/CofD/ &/wodg/ Chronicles of Darkness and World of Darkness

>>51557678
Clans are fine as they are. We could use more anomalies like the Neglatu, though.

>>51557678
>Do you think there should be more Clans in Requiem, rather than bloodlines?

I actually think there should be less Clans. In fact, no Clans. But plenty of Bloodlines.

"Clan" is essentially meaningless in Requiem, since its only effect is to determine starting disciplines and weakness, but has no broader game impact. Covenant ends up being the actually important choice for a vampire.

>>51557746

I guess that could make sense, what with no Antediluvians and no Jyhad going on in the background. They don't really have progenitors to make them organized into some semblance of hierarchies.

>>51557678
What other niches could there even be?

You've got the leader clan, you've got the socialite clan, you've got the brutish clan, you've got the sneaky clan and you've got the monstrous clan. What others do you really need that couldn't just be specialized bloodlines of those five?

>>51557778

Tzimisce.

>>51557779
Could easily be a Nosferatu bloodline.

Is using mind-affecting Disciplines on other vampires (or humans, I suppose) considered socially unacceptable and/or immoral?

>>51557858
>immoral
Most vampires tend to settle around Humanity 4 and tend to laugh at the idea of morality. Is it a social faux pas? Probably. It is immoral? Vampires, by and large, are amoral.

Moral vampires are either anomalies or neonates.

>>51557778

Heck, Nosferatu are pretty obsolote as it is anyway.

Ventrue are leaders and puppetmasters. The lordly vampire.
Daeva are socialites, demagogues and rebels. The seducing vampire.
Gangrel are the physical powerhouses and survivors. They also embody the bestial vampire.
Mekhet are the mysteries, the shadows, the spies. They embody the shadow vampire, the sorcerer.

Nosferatu are both physical, which is more of a gangrel niche and sneaky which is now more of a mekhet niche. Most of the Nosferatu bloodlines (like the plague one) are now Mekhet bloodlines etc. The only thing Nosferatu have going for them is to be scary. They don't have much inherent depth compared to the others.

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I only care about Unmaking

Don't really care about patterning or unraveling, could easily do without fraying and weaving, ruling, shielding and veiling just don't matter, compelling is a thing of the past but I really (really) love unmaking

>>51557928
Gangrel would need to be made more inherently monstrous in order to fill the same niche as Nosferatu. There's all sorts of unpleasant vampires in media that would go without a clan to cover them if the Nosferatu were eliminated.

>>51557778
>What other niches could there even be?

According to oWoD, there's seven.

The Brutish Clan
The Animal Clan
The Insane Clan
The Sneaky Clan
The Social Clan
The Magic Clan
The Leader Clan

>>51557890
>It is immoral? Vampires, by and large, are amoral.
Yeah, it probably would have been better to just ask whether it could cause a drop in a Humanity.

>>51558005

Where do Followers of Set and the Giovanni fit in?

I guess that Lasombra falls into the Leader Clan archetype.

>>51558056
The non-Camarilla clans more filled specific niches created by the oWoD itself. But the seven Camarilla clans were designed the same way the five Requiem clans were; each is based on a vampire stereotype.

>>51557953

Sure they have some niches, but most of them have been usurped by gangrel and Mekhet.

Nosferatu used to have more spies and mysterious things in V:tM. For example, I'd classify the Morbus as more of a Nosferatu bloodline than a Mekhet one.

Now Mekhet are the spies and the mysterious vampires. A lot of ways to take them.

Gangrel are the phsical vampires and also embody bestial vampires. There are also a ton of ways to take that thing.

Whereas Nosferatu have been stripped of most of their 'features' or paths. They've only got 'scary' going for them. There are only so many ways you can do unnerving and scary, especially when things like plague and the brothers of ypres are apparently Mekhet territory.

Nosferatu are my favourite clan, but I feel like they need one other defining aspect to make them a bit more... i dunno prominent, have a place. You can say they're the outcasts but Gangrel are also outcasts/loners and Mekhet also stand apart from other kindred.

>>51558005
Animal and Brute can be combined very easily, making the nWoD Gangrel. There's no real need for them to be separate.
There's no need for a specialist Magic clan, all vampires use some sort of magic in VtR.
I don't really recall any sort of vampire in media that revolves around insanity, except for Malkavians from VtM. There's no real reason for that niche.

Which leaves:
>The brutish, feral clan.
>The artistic, social clan.
>The regal, ruling clan.
>The sneaky, spying clan.
That covers most sorts of vampires you find in media, except for the monstrous, horrific looking sort of vampire that's blatantly an inhuman monster. Which leads the creation of:
>The nightmarish, monstrous clan.
Nosferatu are sort of a fifth wheel and don't work so well with the rest mechanically, but this does a good job of getting rid of unnecessary niches that don't really fit vampires.

>>51557947
You'd need to understand and internalize all of those to be capable of unmaking though.

>>51557746

Clan is still important in a mechanical sense, if not in the same setting degree as VtM. Broad archetypes are good for people new to the system, with Bloodlines being a special bonus for people who get more comfortable with the game and want to specialize.

>>51558107
>Animal and Brute can be combined very easily

Sure, if you like, but then so could Social and Leader, leading me to ask why you'd bother with the Daeva and Ventrue at the same time? There is no less overlap between the two archetypes than there is between the Brujah and the Gangrel.

>>51557746
There's a pattern in nWoD/CoD splats.

>Come up with a character idea.
>Choose one out of a number base templates that best supports the character idea. These could be Clans, Paths, Auspices, Seemings, etc. These affect the mechanics of your character and the foundation of your character's identity, which you can then build on.
>Choose one out of a number of social groups that your character will be affiliated with based on its attitude. These could be Covenants, Orders, Tribes, Courts, etc. These define who your character will be interacting with in the game, how they will be interacting with them and helps detail their personality.

Covenants, Tribes, Orders and so on are meant to be the more important thing that you care about a lot more in the game and define how you socialize with others. Clans, Auspices, Paths and so on are just meant to be helpful bases and foundations for you to build your character from. They might occasionally be a roleplaying point, but there's no reason why they should be the focus of politics.

>>51558318
There's a distinction between those two archetypes of vampire in media. Ventrue are the regal, domineering Bram Stoker's Dracula sorts that dominate others and sway those around them with their presence while Daeva are embodied by Anne Rice's Lestat, who is much more whimsical, playful and seductive and far less regal and commanding.

Meanwhile, there's evidence of more bestial sorts of vampires in folklore and media but there's nothing that Brujahs really mesh with. Are there really any stories out there about vampires that are passionate but brutish firebrands, in comparison to the number of stories about brutal blood-sucking beasts that haunt the night?

Throwing out some musings I have had on the WtA tribes and looking for feedback.

Silver Fangs and Shadow Lords are entrenched deeply in similar themes of leadership, differing on their choice of method, but also historically, they are heavily based in slav and eurasian royalty/nobility. With that in mind I am considering a soft retcon of Shadow Lords being a Silver Fangs splinter or possibly a Silver Fang lodge that went hard against the grain and became a full-fledged Tribe after they failed to usurp power and the monarchists failed to eradicate the Shadow Lord usurpers in turn. Basically a bunch of werewolf dukes and barons going off doing their own thing when their king proved to be too ineffectual to stop them.

Glass Walkers and Bone Gnawers should be rebranded back into one single tribe; the Iron Masters. The division comes more from focuses on the strata of human class structure than any full blown tribal identity; to that extent, they're both more like two ur-Lodges working within the same system but unofficially competing against each other. At the end of the day though, they're the only wolves sticking it out in the Weaver tainted, Wyrm corrupted hell that a lot of metropoli are, and they stick together like one big dysfunctional family. Also, a bigger emphasis on their presence in Asia.

Fianna, Get of Fenris and White Howlers all typify the 'warrior tribe' ideal. I can't see enough huge distinctions between them to make each a seperate Tribe, especially the Fianna whose focuses have been limited to Ireland and parts of the UK. They have a lot of ties to (proto) Celtic/Germanic/Nordic peoples. Basically all the major enemies of Rome.

>>51558559

(Con't)


Silent Striders should have a deeper Eurasian connection. Asia has roughly ~55% of the wolf populations in the world, it feels very weird that Garou have such a limited presence outside of North America and Europe. Possibly strengthen their connection with the Stargazers? Both tribes occupy this weird spot where I don't even consider them Tribes but more an affiliation of non-eurocentric Garou. Emphasis on both tribes exploring the depths of the Umbra for answers over facing the reality of the materium.

Children of Gaia are much maligned thanks to their Revised tribebook. Dial them back to their 2e literature. Place more emphasis on them being WARRIOR-diplomats. Explore the seedier nature that comes with taking in every stray, lone wolf and Metis and indoctrinating them. Children of Gaia only place nice on the surface; they would not have stopped the Impergium or survived to the modern day in Garou society if they were meek.

Black Furies no longer a tribe. Works better as a free-wheeling lodge or similar affiliation. Drop the man-hating militant feminist crap, focus on their role as guardians of sacred sites, protectors of relics and ancient lore. Keep the mythology of them having ties back to the Amazons. Take some cues from Wonder Woman? - basically an order of lady-paladin-werewolves led by ruthlessly cunning crones. Kinfolk Sorcerers uncomfortably common, possible ties to Mages. Ties to mythological components like Brigid or Medea. Cut out crazy Wyld worship.

Red Talons double down on the Wyld instead. Less anti-humanity and only-partakes-of-the-wolf, more violently anti-Weaver. Wants to bomb everything back to prehistoric levels. Have an uncomfortably close working relationship with Ratkin. Spends too much time in the Umbra.

>>51558107
>I don't really recall any sort of vampire in media that revolves around insanity
I believe that draws to some the compulsory acts like having an addiction to counting, so that you can trick them by knocking over a bag full of lice

>>51558107
>I don't really recall any sort of vampire in media that revolves around insanity, except for Malkavians from VtM. There's no real reason for that niche.

There is Drusilla from Buffy, she has prophetic powers as well so she's definately the closest to the idea of a Malkavian.

>>51558478
>Are there really any stories out there about vampires that are passionate but brutish firebrands

Lost Boys and Buffy the Vampire Slayer (TV series) spring immediately to mind, or at least I'd class them as being much more "Brujah" then "Gangrel" using oWoD terms.

Your distinction between Ventrue and Daeva, as well, seems somewhat artificial and predicated on the era in which the stories are being written, rather than a meaningful distinction. It also leaves something to be desired: the original Dracula would more easily be described as a Nosferatu (for the terror he constantly inspires and the sense that something about him isn't right that everyone gets on meeting him) or a somewhat crafty Gangrel (for his shape-shifting, mastery over animals, and fundamentally brutish nature) than a Ventrue, while the classic cinema depictions of Dracula could slide comfortably into Daeva as much as Ventrue.

My point is that it's not wrong to decide to blend oWoD's Brujah and Gangrel; it's just not any more "natural" than leaving a divide between Ventrue and Daeva. There's plenty of room to split the nWoD Clans.

>>51558559
>>51558569
You're going through the same 'musings' the writers of Werewolf the Forsaken have. Just steal the tribes from WtF and be done with it.

Blood Talons for fighty werewolves.
Bone Shadows for magic werewolves.
Hunters in Darkness for sneaky werewolves.
Iron Masters for modern werewolves.
Storm Lord for leader werewolves.

That's the logical conclusion that your 'musings' would eventually take you to. You're wasting effort and should either go ahead and merge all of the tribes into their obvious niches or you should respect the existing politics of WtA and leave them untouched.

>>51558572
It is undoubtedly also inspired by characters such as Renfield, even though they're not vampires themselves.

>>51558661

I don't know, I kind of like some of anon's proposed changes.

>>51558629
That's a fair distinction. In which case, you could easily boil vampire archetypes down into three groups, if you want to reduce the number of clans as much as possible.
>A clan of bestial, physical, brutish vampires in touch with their predatory nature.
>A clan of seductive, domineering, social-engineering vampires that manipulate the minds and hearts of mortals.
>A clan of mysterious, mystical and monstrous vampires that plot and machinate in the shadows.

But I get the feeling that White Wolf thought that five was the magic number around the time they made nWoD.

>>51558764
Boiling things down to three also matches up to the Attributes rather nicely: you've just described Physical vampires, Social vampires, and Mental vampires. Of course, once you've reached *that* point, then the question comes up of why bother to have vampire clans at all when you could just have players decide for themselves where their points should be spread.

I still say Requiem would be better served by doing this - dropping Clans entirely, and simply having Covenant and perhaps Bloodlines be paramount.

>>51558824
They still wanted flavorful distinction between vampires and for them to play differently and in interesting ways, which is why the different clans have weaknesses that require a variety of playstyles.

They didn't want to water it down too much. Otherwise, you would've ended up with an even blander mess of homogeneous vampires, whose only difference from each other are how their stats are arranged.

>>51558824
I think Mage: the Awakening is also much better without Paths.

I'm new to Requiem and I haven't read up on all the stuff, so I really just made my Gangrel with the help of the GM and a few people, so pardon me if my question sounds very newbish for the setting.

Can vampires love another vampire? I asked in the previous thread if a Daeva can love another vampire, because it seems like a Daeva from our group seems to be building up to something with my character, and I'm not entirely sure for what purpose. Me being a natural paranoid fuck (in-character) leads me to suspect human blood no longer sustains her and she just wants a convenient blood supply.

>>51559399

If a Daeva can love*.

Sorry.

>>51559399
>she just wants a convenient blood supply
Does she understands that she is going to be blood-bonded by your blood?

Stun Gun (melee) or Stun Gun (Ranged)?
Context: I'm a psychic mortal in a blender game. Probably going to die, but I'm wondering if I could make myself useful by stunning enemies for my major template buds.

What would someone with 10 Resolve be like?

>>51559451

Can there an ongoing mutual blood bond? Because there was one time when my Gangrel had to take an emergency sip from her, and this was well before my paranoia kicked in, so now every encounter that might leave us out of range of some fresh blood has me acting very, very cautious.

>>51559471
Man with Mind of Steel.

>>51559497
Yes, of course, but canonically it always ends bad for both parties involved. It also may be illegal in your domain, so be careful.

>>51559518

Okay, thanks for the warning and info.

Guess this'll just add more neat tension to our group.

I don't know why, but I really love it when it's not just a get-along kind of group that's playing, but they don't have to inherently antagonistic towards each other, just have different goals in mind.

>>51559399
>Can vampires love another vampire?

Yes, though vampires (especially as they grow older) have harder and harder times maintaining feelings and affection for others besides themselves (vampires are by their nature self-centered), and it's not helped by the fact that undeath itself can be quite an obstacle to overcome.

So it's possible, it's just really, really rare.

Faced with this lessening of their emotions, most vampiric lovers either "end" their relationships in one way or another, or they commit to mutual blood bonds as a way to express their love for one another, since they often find themselves unable to show or appreciate love without it.

So it's rare indeed to find vampires who can maintain true love for one another indefinitely.

>>51559302
Paths are a good limiting factor and a better balance then alright you can be a fate/mind mage with matter as your worst path. It also gives an external interaction with a character.

>>51559657
Acanthus and Moros isn't example of good balance, m8.

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>>51559657
>Paths are a good limiting factor

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How exactly have you used the Moon Court from Changeling the Lost?
I mean to me it seems like it would be hard to develop any sort of group that feeds off of disgust without being either edgy/silly about it.

Which is a shame because I really like the Sun Court.

>>51559883
I found it works well for smaller freeholds with shame and disgust competing for social resources like charities and other larger endeavors.

>>51559906
Disgust and the like aligns well with how people feel about the homeless. And how Sun would treat those people with those views, by making them publicly shamed.

What is the Wyld like in oWoD?
I don't think I've ever seen anything about it or those forces loyal to it. I don't even know if the Wyld has things like Fomori or Drones.

>>51559302
do you want unfettered Mage supremacy? Because this is how you get unfettered Mage supremacy

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>>51557678
I've skimmed through the links and they're not there so I have to ask - does anyone have Tribe Novel Saga for Werewolf the Apocalypse? I can't seem to find the damn things anywhere, especially the first and sixth novel.

>>51559954
It has, they are called Gorgons and are mostly animals or plants

>>51559906
But what is the Moon Court doing with those resources?

>>51559954
It mostly has insane servants becuase of all the wyld energies. Def the best arm of the triat.

>>51560018
Attempting to deny them to the sun court. I also forgot I had the Moon court running the criminal world and spreading reasons for people to feel disgust. It's been a few years since I used. Basicly playing crime and the downtrodden against charity and the downtrodden for how the downtrodden are viewed and treated.

>>51559972
No unfettered mage supremacy is when you observe that it wouldn't take much for a master of spirit magic to flood the shadow with locuses with a KILL WEREWOLVES resonance.

>>51558005
>>51558107

The difference between Gangrel and Brujah is an individualist/social dichotomy. I think this is the reason White Wolf decided to separate them to begin with.

In a different game, them both being brute and ferocious would be enough of a similarity. But Masquerade is very social and political (or at least attempts to be). In a game like this, a clan that just want to be left alone (Gangrel) and a clan that actively search to push their agenda (Brujah) are brutally different, you could argue that Ventrue, Tremere and Toreador are more similar and interchangeable.

When discussing vampire archetypes too, regardless of games, it's also important to separate the social vampire that is a predator only figuratively from the solitary vampire who lives apart from society and is a literal hunter of men. In this sense it's Brujah and Toreador that are similar and should be mixed. In fact, I don't know much about Requiem but it would make more sense for "Brujah" to be Daeva than Requiem Gangrels.

>>51559972
Nah, I just find Paths poor-written, poor balanced and boring.

>>51560050
I figured criminals would be the best thing going for the Moon Court.

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>>51558107
I'm pretty sure Nossies exist because of, well, count Orlok and some players want to play the physically monstrous vampires that aren't really represented in vampire fiction post-Dracula or even post-Carmilla. If you go basing clan archetypes on folklore, Nosferatu have a very important role.

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>>51560192
>In fact, I don't know much about Requiem but it would make more sense for "Brujah" to be Daeva than Requiem Gangrels.

give it a read

>>51559302
>I think Mage: the Awakening is also much better without Paths.
Why? They're a big part of the lore and mechanics. You'd have to change a lot to get rid of them. How would Awakenings happen without a Watchtower? Will all spells cost Mana or only the more powerful ones? Or will you find a way to keep Ruling Arcana somehow? What about all the themes and character concepts associated with each Path? Just gone? What about Legacies? Will they just have prerequisite Arcana instead of being based on Paths?

Explain how things will be better without them.

>>51560313
>What about all the themes and character concepts associated with each Path?
They're shit anon

>>51558171
No, thank you. Just unmaking please.

>>51560302

You got other Clans screenshots like this?

Also, how do you take these screenshots to begin with? Just a simple Copy Image doesn't take it well.

>>51560414
Ok. You don't have to use them though. Even the books explain that they're stereotypes at best. So what about everything else?

>>51560313

Just freeform pick two to be Ruling and one to be Inferior. Doesn't seem like it'd be a big change. It'd just change Paths into something more like individualized Paradigms, probably.

>>51560313
>Why?
>>51560253

>How would Awakenings happen without a Watchtower? Will all spells cost Mana or only the more powerful ones? Or will you find a way to keep Ruling Arcana somehow?
There is several ways to do that; my favorite is there is no distinct Supernal Realms, just one really big Realm, containing all truth-symbols. There is only one Watchtower as well. Each Awakening is ultimately different Mystery Play; every mage has his own "Realm", which is the way for him to understand Supernal and seed of his future Lustrum. So you still have two Ruling and one Inferior Arcana and your vision of Supernal with them along.

>What about Legacies? Will they just have prerequisite Arcana instead of being based on Paths?
Yes, they just require a certain Arcana and will to shape your soul in certain way. I would also make them much more rare.

>What about all the themes and character concepts associated with each Path? Just gone?
Yes, and I fully agree with >>51560414 on the case. Those themes aren't connected with Arcana at all (for example, "witch" concept is much more Life and Matter for me than Fate and Time, for example), and their attemps to peg all mage stereotypes in five holes are laughable at best.

>>51560302
>those obvious formatting errors

>>51560461
Everything else is so trivial they were covered in the Chronicler's guide.

I'm running Chronicles of Darkness for the first time and currently in the process of throwing together my own fictional city. What supernatural factions shall I stock it with?

>>51558824
A lot of the ACTUAL distinction from each clan is kiiiinda entirely roleplayed out, like so much else of Requiem 1st and 2nd. Ventrue are also stated to slowly become arrogant and domineering as their new nature overtakes them and it only gets worse with age till they sound an awful lot like a Dark Eldar. Daeva pretty well slowly turn slaanesh over the course of the same time. Mekhet are supposed to become deeply obsessive about a particular kind of knowledge, either academic or occult or what have you. Gangrel are supposed to be played to being perilously close to dropping the ball at any moment. nosferatu....I don't know what to say about them.

>>51560488
For what game?

>>51560488
Lods of Beasts, everyone loves Beasts

>>51559974
sadly I don't think so. you can't even buy some of them on drivethroughfiction.

>>51560520

Chronicles of Darkness 2E, running my players as plain old mortals to begin with an aim for them to become Hunters.

>>51560473

Ok, yeah, that sounds more like a MtAw take on MtAsc's Paradigms, so that's pretty neat. I might run a game using that setup sometime.

>>51560488
Where is this fictional city?

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>>51560488
>I'm running Chronicles of Darkness for the first time and currently in the process of throwing together my own fictional city.

How autistic are you going with city building? Because Damnation City might be worthwhile to check out.

>>51560302
I've only skimed over it but except for the guy depicted in art they look like regular Gangrels, not Brujah at all (and the guy in the pic looks brujah but could perfectly be from half of the oWoD clans). They don't even got presence.

There's the curse, but in oWoD you could get that as a weakness and always seemed a bit random to only give it to Brujah (like it was weird for Lasombra to be the only ones with no reflection).

>>51560562

Going to keep it vague, but roughly analogous with America, coastal, planning to have districts ranging from heavily built up financial to quaint suburbs, and everything in between.

>>51560552
Then yeah you should definitely go with Beasts. Beasts literally have no redeeming qualities as the lessons they teach are nothing but pure hogwash and only work from the Beast's perspective.

>>51560063
is running a game of werewolf and a game of mage with two different groups and having the groups be each others antagonists without telling them feasible

>>51560473
>There is several ways to do that; my favorite is there is no distinct Supernal Realms, just one really big Realm, containing all truth-symbols. There is only one Watchtower as well. Each Awakening is ultimately different Mystery Play; every mage has his own "Realm", which is the way for him to understand Supernal and seed of his future Lustrum. So you still have two Ruling and one Inferior Arcana and your vision of Supernal with them along.

You basically just want to play mini-archmages, and ignore the significant thematic and mechanical limiting factors of the Paths that were purposefully part of the setting.

Your complaints that Paths are "shit" amounts to little more than whining that the setting doesn't incorporate the exact mage build that you prefer.

Open-ended creative thaumaturgy creates more than enough difficulties with actually playing Mage, with no need for open-ended Paths to create even more complexity both in character creation and play.

Of course, you are free to do as you will in your own chronicles, but eliminating Paths entirely upends the Mage setting and mechanical balancing.

Anyone willing to share Night Horrors: Conquering Heroes and Beast Mortal Remains? Thanks.

>>51560750
>paths
>significant mechanical limiting factors
stop it anon you're killing me

>>51560750

>upends the Mage setting

I can see that, sure

>mechanical balancing

Would freeform Ruling/Inferior selection really mess things up that much? XP values don't change, Legacies remain the same, etc.

>>51560552
Then keep supernatural factions isolated and relatively week. For example have a small gang of vampires, a cult of mortals lead by a hedge wizard, a few aristocratic vampires opposed to the other group, a couple of lone werewolves, etc.

>>51560816
If you kept it to gross/subtle ruling combinations it can't be more broke than core.

>>51560488
Probably gonna be majority vampires, maybe have some werewolves chilling out in the suburbs, a community of Changelings who's frerhold encompasses a college campus, every once in a while a promethean shows up, his disquiet stirring up drama all over.

Everything else can shift as you see fit

>>51560781
>significant mechanical limiting factors
>stop it anon you're killing me

It is a significant mechanical limiting and balancing factor *among mages.*

The point of Paths is certainly not to make mages "weaker" for some sort of crossover balance with other splats. Paths attempt to mechanically and thematically balance mages amongst themselves and create and enhance the mystery of awakening itself after the Fall. This is proven in Imperial Mysteries, where the very few mages who manage to surpass the Threshold forge their own unique (and far more powerful) Paths.

>>51560909
>werewolves chilling out in the suburbs

Nobody likes those bridge and tunnel werewolves.

>>51561006
>It is a significant mechanical limiting and balancing factor *among mages.*
you're a real kidder buddy but this joke is getting old fast

>>51560816
>Legacies remain the same, etc.
They don't actually. In anon's above mentioned "One Realm" alternative where Mages can just do their own bullshit paradigms there is no need for Legacies, because Mages all have a more personal and narrower understanding of magic, essentially putting them in a Legacy of one right off the bat.

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>>51560909
>implying the suburbs are chill for werewolves in CoD

>>51557678
No, i think the current balance is good.

>>51557678
More bloodlines.
>>51557746
>"Clan" is essentially meaningless in Requiem, since its only effect is to determine starting disciplines and weakness, but has no broader game impact. Covenant ends up being the actually important choice for a vampire.

This is kind of true. but the base clans make for a pretty good archtypes in what kind of vampire the players wants. Its a theory called signaling.
Scary and Dangerous Nos.
Machiavellian Bastard Vent.
Dead passion Daeva
Animalistic Gangrel
Secretive paranoid Mecket

But coming back to the point. I think there should be more bloodlines with more lax clan requirements. I want to see more dual clan bloodlines. where there can be a bit more overlap between the two archetypes

>>51560473
>recycle paradigms from ascension
Great. Can't wait to hear all the OC explanations for why a character should have Space and Fate with Spirit as inferior. I bet it'll make total sense and have a great theme and tie into their Awakening and won't be retarded bullshit designed to let a player have unfettered access to his favorite Arcana at the low, low cost of his least favorite.

>Legacies should be rare
Just get rid of them all together. Your paradigm approach makes them redundant.

>i don't agree with the stereotypes
You realize they didn't actually try too hard in that regard, right? "Witch" is just a nickname, not a serious title for the Path. It's meant to bring to mind divination and curses and boons. "Pagan" magic. The reason why you find their attempt to peg all Mage stereotypes laughable is because it wasn't an earnest effort. They gave lip service to them, that's it. You don't have to be a dour Necromancer if you Awaken as a Moros. You don't have to be religious to be an Obrimos Theurgist. Get it? The Paths are more of a foundation of your character's magic, not a guideline to how they should be. Legacies are far more definitive than Paths when it comes to different types of Mages, as they are personal and chosen.

>>51561480
>Space and Fate with Spirit as inferior.
Astrologer following the Path of the Heavens

>>51560750
>Of course, you are free to do as you will in your own chronicles, but eliminating Paths entirely upends the Mage setting and mechanical balancing.

That not really true. The only "mechanically" balance factor on different paths are xp cost which is meh if a player really want it they will get it.

Same with the mentor limitation, it doesnt balance things mechanically it only serves as plot-enforcing element that the ST might ignore/forget about it.

>>51561592
Anon don't bother, he clearly doesn't play the game which is why he's so butt-blasted people are deviating from his interpretation of fluff.

>>51561147
>They don't actually. In anon's above mentioned "One Realm" alternative where Mages can just do their own bullshit paradigms there is no need for Legacies, because Mages all have a more personal and narrower understanding of magic, essentially putting them in a Legacy of one right off the bat.

Thats pretty much how i run my games though. Players starts without legacies but are expected to get one and they play a higher importance to orders. Legacies is the flavor shot to the otherwise bland vanilla yogurt that is awakening.

>>51561480
>The reason why you find their attempt to peg all Mage stereotypes laughable is because it wasn't an earnest effort. They gave lip service to them, that's it. You don't have to be a dour Necromancer if you Awaken as a Moros. You don't have to be religious to be an Obrimos Theurgist. Get it? The Paths are more of a foundation of your character's magic, not a guideline to how they should be

no the anon you respond but what the point of paths then? Mechanically they barely matters, thematically they are a hit-and-miss with readers. Some like them, some find them limiting.

Their only relevance is on the awakening which is background info normally and at most what kind of entities you can summon.

>>51561612

Ah, that kind of anon. Gotcha.

That's why the Abyss is the best Path

>>51561692
I want the Watchtower of the Liquid Sword to leave

>pathless
There was a 'sixth' watchtower hinted at in one of the later supplements. more than likely an plot / setting idea than a part of the main game.

The five known and expected paths are kind of the largest and most well worn magical archetypes. That kind of grounded symbolism helps in the making but by no means is a watchtower visit required anymore. and honestly the whole signing business was a terrible lark along with atlantis. More symbol than fact. The mystery plays are where it's at mate. Also the five paths and the five orders are apart of the 5by5 x/y model they use.

The biggest part of awakening is seeing the lie, rejecting it and finding your own truth. the "orcals" are matrix shortcuting and the signing is just a reaffirmation of self in the lie Playing a pathless mechanically? no ruling arcane. so you're kind of dick in the mana department. you've got to pay for every improvised spell

In fact, we have clannless vampires call reverents. They get dicked hard, but can become full clan vampires by being adopted in a second embrace, or straight up diaboing a guy. basically pathless sounds like plot fodder. could be the start of an extended mystery play, a ticking time bomb, a new way or more likely an An Heroed. Special snowflake territory be warned.

One last note. ruling arcane give a discount for starting effects. but as you start to introduce paradox mitigation, and paying for effects. It might turn out to be a 50% discount or only a 75% discount. Which becomes trivial as you gain more and more mana sources

>>51561727
There's almost a dozen extra watchtowers of one kind or another.

>>51561714
Solid Sword
Ruling Fate/Space infer Forces
Liquid Sword
Ruling Forces/Spirit infer Life
Solidus Sword
Ruling Matter/Mind infer Spirit

>>51561727
The last two generals, ive seen this copypasta. Does anon wait for a good time to drop this or is it just some circulating pasta?

>>51561787
REMOVE SCELESTI

>>51561787

Venom Sword
Forces/Fate, inferior Mind

>>51561533
That would make for a good Legacy, but not a wholesale Path substitute.

>>51561780
I would suggest writing them up then

>>51561727
>The biggest part of awakening is seeing the lie, rejecting it and finding your own truth

Except Awakening is not about finding your own truth, it's about now seeing that reality is a Lie, and because the unfiltered Truth is deadly, the filters of a Path and its symbols allows a mage to perceive a sliver of *the* Truth.

As seen in Imperial Mysteries, the quest to create your own Truth is the near impossible path to Ascension pursued by archmasters.

>>51561844
before one can run, one must first be able to walk. and if one can not walk then one must crawl. Gaining the first gnois is like getting unshackled from Plato's cave wall. then stumpling around in the darkness going oh fuck. Realizing the shadows on the wall are a lie, but still being stuck in the darkness with all these other dicks.

>>51561668
I see Paths as foundations, as I said. Something that you build on, not define your character with. I also believe that the structure and limitations of a Path are good things that filter out retarded shit. Despite the griping that the Paths are thematic messes, I find them to be just fine. The Ruling Arcana compliment each other and have backings in real world myths of magic and the inferior Arcana are appropriate for each realm. Players can make up their own Paths, of course, but the Paths we already have cover all the broad generalizations. If they make one that isn't stupid special snowflake bullshit and has unique themes, more power to them. What's more, Anon's desire for more personalized approaches to magic is something covered by Legacies, not Paths.

>>51561480
If a Moros isn't summoning the dead then what's the point of being a Moros?

>>51562164
Gotta stick to the canon no matter what.

>>51562164

Being an alchemist with Matter? I have a Moros who uses Matter and Forces to work for NASA.

>>51562164
Nowadays aren't they more like boring alchemists?

>>51562351

NASA is a Seer front.

>>51561480
>Can't wait to hear all the OC explanations for why a character should have Space and Fate with Spirit as inferior.
I surely do prefer to hear these explanations and original realms from my players, not to peg their ideas and desires into five small holes.

>Just get rid of them all together.
Attainments are cool.

>It's meant to bring to mind divination and curses and boons. "Pagan" magic.
Well it doesn't, and pagan magic is sounds more like blood and sacrifice to me. And so on with each Path.

>They gave lip service to them, that's it.
And that's why I find them laughable and restricting without any reason. They aren't even stereotypes. There just no reason for them to exist.

>>51562466
Your mother is a Seer front!

Can somebody post a WoD power chart? I'm in an argument saying whether an Elder Lasombra can take on a Garou.

>>51562683
Archmage tier: Archmages
Mage Tier: Mages
Shit Tier: Everyone else

>>51562013
>If they make one that isn't stupid special snowflake bullshit and has unique themes, more power to them.

How can you be a special snowflake when your "special path" is just another blip in a 10 on 10 combination?

>>51562705
Stop mage wanking plz

>>51562722
Not even Cain could stop me from mageposting

>>51562644

I mean, with the Profane Urim, that's always a 50% possibility for any human being alive.

>>51562683
>Can somebody post a WoD power chart? I'm in an argument saying whether an Elder Lasombra can take on a Garou.

I love this notion of garou being this uber badasses when in reality they are not that good. Garous unlike vampire have social limitation to their powers, they gotta get rank and, except on retarded 20s something elders games, ranks takes time so most garous reach anthro at most before dying.

Vampires on the other hand dont have any limitation for their power the game refuses to comment on how a vampire develops/gets limited to their disciplines up to 5. So nothing in the setting stops a fresh from chargen to max their disciplines to 5 while still being a vampire for 1 years of game.

Yes all garou are proficient warriors, multiaction-rage, Crinos and aggravated makes every garou a proficient warrior a baseline. That said a vampire starts weaker and certain builds make them not a good warrior. However there is a threshold that when a vampire crosses XP wise they just flat out laugh in the face of werewolves. Powers of werewolf depends a lot more on build (unless is free for all game) and even then they are more utilitarian gifts while vampire discipline oddly enough are more brute, they are do this thing....but MORE AND BETTER.

Oh you got a gift that lets make someone fall when you punch them, thats pretty neat but you know what fucking potence do? AUTOMATIC FUCKING SUCCESSES ON PUNCH!

So certain Werewolves build aside, an elder lasombra is gonna wipe the floor with most garous.

>>51560750
>ignore the significant thematic and mechanical limiting factors of the Paths that were purposefully part of the setting.
Anon, please. We all know that Acanthus is master race and Moros are shit, don't try to show them up as equals.

>Your complaints that Paths are "shit" amounts to little more than whining that the setting doesn't incorporate the exact mage build that you prefer.
I am mostly GMing, not playing. And I do find Realms uninterested, and Paths needlessly restricting.

>open-ended Paths to create even more complexity both in character creation and play
Open-ended Paths don't create any additional complexity because they don't change anything in mechanics.

>eliminating Paths entirely upends the Mage setting and mechanical balancing
Not really. There isn't really that much of things tied to Paths and Realms as such, and you can just reuse Supernal entities tying them to Arcana, not Realm.

>>51562013
You can't make a special snowflake because no matter what you do your secondary arcana doesn't make anything unique.
You still get the same ghosts, spirits and daemons as everyone else, even if you specializes in Matter instead of Space.

>>51561154
It will be when the werewolves are done with it

>>51562466
>implying they aren't the Silver Ladder made manifest

>>51560886
What do you mean?

>>51563101
>implying the Silver Ladder aren't seers

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>werewolves

>>51563113
The gross arcana aren't as good as the subtle arcana, that's why Obrimos is worst path.

Does anyone have the new Hunter/Beast book yet? I wanna see the new groups.

>>51563158

Huh? Forces is probably the most versatile Arcanum, controlling everything from the weather to the internet, invisibility and flight to friggin' gravity.

Demon the Fallen 20th Anniversary when?

>>51563158
U wot m8? Forces is one of the most versatile Arcanum, and Prime is basically "control magic" Arcanum, which is even better. I'd say Obrimos is strong second place after Acanthus, maybe third if you consider Mind Arcanum cheat.

>>51563247
Never ever

>>51563247
Never probably.

Could a changeling contract make sunlight?

>>51563247
>20th Anniversary Edition when?

Presumably 20 years after it came out, which was... 2002, according to Wikipedia? So we've got five more years to go.

>>51563258
Yes, Eternal Summer 5th dot.

>>51563258
>Could a changeling contract make sunlight?

I don't see why not. I believe the only hard limitation is no contracts dealing with iron.

I could certainly envision a mid to high-level contract for an elemental relating to the sun.

>>51563283
Is that true sunlight capable of burning up vampires?

>>51563476
Yes, it is stated so in description:
A sunbeam heavy with potent Glamour lashes out from the changeling to strike his foe. It inflicts lethal points of damage equal to successes on the activation roll. If the changeling spends one point of Willpower, the damage is aggravated. Against creatures susceptible to sunlight, this attack may have additional affects (inflicting aggravated or additional damage, for example).

So are there any good Legacies for the Moros?

>>51563551
Cult of the Doomsday clock is cool and one of the antagonist groups I'm using in my game.

>>51562683
oWoD is tricky to define. Mages would still reign supreme, however.

As for nWoD/CofD, a previous Anon posted this 15-20 threads down. Seems about right.


God Tier
>Archmage

Top Tier
>Prep Mage
>Loud Demon
>Fresh Mummy

Middle Tier
>Mage
>Demon
>Sin-Eater
>Mummy
>Beast
>Werewolf
>Promethean

Street Tier
>Changeling
>Vampire
>Surprised mage
>Prep Hunter
>Hunter

>>51563551
Celestial Masters. Get Forces and Space as Ruling Arcana and conquer the stars

>>51563588
And depending on builds, there can be wild variations on this theme. Werewolves can get a power combo that lets them literally incinerate an area 5 miles wide. No paradox, no disbelief, just... boom.

>>51563619
What's the combination?

>>51563588
>Changelings above vampire
Why, Changelings are weak and squishy.

>>51562466
>humanity overcoming the lie of gravity to hurdle itself to outerspace is a seer front
NASA is one of the Free Council's major arguments that mankind are the major actors in the metaphysical realms

>>51563839
Cataclysm and Tongue of Flame from the Elemental Gift. You can effect an area of your Glory Renown in miles wide with Tongue of Flame. So really, you need Purity 4 for Create Flame, and then as much Glory as you can get, but at Glory 5 you just flambe everything for 5 miles.

Or take a different Elemental Facet to bury the city under a mountain, drown it or literally blow it away. Actually, you can several-miles-radius Control Air at just 3 dots in Air's Facet Renown, which you can then kill everyone in the city with.

It's pretty horrendous. And having Cataclysm makes you immune to the effects of the Cataclysm element, so you and your friends won't get hurt either.

How far can you throw a human, or human weight thing, if you have strength jacked up to 10 via the power of magic or just being luridly high exp?

>>51563855
Changelings can be quite beefy, unless you throw an Acanthus at them.

>>51563919
A Mage willing to soak Paradox (or not even, if they're prepared) would have a far easier time doing something even more devastating than that.

>>51563919

>laughing Obrimos

>>51564013

No shit, its that werewolves don't have those limitations that make it good.

At the end of the day it still roasted a city and didn't harm the wrrewolf or their friends in the process.

>>51563551
Motherfucking Uncrowned Kings

>>51563855
Depends on the sort of Changeling, how much glamour they have, how high their wyrd is.

If a Changeling hits the right combination of fucked up mentally and magically they turn into a True Fae of whom are just straight up "lol fuck reality m8"

>>51564013
>unless you throw an Acanthus at them.
Why dont you just marry DaveB if you love acanthus so damn much

>>51564013
The area chart for mage spells doesn't even go that high.

As for 'more devastating', there comes a certain point where it's irrelevant because everything is dead regardless. A werewolf can use Cataclysm to create a 5-mile-high mountain on top of them; everything under that is dead as a doornail if it can suffer physical damage at all.

>>51564045
The Uncrowned Kings are kinda gay/lame, desu senpai

>>51562599
>paths with numerous ways to apply magic are small holes
Yep, because every Moros has to be a heartless Necromancer, amirite? They can't be mediums or alchemists or archaeologists or engineers or artists or fighters or weapons-smiths or even cryomancers (a possibility I've been playing ever since "cold" was added to Death in 2e).

>Attainments are cool
And as of 2e are not a concept exclusive to Legacies.

>pagan magic sounds more like blood magic and sacrifice to me
You're confusing it with Satanism.

>more whining about stereotypes
The examples provided in the books are just that, examples. They show how the magic of a given path can affect a Mage because one of the biggest themes of the game is how power changes people. A Path is a starting point, something that you choose as a basis that fits your character in a broad sense. Once your character decides on their magic beliefs and how they want to apply their power to the world, they choose a Legacy.

>>51564088
Mages can increase the total area by taking in more penalties. Then you got Archmasters who can level entire continents with the Practice of Dynamics. Of course, the other Seekers would stop it from ever happening.

>>51564107
I don't know. The philosophy of self-improvement and individualism is appealing, and while the attainments aren't flashy they are useful. A permanent mental shield that can stack with another mental shield that you can add with your new Ruling Arcana of Mind practically ensures that you will never ever fall prey to Mind magic, and the attribute boost is good too.

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>>51563588
As the Anon who actually made the original

Vampires are the top of the street tier they're powers act as the benchmark of all the other powers, but their weaknesses are well known and they are immobile during sun up. So instead of labeling them twice at sun up and sun down, we use them as the benchmark, They have power but also have weaknesses. Prep hunters deserve there spot at the bottom Middle Tier as they can leverage the weaknesses of the other splats, but to get shit done they have to work together and even then they lose people all the damn time. Archmages are merely eternally prep mages and are as setting involved as true fae so they're redundant and the list might as well included all the otherworldly shit. so no we're not listing them for mage wank. they already get three spots. no more mage wank

Beast Actually start out really strong but get overshadowed as the other splats get their higher powers. Beasts have got some good powers, but vamps are rewarded for buying in more into theirs

Top Tier
>Prep Mage
>Loud Demon
>Fresh Mummy

Middle Tier
>Mage
>Demon
>Sin-Eater
>Mummy
>Werewolf
>Promethean
>Prep Hunter

Street Tier
>Vampire
>Beast
>Changeling
>Surprised mage
>Hunter

>>51563860
and like many arguments of the FC, it is a fraud drawn from delusions about human nature. Mankind begs to be enslaved, and only when the many are oppressed can the few rise to serve at this world's true masters table
#servetheExarchs#downwiththePentacle

>>51564123
>Yep, because every Moros has to be a heartless Necromancer, amirite?
They haven't, but they don't have any meaningful description beyond "necromancer", and if you are throwing this away, there is no reason to do Moros in the first place.

>And as of 2e are not a concept exclusive to Legacies.
True.

>You're confusing it with Satanism.
Read just about everything on pagan religions. Death, rebirth and sacrifice are common themes.
Also, we may see "witch" differently - and that's the whole point, but Acanthus Arcana "support" only one vision of witches. Which is bad.

>A Path is a starting point, something that you choose as a basis that fits your character in a broad sense.
If so, I prefer to have more starting points for my characters.

>>51564107
Oh right, I forgot, you're a lazy motherfucker who finds no gratification in hard work.

>>51564360
Previous Anon had a better list. Excluding Archmasters is a bit of a cop-out.

>>51562996
What are you talking about, Moros are great man.

>>51564477
>They haven't, but they don't have any meaningful description beyond "necromancer",

2e explicitly gives each Path two titles. Moros are just as much Alchemists as they are Necromancers.

>>51564360

This is shit list. Hunters are crap and Beasts can throw skyscrapers.

>>51564477
I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. I'm burned out on internet arguments and this is more of a matter of taste than something where somebody can be proved wrong.

>>51564491
Nah nah, not talking about that, I just find Mind a really boring arcanum.

>>51564568
>and Beasts can throw skyscrapers.
I keep hearing that. What power is terribly worded enough to allow that unintentionally?

I've been reading a bunch of Beast reviews and

It really seems to me that Heroes could work as a Hunter splat with Beasts being villains

Really, I have no idea why they couldn't just go down that path from the get go

>>51564360
>Archmages are merely eternally prep mages

Are you really trying to compae a Seeker to the average Awakened, prep or not? Even a prepared Mage is going to fall before the feet of an Archmaster. Not even the Gentry are going to be a threat.

>>51564657
Does not the Mortal Remains for Beast include how you can build a Hero? Use this as a guideline and then have fun with them

>>51564608
Mind is actually one of the Arcana that spooks me the most. Not just with its ability to stick its fingers in your brain and learn all your dirty little secrets. Psychic domination so powerful you can make a man walk off the edge of a skyscraper. Memory wipes. Mental reprogramming. The Banisher book even had a Master of Mind that utilized a spell that would keep prisoner Mages from being able to focus enough to cast a spell.

>>51564691
Oh it does?

Fucking fantastic
I know what I'm DMing next then

>>51564714
Yeah that's also a part of it, I have some pretty strong moral issues with that kind of stuff. Then again I like moros and that entails basically doing the same to ghosts... But you know, they aren't real people, just imprints caused by the death of a soul. :^)

How did the Antediluvians take out the second gen?

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>>51564747

>>51564509
better include true fae, father wolf, gaia, god lucfer. how far do you want to go anon? Archmages were only put on for Mage wank. when they've THREE spots. That's overflowing. and memeing for memeing sack.

Changelings have lots of trickery but lack raw power

Vampires are as resilient as cockroaches, and social monsters. In a straight up fight, that don't have all the raw power, but they're no weakling. They sit at the top of the Street tier as the benchmark for other powers

Beast They actually start out really strong but get overshadowed as the other splats get their higher powers. still pretty good

Mages. if they've got their shit together are forces to be reckoned with. but if they don't know what they're up against or are out right surprised, they can't bring their full weight. which is why they concentrate on investigation. They're batman. and Archmage are just prep mages so I'm not going to make another category for them

Hunters are normal people who's eyes are open. weak and fragile. But if they know what they're doing and can investigate, they can take out a target. Not without sacrifice but hey more humans are born everyday. They're literally Batman

Demons have a lot of the tricks that Mages have, but more stream lined, so even surprised they can do their thing. and going Loud is the metaphysical Nuclear option

Promes Wolves and Eaters all kind of share the same space, as combat comparable with one or two tricks. but what stops them from over taking one other is ironically the same reason Vampires are the benchmark. Socially they all have problems. Prome have disquiet and Wolves have Primal Rage. Sineaters don't have any specific disadvantage, but they don't get any social powers at all. Plus Sin Eaters can't 'just' be killed

Mummy have a weird inverse power scale to them. When they wake up they're unthinking murder machines, but as they get control of themselves, they lose that huge power boost and sit at the same level as mages.

I asked a similar question in the previous thread, but I'm trying to be creative in an upcoming Chronicle and need advice.

What are some good contingency spells a Mage could use to prevent a Vampire from using Celerity to kill him in one turn? Kinda like Doctor Strange fighting The Flash.

Would really appreciate a response! Thanks.

>>51564865
What Arcana do you have?

>>51564853
Archmages were put on the list because they are actual player characters with full rules you dense moron.

>>51564865
Need more details. What Path is the Mage? What Arcana do they have? Is the Mage going to be specifically prepared to handle Celerity? Any imbued items or artifacts?

>>51564853
You're surprisingly lacking in your know-how. I suggest you thoroughly engross yourself in the other gamelines before you start flaunting your irrelevant and misinformed opinions.

You also seemed to have ignored (intentionally?) the fact that we're discussing templates, not defined deities.

>>51564913
What are you talking about, he's right.

>>51564608
Mind is really interesting though!!
It's got creepy goetic demons and those weird mind-realms you can explore and summon things from.
It's why I initially was excited for Beast.

>>51564884
I was thinking of making a Mastigos Libertine. Would the Space Arcanum be sufficient enough to counter a group of Vampires running 300mph at you? Sorry, I like to exaggerate.

>>51564246
>Mages can increase the total area by taking in more penalties.

No, they can't. Area of effect is explicitly capped out on the advanced scale table.

>>51564853
Gaia and Father Wolf aren't playable templates....

....What are you trying to do here?

>>51564865

As other Anon's stated, we need to know more about the particular mage in question.

Moreover, to fight a vampire with celerity, a mage's only option certainly isn't just negating celerity.

It doesn't matter how fast a vampire may be if a mage is immaterial, near immune to kinetic damage, etc.

If you do want to negate celerity, however, there are more than ample options among the Arcana. Time is the most obvious and direct choice to either speed up the mage or slow the vampire. Space allows changing distance and vector. Forces can increase or negate gravity, vastly enhance friction, etc. Matter can turn the ground to sludge or ice, etc.

>>51564714
Don't forget that you also get to do cool stuff with Astral Realms, and get to crib powers from Spirit in the form of Goetia that can do roughly similar things.

>>51564976
That's what "Advanced" is. You can also push it a tad bit further by doubling the advancement. That's about as far as it can go.

You need the sixth Practice to start affecting entire countries or to conjure chain-linked mass atomic blasts.

>>51565008
Although you have to be careful what you yank out of the Astral with Goetia, on account of it then not being in the Astral any more. I imagine a fair few hubristic mages have fucked up severely that way.

>>51564950
Use Mind 2's Incognito Presence, they cannot perceive you unless they use Auspex, and even then you can still perhaps beat them at a Clash of Wills.

Use Mind 2's Psychic Domination (a bit harder) to force them all into Topor (also got to know about that first).

Use Space 2's Secret Door on a doorway once you've run through it, and to them it suddenly disappears unless they use Auspex like with Incognito Presence.

Use Space 3's Ban to seal either yourself (easy) or all of them (harder) in a bubble of looped Space which they cannot escape bar some teleportation or dimension jumping power.

Use Space 3's Co-Location to "teleport" away through fraying the space between two areas, and jumping over. They cannot follow.

Those are the standard character-generation "get me the fuck out of here" spells for Mastigos.

>>51564976

Depending on the nature and type of spell, the target, ie., area of effect, can be moved and controlled.

For instance, a master of Forces can create a huge super tornado or firestorm which is then under their complete control for the duration of the spell.

>>51564950
I would use Space to escape the literally bloodthirsty undead speedsters. Trying to counter them all with just one Arcanum is the kind of hubris that gets Mages killed.

>>51565021
Right. And per the cap for area of effect on the advanced area table, which is explicitly the hard cap as per the text, mages can't hit an area as large as Cataclysm can.

Archmages aren't really relevant to a discussion off the back of:

>>51564013
>A Mage willing to soak Paradox (or not even, if they're prepared) would have a far easier time doing something even more devastating than that.

Since reaching being an Archmage means you're well past the 'easy time' stage. Plus Archmages just get countered by the rest of the Pax Arcana lot, so they can't really do anything.

>>51565048
>Use Space 3's Ban to seal either yourself (easy) or all of them (harder) in a bubble of looped Space which they cannot escape bar some teleportation or dimension jumping power.
Or you could use Repel if you have dots in Death. That would make an essentially portable Ban around you and since vampires are a decently specific modifier it would be decently solid.

>>51565056
Huh. Well there's something Werewolves can only dream of attempting. I actually thought Cataclysm was better for a second.

>>51565056
That's true.

The werewolf can do the same, and can make it permanent with high enough Renown. A permanent giant tornado, ten miles across, no Paradox, no disbelief.

I wonder how long it'd take something that large and powerful to bore into the earth's crust.

>>51565116
Wait, I'm wrong, it can't make it permanent. It can last a fair while and control it, though.

>>51565116
The only difference is that a Mage has far more control than that. There's more potential carnage with Mages than a Cataclysm using Werewolf.

>>51565116
>I wonder how long it'd take something that large and powerful to bore into the earth's crust.
I don't think tornadoes work like that outside of a certain shitty webcomic.

>>51565060
>>51564950

A smart Mastigos realizes that fighting a group of vampires moving 300mph without preparation is foolish and needless risky to his important self, and uses any number of Space spells to quickly and easily escape.

He then carefully plots his revenge, including potential options that allow him to painfully destroy the vampires without ever leaving the comfort of his couch.

He also realizes that if he needs to face a group of vampires, he too should get some help. I'm sure his Obrimos cabal-mate has more than a few spells to remind any group of uppity undead, fast or otherwise, that the Wise are not ever to be trifled with.

>>51565007
>>51565048
>>51565060
Celerity allows the Vampire to take the first action though. How is the Mage going to prevent that? This is what I mean by "contingency", could the Awakened have a long running shield around himself?

What would it take to see through the propaganda regarding the Salubri?

>>51565159

I believe Anon is asking how a Mastigos could confront a group of Flashpires without getting speedblitzed to death. Not from the safety of his home.

>>51565167
>could the Awakened have a long running shield around himself?
Yes. Mage Armor can be made lasting for the cost of one Mana. I think.

They didn't change that in 2e did they?

>>51565134
A bit more thought, and there is a way to do it, but you need to piggyback on an existing hurricane or storm. Permanent Cataclysm-Strengthen on it so that it will never dissipate, then Cataclysm-Control on it to take control as and when you want.

>>51565147
A werewolf elementalist has total control over their cataclysm if they, well, use Control, and a mage can't hit as large an area with the effect.

You get 'more potential carnage' from a mage by doing something that works round the problem a bit, ie Matter up some appropriate materials for your nuclear bomb.

>>51565159
Shifting Death's Shadow Crafting spell to Forces (3 dots), an Obrimos can create solid objects out of sunlight.

Including Bullets, Bomb Casings, and Armour.

>>51565157
What webcomic?

>>51565191
Mage Armour is activated reflexively, for one mana, and you can also Dodge to get even more use out of it.

e.g.
Space lets you re-direct the first Vamp's attack (should he fail to hit you) against one of his pals for 1 Mana with automatic successes equal to Space dots.

Really though, with that many Celerity-boosted Vampires you're either a fucking retard, well prepared, or your GM hates you.

>>51565208
http://www.mspaintadventures.com/?s=6&p=005396

>>51565194

>and a mage can't hit as large an area with the effect.

At the moment of casting? Yes, I agree. When the spell starts to grow and cover entire cities? Nope.

>>51564491

Well we are in tg after all.

>>51565196
>solid objects out of sunlight

The physics here goes pretty weird pretty fast.

If the objects are made of sunlight, then if they radiate sunlight, they will disintegrate in a moment. So solid sunlight that didn't just radiate itself away would be just a black object. It presumably wouldn't also do anything to a vampire since it's not actually emitting anything onto them.

That said, you could turn sunlight into bullets, shoot them into a vampire, then release the spell effect to have the sunlight let loose on the vampire's innards.

The >>51565191
It's an attainment that lasts for a whole scene once activated. Looks like it can be used as a reflexive action.

>>51565196
That is not possible. Creating energy is 5 dots.

>>51565159
>300mph

That's ludicrous. You're injecting Twilight sparkledicks into WoD. How is a Mage going to 1v1 Edward Cullen without getting his head ripped off in 0.1 seconds?

>>51565229
The spell won't grow. The effect might, but anything outside the defined spell factor of the AoE won't be under the mage's control.

>>51565269
He was just using the other anon's exaggeration. Chill out.

>Archmages
>PCs
>What is going on in this thread?

Might as well say True Fae are PCs as well. Archmages aren't playable in any meaningful sense just like True Fae; even thou we have equinox Road that delineates a changeling's ascension into true Fae realms. It's repeatedly called out over and over again, that Archmages eject themselves from the fallen world. and any game that makes a PC archmage just so they suck off some blood leach gangbangers or go out pegging some werewolves is but a diluted power fantasy. espeically when mages are already able to do a shit ton with enough prep work. Regular Mages are literally the Wizard in the tower going out on quests to get or make the mcguffin. So please as a mage fan myself spare us your mage wankery. I'm getting embarrassed for the both of us

>>51565282

Using the firestorm example, the same mage who create it could easily control any resulting fires caused by such storm. This is precisely the point of creating it in the first place.

>>51565261
The spell's valid. You'd have to craft the items during daylight of course but as long as the duration is long enough I'd allow it.

>>51565332

True Fae aren't traditional Templates. They're more so a mini-game as stated by the writers.

Archmages are an actual template defined and exemplified. They're also stronger than the Gentry by definition.

>>51565332
Archmages are the most cancerous part of Awakening.

You can't actually do anything meaningful because the godlings sitting in their little pocket dimensions will immediately stop any major changes.

Or they can't do that, because of the Pax Arcana, in which case they're just a set of pointless losers. Gain ultimate power and be unable to do anything with it.

Awakening would be better if Archmages were just rumor.

>>51565269
>How is a Mage going to 1v1 Edward Cullen without getting his head ripped off in 0.1 seconds?

Oh, I don't know, maybe... magic?

There are dozens of spells from most of the Arcana that not only makes solid speeding objects and attacks useless against the mage, but actually dangerous to the attacker (e.g., Forces Rend Friction).

>>51565332
>and any game that makes a PC archmage just so they suck off some blood leach gangbangers or go out pegging some werewolves is but a diluted power fantasy.

>describes 97% of Mage: The Wankening games.

>>51565346
So could a werewolf with the appropriate Facets, and across a larger area than the mage can.

>>51565269
>How is a Mage going to 1v1 Edward Cullen
Are the Twampires actually stronger than Mages?

>>51565250
Transforming sunlight into bullets is Patterning Forces and Patterning Matter. I would still count it as sunlight for the bane conditions thou.

>>51565369

The Pax Arcana only prevents the use of Imperial Magic to create massive changes to reality than could affect other archmasters or similarly powerful beings.

If masochistic idiots attack an archmage, he's free to use the full extent of his power, and without any need to resort to the Imperial Practices, to deal with such impudence with extreme prejudice.

>>51565346
Except he's going to get Paradox coming out his ears just for casting it, and Sleeper Disbelief will erode the spell incredibly fast.

>>51565369
>Awakening would be better if Archmages were just rumor
You mean you've played games where they aren't?

I mean, I'm guilty of having the major Mystery of my city being the effect of a long-term Imperial Spell cast in ages back, and now protected by the City's Rank 7 Astral God.

But I've never seen or had the players interact with an Archmaster, or any of their overt spell effects.

>>51565402
The initial area is larger, sure. The Mage in question can potentially go further than that.

File: Shadow Crafting.png (42KB, 410x227px) Image search: [Google]

42KB, 410x227px

>>51565426
Normally I'd agree.
However canon examples such as Shadow Crafting and Shadow Flesh don't require a conjunctive Arcanum to work.

>>51565459
You don't seem to understand how spell factors work. You define the AoE at the time of casting and you cannot then increase it.

>>51565457
Archmages as plot device is something I approve of

>>51565332
Dude if I wasn't at work I could write up an Archmage character right now. People have already stated that they've run Archmage games in this very thread.

Archmages are PCs, you can liss and moan about it for as long as you like but it doesn't stop it from being true.

>>51565476
Why not perfect normal light?

Surely a flashlight enchanted to emit perfected light is easier than forging sun-bullets?

>>51565450

Disbelief doesn't even begin to kick in until the scene is over, and then only slowly erodes any spell. It's only effective against long-term effects.

Also, ancillary effects are not subject to paradox. While the initial firestorm spell will be subject to paradox as normal, any fires set by the storm or other damage don't affect paradox. Unless the mage is creating fire sculptures, a huge fire spreading rapidly is also hardly an obvious magic effect for any subsequent control or enhance fire spells.

>>51565515
Flashlights don't do anything special to vampires. Sunbullets would.

>>51565497
>Create firestorm
>Apply Life
>Living firestorm gradually consumes the Boreal Forest of Canada

anyone got a pdf for tooth and nail? Heard that beast backers got it and I'm sure at least one of you lot are here :^)

>>51565515
Because if we went for the easiest tactic, I wouldn't be fucking headbutting Vamps in the first place.

Also in such a case I'd just perfect, enhance, and bend the light from the torch to blast them all in the room with ludicrous quantities of "sunlight".

Also having items made of sunlight is fucking awesome.

>>51565536
No, why would you do that to my country ;~;
>>51565543
I'd link it if I wasn't paranoid that the FBI an shit would backtrace it to me and van me.

>>51565515
>>51565534

Why not just have the mage convert and amplify the normal flashlight beam to real sunlight.

Any Obrimos disciple can easily create a flashlight of vampire killing.

>>51565476
I believe the problem is the source of the purview. In the Shadow Crafting example. You're taking something that is already there and hardening it. if the purview suddenly is no longer around. The spell nolonger has a target to effect.

>>51565534
Perfected light would, which would merely require Forces 3 to "create".
Perfected phenomenon counts as all derivatives for satifying banes, weaknesses and so forth.

So if a Spirit is only weak to a stake cut from a specific forest, cut with a certain axe, and engraved with certain runes.
Then use Life 3 to ensure the stick you're carrying is a "perfected wood", and it satisfies the quality of that Bane.

>>51565533
Neither of which are a problem for the werewolf elementalist at all.

>>51565413
>Mage spontaneously combusts the fagpire

You can't outrun spontaneous combustion.

>>51565536
I think you'd want Mind rather than Life. Disbelief would kill it over a few scenes, anyway.

>>51565619
>Disbelief would kill it over a few scenes
That really depends.

>>51565581
It's no true sunlight. So you'd have to treat it like UV enriched lights. Prime would allow you change that, but if you have prime you might as well hell fire.

>>51565536
>Create firestorm
>Apply Life
>Living firestorm gradually consumes the Boreal Forest of Canada

Would a sentient or independent firestorm require Mind, not Life?

In any event, I have no doubt that these types of spells are reason why I believe most supernaturals or knowledgeable humans in the CofD no doubt find mages to be real assholes.

Whoever argues that mages aren't really "monsters" needs to peruse /wodg/ to disabuse themselves of such foolishness.

>>51565659
Don't get me wrong. I'd allow Hunters to pull off a if of the UV Trick, all blade style, but it wouldn't be as effective as true sunlight

>>51565564
Bruh, the onyx path pdfs don't even have any kind of drm

Did they update the charts from nWoD with the XP values for starting more experienced characters at? For CoD?

>>51565666
Oh definately, mages are monsters, but they are extremely human monsters.

Mages are an exploration of what happens when you give ordinary people power. It's nice to think about what happens when someone nice gets power but it's equally as likely for the lady who abuses customer service, the DMV employee or Ted Bundy to awaken as it is for 'good' people.

>>51565716

XP costs are different in CofD if that's what you're asking.

>>51565708
Ain't gonna trick me with your lies, mr. FBI

>>51565659

Huh? In Mage 2e, "true sunlight" isn't special.

You can convert. transform. create it, etc. as you would any other force.

A mage could convert heat, sound, movement, even gravity, to sunlight as they wish. If an Obrimos wanted his tiny LED flashlight keychain to start killing vampires, nothing could stop him.

There no longer any "this would such for vampires" speed bump in Forces.

>>51565740
I know that. I was wondering if they made an update version of those charts, changed to adapt to CoD XP costs.

So how exactly did the Camarilla denial of the Antes work when you've got a 4th gen vampire ruling Great Britain?

>>51565697
Have you read the Signs of Sorcery preview on perfected materials yet? Personally I'd allow 'perfected light' to function as sunlight.

>>51565760

For which game?

>>51565737
Aye Mate, you don't need godlike power to enact horrors on the world. We've done plenty enough with our own hands and the tools we make

>>51565779
Any of them? nWoD had one chart that got copied across all the game lines I think.

>>51565743

Are you suggesting you can't trust the fine Anon's on /wodg/?

I don't know how I will ever live with the hurt.

If you want to confirm whether a rpg PDF has DRM, or request that DRM be removed, go to the 7chan rpg request thread. There's a few very well known and trusted people who clean PDF's for distribution.

>>51565835
>Just upload it on another chan
Niggah I ain't dumb, ain't gonna entrap me

>>51565536
Welp. This clearly beats Cataclysm. Sorry Werefaggers.

>>51565737
>mages are monsters, but they are extremely human monsters

Human monsters are the very worst kind. You don't need rpg's to understand that inescapable point, you need only watch the news.

>it's nice to think about what happens when someone nice gets power but

Even the "nice" people don't remain so when tempted by such power and privilege.

For instance, if you use Mind to force people to act kindly and charitably, you're still denying them free will.

>>51565876

Go to the 7chan request thread, take some time to read it, maybe even download some pdf's, and then make up your mind about what is or is not safe?

>>51565924
Go away Hunter. Nobody likes you!

>>51564788
asked an archmage to transform them into lawnchairs

>>51565753
>>51565767
the bane of sunlight with vampires is less the scientific UV rays, and more of what the Sun represents. Growth Life Light. All of these are antithetical to vampires. Who are dead and static. You can't model all that Symbolic renounce into a keychain. If you want to Get really Snipy I can just point at Transform Energy being a Patterning effect

but it's a good thing we have the REACH system thou. as we could make it a weaving spell that cost extra reach.

but then again sunlight is on a sliding scale of fuck you now. so have fun with your flashlight.

>>51565924

The bait, it's just so shiny...

>>51565944
>implying it isn't one of the best gamelines

>>51565965
You're a terrible liar, Anon!

>>51565978
>Anon

>>51565924

Could we see some Merrick Institute stuff? I loved their preview.

>>51565944
I like Hunters.

>>51565978
>Implying they are lying

Mage, Hunter, and Demon are the three best nWoD game lines.

>>51565924
Are those rules for Heros I see?

>>51565996

That's not Changeling, Vampire, and Promethean. Hunter gets the number four spot.

Mummy isn't one of the best, but it's still my favorite.

Aren't Heroes basically Imbued of H:tR?

How is the Persona Yantra's dice bonus calculated? The section on it just says that it's +1 to +4 but doesn't say what's necessary to achieve the higher bonus.

>>51565991
Hunters are the Imperial Guard of CoD, constantly trying to punch above there weight limit. and you've got to love it when they pull through

>>51566029
Shadow Name Merit. if you have the cabal theme merit and they work with you, you can add an additional die

>>51566029

I believe it comes from the Shadow Name and Cabal Theme merits.

>>51565762
well, the wacko also claimed to have been a god (plus there are hints that Mithras diablerized himself to the position, so he was obviously cheating somehow. Nothing to think to clearly about, neonate, now go and destroy the Sabbat)

What's the best Conspiracy and why it's VASCU?

>>51565987
http://imgur.com/a/XM8be

Do Gangrel engage in bestiality? Asking for a friend.

>>51565956
>You can't model all that Symbolic renounce into a keychain

A mage can't model and employ symbolic resonance? Huh? That's exactly what mages do? Have you even read Mage, no less 2e? Also, the mage isn't doing anything to the keychain, he's altering the light being emitted from it.

Forces is not "control physics." It's alters, controls and creates the symbols of quintessential universal forces. While a mage proficient in Forces can certainly control UV light, he is in no way limited to such when controlling light or anything else under Forces' purview.

DaveB, the developer of Mage 2e, has also stated that sunlight is no longer anything special for Forces.

For instance,

http://archive.4plebs.org/tg/thread/42119061/#42145089

>>51566077
you spelled Cheiron wrong

>>51566077

It is the VASCU, with Knights of St. George and Cainite Heresy close behind. Though I prefer Compacts to Conspiracies.

>>51566028
Actually the imbued are, spiritually, back in the form of a compact in Tooth and Nail. They're called The Reckoning :V

>>51566025
>Vampire even being in the top five
I'll play it but let's not pretend it beats out the likes of Demon or Mage.

>>51566063
>Destroy Sabbot
>Throwing away your eternity for a bunch of lazy one percent
Ignore those fat cats and join the Resistance young Cainite ! We have cookies!

>>51566061
It seems to me that Awakening's spellcasting mechanics are just broken. You can stack so many bonuses from rotes and yantras that dice penalties from spell factors aren't really a problem. Paradox is irrelevant because you can just buy it down with mana. That just makes it boring. There's nothing to exploit or be clever with. You just ramp up the sliders you want at maximum then fire off the spell. There's no feel of risk and no sense of pulling off something really cool.

>>51566110

Vampire has the most straightforward, elegant approach to personal horror. I can really admire how clean a game is is.

Though Demon is amazing, yeah.

I'm not in love with Mage. I don't hate it, but I'd sooner play Unknown Armies.

>>51565896

Nigger you libcucks value the average human life too much. Fuck 'em, they aren't doing anything with that life anyway.

>>51566097

Dave has flat out said that Mages are stronger than Vampires.

>>51566140
Well keep in mind paradox still gets a chance die and will still increase the paradox dice pool on the next spell.

>>51565896
Perfect example right here>>51566154

>>51566161
A chance die is nothing, though. You can just plan all these spells ahead of time and hang them or have them running, having cast them in a carefully controlled safe environment over time.

Pendragon posted these absurd mage combatants on the OPP forums and they've knocked any desire to play the game out of me.

>>51566185
>Pendragon posted these absurd mage combatants on the OPP forums

Could you direct me to this?

>>51566097
Dave's post actually does prove my point. I already said going by RAW it's a patterning effect. forces4, but made the caveate that you could do it as weaving forces3 effect with a reach. Yes you can do it, but doing so with the intent to weaponize it is a bit harder

>Keychain
You're trying to pull a sun out of your ass with a small pinpoint light. yeah you're going to have to work harder for that one

nothing you've presented disprove my point

Does physical intensity have a limit? Can I spend more than one vitae per turn to boost the dice pools? So for example at bp 10 can I burn 15 vitae for a burst of +30 on an action?

>>51565987
http://imgur.com/a/qpElW

>>51566201
It's at: http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/main-category/main-forum/the-new-world-of-darkness/mage-the-awakening/1043167-can-a-mage-evenly-match-a-werewolf-in-melee-or-hand-to-hand-combat?p=1043733#post1043733

It feels like this vast block of complex rules about spell factors and paradox is all just pointless, and the Arcana might as well just be a list of effects with 'roll around five dice and then hit as big an area as you want for as long as you want, make it roughly 10 in terms of damage or buffs or whatever, it's all good, you know everything just by looking at it and you can't really be hurt by anything. Except other mages. Roll Clash of Wills when fighting another mage and whoever rolls higher wins.'

>>51565987
Those two imgur albums are pretty much everything on TMI, not counting their tactic and endowment.

>>51566171

>weeeh im a cuck neet tranny faggot who has never worked a day in my life becayse my limp wrist parrnts wont cut my parasite ass loose, clearly all men are made equal and we are ALL brothers in this war against the 1% :) now to post on my tumblr about being oppressed because someone used the wrong pronoun for me today!

The srupid dead eyed guttertrash you value so much would gladly devour you if it meant keeping a stable 4bars on their phone and another vapid capeshit film to fill the void on their slow, disease ridden road to expiration.

The sooner you accept that Everyone is ultimately your enemy, the better you will live.

>>51566140
>So many bonuses from rotes and yantras
Until Gnosis 3, you can only have 2 yantras in one spell.
Also maximum dice benefit (after negatives from spell factors and so forth is +5).
Rote Mudra can also only have max of +6 (given 5 dots and an Order speciality).

So yes, while you can get some pretty degenerate bonuses using a Shadow Name, Rotes, High Speech, and Sacraments.
In doing so, you're displaying a commitment to specialising in that area, a specific spell in that area, you're taking time to intone the language of the Supernal, and you're burning something you've gone to significant effort to acquire.

That's practically the definition of prep-time, and there are various ways the GM can make that interesting or introduce trials.

>>51566284
Sir.....this is a wendy's

>>51566306

SEE THE LIGHT, MEATBAG, AND GET ME A GODDAMN FROSTY

>>51566290
Well apparently almost every mage in mage society is a Gnosis 4+ multi-Adept. They're explicitly obsessive maniacs by default. Having a skill at 5 isn't hard, and the rote system is a mockery since it wastes loads of words on suggested rote skills for every spell but it's basically 'come up with an excuse to use that skill at 5 you have as the rote for everything'. That, High Speech and Runes gets you +9 or +10. Shadow name, yes, you're committing more by having to be additionally weird, but it seems most people go hard down that route too. So +14, and the cap of +5 isn't a problem becauase you dump that 14 into getting absurd bonuses.

And the prep time here is the extra rounds for runes and high speech. Paradox is irrelevant. The number-juggling is irrelevant because it's not actually an impediment to getting the top-end results at each Arcana dot.

It's a massive waste of time and space that looks like it should be limitations on a mage's ability to cast, but actually isn't.

>>51566398
Fuck you man, I worked hard to get all the EXP for gnosis 3 and matter 4

>>51566398

Have you actually ever used the spellcasting system in play? It sounds like you might have just perused the book and are informed by rumor.

Gnosis severely limits the number of Yantras that can be used, and most only give +1 or +2. However, each Factor step is a -2 penalty.

Further, many of the more impressive bonuses require Reach, which cannot be gained by Yantras. Extra Reach is only available by spending XP on rotes. A Reach also needs to be spent for instant casting, as every spell is ritual time by default. Casting at sensory range additionally requires a Reach, as the default is touch.

Truly impressive effects, and anything cast near sleepers, will also incur Paradox.

>>51566514

I have this sick feeling that you haven't actually read the core.

>>51566603
I've played a few games with it, the limits on yantras bonuses and amount of reach and dice penalties you need to make the spell actually useful seem to balance it out pretty well.

Technically Moon Light is just Reflected Sunlight. So why Don't Vampires burn in the moonlight? Symbolism. Check and Mate

>>51566651
They burn because the presence of the sun itself, not its light. It's magic, I ain't gotta explain shit.

>>51566633

A few games? So you haven't discovered ways to gimp the rules yet. A single Praxis can yield a +5 bonus while a Master is going to bypass Withstand on a regular basis with Praxis and personal Rotes.

>>51566651
>>51566692
But some of them DO get burned by intense moonlight. It's a 5 point flaw.

>>51566741
So shit that a Master should be capable of?

>>51566741
>bypassing Withstand

Reminds me of a previous DaveB post where he stated that a Gnosis 10 Master would decimate a BP 10 Elder. Mages get a hefty amount of dice to draw upon after a certain point.

>>51566741

Praxes don't provide spell bonuses, they permit an Exceptional Success on three successes.

Rotes permit use of Rote Mundras, which are a type of Yantra based on a specific skill.

Masters often gain Exceptional Successes because their minimum dice pool is 10, including Gnosis 5 and Arcana 5. However, they're friggin' masters, they're supposed to be somewhat rare and definitely frightening.