/hhg/ Horus Heresy General

First for scale grognards

>>51466162
>>51466252
It's

A

Planet

It's huge! It's mindbogglingly huge!

Assume it's a planet that's the same size as Earth.

That gives it a surface area of 510 million square Km, roughly. Assume only 1% of the planet's surface is given over to actually making land raiders in factory floor space that's all built at ground level. That's a total of 5 million 1 hundred and 1 thousand square Km of floor space for all the operations of manufacture. The rest is material processing, living quarters, administrative facilities, storage, archives, labs, Skitarii storage and training and marshalling and armoury facilities, space ports, defensive emplacements and anti-orbit weapons, drydocks for atmospheric-capable ships, empty, full of rogue servitors, whatever.


How much space do you think one of the US's biggest WW2 aircraft manufacturing plants, specifically the one at Willow Run, took up in it's entirety, on site support facilities and all?

330 square km.

You could fit 15457 full-sized Willow Runs onto 1% of an Earth-like planet and leave the rest barren. America did not have 15457 full-sized Willow Run scale plants during WW2. America produced more than enough tanks for more than 4 million fighting men during WW2.

The Machanicus, on one planet using only 1% of it's ground level surface area for manufacture (remember, we're not building up or down here, and we could because lol Hives), should easily be able to make enough of one type of tank for 4 million men.

They can't, somehow. This makes them look less capable than people who occupied a large slice of one half of one continent on a single world.

This is stupid.

Anyone fight Tyranids(Megarachnids)?

If so how did it go?

For a summer project I'm considering starting tyranids to use as generic big xenos. Then eventually develop an AI deck for them to make a co-op game made. I'll start small with Zone Mortalis.

>>51466681

Imagine if for every single plane put through Willow Run, there is a full-length Catholic Mass dedicated to that Plane, and production is stopped every time for each plane, and then restarted until the next plane reaches consecration time. How much time would that take up? How much of a delay would that cause?

And then multiply that by every single item manufatured on that planet, and on every single Forgeworld for that matter. Forgeworlds are not efficiant producers. They layer everything in religious symbolism and acts of devotion that are archaic and only cause waste in terms of time, energy and ease of production.

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>>51466829
>Nids in HH
Nigga, they'll still die like anything but Scoria in CC with Horus.

>>51466681
Let's just agree that there are reasons for there being so little land raiders and reasons that there should be more. Because if we are going to try and make sense out of it all we're gonna be here a while

>>51466864

This is mostly head canon fyi


Are the space dry docks full of Easter Christmas techpriests who don't go to Sunday mass?

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>>51466829
>Cannon fodder troops
>Volkite weaponry
>Monsterous creatures
>Primarch-killing units/tactics

You do the math.

>>51466894

Frankly in 30k until Anvillus falls, there really are plenty of land raiders to go around. I can run one in every slot of the force org with armored spearhead and end up with a 10,000 point army.

And if epic is anything to go by, during the heresy there really might as well have been a land raider of some sort for every Thommeth Dickus and Gerrandus

>>51466894

All this talk of Anvilus has made me deeply interested in it. I want FW to tell us more about the great Forge that produced so much for the Imperium. And Tigrus for that matter.

>>51466911

It's based on reading everything about how the Mechanicum go about making shit. It's constantly re-iterated that everything is drenched in religious acts. How many times has it mentioned that as even the most basic armour and weapons are made, prayers are chanted and sacred oils applied?

I'm reminded of this quote:

>Strike the first rune upon the engine's casing employing the chosen wrench. Its tip should be anointed with the oil of engineering using the proper incantation when the auspices are correct. Strike the second rune upon the engine's casing employing the arc-tip of the power-driver. If the second rune is not good, a third rune may be struck in like manner to the first. This is done according to the true ritual laid down by Scotti the Enginseer. A libation should be offered. If this sequence is properly observed the engines may be brought to full activation by depressing the large panel marked "ON".

All that just to turn a ship's engines on. That is how the Mechanicum works. And it is not efficient.

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>>51466681
Here's Mars. You know, the hardest working planet in technology and technology accessories.

See all that red stuff? That's all the not-factory of the planet. There's nothing being made there.

You're STILL forgetting that for each land raider, on top of the assembly line that puts it all together, you need factories that cast the hulls, factories that assemble the track links, factories that cast the track links, factories that make the pinks that connect the links, factories that manufacture the engines, factories that assemble the parts of the engine, factories that make the guns, factories that make the power plants for the guns, factories that assemble the computers, factories that make the chips that go into the computers, factories that program the chips, factories that make hinges for the ram doors, processing plants that produce the raw materials that you make the hulls, chips, engines, guns, etc., and on top of all that, you need mines to dig up all those resources to produce the ore for the processing plants.

Then there's all the warehouses that store all these materials, conveyor systems to transport materials across the planet, facilities to research new technology, facilities to test new technologies, archives to keep all the info, housing for the hierarchy of the Mechanicum, etc.

Then you need garrisons for the planetary defense force, because you're basically the heart of the Imperium's land raider manufacturing, there's bound to be a sizable force protecting such a valuable asset. That force needs to be provided with guns, armour and equipment. And living space, training space and room for all their tanks and planes.

Then you have billions of workers, who need housing, food and goods. For that you need farms, processing plants, factories, etc. And those places need resources.

For each assembly line shitting out a land raider whenever it can, you have VAAAAAST infrastructure set up to make that one assembly line work.

In fact fuck, I don't even need armored spearhead to put a land raider in every slot of my army, I'll just need breacher troops.

>>51466985

I think you're crossing over the satire of warhammer with the world building facts. Also remember the mechanicum is not the mechanicus of 40k, it was vastly superior in nearly every aspect.

>>51467006

Nearly 1/3rd of the visible ground on that picture are factoriums, that's absolutely massive.

Im genuinely curious how many nations worth of resources you think it takes to make 100 land raiders.

>>51467009

The Mechanicum are just as Religious as the Mechanicus. Their doctrines might have got more complex and convoluted over 10,000 years, but they were there from the start.

>>51467006

So you're saying that planet, which currently has a macro structure surrounding its orbit that masses billions upon billions of tonnes, has issues making enough tanks for 4 million supermen?

>>51466868
>>51466930
>Missing the point this badly
Sometimes I wonder why I even try here

>>51467044

the difference is that the Mechanicum still knows what they're doing and are religious because they don't have to do much to make their factories work.

The mechanicus lack the effectiveness of the mechanicum and are horrendously handicapped in addition.

>>51467060

Mars =/= Anvilus.

And the Ring of Iron only produces Warships. No tank or other production takes place there.

>>51467040
>factoriums

You got a source on ALL that is just manufacturing space and nothing else?

>Im genuinely curious how many nations worth of resources you think it takes to make 100 land raiders.

They don't make 100, they make thousands and thousands. I'd like you to tell me how little space tens of billions of people need in terms of living space and resources to live and work. Land Raiders might be the only thing the planet exports, but they sure as shit ain't importing everything else, unless you can show me a source on this as well. Imagine a train derailing and you have to wait for months of space travel for a new piece of track, train and cars to arrive. And for all that time everything grinds to a halt.

>>51467097

Dude that's not the point, the point is that they could build something so massively difficult that it's a working miracle of engineering that requires god like industrial capacity to accomplish.

Making tanks in comparison is absolutely trivial.

I get your headcanon is extremely strict on trying to justify why marines can't spam land raiders (even though they can) but I think you just have to come to grips that this setting is a satirical joke that uses its scale to enhance the flavor of the universe.

All that the prior anons did was point out that (intentional) absurdity. Bending your brain over backwards to justify your headcanon isn't good for you m8.

And orbital rings are not unique to Mars, Port Maw makes that look like child's play

>>51467060
You do realize Mars was cut off from the Heresy since the beginning, right?

>>51467149

I have literally no idea what point you're trying to make. What the fuck does anything after:

>they don't make 100, they make thousands and thousands

Have to do with the prior topic?

>>51467200

I don't think you could miss the point by any more than that

>>51467210

What was the topic anyway?

Weren't we arguing over the logistics of Anvilus making only Land Raiders and why its loss meant the Emperor decreed only marines could use Land Raiders?

>>51467180
>why marines can't spam land raiders (even though they can)

Where do you get that Marines don't spam land raiders?

>>51467210
The fact that your headcanon has decided that 100% of the manufacturing capacity of the planet is making land raiders. And all the resources and parts to make those land raiders materialize out of thin air and all the work force operates on good will alone.

You know how much work and how many people work to make just one car literally from the ground up? How many factories you need for it, and how much resources you need to feed and clothe all the workers, as well as keep the society itself operational to keep those workers safe and ensure everything runs smoothly.

>>51467246

The original topic was that a single decent forgeworld shitting out land raiders should have been able to drown the legions in excess land raiders, which by all gameplay accounts (holy Epic batsman) they did.

Of course after its loss and the loss of most of the land raider schematics, they became quite scarce. Loyalists could honestly have been using surplus land raiders up until the 41st millennium.

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>>51467296

Not sure how this pertains, but after reading through all the FW Books, it seems Anvilus was not just the single biggest hub of Land Raider manufacture, but also it was Tallarn on Steroids, the single biggest storage hub for all Imperial related War Material, and it was torn apart by a colossal Civil War the equal of the Schism of Mars.

>>51467227
I feel like you're moving the point further and further.

Mars is out of the picture and so is Anvillus. Now all the forge worlds that are left not only have to manufacture everything they've been making so far, but pick up the slack from Mars AND make more room for land raiders. And do it fast. And all the Army units that used to get land raiders now need new transports, so you have to increase non-land raider production as well to meet with that demand.

See how it's all tied to one another?

>>51467296

Except that's literally the fluff of Anvillus, 3 entire forgeworlds were dedicated to making only land raiders.

I realize how many people are required to perform industrial functions. I just think you underestimate what a whole high tech global population is capable of.

>>51467331

My one and only point has been that having an entire world dedicated to making land raiders should have allowed an enormous surplus of armor for the legions. That's it. I have legitimately no idea what you're arguing about besides that single point.

I fully understand Anvillus and it's land raider plans/STC got trashed, that's not in contention.

>>51467369

From what I gather, the would have been a massive surplus of Land Raiders, but they were kept in huge warehouses on Anvilus itself. So when the planets fell to civil war, tens of thousands of Land Raiders kept in storage were lost.

>>51467336
>Except that's literally the fluff of Anvillus, 3 entire forgeworlds were dedicated to making only land raiders.

So your argument is that Anvillus made NOTHING else, besides land raiders. All other things were imported and 100% of manufacturing capacity was dedicated to land raiders? Food, clothing, machinery, tools, parts, fuel, etc. were all imported?

>I just think you underestimate what a whole high tech global population is capable of.

And I think you're vastly underestimating the complexity of land raiders, the finesse of Imperial manufacturing even during the Heresy, and thinking that the only thing holding back production is the speed in which tanks can be put together.

>>51467369
You do realize Marine access to Land Raiders was NEVER a problem, right? It was everyone else who got denied land raiders. Marines got to play with them all day long, even after Anvillus got taken out.

>>51467405

That makes perfect sense. Plus again, it really does seem like the legions had a fuckton of land raiders available pre-heresy.

>>51467428

Dude I don't write the fluff. When FW says the entire point of Anvillus is to create land raiders and that they made most of the land raiders for the trillions of men in the imperial army, I take them at their word.

Yeah they'll probably manufacture basic necessities too and yes forgeworlds import most of their food. That doesn't really take away all that much from their ability to shit out WW1 tanks.

>>51467469

Again, not a point in contention. You can create the biggest straw man you'll like and it won't have anything to do with the topic at hand.

>>51467516
Look, I have no idea what you're even arguing anymore, when you bring up non-issues. So, I dunno, good day?

>>51467469
>>51467428


I think you've worked yourself up into such a nerd rage that you forgot what anyone was arguing about in the first place.

Pretty apt for a Mechanicum discussion, desu

>>51467541

This
>>51467311
Was the original topic, which by all accounts was true before Anvillus fell. Marines could use land raiders like rhinos when they felt it was appropriate.

I think all the other spittle flying came from some anons misunderstanding of the discussion, rather than any actual disagreements

>>51467491
>Plus again, it really does seem like the legions had a fuckton of land raiders available pre-heresy.

It's almost like they had 3 whole planets making them, doesn't it? Would be a shame if something was to happen to those planets and in general to the whole society that would make it more difficult to supply forces with said tanks.

>Dude I don't write the fluff.

You don't, but you do make awfully lot assumptions based on it.

>WW1 tanks

Didn't know WW1 tanks were environmentally sealed, equipped with high-energy weapons and reactor, smart-AI that can operate the entire tank all on its own, multi-layered armour of scifi materials, etc.

>>51467546
Please don't project so hard.

>>51467603

>It's almost like they had 3 whole planets making them, doesn't it? Would be a shame if something was to happen to those planets and in general to the whole society that would make it more difficult to supply forces with said tanks.

That's...yeah actually pretty much exactly my point.

What are we arguing about

>>51467629

I literally have no idea what we're disagreeing on my dude.

>>51467659
>I literally have no idea what we're disagreeing on my dude.

I have no idea, people just started bitching about Anvillus not making enough Land Raiders to last the Imperium for a million years and other forge worlds just not picking up the slack and exchanging a few escorts worth of manufacturing resources and machinery to make all the stuff a legion would every need. Stuff like that. Fuck if I know who says what, you people look same to me.

Diverting from the discussion of forgeworld and GW's notoriously bad attempts at communicating scale with incorrect numbers...

Recently started a no-tanks raven guard force, and so far the first few games have been promising.

One of the units I did add to my forgeworld order against some advice was a set of jump-pack destroyers, because I thought they looked pretty cool and seemed to fit fairly well with the "No hold barred against traitors" theme I'm trying to go for. The force as a whole is having markings done to match the organizations laid down in the novellas and deliverance lost.

The question then is how to get the most out of these destroyers on the table? a lot of the advice I'm running across is telling me to just shelve them except during Zone Mortalis games, but that seems too simplistic.

I do have the spare parts for a moritat or vigilator in my bitz box, and I saw some much older articles about running them with one of those.

I'd like to run them from 2k and up, rites or war in use are fairly flexible (mostly decap, pride of the legion, recon, drop assault vanguard)

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>>51467006
Here's the thing. That's not even Mars during the Heresy. That's Mars in M41.

This is Mars in M31, from the novella Cybernetica.

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>>51467737

Hey Steve, remember when Mars was green?

>>51467734

Jump pack vigilator, they need every fucking advantage they can get and cameoline + move through cover will let them live way longer by jumping into terrain cover.

Jump packs + rad missiles sounds baller as fuck desu.

Don't rad missiles and rad grenades stack? Capitalize on that

>>51467809

thoughts on vigilator and siege breaker together in the same squad with them? its a massive primarch-level points sink, but guarntees delivery of two phosphex bombs and a rad missile turn one. (also they'll have shrouding since I default to recon company RoW)

>>51467839

It took nearly a month for my tiny package of white scars kits to make it to Washington from FW, which is odd because it only took my atrapos 2 weeks.

>>51467734
A good option probably is as few upgrades as possible and charging them into units alongside things like assault marines to really get the use out of the rad grenades.

Or just a phospex grenade carrier sergant with the rest as ablative wounds.

Or go whatever might as well go all-in on paying too many points for one power armour unit, take rad missile launchers and go hunt rapiers and marines. It isn't that bad if you manage to keep at least one rad missile launchers dude alive, because those thing can still get a rediculeous kill count over the course of a game.

>Sudden realizes he totally forgot to field-test his destroyer unit after having painted them

>>51467894

Fuck the siege breaker, you're going to be hitting T2 marines.

>destroyers can't even take power weapons like assault marines

What's the fucking point

>>51467916
Rad missile launchers only reduce the T value of targets after they suffered a wound. As in single models. As in the majority of targets are going to be too dead for it to matter anyway.

>>51467927

That's fuckin gay m8.

Still you put castellax down to T5, that's gotta count for something.

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Pls no bully first model

>>51467989
Imagine shooting them twice. Toughness 3 castellax, who's gonna cry now ?

>>51468060

It doesn't stack with itself.

>>51467989
Get multiple characters/units with rad grenades to charge a unit. Each unit reduced their toughness by 1.

3 characters and, say, a destroyer unit charging most Marine units would kill them before any blows were exchanged purely by reducing their toughness to 0.

>>51467989
unfortunately castellax also get some defence against phosphex and rad weaponry, so that doesn't work well as a target.

>cybernetic resilince means successful poison/fleshbane has to be rerolled

>>51468115

Oh no, I have to reroll my 2+ wound roll.

>>51468175
that would be rad missile only, which will generate at most 2 hits, phosphex is poisoned 3+, where the cybernetic resilience has a much greater impact.

plus even with all that, they will kick your shit in with the innate AP2 from being MCs, a problem no other target will give you.

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Test.

>>51468055
picture quality is shit

at least you drilled your barrel/10

>>51468055
>Word Bearer standing on a field of shit.

I guess it counts as camo or something.

>>51466985
The Breaking of Anvillus is one block on the FW's HH event chart.

>>51468105
Rad grenades don't stack with more rad grenades, especially not in the same unit.

>>51469223
They aren't in the same unit. Each grenadier would charge individually.

>>51468981
I actually like Stirland Mud though? Anon just needs to add a wash and drybush and it'll look better, tbqh.

Had a battle earlier. I'm a Word Bearer, fought an Iron Warrior. Got my ass kicked. Only 1500 points

>Turn 1, night fighting
>Move my rhinos, contemptors, and Sicaran forward
>Manage to kill one of three rapiers with a contemptor, nothing else of note gets done
>IW turn
>One contemptor gets wiped, one gets immobilized, one hull point off the sicaran, one rhino explodes
>WB Turn 2
>Move rhino toward the rapiers, fucker has a Domitar-Ferrum sitting near them. Disembark, shoot plasma and bolters at it, one wound
> Sicaran also shoots, does 2 more wounds
>Contemptor and melta vets kill some tacticals
>IW Turn 2
>Domitar charges vets, lock that bitch in combat for two turns
>Havocs with lascannons finish my sicaran
>He forgets to Rapier
>WB Turn 3
>Gal Vorbak deepstrike near table edge, no scatter
>Shoot at Rapiers, do nothing
>Havocs shoot at contemptor, do nothing
>WB Turn 4
>Charge Gal Vorbak at Rapiers, none survive
>Domitar cleans up plasma vets
>Melta vets and contemptor whittle at a tactical squad
>IW Turn 4
>Tacticals and Domitar shoot at Gal Vorbak, killing one
>Lascannons clean up Melta Vets
>Domitar charges Gal Vorbak
>Kills them, but loses the fellow with the cortex controller in a challenge

Called the game there, as all I had was an immobilized contemptor. I feel like the board needed more terrain.

>>51468055
Wash the red maybe. the metal looks good!

Whats the most terror-weapony LoW for night lords, excluding edgy batman?

>>51469811
Cerastus Knight with the huge flamer and reaper chainfist.

Nothing says terror than the giant robot that burned down your hometown and tore apart anything that got in its way.

>>51469811
typhon. hands down.

if you want to retain your friends, stormblade is nice, as is the fellglaive. honestly consider what you're trying to achieve with the unit just like any other slot.

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Okay here's my 3000/3000 white scars list. Its fully WYSIWYG so I feel pretty happy about that. I've also come around to enjoying the look of twin linked heavy bolters, sue me.

HQ (610pts)
Legion Centurion (110pts)
Artificer Armour, Power Glaive
Consul
Vigilator
Legion Praetor (500pts)
Artificer Armour, Cyber-hawk, Digital Lasers, Iron Halo, Paragon Blade, Power Fist, Space Marine Bike with Twin-linked Bolter
Legion Command Squad
5x Combat Shield, 4x Legion Space Marine Chosen, 5x Power Weapon, Space Marine Bikes with Twin-linked Bolters
Elites (575pts)
Apothecarion Detachment (85pts)
Legion Apothecary
Additional Wargear
Augury Scanner, Power Glaive, Space Marine Bike with twin-linked bolters
Contemptor-Cortus Class Dreadnought Talon (290pts)
Cortus Dreadnought
Chainfist with inbuilt twin-linked Bolter, Dreadnought Close Combat Weapon with inbuilt twin-linked Bolter
Cortus Dreadnought
Chainfist with inbuilt twin-linked Bolter, Twin-Linked Heavy Bolter
Contemptor-Mortis Dreadnought (200pts)
Havoc Launcher, Twin-Linked Lascannon x 2
Troops (680pts)
Legion Jetbike Sky Hunter Squadron (150pts)
Plasma Cannon, 3x Space Marine Sky Hunters
Legion Outrider Squad (165pts)
3x Legion Space Marine Outrider, Twin-linked Plasma gun
Legion Outrider Squad (365pts)
10x Legion Space Marine Outrider
Outrider Sergeant
Bolt Pistol, Melta Bombs, Power Glaive
Power Weapon
Power Sword
Power Weapon
Power Sword
Power Weapon
Power Sword
Fast Attack (690pts)
Legion Attack Bike Squadron (100pts)
2x Legion Attack Bike, 2x MultiMelta
Legion Land Speeder Squadron (275pts)
Legion Land Speeder
Graviton Gun
Legion Land Speeder
Graviton Gun
Legion Land Speeder
Graviton Gun
Legion Land Speeder
Graviton Gun
Legion Land Speeder
Graviton Gun
Legion Seeker Squad (315pts)
9x Legion Seeker Space Marines
Additional Wargear
Nuncio-vox
Legion Rhino Armoured Carrier
MultiMelta

Lord of War (445 points)

Knight Atrapos, occulars
Legion
Legiones Astartes
V: White Scars, Loyalist
Rite of War
Chogorian Brotherhood

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>>51469988

Jesus fuck Battlescribe that is NOT how I formatted that. Sorry guys.

Alpha Legion Tartaros w/Banestrike and LCs for mopping up Sv3, good or no?
Other stuff is mainly Combi Seekers and Volkite Reavers.

>>51470094

Lightning claws or even just power weapons work fine for that job.

Siege Breaker
Delegatus, Creeping Death

Veterans, 5 combi grenade launchers, snoipahs 10 men, Rhino, Hflamer
Veterans, 6 combi grenade launchers, snoipahs, 9 men Rhino, Hflamer

Breacher Squad, 15 men, 3 flamers
Breacher Squad, 15 men, 3 flamers

Heavy Support Squad, Autocannons, 8 men
Sicaran Tank Hunter
Sicaran Tank Hunter

War Machine Detachment
Praetor Launcher with Firestorm Munitions, 2 Heavy Flamers
Dominus Triple Bombard, 2 Heavy Flamers

This look like a fun list? i'm considering building it and using it for a campaign, the idea behind it is fog shrouded infantry advance while the artillery shreds the fortifications

>>51469431
Or maybe you suffered from a lack of faith.

>>51470217
shite, forget an apothecarion detachment, 2 apoths, they're chilling with the breachers

>>51469988
looks really solid. nice mix of anti-tank and anti-infantry, both elites and chaff-clearing.

-1 fluff point for including dreads when white scars hate them (something something trapped in a box instead of allowed to freely ride)

8/10 would have fun playing against.

>>51470217
decently thematic for death guard, what points level ar you playing at? I'd be concerned about the 2 war machines getting knocked out early or incapped by enemy sicarians.

>>51470359
3k, i dont see it being the most powerful list but it seemed to pack at least a bit of a punch, the big boys are probably hanging out in/behind terrain so not terribly worried about sicarans getting to them, and if they do, its a turn where my sicarans can burn theirs out

>>51470372
what are your guards against infantry that can infiltrate/scout or outflank inside your minimum range?

I play raven guard and that's something that I often see as weaknesses in artillery heavy lists, where there is plenty of advancing firepower and things that are good at range but cannot handle something appearing danger close or inside lines.

one of the better options with creeping death is to swap the autocannon squad for some grave wardens. or bunker some seekers in the middle of your lines and use them as counterfire.

>>51470417
minimum range only applies to firing as a barrage weapon, you can direct fire within minimum range, you just dont get the benefit of barrage, ie ignoring terrain and blast flips
that said, i'll definitely consider that, though what exactly is the benefit of the grave wardens in creeping death, as they dont benefit from the rules at all really

>>51468055
like the silver details

>>51470460
creeping death means you'll generally be slow, and grave wardens have a nasty effective range for what they pack, while also being decent backline/midline CQC

>>51470476
i see what you're saying, though it feels like taking the siege breaker is a bit of a waste without a heavy weapon squad

>>51470226
Too many wrecks falling on my formations.

>>51470508
use seeker counterfire instead, or take a different consul. Master of signal comes with his own bombardment, and when attached to seekers would allow them to volley special bolt rounds at outflankers with interceptor

>>51470508
I felt a little like that, but it's just a tax. You shouldn't have to rearrange your whole list just to make it feel like you're using a rule slightly more.

My Siegebreaker just walks up and hits stuff with his hammer.

>>51470524
have to take a siege breaker for creeping death
>>51470527
thats true, i'll tinker around a bit and see what i can do

>>51470545
I'd rather have the access to tanks than jimmy everything so one dude can sit with some other dudes. 3 Vindicators or 9 missile launchers and a CC HQ?

>>51470524
>>51470527
>>51470508
my bad, forgot creeping death required a SB.

he can take an augury scanner, so you can use the autocannons as retaliation fire.

ultimately you'll need to find a way to either have enough fire (preferably with interceptor) to clear away anything that moves at you, or have a unit with the capability to charge and tie them up without being useless if you face no such threat.

>>51469232
This. I said "multiple units/characters." Rad Grenades work on per unit basis. So 10 units with rad grenades charging the same target will cause the target unit to lose 10 points of toughness.

>>51471286
This does feel like the sort of unintended rules consequence that will (a) be FAQ'd should FW learn about it and (b) lose you friends.

>>51471286
that sounds...

rad-ical

>>51471380
It's been in the game since rad grenades became a thing once more (5e Codex: Grey Knights?)

I mean, it still requires you to get 4+ units with rad grenades into combat with the enemy. 3 characters with rad grenades and a unit with rad grenades in a land raider could do it. The ICs separate from the squad upon disembarking and then they all assault the target enemy squad. Seeing that the toughness is lowered merely by launching the assault (not that they have to reach the target), at long as they all do it, any T4 or lower model will get wiped out.

>>51471541
It just seems odd that GW have always been against automatic kills (destroyer weapons/stomps bounce off 1/6th of the time, S10 fails to wound T1 1/6th of the time, characteristic tests will always be passed at least 1/6th of the time, etc.) so my feeling is they'd fix it if they were aware of it. So, yeah, I think it's bullshit, and I wouldn't play against someone that tries this.

>>51471596
the reason they've never bothered is because it is so hard to do under most circumstances as to be rendered pure theory.

Even in current 30k I can't think of an easy way to achieve such a result on a whole unit with regularity since techmarines are not ICs but a separate unit. I guess if you felt inclined you could take 2 forge lords and an iron father and give them all jump packs attached to a destroyer squad.....

>>51471633
>attached to a destroyer squad.....

Unless you separate them during the movement phase, it'll count as 1 rad grenade in the assault.

>>51471596
Yeah, well how about you don't bring your Sigismund deathstart next time?

>>51471756
that's the implication based on the current conversation thread.

honestly I've been of the optinion that deathstars are not generally healthy for the game, and having tactics like the above existing but uncommon still acts as a brake on the matter.

one of the problems ITC and other 40k tournament formats have is the removal of "unfair" mechanics that can wipe squads, without realizing that they have a place in reigning in things like wolfstars and other heavy units. fortunately 30k has more than a few such counters floating around, which makes deathstars at least slightly less common than in 40k

>>51467737
This before the giant skull?

Speaking of deathstars, I keep seeing them about. What's the thought process that leads to making a 1200 pt Primarch deathstar when there's basically no chance in hell for it to make it's points back in any way, since it's too slow? Boring to play as far as I can tell.

Seems to me it's outrageously vulnerable to having itself dismounted and kited, or tarpitted by Levies, or blown up with artillery, or any number of fairly simple counter-tactics.
The most deathstary I am normally willing to get is a couple Casty or Vorax bodyguards for Scoria or throwing my Archmagos Archimandrite a heavy weapon and having him chill with the Myrmidons.
I'm probably missing something, I'm new to 30k, but I see one in almost every game and I'm honestly confused.

>>51467737
What if it's just the other side of the planet?

>>51471912
Tournament rules are funny. I remember some local tournaments banning Aegis lines because they allowed armies to bring cheap AA.

>>51468055
nice flesh tearer

Red shouldered Word Bearers are the strongest race in the galaxy

>>51471968
Honestly, I think the thought process is normally "primarchs are cool, the models are ace and I want one, how can I fit it into an army?" rather than based around tactical considerations like whether he'll make his points back.

Speaking about Mars, why is it said in the HH that if the existence of Void Dragon on Mars is revealed it will cause the Tech Priests to go crazy and break away from the Imperium or worse.

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I can't wait for Inferno anymore.

>>51472290
Garro sez: have patience, knight-errant.

>>51471968

>Scoria

You benefit somewhat from the fact that you get the primarch-tier core of your deathstar for half the points that anyone else has to pay. I think the issue is that the primarch is costly, so they feel that they need to make sure that the points aren't wasted by adding a costly bodyguard to keep them safe, and an expensive transport to get them where they need to be (and keep them even safer). Sunk costs fallacy, it's not like they tend to need that much help killing things, and fighting other primarchs is stupid. Buffs aside, quite a number of them have a combination of good enough mobility to go it alone or with a speedy retinue for some ablative wounds, rather than chugging up the midfield along with 600+ points of terminators in a spartan. Curze, Morty, Corax and Alpharius come to mind.

>>51472106
Yeah, but looking through the existing list of Primarchs, as far as I can tell all but Ferrus and Vulkan suit deepstrike, a cheaper/lighter bodyguard or going solo better than termies+Spartan.

Horus, Pert and to a lesser extent Corax and Night Haunter can deepstrike in, Mortarion, Kurze, Corax can all go solo well, Angron, Fulgrim, Lorgar and Alpharius make better use of lighter or more numerous bodyguards, Dorn is a good fit for a countercharge squad and Guilliman works with Suzerains better than the knock-off Tyrant Siege terms. If we include him, Scoria doesn't really need anything other than a couple MCs to watch his back and keep him Fearless, so outflank in with Vorax.
Miss anyone?

>>51472513
Yeah, I can see that being a thing, and I guess it looks more thematic to have an elite bodyguard around the demigods, even if they're not really needed. 10 Termies+Primarch+Primus Medicae+Spartan is as just as much overkill as it looks, then.

Posted this about a month ago. I'm quite happy, except with the support squads. They're just jammed in there to fill up my points to be honest. 435 points I've essentially got, if you remove those support squads, what else could I do that's a bit more thematic? I was considering cortus, but someone said they didn't think I had enough bodies on the board.


Death Guard, Creeping Death, 2495/2500

HQ (280)

Praetor - Artificer, Combi, Refractor and Scythe – 140
Siege Breaker - Artificer, Combi and Thunder Hammer - 140

Elites (570)

Apothecary x2, Artificer x2, Augury Scanner x2- 120
Kheres Mortis – 180
Quad Launcher x3, Phosphex, Shatter shells - 270

Troops (930)
20 man Tac Squad, Vexilla, Artificer and Melta on Sarge – 250
20 man Tac Squad, Vexilla, Artificer and Melta on Sarge – 250
5 man Melta Support Squad, Rhino+Dozer – 215
5 man Plasma Support Squad, Rhino+Dozer - 215

Heavy Support (715)
2x Predator Executioner + Dozer – 270
2x Vindicator + Dozer (250)
Sicaran Venator + Dozer (195)

>>51472561
after asking this earlier: >>51467734

I sepnt a while looking through rules, and I seem to have hit on a thought relevant to this discussion: for corax, he is relatively shot-immune as long as you keep something infront of him, so attaching vigilator and JP destroyers + corax if you get first turn, scout 12", then move 12" and separate corax out slightly behind. you now have things in phosphex range and a unit screening corax from counter-charges, which provided you do things right and he survives the shooting, can get into very messy melee the next turn.

>>51472668
the meltas seem to be just hanging out, the plasma at least fill a niche with the AP2 weapons.

unironically, recons to improve your ability to hide your barrage weaponry.

alternate option is a vigilator and a 10-man unit of seekers, infiltrated up the board to give you midfield presence and a forward nuncio vox like the recons, as well as a flexible anti-MC/infantry/elites option.

>>51472782
Doesn't he only get his psuedo-invis if he's on his own? If you get seized on, you may well lose the Primarch. The 5/6 times you don't that would be really damn scary. Some other Primarchs can do a similar thing. Kurze can hop into cover for 2+ cover,
Mortarion teleports and cares not for your army, etc.
I don't think exactly know his melee capabilities, other than his D3 S5 AP3 HoR and his fancy stances since there was an anon a while back saying he could beat Scoria with 3 unsaved wounds per turn, no idea what he was thinking.

>>51473078
he does, but considering you can combo the trick with legion recon company and result in a 4+ or better cover save standing mooning the enemy in the open it isn't quite so bad as it might first appear.

Melee he's a blender more than a stand up fighter, the WL trait gives him old school furious charge, for S7 I8, and his kit is base 6A with options to either make yourself harder to hit or make more attacks (or wound on flat value but no one uses that one except to pen vehicles) all packaged with hit and run.

>>51473129
OK, so not exactly suited for punching wounds through 3++ and FnP, then. Thought he'd got his maths wrong . Guess he'd be jumping from heavy support squad to artillery to quad-mortars and horribly murdering things in the enemy backfield. Wouldn't want to have him run into a Thanatar.

>>51473076
Isn't having a single unit of Seekers sitting in the middle of the board just asking to have a super expensive unit totally wiped out?

>>51473500
Sorta. It's 485 points for a whole squad with the Vigilator and combo-guns, but if you mark ANY squad short of Horus and a full retinue of Justaerians, you WILL delete the squad.

But after that, your guys are fucked, so 50/50 on the usefulness. I like a squad of seekers to serve as deterrent, just load 5 into a rhino and hold the midfield with tactical bubble wrap while Terminators party through in a land raider and camp objectives.

Mix that with some Dreadnoughts and a set of Vindicators/Heavy Support/Sicarians and a LoW and you've got the template for most basic lists.

On the flip side, why do so few people field Javelins? Yeah, I know theyre expensive models but damn, six BS5 twin-linked missiles can do some serious damage for the same price as a basic seeker squad, and are fast as fuck (plus jinking!) so they can keep objectives down while giving really good suppprt. Has anyone else looked into this?

>>51468055
Some tips for a beginner would be to give the whole model a wash, and to make your scheme pop a little more, edge highlight all of the armor panels to the best of your ability. Failing that, even a very light dry brush (brighter red on the red and a grey on the black) will help bring the model to a table top standard. Other than that, just keep practicing and I look forward to seeing more.

>>51473617

>Yeah, I know theyre expensive models

Something like a pound per point, are they not? Only jetbikes beat them for that as far as I know. I feel like people would go for normal land speeders often as not, as while they're not quite as good (got to have a reason to buy that resin), you can get a whole squadron for the same money that you'd pay for a single javelin.

>>51470005
>Battlescribe

The first mistake. People always come to me asking to check their list made in battlescribe, and there is always something incorrect or an option they didn't take because it was missing.

Hello again Anons, this is what I have so far for my Blackshields force. Option 1 chymearaie.

The units taken without points costs are models I recently purchased and haven't really considered additional upgrades for.

Outside of 4x Anvillus drop pods, any suggestions for my next purchases?

HQ [ 2 ]
Blackshield Reaver Lord (172pt.)
-Cataphracti-Terminator Armour, Power Axe, Volkite Charger

Centurion Librarian Consul ( 157 pt.)
-Cataphracti-Terminator Armour, Power Axe, Volkite Charger
-Mastery level 2

Elites [ 3]
Legion Rapier Weapons Battery ( 195 pt .)
3x Laser Rapier Destroyers

Apothercarion Detachment ( 150 pt. )
3x apothecary
3x Augury Scanner

Legion Terminators
10x Cataphracti Terminators
-power axes

Troops [ 5 ]
Blackshield Marauders
20x Blackshield Marauders ( 325 pt.)
-20 Astartes Shotguns

Blackshield Marauders
20x Blackshield Marauders ( 325 pt.)
-20 Astartes Shotguns

Legion Tactical Support
10x Legion Tactical Supports ( 175 pt. )
-10 Volkite Chargers

Legion Tactical Support
10x Legion Tactical Supports
-10 Volkite Calivers

Legion Tactical Support
5x Legion Tactical Supports
-5 Volkite Culiverns

Fast Attack [ 1 ]
10x Seekers ( 255 pt.)
-10 Pariah Bolters

Heavy Support [ 3]

2x Leviathan Siege Dreadnaughts ( 620 pt. )
-1 Storm Cannon
-1 Cylconic Melta Lance
-2 Twin Linked Volkite Caliver
-2 Armoured Ceramite

10x Legion Heavy Supports ( 285 pt. )
-10 Missile Launchers

1x Legion Medusa

>>51474140
First things first, before you buy anything extra, you got all that shit painted boy?

Is there a compiled list somewhere of 40k miniatures useable in 30k? Older armour mks, acceptable Mechanicum bits etc...

If not, there definitely should be!

>>51474188
I have the infantry primed and base coated save for the terminators.

I have a fairly strong process in place regarding assembly and painting! Primed and base coated 40 astartes after assembly in four or five hours between a few days.

I would post pics but the warplock bronze I have has been heavily mixed with magnus the red tint. It's hard to capture the effect I've produced without adequate lighting.

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>>51474188
But I'm incredibly excited to be putting time into the hobby.

My paint scheme is:

20/80 Magnus the red tint Warplock bronze
Nihalak oxide
Dry brush warplock bronze
Dry brush hashut copper
Apply transfers
Nuln oil
Highlight with runelord brass

Weapons:
Iron breaker
Typhus corrosion
Dry brush ryza dust
Dry brush/edge highlight runefang steel

Bases:

Martian Iron earth + Martian Ironcrust
Dry brush Kindle Flame.

Am. Pumped to get to the bases.

It will sort of look like the attached pic. This was fairly early in testing the scheme out. This is before I mixed the warplock bronze with Magnus the red, no edge highlights and the dry brush steps after the wash is runelord brass instead of hashnut copper.

Also no nuln oil.

>>51474254
Everything that has rules in the books. There, done.

>>51474254
>Mechanicum bits
Has anyone got that 'Stay strong for the Omnissiah' pic

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>>51474501

>>51474499
Plenty of marine armour types that can't be used, so that is awful advice.

>>51474501
Knights you abomination.

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Only five more alphariuses unt-
wait

what the fuck is happening

no, we are so close to inferno, no!

>>51474635
Tbh, loads of skitarriiiii bits would be fine for Mechanicum conversions as well, not just Knights.

>>51474635
>one armour mark was invented after the heresy
>so instead of having an exception to the rule, lets make a comprehensive list we need to keep updating constantly to keep it up to date

Great plan, Eisenstein.

>>51474499
: I

>>51474699
Most 40k miniatures are either a mix of armour types or types suitable only to a few legions. A handy checklist with conversion ideas is not the rage-inducing suggestion you seem to think it is.

>>51474761
No, this is a stifling, unwieldy, autismo-maximus pattern idea.

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>>51474761

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>>51474761
>or types suitable only to a few legions
Fuck off with this meme. Anyone can wear Mk VI, especially if they were at Isstvan V.

>>51474761
>Most 40k miniatures are either a mix of armour types

Most space marine infantry models come in bits, so if you have trouble picking the MkIV and VI bits out from all the others, that's a problem you need to consult a professional on.

>types suitable only to a few legions

All legions used all marks.

>A handy checklist with conversion ideas is not the rage-inducing suggestion you seem to think it is.

Fine, do it. Then we can nitpick it to death and find exceptions to all your assertions.

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>>51474840
>DG
>MkII
>iconic

>>51474699
Seems like a great idea to me, but this general isn't what it used to be.

>>51474840
Even this POS has to have clarifications in footnotes, and not all the assertions about are actually as accurate as they could be.

>>51470340

I actually was thinking of incorporating those unusual dreads into the fluff of this particular Horde.

My idea was to set this army during the Scars retreat towards Terra and cut off from the main legion force, so they're taking extreme attrition losses and only resupply what they can steal.

After a while, they have a bunch of stolen dreads and a bunch of otherwise crippled marines. Some volunteers agreed to be interned in dreadnoughts with the understanding that they'll get to die in battle in the not too distant future.

So it's a divergence from standard chogorian culture but only for the duration of an emergency. My battle of Terra army won't have any at all.

>>51474840
That is super awesome, thank you!

>>51474911
>>51474931

I didn't make it, and fwiw I think there might have been an updated version later on in that thread.

>>51474925
Get on it then.

>>51474853
This. What happened to "your dudes?" If the models don't match with hyper-sperg attention to the fluff, then make your own story.

Did they go on a desperate raid to capture these prototypes? Are they using old armor because they're poor/nostalgic? Heretek-upgraded armor?

Literally anything except Mk VII is fine. Even that can work if you scrape off the Aquila and add some studs to the head/use beaks.

>>51473370
thanatar isn't too bad given furious charge, the fact his weapons are AP2 and shred, and the innate weaponskill advantages.

the things that usually end up scaring me are heavy save terminator squads. characters tend to be ok-ish since he makes up for things in volume of attacks, but his weak invuln means you have to be somewhat careful. I will forever find it amusing that shrike or a praetor rock a better invuln than their primarch ever did.

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>>51474642
Maybe Dorn can fix it!

>>51474911
If it's of any weight to you, Jes Goodwin considered MkII to be the iconic Death Guard armour.
But then he also said that MkIV is the iconic Thousand Sons amour and that's not noted in the graphic, so.
Not that it actually matters.

>>51474853
For sure, but to be fair only after certain points.

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>>51474840
>Imperial Fists
>Mark IV
>uncommon
No.

Also they were the legion guarding Terra. They would have had access to Mark VI, and it existed before the heresy so it would be feasible for command or elites/fast attack to use MkVI at any point.

The list is pretty stupid.

>EC's most iconic not being Mark V
>White scars having more access to Mark III than to Mark IV

>>51474642
>>51474950
the shitposting singularity that will happen once inferno comes out is start to spill backwards into time

>>51474945
>Literally anything except Mk VIII is fine.

FTFY.

MkVII came during the siege, so one can make Siege of Terra era army of that period with those suits, as long as you make sure they all got aquilas on the chest, because that was the thing with the suit. Later kits came with a wide variety of torsos, but aquila torsos are the kosher late HH era ones.

Old fluff also makes non-studded and non-exposed cable MkV official, stating that MkIV armour material and cabling was used when available (thus cabling fits under the plates and no need for extra layers of armour to get riveted on). Also that MkIV helmets were sometimes used on MkVs. So take a MkVII with X-cable torso and a MkIV helmet and it's all good.

I'm making my DG with old art in mind, so they'll really give armour autists a run for their money.

>>51474945
As originator of the suggestion I totally agree with this and I have no problem with people doing whatever they want. However, for people who want to make an iconic version of a legion, it would be really handy to have a list of cool conversion parts.

Plus I'd argue that there's an element of "you need to know the rules before you can break them".

>>51475035

I thought the X cable "Mk7" chest pieces in the common tactical squad box were actually Mk5?

>>51474840
I put some mkVII heads on my boys for the sake of variety.

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>>51474950
Can Dorn fix it?
No he can't.

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>>51474966
Then why does his sketch have them in MkIII with a MkII helmet?

>>51475009

>white scars have more access to Mk III than Mk IV

Yeah that bothers me considering all my FW approved outriders, jetbikes and javelins all have mandatory mk IV.

Plus Horus was friends with Khan, he probably expected him to join him. It wouldn't be surprising if the few resupply shipments the Scars got were Mk IV

>>51475009
>>51474853

as an RG player, I don't get why others get thier gears in a twist over this. Mk VI was in extended field trials with most legions (notable exception! iron warriors because of perty's disdain) and RG only got the name because of the number of implemented suggestions (and something to do with nearly getting shitbricked at isstvan)

So pretty much any mark other than I, VII, and VIII is perfectly fine, and even then mark VII can be fixed with a little bonding stud work and a swap to a beakie head (grab the raven guard VI helms and file off the legion icons)

>roll into GW store to have scheduled HH game
>playing the local nazi
>he stares at me through his circular glasses with his beady eyes as I unpack
>uncomfortably think of something to complement him about to break the atmosphere
>"I like your floor-length leather coat my dog, where'd you get it?"
>He mumbles something about his mum buying it from some surplus store or something then starts telling me about how Wehrmacht uniforms were designed by Hugo Boss or some shit, again
>Breaks off in the middle of his speech when he sees my new tac squad
>"A-a-are those guys in M-M-MARK SIXXX?!!"
"Yeah man, I found some of my original beakie box set in my bitz box, they fit okay with the new stuff, little small bu-"
"YOUR LEGION CAN'T HAVE MARK SIX!!"
"Eh?"
"THAT'S AN ILLEGAL ARMY, REMOVE THAT UNIT!"
"What the fuck man, uh, no?"
>Pushes up his glasses and goose-steps off in a huff complaining about how this wouldn't happen if he were in charge.
>Start to pack up as I hear him in the background ranting to the guy who only paints "can you BELEEEVE he brought MK VI power armour, he knows NOTHEENG what an MORAN players like him are why I stopped playing 40K!!"
>And that's how I became the prince of Bellis Corona

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>>51475009

>>51475084
Who can say anon?

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>>51475134

>>51475152
>>51475101
>>51475134

since this is funny and I want to get nitpicky. Most RG armies using veteran tacticals, seekers and recons should actually be using MK IV and V, since until several years after the dropsite massacre and battle of ravendelve the bulk of the available Mk VI, both terran-produced and from kiavahr were being utilized by the raptors and mor deythan (assault companies and advance scouts) Agapito's Talons were predominantly still using Mk IV retrofitted with early/prototype masking technology. It was only some not-insignificant time afterward that the legion became predominantly Mk VI.

this was also the reason I was quite happy to see plastic mark IV.

>>51475134
This WILL happen to you, if it hasnt already... and it all started because some nazi, pond-scum cunt had the gall to request a list of 40k conversion bits.

What a hateful neckbeard!

>>51475249
But RG were the ones heavily prototyping the MkVI, so wouldn't they have those stocks to use?

>>51475285
So true.

>tfw power outage at work
Well, I got nothing to do but dick around on my phone now.

>>51475249
>and I want to get nitpicky
By all means, it's why we're all here.
I'd argue the "mkV" is Corvus in books, as Gav seems the type of guy not to ignore such stuff. It's MkVI only post-Heresy and out-universe.

>>51475293
in some cases, but much of it was in use, and much of that was lost during the DSM. there was likely some spread around, and it's the reason I model sergeants and the like in mk VI even though they are talons, since they would have had access to the remaining supplies.

>>51475349
>le ebbin MkV was a post-Heresy designation to any clobbered together suit of power armour may-may

top kek, 10/10, would tip fedora

>>51475339
>tfw power armour shortage at work
Well, I got nothing to do but dick around in my mk III

>>51475597
A unit of thousand sons in mk6 beakie armour, yay or nay?

Not sure what yet, probably as veterans.

>>51475293
Also don't forget Alpha Legion, since they stole some of the RGs prototypes and reverse engineered them and are producing their own.

>>51472668
Might Breachers with special weapons be a useful replacement for the support squads? I don't want isolated Rhinos moving up alone

>>51475249

>years

Read deliverance lost, RG get resupplied with Mk6 months after Isstvaan, not years

>>51475009
Hardly anyone associates the EC with Mk V... they may have ended up using it a lot, but it flies in the face of their perfectionist nature. That said, FW might take them in that direction. The black books are still pretty early into the Heresy and have only barely touched on post-Chaos EC.

As for WS, they're described as having older equipment and spending the first four years of the Heresy focusing on ship-to-ship action. That makes Mk III sound reasonable. Very little has been written about their time on Terra, so whether they're given a bunch of Mk IV or skip straight to Mk VII remains to be seen.


>>51474945
>What happened to "your dudes?"
I'm fine with Mk VI in any legion as long as there's a story behind it, but it's basically ignoring the archetypes and preferences there are so well-established in the fluff. It's like playing an army of Emperor's Children destroyers. Would they really use stuff that causes their beautiful hair to fall out and their skin to pock and flake? I could see someone pulling it off, but it'd take a lot of effort or I'd just think they didn't understand the Emperor's Children at all. And that would be a turn-off.

You basically have to try harder to convince other players you're not just being lazy.

>>51475009
HMmm maybe crusading at the edge of the galaxy and rarely stopping to resupply meant they didn't have much mk4, and mk3 suited their running for long time approach

>>51475684
Yay. Raven armour for prognosticators and seers is a beautiful thing.

>>51475973
Why would you have to convince players you aren't being lazy? Why would I have to convince anyone of my purchase decisions, my painting decisions?

I'm not sure where your entitlement comes in. The Emperors children HAVE destroyers. The White Scars have a Dreadnaught

>>51474931
It's just a guide - plenty of people ask, "Which marks are more appropriate for (insert legion)?" It's absolutely appropriate to say that Death Guard preferred Mk III over Mk IV, and widely accepted that they look more right in it. That's not stopping you from using Mk IV, it just means you should feel bad about it. (Kidding - it just means you need to add more story than whoever's using Mk III).

>>51476107
Because if you ruin my immersion I can find more interesting players to do battle with.

>>51476116
Why would you need to "add more story" ?

Hey my dudes have MKIII because all of the legions probably have progressed through the different MKs as they where developed.

>>51475134
>local Nazi
>goose steps
You win da internet captain XDDD

>>51476154
So you have the right to dictate how I spend my money, spend my time and play the game? If I don't submit you won't play with me.

Hmm, sounds like you wouldn't be worth playing games with in the first place.

>>51475293
>heavily prototype
What is Pertuabo demanding his slaves make a million everyday so he can put them all on a rocket, to fire at Deliverance, and then explode into a pattern of 'you were wrong'

>>51476154
>and lo the overblown deliberately ridiculous story told earlier to illustrate how overblown and ridiculous the armor point is, is actually made by someone in full seriousness

oh god i'm gonna cummmmm

>>51476183
I'm not dictating anything. You can show up with a My Little Pony chapter if you want. "Your dudes" and all that.

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>>51475973
>It's like playing an army of Emperor's Children destroyers.
Read the text. Some Destroyers shared inter-legion ties by the weapons they used in the same vein as the later warrior-lodges.
And by the way, even the Salamanders had few squads of Destroyers, most likely a remnant from before Vulkan found them.

>>51474642
BRACE YOURSELVES MEN

WE ENTER INTO THE EDDIES OF THE WARP

SHITPOSTING IS ALL THAT AWAITS US IN THIS DARK REALM

THOUSAND SONS ARE TOO RANDOM

SPACE WOLVES ARE TOO OP

MADNESS BECKONS

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>>51476280
we're fucked

>>51476240
There is a significant difference between your dudes in mkIII power armor and a my little pony chapter.

Denying a game is exerting control, claiming it ruins your immersion which is sufficient reason to not play with someone is placing an expectation or dictating the circumstances you would allow someone to game with you.

Sorry, you can't back pedal out of your statements.

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>>51476301
>No Rogal Dorn model
Good news! They actually snuck out a little teaser of him.

>>51476382
Ewwwww

>>51476382
And today a little piece of poop snuck out of my ass without me noticing when I jumped up on my bike

>>51476310
Chiming in on this.
If you don't have fond memories playing against red solo cup drop pods, or snow white primed 'nids, or rushing to paint you army four days before the game, I don't think this game is for you.
It is equal parts competition to win games or paint better, and those purely human moments where you just need to smile and accept the situation for the fun moment it is.

>>51476310
I won't backpedal; I would still prefer to play someone who's more narrative-minded. Last player on earth? Yeah, I'll play you.

Though I'd never have an issue with Mk III armor. There's no sharp cutoff... Mk VI IW would be puzzling, and on the other end there's playing against an obvious 40k army. No problem if it's a player on the verge of converting to 30k, but if he keeps using it I'm just going to use a 40k army against him. 40k doesn't have the historical restrictions that 30k does.

>>51476663
You are the worst kind of player

>>51476663
>literally won't play someone with a corvus tac squad if he thinks said tac squad should be in iron armour instead

w e w l a d

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>>51476419
Drop Cup Assault army coming through (my friend is a great painter but has no goddamn shame with proxying)

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Right lads, I know everyone loves mathammering primarch-on-primarch fights. So, with less than a week to go before we see their rules, place your bets: who do you think will statistically win a fight, Leman Russ or Magnus the Red? No sitting on the fence, no "it depends on random factors like psychic powers", just come down one way or the other - who will the maths say wins?

http://www.strawpoll.me/12234228

>>51476897
I WANT to play against that army now lol.
That's brilliant, what is the cup on the flying base supposed to be?

>>51476924
It was a Dreadclaw Drop Cup

>>51476937
Why didn't he cut up another cup for the claw part?

>>51476953
Because he's actually gonna buy and paint the real models eventually. I was kinda peeved he used a single size of cup for dreadnought drop pods and standard drop pods but such is life.

>>51476663
>ok so this is my tac squad with commander
>ummm those marines are wearing 40k armour
>what?
>autism intensifies
Kys

>>51476971
But it was a fun game wasn't it?

what drink do you have when you play friendly games? I like Hefe

>>51476901
We all know it's gonna be Russ because 'MUH WOLFSES' and GW not wanting to upset the yiff lovers :^)

>>51476987
Water usually. I get anxious whenever I play Warhammer and don't wanna puke on the toys.

>>51475819
>200 suits and a blueprint is enough for 4500 dudes

Can you fail at reading comprehension any harder?
>>51475249
>bulk of the available Mk VI, both terran-produced and from kiavahr were being utilized by the raptors and mor deythan

Sources: novellas, FW books, and basic fucking math

>>51477050
All of those poor poor solo cups, and not a single drop of beer in them.
It's okay man, I may not understand why you get anxious enough to feel sick, but I am glad you aren't about to puke all over my mini's.

>>51476999
I doubt it. Horus kicked his ass easily.

>>51474853
I hate autist who, when see DG or IH in mk IV scream "Heresy" or act like complete retards.

>>51477176
>Horus beats Russ
>Therefore Russ can't beat Magnus
Guess the Emperor can't beat Magnus either.

>>51476693
I second this.

>>51477468
Alright fine, Angron kicked his ass also.

>>51477498
Guess...

hmmmm

Did Angron ever beat anyone important?
I suppose he save Lorgar from Guilliman that one time, and considering Lorgar is Lorgar we can assume his contribution was minimal, so...

>>51477468
>>51477498
Actually, never mind. My reading comprehension is fucking atrocious. Call me a fucktard and let's move on.

>>51477543
Well, ok.
What will Magnus' rules look like? I assume a Lorgar-tier statline, maybe with S7 and T7 because of how McLargeHueg he is.

>>51476901
It'll be Russ in a raw, no Psychic Powers allowed fight.

The Axe/Sword combo will do something like let him make extra attacks for causing wounds.

>>51477603
Generally 6's across the board with probably a 4 or five for attacks. Maybe I:5.

He's damn tough so maybe T:7. Maybe W:7 instead. I'm worried about his psychics however.

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>>51477640
Don't forget his doggos.

>>51477686
Seeing as Russ and the puppers are sold seperate I assume they're optional addons, so he only gets to have their help if he loses in a straight fight, by rule of Vacuum mathhammer. Same with other "pets", I assume, so it can be Russ vs Scoria or Russ/Dogs vs Scoria/Homonculex.

>>51477176
That's right after he tore the wolf-kin to shreds.

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What you guys working on today? Neatening this bad boy and adding some finishing touches to a couple of guys myself.

>>51477830
Was it straight up SoH vs SW or did Horus have some bros with him?

>>51477871
Most likely wolves on wolves, afterwards he sent WE, AL, TS and a first company detachment led by Abaddon to finish the cull at Yarant.

We shall not suffer the armour autist to live

>>51476901
Russ wins with no psychic powers, Magnus will be a better Lorgar so depending on his psychic powers he may as well be the strongest primarch.

>>51477926
No anon, you are the armour autist.

>>51477653
Mastery Level? 4 or 5? And what tables does he roll off? I reckon five, and should know every power on those mini tables anon set up.

>>51477926
Gonna do my whole Death Guard with mark VI and VII
:^)

>>51478011
The rules for The Voidwatcher of the Hektor Heresy show how to make a not horribly broken psuper psychic Primarch.

>>51478205
Post em

>>51478205
>>51478222

Not that anon, but one google later:

PTS WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv
The Voidwatcher: 500 6 6 6 5 4 5 5 10 3+/3++


Unit type: Infantry, Independent Character.

Wargear: Blackened Plate, Staff, Warpfire Aura.

Special Rules: Adamantium Will, Arcane Studies, Bulky, Crusader, Eternal Warrior, Fear, Fearless, Fleet, Independent Character, Quiet Corruption, Slow and Purposeful, Sublime Arrogance, Warp Step.

Blackened Plate: An ornate suit of black-runed power armor. The Voidwatcher never bothered upgrading to artificer or terminator armor, trusting in his sorcerous might for defense.

Staff: Perhaps this staff has a name, but if so, The Voidwatcher has never shared it. This weapon is a simple unadorned rod, so black as to look more like a hole in the air or a shadow than a three dimensional object. What it was made from, none save the Voidwatcher know, but every strike warps reality, compromising armor and twisting flesh. The weapon strikes with the following profile: S:U, AP- Fleshbane, Warp (for every hit taken from the Voidwatcher, a model subtracts 1 from its armor save for the remainder of the game. Has no affect on AV).

1/?

>>51478302
Warpfire Aura: In combat, The Voidwatcher's armor was covered with a Subtle flame, appearing to most as an inconspicuous flicker. Upon being struck, however, the flame surges outward with great force, dissipating the force of a strike in a grand detonation before sinking into silence once more. The watcher has a 3++ invulnerable save. Additionally, for each hit against the Voidwatcher in melee he does D6 S2 AP- hits against the attacking unit.

Arcane Studies: His many years of studying sorcery and the lore of the warp gave the Voidwatcher an expansive, if shallow, knowledge of the arcane. The Voidwatcher is a ML4 psyker. Yeah, I went there. He can roll on any psychic discipline in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook in addition to the Tzeench, Slaanesh, and Nurgle disciplines. Yes, I'm really doing this. But here's the catch: the Voidwatcher may never gain psychic focus on any discipline, and may not roll for more than 2 powers on any one discipline. Additionally, witchfires do not count towards the number of powers he's cast that turn.

Quiet Corruption: No many would ever be so foolish as to call a primarch weak, but the Voidwatcher... He was not his brothers' equal in physical matters. When his brothers had been smithing and warring, the Voidwatcher had been studying. When his brothers had been pushing their godly forms to the limit, the Voidwatcher channeled the energies of the universe, and those energies changed the careful biological tailoring the Emperor gave his son. The Voidwatcher loses 1 point of toughness and 1 wound from the basic primarch profile (already included in his profile), along with the It Will Not Die special rule.

>>51478316

Sublime Arrogance: The Voidwatcher was unrivaled in his arrogance. He was a Sorcerer Lord, second in all the galaxy to only his father. Why should he walk among mortal men, or rush about on the field of battle like a mortal? The Voidwatcher may never join a unit or be joined by other characters. Additionally, he may never share a transport with any other unit, and gains the slow and purposeful special rule. Additionally, he will only ever fail any leadership based test on a double 6 (does not affect psychic perils).

Warp Step: The Voidwatcher gains the Deep Strike USR, and does not scatter.

I do so love making the traitor primarchs Fun!*. The Voidwatcher is a glass cannon of the best sort, a ML4 sorcerer that can toss out as many spells as he has warp charges for, especially if you use a lot of witchfires a la Ahriman, and an allied detachment of daemons with some pink horror batteries for him to drain can give him a truly silly amount of psychic dakka. But on the other hand, he won't join your boys, won't share a ride, and is actually really fragile, even considering that 3++. He's also the worst duelist primarch bar none, and he'll need to use psychic powers to keep up in melee, though his staff is worthy of consideration. Though most enemies who know anything about him won't dare charging him with a primarch, because he'll ruin their armor. His warpfire hits won't do jack shit to a primarch, and barely scratch a marine's armor, but it'll cause GEQs and minor daemons to spontaneously combust (each attack will have a 33% chance of killing them, and 2 or 3 attacks on the charge). Use him right, and he can be a towering pillar or psychic rape. Use him wrong and he'll die like a bitch to a single Fury of the Legion from a tac squad.

FIN.

Looks cool to me, honestly

>>51478333
I'm skeptical towards the sort of homebrew, but this indeed sounds like a job done good.

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>>51478316
>When his brothers had been smithing and warring, the Voidwatcher had been studying. When his brothers had been pushing their godly forms to the limit, the Voidwatcher channeled the energies of the universe, and those energies changed the careful biological tailoring the Emperor gave his son.

>>51478372
So while anon was posting, I went and dug up the Primarch template, which is currently being "Reworked".
https://1d4chan.org/index.php?title=User:Josman&diff=prev&oldid=375002

>>51478405
>the barbarians are at the gates
Let them in, the only thing they'll do is spend their money on Big Wahoonie t-shirts and everything they could possibly steal is stolen property anyway

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Do we already have leaks or do people want some quick phonepics

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>>51479239

>>51479272
a tale of four warlords.

is that 40k or AoS?

>>51479325
Sounds AoStistic to me.

>>51479325
Age of sigmar
>>51479394
We've had 40k ones in the past just not this time around

>>51479394
>>51479450
>aos

I'll pass.

>>51479239
phone pic my life bb, i want it all

>>51479239
designers' notes on the eldar models pls

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>yfw Inferno finally comes out

>>51479708
Posted on the discord and waiting for someone to stick them all together in a collage. So go there if you can't wake and @ the poster if things are unclear

Fuck me, the plastic cataphractii terminators are sexy. Assembled one of the fuckers today.

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>>51479826

Playing in a 30k league at my flgs, our next round is 1250 points and using the challenge mission from the shadow war campaign (kill the enemy warlord with your warlord to win). I'm running Mechanicum with the following list:

+Archmagos Ordinator (archmagos, ordinator, abeyant, machinator array, cyber familiar, cortex controller, infravisor, 2 power fists, mastercrafted photon thruster) 295

+20 tech thralls (carapace armour, rite of pure thought) 100
+3 Thallax (3 heavy chainblades, photon thruster) 175
+2 Castellax (2 darkfire cannons, enhanced targeting array) 280

+Krios Tank 125
+Krios Tank 125
+Krios Venator 150

Archmagos sits with the thallax, geared him up to take on both ranged and close combat.

>>51479239
>>51479272
No HH inferno?

>>51479947
Yeah that's going to be a problem. Thankfully this drought will end. We've had some down right God awful threads, and we had some decent.

>>51479826
I think it'll be fine. I'm not expecting 100% balance, but we're talking about legions here, it's not going to be anything too out of whack. And the fluff may be contentious but the old fluff was never very strong for this battle.

I'm just looking forward to the two legions getting full rules. Then it'll be three left to finish, and they already have enough to be playable.

>>51477926
I mix armour marks

>>51479948
Most 1250 point astartes armies will struggle against those Krioses. You'll have to endure complaints until they're ready for a tank and MC-heavy opponent by the time the next round starts.

>>51479953
Since the last reboot, White Dwarf normally has stuff they've already revealed, rather than being a teaser for what's coming up. For example, the big thing in that issue (40k ynnead stuff) has already been shown on social media.

>>51479948

Seems very light on bodies to hold objectives, also you might want to consider the ordinator camping in cover near the castellax, because as it is you're removing one of the thallax best qualities of being a fast objective grabber by anchoring them with the archmagos.

>>51479963
I'm just happy the SW/1Ksonfags can get their legions even if they're going to be the end of /hhg/.

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As requested, part 1 of 3.

Who pilots/drives World Eater vehicles when they go full Khornate? This seems bad enough with the Nails alone. Could World Eaters in the 41st Millennium still have battle brothers who take the wheel?

>>51480081
>WE NEED A NEW DRIVER THIS ONE IS DEAD!
Maybe they get cultists or daemons to do it.

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>>51479953
White dwarfs are written 6 months in advance, so it wouldn't be as they planned for December. And it's +2 weeks -2 weeks of products are shown from when the white dwarf is released. So the page is just this

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>>51480036
The round has no objectives, the only way to score VP is through killing the enemy warlord with your warlord. The mission is in the pic.
I messed up and should have said the archmagos goes with the thralls or solo depending on the opponent's army.

>>51480081

No one, they jump out to get stuck in.

Who needs vehicle support anyway

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>>51480054
2 of 3

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>>51480054
>>51480131
3 of 3

>>51480081
World Eaters who give Road Rage a whole new meaning or maybe expendable cultists/serfs.

>>51480081
I don't know, but the Word Bearers beat daemons into submission and force them to drive/pilot their vehicles and vehicle guns instead of servitors.

>>51480158
>the croneswords of morai-heg
>it is said that, if wielded in the right hands, they have dominion over life and death.
All three characters are wielding the swords in their left hands. Eldar confirmed doomed.

>>51480292
>First captain?
>Tes, erebus?
>Why do you think the pantheon is sending us shitty daemons for the gal vorbak now, rather than the strong creatures we received at first? It's like we've offended them somehow.
>I have no idea. Now, if you'll excuse me, my daemon-chauffeured rhino has arrived.

>>51480362
>In the background, you can hear him swearing at the Rhino.
>The Rhino is whimpering in fear and submission.

>>51480121
take scoria and laugh?

if that's the case though, you might want to consider getting a dominus and rolling him with the archmagos in the thallax crew to absorb challenges/wounds and go warlord hunting.

>>51480362
>>Why do you think the pantheon is sending us shitty daemons for the gal vorbak now, rather than the strong creatures we received at first?
I never understood that part of the fluff.

>highest quality daemon-marines ever
>second wave at Isstvan V - missed the hardest part of the battle
>assignment: shoot unwary marines in the back
>lose all but 5 gal vorbak

They can't have been very good!

>>51481066
>all but 5
I'll check Betrayer again but I thought it was just Argel Tal left and then he makes a completely new chapter of guys


And it's mainly an explanation for how they aren't at Calth

>>51481066
They may have been the greatest possessed marines, but they were still Word Bearers

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>>51481327
gonna need a burn unit here.

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>>51481327

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Going through Scars again and some other WDs trying to find stuff about WS dreadnoughts.

What stuck out to me was the line about how Shiban would have been in a dreadnought were he in another legion, yet he was still combat capable.

That seems to imply that in most other legions you get interred without any sort of consent on your behalf.

>congratulations Titus, you're a grandrobot!

While in the Scars it seems that they at least ask the legionnaire before putting him in, the vast majority of whom obviously say no.

But it does leave room for a couple of crazy guys to seek vengeance or something from a (fleet and move through cover, naturally) metal box.

>>51481466
>That seems to imply that in most other legions you get interred without any sort of consent on your behalf.

Its always been the case, the only requisite for being in a dread is if you're bad ass enough to be indispensable and if there are enough dreads available but if you're in the Marines you serve until you die then you serve some more and say thanks to the Emperor for allowing you to be of service.

>>51481466
Only the Grey Knights are specifially mentioned in 40k lore that being interred requires approval of the fallen brother. I assume then, that it must be the same for thw WS.

>>51481466

>Brother you will not survive, would you like to be interred in a Dreadnaught.
Did you kill all traitors?
>No, Brother, some escape.
...
>Brother what is your choice.
... They still live?
>Yes, Brother, but what is your choice?
PUT ME IN A LEVIATHAN! I AM GOING TO MURDER THEM ALL!

>>51481066
Corax wrecks a bunch of them. It's what prompts Lorgar to confront him.

>>51481530

Makes sense really. White Scars are still human enough in culture that they don't automatically condemn their brethren to a living hell.

>>51481559

Yeah that's pretty reasonable. They don't explicitly say it but the one canon WS dreadnought so far was made that way.

>>51481593

Give my drop pod handle bars and a big ass muffler.

>>51481530
>>51481466
Additionally, there are a few times a conscious marine specifically requests not to be interred, preferring to die or take their chances.
Similarly, there are a few times in the fluff that a marine passes out from their wounds and wakes up to being a dreadnought.

>>51481327
lorgar BTFO

>>51481651

What would really fucking suck is if some veteran sergeant were given a cortus contemptor because the situation has become desperate, and then cortus can survives to another campaign only to see some shitty tactical noob get interred in a leviathan.

>>51481327
DELETE THIS

>>51481704
Worse is when you're head of top brass, your commander slaps you and you wake up as a cortus

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>>51481704

I'm actually not certain if the sarcophagus itself is permanently affixed to the chassis. I had the impression from Know No Fear and Betrayer that they will take the sarcophagus out of the dreadnought to put it to sleep.

In that case one dreadnought pilot could switch chassis in case of damage or upgrades.

I may be completely wrong though.

>>51476397
Ah, the turtle-head

>>51481593
>>51481621
The (partial) problem with the WS is that a lot of their campaigns seem to involve landing a large ground force and letting that force drive around without orbital assault. A dreadnought can't keep up. Though now I'm picturing a squad of 5 bikers towing a trailer with a dreadnought tied to it...

And of course, they do occasionally get to deploy via drop pod. They're good with fleet battles too. I don't know if a Leviathan is too big to punch its way through a ship, but Contemptors are fine.

>>51482269

to be fair between Prospero and Terra the WS performed approximately one SI fuckton of boarding actions, so having some dreads in Zone Mortalis ain't bad at all.

>>51482269
>>Not a giant dreadnought size warbike

I mean I like your idea too but imagine the possibilities

>>51482391

t b h I don't get why dreadnought tanks and aircraft aren't a thing in 30k. They can apparently hook that sarcophagus up to anything.

40k obviously lost any idea of how to do that.

Anyone have experience with the Averlamd Sunset Primer? Imperial Fists are badass but shelling out 400-500 dollars to start an army that I know I'll only turn ugly and thicc has turned me off it for a long time.

The Autists warriors were a good start but I'm tired of all the bitter shit, and fists are cool as hell

>>51482480

I've seen good results. Always shake the can before using it and spray a leaf or something first to make sure the paint will be applied correctly.

From there its easy peasy, honestly.

>>51482422
Oh man, that's a great WS special unit idea: the DREADBIKE.

Probably more similar to an attack bike, for stability. A tricycle. With snippy claws.

>>51482269
>now I'm picturing a squad of 5 bikers towing a trailer with a dreadnought tied to it...
Like a chariot for dreadnoughts?

>>51482269
>I don't know if a Leviathan is too big to punch its way through a ship

A leviathan will make the ship big enough to punch through.

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>>51466681
>>51467060
FUCK YOUR 4 MILLION SUPERMEN
THERE WERE ONLY HALF THAT NUMBER OF MARINES IN THE WHOLE GALAXY REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

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>>51482525

Just replace the dreadnought legs with quad tracks. Use chariot rules, I guess.

>>51482622
>EVEN IN DEATH I STILL SWERVE

FTFY

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>>51482781

>dreadnought with jink and skilled rider

>>51482814
>ywn have a Mongol robot flying through a wall, yelling "OH YEAH!" and shooting everything up with his superspeed Tartaros bodyguard

>>51482870

That legitimately sounds like my last zone mortalis game t b h

>>51482525
>>51482622
>letting old people drive

Do they treat all terrain as Dangerous Terrain?

>>51482939

Yes but skilled rider auto passes dangerous terrain so its cool

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>>51468105
>>51469232
>>51471286
>>51471380
>>51471541
>>51471596
I think FW already said rad grenades don't stack with each other. Not multiples in a single unit, not three ICs charging the same enemy, not in any way whatsoever.

>>51469223
This

>>51471633
>Even in current 30k I can't think of an easy way to achieve such a result on a whole unit with regularity since techmarines are not ICs but a separate unit.
You said it, Forgelords.
But the DG has it easier when you could give the Thurible to an Enfeeble Librarian with rad grenades.
That's -3T from a single character.
And then you bring a single allied Magos or Scyllax Rad Furnace unit, declare a charge and a 2W T4 terminator deathstar suddenly dies before I10.

If you can only reach -3T due to a lack of allied Mechanicum/the enemy isn't allowing relics, then you're still deleting those pesky 50-Levy and 20 Fearless Thrall blobs.

Be mindful that both of the Rad Bearer units can also be using jump/jet packs, and even if you only get -2T, you're still attaining ID at I10 due to HoW.

>Inb4 "psykers aren't fluffy of the Death Guard!"
Morturg is a psyker
Typhon is a psyker
Even Mortarion himself has used sorcery
The only non-psyker DG character with rules are Rask (killed by Morturg mid HH1) and Garro (whom is now a Knight Errant and never had DG rules to begin with).

Hell, the only 40k DG I know the name of is a fookin sorcerer :^)

>>51482992

the DG's defining trait isn't hating sorcerers, its being gigantic fucking hypocrites.

>>51482992
>I think FW already said rad grenades don't stack with each other.

Well, you better find that quote, because I can't find it in the FAQ, in the books or anywhere.

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62KB, 1227x395px

>>51483032
Wrong, anon.
That's Mortarion's, not the DG's, and even then only tangentially.
Angron AND his WE for example also ostracized their own psykers, whom were still War Hounds, but unlike the DG's they didn't surive.
Meanwhile Typhon, like Sevatar, supressed his talent after witnessing Mortarion's witchspite and pursued a command role instead, and Morturg, whom was already a junior librarian, was sent to Destroyer duty.

So they were the hated, not the haters. That was Mortarion.

But his flaw wasn't being hypocrite. Rather, it was being so unlikeable that his only friends were Curze and the Warmaster himself. No one could school him on the details of psyker power and the difference from outright sorcery, because he allowed no one and drove away those who knew more than him on the subject, namely Malcador, Magnus and the Emperor.

That led him to the worst of paths: worse than being outright wrong is to wrongly assume you're right. So he tried to endure that which, by definition, cannot be endured. Tried to learn that which cannot be understood. Tried to control that which cannot be even bargained with. He thought himself pure when the only thing he'd ever known was contamination, himself being born from warp power, his flesh forged by a psychic being, stolen by chaos powers, stranded on a witch-swamp and adopted by a necromancer.

And yet he thought himself pure, because that had been all he knew and he rejected it without knowing it had been his nature from the very beginning, and destined to be until after the end of times.

And so, knowing nothing better, he was doomed.

Because in his heart, he genuinely believed himself to be a mere Barbaran farmer.

>>51483043
>because I can't find it in the FAQ, in the books or anywhere.
Same. I'll try to get that e-mail 4U.
Or several of them, in the best of scenarios.