EDH/Commander general

>>51950347
>Who's your favorite hatebear?
Does Rest in Peace count?

>>51950376
That's pretty much Anafenza so sure

>>51950347
>Favorite Hatebear
Nominating 8.5 Tails as an honorary hatebear for services rendered. Saved important bears and pushed guys carrying Swords and Jittes through more times than I can count.

So there's this guy in my playgroup who has 1 mana crypt, and he's proxied it and put it in each of his decks. Every time he casts it he takes his real copy and puts it on the battlefield while putting the proxy away. When randoms at the LGS criticize him for it he always says "I could also swap in the crypt when I want to use a different deck but that'd just waste time I could have been using to shuffle".

Yay or nay for this behaviour?

>>51950554
if he plays fast mana that isnt sol ring in edh then hes a sweaty tryhard either way

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I love all my hatebears equally so I'll just pick the one that leads my hatebears deck.

>>51950554

Seems fine by me. No point in spending a fuckload of money on multiple copies of one expensive card.

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>>51950554

I see nothing wrong with it. He has the original and he even takes the effort to use it instead of just saying he has it.

>>51950347

pic related

>>51950554
Seems fine.

>>51950554
Dude's honestly just a lazy fuck. Then again, I don't proxy shit so I'm in the nay.

>Favourite Hatebear
I think it's Thalia.

>>51950579
He pulled it during a draft and just calls it his second sol ring. Besides that his decks aren't really competitive.

>>51950554
Yay. If the mana crypt is important enough to his decks that he'd take the time to switch it in every time, then I'd much rather he run a proxy and not waste everyone's time. He owns the card, he puts the actual card on the battlefield when he plays it, it all seems fine.

Think of it like people running those checklists for flipcards and reaching for their deckbox to put the proper card in play when necessary.

>>51950554
I'm fine with it, because there's nothing stopping him from just pulling it out of Deck A and putting it into Deck B each time. This is effectively the exact same thing, it just saves a lot of time.

As long as his proxy is indistinguishable from other cards (IE, he can't tell "That's my mana crypt proxy" without looking at the face of the card, and it is VERY OBVIOUSLY not another card somehow) I would have absolutely no problem with it.

My opinion is biased because I do something similar.

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>>51950347
The only choice

>>51950579
I dunno man, all of gA's decks have Mana Crypt

>>51950554
He makes an effort and actually has the card. Better than the dude who has 4 baby Jace checklist cards in his deck but only owns 1 copy.

>>51950554
lazy, but that is fine by me.

>>51950554
Follow-up question. What would you say if someone wrote "Gaea's Cradle" in sharpie on a basic forest and when confronted about it, pulled it out of his elves deck to show he owns it?

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>>51950486
Except RiP is good. Anafenza only hits reanimator, RiP hoses all graveyard strategies.
>>51950347
I dunno if this counts but it sure is one of my favorites

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My favorite hatebear costs 3 mana, is a 2/1, has flying and is actually not a bear at all.

>>51950651
Jesus I've never seen him before
How much would you get targeted if you made him your general?

>>51950700
its no different.

Honestly at most you could ask them to put it in their deck, and make them spend the 30 seconds or so doing it.

>>51950700
I think that'd be fine, too. "Proxying a card that I own, but is in another deck and bonkers expensive" is fine.

>>51950727
A lot.

>>51950711
I have a foil of that and it's so fucking gorgeous

>>51950742
The difference is I wouldn't take it out of my elves deck. It's already in SP condition, I'm trying to not cause any further deterioration to the card by switching sleeves all the time.

>>51950807
Put it in a toploader and print proxies for every deck you use it in.

EVERYBODY POST EM

I DONT HAVE MY OWN IMAGE MADE YET SORRY

>Krenko, mob boss
my baby. First EDH deck I ever made, never been dismantled, probably never will be. Exactly what youd expect from a krenko deck

>Momir Vig, simic visionary
Lots of weenies that are both U and G so i can search as many times as possible. Not very degenerate, commander can really switch between him, Ezuri, Edric, Rashmi, or Thrasios/Kydele whenever

>Prossh, Skyraider of Kher
Dragon tribal. Very durdly but can win out of nowhere, thanks to commander damage

>Kaseto, Orochi Archmage
Mix of snake tribal and voltron, the snake half being super shitty and the voltron half being way too fast sometimes. Probably my least played deck right now

>Polukranos, World Eater
Lots and lots and lots of ramp, and every monogreen hydra I could get my hands on. Simple and easy to play, my main loaner deck for new players, as well as krenko.

>>51950831
>Show up to a legacy GP
"No it's cool I have the real thing in a toploader"

>>51950807
>deterioration

This is why I don't give a flying fuck about card value.

I enjoy playing to have fun with my friends, not carding about the value of cardboard and ink.

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>>51950851
Ghave and Sek'Kuar will be here in just a few days, so they've moved up to the 'built' folder.

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>MMXVII
>Still no Gix Commander

>>51950854
Well you need to take the toploader with you. Also, if you have 4 copies in a deck you do need 4 real copies too.

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>>51950851
>>51950921
And here's the Works in Progress.

>>51950934
You're missing the point.

If you showed up to a sanctioned event with 'proxies' in your deck, and said "No it's okay, I have the real things in my binder/other deck/a toploader", you would get a Game Loss.

>>51950727
It naturally depends on the power level of your meta, but he honestly doesn't have that big of a target on his head. Max you should be taking like 10 damage from him over the course of a game, and you can stop making land drops at any time if you are in danger.

Played with a guy that ran him before, ran him and used lots of symmetrical damage effects trying to make the game quicker. Worked pretty well and he won a few games, but zozu itself isn't the problem or how he could win.

He is pretty funny with basilisk collar though.

>>51950851
From nicest to dickest

>Ephara Flash
Casual shitdeck, just for fun, not quite sure if it's control or tokens or what. Very unfocused.

>Anafenza Hatebears
Hatebears in EDH. Why not.

>Maelstrom Wanderer, Edric
Pure cancer, both of them.

>Aurelia MLD
Mass land destruction makes my pee pee go all stiffy

>Grenzo Value/Combo
Combos with anything

>Daretti
How many jokulhaups and jokulhaups-like effects can one person run in a casual format?

>>51950976
And that's why you shouldn't do this in a sanctioned EDH event. :^)

>>51951069
First,

>Sanctioned EDH event
Not a thing.

Second, "if you have 4 copies in a deck" clearly excludes Commander.

>>51951132
>>Sanctioned EDH event
>Not a thing.
That's the joke.

>>51950851
>Korlash, Heir to Black Blade
Just the best Black cards I had lying around. Mostly just board wipe and play big creartures

>Maelstrom Wanderer
Not as gay as it sounds

>Mishra
Work in progress, not really efficient yet

>Kamahl, Fist of Krosa
Bear Tribal. Sucks, but is super fun

>Gwafa Hazid
YO, I HEARD YOU LIKED PILLOWS SO WE PUT PILLOWS IN YOUR PILLOWS.

>>51951182
>Bear Tribal
BOY DO I HAVE THE DECK FOR YOU

>>51950976
We're talking about edh you retard, nobody's advocating showing up at the protour with proxies.>>51950990

>>51951262
Right, that's what it started as- and I'm fine with using a 'proxy' of a card you own during EDH to save time.

If you look, I was specifically calling out >>51950934
for saying "if you have 4 copies in a deck you do need 4 real copies too", which made it seem like he thought you could do that at an actual, sanctioned event.

>>51950851
Fine
>Erebos Control
How many mass removal can you fit in a black deck? let's find out! my favorite deck because I'm an asshole and I love making everyone feel miserable for 4 hours. I also removed every combos from it for extra suffering.

>WB Daxos Enchantments
Pretty obvious deck. That lack of ramp annoys me to no hand and it's probably my least played deck.

>Pia and Kiran Nalaar/Slobad/Daretti Artifacts
A mono-red artifact deck while we're waiting for that fucking UR artificer. Pretty straightforward. Wincon mostly is recurring Spine of Ish Sah multiple time per turns until you destroy everything on the board.

>BR Wort Goblins
A deck I built for my girlfriend, which still is her obvious go-to when we play. Bunch of Goblins, half aggro, half-midrange, Surprisingly effective, since it goes from 0 to 11 in pretty fast.

>Wydwen the Biting Gale Faeries
A fearie deck I also built for my girlfriend, but it's pretty boring. I'm contemplating removing the faerie theme and just going straight up Control with bunch of removal from black and bunch of counterspells from blue with Wydwen as a wincon.

>Meren Graveyard
Typical Meren deck. almost Out-of-the-box. Still pretty fun.

>>51951195
I'm all ears

>>51951457
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/v-a-n-i-l-l-a-i-c-e/

>>51950554
He's a cunt, and don't listen to the /tg/ apologists. You can proxy any card under $10 without hassle as many times as you like, as long as you own the card. You should limit your proxies that are $20-$50 to decks that absolutely need them.

Running a manacrypt in every deck while you only have one copy is a prick job. I get it, he has the card, blah blah blah, only a complete dick needs a card that expensive in every deck, unless you're playing legacy/vintage-lite and everyone is running mana crypt.

>>51951512
So you tell this guy he can no longer run proxies. He sits down to play, finds the deck that had the Mana Crypt in it, and switches it into the deck he's going to play tonight. Do you still complain about this? Do you refuse to play with him?

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>>51950347
Thalia guardian of thraben. Fuck your shit, she comes in turn 2 when she's the commander

>>51951512
Alright, so you tell him he can't proxy a single 50 dollar card, while 3/4s of your deck is proxied because the cards are all 10 dollars or less.

He then takes the Crypt out of the toploader and puts it into the sleeve that used to have a proxy, and does this every game. He still has the ability to play Mana Crypt in all of his decks, it just takes extra time to facilitate.

Are you gonna throw a fit about that and tell him he's "not allowed" to do that?

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>>51951512
Cry more faggot
>>51950554
It's ok. Fuck buying multiple copies of expensive cards

>>51951654
What I do is all of my decks have some number of empty sleeves in the box with them. When I want to play that deck, I pick up the box that has 1 copy of every Shock, Fetch, and Dual, as well as one Mana Crypt, all in Perfect Fits. I take the appropriate lands out of that loadout box, and slide them into the appropriate sleeves for the deck.

>>51951581
Not even a little bit. The tedium and inevitable card damage are by-products of his dickitry, and I would tell him as much. If he refuses to swap the proxy for whatever reason, he needs to run something else.

Why? Fun. I don't care what you run, as long as you're using the actual cardboard. If you're running something as gamebreaking and stupid as manacrypt in every deck, because you can and own a single copy, then clearly your a dick, unless your playgroup has manacrypt as the expectation.

>>51951581
He can run proxies, just not expensive retarded proxies like mana crypt in each of the decks he runs. I'd let him get away with one or two proxies, but it depends on the degree of bullshit he's pulling.

>>51951623
>I'm a contrarian who fundamentally misrepresents arguments on the internet because I lack basic reading comprehension
He can swap it if he wants, I literally don't care, but to assume 3/4ths of a deck are proxies is egregious and fundamentally opposed to the idea of running proxies in the first place, price point or not. Reasonable limits anon, put your hyperbole elsewhere.

>>51951654
I think you're on the wrong board friend. Smug pokemon pictures have their own dedicated board. I bet you got banned for pirating whatever that pokemon game was that got leaked.

What's the once thing that other players do that annoy you?

>>51951727
put cyclonic rift into their decks

>>51951722
You literally said that you're fine letting someone proxy any cards they want for as long as they want, as long as it's under 10 dollars.

By YOUR statement, you would allow someone to proxy their entire fucking deck if each individual card was under 10 dollars, but you wouldn't let someone proxy a card THEY ACTUALLY OWN because it doesn't meet your personal bullshit metrics.

>>51951727
Oh, plenty.

>Not paying attention to the game, and then wanting to respond to something that happened ten minutes ago
>Making legal but stupid plays and then wanting a takeback, repeatedly, every game
>Sore losers
>Sore winners

>>51951722
So you're upset with the mana crypt more than you are with the act of proxying. I get that. It's a broken card and I wish I didn't have to play against it. I feel the same way about sol ring. But I think that's a lousy argument bring when the subject at hand is proxying. Would you feel the same way if the card was some shit like Doubling Season instead of Mana Crypt?

>>51951453
Can you post your Erebos list?

>>51951776
>Sore winners
what

>>51950711
That's such a bastard card. I love it.

>>51951819
People that are insufferable assholes when they win.

Like, I'm fine with losing a game. No problem at all, I'll do my best to suppress any saltiness about the game- let's shuffle up for another. But if you're being a dick about things (IE "GOD I can't believe you let me assemble that combo! You're so stupid!"), then fuck you.

>>51951762
>objective standards for a children's card game
Look, I guess in theory you could, but it would take a heck of a lot more effort than it would to actually use the cards. The spirit of the statement is so that you don't need to buy 10 format staples, like sol ring or swords to plowshares, for every deck you run. If you have 10 blue decks, but only 3 copies of gitaxian probe, you shouldn't have to buy 7 more if you want to run them, regardless of how broken it is, because it's a card that's accessible to anyone. Mana crypt is not accessible to everyone and shouldn't be proxied to the same extent. That shit costs more than some decks I run.

>>51951782
>doubling season
To be fair, that's another card that would be a sticking point. I guess the issue is cards that are disproportionately powerful should be run in actual cardboard, if you want to run them at all. Proxying in general is a tough subject, but I understand proxing staples that you're going to use in every deck simply to save time. I don't understand proxing gamebreaking nonsense so you can shit on your friends at your flgs. If you want to run 4 mana crypts, buy them and run them. Otherwise, just play it in one deck and be happy, unless the expectation is that everyone is running mana crypt.

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>>51951722
Here's another (You). I hope you liked my pokemon reaction image, I put a lot of effort choosing it. Fuck buying playsets of cards that are expensive. I'll use that money for food, bills, etc

>>51951874
>That shit costs more than some decks I run
What I'm reading here is "I can't afford one so you shouldn't be able to use it".

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>>51951887
And I'll call you a dick, then refuse to play with your proxied FoW or what have you.

If you need money for food and bills, buying a single mana crypt is retarded in the first place.

>>51951920
Cool, and we'll tell you to fuck off with your mile-long list of extra 'rules' about what is and is not permitted in a game with you, ninety percent of which boil down to "don't play cards I don't own".

>>51951727
>On Phones
>Mana rocks with lands
>Messy board
I always try to stay level even when my opponent is sperging out or gloating, but some things really push me.

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>>51951874
Who's to be the judge of what is or isn't gamebreaking nonsense? Even the rules committee can't get this right.

>>51951722
>The tedium
Lol, it's just as tedious for you, you have to wait for him to do all this stuff, and the alternative is that he could just be playing a deck you hate to play against all night.

>and inevitable card damage are by-products of his dickitry

He could be the guy that quadruple sleeves. Then you are the one that has to wait forever every time he shuffles after cracking a fetch.

There are no drawbacks specific to the man proxying. What is good for him is also good for the group.

>>51951918
Other than the entire part afterwards that literally said:
>" I guess the issue is cards that are disproportionately powerful should be run in actual cardboard, if you want to run them at all."

>>51951935
Wrong. It's actually "don't play with cards I don't own, and other people wouldn't reasonably own, unless you own the cardboard and are using it in that deck."

Is switching sleeves really that tough?

>>51951963
Is letting people use proxies really that tough?

>>51951963
>You're not allowed to proxy a card unless I deem it 'weak enough'

You are not the High King of what people can and cannot do. If you don't wanna play with someone who's trying to save a little time by proxying a card -they fucking own- but you're okay with someone proxying their entire deck, that's your prerogative, but don't be surprised when people ignore you and tell you to fuck off with your bullshit rules that exist only to force YOUR budget onto other people.

>>51951946
Mana crypt is disproportionately powerful, hence the price tag.

I guess sol ring is as well, but since it's at a lower price point, you could reasonably throw $5 at it and acquire one if you want to. It's all about intent and accessibility.

>>51951874
>Doubling Season
>Gamebreaking nonsense
I get the feeling that your group's banlist consists of "every card that has ever beaten you"

>>51952008
The price tag is a mixture of "is very powerful" and "is scarce".

Sol Ring is weaker than Mana Crypt, but still very strong. Does it cost less than a dollar because it's so much weaker? No, it costs less than a dollar because it's very available.

>>51951963
>Is switching sleeves really that tough?

Please read
>>51951949
It's a hassle for the whole group, not just the guy.

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>>51952008
>Mana crypt is disproportionately powerful, hence the price tag.
Sol Ring is disproportionately powerful, that has nothing to do with the price tag.

>>51950727
A shitload. I played against a Zo-Zu MLD deck once and it drew so much hate.

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>>51951727
>Player tries to do something
>Forgets I have something on the board to prevent and/or soften the blow
>"Oh, well never mind then"

>>51952048
I'd make a point of it every fucking time, too.

"I'd like to remind everyone here that we would already be playing Magic if it weren't for Anon's insistence that I swap my cards between decks every single time."

>>51952002
>>You're not allowed to proxy a card unless I deem it 'weak enough'
Wrong. You're not allowed to proxy a card like that unless it's the group's expectation that everyone is to use mana crypt, and you only own one.

>>51951995
Not really, I don't care about most proxies, but proxying an expensive card into every deck to wave your dick around is clearly and objectively a dick move, unless it's expected that you should be running it.

>>51952024
Doubling season is gamebreaking nonsense. Ult-ing planeswalkers the turn they come out is retarded. That being said, feel free to run it if you own it, that's part of fun. Don't proxy it into every single deck you own just to show off.

>>51952050
Please read the entire post if you're going to green text.

>>51952040
This man gets it. If a card is accessible and powerful, feel free to proxy it. If it is not accessible and powerful, you're a dick if you proxy it into every deck, unless it's the group's expectation that you need to run it to have fun.

>>51952050
Yeah, but you're not seeing the key difference!

Sol Ring is in his budget, so it's a fair card. Mana Crypt isn't in his budget, so it's disproportionately powerful, unfair bullshit.

>>51952089
I'm "allowed" to proxy whatever I fucking want, because you're not the boss of me.

>>51952089
>If a card is accessible and powerful, feel free to proxy it
Why the fuck would I need to proxy a 50 cent card? If I want to run Sol Ring in all my decks, I can go buy ten copies for the price of a McDonald's lunch. The issue is that my options for running Mana Crypt in all my decks is to either drop several hundred dollars, proxy it because I own one, or swap the one card between decks every single game. Proxying the expensive card you own is the situation that makes sense, because "go buy more" isn't a feasible solution.

You're doing an insane amount of mental gymnastics to justify "Nobody should have cards I can't afford/don't like".

>>51952101
shut up kid i fucked youre mom call me dad and go to your room

i know you masturbate to mana crypt proxies you deviant little shit

>>51952078

That's why you don't stop them from TRYING to do something, and instead let them try, and then describing the softened/nullified effect it has.

>>51952128
I have no problem with people proxying cards if they own a copy.

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>>51952101
>this guy
Come on anon, read your post. You can proxy whatever you want, doesn't mean you aren't a dick.

>>51952091
Objectively wrong. Like I've literally said a million times, you can run whatever you want at whatever budget you want, assuming you have the card. If you must proxy a card into every deck, don't pick mana crypt.

>>51952162
Is that why you've been repeatedly throwing a fit about someone proxying a Mana Crypt that they FUCKING OWN so they don't have to swap it between decks every game?

Either you're (poorly) lying because you realize how stupid your stance is, or you've been arguing against something nobody was FOR in the first place because of your shit reading comprehension

>>51952154
Here's an exact situation

>Opponent cast wrath of God
>I use Soul of New Phyrexia's ability to make my permanents indestructible
>"Oh, well forget that"

>>51952128
Anon, if you must run mana crypt in every deck, go buy more. Why? Because it's an expensive card, and unless it's your group's expectation, you're spiking your FLGS like a complete mongoloid for self validation.

You can run whatever you want, regardless of whether I can afford it or like it. If I don't like it, and it's something on the same level as mana crypt, everyone is in their right to bitch if you're proxying it into every deck, unless it's required to play with your group. What's so hard about that?

>>51952188
I'm a different guy, dawg. I agree with you.

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>>51952089
It's ok to admit you can't afford a mana crypt. I'll go ahead and proxy my grim monolith and mox diamond while enjoying the satisfaction of eating good food and bills getting paid on time. And there's nothing you can do about it except bitch and whine in the internet, trying to shove your retarded rules down my throat.

>>51952169
And like I've literally said, you are not in charge of what people are allowed to do. You are not the Consul of Proxying. You are not the chief authority on what people are 'allowed' to proxy. I understand you have your metrics of "It has to be so cheap and accessible there's no reason to not just go buy another one, but also it can't be any card that I've arbitrarily decided is OP or gamebreaking, or that I just don't like, or that has ever been used to beat me, or that I don't personally own", but your metrics mean jack shit.

>>51952188
If they "FUCKING OWN" it, then they can swap the sleeve on it and put it in whatever deck they want, particularly if it's something expensive, dickish and powerful. You're throwing a fit because someone spends money on their hobby and has the expectation that you should do the same if you want to run turbo dickish nonsense like mana crypt.

>>51952169
>If you must proxy a card into every deck, don't pick mana crypt.
I disregard your rule and I pick Mana Crypt. If the group allows proxying, then someone proxying mana crypt is just as much in the right as the guy who just wants to proxy a bunch of shocklands or fetchlands.

I don't want people in my group proxying mana crypt, I hate that fucking card, it's a load of bullshit, but if we open the door to proxying, I'd have no ground to stand on to forbid this card because my only argument would be "I don't like it and you playing it hurts my fee-fees." Kind of like what you're basically saying in this thread.

Unless of course the groupe has some kind of budget restrictions on proxying but those can be sort of bullshit as well.

>>51952089
>but proxying an expensive card into every deck to wave your dick around is clearly and objectively a dick move
you sound like a jealous poorfag

>>51952207
What's "hard" about it is that there's literally nothing stopping me from just taking the Mana Crypt out of Deck A and putting it into Deck B. If I own one Mana Crypt, I can play it in every deck I own, whether I'm proxying it in 9 decks, or just moving it between each deck each time.

Proxying it in those decks and putting the real thing on the board (like you do with checklist cards) is just a way to facilitate exactly that, but save time. All you're doing by screeching "NO NO NO NO YOU'RE NOT ALLOWED TO PROXY THAT BECAUSE I SAID SO" is wasting everyone's time by making me unsleeve it from Deck A and resleeve it for Deck B. You're not stopping me from playing my cards, you're just wasting time.

>>51952208
Then I withdraw the vitrol from my response, good sir.

>>51952239
No, actually, I'm not throwing a fit because someone spends money on their hobby.

I'm mocking YOU because you're throwing a fit about people not conforming to your personal 'rules' on what they are and are not allowed to proxy.

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>>51951727
>two players who never target each other regardless of board position
>The guy who casts an X spell and doesn't tap his mana before hand
>the guy who "taps his lands wrong" and "fixes them" a turn or two later.

>>51952243
Personally I don't like "I do not have this card, nor do I ever plan to actually acquire it because it's expensive" proxying, but I'm 100% fine with "I literally own this card in another deck" proxying.

You want to proxy 10 duals in your Slivers deck, but you own none of them? Fuck off.

You want to proxy 10 duals in your Slivers deck, because each one is in a different 2-color deck that you own? Go right ahead. I know you actually own those cards, and your 'proxying' is just saving you the hassle of swapping them in and out of decks.

>>51952219
Sure I am. You shouldn't be allowed to proxy anything. People allow proxies because it's reasonable. You have no right to proxy your most expensive card in your deck to wave your dick around, unless it's the expectation of your group to do such.

>>51952263
And you deserve to have your time wasted if you're proxying mana crypt in every deck. I understand it makes no functional difference, the issue isn't proxying as a concept, I take issue with people proxying their most expensive card into every deck in playgroups that aren't ready for it. Unfortunately, your ass is blocking your reading comprehension.

>>51952290
Depending on my mood, sometimes I will take the kid gloves off when it comes to shit like the X spell.

You cast a Blue Sun's Zenith without declaring a value of X? You cast it for 0. Learn to play correctly.

>>51952310
Yeah that makes sense, you're basically playing paper MtG with MODO levels of deckbuilding convenience that way.

I'll be honest, if I played Vintage, I'd be fine with my opponent proxying all his power as long as he can prove he owns them, just to spare everyone the card damage that comes with handling and shuffling yuor deck.

>>51952254
You're the one who can't just buy another mana crypt and is bitching about your ~right to proxy~

>>51952322
>You shouldn't be allowed to proxy anything
Which is your opinion, and you are entitled to it.

You. Are not. In charge. Of me.

I will proxy whatever I fucking want. You can choose not to play with me, that's fine, but if you keep screeching "YOU CAN'T PROXY THAT" in games where you are not playing, I will feed you your fucking teeth.

>>51952325
Sounds rules lawyery as fuck.
>tap 10 mana at EoT
>"I cast blue sun's zenith"
>"Ok it resolves, you draw 0 cards, HAHA YOU GOT PUNKED BITCH"
You very well know he wasn't casting it for 0, if that situation happens just ask them "for how much?".

>>51952346
You're the one that's sperging out and derailed the fucking thread cause you don't like what other people are doing

>>51952346
you're the one who throws an autistic fit when people proxy to save time. this is literally peak autism.

>>51951727
one: not read cards as they are played, I know it takes a while to get an encyclopedic knowledge of that stuff but come on don't make explain something over and over.
two) Shitty board politics bad threat assessment spite etc
three) lolsorandumb decks that waste peoples time
four as a continue to the above people who tank for way too fucking long

>>51952322
> I take issue with people proxying their most expensive card into every deck in playgroups that aren't ready for it
And there is

FUCKING

NOTHING

Stopping those players from just TRANSFERRING THE FUCKING CARD from one deck to another

Literally no difference, other than wasting EVERYONE's time (not just the proxier- EVERYONE)

So where's your logic there? Me proxying a Mana Crypt in my Talrand deck is a problem because the group "isn't ready for it", but if I take the card out of my Mishra deck first, it's fine? The card somehow becomes more 'fair'?

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>>51952310
i don't proxy shit because i don't like handling proxies but out of curiosity, why is it important for you to know that someone owns the card for real? i'd be bothered by a shitty proxy even if the guy owned it for real, and similarly i wouldn't be bothered if someone played a really nice proxy of something they didn't own. well, except if that card was a mishra's factory tier "it's only legal because it's expensive" card, in which case i would be upset but mostly because someone is playing a 1000 dollar card in a clown format

honestly, if you feel the need to proxy power staples across your decks while owning only 1 copy each, then i think you're trying a bit too hard to win. like, maybe you don't actually need a mana crypt to beat timmy's dragon tribal, you know?

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Alright /tg/ what do I do, build one of the decks in pic related or buy Planechase Anthology instead?

>>51952369
You sound like a child.

>>51952373
>>51952377
I think it's actually the people replying to me that have derailed the thread. Like look at this guy:

>>51952397
>>51952397

>>51952372
No no, that's a different thing. If you cast an X spell without declaring the value of X, X is assumed to be 'all the mana you have floating'. So if they tapped for 10, then that Zenith is for 7.

I mean the people who tap three Islands and say "Zenith" (or tap no lands at all) and wait to see what people's response is before they 'decide' what X is.

>>51952325
>be anon
>guy at table taps 2 black mana and says "sign in blood" and places the card on the stack
>wait 2 seconds and then yell "HAHA YOU DIDN'T NAME A TARGET IT FIZZLES NOW"
>shit my pants because i'm so fucking smart

>>51952405
>i'd be bothered by a shitty proxy even if the guy owned it for real, and similarly i wouldn't be bothered if someone played a really nice proxy of something they didn't own.
so you allow proxies depending on how good looking they are?
anon, that's simply retarded.

>>51952405
It frustrates me when people proxy cards they don't own and don't intend to own, because then you start an 'arms race' with people just proxying more and more degenerate stuff because suddenly price is no object. It's the same thing you see on Cockatrice- people just build the most degen bullshit because it costs them nothing. I also feel like proxying cards you don't plan to ever obtain is just super shitty- "I feel entitled to these cards just because I want them".

Proxying a card you -own- is just a matter of convenience.

>>51952448
>I only know how to read half a post for argumentative purposes.

>>51952446
Except that's not how the rules work. If you tap three Islands and cast a Blue Sun's Zenith, the value of X is 0. If you cast a Sign in Blood without naming a target... at absolute worst, you'd back things up and name a target. Casting Sign in Blood with no target is not a legal play; casting Blue Sun's Zenith for X=0 is.

>>51952413
>I acted like an utter moron and was called out for being an utter moron
>but they are the imbeciles for responding to my retardation
anon, there's nothing wrong with admitting defeat. grow some humbleness and accept that you are a moron.

>>51952412
Do you already have access to Planechase stuff?

If so, skip the Anthology.

If not, buy the Anthology because Planechase is fun.

>>51952448
my group doesn't proxy cards at all. we like owning the cards. that said, i wouldn't be too bothered if someone proxied an overpriced card like kaalia or an enemy fetch or something, especially if they were already struggling to keep up in our meta.

if the proxy looks good, is readable and recognizable from across the table, then i really couldn't give less of a shit whether you paid 30 bucks for it or not. i play edh to relax, not to spaz out whether someone is as invested as i am in the joke format in a childrens card game

>>51952423
I've never seen anyone do that. But technically they're allowed to say "I cast zenith" before tapping any mana. Just don't respond until they call the amount of X and/or tap their mana, and if they go "Well, are you countering?" before doing either, point out to them that they're retarded and haven't even finished casting the spell.

>>51952522
I thought they actually had to accumulate the mana before casting?

>>51952503
You're right, I'll go have a good cry then sit upside-down in the shower and shit in my own mouth. Sorry for bothering everyone.

>>51952503
>he's still replying
It's not my fault you keep ignoring half of my statements to continue to argue because, as you know from previous threads months ago, I have nothing better to do, and this is prime time trolling hour.

>>51952471
you can start an arms race with real cards as well, except in that case the guy starting the arms race will start giving the ol' "ur a poorfag" talk when you try to convince them that maybe introducing 400 dollars worth of fast mana and tutors into a casual meta is a bad idea.

so in a way, i'm more sympathetic to someone arms racing with proxies because odds are, they are new and don't know any better. but for real, if you spend 300 dollars on a gaeas cradle just so you can win more games of EDH then you are definitely some type of autismo

>>51952504
No, I started playing around Origins/BFZ so I'm still fairly new. I did play Planechase once and I thought it was quite fun, and I'd like to see how it is in Commander.

>>51952538
That's how people usually play it but you're allowed to pay for the spell after putting it on the stack. It all happens as part of casting the spell. This is why mana abilities are treated differently from instants, by the way.
http://mtg.gamepedia.com/Casting_spells

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>>51950990
>He is pretty funny with basilisk collar though.
I can see it now

>>51952423
>I mean the people who tap three Islands and say "Zenith" (or tap no lands at all) and wait to see what people's response is before they 'decide' what X is.
you aren't allowed to do that though. a spell is only cast after all its costs have been paid.

>>51952587
It's a glorious, scary mess. There's two people with full planechase decks around here and we run two planechase decks at once sometimes. Fun stuff

>>51952192
>this literally makes all cards that counter strategies fucking useless
What the fuck is wrong with these people? I cast a dread cacodemon a few weeks ago to fuck everyone up but forgot about an opponent's butcher of malakir. I was just like "oh. Fuck, I'm dumb as hell" and everything went to the yard.

>>51952607
Huh, didn't know that.

>>51952607
>allowed to pay for the spell after putting it on the stack.
not really
you're allowed to pay the mana after you annouce you are casting the spell, not before it's on the stack. the spell only goes to the stack once its casting is finished.

>>51951479
While the noncreature stuff is cool, the creatures are garbage and don't make much sense. The whole deck just seems like it revolves around Muraganda Petroglyphs. There's not that many bears either.

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>all these anons defending proxies
The fuck? Are we in bizzaro land or something? You play EDH to drink beer with friends. If you need to proxy mana crypt to have fun with your friends, go for it. If you don't, it's a universally accepted faux-pas to start an arms race with expensive, broken cards, let alone proxies of those cards in every deck.

>>51950976
You're wrong. It's a judge call, and when deck checks are done, if you have proxies, you tell the judge, and he issues you a judge-proxy.

>>51952658
Unless I'm really misunderstanding the link above
>601.2a To propose the casting of a spell, a player first moves that card (or that copy of a card) from where it is to the stack. It becomes the topmost object on the stack.
>[lots of shit about picking modes and targets]
>601.2h The player pays the total cost in any order.
>601.2i Once the steps described in 601.2a–h are completed, effects that modify the characteristics of the spell as it’s cast are applied, then the spell becomes cast.
People just tend to float the mana before casting the spell. Note that this does not mean you can wait for your opponents' reaction after putting it on the stack but before paying, this all happens as part of casting the spell, before priority can be passed.

>>51952755
forget what I said, I was mistaken. I thought the spell would only go to the stack once its cast, but you cast the spell as it's on the stack.

>>51952413
Honestly, you're just the biggest beta cuck I've ever seen.

>he proxies an expensive card I don't like, what a dick!
>Ha, instead of seeing that he owns the card and allowing it, I'll making him use the real copy! Now everyone's annoyed at me for wasting everyone's time, and his card might get slightly damaged, that'll teach him >:)

>>51952369
>>51952219
>>51952101
>>51951995
You sound like you need some serious help with mental issues. I don't care if people proxy cards they own for any reason, but proxying expensive shit like The Abyss and Mana Drain for the hell of it is bad for any meta that isn't filled with turbospikes with too much disposable income.
That said, I think it's also reasonable to refuse to play against someone with such deck proxied. At least I think it's nice to look at authentic stuff that has value but refusing to play against a deck with real cards if the power gap is too wide.

You sound like a child. I hope someone calls out your autism and stops playing with you until you replace the cards. You aren't entitled to play the game you can't afford for not paying for the cards necessary.

>>51952791
Oh my goodness. Don't say any nire of those mean words that validate your newness. It's almost like you haven't lurked on /tg/ for the mandatory 5 years before posting, due to your age or something.

In real life, I would punch you so hard in the mouth you'd kiss your stomach, then I'd reach into your face hole with my gauntlet of power, drag you up 10 flights of glass-covered stairs, only so I can throw you off the top with a bitchin' choke slam directly onto your ominously stacked proxies, so they impale you directly in your rectum. Then, I would pick up my binder, flog you a few times, before I Iona is underrated.

>>51952824
>you can't afford
But that's wrong, 30 seconds of resleeving and the proxy is gone.

>>51952873
Exactly. Reseelve your shit if you want format warping banned-everywhere-but-commander-and-not-banned-in-commander-due-to-price garbage in every deck.

>>51952873
yes, and a whole bunch of unnecessary wear and tear on your expensive cards because you're kind of a dick.

boy, I'm impressed. one autistic anon managed to bring the autism of the entire general to light.

>>51952871
What the fuck did you just fucking say about me, you little bitch? I’ll have you know I graduated top of my class in the Navy Seals, and I’ve been involved in numerous secret raids on Al-Quaeda, and I have over 300 confirmed kills. I am trained in unban Painter's Servant

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Hey /tg/ please help me finish my Obzedat deck!!!

https://deckstats.net/deck-12521751-a518955ffa9087c5d4f2accf36a063b0.html

What do you think? I still don't know how to take advantage of lifegain other than staying alive for a bit more, the weird cards like Damping Matrix are there to resist the combo of my friends, they play Breya and Prossh and they win very fast, so I felt like I needed those if I wanted to have a chance.

Ignore the sideboard, I still need to include like 10 cards, suggestions? Thanks in advance!

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>>51952906
I managed to shit up /edhg/ even more than that without even trying, and I'm only barely autistic. You may know me as the Sol Ring fag.

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>>51952899
>>51952905
So it's exactly what this anon>>51952791
said?

God I'm cracking up, such fucking cucks, my god.

>>51950554
>>51952906
I-i never meant for this to happen.

>>51952906
To be fair, I've had a lot of practice on other boards, but hey, I figured I'd come back and bring the ruckus for old times sake. It's hilariously easy to do, I usually don't because it requires someone else to bring one of "the chosen topics" up.

>>51952824
If the argument was "Should Mana Crypt be banned" or "Should my playgroup ban Mana Crypt", then I'm sure you'd have a lot more anons on your side. But you're trying to make the argument that someone shouldn't be allowed to proxy Mana Crypt, even if he owns it, in a format and a context where it is legal and he could play the real copy by just switching sleeve.

Your problem isn't the proxy, it's the Crypt, learn to deal with your angry feelings about Mana Crypt (and Mana Drain and The Abyss and whatever other broken card has you buttflustered) and stop conflating issues of proxying with issues of power level.

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>>51952955
>cucks
Isn't that the sound a chicken makes? Did you misspell fucks? What even is this?

If you want to be a dick, expect dickitry in return. That's the golden rule my sun.

>>51953000
>taking pride in being a shitposter
that's hilariously pathetic

Mulligan question!

So in multiplayer commander, how does it work? I know the first one is free, you can draw 7 cards again. Then the other ones aren't, so how do I do them? What is that weird scrying thing after you decide to keep your hand?

It's been a while since I played.

>>51953040
>this new
Jesus fucking christ, case and point

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>>51950347
You have ten seconds to explain to me why you don't have pic related in your deck.

I know you can't, but i'll let you try.

>>51953079
Commander follows all the normal rules for mulligan that I am aware of.

In multiplayer you get one free mulligan, and the scrying part is a recent change to mulligans.


Should you accept a hand with less then 7 cards, you can scry 1.

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>>51953131
Why bother having one when I can merely "borrow" one with her?

>>51953131
1. I don't own it.
2. 7 mana.

>>51953131
1. I have it in 3 decks
2. Too lazy to make proxies for the other 3 decks

>>51953131
my most recent deck with yidris is almost entirely spell flinging.

I do have a karametra deck that really should have this in it though

>>51953131
I alrady win before reaching 7 mana anyway :^)

>>51953079
Depending on locale. Make sure to ask.
My play group lets you set aside any number, draw that many, the shuffle the set aside back in. After that, regular mulls.

>>51953131

Is it really that useful for 7 mana?

>>51953167
>don't own it
not an excuse

>7 mana
so you never get bothered by black and red again.

>>51953215
In a very durdly meta, sure.

>>51953131
Gisella with only 7 creatures doesnt need it.

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>>51953101
>not knowing obscure jargon makes you new
Come on buddy, just because you can mash your face into a keyboard doesn't mean your phone-based typos prove your "non-newness". At least use an actual insult next time. I bet you don't even run brago stax without a single wincon other than your opponent getting mad and scooping.

>>51953216
>he gets bothered by black and red
what a shitter

>>51953162
Good luck getting that through, bub.

>>51953216
Yea, because Protection works SO well against damnation

>>51953023
I'm not the other guy and this was my first reply so I have no idea what you're talking about.
There's expensive decks mainly in my meta with Tabernacle, Invoke Prejudice and all the good stuff and the group has no issue with proxies, but I easily can see why someone would have the issue.
Especially in new groups it can be format- and mindwarping in a way that if someone proxies, then everyone does it and everyone just gathers the most expensive cards there is and the actual reason for playing becomes clouded.
>>51952873
The argument was purely assuming that the person doesn't own the card and isn't gonna get one, like proxying for testing purposes.

>>51952940
I'm the Mental Misstep and Vorel Squirrel tribal stax guy, we should meet up.

>>51953273
>>51952940
Hi friends, I'm the turbo sperglord that eradicated the scourge of custom alters for commanders, and giest of st. traft sea monster tribal, which some other anon has been hyping as of late. We should get together, play commander, and drink beers.

>>51953228
You're right, there's better artifacts to take than that, you know.

>>51953131
I don't play creatures that do combat, if I play them at all not counting commander.
7 mana to give Peacekeeper protection from 2 colours isn't a good deal in my opinion.

>>51953222
>Obscure
Anon, stop embarrassing yourself.

>>51953311
>>51953273
>>51952940
All we need now is the police state lgs and 29 swamp anowon anon and we will have all the famous autists of /edh/

>>51953311
I'd love that, gathering for the autist shitposters. I'm willing to bet that we don't live even in same continent, though.

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>>51953311
>>51953273
>>51952940
Sure, we're only missing pic related guy to complete the group of autist sperglords of /edhg/.

>>51953363
>>51953367
>>51953377
Before we get together, we should first set some ground rules. Are Mana Crypt proxies allowed?

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Deathrite Shaman in Yidris Wheels, yes or no?

>>51953363
I think that we're missing someone, at least one.

>>51953415
eh?

It seems okay, but my yidris wheel deck is designed to steal/cast stuff from my opponents graveyard

>>51953377
>>51953367
>>51953363
What decks do you guys play? Don't post your list, because inevitably you will post your lists at other times and people will remember this thread for way too long. I just finished building dirty mike and board wipes, as well as feldon hastey bullshit reanimator sac-a-thon.

>>51952939

p-please respond

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>>51953464
Why not post my lists? I'm one of the aforementioned autists of /edhg/, the banSolRingfag, I'm getting drunk and playing this turbo-casual list tonight.
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/ephara-god-of-jank/

And yeah, I still think Sol Ring should be banned, I own up to my shitposting.

>>51953415
DR shaman is good in any deck that can run it, so why not.
>>51953404
Are Iona, DEN, Palinchron, Serra Ascendant and Felidar Sovereign banned? Are Balance, Primeval Titan, Trade Secrets and Recurring Nightmare unbanned? Can we run off-colour cards? Can we include cards from UN-sets?

>>51953215
It protects your creatures and gives good buffs. The most important part is that the decks that use black/red doesn't usually have artifact destruction, while white/green/blue won't care about destroying it. It sticks to the battlefield surprisingly well because of that mentality.

>>51953531
>Serra Ascendant
IT'S A 6/6 FLYING LIKELINK FOR W

>>51953464
I play Memnarch artifacts and Hanna stax most of the time, but I have plenty of decks. I play occasionally Stoutarm prison, Skittles and Ghave combo.

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>>51953564
>The most important part is that the decks that use black/red doesn't usually have artifact destruction
Say what

>>51953574
>Serra Ascendant
>good

nah

>>51953220
Well, you're building your deck wrong.

>>51953227
>he gets bothered by black and red
the entire point of the card is Not to get bothered, so how can you say i get bothered by it?

>>51953231
board-wiping your creatures with a one-time thing that won't actually take down the artifact that is fucking you in the butt is NOT a good play.

>>51953574
But phyrexian dreadnought is double the power for same mana amount!

>>51953327
>peacekeeper
oh, you're building your deck wrong.

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>>51953592
>>51953574
NO! DON'T FUCKING START THIS AGAIN

>>51953591
black has Zero artifact destruction, and normally red doesn't bother with it unless it is focused around artifacts, which means he is building his deck wrong.

>>51953624
6 / 6

F L Y I N G

L I F E L I N K

FOR W.

>>51953621
But turning creatures sideways is heresy. Only way to play creatures is to never attack. Even my Boros deck doesn't attack that much.

>>51953564
>red doesn't usually have artifact destruction
what the fuck

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>>51953574
>>51953592
Seriously, what is wrong with it? it's 1 mana 6/6 flying in early/mid game. Looks legit to me.

>>51953636
>artifact removal
>building wrong
pick one and only one you goddamn mongoloid

>>51953580
Ah! A fellow Ghave poster. I'm actually that anon with the filthy budget Ghave combo list made out of the Atraxa precon. Good taste my friend

>>51953529
Sure, I'm the proxy sperg and I'll post my incredibly sub-optimal Dirty Mike list when I type it up.

>>51953649
Literally every time I've mulliganed or topdecked this on turn 1 it gets removed.

>>51953647
As i explained later, unless the deck itself is focused on artifacts, the player won't have artifact destruction in it.

>>51953681
but that's wrong you fucking retard

>>51953671
>white one-drop that always draws out a removal spell
Probably has something to do with the fact it's pretty powerful.

>>51953636
>zero artifact destruction
>what is Gate to Phyrexia
>what is Necrotic Ooze with Witch Engine and Priest of Yawgmoth in the graveyard while oppoent is Mindslaved
Get your fagts straight, macaroni.

>>51953649
Even as a 1/1 lifelinker for 1, it's not bad.
Depends on what your deck is trying to do.

>>51953681
I'm with the other anons, that's fucking retarded.
>the color that has vandalblast doesn't usually play artifact destruction hurrr dee durr

>>51953671
1- It's white, it gets back
2- literally anything else would get removed with that reasoning, so you shouldn't play at all.
3- you will make at least one attack if you're playing first, which already pays for having the card.

>>51953663
My ghave is nearly 1000$ combo deck with no proxiesand I absolutely love it

>>51953681
Guy what

I am fucking addicted to red, I run it in almost everything, and I always make room for artifact removal

>>51953712
I love Gate to Phyrexia.

Too bad the ability can only be used during my upkeep.

>>51953751
Sweet Jesus, mine is like $100 bucks. I'd love to see it some time. Is it the landbase that's so expensive? I intentionally skipped triple devotion things and focused on basic land ramp.

>>51953722
Honestly, all but one guy that i know that uses red in his deck actually have artifact destruction. It's just not something that you prepare for because normally other colors do it better; remove permanents, or remove artifacts/enchantments.. stuff like that. Pure red going for artifact destruction i only saw once, and because his deck was focused on artifacts. Hell, i HAVE a deck like that. It just feels kind of useless to use red artifact destruction when you can have cards that are more open about their targets.

>>51953681
Removal is important as fuck, especially the most common and powerful archetype that is artifacts. Shattering Spree, Shattering Pulse and Vandalblast are pretty much auto-includes. There's probably more that I forgot.
Just because you play artifacts doesn't mean you shouldn't play removal for them.
What, do you not run wraths in a creature decks?

>>51953725
No, my point was that I never get to attack with it. I've had it in two of my white decks and I've never had it survive past turn one. Despite that, it remains in both of those decks because some day I'll get to attack with it. I know it in my heart.

At worst it can mill some early game removal out of your opponents so anyone saying it's not worth it is retarded.

>>51953794
I have some foils and moonrune cards that make it expensive and of course I have Damnation, Demonic Tutor, SotF, YagWin and other such cards that bump the price up immensely. I even have a judge foil Doubling season there that I never cast because it's almost useless.

>>51952412
>Monarch is a good keyword and I want it in all my decks

Damn right

>>51953825
Smelt and Smash are pretty good too.

>>51952290
What does it mean beforehand? You know you have a chance to activate mana abilities just before paying the cost which is the last part of casting a spell.

Is full-foil Niv-Miz anon around? Can you post image and list?

>>51953681
t. Timmy that doesn't run any removal unless it's big and splashy

>>51953529
Alright, it's complete. I also plan on getting drunk and playing commander with a casual group, hence the shitty landbase. If I'm lucky, as the group gets better, I'll slowly bring out some better tech, but I also wanted to introduce them to some traditional bullshit, like necropotence, but in a controlled environment.

>http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/dirty-mike-without-a-trike/

I still hate ugly alters of otherwise nice cards, I just needed the catharsis.

>>51952613
Right, and if they're casting Zenith with exactly UUU floating, then X is 0 because they haven't declared a value.

>>51952660
>The creatures are garbage and don't make much sense
Think very hard about the name of the deck, then look at them again.

>>51952733
Hi.

I'm not wrong. That is not how judge proxies work.

>>51953933
Yes and no. There's a difference between "I cast Fireball for X=6" and tapping your lands after you say that, and saying "I cast fireball" and waiting for responses before deciding what X is.

>>51954095
>and saying "I cast fireball" and waiting for responses before deciding what X is.
You just can't do that. No one should respond before the caster states what the value of X is, because he hasn't finished casting the spell until he does. You can't rules lawyer this into forcing them to cast it for X=0.

>>51953933
>I cast wrath of God, any response?
>You wanna tap mana for that sir?
>Of course, of course
Basically seeing if people have anything to respond before choosing how to tap their lands to gain an advantage or just being forgetful assholes

>>51954120
>You just can't do that
Right. If I tap zero of my lands and play Fireball, waiting to see what the response is before I decide if X is gonna be 1 or 10, that's not okay. That's not LEGAL, and I should be dopeslapped for trying it.

If I tap one Mountain and cast Fireball without saying anything else, then X=0.

>>51954058
Well yeah, but I went there expecting bear-heavy thing, but instead I found something unbearable

>>51954165
Welcome to my decks: heavy on puns, light on usefulness.

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>>51953131
I have it in one deck, I really like it. Im not gonna put it in Nin though, the deck is already filled with jank cards that I really like to the brim, pic related.

>>51952733
You don't know much about judge proxies I see. They are only issued only by head judge AND if you have the real card and it's determined that it's in such bad condition that it hinders gameplay and it wasn't your fault the card got into that shape. Even then, you have to replace the card as soon as possible if you want to play it.

>>51954221
More or less correct. The Head Judge will only issue you a proxy for Limited product that was defective out of the packaging, or a card that was damaged beyond playbility DURING the event, through no fault of your own. It's at their discretion, and it's only good for that event- you don't have to replace your issued proxy with a real copy for the duration of that event, but the proxy is only good for that event.

>>51954131
Same goes for the people who tap 4 mana for Armageddon and after passing priority and with no responses they try to tap their remaining lands. That shit doesn't fly either.

>>51950998

How does jokulhaups benefit daretti?

>>51954272
>ramp to turn 2 Daretti
>Jokulhaups with Daretti still alive
>???
>profit

>>51954135

It's not just not legal, it's not possible, you have to declare your X, it doesn't default to 0, it doesn't default to anything

>thread not even 4 hours old
>already closing in on bump limit
The fuck happened in here

>>51954298

I guess that's pretty cool, if you're ramping that hard though, why not just keep going with the artifacts and stuff? Then blow up lands later?

Idk it just seems weird to run tons of mass artifact wipes in your artifact commander deck

>>51954135
But you must declare the value of x even if it's 0. Until you haven't, you haven't finished casting the spell. There's no assumpions here.

>>51954312
Incorrect.

MTR Section 4.2: Shortcuts

If a player casts a spell or activates an ability with X in its mana cost without specifying the value of X, it is assumed to be for all mana currently available in his or her pool.

>>51954358
See >>51954369

>>51954335
Another shitstorm about proxies

>>51954341
A Daretti emblem is very likely to be a win if the board isn't too out of hand when it happens. Sweepers like Jokulhaups help ensure you get to the emblem, and buy you enough time to start leveraging it for value.

>>51954369
601.2b: If the spell is modal, the player announces the mode choice (see rule 700.2). If the player wishes to splice any cards onto the spell (see rule 702.46), he or she reveals those cards in his or her hand. If the spell has alternative or additional costs that will be paid as it's being cast such as buyback or kicker costs (see rules 117.8 and 117.9), the player announces his or her intentions to pay any or all of those costs (see rule 601.2f). A player can't apply two alternative methods of casting or two alternative costs to a single spell. If the spell has a variable cost that will be paid as it's being cast (such as an {X} in its mana cost; see rule 107.3), the player announces the value of that variable. If the value of that variable is defined in the text of the spell by a choice that player would make later in the announcement or resolution of the spell, that player makes that choice at this time instead of that later time. If a cost that will be paid as the spell is being cast includes hybrid mana symbols, the player announces the nonhybrid equivalent cost he or she intends to pay. If a cost that will be paid as the spell is being cast includes Phyrexian mana symbols, the player announces whether he or she intends to pay 2 life or the corresponding colored mana cost for each of those symbols. Previously made choices (such as choosing to cast a spell with flashback from a graveyard or choosing to cast a creature with morph face down) may restrict the player's options when making these choices.

>>51954335
I showed up.

>>51954454
And the MTR says that if you cast an X spell without explicitly defining the value of X, it is assumed to be 'all of the mana you have floating, other than what would pay the non-X portion of the cost'.

If you cast Blue Sun's Zenith with 10 blue mana floating and didn't explicitly say otherwise, X is 7.

If you cast a Blue Sun's Zenith with 3 blue mana floating and don't explicitly say otherwise, X is 0.

>>51953131
Because it's in the mail

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>>51953222
>obscure jargon

>>51953802
>because normally other colors do it better
are you genuinely saying that there are colors that deal with artifacts better than red?
are you genuinely retarded?

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>>51954529
>falling for the worst bait in the world almost 2 hours after it was posted

>>51953415
Can you post a list? I really like that deck.

>>51954477
Still, I have never heard of someone tapping the 3 before determining value of X and as it's not a tournament game where there's prizes, I find it kind of immature to try to claim that the spell does nothing instead of asking the person the value.
Shortcutting is okay here, but sometimes it's just not necessary, unless you're playing with social noobs that can't speak unless you put a gun on their head or something.
I for one prefer friendlier environment and ask if something is unclear, unless I'm playing with experienced people and I'm certain of it, they shouldn't make rookie mistakes anyway.

>>51954553
Well, green and white can deal with them just as well I'd say. Blue doesn't have that much artifact destruction either, only bounce, pretty much

>>51954609
It's literally the rules of the game. And you're right, it doesn't come up much at all. 99.9% of the time, if someone forgot to say what X is, I just ask and they say "Shit, right- X is 5." or whatever. That's how I will play almost every game of EDH.

But when I go up against someone who's trying to be slick by trying to bait a response before deciding on X, I will come down on them with the full force of the rules. If you wanna play hardball, let's play hardball.

But, again, that's only for dickheads. Normal game? Yeah, just tell me what X is, homie. No harm, no foul.

>>51954259
Mana abilities are even faster than instant speed right? Why wouldn't they be able to do that?

why can't any planeswalker be a commander?

>>51954707
Because shut your whore mouth, no one wants to see your bullshit, that's why.

>>51954638
>just as well
that's not the same as doing it better. and white doesn't really come close, only green is a fair comparison.

>>51954701
You still need priority to use mana abilities even though they don't use the stack. So you can't take mana to your pool while spell is resolving or you have passed priority.

>>51953825
If you have to chose between a removal that can remove anything, and one that just work for artifacts, which one would you chose?

>>51954721
Eh, not really. Green has only 3 mass artifact wipes and one of them wipes enchantments too. White has 6, only 1 not wiping enchantments all times.

>>51954609

This is kind of a point of contention among magic players I see. Some people feel that you're supposed to exploit the rules to the fullest and every rules error your opponents make should cost them as much as possible, "so they learn for next time". I don't disagree with this, but I disagree with that reasoning, it doesn't make them any more likely to get it next time

Other people think it's better to try to resolve everything according to the intentions of the players, so long as those intentions are legal. The problem with this is that rewinding can be contentious and confusing

>>51954790
green has much more targeted artifact removal than white though

>>51953828
If you're not even making ONE attack with it, this means your opponent has a good removal-- sword to plowshares, or something like that, and he is using it to deal with that one card that you can easily get back in your white deck. He is arguably losing something even more powerful; he is losing defense, which is not good in a 4 player game.

>>51954786
That's a really fucking dumb question anon, because you're ignoring a fuckton of variables.

>>51954707
Because:
>rules
But there are 5 of them that are legal as commander: Daretti, Nahiri, Freyalise, Teferi and Ob Nixilis. Of course, you need to play those with the special ruling at the bottom of the text box.

>>51954786
Red doesn't have the option though. I pack removal for each permanent type pretty much, multiple of which can hit multiple permanent types, artifact removal being really common. I wouldn't not run Vandalblast because it only hits artifacts. It's like you wouldn't run Swords to Plowshares because it only hits creatures.

>>51954814
Sure, about twice as much, but still white has plenty of them, not gonna argue with it facts though.

>>51954812
tl;dr competitive and casual are different mindsets, who'da thunk

>>51954786
>If you have to chose between a removal that can remove anything, and one that just work for artifacts, which one would you chose?
I would run Chain Reaction/Blasphemous Act, Vandalblast, Shattering Spree, and Ruination every time. Thankfully red has Chaos warp but that's optional if you have any other color. Do you seriously believe that in any game there isn't an instance where you would want or need to destroy artifacts? Even if you exclusively hit mana rocks that can be backbreaking t4

>>51954978
Nah, more like shirt lifters and normal sociable people

>>51954812
If we're playing for prizes, fuck yes I'm not going to let you take back actions because I'm playing to win.

Playing EDH? I'd let my opponent take back most anything with the expectation that he would do the same for me. Granted my definition of "take back" is that I'd only allow you to rewind the most recent action.

Casting a fireball before determining X is absolutely not a take back scenario, that's just fishing for more info. It's the same as tutoring then letting your opponent go while you tutor and changing what you find after you see what your opponent plays.

>>51955039
>It's the same as tutoring then letting your opponent go while you tutor and changing what you find after you see what your opponent plays.
aka. cheating

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What did you get in the mail today, /EDH/?

>>51955117
The fuck are you building?

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>>51955147
Land Tax is for my other deck.

The other three is for my Nin, the Pain Artist Chaos deck.

>>51955175
My first guess was Maelstrom Wanderer group-hug, which on second thought, actually seems really cool. Maybe I'll build that. Thanks anon!

What's the gameplan for Nin? Krark's thumb and coin tosses?

>>51955196
I wouldn't trust a Maelstrom Wanderer deck that claims to be group hug any more than I trust the myriad of "bird tribal" Derevi lists people claim to have.

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Jews of the coast strikes again

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>>51955196
Nope, too straightforward.

I'm going for total Scrambleverse/Possibility Storm/Wild Evocation/Thieves Auction kind of Shenanigans.

>>51955211
But in the end, does it matter if you trust it? I get grouphug is for politics, but what I'm going to do is group hug the ever living fuck out of everyone, then play maelstrom and shit out so much value people will immediately scoop in response. The back up plan was to run a Maelstrom Control build with group hug support, and then just crush people under the horrible weight of their own avarice.

>>51955259
>But in the end, does it matter if you trust it?
It does matter because group hug decks rely on people not targeting them too much. It only works consistently if people keep falling for it and giving the player some space.

It's like Edric grouphug. No one falls for it.

>>51955276
I can't say I've ever built group hug before, it always seemed flawed in concept. How the heck do any of the other decks work? Do they just pray someone like me is going to ramp hard and play bombs that will sap people's aggro? Or is it under the same principle as running a durdlefest combo deck that isn't threatening, until it is?

>>51955230
Hmmm, well I was going to suggest Impulsive Maneuvers. Now I'm going to suggest Seize the Day instead.

>>51955302
Questing Pheldagriff works because you can actually keep people alive with lifegain, otherwise most grouphug you're just playing for second place. Essentially you provide so much card draw/ramp that people don't want to kill you or all your grouphug will dissappear.

>>51955302
You have to convince people that you just want to cause chaos and double mana and give howling mines and you're not trying to actually win the game. No one ever gets convinced. Why would anyone fall for that?

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>>51955117
I'm building Kozilek :^)

>>51955392
>titty pad
At what point exactly did you give up on ever becoming a respectable human being?

>>51955416
When I was born into this gay earth.

>>51953601
My Gisella deck runs 33 board wipes and 20+ additional removal. Only creatures are Heliod, Iroas, Blightsteel/Darksteel Colossus, Avacyn, SadBot, and WeatheredWayfinder.

>>51954488
lousy excuse. But i'll accept it.

>>51954978

Idk I see people playing competitive decks but still with the latter attitude where rules confusion is sorted out collectively and nobody wants to win because their opponent misunderstood the rules as opposed to a strategic victory

>>51954553
I'm saying that there are colors that deal with Removal better

white/black, and even green has some 'remove target permanent' cards, why would you take this and replace for a mere 'destroy target artifact'?

>>51955349
>>51955361
Oh, so it is as retarded as I thought. Why would anyone build a deck like that? I mean, I get "casual meta" and all that, but I honestly was expecting something... I don't know, better? Like chaos decks, they make sense when you have cards that abuse your chaos effects advantageously, but it seems like every non Pheldagriff deck is just a game of kingmaker.

I always wondered why my moderately tuned stompy decks got hated on, and the answer is, they're immune to politics and benefit way too much from any additional card advantage. The only choice I have to make is, do I blow everything up, or only a few things, which seems to be opposed to most people's deck building style for multiplayer games.

>>51955469
That's how I like to play and how I prefer my group to play. We often drink when playing so when someone does something really fucking stupid like casting a counterspell on a spell that can't be countered, we allow take-backs. It just doesn't feel as good to win because an opponent had a brain fart, we'd rather win because we had a better game plan.

>>51955484
Orzhov is the absolute god emperor of general removal, I don't think that's being contested. However, red is better than any color at specific artifact removal. Orzhov doesn't have anything on the levek of vandalblast.

>>51954821
objectively speaking you should be ready to remove anything; what better way to deal with it than a card that can actually remove any permanent instead of just artifacts?

i'm not saying the situation where you will need to remove 8380743 artifacts from the board won't happen, but it is more likely that you will need to remove something else.

>>51950347
Grand Abolisher. Always and Forever

>>51955498

Actually there ARE people who try to take advantage of the group hug gameplan to win. An example would be trying to make a deck that is more equipped to make use of mana doublers and extra card draw, like maybe they have tons of really powerful X spells, and they hope by playing a bunch of mana flares that other people will run out things to use their mana on while they cast exsanguinate for 40

Not necessarily an effective strategy but people DO try to make their group hug decks strategic

>>51955392

>Galko titty pad

well done

>>51954872
except that you Know the other player will have Very annoying creatures that you need to take out of the board, but you don't know if artifacts will be a problem. It's just not comparable. You can fill your deck with artifact destruction for nothing.

>>51955514

Right yeah, lots of people feel this way, but I do understand the other side that paying attention to all available information and not forgetting any rules is also part of the competition

>>51954993
>Do you seriously believe that in any game there isn't an instance where you would want or need to destroy artifacts
that's not what i said.

I said that if you have a card that can destroy artifact, and other that can destroy artifacts and creatures, this one is objectively better.

>>51955523
If you can pick between 1 mana remove anything and 1 mana remove a specific permanent type, of course you pick the one that removes anything. But that's not how Magic works. In real Magic, your red deck will play Chaos Warp and Vandalblast. Not one or the other, both. And regardless of the color of your deck, you won't be running -just- vindicates, specialized removal has its place because it's more efficient at what it does (at the cost of being more narrow)

>>51955520
What is being contested is the clash; if you could put artifact removal or general removal, which one would you go for?

>>51955547
You seem like a wise anon.

How likely is it that Mana Cache is going to bite me in the ass? I'm thinking like 95%, unless I run RB hand control, or something equally dickish, like Jeleva.

>>51955568
Oh yeah, it's a matter of personal preferences at this point. I mostly started playing the way I describe after watching a lot of Star City Versus videos. They care about winning, sure, but it's also part of training for tournaments. When someone makes a dumb mistake, they discuss and correct it, for the sake of seeing where the game goes once the proper plays are made. My group works that way and I feel like it's been a good way to improve.

>>51953564
> red doesn't usually have artifact destruction

I guess you've never played a game with me

>>51955614
What's the general removal spell and what's the artifact removal spell? Are they both the same cost and card type? (pro tip: they're not)

>>51955605
The thing is, what was meant originally is that if in a situation you have other colors with red, you won't normally put red cards to remove stuff. Of course if you only have red you may think of putting artifact removal, but even then that could be for nothing, unless your deck benefits from that in other ways.

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>>51950851
I really enjoyed the playgroup post 'ems, too.

>>51955661
Are you really saying there aren't any general/less specific removals at low cost?

>>51955616

I think the problem with mana cache is that you're only really in control of how many counters you put on it, so if your opponents want to deny you mana from the cache, they can easily do so, and you can do the same, but that means mana cache is doing nothing for anybody, best case scenario

Worst case scenario is you try to store some mana and everybody else uses it up and you get none

>>51955562
This is just plain wrong. Not every meta plays creatures. Artifacts are way more common where I play compared to creatures.

>>51955672
>The thing is, what was meant originally is that if in a situation you have other colors with red, you won't normally put red cards to remove stuff.
And you're wrong about that. Something like Vandalblast has its place even in something like Mardu that has access to a ton of vindicate effects. If you focus on only running the most versatile removal spells, you're going to fall behind because your interaction costs too much mana.

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>>51955551
I see you are a man of culture as well.

>>51955705

Man if the invasion/planar chaos dragons hadn't been so poorly designed it could've been a great benefit to the commander format

>>51955707
That's not even close to what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that specialized removal is more efficient than general/less specific removal.

>>51955707
Yes. Literally. 99.9% of magic cards work that way. You may get omnipurpose removal, but it will be for exactly one thing or it will cost a hilarious amount/have massive draw backs, and likewise, for specific removal, you usually get better bang for your buck, or a cheaper cost.

>>51955738
This picture will never not make me crack the fuck up

NEW THREAD WHEN

>>51955843
You can make one anon, all you need is the ability to copy and paste, a thread topic, a subject line, a link to the old thread, and a neat magic card that you like.

>>51955581
if I only had one slot and the choice was Vandalblast or Putrefy I would run Vandalblast.

If you want to move the goalposts some more, yes, Naturalize is better than Shatter, but all of us aren't retards who run Shatter

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>>51955843


>>51955948
migrate at your leisure

>>51955754
and which one would you rather have

>>51955771
pic related, and i'm not even trying. Not even going to use vindicate because you will probably go on a rant about how expensive it is. But it's just ridiculous to argue that you would rather have a 'destroy target artifact/X artifacts' instead of 'destroy anything/X anything'. Artifacts perhaps won't even be in your way, while "anything" will surely be.