible to make people dance themselves to death over the course of a few days. Would some kind of general domination spell be sufficient for it or would you need something more specific?

So I made a flail out of the handle of a gardening tool, some pinky-width rope, and a sock full of rocks.

It can be thrown accurately. It doesn't hit you in the face, it doesn't spin around like a maniac, it doesn't flop everywhere. Just kinda zips off and whacks into shit. It throws straight but you have to be "aiming" and release to the right.

8/10 would crack a braincase with

>>51954887
I didn't know Pathfinder devs posted in /5eg/

>>51954886
Otto's Irresistable Dance is a classic D&D spell.

What you're looking for is Otto's Really Irresistable Dance of Death.

>>51954876
>POTA is that to the same extent that the original TOEE was.

Not even 0.1%.

POTA is yet another tired cliche of "walk around the world to try to stop the bad guise xDDD," the same exhausted garbage that has polluted RPGs for decades.

The ToEE is a site you can explore and has very interesting NPCs to boot. Its golden.

>>51954611
Honestly just play a human monk and refluff as Saiyan. No real need for complicated mechanics. Plus random Oozaru is never a good gameplay element, and not every Saiyan should be able to go Super.

>>51954901
>tfw I coulda been throwing my sockflail at the garage all night instead of getting berated by Anon but it's starting to rain

Friendly reminder that all Polearm Master users must be shot.

>>51954907
I will look into this, thank you.

>>51954940
Why's that?

>>51954917
>TOEE puts it all in one building
The only good part of original TOEE is "Village of Hommlet"

>>51954886
There's nothing in standard D&D that would allow you to accomplish that with a single spell.

Are you a player or a DM? If you're a player, this is not really an option. If you're a DM, wing it, but I would advise not using it on your players (stick to weaker effects more in line with standard abilities for that).

>>51954966
>Geas / Quest someone to become the ultimate dance master

>>51954960
Why not?

>>51952374
I love the flail snail. It is a beautiful trap disguised as a exquisitely lucrative treasure for a low level party (since their shell is worth 5000ish GP and can be used to make a solid magic item). What I would love to do in a home campaign is put one in a large room in a kobold controlled cave or abandoned mine, and let the party stumble upon it without and other enemies near by. They will kill it for the gold value it will offer, and then it will retreat into its shell and scream, alerting the whole cave to the party's presence.

Rolled 2 (1d12)

>>51954262
Gonna use my post number for the d8 unless it's a 9 or a 0.

>>51954989
Because I love halberds.

>>51954962
>if you misquote people you can win arguments

Abazing ;DDD

>>51954788
People love Planescape because it's a treasure trove of cool ideas. I've never played Torment.

>>51955003
If you love halberds because of that feat, you must be shot, too.

If not, great taste.

>>51955030
Glaives have always been the superior 2h weapon.

Also honestly I like the mastery feats as a way to do weapon specialization.

>>51954997
Spear moth? A bit boring. Basically just a giant wasp.

>>51954966
I'm a player and it doesn't have to be a single spell as long as the ultimate result is exhausting a person by forcing them to dance for long periods of time, possibly denying them rest at night. Honestly I doubt I'll ever be in a situation to do it but I think as a concept it's an interesting way of killing people.

>>51955047
>>51954966
>*Exhausting them to the point of death

>>51954982
Can't give suicidal commands, although they'll at least dance to exhaustion or suffer the punishment.

>>51955042
The mastery feats are fine, except for that one. There's literally no reason not to take it. That's why it's shit.

>>51955081
Don't reach weapons have the inherent limiter that they're as useless as bows in the dead zone? Even with mastery I mean?

>>51955114
Not in this edition.

>>51955114
Lances have that problem, polearms do not.

>>51955114
Nope, that's just the lance

>>51955114
In 3.5e, maybe. That only applies to lances in 5e, which have other special properties that make up for that.

Thanks for the feedback!

>>51954833
>Spelling errors
My bad. I like that detail about Oozaru reflecting the original form. I haven't actually watched DBZ, so my knowledge of it is limited.

>>51954881
That's mostly what it's based on, with some orc flavour thrown in.

>>51954919
How should Super be earned? The race feels incomplete without it, but that's just my opinion.

>>51955114
>As useless as bows
Bows have no minimum range either, besides any ranged attacks a character makes being at disadvantage if a hostile creature is within 5 feet of them.

>>51955047
It's not a thing, sorry. In 5e Spells that force you to make a save or die are rare to say the least. This is a good thing.

>>51954757
>Good
Be selfless
>Evil
Be selfish
>Neutral
Be inbetween
>Lawful
Like social structure and tradition
>Chaotic
Dislike social structure and tradition

So, slavery is lawful evil because you're being selfless (gaining from a slave and giving them the bare minimum for the fruits of their labour) and thus evil, and also lawful in some societies because often it might be the norm, the tradition and it enforces a hierarchy.

So, no reason it can't really be a thing.

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>>51955044
>Spear moth

>>51955198
Not even casting the same spell again over several days to exhaust them to the point of death, with a chance to save against it each time? It's inefficient and probably a very poor way to go about it but the idea just seems kinda cool. If it's really not possible under the rules though then I guess that's the end of that idea.

I find it interesting in that, as far as I can tell, in When Armies Clash, polearm feats wouldn't do anything (other than the bonus attack), but a non solo unit armed with polearms gets +1 attack. So they're great for flunkies to use, which seems about right.

>>51955212
>>Good
>Be selfless

rtfm

>>Evil
>Be selfish

rtfm

>Be inbetween

rtfm

>Like social structure and tradition

rtfm

>Dislike social structure and tradition

rtfm

>So, slavery is lawful evil

A fine houserule, but it fits with Lawful Good (do good as society views it, in a society comfy with slavery), CG (do good as defined by your conscience), LN (follow your code), and CN (follow your whims).

rtfm

>>51954940
>>51955081
Polearm master, the feat that allows for a reaction attack against anyone moving up to you and a bonus action attack for a D4 + Str correct? Sure it's pretty solid but unless you go human it can definitely slow down your ability score improvement. Especially if you get the other feats that's synergies with it. It is an extremely potent feat but it's not that cancerous.

>>51955234
>Not even casting the same spell again over several days to exhaust them to the point of death, with a chance to save against it each time?
Yeah you could in theory but the spell in question is sixth level, has a duration of one minute, is concentration, so the caster couldn't sleep. Furthermore the person would get a saving throw every round. A 20 automatically succeeds, regardless of the DC.

>>51953550
Link?

>>51955268
Take your own advice

What spells should I snag for my bard? I'm about to get some 5th level spells and there's a few that a few calling my name, specifically Legend Lore and Raise Dead (we frequently have to reroll characters).

Our current quest is to sail across a newly formed sea and collect these ancient bells which hold extremely powerful magic. We have no idea why we want to collect them, so I'm hoping that legend lore would shine a light on that.

What other spells are a must have for a college of lore bard?

>>51955323
Banishing Smite

>>51955319
>Take your own advice

I did, read the descriptions of the alignments sometime. CG slavery is fine, so long as your conscience doesn't bother you. LG slavery is fine, so long as society is okay with it. Etc.

>>51955360
End yourself

>>51955360
Not how it works with most traditionally evil acts, but I can totally see it with slaves, seeing as peasants are basically slaves anyways.

>>51955306
So if the caster slept in the mornings and did the casting through the night on someone who had obligations to fulfill throughout the day and was weak, like a peasant, then it might be doable?

>>51955372
5e's almost totally vestigial alignment is nothing to be mad about, relax and beat your socially acceptable half orc slave, because you're doing the right thing as expected by society.

>>51955360
>Exploiting others doesn't bother your conscience
>"Good"
Wew lad

What is the best beast to transform into for druids and why is is giant frog?

>>51955400
That should really be interpreted as "the right thing, as expected by society". It's contrasted further on with the selfishness of Evil creatures. Alignments are still what they used to be. Slavery is not and never will be "Good" and moral relativism has no place in D&D.

>>51955360
Good is not just defined by you as an island. It's defined with your relation to the world. Slavery is in no way good, it just might be acceptable in a society that prizes itself as Lawful Neutral.

Romaboos may not want to admit it, but the Roman empire was basically orcs.

>>51955421
Exactly.

LG = Society
CG = Conscience
CN = Whims
N = LOL IDK
LN = Code
LE = Still code

>>51955457
A man's gotta have a code

Why is slavery considered Evil, but the feudal system is not? Surely forcing peasants to work for you and taking most of their wealth is Evil?

>>51955385
>>51955421

instead of executing criminals or throwing them in a dungeon you instead have them work as slaves until their crime has been paid for in labor for society, and some crimes require a life sentence

How does this not fit into a LG society?

>>51955453

>Good is not just defined by you as an island.

Good is defined by your society (LG) or your conscience (CG). Remember? RTFM, that's all ya gotta do. Don't worry, just read the book.

>Slavery is in no way good, it just might be acceptable in a society that prizes itself as Lawful Neutral.

>in a society that prides (?) itself as Lawful Neutral

Doing the right thing as defined by society = Lawful Good. Typically very different in modern xyz country vs ancient Rome. They had to give orcs, drow, etc. a special exception as to how they weren't Lawful Good, by way of explaining they have reduced free will due to influence of evil gods.

>>51955453
Aren't orcs chaotic?

>>51955167
Super Saiyan can be earned by being pure of heart and having basically a strong emotional breakdown. I think you should put it into a Saiyan power -feature or something, to be the capstone of it at 15 or so. Give some spiritual release before that, such as gaining the power of flight, and you can actually just make the super saiyan part even stronger in turn.

You can make Zenkai a thing. It means when they fall in battle and recover, they gain a power boost. In the series, the boost is permanent, but you can make it just last until the combat ends. This should be cumulative.

Also, a note. If you want Oozaru to be a thing, there should be a charisma check whether you go rampage or have it under control. If you succeed in the charisma check enough times, you automatically succeed in it on future times.

Did I have anything else... I haven't actually followed the series since the manga's run ended where I live, so I don't remember shit. Maybe I should reread it at some point.

>>51955457
CG =/= conscience. Your conscience can be shitty.
Sociopaths don't feel bad when they murder people. Doesn't make them good.
CG == being selfless but not wanting to be controlled

LG =/= society. Society can be chaotic and shitty, and it can support evil deeds.
LG == benefit of others through order.

>>51955474
Say what you will about the tenets of National Socialism, dude, at least it's an ethos.

>>51955447
>Alignments are still what they used to be.

They really aren't, especially because "what they used to be" by 3aboo scum means "objective horseshit," whereas in say 2e good had no absolute values and was socially defined, not to mention 1e has Word of God explaining that good is subjective, that good can resort to slavery, killing kids of evil races, etc.

>>51955508
Moving the goalposts. When "slavery" is brought up the assumption is that we're referring to humans owning humans, not humans paying off debts to humans/society.
The system you describe can be LG. Proper slavery is not.

>>51955503
Feudal system is evil AF.

>>51955510
>Good is defined by your society (LG) or your conscience (CG).
No, it fucking doesn't.

>>51955510
God, just shut up, this is babby's first alignment discussion and you're on the wrong side of it.

>>51954762
>The simple fact of the matter is that the new adventure content has been much more successful than past editions' splat.

[citation required]

> Better received, less alienation of new players over time.

Because adventures are easy as fuck to write. You hardly even have to playtest them. Wizards of the Coast are lazy-ass fucks.

>>51955510
No amount of handwringing will make slaves in mines or latifundias good.

>>51955519
>CG =/= conscience. Your conscience can be shitty.

Nope. "Chaotic good (CG) creatures act as their conscience directs, with little regard for what others expect." D&D's CG elves and nixies were inspired by their Three Heart and Three Lions counterparts, which were definitely slave takers, and deities like Zeus, who of course raped freely and with great gusto.

>CG == being selfless

Nopers

>LG =/= society. Society can be chaotic and shitty, and it can support evil deeds.

Nope. "Lawful good (LG) creatures can be counted on to do the right thing as expected by society."

Read da book, its good for you, read da book, its not so hard, read da book, before you open your trap, read da book, instead of giving some yap.

>>51955553
>No, it fucking doesn't.

Yes, it does. Wrong thread? This is 5e, friendo.

>>51955553
If the feudal system is Evil, why do they exist? Surely all the Paladins and other do-gooders can just wipe them out, or at least install a better ruler?

>>51955395
You would have to have 24 hours * 60 minutes = 1440 castings of a 6th spell between all participating casters. A 19th level spellcasters has 2 at max. So you'd need 720 casters minimum. And that's assuming the person in never makes a save.

>>51955553
a slave is a slave no matter how he came to be one.

Slavery is not good or evil.

the morality lies in how the slaves are acquired and treated

>>51955268
>Slavery can be chaotic good
You are legitimately retarded.

>>51955599
Only one of two questions are relevant to whether slavery is good in 5e.

>Lawful Good

Does society approve of it as the right thing? Congratulations, its Lawful Good. Masters, beat your slaves gently.

OR

>Chaotic Good
Does your conscience approve of it? Well I have taken it up with my conscience and its quite comfortable with it, so yes.

>>51955567
Read da book friend

>>51954762
>broken-ass dagger-throwing fighters
Darts were core

>>51954762
>how they hate The Book of Elves
Honestly the big issue besides the tone was that it and Book of Dwarves made it really obvious they were struggling to justify some of the racial limits; Herbalist is basically a druid without shapeshift or the bullshit xp table; Bladesinger should have been a bard kit, Dwarven Chanter was basically a way to give dwarves some sort of bard already.

Entirely my own distinctions here, but I've never really held with boiling “Good” and “Evil”, as alignments, down to “Selfless” and “Selfish”. Good people are entirely capable of being selfish, and Evil people are entirely capable of having a selfless motive. These descriptors just turn being selfish into a hard synonym for evil, which doesn't leave much room for middle ground.

I prefer to identify Good and Evil as the difference between Empathy and Apathy toward others. In this system, Good is defined as helping and caring for others out of a desire to prevent/minimise harm, while Evil is numb to or uncaring of the harm they cause to others. Neutral folks are distinct from Good in that they don't actively seek to alleviate harm, but distinct from Evil in that they would still care if undue harm occurred (“More likely to appreciate Good neighbours than Evil ones”).

All are capable of being selfish, but only one wouldn't care if their methods bothered you.

In my mind, Law and Chaos describe one's ideal methods and attitude. Law is about The Way Things Are Done, while Chaos is about fighting expectations/the status quo. Neutrals don't really care about how it's done so much as GETTING it done. That's just how I always play it, though.

>>51955628
Why do you think the sword coast is all independent city states under democratic rule?

>>51955628
>Surely all the Paladins and other do-gooders can just wipe them out, or at least install a better ruler?
Because there are no great men and society as a whole tends to lean TN.

>>51955656
If your conscience approves of slavery then you approve of subjugating other by force, which is the textbook definition of chaotic evil in every edition. Thank you for playing.

>>51955657

Gygax specifically approved elven druids for double and triple class, I don't see a problem there.

2e Bladesinger is overrated as hell, I played one for 20 levels.

>>51955630
I was suggesting only casting through the night when they would normally be trying to sleep based on the assumption that they would have obligations they had to fulfill throughout the rest of the day, preventing their sleep, but it still seems like one person couldn't do it. Thanks for your time.

Slavery in the form of indentured servitude or fair pay for crimes *can* be lawful good. But it can't be chaotic good.
CG cares about being able to follow their hearts and pursue their goals, to pursue their dreams and follow their conscience. They would dearly hate being imprisoned and forced to work under another. Part of being good is treating others the right way, and if they wouldn't see that fate enforced upon themselves but commit others to it, that's evil.

>>51955503
Oppressing the peasants is evil. Collecting sub-oppression taxes is neutral. Protecting the peasants, being a wise and just ruler etc is good.

Forms of governments don't have alignment (at least not on good vs evil scale), particular executions do.

>>51955606
Jesus Christ
The 5e PHB has the shortest ever description of alignments, but it shouldn't have to be written down that some things can never be considered "good" no matter what society or individuals think. Your conscience can't make murder "good." Society can't make genocide "good."
I read more D&D books than you, and I know this because you think the edition that gutted alignment descriptions is the final authority.
Let's go back a couple of editions.
LG: "Characters of this alignment believe that an orderly, strong society with a well-organized government can work to make life better for the majority of the people...lawful good characters strive for those things that will bring the greatest benefit to the most people and cause the least harm."
CG: "Chaotic good characters are strong individualists marked by a streak of kindness and benevolence. They believe in all the virtues of goodness and right, but they have little use for laws and regulations."

>>51955626
Mealrs didn't invent the alignment system and just because the definitions he wrote are shorter than past ones doesn't mean they negate them.

>>51955687
>Chaotic evil (CE) creatures act with arbitrary
violence, spurred by their greed, hatred, or bloodlust.

Nah. Besides a brief explosion of disgusting "objective" morality, slavery's always been kosher with CG. Zeus is still CG, in all his rape happy glory. Slavery is even kosher in FR for the good gods of Mulhorand, #1 source of aasimar.

>>51955692
>2e Bladesinger is overrated as hell, I played one for 20 levels.

Huh. I remember looking at that class and thinking to myself "I'm not sure what the fuss is all about."

>>51955718
>But it can't be chaotic good.

Is my conscience cool with it? Hmm.. yes. CG it is.

>Part of being good is treating others the right way

Not in 5e, its just conscience or society. Both of which can be okay with slavery. Alignment is way simpler, and mostly vestigial, in 5e.

>>51955628
Because D&D uses the conceit of medieval Europe so we ignore feudalism's shittiness in the same way that we ignore the lack of sanitation.

>>51955718
Fucking this.

>>51955656
>Read da book friend
Just fuck off with your shitty autistic troll logic "RAW" interpretation bullshit and take your moral relativism with you.

"lol my Paladin thinks raping orphans to death is good so you see" just fuck off

>>51955773
5e. Did. Not. Change. The. Alignment. System. It. Just. Wrote. It. Overly. Concisely.
Please, PLEASE get that into your head.

>>51955790
No no, Anon's argument is "my Paladin comes from a society where raping orphans to death is good," because otherwise he'd be describing CG. :^)

>>51955773
Not a conscience then, that's just a whim. A conscience would direct a creature otherwise. Congrats on sociopathy, I hope you're logical enough to approximate a conscience so as to operate in society.

>>51955741
>Your conscience can't make murder "good."
You travel back in time and murder the BBEG before he falls to madness and destroys the kingdom

>Society can't make genocide "good."
Orcs are all inherently evil, killing them all would prevent a great amount of evil acts, and is thus a good action

>>51955741
>Your conscience can't make murder "good."

Presumably not, though murder is "unlawful killings," and I'm not sure how much CG cares over whether their behavior is legal or illegal.

>I read more D&D books than you

Nope.

>and I know this because you think the edition that gutted alignment descriptions is the final authority.

I know I read more D&D books than you because I know how D&D alignments change, often wildly, from edition to edition.

Remember, the edition that introduced CG introduced slavery as a thing CG people do (see: nixies).

If you want to mix up alignment descriptions between editions, that is completely acceptable, but in general, its healthy to assume 5e discussions pertain to 5e alone.

>he wrote are shorter than past ones doesn't mean they negate them.

5e rules definitely, 100% negate past rules. This isn't even a question or up for the teeniest of debate.

>>51955748
It's wildly overrated as a kit but it was a multi-class kit.

Also I'm pretty sure they could cast in some armors, except if my memory on that isn't faulty, I'll note that I know no DM who disallowed Bard casting in the armors they were specifically proficient with except maybe non-elven chain.

>>51955656
That's not how Lawful Good works, even by D&D's strained notion of allignments.

RAW, no society with an opporessed slave caste can be "Good," though they are lawful since everything is orderly. Good in D&D is almost always synonymous with selflessness.

>>51955813
>5e. Did. Not. Change. The. Alignment. System. It. Just. Wrote. It. Overly. Concisely.

Every edition changes the alignment system, typically drastically. So you're wrong.

>>51955837
Time travel isn't an option so it can't be used as an argument, and you're dragging the goalposts from "Evil thing isn't evil inherently!" to "Greater good!"
>Orcs are inherently evil
Read Volo's. They're just possessed by war gods, poor lovable babies uwu

>>51955773
>My conscience is okay with the violent, brutal subjugation of my fellow man
Congratulations, you're CE. Also a psychopath.

>>51955837
>Strawmanning this hard
You damn well know that when I said "murder" I didn't mean anything remotely like that. You also know fucking well that by "genocide" I meant shit like ethnic cleansing in Africa that's not """"justified"""" by always-evil races.
Fuck off unless you engage the actual argument. Otherwise I'll assume you're trolling.

>>51955854
>5e negates past rules
Alignments in 5e literally have no rules attached to them, so this argument is bad.

>>51955877
>They're just possessed by war gods
Spelljammer ran with it pretty hard in 2e days. Space orcs were basically exiles who had forsaken Gruumsh entirely and the IEN was about as much dicks as they were.

>>51955873
>That's not how Lawful Good works

Read the book and get back to me.

>even by D&D's strained notion of allignments.

Its how it explicitly works.

>RAW, no society with an opporessed slave caste can be "Good,"

Citation needed.

>Good in D&D is almost always synonymous with selflessness.

It really isn't, that's just a meme. 1e CG for example is sublime levels of selfishness, the idea that threats to your freedom, including "laws" and "social norms" (not even oppressive or unjust ones, but them existing at all), are as bad as threats to your life.

>>51955875
5e is basically 3.5e lite. It should come as no surprise it includes the same alignment system but simplified.

Never, ever, will the alignment system work the way you think it does because as superfluous as it is now, that would render it entirely, utterly, completely meaningless to the point of why even bother describing it?

NO ONE THINKS THEY'RE EVIL YOU DONUT

>>51955877
fine, you see a vision of the future in which a man goes mad and destroys the kingdom

you murder him to alter the future and save the kingdom

>>51955884
>Congratulations, you're CE

CG. Just ask yourself, what would Zeus do? He's Chaotic Good.

>>51955914
>Its how it explicitly works.
It doesn't. It's a vague sentence allowing for multiple interpretations and you just went with the one that makes for the best bait and you know it.

>>51953370
>Seeker Warlock
I usually play warlocks and I have no idea what this is..

>>51955934
Strike you with a lightning bolt and go find a nymph to bed.

More importantly this is an irrelevant question. Zeus is not Aristotle.

>>51955904
Spelljammer was bro-tier in the best way.

>>51955914
Read >>51955917 and then read it again.
If "goodness" allows for murdering children in the street than it's not "goodness" by any stretch of the imagination and you might as well stop using the alignment system altogether. Which I suggest you do because you obviously don't give a shit about it.

>>51955934
Zeus is not CG, no matter what the PHB says about him. In all of Greek mythology, maybe 2 gods were "good."

>>51955928
Having knowledge that someone is going to commit great acts of evil and killing them isn't the MOST good way to handle things (that would be steering them back to the right path) but is indeed a good act.
And is totally unrelated to slavery and conscience.

>>51955928
desu I would consider this a firmly neutral act unless you tried to find a way other than murder to solve the problem first

>>51955899
>Alignments in 5e literally have no rules attached to them, so this argument is bad.

Well, no more than in 3e (its a prereq for certain subclasses).

Wanna return to, say, 2e, in which alignment was both culturally relative (ie in Fake Egypt, slavery is okay for good chars but grave robbery is the blackest of evils) AND subjects you to level drains if you switch alignment?

>>51955741
Actually, for a long time murdering all the goblins, orcs ect was considered good, and genocide.
You could argue that they don't count as people, just murder machines, since Always Chaotic Evil is a thing.
Of course, that is very setting dependent. But saying "Slavery will always be evil regardless of the setting", "Genocide will always be evil regardless of the setting" is silly. I mean, that wasn't even true in our own history.

>>51955951
Unearthed Arcana

>>51955961
It's really obvious that the alignments for greek gods were given to fit the wheel of planes and not the opposite. Otherwise Hades would be LN, for one.

File: IGFlf.gif (886KB, 175x144px) Image search: [Google]

886KB, 175x144px

>>51955899
>in a 5e thread
>complains about morality relevant to 5e

last I checked Africa was not an offical 5e setting

if you want to talk real world politics fuck off to /int/ or /pol/

this is /tg/ and we talk about traditional games and their settings here.