/CofD/ &/wodg/ Chronicles of Darkness and World of Darkness

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We have a Discord now, message me at Malfeas#0987 if you want to be invited.

Spent so bloody long writing this that the old thread archived.

>>51652679
I think the issue here is you're looking at it as, as you say, an attempt to dictate player behaviour, but that's not really what Harmony *does*. It means there's potentially a spiritual and personal consequence for breaching the Oath, but that's not 'do this or suck' (or, indeed, 'this is the only way you can approach it').

In terms of mechanics, the Oath of the Moon doesn't force PCs to approach Pure antagonists non-violently. It means there are consequences to constantly killing Pure, in that you will tend towards a Harmony extreme, but it's not something that can't be countered, you'd need to pile up a fair few Harmony breaks that you failed the roll on for it to reach significant levels, and a werewolf can then take actions to shunt their Harmony back towards balance again.

A game where you were regularly killing so many Pure as to actually find that it was putting you in the red zone on the Harmony chart on an ongoing basis would involve so much carnage that frankly I don't think the resulting imbalance is out of proportion.

A campaign where a pack approaches the Pure with violence, and only violence, at every encounter is not doing Forsaken wrong and is a perfectly acceptable way to play the game. Engaging in so much killing is just likely to take a toll on your characters, much as it does for butchering humans.

I would also suggest that, while the Pure are indeed intended to be an antagonist, there are more facets that can be explored with them than you are allowing for. Yes, many Pure are monstrous. Yes, the Pure are following a doctrine that is likely to pit them against you. That doesn't mean every Pure is a ravening maniac with no higher goal than to murder you - it also doesn't mean that your own circumstances always allow for a Maximum Wolfnazi Purge response. A Forsaken pack might not want to risk the potential losses of fighting a Pure pack, especially one that is mostly getting on with minding its own business or one that has influence and connections which make tackling it troublesome. They might encounter Pure who are hapless sorts inducted into a cult they don't really believe in, or who are more interested in power than the ethos and faith, or who have goals that align with the pack in terms of other enemies that need to be destroyed or goals that need to be accomplished. Etcetera, etcetera; I could come up with all manner of justifications for a Pure pack that neither wants to regularly kill Forsaken, nor demands a violent response to their actions, but it's very late here and I'm heading to bed shortly. However, if you want, it's something I can go over in a more detailed write-up at some stage in the future.

(Er, should probably mark this as 2/4, forgot to tag the first one as 1/4)

And even for those, Forsaken doesn't say 'you can't kill them', just 'there are consequences to your Harmony for killing them'.

This also touches on a few conversations I've had with people in the past (including DaveB) about 'degeneration' on the various integrity-type tracks. A summary would be thus: things that cause your integrity-equivalent to degenerate/go to problematic extremes are not a mechanical attempt to dictate to you not to do those things. They're a part of the game to be explored, with mechanics added to actually make it relevant and interesting. You are not 'playing wrong' if you end up with a werewolf at a Harmony extreme; right now, the fact that one of my players' characters is high-enough Harmony that she's going to go berserk soon due to expanded Death Rage triggers is something we're all looking forward to, said player included, because it's gonna be fun and some interesting story to play around with.

Another point that comes to mind that may be worth considering re the Oath of the Moon and not killing Forsaken - I don't think it's a great stretch to see why a given culture or society may want to tamp down impulses to kill their own kind. Forsaken society *generally* frowns on people who go killing Pure, but what that translates to depends on context and individuals, much as it would for someone who, and let's take an example that's admittedly not exactly a direct translation, went around killing neo-Nazis in real life.

(3/4)

>>51653312

So its more like trying to navigate, say, gang violence and the politics involved in that?

Now, it's sufficiently later after I started writing this, and sufficiently early in the morning, that I'm basically rambling at this stage and somewhat losing track of what I have and haven't covered, but, tl;dr: Harmony and the Oath don't exist to enforce player behaviour, they exist to give consequences to actions and interesting outcomes to such. Harmony and the Oath absolutely do not prevent player characters from killing Pure. It's not too hard to run Pure with more depth than just ravening maniacs and to add causes to interact with them other than fear of shifting one's Harmony. My own players do stuff other than killing Pure not because they're scared OC about their Harmony going out of whack, but because that's how the game is unfolding and because that's what they want to do.

I'm not saying you have to like Forsaken, or to like how Forsaken handles this. I just think it's worth you considering that you may have the wrong end of the stick on the matter, and to take a look at it from a different angle. You might do that and decide you're still right and I'm still wrong - and that's fine. If you do, then you've got plenty of options - and yes, of course, 'go play another game' is one of them, but so are things like just excising the bit you dislike and letting Forsaken kill Pure without any Harmony effects. The game won't break if you do that, and if it means there's a form of Forsaken you do enjoy playing as a result, then go for it. If Forsaken in general isn't your cup of tea, then obviously it *is* time to go play another game, and I genuinely wish you well with whatever game you prefer. Go forth, anon, and do awesome things.

(4/4)

>>51653360
I'm going to say yes in the hope that it makes me sound insightful and covers up the fact that my brain is shutting down with drowsiness.

I really need to hit the hay, but I'll happily chat further over various bits and pieces tomorrow.

>>51653462

Any chance someone could share the following:

Tales of the Dark Eras
Night Horrors: Conquering Heroes
Beast Ready Made Characters

Thanks.

Mage, Mage it's all I care about

>>51653702
>Conquering Heroes

No one is going to pay to give you Dick Eggs, Gamergate Unwashed Asshole and I SUNK DA TITANIC! Go buy it yourself.

>>51653960

They sound like great adversaries for a mage heroically obliterate.

>>51653222
>If you had created the World of Darkness, how would it be different?
I never would have used the word Gothic because it's not accurate at all.
It would also be far less racist and sexist and bigoted.

>>51654099
I get racist and bigoted, but I thought WoD was okay on the sexism, they sure seem to love the womyn

>>51654125
There's a lot of stereotypes and unfortunate conseequences, and some blatant sexism in some games. It's better than most rpgsbut it still exists.

>>51654169
Sounds about right for the time period it was made in, wonder how much of the sexism is in the Black Furies

>>51654198
You can put down your MRA banners the sexism goes both ways.

>>51654216
Nah man I was just going for the easy target, AKA the tribe based around hating men (Early on at least, lil better now but still). Considering the Get used to have a forced form of intolerance at char-gen, I'm sure they had a fair bit of sexims.... I'm going to say Fiana too, something about them screams some sexism at some point.

>>51654216
>the sexism goes both ways.
The Black Furies are actually a good example of that. Outright misandry thrown on top of "stronk womyn" stereotypes that no sane woman actually believes in.

>>51653222

It would have hired better people to make the mechanics. Specially around combat.

I would never had re-hire Phil brucatto or hired David Hill Jr and put a proper Children of Gaia Revised sourcebook.

Blood Treachery and the avatar Storm would have NEVER happened. Instead i would use the space dedicate to condescending/"inclusive" sidebars to recommend to talk like adult for the feels and scope of games.

The technocracy would have been a grey guy intentionally.

Samuel Heigh would have been a Glass Walker Kinfolk to tie to the plot line in their tribebook of kinfolk getting uppity.

The guy who though Atlantis and paths for Mage the awakening would have been fire or worse, transferred to black dog. I would have discarded the 5X5 model of NWoD thinking each line by what they need nor how to fit the model. I would drop morality meters entirely except humanity.

I would have keep the resonance from Ascension to awakening and paradigm.

>bump

>>51653222
Not write in Sam Haight.

>>51655082
I second this notion.

>>51655082
>>51655102

Write Sam Haight into all game lines, including CofD.

>>51655209
I would, ADORE seeing him be integrated somehow into every line of WoD. ESPICALLY mummy, cause no one fucking thinks about that god damn game.

>>51655296
Mummy? What's that?

Are there any 3rd party (besides OPP) WoD/Storyteller products?

>>51655478

Nope, but there might be in the future, depending on how well Scion's OGL does and whether or not White Wolf is down for it.

>>51654099
>It would also be far less racist and sexist and bigoted.
Calm down there leftie. We know you love injecting your political opinions into everything, but you really shouldn't.

>>51653960
There is a knowledge squid that mite b cool for a mage game in that book. Essentially it's an incarnate beast that forgot it was ever human, it swims the waters of the world(s) makes frequent trips to arcadia, the astral, the underworld and the shadow. It knows shit loads about the supernatural and will trade portions of its knowledge in exchange for knowledge it doesn't know. It has a particular interest in vampire lore since most of its knowledge was gained through its otherworldly travels and vampires are isolated from the realms invisible.

>>51656581

>incarnate beast

These are beasts that actually become their monsters physically, right? I haven't read the book yet.

>>51656653
It's the win condition of beasts, yeah. They merge with their Horror, which gives them a shitload of extra powers and the ability to actually be a monster in the real world.

>>51653312
Not the anon you were responding to, but my problem with Oath and its current implemetation is the part where a Forsaken woof with Harmony slanted towards Spirit can go out, murder a Pure(or Ghost Wolf, or even another Forsaken) with a silver implement of their preference, fail their Breaking Point roll, and end spiritually *healthier* at the end of it all. There's a real disconnect for me there.

Okay so, are Archmages from M:Awakening or are they another name for Oracles from M:Ascension?

>>51656693
Its not spiritually healthier, just more balanced. Because they've done other things to tilt them in the other direction before.

>>51656714
Option C:
Both

>>51656693
>Going out and fucking a hooker to become more spiritually balanced after killing your brother
Neat

With regards to Forsaken 2e, what's keeping the Pure from completely purging the Forsaken now that the threat of going Zi'ir from copious uratha murder is no longer a thing?

>>51656865
The difficulty of actually doing so dissuading many who would otherwise try?

>>51656653
>>51656690
Yeah the incarnate thing is kinda dumb normally but in this single instance it actually doesn't matter. Smarty squid is so easy to slot into a Mage game I'm honestly wondering if the person who wrote didn't write it more for mage than for Beast, and if you are one of those people who like to pretend beast doesn't exist then you can just straight up ignore the squid's origin story since it 100% doesn't matter.

>>51656802
WtF 2nd Ed. is actually kinda goofy in how weird balancing Harmony can end being. Like being weighted towards flesh and then killing a human to break yourself back into balance. But... you succeed at your degeneration roll. So you go and kill another human... and pass the roll again. So you try again. You pass. And again. Pass. And again. And again, again, again, again, until your character is standing there covered in the blood and viscera of a 137 people, still at Harmony 7, going "What the fuck inner me?!?"

>>51656883
What's difficult about when they outnumber the Forsaken 4 to 1?

>>51657046
I don't know.
Cooperating maybe?

Do they really outnumber them 4:1?

>>51656802
Depending on how you roll, your character might have to fuck a lot of hookers before they actually fail their Degeneration roll.

>>51657096
... Can he write it off as therapy?

>>51657059
They explicitly did in 1e. Is that no longer the case in 2e?

>>51657046
If I remember correctly part of the problem was that they burned out their auspices and associated powers. This makes it so the Pure have the numbers but the Forsaken have the mystical mojo.

>>51657160
The Pure have more powerful Totems on average though. And in 1e they got unique, exclusive Tribal Gifts that were just as powerful as Auspice Gifts.

So Werewolves are no longer monogamously inclinednlike 1e? No more wolvea mate for life instinct most apex predators have?

Does Mage the Awakening allow different perception of supernatural phenomena based on your "praxis" or "paradigm" even just cosmeticaly? Maybe a portal will look opening of glade to one mage and a giant monstrous moth to another. Both are functionally the same just the Mages see it differently. Both will register the same Truths symolicaly.

>>51657475
>Monsterous mouth*

>>51657475
Some symbols might display themselves a bit differently (Mastigos might see someone bound to his desk by chains representing his job, while an Acanthus might see it as a ribbon), but the meaning is always mostly clear.

Your Mage Sight isn't clouded when it should be clear, so a portal will look just like that in Space Sight, a portal. No mouths, no glades, just a portal, a warping of space connecting two locations by fraying the distance between them.

Physically they might seem different, but that's the physical, mortal senses which can be tricked.

If you use an Arcanum or something like Fate, then sure you're going to see abstract symbolism that you have to figure out yourself.

But the entire point of Mage Sight is that you're looking past the chaff to get straight at the Truth.

>>51657536
You are talking about active/focused mage sight right? Because Peripheral is Always on.

>>51657059
Aren't the Pure supposed to be more cooperative than the Forsaken?

>>51656865
I mean, they try. IIRC, it' goes in a cycle
>One side gets stronger than the other
>Stronger side devolves into petty infighting/complacency as a result of their lofty position
>Other side manages to make the comeback and reverse the situation
Wash, rinse, repeat since Father Wolf's death.

>>51657567
Yes, I am.
Peripheral Mage Sight is noticably, quite personalised.

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>reading through the tribebook for Bone Gwaners
>one of their gifts forces everyone to start dancing when they play the banjo
Best tribe

>>51658337
I now have the perfect excuse to play this song during a game.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76Pq8sTFmvw

>>51654436
The game itself is based on stereotypes. I'm irish and I balked at the fianna when I first started reading but every single tribe is an exaggerated stereotype of something.

I love it.

Mage players, what was your shadow name? I played an Acanthus con man with a music fetish and a lust for fame and glory who went by the name Mr Jones. Apparently I was the only counting crows fan in the group because nobody got it.

>>51659761
I'm GMing, I've got fucking tons.

Though the character I really want to get to play is Angela Dawn. Obrimos with a ladyboner for Fate, and finding what she called "True Fate", the kind of shit even Awakened Magic can't fuck with.

>>51659761
The character I'm sitting on right now is a Moros named Roland. He picked that name as a reference to the book series mainly, because Roland was all about reaching the Dark Tower which was the mystical center of all creation and supposedly had god living at the top of it. He was so obsessed with this goal that he sacrificed everything he had and everyone he loved (literally, they all died) to reach it, and when he finally got there it was all for nothing. So the name is really meant to serve as a warning against delving too deep into your obsessions.

But when other characters ask him about the name choice he just tells them it's a reference to the poem. "Moros, 'Childe Roland to the *Dark Tower* Came', get it?"

Most of my Shadow names end up being literary references.

>>51656865
>With regards to Forsaken 2e, what's keeping the Pure from completely purging the Forsaken now that the threat of going Zi'ir from copious uratha murder is no longer a thing?

First is the auspice. Auspice in 2nd are incredible powerful. In 1st edition the pure had their own set of gift that while not exclusive to them their book said they were difficult to get. Thats no longer the case, the pure have the same gifts as the forsaken minus the 10 (2 for each auspice) incredible powerful auspice of the forsaken.

A friend once describes the arhoun (WtA full moon) as living the FILO philosophy (first in, last out) now in 2nd? They are the first in and the leave whenever they fucking want because everything is dead.

I running a game and a cub full moon with only 1 Lunar gift is hitting 12 damage per turn in garou. 8s again can be and are nasty.

The only things that the Pure have are, stronger totems (1 point more for free) and "numbers" which depends heavily on the setting. The pure haven't receive any love this edition unfortunately and it feels they are threat just by DM Fiat.

>>51659735

To be fair the Fianna tribebook is awful, its not "children of gaia awful" but it is pretty bad.

>>51659761

None really, in our table we think that having shadownames is like having your "Japanese" name in weeaboo communities and that no adult would use one and expect them to be treated seriously. So we houserule them out of the game.

>>51657265
Of course not anon, cuckolding is the future!

>>51654099
even more? What do you get then? World of Social Justice? Sounds like a bland game

>>51661082
Eh, some of their older stuff still has bite (seeing twinks (as in faggots) used in a sidebar made me do a double take)

>>51660955
you can even have sex and get pregnant as a man as a werewolf

>>51659761
Farmer Thrysus called himself "The green man" or Green for short. Accidentally ended up being worshipped as a deity by other farmers in the area. He was content on leaving well enough alone until they started sacrificing children in his name so he had to step in and take a more active roll in the cult.

Downside deranged redneck cultists, plus side free mystery cult influence.

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How would you stat up the Slender Man? I think he would probably be a one-of-a-kind ephemeral being of Rank 4 or 5. He could also be a Horror (the kind that uses Potency and Dread Powers), a True Fae or Incarnate Beast.

>>51661619
I've always imagined him as a true fae

>>51661619
Perhaps a Goetia that jumps between bodies of 4channers to possess?

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Pence is an Ochemata of the Father

>>51661931
The Paternoster hasn't heard hide nor hair from the Father in decades. Every other iron seal communicates regularly with it's followers with the possible exception of the Gate.

There's a delicious irony to this.

>>51662063
Until now, when the revealed servants of the Father again take a hand in guiding history

>>51662139
>implying it's not the Hegemonic Ministry

Look at all this nationalist, antiglobalist rhetoric. They're fighting back against those Mammon faggots.

>>51662063
Paternoster is the ministry of false religion, makes sense that they'd practice what they'd preach

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My Moros is a Pacific Islander

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Who's a cute?

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>>51662303
>ministry of false religion
Is there any other kind?

>>51659761
I had a Blank Badge infiltrating the silver ladder who went by "Janus" which was just a fancing up of his real shadow name "5k31370n" or
Skeleton" (as in skeleton key). He was an expert at breaking and entering as well as hacking.

The Janus name made a solid cover with the same basic meaning. Roman god "of beginnings, gates, transitions, time, doorways, passages, and endings. "

As a Mage, if a deity/spirit/supernatural entity asked you to immaculately conceive a child would you do it? Let's say said child will have a great destiny and power.

>>51663299
>deity/spirit/supernatural entity
Depends on the deity/spirit/supernatural entity.

Is it possible yo run a laid back Mage game where you go around solving supernatural mysteries like in Mushishi? There will still be threats but nothing too grand unless you mess with some high ranks being.

>>51663383

Sure, we our mage game was 90% that until the end when we did a time skip.

What you need is talk to the player so they agree to that playstyle and limit the level of arcana they can purchase.

For example before the first time skip we couldnt raise a arcanum past 2, then after we coulndnt raise an arcanum past 3 and so on so on.

Okay, I've never played Mage, but all this mageposting made me curious.

How the fuck do you play let alone DM a Mage campaign? If you can literally solve anything by turning people into lawnchairs it has to be boring as fuck.

>>51664040
It's a massive exaggeration, and mage, like all gamelines, is balanced against itself. I don't know why you would actually play a crossover campaign.

>>51664097
>>51664040
I'm running an Ascension game right now. The PCs are all Arete 3, and the basic concept so far seems to be "The PCs are ridiculous reality-warping demigods, only fuck crowds and fuck guns"

Literally one PC has defenses against normal firearms, everyone else is just running around hoping they don't get shot up.

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Magefags.

>>51664097
>>51664152
Ah good. Like I said, I've never touched it.

What's "better" ascension or the chronicles one? I would prefer to play ascension since I like oWoD better in the other lines I've tried but I've heard that M20 is a shitfest.

>>51664186

I swear you non-magefags are just fucking jealous of us.

>>51664246
It's subjective. I prefer Chronicles Mage especially 2e. I was never big on any of the meta-plots, the science vs magick neo-paganism schtick, and didn't like the technocracy as antagonists.

I'm also a DaveB fanboy. Notice me Senpai.

>>51664246
Both Ascension and Awakening are amazing games, the former just can't be played without house-ruling it first. You can at least play Awakening entirely RAW.

>>51662063
Have faith, anon

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>>51664246
>>51664537
I can confirm this, when I ran Ascension I basically threw everything out except the Storyteller system and the basic Sphere rules and house-ruled everything.

The setting is amazing but the system is confusing at best, and overcomplicated at worst. Was awesome when it finally got rolling though.

>>51662063
What's the irony? God's real and he's a dick? Or god's real and he doesn't care about you?

>>51664623
>the system is confusing at best, and overcomplicated at worst.

It's also hard as balls to even use magick until you can start holding/handing your spells. Arete + Sphere is a very common house-rule because of this. It's exactly the same in Dark Ages, Pillar + Foundation.

>>51664871
Are the Pillars in Dark Ages functionally (or even thematically different) than the Spheres in the normal time period (Which I think are just the Order of Hermes method of labeling the universe)?

>>51664899

They're similar, but different. Each Tradition had their own idea of how the universe should be labeled back then. The Order of Hermes just refined everything.

I always mused about just using both in a single game.

>>51664871
I just lowered successes needed so that most common effects only took 2 successes, some 1.

>>51664899
Each Tradition had access to four unique Pillars compared to the nine Spheres that every modern Mage can access.

If a ghoul's domitor dies, can he just simply choose another?

>>51662139
>>51662063
>>51662155
>>51662303
>Until now, when the revealed servants of the Father again take a hand in guiding history

Obviously, the Father is Making the Exarchs Great Again ©

>>51665366
yesish.

>>51662063
The Paternoster *Minister* hasn't been visited. I would think the Ministry has just as much Prelates as any other Great Miniistry.

>>51665542

Dave, glad to see you back on /wodg/.

While you're here, might you offer even a vague eta for the Mage 2e post-release material like the FAQ and antagonists or indicate if we'll see Signs of Sorcery before GenCon 2017?

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>mfw the book of nod brings up a good point of Vampires being tax evaders

How have the IRS not cracked down on them yet?

>>51665772
Obviously several key members of the IRS have obviously been brought into the fold as Ghouls, and their masters wage eternal war upon one another trying to topple their competitors so they might take the might of that organisation all for themselves.

They are (for now) in a nigh perpetual stalemate, but should one succeed? All of a sudden the Kindred of America would have a new and terrifying foe to behold.

Forget Caine. The IRS is coming.

>>51665772

The IRS is controlled by the Technocrats from the Syndicate.

They'll move against the reality deviants when they're good and ready.

>>51665542
Daaaaaave. Will imbued items/artifacts and spell control be in the FAQ?

>>51665542
What's the deal with that anyway? Is the Father just fucking with him?

>>51661619
Make him an Astral Threat. He started off as a joke, but as he got more and more popular in the mainstream, his Astral Presence grew until he forged his own damn large realm amidst the larger Temenos Realm of Fear.

He's now a Rank 4 Goetia, however he's getting pretty fucking salty that everyone's gone off of him, and he's desperately trying to find an Iris back into the physical so he can send out his "children" to use their Aggressive Meme ability to increase his popularity again.

His Realm also exists in the Meme-Kingdoms, and he's currently getting his ass kicked by the other Manifest Memes, like "Number One" which too seems to have begun the inexorable fade into irrelevance. In fact, the older Meme Gods are unsettled by the explosive rise and fall of new Memes, as opposed to the longer more sustained success they and their kin enjoyed in years past. Memes have changed.

What kind of spell and practice would I need to be able to float freely in twilight as if I was a ghost/spirit/astral projection?

>>51663299
Immediately? So, grab my Cabalmate and have him go to town right here and now?

>>51666808
Well for Ghost Twilight it's Death 2 to shape your Epehemera into one suitable for flight, and then use your Wings.

So for the sake of equivalence there's an argument for the use of Spirit 2 to do something similar. However I don't think Spiritual essence is as easily changed as Ghostly Ephemera, so I'm uncertain if Ruling alone would do it.

Probably safer to say Weaving (Spirit 3) in Spirit Twilight, changing the properties of your ephemeral form to be "flight capable" even if it doesn't have wings, or you're not made of air or something.

Astral Projection? I don't know, in Mind Twilight you're not even physically there, you're just a mental image, so I'm inclined to say that you can fly about to your heart's delight due to not having to follow any rules of physicality in Twilight.

>>51666927
How many Arcana cover Twilight states?

>>51667019
Death, Spirit, and Mind, the Arcana of intangible beings, ghosts, spirits, and goetia.

>>51666927
But what practice would state up allow me to float/fly without modifying my Ephemera in Ghost Twilight? Weaving/Perfecting?

>>51666370
I mean there is a lot of precedent for god fucking over his followers just because.

>>51667287
I'd say Weaving, by modifying the way your ephemera interacts with the rules of Twilight.

e.g.
Ghosts can fly if it suits their purview. So a man savaged to death by a wolf likely can't, but a person who fell to his death screaming from a helicopter probably could (symbolism of falling).
So all you need to do is change your "I'm a person, I follow person rules, like gravity" element of your ephemeral form into a "I am tied to the concept of flight, permit me to ignore Twilight-Gravity" element.

Twilight follows different rules to physical reality, it does not have "true" gravity, which means it's easier to disrupt.

>>51667485
Cool I'll go with that. Also, is a Knowing Death Spell to know when someone will die be the same as a Knowing Spell to find out how a person died?

>>51667564
You might need some Time or Fate to swing that.

>>51667650
I thought Forensic Gaze is was a straight up Death Spell?

>>51667687
Yeah, but that's determining something that's already happened. If you want to look into the future, you're gonna need Time or possibly Fate.

>>51667564
You can't use Death to tell when someone will die, because Death can only detect what is. There's no Death there for the Practice of Knowing to find.

Use Time to find out when they'll most likely die, or Fate to find out when the universe wants them to die.

>>51662323
Mines a nazi hunting Jew who uses a cursed Aztec knifein 1940s LA.

I don't have a drawing because I'm not cool like you.

Quick question how open to interpretation are Path Tools? My Moros leaves near by the sea and I decided her Path Tool to be a piece of coral from an ancient coral reef. Coral is composed of calcified dead organisms. Is that allowable?

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>Legacy Attainments decrease all Mana costs of their equivalent spell higher than one point to one point.
>Platonic Form with Potency allocated to Mana Capacity may put more than 1 point of mana into their creation as a part of the casting, or leave it empty

So a Legacy Attainment version of Platonic Form can generate infinite Mana by drawing it forth from your soul's "sacred place" into a physical form, then using Channel Mana to soak it out from that into your tank...

I'm just going to say that this Attainment requires one point, then fills the rest up with... Celestial energy or something, which fuels the other effects. Because infinite mana is ludicrous.

>>51667813
As open to interpretation as symbolism is.

A knife can be seen as a weapon of war, and an implement of healing, of torture, and of the refined capacity of man to manipulate the world around them, and that's before you get into what it's made of.

Coral being comprised of dead organisms 100% means it's sympathetic to Stygia and can function as a Path Tool, so long as your character knows that.

What are the benefits of mage tools and grimories?

It's an aspect i mostly ignored with my previous character but something I want to look into more now

>>51655721
OPP owns Scion outright, so they decide on that, not WW,

>>51667870
Grimoires are basically repository of rotes. You can cast any rote in it that you meet Arcana requirments for, but only as a ritual.

>>51667870
Tools make you less likely to get raped by the Abyss.

Grimoires contain rotes, and if you cast from the grimoire, the spell takes longer, but you get to reroll failures. You also get this benefit if you're using a rote you invented personally.

>>51667870
Mage Tools can be a fairly useful yantra (Path Tools can be used on any spell from that Path), and Order Tools can be used on any spell that fits in their Order's MO.
However their biggest benefit is that your Dedicated Tool (be it Path or Order) decreases Paradox dice by 2. So at lower Gnosis, you can reach frequently to your heart's content, using your Dedicated Tool to soak up a lot of those Dice and still cast spells effectively.

Grimoires are extremely useful in that they can either:
1. Give you half-cost Rotes, which unfortunately require you to ritually cast them
2. Give you the ROTE FUCKING ACTION on a Rote you already know, so long as you're ritually casting it
In many cases instead of wanting to learn all these Rotes that you'd already be ritually casting, you can just buy a Grimoire Merit, and have a book full of them.

Here's the REALLY important trick (or two) with Grimoires though, ones that many people don't know about, or discount.
If you want to use a Rote, and you don't want to purchase it, either through the actual purchase, or a grimoire.
You can borrow a 1-dot Grimoire from your Order/Consilium hopefully containing that Rote, even if you have as little as a single dot in Status.

Also unless your GM is a cunt, it's super fucking easy to copy Rotes (for your Order, less so but still dorable for you) with a single point in Prime. So you can borrow that Grimoire, copy the Rotes you want, and give it back, spending only a few points of Mana and perhaps a ritual (if you're not very good with Rotes).

Paradox still fucked me up despite my Dedicated Tool. Reduce Paradox pool to chance die. Rolls a 10 twice....

>>51667981
Chance dice can't explode, talk to your GM.

>>51667996
That's news to me

>>51667813
>>51667846
>My Moros leaves near by the sea and I decided her Path Tool to be a piece of coral from an ancient coral reef. Coral is composed of calcified dead organisms. Is that allowable?

No, as DaveB explained (again), Path tools are limited, and cannot just be anything purportedly related to a Pathy's symbolism.

http://archive.4plebs.org/tg/thread/51634639/#51651914

Path tools only include coins, cups, mirrors, rods and knives and other specific type of Path-appropriate weapons, and they will only count as a Yantra if of a specific material resonant with the Path. (Mage, p.121)

For Moros, the materials include lead, bone, gems, buried materials, and the only weapons allowable besides the standard knife are hammers, maces and crushing weapons.

However, you can choose anything you want as a *dedicated too*. This will always provide Paradox mitigation. If the dedicated tool is otherwise semiotically appropriate for a particular spell, it may also count as a Order to Path tool Yantra.

>>51667886

I meant for a possible CofD/WoD OGL or third party content.

>>51668019
Coral is basically bone you know. It's a collection of dead things bunched up over time. Fish/shells/dead micro organisms

>>51668019
Right, so you've got
>Coin - Construction/repair/persistance/resources
>Cup - Healing/intuition/perception/community
>Mirror - Sight/soul/self
>Rod - Commanding
>Weapon - Taking direct action/harm/intellect/will

Ah, okay. Well, at least my Mastigos's hand-forged knife works well enough, all he's done has been direct action, or intellectualism and will.

>>51668007
They could in 1e, I don't think they mention that they can in 2e.

>>51668046
I doubt that WW will do any 3rd party/OGL, they never did before. And with their plans for a trans-media blitz and plans for a 'one coherent world bible' thing, OGL and 3rd party wouldn't fit their goals.

>>51667919
>Tools make you less likely to get raped by the Abyss.

Only Dedicated tools reduce Paradox.

Order and Path tools, when used in a manner semiotically linked to a particular spell, provide a +1 bonus per tool on the spellcasting roll.

>>51668089

Your Mastigos' knife also needs to be made of pure iron or brass to be used as a Yantra.

Your description of a "weapon" tool is also a bit broader than the description in the book.

"Weapons, most normally knives, are symbols of thought
made action — any spell that takes direct, decisive action
on the world (or a person) can benefit from a weapon.
While often used to harm, weapons also represent the
mastery of intellect and will over the world."

The high focus lens of my camera can be a Path Tool right? The lens not the camera

>>51668267

No, unless you can convincingly describe it as (i) a coin, cup, mirror, rod or appropriate weapon, AND (ii) it's composed of appropriate material.

Note that glass is only appropriate for Acanthus.

>>51668323
You know talking about Mage and Yantras was so fun until you came around.

>>51668174
>Your Mastigos' knife also needs to be made of pure iron or brass to be used as a Yantra.
Mastigos's materials include "iron, brass, leather, worked materials".
His knife falls into the last category.

>mage supremecy

>>51668431
>"worked materials"

That along with "buried materials" really needs an explanation in the Mage FAQ to prevent player abuse.

Would Salt be considered "buried materials"? What semiotic value would they have for spells?

>>51668405
>You know talking about Mage and Yantras was so fun until you came around.

The rules are the rules, and they're designed to prevent abuse and overreach.

If you want to further expand your already wide Yantra repertoire, take an appropriate Merits or join a Legacy,

You probably won't have to improvise tools unless something disastrous happens. None of the materials are unusually rare/hard to carry (hell you could use a chicken bone as a wand if you're a moros) I would assume most mages will be carrying around at least basic tools as part of their EDC.

As your character grows you can go out and buy fancy path and order tools made out of perfected materials and get that sweet roll modifier.

>>51668573
>prevent player abuse
Really? Have a hand-worked item count as a +1 yantra if it fits a certain category of tool, and not even a dedicated tool at that is abuse?

I mean, I could potentially see that slightly if someone's invested enough in Egregore to count various tools as Dedicated. But really?

>>51668618
>As your character grows you can go out and buy fancy path and order tools made out of perfected materials and get that sweet roll modifier.
Then pay an Obrimos to enhanct your favorite tool with a Persistent +1 Reach version of As Above, So Below.

For that delicious 8-again on every spell you use it with, for Exceptional Success fishing.

>>51660865
That's your choice and all, but Shadow names aren't taken on for shits and giggles. Your real name is something you don't want your enemies knowing, and not just because it helps them reach out to your pattern. They can fuck with you hardcore if they know the name that's on your properties and assets, not to mention they could get at your family. Some Mages see Shadow names as separating themselves from their Fallen (read: "fake") identity that was forced on them by the Exarchs, but for practical purposes it's just a pseudonym.

So John Smith is really just as much of a Shadow name Kurokaze yaga or whatever the fuck you think Shadow names are.

>>51668579
>Would Salt be considered "buried materials"?

"Buried materials" really require some explanation.

>>51668685
Im thinking buried materials are minerals.

>>51668713

"Buried materials" seem sort of redundant or potentially incongruous after gems and bone, and with Moros' metal being lead.

>>51668685
I'd assume it's anything which you "find" buried.
So minerals, bones, fossils, ancient buried items like coins and pottery.

Anyone who new my Real name is dead. Even my Mage mentor who adopted me gave me my Shadow Name. He never asked for my real name. I don't even have birth records. I practically don't exist. Even my husband calls me by my Shadow Name.

>>51668019
>However, you can choose anything you want as a *dedicated too*. This will always provide Paradox mitigation. If the dedicated tool is otherwise semiotically appropriate for a particular spell, it may also count as a Order to Path tool Yantra.
Does that mean using it as a tool twice, two actions using up two yantra slots, or is that just one yantra with a Paradox bonus.
>>51668089
Don't forget that one of the suggested forms a Mirror can take is a container filled with water. So every Cup also serves as a Mirror and there's never any reason to get a Mirror. Except if you're in a desert, I guess.

Salt is suitable Moros path tool under minerals right?

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You didn't think I'd forgotten you all, did you?
Thrice Great took quite a while to do, and I'm not even sure I'm that happy with them as they are.
Unfortunately due to the way the Magic system works (especially with the Gauntlet and Withstand) in 2e, many of their Attainments seem weaker than in 1e.

However in other ways, with Optional Arcana I managed to fit in a few other saucy jewels for you all.

Needless to say the Thrice Great are a Legacy that specialises in Ritual Casting in groups, so a few of their initial attainments start with that. Not sure how well those will go in actual play unless the entire group are Hermetics, or you've got a great GM who lets you do a lot of stuff with your Legacy, but we'll see.

The hardest part was without a doubt trying to fit their Planetary Affinities into the yantra system. So basically I made them a +1/+2/+3 Legacy Yantra depending on how many affinities you could sensibly fit into the spell, and then added a 2-dot Attainment which enhances that with an 8-Again if you peform a ritual (but only for a few seconds), so you can hyper-charge your Yantra, then cast an instant spell, or seek to harmonize that with another Mage's extended spell casting.

Also at the third dot, you can cast combined spells with Planetary Affinities easier. Which means its more possible to combine two spells, and maybe even get up to that delicious full-7-planet Yantra.

I'm now going to take a little look at the Uncrowned Kings, they should at least be nice and easy.

What is the symbolic relevance of Death Twilight state to the Material? Why are there sometimes ruins of structures in Twilight that aren't in the Material?

>>51668837
>Does that mean using it as a tool twice, two actions using up two yantra slots, or is that just one yantra with a Paradox bonus.

These questions has been posed to DaveB many times without a response.

Maybe we'll finally receive an answer if and when the Mage 2e FAQ is ever released.

>>51668949
>Why are there sometimes ruins of structures in Twilight that aren't in the Material?

Sounds like a great Mystery to solve for some XP.

>>51668949
Because they used to be in the material, and they were old and loved/feared/whatever, so they created a ghost-building when the actual building was destroyed.

>>51660833
Late reply but what are the 10 auspices? I thought there was only 5?

>>51669012
>10 auspice
He meant 10 auspice gifts, 2 per auspice.

>>51668980
I always thought you can only channel your dedicates tool for only one thing. Either as a Yantra bonus or Pardox mitigator

>The Black Furies are a matriarchal clan who don’t want to help the humans until they sort out their gender rights,
What did Dracula mean by this.

>>51668944
Awesome.

Can you throw Bokors and/or Clavicularii onto the pile?

>>51669076
Kek, so they've been sitting on their asses for the entirety of human history?

>>51669099
That's what I assume it means, a bunch of women sit around and move goal posts. while men do all the work.

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Is there an Antediluvian/Archmage equivalent for Werewolf: The Apocalypse?

Running a high-powered campaign in a couple of weeks and it would be nice to represent each of the three main gamelines.

>>51669533
There is a rank 6 Legend rank for werewolves. It has one super powered gift per auspice for it. But it hardly compares to the higher tiered power of vampires or mages.
The high ranking spirits they commune with are the closest bet within the gameline to even hvae a chance to be on an even playing field with those two classes of characters.

>>51669533
Maeljin.
Vairous Wyrm-spirits like Eater-of-Souls and such.

>>51669099
I'd rather they sit their asses on my diiiiiiiiiiick

WOO! Gimme 5!

>>51669573
The Antediluvians aren't exactly in the same league as the Incarna/Celestines, such as Gaia and The Triat. Archmages by definition can evolve into entities at least as strong as them. Even at the high end of things crossover isn't exactly feasible.

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Can someone give me a quick rundown on the bogdanoff wraith?

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So yeah, the Uncrowned Kings.
They were really boring to make.

Firstly their entire MO is that they're about modifying your own Mind, by enhancing it by finding worth in what there is. No Goetia, no memory erasure, no fucking with other's minds. Great for fluff, shitty for designing a legacy based off of existing abilities.

Secondly, and even worse, they're a Prime-Secondary Legacy. So a Moros who wants to be any good as these guys has to firstly learn Mind, and secondly learn Prime, which they can't even get as a Ruling Arcanum. Why isn't this an Obrimos Legacy again? Who. Fucking. Knows.

Thirdly (and this is a tad petty), their Attainments are named after 3 of the 4 steps of the process for forging a Philosopher's tone in 1e. Now in 2e with 5 attainments, I can finally use the forth name... And have one with no fucking name. WONDERFUL. Fucking fantastic.

Fourthly, I had to try and introudce further restraints on thei Attainments in order to justify some of the most excessive Reach level breaching I've ever done. However ultimately I feel this is justified as ultimately there are a billion better ways to enhance your mental attributes than with Legacy Attainments, so if you want to do it that way, I should at least make it feasible.

Also their Yantras are garbage, and easily stackable to bullshit degrees. For example, use Crafts to create a Sacrament, that's two +2s, then also make something else useful to the spell for another +2. It's just... So booooring.

>>51669076
So in the modern day they should be helping out humans, right? Women have all the same rights under the law, and the wage gap is a myth.

>>51670274
>Giovanni bow to Bogdanoffs
>In contact with Ka Luon
>Possess Numina
>Control france with an iron but fair fist
>Own castles & banks globally
>Direct descendants of the ancient royal blood line of Enoch
>Will bankroll the first cities in the deep umbra (Bogdangrad will be be the first city)
>Own 99% of DNA editing research facilities on Earth
>First ubermensch babies will in all likelihood be Bogdanoff babies
>both brothers said to have 215+ IQ, such intelligence on Earth has only existed deep in Tibetan monasteries & Area 51
>Ancient Akashic scriptures tell of two messengers who will descend upon Earth and will bring an era of enlightenment and unprecedented technological progress with them
>They own bane R&D labs around the world
>You likely have Bogdabanes inside you right now
>The Bogdanoffs are in regular communication with the Morning star, forwarding the word of Satan to the Orthodox Church. Who do you think set up the meeting between the pope & the Orthodox high command (First meeting between the two organisations in over 1000 years) and arranged the Orthodox leader’s first trip to Antarctica in history literally a few days later to the Bogdanoff bunker in Wilkes land?
>They learned fluent French in under a week
>Nation states entrust their gold reserves with the twins. There’s no gold in Ft. Knox, only Ft. Bogdanoff
>The twins are about 7 decades old, from the space-time reference point of the base human currently accepted by our society
>In reality, they are timeless beings existing in all points of time and space from the big bang to the end of the universe. We don’t know their ultimate plans yet. We hope they’re benevolent beings.

>>51670484

>god tried to usurp the real rulers of the universe, who used a 9 dot effect of the 10th sphere to create the 'bog bang'
>caine and lucifer fear but respect the bogdanoffs
>the ebon dragon and gaia directly serve them
>they understand that humanity's true potential can only be unlocked if they conquer the wyrm, the weaver, and the wyld by themselves

>>51670484
>>51670614

You guys are smokin' some shit.

>>51670484
>>51670614
Is this from published material?

>>51670811

It's been hinted at since the first rulebooks. They've been setting this up for years, it's a shame that one world of darkness is just going to throw it all away.

>>51670811
It's from the setting book /pol/: the Truth.

>>51670887
>the setting book /pol/: the Truth.
Sounds better than a lot of recent WoD material...

>>51669573

So would it be easier then, to just ignore Apocalypse and stick with Antediluvians and Archmages? Is there any way I could bump up the Weres?

>>51670299
You know you bring up an interesting question. Since legacy attainments are free from the lie there are a couple interesting questions when using Prime on non-mages. Like using a legacy attainment that grants people mage sight.

>>51670917
Alpha/Beta/Omega LARP?

>>51670299
I always thought they were a Matter secondary legacy.

>>51670917
>Is there any way I could bump up the Weres?

No. Nobody likes werewolves. They should all be put down.

>>51671217

At least werewolves are better than those pathetic changelings.

>>51670917
>Is there any way I could bump up the Weres?
Not without significant changes to the cosmology. You could always house rule something like an Incarna possessing a werewolf or something silly but there is no real cannon method to buff werewolves short of Samuel Haight style shenanigans. You could always give one a branch of the world tree if you really feel like it though.

>>51671000

Does anyone like roleplaying?

>>51671274
I forgot, abominations (embraced werewolves) are cannon. So you could just have a werewolf vampire at that generation, but that sounds almost more convoluted than Sam Haight.

>>51671293

>what if I embraced a werewolf

and then the world was destroyed because caine is retarded

>>51670917
Should just ignore both. Not even an Antediluvian is going to match an Archmage with a high enough Arete.

>>51653222
I want to make a World of Darkness clone in the vein of OSR D&D. Simpler with less fiddly bits and powers to keep track of.

>>51671336
>TFW one of the 2nd generation was an Abominations and that's where Protean comes from

>>51670917
Blame pop-culture powerful elder wolves aren't really a big part of werewolf lore.

>>51670811
It's from Changeling the Dreaming: The Kingdom of Hunger (the Armenian genocide book)

>>51671364
>powerful elder wolves aren't really a big part of werewolf lore
They were in Astounding Wolf-Man though.

3 dudes turned into a wolf? How to tell which is the vampire, the werewolf, and the mage?

>>51671545

First, did the change happen during the day?

>>51671564
It was at night under the moon

>>51671545
The real question is which one is the best one?

The answer is the mage.

>>51671545

Are *you* a vampire, werewolf, or a mage?

>>51671604
A hunter

>>51671545

It's an easy question. Which wolf can turn the other wolves into lawn furniture?

So what are buried materials path tools? Needs more precise wording. When is Signs of Sorcery

>>51671545
Cut off a paw.

Does the wound bleed? No? Vampire.

Does it bleed? Yes? Mage.

Does the paw turn back into a human hand? Yes? Werewolf.

>mage supremacy

>>51671623
>When is Signs of Sorcery

Right after Dave' releases the Mage FAQ and legacy and antagonist material.

I'm guessing GenCon 2020.

>>51671671
>>mage supremacy

Shapechanging supremacy?

>>51671674
Didn't DaveB say he'd be releasing Legacies piecemeal as he had to write them for his groups?

>>51671674
>GenCon 2020.
Anon don't be absurd.

I would say 2030 at the earliest.

Lol at that no fun allowed guy who does not accept other people having a bit broader interpretation of Path Tools and Yantras. Considers players getting a bonus dice which is capped by Gnosis as "player abuse"

>>51671711
>bit broader interpretation of Path Tools and Yantras.

Using practically anything you want as a Yantra is more than a "bit" broader than the clear rules on Yantras, to say nothing about how it obviates key merits and one of the biggest advantages of legacies.

Anon, no one is stopping you from house-ruling anything you want. However, it's not an "interpretation" of the rules, it's a wholesale revision.

>>51671775
>Use almost anything as a +1 Yantra
Perish the thought

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>>51671711
>pouting words

Oh boo boo, let me play a sad song for ya on the worlds smallest violin

>>51671787

Penalties abound for Factors at -2 per step, and bonuses are rarer, particularly because Yantras are limited by Gnosis. Every +1 counts.

It's also why the Shadow Name/Cabal Theme Merits (+1 to +4) are so good, since beside the bonus, they also provide additional Yantras that emphasize character style and themes..

>>51671787

If you want more unique Yantras, give greater emphasis to Sacrament Yantras.

>>51671775
Being anal about a player wasting his precious Yantra slots on +1s when there are more powerful +2 and +3 Yantras easily obtained by other means.

>>51671830
Indeed, which is why using a piddly little +1 is such a waste compared to the larger, meatier yantras. Until Gnosis 3 you can only use 2 yantras, and if you're not pushed then one will be High Speech.
Your remaining 1-2 would be better spent on something more than a +1.

>>51671840
I do, sacrament is fantastic.
So is sympathy. A lock of their hair? Flat up +2. Fantastic for healing and buffs.

>>51671856

Besides High Speech, which takes extra time, there are few "standard" Yantras besides Rote Mundras that provide more than a +1 that can be easily employed or don't have inherent downsides.

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>>51671830
Unrelated but this is how I imagine a group who've all taken Shadow Name and Cabal theme.

>>51671869

I, too, like Sacrament Yantras, but remember both that they're one use items and they still need to be semiotically linked to the intended spell.

>>51671875

What Path is Walker, Texas Ranger?

>>51671888
Yeah but you get to make a voodoo doll. That's always fun.

And it's a good way to remind your PC's that expression and crafts aren't just for flavor

>>51671899
Obrimos with Life imo.

>>51671875

Probably the worst and most embarrassing example of a Shadow Name /Cabal Theme Merit is that goofy baseball-themed cabal from the Chicago sourcebook and some of the fiction. I believe they were called the Game of Geometric Perfection. I'm glad Khnosu kicked their ass in most recent Mage Fiction Anthology.

I also almost forgot the ridiculous pirate-themed cabal from the Boston sourcebook. Oy vey...matey

>>51671899
>>51671923
>What Path is Walker, Texas Ranger?

I know there's got to be a joke about Chuck Norris kicking Exarch ass, but I'm just too tired to think of it.

>>51671938
I don't know what it is about the Cabal theme merit. Every game I've run, even with 'serious roll-play' groups, once it comes time to choose a cabal theme it turns into improv comedy.

Since part of Prime's purview is Yantras, can it allow use of non-standard or free-form yantras or provide greater spellcasting bonuses with regular Yantras, besides that provided by As Above, So Below's 8 or 9 Again dice trick?

>>51671994
I mean Prime 5 could probably force anything to function as a yantra for the duration of the spell. But that's really more trouble than it's worth.

>>51672004

True, but I was thinking more along the lines of something from a Prime 2 or 3 Practice.

Can Platonic Form create yantras?

>>51671910
>expression and crafts aren't just for flavor

That's crazy talk.

Expression and crafts are useless in featureless white rooms.

>>51668944
Shouldn't you list the Path/Order the Legacy is associated with? And don't further attainments have further ability requirements.

>>51663299
>it's a retarded anglos think the immaculate conception refers to the virgin birth episode again

>>51671339
Yeah, but it's impossible for both parties to collide. Archmages are locked off from the Consensus and can't actually turn Caine into a lawn chair.

>Vampire Supremacy

>>51670374
nah, not in some remote villages in Africa and in Saudi Arabia. So the Furies continue to blame all of humanity for the missteps of the few and continue to murder

>>51672455
Didn't Sam Haight travel to one of those locked of realms and kill one?
>Skin Dancer Supremacy

>>51670907
Worship of the Great God Kek grants special powers

>>51672491
A shit posting Entropy using Virtual Adept type is really the only way to play Mage.

>>51672455
That doesn't invalidate the fact that an Archmage would fuck up Caine in a boxing match. Just a coward hiding behind a consensual shield, he is.

Another day, and still I pray for Dark Eras Companion.

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>>51672510

>Caine in a boxing match

Could Muhammad Ali take on Caine?

>>51672654
>Can a man awaken while performing sports and perform outrageous feats of magic?

>>51672668
what do you think the Akashic Brotherhood is?

>>51672510
>>51672668
>using magic in a boxing match
Didn't know mages were cheating scrubs

>>51672770
>Actually fair match based on skills and dice rolls instead of disciplines v Caine.
Hmmmmmm. This could go either way.

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>>51672770
Mages cheat reality.

That's their thing.

>>51672810
>having no sense of honor
No wonder magefags are dicks

>>51672817
Honor isn't as empowering as the hubris required to become a god.

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I just had a daydream of a WoD movie that is directed and cinemographed as an 80s grindhouse flick. I think thats actually the best way you could make a WoD movie to be honest.

>>51653222
>If you had created the World of Darkness, how would it be different?

It's already perfect, Anon.

>>51673027
I pictured all of that in my head for a good minute.

It really works.

>>51653222
>If you had created the World of Darkness, how would it be different?
The world doesn't end in the year 2000.

>>51673122
My thoughts were the aesthetic of a grindhouse flick will help people overcome their suspension of disbelief so they can put up with the grimdark edgy themes of the story with comedic relief every once in awhile with totally ridiculous scenes.

>>51673150
Plus you could use a synthwave soundtrack

>>51673150
That makes complete sense, in all honesty.

I'm actually kind of upset that this will never happen. Unless an Archmaster decrees it.

>>51672817
>What is the Adamantine Arrow

>>51673373
The worst Order to join

>Mysterium supremacy

https://docs.google.com/document/d/12cs9dkwNA6d3rmNFau2wYm5sNMxSZ2ZOMTBwTU-LvRM/pub

Fuck I dunno, first time making something, may as well show it to you boys.

>>51673482
I don't know enough about Changeling to critique anything but I applaud the effort.

>>51673446
GotV is worst Order to join.

But Mysterium is best though.

>>51673567
>I don't know enough about Changeling
They make for great lawn chairs

Ever been in a game where you let yourself be captured bynhuman traffickers to infiltrate them? I guess it would work for Werewolves or Mages but it would be too risky for vamps if due to sunlight, needing to sleep during the day.

I heard a rumour that Aspel left. Is that true?

>>51674112
If you are a vampire, why not just Ghoul/Dominate them?

>>51674186
To maintain cover

>>51674209
But if you were worried about being discovered because of burning in sunlight, ghouling one of the Traffickers to feed you information would be easier and safer.

>>51672212
I don't bother with that because it's fluff and literally anyone can join any legacy so long as they have the appropriate Praxis.

Also most later attainments don't require anything more than an increased Gnosis.

>>51674112
Don't know about Werewolves, but there is literally no reason for vamps or mages to infiltrate any human organization, especially one full of bad guys.

Vamps could use Obfuscate or any number of their mental Disciplines to gain info, or they could just straight up ghoul a trafficker, or at least another human to infiltrate for them.

As for Mages, Scrying, Mind magic, invisibility, hiding in Twilight, hiding in shadows, magically bugging phones and computers, sending ghosts as spies, sending spirits as spies, and any number of tricks would be better than putting themselves in a position where they would be under Sleeper scrutiny and therefore unable to use vulgar magic if things get hairy.

I'm trying to shit on you, but if you want to have a infiltration story you'll need to find a good reason to justify it.

So I stopped paying attention to WoD awhile back. Last time I checked in, I think there was some kind of Changeling The Lost 2.0 being worked on? Did that go anywhere, and is it any good?

Did the fantastic art survive?

>>51674425
You make it sound so easy for fresh character creation mages to just sit someplace and not to infiltrate. Have you stopped to consider that they are infiltrating because there is a Mystery afoot?

>>51674466
It's being worked on, but like all things at OPP, it'll take four to five more years to get finished and, if their last two released, Ascension 20th Anniversary and Beast are an indication, will be utterly devoid of anything quality. I mean, aren't some of the kickstarters they did STILL not completed with stretch material and such?

>>51671899

None.

He is a Homid Philodox Stargazer who left the tribe to pursue justice.

>>51674468
3/5ths of mages have access to some form of invisibility from char-gen. It'd have to be a hell of mystery to put yourself in direct danger.

Interview with Dracula on the Werewolf game.

https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2017/02/10/white-wolf-world-of-darkness-rebirth/

Oh goodie, we're going to back to HYPER STEREOTYPE WEREFOLK.

>>51671348
>I want to make a World of Darkness clone in the vein of OSR D&D. Simpler with less fiddly bits and powers to keep track of

Then I suggest you get the free demo/introductory packs from RPGnow. They use d6s and cut out merits and gifts but still have enough of the rules in them that you could homebrew something interesting from them.

>>51675460
I can't quite put my finger on it, but this Werewolf game and the supposed future of the World of Darkness gives me a bad feeling.

Like, I'm almost dead certain that this won't end well, but I don't know why.

Maybe it's because they're basically saying the game will be Fur(r)y: The Social and Political Commentating, or maybe it's because they're saying they're going back to the "IMPENDING DOOM" atmosphere, which I never liked.

Probably both of those things and more.

>>51675460
>guy with amputated legs hanging from the ceiling suspended by his pierced testicles

What is that art trying to convey?

>>51675460
>So now there is this very tense situation within the Garou nation, where the Glass Walkers say humans still have a shot and that they can use technology to get out of the situation. “Look at Elon Musk,” they’d say, though maybe he is a Glass Walker. On the other hand are the Red Talons who say, “look at the rate of species extinction; listen to all the dead spirits of extinct species we’re talking to, screaming for vengeance. Let’s go kill them.”

>And in between all of that you have all of the other tribes who have their own ideas about how to deal with humanity and what we’ve done wrong. The Black Furies are a matriarchal clan who don’t want to help the humans until they sort out their gender rights, The Get of Fenris who just laugh at all of those social aims and say it’s about survival of the fittest, and they should go into all-out war to see if humans can survive.

>So it’s not Captain Planet. It’s nature red in tooth and claw.

>We’re doing other projects too though. Two mobile games called Preludes, which take people from mortal to vampire, or from sleeper to awakened. The first is a Vampire game, which has two freshly made vampires in LA chatting over a messenger app, trying to work out what’s going on. It’s very contemporary and it’s about class in the US. The other is a Mage: The Ascension game set during the War for Reality, at the backdrop of the refugee crisis of 2015, looking into perceptions of people. Are they a threat or are they neighbours we don’t know yet?

>>51675676
Dracula's neck of the woods, apparently WoD was also well-regarded for it's social commentary, and Dracula wants to go back to that.

I'm still going to remain hopeful for vampire (I like the concept of rolling back elder bullshit, as much as I love played elder characters), but not much else.

Part of why, like >>51675521, I'm working (loosely) on a supernatural heartbreaker of a vampire game.

>>51675676
The 90's were a mistake.

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I really dislike the design direction Dracula is choosing for werewolf.

>>51675778
I'm more worried about all the fucked up amputated abominations.

>>51675803

They both look bad. One looks like an anorexic skinnyfat werewolf and the other is edgy abd taking itself too seriously if they are suppose to be fomori.

>World of Darkness has never been a safe place. It’s never been a fantasy place where you are protected from the harsh realities of life; it’s reality but worse, more terrifying.

I get the feeling Dracula hates Tolkein and D&D style games. He is a funny guy.

>>51675839
He called out 'urban fantasy' as a shit genre a year ago, not realizing that EVERYTHING he now owns and is publishing is urban fantasy.

>>51673573

Nigga please
>silver ladder>mysterium>adamantine arrow>guardians of the veil>free council

>>51675875
'Dracula' lacks self-awareness I don't believe you. Next you'll tell me Phil Bruccato is a fucking hack who's off his meds again.

>>51675460

>The balance between gnosis and rage is a super-interesting thing to play with. These things have mechanical effects; it’s not just light side and dark side. It affects how long they can maintain their forms, or how they can work with spirits.

I see butthurt over Glabro/Crinos/Hispo durations is still throbbing and radiant. If this faggot wants it to be Forsaken he should just make a Forsaken video game.

>>51675899
Bullshit

Arrow>Free Council/Silver Ladder>Guardians>Mysterium

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This nigga looks DYEL

What happened to nine foot tall swole as fuck engines of destruction who Hulk out?

>>51675936
Werewolves are fuccbois now? I dunno.

>>51675913
But how can he push his really dated 90's fantasy schlock if he did that?

>>51675899
>>51675921
Listen here fuckers

Mysterium>Free Council>Arrow>Silver Ladder>Apostate>GotV

>>51675701
>It’s very contemporary and it’s about class in the US
See, the problem with using fantasy games as allegories is that they're fantasy; in the real world you won't become a billionaire by eating Bill Gates

>>51675976
Are we talking fluff or mechanics?

>>51675989
Fluff.

>>51675936
I think they made the correct choice by pandering to furries, it will sell like hot cakes and every NPC in the game will get fanart forever

>>51676000
I fucking hate you. But you're probably right.

>>51676000

You moron, furries love huge beasts and bara anthro men.

>>51675997
In that case

Arrow>Guardians>Mysterium>Free Council>Silver Ladder>>>>Seers

>>51675988
I have a bad feeling it's going to be gypsies 2.0.

>>51676000

I just want to turn into a big guy and wreck shit with fun combat mechanics, but his interview makes it soubd like they are prioritizing an isometric BG rpg or a bad first person game where the whole transformation thing will come off as very superfluous.

What is the fucking point if it all looks mostly the same regardless of the form you are in?

>>51676031
Dont' forget twenty-tittied seven-cocked herms!

Unknowable Supernal God knocked me up. What do?

>>51676290

Get child support from his dumb ass.

>>51674425
What about blank badges? Going into mortal places is literally their whole gimmick.

>>51675875
>>51675902
>EVERYTHING he now owns and is publishing is urban fantasy

n-no you don't understand, WoD is a game of personal horror!

>>51676420

This is just my opinion but I don't feel like you can convey horror very well through TTRPGs designed to be a group activity, especially ones that give you cool magical fight powers.

Maybe if it was mortals in a small or 1-on-1 game... but i'd rather read a spooky book or watch a movie for the same horror thrill sensation.

>>51676501
You can, everyone has to be on the same page with the understanding of the intent of the game you're running. This is where the concept of BADWRONGFUN comes from, which I wish wasn't a thing. If I want to run a Vampire game that's Underworld-inspired, that's my right to do so. If I want to run a horror game in the vein of Let Me In, that's my right to do so as well.

This shit is why our community is so divided, one of many reasons.

>>51676648

Can you even spook a party of mages without heavy handed ST fiat?

>>51676683
If the players are invested in and agreeing to play a horror game, and you have an idea of things that can, yes.

Not every mage game is played as Arete/Gnosis 5-6 many Arcana/Spheres at 3+ shit guys.

>>51676683
Abyssal Intruder, Entity from the Lower reaches, Timori, Tremere.

There's no shortage of antagonists that defy understanding or you just don't want to be anywhere near.

>>51676501
This.

It's hard to claim you're a game of "personal horror" when every second book lets you go (and sometimes requires you to) go loud

>>51676683
Depends. Does the environment cancelling out their magic count as fiat?

>>51675921

The "muh murica democracy" order not as the worst? Shame on you.

>>51677680
They're dumb but not as dumb as spending your life hoarding cool artifacts just to jack off to it with your buddies in your secret club house.

The Mysterium is the Mage equivalent to basement dwelling fa/tg/uys. I get enough of that shit IRL.

>>51675460
I thought the art they showed for that werewolf game looked neat. Not going to get too hyped until we get more info or at least a solid genre but I didn't see anything especially worrying in that interview. Pleasantly excited so far.
Hope I can play as a homeless hick like Gaia intended

>>51677895

It doesn't look like Apocalypse, if that is what they are selling it as. Even the W20 era artists understood that the warforms need to be swole and intimidating, and made nods to the artists who designed the look and feel for WtA during its 2e and Revised editions.

As a WtA fan, where the cool ultraviolent and often over the top art was a huge draw to buying the books, its really disappointing to see DYEL werewolves with weirdly drawn heads and edgy Silent Hill knock off fomori that look designed by people taking it way too seriously.

>>51677954
Well it's still super early so I doubt they have everything set in stone but I admit I don't really care that much about the designs of the werewolves as long as the actual game is fun but of course we don't have any idea about that and won't for a while. Right now though I'm not dreading it or anything so that's a plus

>>51678045

Its a visual medium, string visuals inform the player abd provide both clarity abd satisfaction from well designed feedback. A game's aesthetics do matter despite how much /v/ is want to protest it.

Skinny malnourished werewolves wouldn't send the right visual message when you are trying to convince your audience that Crinos form is a nine foot tall engine of destruction. Exaggerated? Yes. Riduculous? Insofar as it aids in giving them presence and weight. People love Space Marines because they look so huge and destructive. If they were more skinny or beanstock looking you would get cries of 'weeaboo shit', probably because a lot of anime has weedy protagonists doing Herculean feats despite their starved east Asian physiques.

>>51678149
I'm not going to get too excited either way until we get some actual information about it and see the final designs. I suggest you do the same. Games tend to change a shit ton from this section to the final one and there's no reason to get upset about it right now

>>51678179

Truth. I am more worried about the direction WtA will take on the table top side of things. Dracula's rumblings so far have been vague and not that confidence inspiring. Maybe I was expecting too much? Everyone having the limp noodle equivalent of their End Times might go wrong. Or maybe it will go right?

>>51678495

>>51676420
Personal horror is urban fantasy for faggots and loonies who live vicariously through their ocs