/CofD/ &/wodg/ Chronicles of Darkness and World of Darkness

>>51367034
No. The kind of horror in CofD/WoD to me seems far too interested in mankind to be Lovecraftian.

>Mage Supremacy

>>51367034

CofD in a human-centric universe, one where souls exist and are a uniquely human trait that commands the interest of the cosmos, where belief shapes reality and creates things and all sorts of other nonsense. Lovecraft's malevolent indifference and a world with animist spirits, the potential to Ascend, and an Astral Plane are mutually exclusive.

Granted, you can get a lot of mileage out of stressing the alien horror and immense scope of, say, an Idigam, but that's not the same as "mankind is an accident on a speck in some not-even-that-interesting corner of a minor galaxy in a cruel universe" that our good pal Howie wrote.

Anyone have Night Horrors: Conquering Heroes?

>>51367212
I hope not.

>>51367034

Mage is probably the closest to traditional Lovecraftian cosmic horror, but even then CofD/WoD is firmly in Humanist Horror.

>>51367255
I would argue Demon or Mummy fall under than much better. The God-Machine and Judges of Duat stick closer to a Lovecratian sensibilities while the Exarchs are rooted heavily in Gnosticism

>>51367362
I would argue that you're wrong on that, Anon.

The Abyss has a healthy dose of Lovecraft.

>>51367405
Sure, but the rest of Mage is so humanistic that it pushes away from that.
Mummy is the most Lovecraftian game in the setting, really. Don't look at the tentacles, look at the themes.

>>51367601

It's a bit more Clark Ashton Smith than pure Lovecraft, but your point stands.

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>>51367101
>>51367255
>>51367405
Intruders - Encounters with the Abyss covers this pretty thoroughly.

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>>51367113

Is this thread going to turn into just another mage supremacist movement?

>>51367639
The more you talk about it, the more likely it is that it will.

>>51367623
Yeah. They worked a lot together.

But if one manages to look beyond the ideas that Derleth focused on in Lovecraft's Mythos, one really ends up closest to Mummy.

Though Mage is obviously inspired by Lovecraft, the themes are different.
I mean, the Temenos is basically a cross between Jung's collective unconscious and Lovecrafts dreamworld.

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IGNORE THE MAGEFAGS

>>51367710
I think it's better to say "ignore the shitposters", because that would include both the Mage Supremacy idiots, and people who whine about it.

I want to play in a Vampire the Requiem or Changeling the Lost game so hard I bought hard copies of both books despite not having anyone to play with. I'm trying to register on the Onyx Path forums to see about finding an online group but for some reason it won't let me. Anyone here running either one of these lines looking for a new player?

>>51367730
You sound like a closet magefag

Isn't that the High Speech rune for "vampire lawn chair?"

>>51367113
>>51367639
>>51367710
We're having a nice discussion about lovecraft and WoD stop bringing up mage supremacy and it will stop happening.

>>51367601
Doesn't Mummy literally have a set of utterances that basically just make you a Black Pharaoh expy?

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>>51367774
Yes

>>51367784
>Doesn't Mummy literally have a set of utterances that basically just make you a Black Pharaoh expy?

Yeah. Pretty much. And Sybaris is a perfect example of "humans losing their minds because they see something they aren't equipped to handle."
It has a pantheon of incomprehensible, and utterly inhuman gods who see humanity as nothing but tools.
Also, Lovecraft loved digging into the weirdness of the middle east.
Imprisoned with the Pharaohs is one of the best Mummy-inspiration stories I know.

There is also one short story about an explorer who crawls through a city built by pre-human lizard-people somewhere in Rub al'Khali. Though that one is probably more Mage. Despite the city being Irem...

>>51367784

There's an Utterance that lets you turn into an unholy meat Voltron that has you summon totally-not-Nyarlathotep as an incidental side effect, and then an Ochre-Masked King got mentioned in a web supplement.

Far more interesting are the black angels who orbit dead stars and eat Sekhem, rather than referential silliness.

>>51367845

Brilliant

So where do I start with Mummy? I like it and its themes well enough but how exactly do I run a group game made up of actual Mummies as opposed to one Mummy and his merry band of mortal meat shields?

>>51367861
>Far more interesting are the black angels who orbit dead stars and eat Sekhem, rather than referential silliness.

Is that...the Judges?

>>51367947

Easy answer: set it during a Sothic Turn, where everyone wakes up at the same time with no clear goal and lots of phenomenal cosmic power coursing through their dusty veins. If you need a little bit more guidance than that, I'm big on the easy excuse of a shared Cult; something goes wrong, the puny mortals get together and awaken their pantheon of unholy protectors, rather than everyone having their own Cults. Remember that judicious flashbacks are your friends and that you can bullshit almost everything because starting Memory means the player characters don't know any better,

>>51367951

The Black Huriyah, in the Deceived book.

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>>51367774

Let's talk about Changeling the lost!
What kind of stuff is happening in your CTL game? What are you looking forward too in 2E

>>51368054
>What kind of stuff is happening in your CTL game?
Someone got turned into a chair.
Not by a Mage, by a normal, mundane serial killer.

>>51368054
>What are you looking forward too in 2E
2E dumped all the fun stuff of 1E and changed things around.

If it's not broke don't fix it.

If I ever play CtL again (my favorite 1e line), it won't be 2e.

>>51368004
Thanks for the advice, I'm currently running a nascent Mage chronicle but i'll probably run a Mummy campaign as soon as I get done with that. Any general advice, pitfalls I should avoid or resources that I should be aware of, and which supplements do you recommend reading first?

>>51368004
Mummy is an interesting game. I really don't like the mechanics, and I don't like how it plays. But I *love* the stories the game tells. It expands on the setting in such wonderful ways.

>>51368134
Even in terms of the wider universe it is awesome. It gives us a brief glimpse of what kind of horrors lurk in the lower depths, horrors that even give the abyss pause.

>>51368104
But 2e's not out yet, is it? Do the released WIP rules look that bad?

>>51368167

Don't listen to that anon, 2e looks like a massive improvement. The naysayers complain about one-true-wayism, but I think it's smart to drill down and focus on the best parts of the game as it was. All of the complaints I've seen are from folks who are just afraid of change.

Look for yourself: http://theonyxpath.com/changeling-the-lost-tinkering-and-toying/

>>51368167
They changed how you get Seemings. Some people are REALLY angry about that.

>>51368108

Make heavy use of flashbacks: it's silly to run a game about immortals and then only focus on the present. I'm big on at least one scene in the past but ideally a full session or even mini plot arc of them whenever Memory goes up. Be patient with the terminology, as it's easy to lose people in the ocean of Ba and Sheut and Sekhem and Temakh and Uter and other such nonsense. Remember that death is not a huge setback for the Arisen, player characters and baddies alike; they can usually come back after a scene or two.

Book of the Deceived is the most fun to read, but I'd probably say Sothis Ascends is the most useful.

>>51368134

Here's hoping an eventual 2e will be easier to get folks into and have me writing on it.

>>51368223
Dude, don't even. You're the one that bitches for hours and hours about how your way is the right way and all the people left behind by the changes are wrong.

>>51368230
I see that. So instead of "who took you" it's "how did you escape?" I can understand why people might be upset.

Is the Mummy DC book any good?

>>51368284

None of which contradicts what I just said there: 2e is focusing on the best parts of 1e, and I think that's the right decision on the David's part.

You're more than welcome to use the 2e mechanics and still do whatever you were doing in 1e.

>>51368294
>I see that. So instead of "who took you" it's "how did you escape?" I can understand why people might be upset.

Yes. And because now you can be any kith with any seeming, the game is unplayable.

>>51368316

It's pretty okay, I wasn't in love with it. I feel like a Mummy setting book should be somewhere suitably ancient, so DC and Rio still feel like weird picks.

>>51368330
What? In what way does it become unplayable?

SO!
I found a copy of the Vampire: Undeath core rulebook.

Holy shit this is comedy GOLD.

>>51368274
>Here's hoping an eventual 2e will be easier to get folks into and have me writing on it.

There are a few core problems that will keep me from ever playing it:
1) Limited pool of character archetypes. (You have to be from the Nameless Empire)
2) Limited time of activity. (Sure, it can last years, but you can never build for anything on a large scale. Everything fades between times of wakefulness.)
3) I really dislike the idea of getting weaker. It punishes players for staying with the character, rather than reward them.
4) Thousands of years old, yet still a starting character.

I recall having had 7 reasons that I don't like Mummy, but I only remember four now.

>>51368355
I have no idea, I like the more customisation it gives! You'll have to ask >>51368104 here.

>>51368294
Contrary to the other assholes, the real issue is that the central theme of "beautiful madness," which caused a lot of people to fall in love with the line, has been removed in order to double-down on the "trauma survivor with PTSD" angle.

So while people like >>51368326 are thrilled that they get to focus on the only aspect of the game they ever cared about, those of us that enjoyed the whimsy and dark storybook nature of Changeling are screwed.

>>51368456
What? Have you seen how much the Hedge has been expanded on, even in just the previews?

The expansion of the storybook feel is why I LIKE 2e.

>>51368406
>1) Limited pool of character archetypes. (You have to be from the Nameless Empire)

Irem was 5000 years ago. You've had a good long while to build up an archetype for yourself, which can be literally anything from history. I've got Deceived who've been kung fu masters in southern China for a thousand years!

>2) Limited time of activity. (Sure, it can last years, but you can never build for anything on a large scale. Everything fades between times of wakefulness.)

People always say this, but how often has a chronicle ever spanned multiple in-game years? There's also nothing stopping you from getting woken up again. One of the chronicles on the forums had a Prologue set in the 1960s that established facts about the 2012 chronicle proper, and there's nothing stopping you from doing the same.

>3) I really dislike the idea of getting weaker. It punishes players for staying with the character, rather than reward them.

Personal preference, but Mummy set out from day one to invert tropes: it had to, as the eighth gameline. Most games don't have you as immortal or running a giant organization, either. You can also do scummy things to raise Sekhem, or always just start a new Descent.

>4) Thousands of years old, yet still a starting character.

Subservient international cult and godlike powers aren't enough for you?

>>51368456
In what way? All I see are rules revisions with the barest hints of fluff applied.

>>51368506
It's lost a lot of the "beautiful" in favor of the "madness." CtL 1e had a very bittersweet feel to pretty much all of it. Now it's just bitter.

>>51368406

>I really dislike the idea of getting weaker. It punishes players for staying with the character, rather than reward them.

I really don't see a traditional power rise working with Mummy without serious changes to its themes and setting. I suppose there could be a compromise in having Sekhem rise to 10 slowly but automatically, a plateau at 10, and then tapering off back to 0 and slumber.

As for being a starting character, Mummy 1e does try to address this by granting free bonus XP. The 1e XP system makes this actually pretty miniscule, but an equivalent system in 2e might actually work really well, since 10 Experiences suddenly matters much, much more.

>>51368456

>beautiful madness

I know I sound like a broken record whenever this comes up, but this always felt more like a slick marketing phrase than anything with presence in CtL 1e. Then again, I've never been able to click with the game despite liking a whole lot of it, and 2e looks like it won't click with me either.

>>51367845

Mages are really good at Clash of Wills. Once you get turned into a lawn chair you're fucked for good.

>>51368621

You should play Mage, my good Anon! Best 2e conversion yet! Out of all the gamelines it goes the deepest when it comes to the dark recesses of the human psyche.

>>51368555

I love the power falling in Mummy because it works so well as an inverse to rising Memory; you're basically a demigod when you first wake up, but are little more than a meat robot who wants to kill intruders, but by the time you can remember what the fuck you wanted to do and who you are you're little more than a mortal with some fancy tricks. It's really solid tragedy, compounded by the fact that Memory gains aren't permanent.

>>51368686
If you're a powerful Mage, dealing with a less powerful Supernatural, sure.

However even then you've still got to get past their Withstand, put the duration long enough to keep them there, use probably 2+ reach fur advanced duration and sensory range.

And then you've got to get to Adept proficiency with 2+ Arcana.
And even then, the entire spell is just for show, there are MUCH easier ways to hard-counter another splat.

Why then? Because it's fucking hilarious if you can pull it off.

Like using Forces 4 to transform heat into kinetic energy, turning something into an exploding frozen statue.

>>51367272

>Nowhere in the rules does it say that anything can be a Yantra if it's symbolic.
>In a game about symbolism symbols mean nothing
k

>>51368815
>What are Praxis
>What are Rotes
>What are Yantras
You're making it sound far more difficult than it is. And it isn't that difficult.
>If you're a powerful Mage, dealing with a less powerful Supernatural, sure.
You have to remember that power has nothing to do with it after a certain point. High Gnosis Mages can eventually bypass Withstand relatively easily. Indeed, this was something that Dave mentioned on the topic of "white room battles". A High Gnosis Mage is going to curbstomp an equivalent High BP Vampire on a regular basis. Or at least take the majority of the odds in their favor.

>>51368933
Sorry that you couldn't find any rules to support your idiotic house rule, anon, but that doesn't make it part of the rules.

>>51369006
Yeah but a high gnosis mage can't do shit to an equivalently leveled demon.

>>51369115
I disagree. A prepared Mage is capable of going toe-to-toe with a Loud Demon. But the key word is "prepared". I can agree otherwise.

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Is he an Arcanthus?

And the mage circle jerk begins

>>51369156
More than likely. The Watchtowers have a particular bias towards certain individuals/personalities. He looks right up the Acanthus alley, or a possible Mastigos if I had to make a second guess.

>>51369143
What does 'prepared' constitute? How much forewarning do they need?

>>51368510
>Irem was 5000 years ago. You've had a good long while to build up an archetype for yourself, which can be literally anything from history. I've got Deceived who've been kung fu masters in southern China for a thousand years!

>People always say this, but how often has a chronicle ever spanned multiple in-game years? There's also nothing stopping you from getting woken up again. One of the chronicles on the forums had a Prologue set in the 1960s that established facts about the 2012 chronicle proper, and there's nothing stopping you from doing the same.

Um.. Four out of the last six have lasted more than 10 years.
I suppose I'm just one for long games.

>Personal preference, but Mummy set out from day one to invert tropes: it had to, as the eighth gameline. Most games don't have you as immortal or running a giant organization, either. You can also do scummy things to raise Sekhem, or always just start a new Descent.

Yeah. I know. But it feels as if one is punished for playing it more than a few weeks at the time.
I know it isn't so, but it's hard to shake that feeling.

>Subservient international cult and godlike powers aren't enough for you?
The cult eats up merit dots. And you still will be completely inept in one of the three skill areas.

>>51369156
There is no fucking R in Acanthus.

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>>51369099

>Each mage maintains at least a handful of magical tools, mundane items that have symbolic link to specific kinds of magic.

Hey I'm not the one stifling creativity over a 1(one), read one, as in the numeral number one die bonus. not my problem you can't RAI and have no creativity

>>51369264
The extra R stands for "really lucky"

>>51369241
>>51368510
Damn it. Failed to expand on my main point. I'm an idiot at times.

>Irem was 5000 years ago. You've had a good long while to build up an archetype for yourself, which can be literally anything from history. I've got Deceived who've been kung fu masters in southern China for a thousand years!
When you make a Mummy, you have to make a character whose core concept is "Mummy who does X".
The fact that they are Iremites is an inherent part of the concept. Practically all non-Deceived will have at most a dozen years of active time since the Rite was performed.
And most of THAT time they have been amnesiac monsters. Of course Irem is the important part of their personality.

Unless of course they are of the villain splat.

>>51369264
>tfw the archaic plurals from To The Strongest will never be default even though they sound better
>DaveB shot you down for mentioning it

I just really like saying Acanthoi...

>>51369265
Allowing anything symbolic to count as Yantra makes the Shadow Name merit, Legacy Tools, and the Techne merit all worthless.

Not to mention that this is one of the most basic lessons in logic. All Yantra have symbolic connections, but not all symbols are Yantra.

All A = B, but not all B = A.

This isn't RAW or RAI.

It's just your gods-awful house rule.

>>51369314
Running a game in my native tongue. Practically have to use the Greek plurals, because my native tongue fucks up BADLY when trying to nativise it.

>>51369314
Speaking of Awakening history.
Does anyone have good Latin translations of the Order names?

>>51369344
What do you speak anon?

>>51369312

The Arisen barely remember Irem until high Memory. The artificial personalities they build up for themselves to make up for that are based more on Guild philosophy than Iremite history, and if "scholar, priest, spy, merchant, and builder" are just as broad if not moreso than the clans in Requiem.

>>51369368
And those Guilds are at the core of their Irem personalities.
Which is exactly what I'm talking about.

With low Memory, they are just stereotypes of their Guild memberships. All formed in Irem.
With high Memory, they realize anything since Irem is fleeting.

That is the ONLY relevant point of anchoring.

>>51369362
Does it matter? Swedish.

>>51369196

It really depends on the Mage. They're ridiculously good at preparing though. They're effectively invincible if they know you inside-and-out and have the right Arcana.

Best way to deal with a Mage is to ambush them.

>>51369388
>With low Memory, they are just stereotypes of their Guild memberships. All formed in Irem.

I played my Arisen at low memory as basically unable to keep anything in his past straight but very different than the Maa-Kep standard since he still recalled jumbled past events to inform his present personality. You can do something different than 'quiet, polite Maa-Kep' and 'Arrogant Mesen-Nebu' even at memory 3.

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>>51369410
Why not seduce them? They won't kill you if you give them the knot.

My problem with Mummy characters is that all are the same.
Not the Irem shit. But all are guardians of old relics, woken by cults in time of need, with no real agency, but struggling to get some.

Every single Mummy character will be like that.
And that's boring.

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>>51369321
>you can't cast with multiple yantras
You mad blacks can dunk over your lily white ass?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=adsqqQybvTE

>Literal symbol of the messenger
>can't use in travel magic
if you just want to play order of hermetic in nwod, go ahead, but don't pretend there is no other way to get alternative yantras to work for you

>>51369388

You can just as easily play a Su-Menent who thinks he's a risen saint akin to Lazarus as one who preaches Iremite orthodoxy. That's the whole point of low Memory; your character can be ten sorts of confused, doubly so with the possibility of being Twice Risen.

If you return from the dead on a bloody Aztec pyramid in a native body surrounded by people chanting in Nahuatl and you don't really remember anything, you bet your undead boots you're gonna think you're their murder god and not an amnesiac proto-Egyptian monstrosity.

>>51369441

WEREFAGS GET OUT

>>51369508
>If you return from the dead on a bloody Aztec pyramid in a native body surrounded by people chanting in Nahuatl and you don't really remember anything, you bet your undead boots you're gonna think you're their murder god and not an amnesiac proto-Egyptian monstrosity.

But any non-Middle-Eastern Mummy is going to be frowned upon like the worst kind of Snowflake, and you know it.

>>51369490
This is a perfect example of Mage shitposting. Aggressive, and with just enough of an understanding of Mage to get it completely wrong, and making it look idiotic to everyone,

>>51369543
>But any non-Middle-Eastern Mummy is going to be frowned upon like the worst kind of Snowflake, and you know it.
>explicitly called out and mentioned in the core rulebook

If you say "I want my Arisen to be a white guy," no shit people are going to be miffed. But if you actually have an interesting backstory in mind - original body destroyed in the sack of Constantinople and replaced with a loyal Templar, maybe - any sensible ST would allow it.

>>51369543

The books have enough of those kinds of character back stories to the point where it's kind of common. I've run Mummy for a while, and I wouldn't consider that kind of stuff as being a "Special Snowflake".

>>51369584
So your saying Mummy is anti diversity?

>>51369596

??????

The game assumes most characters are North African or Middle Eastern in origin, but has mechanics in place to allow you to swap that body out if yours has been destroyed at any point in five thousand years of being an undead monstrosity.

>>51369584
>If you say "I want my Arisen to be a white guy," no shit people are going to be miffed. But if you actually have an interesting backstory in mind - original body destroyed in the sack of Constantinople and replaced with a loyal Templar, maybe - any sensible ST would allow it.

But is it really any different?
Mummy characters are supposed to be Middle-easteners, with a tiny minority having grabbed new bodies.
Anyone who wants to play a member of that tiny minority to be different from the rest is per definition going for a snowflake character.

>>51369596
Not really. It's just based in a specific north-African culture.
It's not any less anti-diversity than a game set in 17th century Japan, or 8th century Norway.

>>51369596
Are you retarded?

>>51369625
It's not a 5000 year old character. It's a less than 20 year old character, with titanic leaps between hen he is active.
The time spent sleeping is irrelevant to character growth.

>>51369629

The option is there in the core rulebook and adds an interesting wrinkle in that this body both likely confuses their Memory and makes Apotheosis harder.

>>51369647
>20 year old

Your character has only been woken up sixteen times in fifty centuries? That means her Cult almost never wakes her up and her Tomb is almost never breached, neither of which make for very good storytelling.

I'm beginning to get the feeling I'll be able to play C20 before CTL2E

>>51369647
>, with titanic leaps between hen he is active.
I think most mummies are up at least a few times a decade assuming they don't have weird ass rules for the cult to wake them up. Most are probably still pretty old but not 6000 years awake old.

>>51369629

It's established as a potential event over the several millenia the characters have been alive. Just because it happened to a small group of Mummy NPCs doesn't mean playing a transplanted Mummy comes off as being a special snowflake.

Being an Arisen whose buddy buddy with a Decieved and their Judge is totally cool with it for reasons and that's why they know True Name Utterances? That's what being a Special Snowflake in Mummy would actually be like, not playing someone like Sledge.

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>>51369441

Disgusting dogs are also not safe from Masters one-shotting them with an Avada Kedavra Unmaking spell. Even with their knots.

>>51369740
What the penalty to casting when taking a werewolf's knoted dick?

>>51369692
>The option is there in the core rulebook and adds an interesting wrinkle in that this body both likely confuses their Memory and makes Apotheosis harder.
The only interesting part is that it allows people who are icked by middle-easteners to play the game.

>Your character has only been woken up sixteen times in fifty centuries? That means her Cult almost never wakes her up and her Tomb is almost never breached, neither of which make for very good storytelling.
Tomb breached, Mummy wakes, smushes intruder, go back to sleep.
Lasts a few weeks at most. Mummy is going to be a mostly mindless monster for most of it. That's not really a character.

Cult wants the Mummy to judge something. He is waked, passes judgement, goes back to sleep. Also very fast.
And there have only been four Sothic Turns since the Rite of Return. So yeah. They won't really have had much chance to get a personality.

>>51369699
A few times per DECADE!? The book clearly states that waking the mummy is a BIG DEAL, and in the opening fiction, it's mentioned as being done maybe once a generation.

>>51369779
None. They removed the casting while grappled penalties.

>>51369799
>A few times per DECADE!? The book clearly states that waking the mummy is a BIG DEAL, and in the opening fiction, it's mentioned as being done maybe once a generation.
I've always found that kind of stupid since there's always tons of shit that needs to be done which mortals are basically incapable of doing. Finding relics, killing amkhata, etc.

The Arisen in that opening fiction was Sefet-Qam who is kind of in exile at that time after being displaced as the guildmaster of Europe. In fact a bunch of Maa-Kep have annual awakenings to attend a conference.

>>51369848
>I've always found that kind of stupid since there's always tons of shit that needs to be done which mortals are basically incapable of doing. Finding relics, killing amkhata, etc.

I thought that finding relics was what the cults was mostly about.

>>51369799
>Lasts a few weeks at most.

The minimum length of a Descent is over a year long. I'm so tired of explaining this.

>Mummy is going to be a mostly mindless monster for most of it.

What are you talking about? You go up to Memory 3 after one scene.

>>51369882
>The minimum length of a Descent is over a year long. I'm so tired of explaining this.
The minimum if one has something to do, yes.

>>51369817
Why do you lie Anon?

>>51369779

Casting During a Grapple
Mages can cast spells in a single turn without making any
outward sign. A mage in a grapple (whether he initiated it or
not) can cast a spell whether he wins the grapple check for the
turn or not, but suffers a –3 penalty to the spellcasting roll if he
lost. Mages in a grapple cannot employ any Yantras involving
movement, but if the grapple was initiated part-way through
casting a spell, any Yantras the caster has already spent turns
incorporating into the spell have their full effect.

>>51369799

Waking the Mummy is a Big Deal no matter what, since you need a Vessel of some kind, but it's certainly more than once per generation for most Cults, especially since they're often needed for major ceremonies.

>>51369870

Cults can certainly help with that, but they're really there to provide infrastructure, safety, and leverage.

>>51367845
How to beat a Mage as a Vampire in 3 easy steps.

1) When you encounter them, don't fight them or threaten them. In fact, be friendly and helpful.
2) Mix vitae into all their food.
3) Also feed them vitae while they're sleeping.

Unless you have the merit Unbondable, you're fucked.

>>51369956
Vitae fades as soon as it leaves the body. You have to feed them directly.
How the fuck are you going to force someone to drink your blood stealthily?

>>51369897
No, minimum even if you finish your first purpose when you get up. There's no official rules but I think you can end descents early if you're a 'wake up, do the job, sleep in death' kind of Arisen, but even without stalling any descent check your time up is a long fucking time.

>>51369956

Mages can sever blood-bonds and turn Ghouls back into normal boring humans.

>the more you know

>>51369940
>Waking the Mummy is a Big Deal no matter what, since you need a Vessel of some kind, but it's certainly more than once per generation for most Cults, especially since they're often needed for major ceremonies.

There is literally a sidebar about how mummies should kill cultists who raise them too often.

>>51370021
>Mages can sever blood-bonds and turn Ghouls back into normal boring humans.
only some mages

>>51369956
nono Anon. Obf, Vigor, Grapple, bite, Suck. Celerity for retries

Mummy may suck, but it's still the best CofD game, because it actually has lore, instead of just "lol make up ur own shit".

>>51370028
>There is literally a sidebar about how mummies should kill cultists who raise them too often.
Not specifically too often, its for trivial reasons.

So, how would YOU roleplay a friendly vampire? As in, high Humanity and/or really nice to everyone?

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>>51369897

Please read the book.

>When an Arisen fulfills his first purpose, he immediately loses one dot of Sekhem and succeeds at all subsequent scheduled Descent rolls until he dies,

Assuming you wake up and immediately resolve your purpose, you then have 12 hours + 1 day + 2 days + 5 days + 10 days + 20 days + 40 days + 60 days + 100 days + 160 days = 398.5 days of Descent ahead of you.

The literal minimum amount of time for a Descent is over a year long, and considering most Arisen don't wake up and instantly solve their purpose, it'll likely go longer than that.

>>51370028

For frivolous purposes, yes. There's still going to be enough times of crisis or of major Cult upheaval to justify raising a Mummy more than once a generation, because the game goes for a dark but pulpy tone.

>>51370036
>Only some Mages
Not really no

>>51368223
>I think it's smart to drill down and focus on the best parts of the game as it was
but the durance was the worst part of the game and the line grew stronger when they focused less on how your keeper shoved rebar up your ass erryday

>>51370046

Until you realize that Mages have a superior version of Celerity.

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>>51370071
Put on a sweater and a smile and use the Blush of Life. Majesty makes you not want to disappoint him. He politely asks you for some blood and you're happy to oblige.

>>51370105
You can't make a snowflake without abject suffering though. All those fancy "I'm a tortured perfect being who everyone loves" characters that plague games don't work now.

>>51370081

I think they're talking about the auto-rising when someone breaks into your Tomb, and how Sekhem decreases at a much faster rate than a normal Descent. That said, even that's probably still long enough to return to Memory 3 and get some things done before going back to Duat.

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>>51369981
>Vitae fades as soon as it leaves the body.

That does not track to existing vampire lore that I'm aware of; pic related from the VtM Revised rulebook. I don't care about VtR.

Point being that Hardestadt's plan here wouldn't work if vitae faded when it left the body.

Also there's still getting the mage while he's asleep. Mages are mortal, they still need to do that. Hell, while asleep they can't defend against the Kiss. Mortals don't get to resist that unless their Wills are exceptionally strong (Willpower 9+), and even they eventually succumb (V20 pg. 269).

>>51370151

>Also there's still getting the mage while he's asleep

Not all Mages need to sleep. Only a dumb Mage is going to be defenseless during resting periods. It's not easy to ambush one. People keep forgetting this.

>>51370119
Which is only useful if they know they need to activate it.

White room conditions presume a mage gets to prepare. Vampires, however, are ambush predators. Why would a vampire give a mage a chance to prepare? Most likely they won't even realize they're attacking a mage, and the mage will never get a chance to demonstrate their power as they succumb to the Kiss.

>>51370081
Sure. As long as you go by the longes possible definition, as they do there.
A scene is "one thing happens".
A stressful day could easily encompass all six initial scenes.
A chapter is a session, which, again, if stressful could be just a day.
Which could cut those 70 days down to less than a week.

Hell, the core book even says that a story could be finished in a single session. By that point we are down to Sekhem 3.

>>51370202

That is one hell of a stretch, anon, and I think you know that.

>>51370190
>Not all Mages need to sleep.

The vast majority of mages need to. They also need to eat, or in other ways interact with the mortal world. They have normal desires like wanting to go to a bar to hang out. Or a library if they're fucking nerds, which they probably are, which means additionally falling victim to Presence, or even just a vampire's superior social skills at seduction.

>>51370218
Ok. Fine.
When was the last time you had a 12 hour scene?

>>51369779
If you take the right Merit you get a bonus, actually.

>>51370202

That all depends on how long a scene takes. Yes, it's "one thing happens" but there could still be quite a bit of time between two scenes, since a scene is not an exact measurement of time. That's why both scenes and actual time intervals are on the chart, the idea is that you pick what's more dramatic or more fitting for the pace of the Descent.

>>51370250
The book suggests using the timer when you're doing shit like travelling or otherwise in big narrative time gaps so that muddies it again.

>>51370151
>Also there's still getting the mage while he's asleep
That's why mages bind guardian spirits/ghosts to their sanctums, and put up a shit ton of wards and bans that either deny access to a bunch of stuff or set off a magic alarm that lets them know their wards have been crossed and would rouse them from sleep. Alternatively they can hide their sanctums with Mind magic or illusions, or set up a decoy house that they use as a cover while they portal to their real sanctum from inside, which could literally be anywhere on the planet. I'm talking in terns of Awakening but it goes for Ascension too.

>>51370273
What kind of fucking merit are you talking about that lets you get bonuses while getting raped to death by a werewolf?

>>51370197

You clearly don't know how Mages fight.
Mages know more about ambush than any Vampire, period. They're backstabbing wizards who know your weak points better than yourself. It's also nearly impossible to ambush one. Trying to surprise an Acanthus? Good luck. And if you do? It was just as planned.

>>51370241

They can also live out in the sun. A far greater benefit over a lesser advantage you seem to think means anything at all. You're assuming Mages are stupid. A typical mistake a Vampire makes.

>>51370241
>Mages need to do shit
>this leaves them open to vampires
Not if they do their shit during the day.

>>51370327
Bedoodoo
Acanthus come out with your hands up! This is the build diversity police, we've got the place surrounded!

>>51370327
I'm pretty sure you've never even played Mage.

>>51370349
The problem here is that one build requires so little to make it so much better than literally everything else in the setting.
Why would you ever play anything that ISN'T an Arcanethus?

>>51370298
>I'm talking in terms of Awakening but it goes for Ascension too.
Ascension Mages have lower valleys and higher peaks compared to Awakening Mages.

>>51370377
Mindbreak fetish, but I'm not the one under arrest here faerieboy

>>51370364

How mature.

Instead of all this idiotic Mage Supremacy and Mummy hate shitposting, could I ask for anyone to help me with this: >>51369359?

I'm not good with Latin, so... What would be good translations of the Order names?

>>51370197
Most Mages prepare for danger as part of their morning ritual. For example, a Mage could suspend Acceleration (Mage Celerity) with the trigger condition "I'm being attacked", meaning it would be stored in their pattern and activate as soon as the Vampire strikes. The Vampire would then have to kill them in one blow. Unlikely, seeing as most Mages put up a lasting Mage Armor as part of their morning ritual.

>>51370327
I love how magefags keep trampling Obfuscate and clash of wills rules in their mad dash for misguided supremacy.

>>51370348
Huddled away behind locked doors, praying for daylight. And that is how mages forfeited sleepers to the terrors in the night. Our heros ladies and gentlemen

>>51370388

>Sleeper police force storms the house of an Acanthus
>Oh wait! It never actually happened because Time magic is a thing

>>51370427
>Sleeper police force
>implying I'm not a bene elohim archangel taking advantage of paradox free arcane influences and completely broke Alter Spirit minmaxing

>>51370377
>Why would you ever play anything that ISN'T an Arcanethus?
For roleplaying purposes? For fun? I'm not denying that Acanthus is the most powerful path when it comes to mechanics, but I have way more fun playing all the other paths.

>>51370421
>I love how magefags keep trampling Obfuscate and clash of wills rules in their mad dash for misguided supremacy.
Most of the time Mage Supremacy is just bullshit, but with the clashing against Obfuscate, they do have a point. Mage Sight is a fantastic counter against practically any kind of concealing power.

>Huddled away behind locked doors, praying for daylight. And that is how mages forfeited sleepers to the terrors in the night. Our heros ladies and gentlemen
Oh come on. Mages aren't supposed to be heroes any more than vampires are.
If you've ever read the Mysterium view on Sleepers, they think it's just fair that the vampires weed the sleepers out. Vampires don't destroy magic, and neither do ghouls. Sleepers do, however, so it's better that the Vampires ghoul a bunch. Less paradox that way.

>>51370377

Because Obrimos are more fun aesthetically?

>>51370468
If you have a good group, I suppose that matters. But for most of us, you really must stay competitive with the rest of the players to survive. And that only really leaves Acanthus.

>>51370421

>misguided mage supremacy

Sorry. Splat balance is a myth outside of a single game-line. Even the writers acknowledge this. Deal with it.

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>>51370469
>being a muggle

>>51370417
My knowledge of Latin extends only to the level that I can fully appreciate that one scene in Life of Brian where the centurion corrects the grammar of Brian's anti-Roman graffiti

So I can't really help you

>>51370125
>Mr. Rogers as a daeva.
Today on "things I didn't know I wanted"

>>51370475
I won't deny that the Raging Ones are cool as fuck, but it's really no fun being objectively worse than the other guys at the table. The extreme internal imbalance between the Mage Paths kinda forces either everyone, or noone to use the Fate arcanum.

>>51370492
Yeah. That's kinda my point.

>>51370498
Pretty much the same here.
Mysterium is easy to translate, at least.

>>51370421
Careful with all that salt, anon. No vampire will want to drink your blood if your blood pressure is too high.

>>51370406
>my superhero is the best; whatever yours can do, my can do better because I say so and don't have the mental capacity to consider context and consequences

>>51369359
>>51370417

>Does anyone have good Latin translations of the Order names?

The Adamantine Arrow
The Ungula Draconis: Claws of the Dragon.

The Guardians of the Veil
The Visus Draconis: Eyes of the Dragon

The Mysterium
The Alae Draconis: Wings of the Dragon

The Silver Ladder
The Vox Draconis: Voice of the Dragon

>>51370562
>my mage is the best, whatever yours can do, mine can do better

Fixed that for you. It's also true. Keep crying. My Mage boner is rock hard.

>>51370486
Thyrsus are objectively the best. Spirits can mimic just about any other Arcana, and they can do it without risking Paradox.

>>51370579
No, I mean, from before they picked those up. Like in Rome, for instance.

>>51370421
This comment is fucking hilarious.

And not because the last ten threads have been going against it.

>>51370612
They don't have the extreme power of Acanthus though.
Boons and Hexes are amazingly strong.

>>51370469
>clashing against Obfuscate
You still got to roll to clash. Most magefags here ignore even that. Can we please start looking in the book. Most of these ridiculous arguments are settled easily enough

"Note, however, that Peripheral Mage Sight notices only active supernatural effects. Any supernatural attempt at concealment hides the effect from the mage, without a Clash of Wills or any other mechanical effect

Nor does Peripheral Mage Sight give any clues as to what just
happened — only that magic is afoot. If the mage doesn’t have
the Death Arcanum to use Active Mage Sight with, the ghost
will remain a nagging sensation of something out of place at
the edge of the mage’s perceptions

Entering active Mage Sight is a reflexive action when
only using Ruling Arcana, and an instant action otherwise.
Leaving it is always reflexive. If the Storyteller determines that
a mage’s Active Mage Sight could logically pierce a concealment
effect, use a Clash of Wills (see p. 117), pitting the observing
mage’s Gnosis + Arcanum against the defender’s dice pool for
the concealment power."

>>51370492

Seer dupe or Paternoster Tetrach?.

>>51367753

You have Discord?

>>51370469
>Mage Sight is a fantastic counter against practically any kind of concealing power.
You need Unveiling, not Mage Sight, unless you have specific Arcana that would be unaffected by Obfuscate. And given that there's several different versions of Obfuscate that each would affect different Arcana, good luck.

>>51370662
>several different versions of Obfuscate

Say what now?

>>51370662
Doesn't Active Mage sight give you Rote Action on stuff to see through concealment, or something like that?

>>51370655
Councilu piggu go homu

>>51370655
I think he is actually a result of a Silver Ladder push into the position, to remove the former Paternoster-puppet.
All done from their Cryptopoly the Jesuit Order, of course.

>>51370660
Yes, I do. Use it to play a D&D 5e game with some friends online already. You recruiting?

>>51370676
Basic obfuscate is a mental effect that causes you to ignore the target.

Cloak of Night is literal invisibility combined with the mental effect.

According to the book, Mind Sight would see basic level Obfuscate, but you'd probably need both Mind and Forces to see through Cloak of Night.

>>51370694
Active Mage Sight gives you a penalty to all rolls, actually. Everything unrelated to perceiving or using magic. Even mundane perception rolls. It only helps with supernatural concealment.

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How anyone can consider Vampires to be a threat to Mages is beyond me.

Especially since Dave has flat out said Mages are stronger. This isn't open for discussion.

>>51370562

Sorry you guys got stuck with the same crowd that ruined Exalted with paranoia combat paranoia and Solar wank.

>>51370759
It's just Vampirefags who can't handle vampires being one of the weaker splats.

>>51370745

Not per se but I am looking to find interested parties in case I do, or at the least piece together a nice wod group who can talk about the game more privately.

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>>51370746
>Active Mage Sight gives you a penalty to all rolls, actually. Everything unrelated to perceiving or using magic. Even mundane perception rolls. It only helps with supernatural concealment.

Not all rolls! Just those who are unrelated to doing, or perceiving mystical stuff. Looking through Obfuscate, for instance isn't penalized.

>>51370579
That has been retconned into being a rather recent thing. Middle ages or so.
By that point Latin names should be around.

Those are the "Shadow Names" of the orders, kinda.
The Orders should ALSO have Latin common names. Just as they have English common names. I mean, they are academics after all, right?

>>51370868
That's what I said.

>unrelated to perceiving or using magic.

was a direct quote.

>>51370868
Couldn't you use Sense Consciousness to know where a Vampire is if they aren't hiding using mental shenanigans?

>>51370902
Anon You know Anon has a reading disability be nice

>>51370915
Yes. Unveiling is better than Mage Sight. The book even says so.

>>51370902
Yeah, but as you phrased it, it seemed as if you included the clash of wills against the Obfuscate.
Interestingly, they seem to have removed the Rote Action. Good.

>>51370915
Easily! Or a Death equivalent.
Or even a Fate equivalent in "are there enemies nearby?"

>>51370922
Alternatively you could use Pierce Deception.

>>51370951
Nah. That one just sorts out "is this statement true? Y/N?"
Being hidden isn't being false. It's just not obvious.

>>51370951
which is also unveiling

>>51370951
>>51370967
Why do you lie?

Prime is the Arcanum of pure Truth, and no falsehood may
stand before it. By means of this spell, the subject sees illusions,
phantasms, and lies for what they are. The spell sees through
mundane falsehoods the subject perceives automatically; magical
illusion or deception automatically provokes a Clash of Wills.

>>51370967
>By means of this spell, the subject sees illusions,
phantasms, and lies for what they are. The spell sees through
mundane falsehoods the subject perceives automatically; magical
illusion or deception automatically provokes a Clash of Wills
So if a Vampire was using Obfuscate to hide, it would provoke a Clash of Wills.

>>51370759
Mages are stronger in a white room battle, with preparation, after they've already had plenty of years to become adept at magic, and provided the fight is 1v1 against their anticipated target and not, say, having to deal with a SWAT team crashing through their doors and windows simultaneously and opening fire with submachine guns, with the vampire strolling in to deal with the Mage after he's already been weakened. Or if the vampire wants to be more subtle, freezing the Mage's accounts and plastering his face on the CIA's Most Wanted lists. As has been stated before, vampires are SOCIAL monsters. They're better at manipulating mortals than anyone else, save maybe some aspects of the Technocracy.

Vampire powers are also more subtle. Presence, for example, is not something you get to even attempt to resist unless you actively (not passively) realize it's being used on you. The Blood Bond, as established upthread, can be conferred by indirectly imbibing vampire vitae. And if a vampire actually manages to sink his fangs into a Mage, then the Mage doesn't even get the option to resist the Kiss unless either a) their Willpower is 9+ or b) their attacker is Giovanni.

>>51371004
>>51370995

And the example was about a vampire who was hiding without using magic.

See:>>51370915

I know it'd work if they were using Obfuscate, but we are talking about just mundane hiding here.

>>51371020
And now we are jumping back and forth between oWoD and nWoD again.
We really need separate threads.

The post you are quoting is obviously nWoD, since it mentions Dave, but you are answering in oWoD.

>>51370838
give me your discord info then man, i'd be down for Requiem or Lost. Forsaken, even, if it came to it.

>>51371024
>And the example was about a vampire who was hiding without using magic.
When I said "without mental shenanigans" I meant using Obfuscate for real invisibility and such as opposed to just making people ignore you.

>>51371043
I always answer oWoD. I'm not terribly familiar with nWoD due to it being BOOOOORRRRRIIIINNNNGGGG.

>>51371043
>>51371020
I mean, he is obviously Mage Supremacy shitposting, but mixing editions doesn't help things in the slightest.

>>51371024
fairs fair

>>51371059
>When I said "without mental shenanigans" I meant using Obfuscate for real invisibility and such as opposed to just making people ignore you.

Eh. You can't do that. Obfuscate is purely a mental power.

>>51371043

Seperate threads don't end well, even if it means there's some confusion at times.

That said, once One World gets going, pretty much as soon ass VtM 5e and the WtA video game hit shelves, it'd probably be safe to split the threads since we'll end up with a lot of /v/ influx.

>>51371020
In nWoD Mages cannot be Mloodbound or Embraced, and any Mage worth his salt knows how to put up a mental shield or has an imbued item that does such for him.

>>51371059
Difference between cloak of night and unseen presence

>>51371020
>>51371061

oWoD Mages can become ludicrously more powerful than their CofD counterparts. I hope you realize this.

>>51371082
Not in CofD. Cloak of Night is the third dot power, and it's both mental and real invisibility:

With but a thought, the vampire slips from both sight and
mind. He doesn’t just fade into the background, he vanishes
entirely. He leaves no scent and makes no sound, though
his passing leaves incidental signs, like drifting smoke or
creaking floorboards. He can pass this part of this effect on
to others, even stealing people from the world with Touch
of Shadow.

>>51371061
>not familiar with nWoD
>but can make decisive judgments on it
I smell a bias.

>>51371103
>oWoD Mages can become ludicrously more powerful than their CofD counterparts.

Sure, but the vast majority don't, just as the vast majority of vampires never really amount to much. I'm not terribly interested in pitting antediluvians against archmages. I'm more interested in the interactions that are actually likely to happen between players in a crossover chronicle: a just-rolled-up vampire, mage, werewolf, etc., with the total experience gained during the course of the chronicle unlikely to exceed, say, 300 (which going by oWoD rules on when and how experience is gained would roughly translate out to maybe 75 sessions max).

>>51371154
no that's just the standard NEET nerd funk. But you are correct non the less

>>51371174
>antediluvians against archmages
>archmages win

>>51371154
I'll clarify, then: I did a complete read-through of Vampire: the Requiem, Mage: The Awakening, Werewolf: The Forsaken, and the World of Darkness core rulebook as they were first coming out between 2005-6, and found them all to be manifestly less interesting than their oWoD counterparts that they had replaced. Well, except Werewolf: the Apocalypse, as I've never actually done a complete read-through of that, but even from what I've picked up through osmosis and hints via other parts of the oWoD, it just seems more interesting.

>>51371258
It's not the Chronicles of Fagness without the random Thyrsus Anon

>>51371148
I'll be damned. You are right.
Interesting!

>>51371222
Yes, it's as if one book has trouble being as interesting as a line with more than ten years history!

I'm pretty certain if you were to dig into it again now, you'd find it a lot less dull.

>>51371222

The Big Three of nWoDwere pretty weak when they came out. Try the 2e corebooks or the more original lines.

>>51371258
Who is the artist anyway?

>>51371344
https://saucenao.com/search.php?db=999&dbmaski=32768&url=https://iqdb.org/thu/thu_619dfe0b.jpg

Are the vampire fags gone?

>>51371328
>Yes, it's as if one book has trouble being as interesting as a line with more than ten years history!

Flawed argument. The job of the VtR core rulebook was to sell me on the idea of ditching Masquerade and picking up Requiem instead, and that ending the Masquerade line in favor of Requiem was worth it. It didn't have to be the best thing I'd ever read, but it did have to present a world that was at least as compelling as that of Masquerade. It failed.

It's not that I haven't poked my head back into Requiem every now and then, but the adamant refusal to develop any kind of metaplot is what ruins it for me. I'm not asking for the convoluted mess that Masquerade was, but I'd at least like a sense of who rules what and where, the current status of the ongoing conflict between Carthian and Invictus and the location of the battle lines.

Also from a game design standpoint I'd also like an explanation as to what the point of Sects (Covenants, whatever) are in Requiem when you have such a cornucopia of Bloodlines; or what the point of Bloodlines or even Clans are when you have so many Sects.

The interaction of Clans, Sects, and Bloodlines in Requiem is just a convoluted mess. As I understand it, 2e/CofD/whatever exacerbates the problem by making the preexisting Sects more limited to Europe/America and suggesting that there are additional Sects throughout the rest of the world.

Also...owl demons? Really?

>>51371653
>Flawed argument. The job of the VtR core rulebook was to sell me on the idea of ditching Masquerade and picking up Requiem instead, and that ending the Masquerade line in favor of Requiem was worth it. It didn't have to be the best thing I'd ever read, but it did have to present a world that was at least as compelling as that of Masquerade. It failed.

So you seriously claim that the core books should have been more interesting than a game line that has had a decade or more to solidify?

>It's not that I haven't poked my head back into Requiem every now and then, but the adamant refusal to develop any kind of metaplot is what ruins it for me.
What exact parts of metaplot is it you want?

>Also from a game design standpoint I'd also like an explanation as to what the point of Sects (Covenants, whatever) are in Requiem when you have such a cornucopia of Bloodlines; or what the point of Bloodlines or even Clans are when you have so many Sects.
To give characters a choice beyond what they were turned as?
In oWoD, you had two choices when embraced: stay in line, and obey the clan hierarchy, or join the enemy.
In Requiem, characters have options, which in turn gives players options.

>The interaction of Clans, Sects, and Bloodlines in Requiem is just a convoluted mess. As I understand it, 2e/CofD/whatever exacerbates the problem by making the preexisting Sects more limited to Europe/America and suggesting that there are additional Sects throughout the rest of the world.
Whereas I think the "three factions, they are all like this" stuff of oWoD is EXTREMELY simplistic and shallow.

>Also...owl demons? Really?
What about them?

>>51370105

I completely agree. That's why we're focused on your life after the escape, and Durance only really determines your Kith.

Wraith20 is back on the progress list in the Monday Meetings.

So. How long until we get to see the Dark Eras Companion, do you all think?

>>51371833

Before the next Sothic Turn.

Soon enough for my purposes.

>>51371860
Isn't that at like year 3500?

>>51371702
>So you seriously claim that the core books should have been more interesting than a game line that has had a decade or more to solidify?

I claim they should have been around as interesting as the core book they were replacing. Vampire: the Requiem 1e was markedly less interesting than Vampire: the Masquerade Revised, despite similar page counts AND ostensibly having more space for world development since most of the core rules where in World of Darkness.

When I first picked up VtM Revised, the story of Caine was intriguing, the Clan entries and hints of their histories and general trends were enthralling, and the entire chapter devoted to a brief history of the Kindred from their inception to the modern nights was the best part of the book. There's plenty of room left for mystery and uncertainty, but there is still a solid overall framework upon which the setting rested.

Requiem was by comparison empty. I was told, for example, what the Carthian Movement was, but not where it had come from. I didn't know about any Carthian cities or major events in the history of the Carthians, whereas by comparison the VtM core rulebook at least gave me a rough location for the Anarchs (California) and a basic rundown of both the original Anarch Revolt, why it happened, and the Second Anarch Revolt and its reasons.

>In oWoD, you had two choices when embraced: stay in line, and obey the clan hierarchy, or join the enemy.

Lies and misinformation. You had at minimum four choices: Autarkis/Independent, Camarilla, Sabbat, or Anarch. Autarkis vampires aren't the enemy, they're just more focused on themselves than their Clan...which is fine because the book stresses that Kindred are vampires first, Clan second, and Sect a very distant third. Anarch, too, was considered to be a subsect of the Camarilla by the Camarilla. A Nosferatu or whatever who joins the Anarchs is stating a political opinion, not declaring war.

>>51371886
>Lies and misinformation. You had at minimum four choices: Autarkis/Independent, Camarilla, Sabbat, or Anarch. Autarkis vampires aren't the enemy, they're just more focused on themselves than their Clan...which is fine because the book stresses that Kindred are vampires first, Clan second, and Sect a very distant third. Anarch, too, was considered to be a subsect of the Camarilla by the Camarilla. A Nosferatu or whatever who joins the Anarchs is stating a political opinion, not declaring war.

Yeah. I mean it's not like there is bloody conflict between the mother clans and the Antitribu or anything...

>>51371886
>Anarchs
you mean the joke? The Sabbot are better Anarchs than the Anachs

>>51371886
So, if one happens to be Embraced as a Toreador, but is interested in magic and mysticism, how would one go about it then, in Masquerade?

>>51371058

Malfeas#0987

>>51371941
Sucking tremer cock

Continued.

>>51371702
>In Requiem, characters have options, which in turn gives players options.

Again, at the game's inception, empty options. There was no sense of history for any of the Clans or Sects except the Lancea Sanctum and, to a lesser extent, the Ordo Dracul...and both of them only because of definitive origins from which I could extrapolate some history myself, most of which ended up being overwritten by later Requiem products.

I DID learn that most of the Sects hate one another, though, which raises the question as to how they could possibly exist in the same city with one another...which made me really want to have a God-damned map of who controls what and where since the Sects should be in a constant state of at the least cold war with one another and unwilling to allow vampires of other sects into their cities. The Sects should have basically been vampire shadow nations spread across the planet, with definite borders and spheres of influence.

However the book instead suggested that in most cities the Sects instead allow each other in to some greater or lesser extent in each city...which basically turned them into fucking MMO guilds. Join up for our Exclusive Discipline, but only if you do enough quests. We're constantly in a state of cold war with each other, but nothing is ever going to actually change from that war because then the Devs would have to advance the plot. Status Quo is God.

>Whereas I think the "three factions, they are all like this"

That doesn't apply to any of the Sects in Masquerade, except the Tal'mahe'Ra and perhaps the Inconnu, but the former are stupid anyway, and the latter are deliberately mysterious and there's seriously only like three of them anyway. The Camarilla, Sabbat, and Anarchs were all of them full of nuance, however.

>What about them?

I want you to say "Evil demon owls are basically the primary antagonists of Requiem" out loud and then try and tell me it isn't ridiculous.

Stryx are cool as fuck. They are fuxking scary and creepy. They also make a mockery of Vampire power structures by sewing paranoia.

A Stryx can possess a vampire
A Stryx can make another vampire look like another Stryx when scrutanized.

Think of the Changelings in Star Trek DS9 and Cylons from BSG.

>>51371970
>primary antagonists
There's your problem Anon. You're still clinging to the simple, weak, and easy main enemy narrative owod feed you. Strix aren't main antagonists You are.

My ideal hybrid between the two game line settings would be to pick and choose. For example;

Masquerade (with some VtR elements)
Werewolf the Apocalypse (with some Tribe condensing, like in WtF)
Mage the Awakening (1e lore)
Changeling the Lost
Demon the Reckoning
Wraith the Oblivion
Hunter the Vigil (but with stronger tiers that allow for Reckoning style play)

and I don't give a shit about the rest

Taking the respective power levels of those splats too. I don't know how anyone enjoys Forsaken mechanically, at least in combat, if they've ever played a Garou. Same with Requiem vampires.

>>51371461
Nothing

>>51371981

I dislike Stryx. The owl motif is too goofy, sorry, and they are weirdly specific about why they exist and what they do in a gameline that everyone tries to sell to me as being MYSTERIOUS and OPEN ENDED.

Plus I think the Antes and Sabbat did a better job of what they're trying to do.

>>51371915
Nuance again. Assamite and Assamite antitribu never fight. Nosferatu and Nosferatu antitribu might occasionally fight, but both sides quickly close ranks and unite as soon as they catch wind of a Niktuku. Salubri antitribu would never lay a finger on an actual Salubri. There are no Tzimisce antitribu; the autarkis among the Clan are left alone to do their own thing because the Sabbat Tzimisce are perfectly okay with it.

>>51371936
According to V20 lore, the Anarchs have retaken the Free State, and even before V20, the canonical ending to Bloodlines is that the Camarilla got kicked out of LA but that the Kuei-jin didn't take control, which means either Anarch or Lone Wolf ending for the Fledgling.

>>51371941
1) Anarch Tremere
2) Caitiff who developed Thaumaturgy (can and does totally happen)
3) Personal research; might take awhile.
4) Provided non-Blood magic is on the table, seeking out the Arcanum or some other mortal Sorcerer.

>>51371970
>I DID learn that most of the Sects hate one another,

And there, there already, you are wrong. They exist in opposition a lot of the time, but they aren't enemies. Rivals and opponents perhaps, but they don't hate each other.

>That doesn't apply to any of the Sects in Masquerade, except the Tal'mahe'Ra and perhaps the Inconnu, but the former are stupid anyway, and the latter are deliberately mysterious and there's seriously only like three of them anyway. The Camarilla, Sabbat, and Anarchs were all of them full of nuance, however.
Did you seriously just claim that the Sabbat are nuanced?

>I want you to say "Evil demon owls are basically the primary antagonists of Requiem" out loud and then try and tell me it isn't ridiculous.
I wouldn't say that. Because it simply isn't true.

>>51372048
>1) Anarch Tremere
And here I thought all Tremere who left the Pyramid were hunted down and killed.

>>51372049

>And there, there already, you are wrong. They exist in opposition a lot of the time, but they aren't enemies. Rivals and opponents perhaps, but they don't hate each other.

Not that anon, but I dislike Requiem for this reason. Its so fucking milquetoast about everything. They're really stressing the 'personal' part of the 'personal horror' aspect.

>>51372032
>Nothing
Ah. It timed out.

http://www.pixiv.net/member_illust.php?mode=medium&illust_id=59685473

>>51372064
>They're really stressing the 'personal' part of the 'personal horror' aspect.
And that's wrong.. why?

>>51372083

Not everyone wants the story to revolve around their every day drama like a shitty soap, anon. Some of us want to work within, or against, or both, bigger social groups and entities, both low and high level politics, and so on. That was one of the big appealing parts of Masquerade for a lot of people.

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>>51371981
THEY ARE OWLS.

>>51371997
No, you're not. You're confusing "antagonist" with "villain" or "enemy".

An antagonist is a person or a group of people who opposes a protagonist. Since the players are the protagonists of a chronicle, it is literally - and I do mean "literally" - impossible for them to be the antagonists as well.

You'd have a stronger argument if you'd said "your Beast is". However, the Beast doesn't act with intelligent will. The Strix do, and they're organized, and actively working against every vampire in the world.

AND THEY'RE OWLS. They're utterly ridiculous. Like, Shyamalan ridiculous.

I just cannot imagine the Strix as anything other than the "O RLY" owl popping up whenever a vampire tries to get anything done.

>>51372106
>THEY ARE OWLS.
They are demonic spirits.

>I just cannot imagine the Strix as anything other than the "O RLY" owl popping up whenever a vampire tries to get anything done.
I take it you have never seen an owl, then? In real life I mean, in the wild?

>>51372106
In many cultures Owls are a fucking harbinger of Death.

>>51372130

Owls that universally look like and assume the visage of owls.

>>51372135

Those cultures are dead. Modern depictions, technology and proliferation of knowledge have educated us to know that they are in fact, kind of dumb and silly.

>>51372144
I repeat:
I take it you have never seen an owl, then? In real life I mean, in the wild?

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>>51372061
1) Nope. There are totally Anarch Tremere. It's not my fault you've never read Guide to the Anarchs, where they have a full Clan entry and everything.

2) Again, the Camarilla considers the Anarchs to be simply a faction within the Camarilla; AND most vampires are loyal to themselves first, Clan second, and Sect in a distant third. An Anarch Tremere has merely expressed dissatisfaction with the way the Camarilla has run

>>51372083
Because nearly every Vampire game I have ever been in, run, or seen played has been less a Storytelling Game of Personal Horror set in a World of Darkness and more a Storytelling Game of Chucklefucks set in a World of Ow I Stubbed My Toe Someone Turn On The Damn Light. Either that or what >>51372095 described.

There's more than one way to play Vampire, but Requiem seems to take offense to that notion more than Masquerade ever did (and Masquerade, towards it end, took a *lot* of offense).

>>51372021

>Demon the Reckoning

what?

>>51372164

In the middle of the night, in a forest, yes. They are loud. That part is startling until you actually see the fucking thing or realize its an owl screech.

Five seconds on Youtube will dispel a lot of people's fears of owls, visually speaking.

If you had a demonic sheep with blazing red eyes cavorting at you going 90mph then that would be terrifying, yes. You can apply 'spooky demon X that moves unnaturally' to nearly any fucking thing and make it scary. I'm sorry but owls, are not fucking scary. They're exceptionally dumb.

Do your research.

>>51372144
What is symbolism

Moloch visits me every night

https://youtu.be/ENT_i_L3bGc

>>51372204

Symbolism can have the piss taken out of it by modern conveniences i.e. an internet access and reams of YouTube videos. Unless your leech was a grandma born during the 20's you've probably interacted with these things by now if its set circa 2017.

>>51372144
Owls are very efficient birds of prey, anon. They're top tier hunters of the night, which is why Stryx are depicted as owls. They are to vampires, as vampires are to humans. Get it?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XeFxdkaFzRA
Here's a goofy yet educational video about owls.

>>51372218

>obscure the features
>poor lighting, greyscale
>move unnaturally

That's like spooky 101, you could apply that to someone wearing a trash bag over their head.

>>51372243
Also, the vampire - owl connection is pretty strong in myths from the Mediterranean region, so it's not like the Strix are grabbed from thin air.

I mean, Lilith is symbolized by a bloody owl for fucks sake.

>>51372130
I've seen plenty of owls. If one of them was coming at me with his talons out, I'd be pretty startled, possibly afraid depending upon the size of the owl. But then the same would apply if a kangaroo charged at me looking to start shit. Or a male platypus; those fuckers are venomous, with a toxin so painful that some doctors legitimately recommend amputation rather than keeping the affected limb.

That does NOT, however, mean that it's a good idea to therefore make Platypus Demons that go around trying to fuck with vampires. Some animals are just innately harmless or silly in the public consciousness, and owls rank pretty highly on that list, seeing as owls are known for being wise advisors of Pooh-Bear and fucking cheaters at figuring out Tootsie Pop related questions.

I mean...come on. You want an animal demon that represents the Beast, and you choose a fucking owl? Not a bat, or a wolf, animals actually associated with vampires? Not a RAT? That'd be a great callback to Nosferatu (the film, not the clan).

>>51372261

They still look and act like idiots. >>51372243

>>51372267
No. Owls don't act like idiots. The idiot who made that video, acts like an idiot.

>>51372267
Did an owl swoop off with your kitten when you were a kid or something?

>>51372106
>No, you're not.
I'm sorry do you think your vampire buddies are actually your friends? wow that on another level of sad

M20 Book of Secrets UPDATE
M20 BoS art is being made, maybe we’ll have some teasers soon

Does /WoD/ think this book will be better or worse overall than the m20 core?

>>51372290

They aren't scary for >>51372266 reasons above. Sorry but we live in an enlightened era? They an't spooky. And that they are the central antagonist to your existence as a Vampire really takes the piss out of the setting for some people, probably more than you think.

>>51372243
>Owls are very efficient birds of prey, anon

They are also among the least intelligent of predatory birds. Crows would have been a better choice, due to also being associated with death and being among the MOST intelligent animals, period, nevermind just birds. Strix do, of course, occasionally take on a crow appearance, but their main motiff is fucking owls.

OWLS.

>They're top tier hunters of the night

No, they're not. They feed on mice and squirrels and skunks and other rodents, or lizards or amphibians. The most daring of owls might nab a fox cub. But they're not major predators by any means.

VAMPIRE FAGS GET OUT

>>51372312

I'd honestly take the VtR hate any day over mageposting.

MAGE FAGS GET OUT

>>51372312
No. We have the most popular splat. We get to stay. Forever.

>>51372311
They look like owls because they come from the blood-sucking owls from Roman mythology. It's as simple as that.

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>>51372261
Not symbolized by, but mentioned beside the screech owl, for its habit of fucking screeching at night. They're only about 10 inches tall at maximum. It's a tiny thing that screamed a lot and scared ancient people because of it. Fucking ostriches are mentioned in the same passage, and are scarier than an owl.

If you told me vampires were being chased around by cassowaries at night I might feel a little more pressured, if we need to use a fucking bird.

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>>51372139
>Owls that
They're living shadows that take the rough shape of owls. That's not really assuming the visage.

>>51372292
I was assuming the poster I was responding to was using a singular "you". If it was a plural, well, that depends upon the coterie.

>>51372299

Brucato did a lousy job with M20, and the first supplement. How Do You Do That sucked, and didn't really explain how to do much of anything. I therefore have little confidence in Book of Secrets.

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>>51372349

>demonic cassowaries

>>51372353
If it walks like an owl, flies like an owl, and looks like a fucking owl, it might be owl-like enough to basically be an owl.

>>51372311
Crows aren't birds of prey. Vampires are hardly the most intelligent splat. Owls fit vampires because they're nocturnal hunters, and as you pointed out they go for weak prey. Humans are pretty weak prey for a vampire. Not to mention owls also have symbolic ties to death.

Owls fit vampires. Get the fuck over it.

>>51372381
>What is symbolic spiritualism?

>>51372393
>they both hunt at night! this makes them related enough!

Do you know how many predators hunt at night? Because it's pretty much almost all of them. Octopi hunt at night. Why not an octopus, anon?

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>>51372347
It was a dumbass fucking move. Hell, associating vampires with Rome at all was a dumbass fucking move, at least as heavily as they've done so. VtM had some vague stuff about Rome and Carthage in its backstory but never actually went there because it knew how awkward it was to shoehorn vampires into a setting that isn't really associated with them. Like trying to fit ninjas into the Battle of Hastings.

>>51372353
I'm not saying that isn't potentially spooky if I encountered it. But I'm NOT encountering it. My character is.

My Storyteller is telling me, "you see a bunch of scary owls". I ask "how scary" and he shows me that picture, and I respond with "that's kind of spooky, but not really scary".

Then they try and possess my character or something, and my Storyteller looks at me expectantly, and the only possible response is, "what they DID was kind of scary, but that doesn't change the fact that owls aren't scary. They're at most spooky. They managed to be scary IN SPITE OF being owls, not because they were owls. Because owls aren't scary."

And then I probably follow up with pic so as to show my Storyteller how to actually be scary when he wants living shadows.

>>51372405
>Why not an octopus, anon?
I agree, the Stryx just don't have enough tentacles.

>>51372393

Nope, not more than bats. Bella Legosi solidified that and pop culture retains it. When you say vampires people think of bats, if they think of animals at all. Although with all the True Blood and Vampire Diaries and other shit people watch these days they probably don't attribute teen angst, bad romance and edginess more to vampires than any sort of animal aspect.

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>>51372405

You know every "argument" oWoD fag is making is a biased opinion tather than the merits of the actual game.

>>51372359
>Brucato

You didn't need to type anything after that.

>>51372404
>What is poorly chosen symbolic spiritualism when the intent is to create something scary?

Fixed that for you.

>>51372393
You know what else isn't very intelligent, hunts at night, and goes for weak prey?

Tigers.

And tigers are fucking horrifying. And tigers have all sorts of symbolic ties to death as long as you're willing to venture beyond Europe and into India.

>Owls fit vampires

Sure, but not as the primary intelligent, organized, powerful antagonists of the whole splat, the nemesis to the entire vampire species.

>>51372428

>implying the nWoD players here aren't biased

>>51372405
>Why not an octopus, anon
Why NOT? DO IT FUCKING DO IT. Ran that game of octopi tentacled looking spirits snaking into vampires mouths. So that when they manifest their bulshit shadow powers their tentacles off out of their mouths Like Mind Fucking Flayer cuthluians from teh depths!

Stop fucking Talking about Waining and Fucking do IT. DO IT

>>51372408
Maybe. It could have been interesting if the only vampires in Rome were the Julii (the revered ancestors spirits) and the Nosferatu (the creepy hungry dead), with maybe the Mekhet and Gangrel tagging along much later.

At this point I'm glad the Stryx are owls for just how salty it makes vampirefags. I miss mageposting. It was better than all this whining.

>>51372436
oh so you're afraid of Owls. Are Owls your X card is that what this is about?

>>51372408
Sounds like you have a shit ST.

>>51372478
>>51372471
>>51372458

What kind of pussy gets scared of a fucking fat ass bird? Did you cut off your nuts as part of your LARPing group ritual?

>>51372487
>Not castrating yourself for a LARP
Why even play, anon?

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>>51372404
You know who else around Rome was very popular and had an owl as her personal symbol?

Minerva, or if we want to jump back, Athena. It's associated with knowledge and wisdom. But I guess because Lilith screamed a lot at night and so did owls it doesn't matter, despite being basically the same symbol. The Romans also had a metric ton of 'death' gods, and if we include lemures and lamias, they're more associated with snakes than owls. They're also associated with dirt and the color black a lot, so your vampires should be fucking terrified of their gothic wardrobe.

>>51372455
That's another issue I take with Requiem, by the way. Since the Clans aren't really unified at all, since Sect is a much more meaningful choice for vampires, I don't understand the point of having Clans at all. It's sort of a vampire "ethnicity", I guess, but every Sect is Vampire America, open to all ethnicities. So the choice of Clan is basically purely for game mechanic purposes, determining your Disciplines and Weakness, but after that it has no real effect or meaning in-setting at all.

>>51372487
I would never LARP Vampire. I'm not a colossal faggot, you see.

>>51372503

You clearly are if you get this bent out of shape when people think owls are stupid.

>>51372503
It's hard to tell based on your posting. You make a pretty convincing colossal faggot after all.

>>51372498
This is also leaving aside, of course, that the Romans had a completely different concept and approach to the subject of death and dying and the afterlife than we do, and which doesn't match up well to Medieval or modern approaches from which most vampire and understanding myth comes.

>>51372498
you say all of this like they're bad things

>>51372533

Maybe if it was sold as forbidden Wisdom and it was something vampires could fall into. But the Strix's primary motivation is purely antagonistic punishing or murdering of the Vampire. There is no Faustian bargains or road to damnation that can be made by chasing after them and their legends. I suppose in the sense that they'll murder you?

>>51372510
I'm not getting bent out of shape at all. I'm not the one crying because vampires got stuck with a spirit animal that doesn't reflect how totally INTELLIGENT and TERRIFYING and POWERFUL they are.

Cry me a river.

>>51372501
It's actually a thing they vaguely tried in Requiem for Rome, but it was a failure since they decided to allow any vampire in the various "wings" without penalties, even if the were considered scum in the fluff. But yes, your clan is basically your ethnicity. It certainly fills a different role to the clans in Masquerade, but it isn't really useless for story purposes.

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>>51372501
You say that like it's a bad thing. If you want to play up Clan just play up blood ties. Fixed done

>pic related

>>51372498
>so your vampires should be fucking terrified of their gothic wardrobe.

...you know, this actually reminds me that Batman is actually afraid of bats, and part of the reason why he dresses like one is to project that fear onto other people.

Do you think Requiem vampires are basically doing the same thing? Do you think they shiver and twitch as they put on their leather and mascara, but keep themselves calm with the mantra of "the Kine are a superstitious and cowardly lot, I'll make them fear AFI and My Chemical Romance and Aiden and Nightwish more than I ever have!"

>>51372551
Guys guys leave this Anon Alone He's really frighten and afraid of Owls and bullying him about his fears isn't healthy

>>51372558
Yes and thank you.

>>51370307
"Knot A Problem"

>>51372558
>Teenagers scare the living shit out of me
>They could care less as long as someone will bleed
>So darken your clothes or strike a violent pose
>Maybe they'll leave you alone but not me

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pBqhUarhaAU

>>51372569
Guys, guys. Leave this anon alone. He never learned how to type better than a spastic third grader and bullying him about his flaws isn't healthy.

>>51372555
The thing with blood ties is that it is, explicitly, just the vampire's "family". The vampire and any vampire "close" to them in terms of Embracing. You don't need a Clan for that, though the game's mechanics will obviously force every Blood Tied member to be in the same Clan.

But there we are again: The Clan's purpose is basically mechanical with no real effect in the larger fluff, no story purpose. The Clans could be excised entirely without changing a single thing about Requiem's setting. They're extraneous.

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>come into thread maybe to see if anyone is playing a VtR game
>get autistic screeching about ghost owls

if you don't like the Strix don't use them

they're not even the "primary antagonist," they're just bogeymen the Kindred are supposed to be scared of and superstitious about

>>51372501
>every Sect is Vampire America

Fuck Yeah!

#CofDSupremacy

>>51372606
We tried arguing that but You know. owod fags will be owod fags

>>51372588
FUCK I should have been the one to post that! Good work, Anon.

>>51372580
De nada.

>>51372589
Guys, guys. Leave this anon alone. He's devolved into spouting insults since he can no longer try and claim that his oclophobia isn't weird since opinion is clearly overwhelmingly against him.

>>51372589
>Autism intensifies

>Vampires

Boring. Let me know when we're talking about how Mages are #1 again.

>>51372621
Thank you Anon. My bro was a huge fan of them, so he would blast it when he could

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>moonlight doesn't BTFO kindred

>>51372631

This whole argument started because idiotic fags thought Vampires were the equals of Mages and that splat balance was a thing.

And then for some reason is devolved into owl hating hour.

>vampirefags shitting up the thread
Guess I'll come back later.

>>51372501
So choosing race in any other game doesn't matter at all?

Clan what you are. Covenant is who you choose to be. Clans have a lot of 'cultural' expectations due to the powers that come easier to them. It's the same as a race in any other game.

>>51372658

Owls are symbols of Wisdom
Mages run on Wisdom
Both are gay

WAKE UP SHEEPLE

>>51372546
>There is no Faustian bargains or road to damnation that can be made by chasing after them and their legends.
Tell that to the Julii.

Strix aren't a hive mind any more than vampires are. Read the sample Strix.

>>51372639
Moonlight isn't sunlight for metaphysical reasons. And it's also something like 10,000 times weaker than light from the Sun anyway.

>>51372638
I mentioned it several threads ago, but I actually unironically still love The Black Parade as being the only decent, real rock n' roll album to come out in the past 20 years or so. My Chemical Romance could have actually maybe become the new Big Rock Band that we haven't had since Guns n' Roses...but Danger Days was kinda' meh as a followup.

Maybe if MCR had released Danger Days first and then followed up with The Black Parade instead.

>>51372680
>Owls are symbols of Wisdom
>Mages run on Wisdom
>Both are gay

Both are fabulous (and supreme).

FIFY.

>>51372710

But Mages are still better than fucking owls.

>>51372715

They probably look like a modern day hipster. They don't even have any Gandalfs. Mages suck.

>>51372729

Beards are still stylish you stupid fuck. Go suck chicken dick.