/btg/ BattleTech General

So, lore-wise, gauss hunchbacks aren't a good idea because they get unbalanced.
So, what about a tripod gaussback?

>>51357958
>implying a gauss would unbalance a hunchback more than an ac20

>>51357978
The Gauss-P Hunchbacks in the War of 3039 certainly did have balance problems anon.

>>51357958
>So, lore-wise, gauss hunchbacks aren't a good idea because they get unbalanced.
I'm pretty sure that was just the one early prototype, because there's a later gaussback with no issues at all

>>51357958

It was just the first attempts with the prototype GR that made things fall over.

It was never tried with production-grade GRs because reasons.

>>51358007

Reading about that was funny.

Imagining Sun and Lyran mech warriors scrambling for cover while a Combine Hunchback flies back through a building.

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>>51357958

I wonder what's stopping them from mounting it on a Hunch Back post Clan Invasion?

The Hollander mounts a Gauss Rifle and it weighs 15 tons less than a Hunchback does.

>>51358728

GRs in the 3050-3055 era weren't overly common and after that pretty much anything that was decent and had a GR went to the FedCom. The AFFC wound up with enough GR-toting machines, and nobody else really mattered.

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BAD TOUCH. BAD TOUCH.

Considering Boeing and General Motors survived, have any other name brands survived into the 3025 era and beyond?

Like Mcdonalds, Pepsi, Coke, Toyota, etc?

>>51357958
I always headcannoned it as the Hunchie's gyro being programmed to handle a burst fired from the AC/20 and not the new Gauss Rifle's singular kick and they never worked the bugs out of that particular mounting's programming.

>>51359142

Nissan had fusion engines as well, and there are Aston Martins in the Vehicle Annex. There are definitely others but I can't remember any off the top of my head.

>>51359142
Apple and Grumman, for example (Apple even has a factory on a world called Macintosh!) and Northrop apparently made it to the 31st century with a small name change (Northrup jump jets). Also Nissan makes fusion reactors.

>>51359142
>>51359142
Apple has its own planet in CC, I believe Renault is around too

>>51359241
There's a Brink security car on TRO:VA also, doesn't?

>>51358007
>>51358506
Does Gauss have recoil?
If so, why? It's a magnetic accelerator, there shouldn't be ANY recoil, much less more than that of an AC/20.

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>>51359079

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>>51359352
>It's a magnetic accelerator, there shouldn't be ANY recoil
>what is momentum

>>51359352
Newton's third law, anon. If you're throwing a slug you're generating recoil. Doesn't matter if you're using chemicals to do it or electromagnets

>>51359352

I...

What?

The American education system hard at work here, people.

>>51359205
Doesn't the Kali Yama fire a single huge slug? If so I think it has more to do with the recoil from accelerating a slug to high velocity vs firing a huge shell.

>>51359446
>>51359453
>>51359459
I've never really given it any thought tbqh.
Even so, would the recoil push it in a direction other than backwards?
(I haven't take physics bear with me)

>>51359510

>For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.

You don't even need to have taken Physics, anon. Just paid some attention during primary school.

>>51359543
No, I get that, I just assumed that BT Gauss worked the same way it does in every other sci-fi setting, which is that it doesn't have recoil because magnets.

>>51359574

What the literal fuck.

I give up.

>>51359497
I have no fucking clue about the Hunchie's nominal gun. That's just how it always worked out in my skull.

>>51359079
What's that Capcom game like Resident Evil but with dinosaurs... Dino Crisis or something? I would so play a vidya where you have a mech lance; limited resources and you have to get through a variety of environments with dinosaur style creates that all think you are their next lunch.
This would all be in the BT universe.
Someone FUND IT!

>>51359574
There is always recoil for every single action. Magnets just accelerate the shot. The force of the shot leaving the barrel induces an equal and opposite force (force being the product of the mass of the slug and it's acceleration as induced by the magnets).

>>51359862
Are you talking about Turok?

>>51359862
creates... I meant creatures.
>Wake up, me.

>>51359876
Turok would be kind of cool as well. Maybe being in a battle armor, or infantry working to get some BA to protect yourself halfway through the game would be cool, but initially I think my memory didn't fail me. It was Dino Crisis.
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLfkZFP3vap4Oa_J-03oc5c59niN1Jr2tZ

>>51359876
No, he was talking about Dino Crisis. He got the name right

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>>51359872
Now that I'm thinking about it, yeah. It's just been ingrained in my mind that they don't. (Halo, Stalker, Half Life).
I don't recall it being a big deal for mechs in the books I've read, (though that is a limited library), or the games (but that's expected).
Well now I've thoroughly made an ass of myself.

>>51359950
>It's just been ingrained in my mind that they don't. (Halo, Stalker, Half Life).
What. Halo has supersoldiers with strength assisting armor, and it has railguns with recoil, and Gordon Freeman is just too much of a badass to be bothered by it.

>>51360011
The Gausshog has no recoil IIRC

There exists an image of a Zeus walking through a city while torso twisting to the right. Scattered behind him are a veritable pile of Draconis lights(predominantly Panthers), doubtlessly dispatched with contemptuous ease.

Anyone have this image handy? I need some Steiner wankfest image for the purpose of riling up a group.

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>>51360218
Got ya

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>>51360384
Steiner stronk

>>51360384
TY my good sir

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>>51360500
Wisdom
>>51360604
No prob have a Bonus Zeus because why not.

>>51360384
>Drac scout lance vs Lyran scout lance

>>51360500

Huh. I never knew Taylor Swift was a open Nazi.

Learn something new every day.

>>51360384
really makes you wonder how incompetent the lyrans must have been to lose the first three succession wars to the damn dracs

>>51360048
It has the same recoil as all other vehicle weapons

>>51360692
She's hotter to me now.

>>51360708

Dracs are approximately fifteen million times more dangerous in backstory than they are in living history.

>>51360673
Nice shitty meme

>>51361046
They were moderately scary in 3025, at least

>>51361103

Yeah, when the backstory fluff suggested they were actually competent and the 3rd SW was mostly border skirmishes with a last-minute push by Hanse to claim victory. Then the 4th SW happened.

>>51360963

Then you're human garbage. Just like every other racial supremacist and supporter on the planet.

>>51361209
I'm a Jew you dumb silly cunt.

>>51361209
The outfit is sexy, fuck you. I fully support treating Nazis like scum, but they had fashion sense.

>>51361209
quality b8

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>>51361209
I think he was joking.

>>51352671
>>51353323

I want to go on record as fully supporting this idea. It's quite cool, and I don't think anybody's done anything like that before. There's guides on individual mech tactics, like the one in the introbox player guide, but a guide on translating actual tactics to the tabletop that is something a lot of people could benefit from.

reposting >>51357591's post to make sure you get the pdfs since the old thread died.

http://www.mediafire.com/file/l2cq94n0q5nwb2k/BattleTech_10972_-_Battletech_Classic_Map_Set_Compilation.pdf

http://www.mediafire.com/file/tbhed88vp4t3z5r/BattleTech_35MPT00_-_Map_Pack_-_Flatlands.pdf

http://www.mediafire.com/file/ejtde8w6c38anud/BattleTech_35MPT00_-_Map_Pack_-_Hill_Terrain_Set.pdf

The newb anon here, the one asking questions about Steiner mechs and campaigns. Just want to thank everyone for helping me out.

>>51361493
Someone should make a version of that mimicking the Liao sigil.

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Who makes better mechs, the Capellans or Dracs.

Trying to get a figure for technological development and threat level.

>>51362493
>Dat pooooool
Isn't that the pool that shows up in so many JAVs dealing with swimsuits?

>>51362493
The answer as it always is, depends on when.

Caps were shit until the Xen Sheng
Dracs have dragged behind since the 3050's but correct their course somewhat by the Early Republic

>>51362493
Capellans are better off by far. They may be smaller but they've always been the bigger threat.

>>51362493
>happy cat.jpg

>>51357845
>http://bg.battletech.com/universe/great-houses/
>http://bg.battletech.com/universe/the-clans/
>http://bg.battletech.com/universe/other-powers/

These links don't work and battletech.com is down too.
Is this temporary or just outdated?

>>51362591
That's the official site. Temporary outage.

All our thread stuff is in the mediafire folders.

>>51362561
Newb anon here. Whats the Republic?

I know of the Free Rasalhague Republic and the Rim Worlds Republic and that's about it.

I doubt you're talking about either of those. Note, I'm currently in the Federated Commonwealth Civil War when it comes to what I've been reading.

>>51362662
FRR should never be thought of as anything but a non-important splinter state like St. Ives. Some Catalyst material gives the wrong impression that they were more major than that because they tried to move the entry point for the franchise from 3025 to 3039 for a few years back in the mid-2000's.

Republic Era refers to the Republic of the Sphere. That's the Era after the Jihad and before the Dark Age, Jihad being right after the Civil War stuff you're in now.

You want crazy though, just look at all the states that end with Protectorate.

>>51362759
I only know of Rasalhague because hoopla digital has the Blood of Kerensky trilogy audiobooks. Phelan Kell's lover at the start of Book 1 is the daughter of Rasalhague's leader.

>>51362505
Stop thinking about porn so much, anon

I know the Cappies have a rep for throwing AC/20s on things. Can you kind folks list any examples? I think it might be fun to roll with a mixed force of these heavy-hitters.

>>51363536

>I know the Cappies have a rep for throwing AC/20s on things.

That's a /btg/ suggestion for giving them unque flavour. However it immediately falls apart because having big guns is the Steiner trait and they're the ones with the most A/C-20s.

For the Capellans it's the Victor, Thunder, Yu Huang, and Lao Hu.

Hang on, NEA gave me a good explanation of the ROTS, lemme find it.

It wasn't NEA, but good summary nonetheless.
>>51362662

The Republic is the old Blake Protectorate rebranded as the Terran Hegemony 2.0 and run by a mysterious man with no past who busted out of a concentration camp on Kittery in the Jihad and formed a cult of personality around him. VSD latched onto him as a convenient figurehead for a new Coalition and killed all well most of the Blakists.

The units got so buddy buddy in all the fighting that a bunch of them defected to Stone, just like the Comguard did for Victor after Bulldog.

And so in the power vacuum with the Houses the weakest they've ever been, Stone starts his new state in what was basically the old Chaos March. With Victor and Duke Allard Liao's son as his toadies, he also allies with the Davions to form a solid power block. Then while everyone is still rebuilding he strengthens his realm and nabs all the core worlds he can.

Davion hands them over in a long game where they figure they can always take them back later if the state collapses or alliances change, and why pay for reconstruction when somebody else is willing?
Dracs play a similar game for the most part but losing the Azami made zero sense.
Marik has them taken away by force but can't get their shit together to properly contest it.
Steiner figures why not make Skye somebody else's problem?
Liao did not give up easily and fought several hot wars and a continuing low level brush war for their worlds for the full fifty years after the formation of the place until the Blackout and has been on an almost 3rd Succession War level of moderate war and successful invasion since then.

That's the story of the Republic in general from it's formation to the Blackout.

>>51363596
Maybe it's just my exposure to /btg/ but I thought the Steiners was Big Mechs in general, some featuring big guns but some not.

IIRC the Liaos were big on the big gun thing too, liking getting Dual Gauss monsters.

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I really like the fluff surrounding the Republic of the Sphere. Noblebright and destined to fall, plucky liberators with just a hint of fascism, superscience with unlimited budgets,and lol, you can't hyperspace jump past this line. Pretty fun, really.

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Really feel like I leveled up recently, hope it makes some of the harder mechs easier/less time consuming.

>>51364000
It's definitely gotten better than it was presented at first.

>>51363849

Lyrans had a fondness for the big guns at the start of the game whereas the Capellans were more about A/C-10s, PPCs, and Large Lasers. Once the U-A/C and LB-X 20s are available the Lyrans start strapping them onto god damn everything too.

The Cappies also only got one home-grown Gauss monster, the Pillager (which was also manufactured by the Federated Suns until Coleman noticed). The only place GRs are really uncommon is the FWL where the LGR takes pride of place, everyone else uses it as much as possible.

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Should Arrow artillery Cats get fuckhuge missile racks?

>>51364056
Yeah, it actually moved me, which is pretty rare for BT story stuff.

>>51363536
They kinda started to go in this direction, with their love of the Cyclops, the Victor production, their Charger variant, and the Thunder being one of their first new 'Mechs in a while that wasn't a FrankenMech and weighed more than 60 tons. But sadly, that's headcannon, as much as a few of us want to believe in it. In reality they jumped on the Gauss train.

>>51364105
And also the LB 10-X train, not that I blame them.

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>>51364100
>Should Arrow artillery Cats get fuckhuge missile racks?

The illustration in TRO3050, FWIW, shows it with two racks exactly the same size as the old LRM's. The right "arm" has a door swinging open with five large missiles visible, and the left arm ... is just there for balance?!?

>This is from TRO3050U, but there's really not much difference.

>>51364000
>just a hint

Have you even read the novels on the Senate Rebellion? Sure, they're supposed to hamfistedly parallel Rome's transition to an empire instead of a republic in the same way the Fedcom Civil War was full of American Civil War references, but still.

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>>51364205
yeah, I was wondering if i should go all asymmetrical for the C3 and if arty should = big, like so.

>>51364456
>yeah, I was wondering if i should go all asymmetrical for the C3 and if arty should = big, like so.

Your way of illustrating it makes so much more sense than what's in the TRO's, but that's no surprise. The illustration of the Hermes in TRO3050, for example, shows the left hand replaced with a gun (or possibly three guns!) and a gun protruding from its belly... but it just has a medium laser in each arm. All three variants described in TRO3050 drop the flamer, yet that's what appears to be mounted on the left arm.

>>51364456
I really like this, but I'd put at least some kind of nominal arm on the other side; maybe a "shield" like the Raven 2X in MWO? I liked that aesthetic a lot, actually, and though it was a good way to represent it. Even the classic Cicada has arms like that.

>>51363792
I actually fought for the Skye Separatists in MW4:Mercs. It's a early game mission series. Of course, then I helped Steiner forces against the Sky Separatists. Cause, you know, mercenaries.

>>51363596
The Caps have the second most headcappers after the Lyrans in terms of what comes up in the average unit, iirc, and they lean towards the AC20 side while the Lyrans lean to the Gauss side. I did this comparison a while ago, so unfortunately I don't have the doc handy.

In order of headcappers thrown around, it was Lyrans>Cappies>Feddies>Dracs>>>FWL

>>51364779

I roll to disbelieve, since the Lyrans and Suns throw GRs around like they're going out of style. The Caps having more than the Dracs wouldn't surprise me given their focus on PPCs though.

>>51364779
Huh, so it's not as headcannon as I thought? Neat. Interesting to note. I had always thought they had a thing for heavy weapons, but figured I was biasing my own observations/recollections because I like AC/20s and want them to like them too. Though, honestly, since I dislike Xin Sheng and want my underdogs back, I would rather they threw in with the most utilitarian weapon systems that offer the most bang for the buck in terms of performance:
>Plasma Rifle
>LB 10-X
>MML
I also liked the EW bent they went on.

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>>51364574
Word. Evans should stick to character art, his mechs are mediocre at best.
>>51364634
I can dig it.

I am always glad to see people discussing about the RotS without shitposting. I love you all, keep the good taste in factions you have <3

>>51364703
>Skye Separatists

Those guys have to be some of the dumbest fucks in BT lore.

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>>51364779
Why is the FWL so subpar?

>>51364895
I really like how that looks. I might argue that the shield be slightly larger, but I think that might just be so it translates a bit better since the sprite is so small. But that looks awesome. I want all of your sprites for MM when they are said and done. Spectacular, and you're a credit to the community, anon.

>>51364958

Combination of "lol lgrs errywhere" and a total lack of authors who gave a shit about them.

>>51364934
How do I jump into the RotS lore-wise?

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>>51365015
Thank you! Appreciate the feedback, it means a lot. I usually marinate on designs for a while, and need to see how they look in MM since the way it anti-aliases the pixels can lead to weird looking stuff.

>>51365084
Jihad books, followed by Dark Age books and novels.

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>>51365117
Makes sense to me. I like how a lot of your stuff blends the classic looks with some of the more updated takes, like MWO's concept art. It makes the sprites feel familiar to anyone no matter how they were exposed to Battletech initially. Ease of recognition is super-important, so it's a very nice feature they have.

>>51364863
Of course, now that I mention it, I have to make something that uses all three of those systems. Cappies don't really need another Trooper design, what with the Vindie, Cataphract, and Calliope, but as something cheap and flexible, it might appeal to Mercs or as a militia/garrison unit. Lack of any energy backup weapons is a bit of a problem for a campaign, but I figure it's just "company store" marketing, and totally not designer oversight or wanting 10t of armor instead of a 9t and a ML.

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Who could possibly be behind this?

>>51365475
At least it's not...

Newb here, I need advice for an upcoming game.

I mentioned the possibility of it before but we did a different match that time.

Me in a standard Banshee vs a my friend with a Cyclops.

What tactics should I use to win?

Besides stay at range to avoid his AC20.

>>51365699

Wear him down a bit then run in and punch him up.

>>51365699
>banshee has all weapons in torso so can't even run properly away while firing

sad

>>51365753
Won't that expose me to the AC20? I think only a couple of hits could wreck me.

>>51365769
How do you mean?

>>51365699
Who decided on this matchup? It's kinda lopsided. Honestly your best bet is to stay at range and use up all your AC ammo. You outmatch the Cyclops at long range easily, and can match its speed. Never, ever get close unless its prone for some reason and you're going to kick it to death. Its short range weaponry is going to eat you alive, even if you have more armor.

Kite, and win.

>>51365699
>Me in a standard Banshee vs a my friend with a Cyclops.

Your only advantage is your range. Stay at long range and get him to waste his LRM's on 11's and 12's. Then tear him apart with your long guns once he runs dry.

If you're going equal BV, then you should be able to get a better pilot as well.

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>>51365475
But anon, I made the list. And it's an ERPPC mech, what did you expect?

>>51365891

The Cyclops only has 20 armour over the A/C-20 and its ammo in each side torso. You could well be internal within 6 turns. Knocking it out or forcing him to dump ammo to prevent an explosion is a definite possibility.

In close your physicals do more damage than his. You can go internal on his legs with one kick.

>>51365898
We did. We're both new. We've done a Hunchback vs Enforcer fight (Enforcer won), Trebuchet vs Dervish (Trebuchet won) and now this.

Just kinda random. Looking at mechs in the book.

We were also thinking about Awesome vs Zeus. I'd get the Awesome.

Should I just try to switch out the Banshee and take the Awesome?

>>51365891
I mean there's no way for the banshee to actually try to skirmish the cyclops.

It either sits still, walks backwards (a pretty bad idea), or if it tries to walk in any direction close to directly away from the cyclops, it can't torso twist far enough to shoot it's weapons.

>>51366070

>We were also thinking about Awesome vs Zeus. I'd get the Awesome.

Shit no, anon. That is a one-way trip to loser town for the Zeus player, it's not even a vaguely fair match-up.

The Awesome will fuck up any 3025 assault aside from *maybe* an Atlas that manages to get in close without being badly weakened, a Banshee-S, or a Marauder II.

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>>51366070
>Should I just try to switch out the Banshee and take the Awesome?

That's be terribly unfair to the poor sap in the Cyclops, if you ask me.

>>51366070
>We were also thinking about Awesome vs Zeus. I'd get the Awesome.
that would be a hidiously unbalanced fight; the zeus would get wrecked every single time

>>51366070
You should use Sarna.net to research the Battle Value (BV) of the units you want to pit against each other. Specifically, BV2. It's the best way to at least get reasonably fair matchups. The Awesome will eat a Zeus alive.

>>51366134
>>51366143
>>51366147
Ok, what would be a balanced assault fight with the mechs available in the introductory box set?

We figured the Atlas would be unfair for anyone and so narrowed it to Banshee vs Cyclops and Awesome vs Zeus.

>>51364856
You might be surprised. as I said this was a while ago, so I can't show you the doc since I don't know which of like 8 computers it's on and don't have time to look. What I did was roll up a battalion for each house, then compared them. The Lyrans had a large number of GRs and AC20s, the Feddies mostly had GRs, the Cappies had a good number of both AC20s and GRs, the Dracs made up for their lack of the others with HPPCs, and the FWL had something like two gauss rifles on one mech in the whole battalion.

>>51366189
What keeps the FWL going then? I mean you're a big fan of theirs, how do they deal heavy damage?

>>51366184
Atlas VS Awesome would actually be more balanced than you think, especially if the Awesome has a slightly better pilot

>>51366208
Sustained damage/larger groups of smaller hits. They like Large Lasers, LGRs, and LRMs. They keep you at range and wear you down with sustained fire, then kill you if they haven't TACed or whittled you to death by then.

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>>51365996
and that's why you are great, should feel great, and deserve to make more things canon.

>>51366189

>RATs, not fluff.

Well that's the problem right there.

>>51366209

The Atlas would need the better pilot, I think. 3 PPCs turn after turn while it closes at 3/5 is going to cause some trouble when all it's got is an LRM-20 in reply. If the Atlas can close without gaping wounds all over it can bring the pain, but closing is the problem.

>>51364935
Well, they offered me salvage of all the Steiner stuff. I'm a huge Steiner fan so having their mechs and weapons was pretty awesome. Although, oddly enough, I never encountered any real Steiner mechs. The Steiner forces I was launching raids against were using Arguses, Wolfhounds, Catapults and a single Thanatos. Mostly the Steiner forces on Eaton, the Skye Separatists planet you fight on in the first mission chain of the game, are made up of vehicles like Demolisher II's, Nightwings, LRM Carriers and so on.

>>51366208
Well I'm not a fan of them because of their headcapping potential, that's for sure...

My favorite thing about the FWL is SG LRMs and LGR medium range. My other favorite thing is that they bring a bunch of OK units that need to work together to the fight.

For example, the Albatross. It's OK on its own, but I like to bring three or four of them. Now you have a weapon for any occasion, times three.

Another example of FWL philosophy is how they distribute LRMs - while they do have some dedicated carriers, they tend to bring an LRM launcher on most units, instead of putting one LRM boat on the field and counting on that to do the trick.

>>51366096
That is just one of the flaws of the game.

>>51366281
I inadvertently made a lot of the typical FWL mechs better too, according to the OF.

>>51366526
Examples?

>>51366553
The Anvil has Extended Torso Twist and Imp Targeting Medium for one. While the Hammer got the torso twist and Long range. The Cerberus got improved targeting Long as well.

>>51366594

I'm trying to not tke the KGC getting no torso twist personally

>>51366762
I teared up a little. It hurts to see my baby get nerfed.

>>51366865
>>51366762
brb painting my KGC in green and adding a FRONT TOWARDS ENEMY

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I really shouldn't have left the Mechs I like the least for last.

>>51367209
>not liking based Cyclops
Get out, heretic. for real though, why?

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Are there any places that sell the MW4:Mercs version of the Hellhound/Conjurer? I don't like either version of the Hellhound shown in Record Sheets 3055 Upgrades and would rather have the MW4:Mercs version. The only Hellhound mini I can find is the Hellhound 2 Variant from IWM.

Pic is of the MW4:Mercs Hellhound.

>>51367227
Not him, but it has no good upgrades after clan invasion.

>>51367227
Super dork aesthetics and weird layout. Not really an AC-20 fan either. Mostly, I just knew it was going to be hard to draw nicely. Above will probably get redrawn like three or four more times, this is the first revision I have liked enough to share.
>>51367368
Our Russian friends have your back

>>51367400
Russian friends?

>>51367368
The real Hellhound is a Wolverine IIC. The MW4 version just one of those things that shares a name, like all the ships named after planets. That thing isn't a Conjuror. It doesn't share weapon loadout or any of that.

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>>51367368
woops
>>51367403
Warhansa

>>51367406
Um, it does share the same weapon configuration and Sarna.net states the picture I shared is the MW4:Mercs version of the Hellhound.

I can make it into a Hellhound, Hellhound 2, Hellhound 3 and Hellhound 5. The only Hellhound loadout I can't make in the game is the Hellhound 4, and that's just because there's not enough weapon slots for all the weapons.

Note: I play MW4:Mercs with all the MekTek stuff. In the Vanilla version of MW4:Mercs, the Hellhound can only be configured with the base Loadout. The weapons for the 4 variants aren't in the Vanilla version.

So even in the vanilla version, the MW4:Mercs Hellhound shares a loadout with the Tabletop. It's just the MekPaks make it possible to configure it in 4 of the 5 Hellhound loadouts.

>>51367537
>no lower arm or hand actuators
>actual model doesn't reflect any canon loadout

I know you're new but trust me on this one.

>>51367537
>Um, it does share the same weapon configuration and Sarna.net states the picture I shared is the MW4:Mercs version of the Hellhound.
There is no canon Hellhound that mounts paired ERLLs, an LB-10X and an SSRM-6. Try again. Plus,
>Sarna
>being correct about anything
pull the other one.

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How about a BT filename challenge?

Hardmode: not about CGL or Coleman.

>>51367696

FWL_meets_WizKids.jpg

>>51367696
>4SW.jpg

>>51367400
What about doing the 4e introbox edition?
It's a lot less goofy

>>51365996
Having made the list, was the implication that the 85t Marauder IIc is beefier than the Marauder AND the Marauder II intentional?

Marauder and Marauder II both have Narrow/LowProfile but the IIc does not.

>>51367849
The Marauder II shouldn't have the Narrow/Low Profile quirk, it was likely an error that crept in while putting the list in the book. Mea culpa.

>>51367636
>>51367647
I still think it's the Hellhound/Conjurer. MW4:Mercs was released in 2002. This was a year before the Reseen Hellhound came out and they couldn't use the Unseen version due to the lawsuit. So, they created a new version of the Hellhound so they can include in in there game.

As for the default loadout in the game, never claimed it matched up with any of the loadouts. I stated it shares a loadout. I can easily make the Hellhound match 4 out of 5 of the canon variants.

Hell, a LOT of the Mech Loadouts in MW4 don't match up with anything in canon, as far as I've seen. A lot of dates and events don't match up in the game and in canon either. Such as the Free Skye Uprising starting in 3066 instead of 3065, Clan Wolf conquering New Canton instead of New Canton becoming part of the Blake Protectorate and Clan Jade Falcon violating the arrangement worked out by Archer Christifori and Adam Steiner with Khan Marthe Pryde by attempting to take New Exford.

Arguing canon reasons as to why something cannot be in a game that has a storyline that only loosely follows canon in the first place isn't going to get anywhere.

>>51362206
>http://www.mediafire.com/file/l2cq94n0q5nwb2k/BattleTech_10972_-_Battletech_Classic_Map_Set_Compilation.pdf

I thought 10972 was supposed to be Map Set 7?

Is the real Map Set 7 available anywhere?

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>>51368096

Only some really low quality photos. Can upload full set if needed

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>>51367696
Easy

>>51367800
yeah, I use those for reference all the time, but they really go to far into the action figure realm for me to want to style stuff purely on them. And the Cyclops is just always going to look dumb in an overhead orthographic projection.

>>51368311

That's better than anything else I've found. Thanks!

>>51361209
What if your an Israeli nationalist?

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>>51360692
It's a /pol/ meme, they kind of leak out of containment sometimes... Don't be so shocked, BT is like the second or third most politically incorrect sci-fi setting still in print.

>>51360963
That said, it's fucked up that /pol/ even fetishised Nazis so damn much, since historically, they censored everything that was against their own political correctness.

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>>51368543

>>51368486
As weak as it is, how can anyone not love the Shadow Hawk / Dougram?

>>51368796

I have a SHD purely out of nostalgia.

>>51368680
>containment
hot meme

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>>51368796
Finally made it through Fang of the Sun last year. Srs Bzns.

>>51368894
Someone put the first 53 episodes on you tube and stopped, so I got mad and put the rest of it as well as the two small shorts and the documentary to finish the series. The guy known as dcisp started a /m/ channel and was streaming the episodes and I wanted to help him finish this through the year. This was the second time I got through the show. Damn good show.
When Dougram busts up Blockheads en masse (Wolverines) I sometimes imagine it's that animated gif of Dougram / Shadow Hawk getting all those crits.
Also Lecoque an ass.
I have the Dougram Comprehensive art books on mediafire if anyone is interested, since this show's mechs has so much of BT's history in it.

>>51368522
Here it is:

http://www.mediafire.com/file/cx71rx51e561lks/Map_set_7.7z

And for those interested, here all the other shitty pictures of mapsheets google found for me on the web over last few years:

http://www.mediafire.com/file/0l06aogy51j5g00/Map_sets1-6.7z
http://www.mediafire.com/file/t5i0fniau9ntfoc/BattleTech_35012_-_Classic_BattleTech_Map_Set_Compilation_2_%28preview%29.pdf
http://www.mediafire.com/file/znaazwqw9zwbjz6/rivers.7z
http://www.mediafire.com/file/dom4cibik6zelb5/Fanmade_map_sheets.7z

Don't know if anyone will find them useful but they are ok for me as references to draw my own

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>>51367696

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>>51368941
Always interested in art. link it.

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>>51368871
/ptg/ is the only worthwhile content in /pol/. Everything else is containment-tier.

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>>51369048
Here you go. There's a lot of moon runes, but it's pretty neat.

Fang of the Sun Dougram Comprehensive pics - -
https://www.mediafire.com/?51g3qrtrq3m61t7

Dougram Comprehensive (OLD SCANS) parts 1 and 2 - - (Big files.)
http://www.mediafire.com/file/q7phw64sjhhk1sp/dougram_comprehensive_part_1.zip
http://www.mediafire.com/file/6sucs5ynk2g62gc/Dougram_comprehensive_part_2.zip

It's been a while since I have gone through them, but I remember it being some interesting stuff.

>>51367921
Also a reasonable solution. I just found it weird that the Marauder IIc was the only one that didn't.

I also want to note that i was kinda torqued that some of my favorites got gimped with "Weak Head Armor (1)", immediately began raging that BT is already too stingy with the head armor... but I came to realize that one point of head armor really only makes a difference in some rather narrow edge cases.

and then there's a couple cases where a mech I hate gets totally shat on, and a mech I love becomes a terrifying monster.

All told? Good work!

Hey gents,
I know that the Regulans/FWL finally has some melee mechs in the Violator (trash), Neanderthal (okay) and kinda in the Sarath (odd).

How would you design a FWL melee mech?

Hello! It's the newb anon again.

Did Catalyst ever release rules or Record Sheets for Solaris VII?

>>51369287
To be fair, two of those are just garbage Solaris mechs from the DA that TPTB randomly decided to give to the Regulans. Not really sure why.

>>51369407
given but it doesn't lessen my hate of them.

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>>51369443
I like the Neanderthal a bit at least, for only one reason.

>"Perhaps there can be a peace between us."
>"Peace? No Peace."
>"What is it you want us to do?"
>"Die."

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>>51369157
>Here you go. There's a lot of moon runes, but it's pretty neat.

Thanks! Consider my interest piqued.

>>51369326

Yes, in the Solaris VII stuff you can get from the links in the OP.

>>51368957
I can think of nothing witty enough to adequately express my thanks.

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What are some good mechs for police work?

>>51369761
Not a mech, but the Ignis.

t. Stefan Amaris

>>51369761
that Hollander is a loose cannon, but he's a damn good cop

>>51369761
Bugs.

>Hands
Check
>Jumpjets
Check
>Rubber rounds for machine guns
>Gas rounds for SRM's
Check
>Big gun to wipe BAR4 criminal scum off the map
Checkarooni

Newish guy here. Been reading Total Warfare. How much of the rules should I know before jumping into MegaMek funtimes? I ask because reading my way through Total Warfare has felt like a chore more than anything so far and kinda want to jump into a game already.

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>>51369947

>Hands
>Jumpjets

>>51370117

Depends on the level you wanna start playing at. Introtech/grogtech is the lowest tech level, and it's not really all that bad to get into there, especially since MM does the rolls for you. Anything past the intro box set gets a bit more complex, and if you're new I'd stay away from it for a bit.

>>51370145
that one's good for chasing down them duke boys

So, what killed Battletech?

>>51370342
retconning mech availability

>>51370342

everything i don't like

>>51370397
So, the CCG, FASA's business acumen, and Catalyst's embezzlement?

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>>51369761
>What are some good mechs for police work?

That depends... what are the criminals driving?

>>51370447
>urban pacification on Luthien
>it's not just some poor second-line SOB with a firestarter

>>51370465
>Urban pacification on Luthien
>Not samurai riding Giant Luthien Crabs

Where's my Crab Infantry CGL?

>>51365015
+1

>>51344453
>>51345335
I went digging for it but I couldn't locate my original diagram, I'll have to draw a new one.

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>>51369761
> What are some good mechs for police work?

Hey /btg/, lets say I want to introduce my girlfriend to battletech, and she said if there was punching and explosions she might like it. Whats a good 1v1 or 2v2 battle she and I can play that highlights punching and ammo explosions?

>>51371172
>Whats a good 1v1 or 2v2 battle she and I can play that highlights punching and ammo explosions?
you each get a cyclops and a banshee. get ready to brawl

>>51371172
Hunchbacks love short range, and Dervishes always explode good. Mirror match HBK+DV vs HBK+DV?

>>51371275
I was thinking a Crusader maybe, those have a reputation for exploding don't they? Maybe a dervish and a crud for both sides?
>>51371255
I want to start smaller I think. This is just a personal pet peeve, but I always feel like it's a slog to wear down the armour on assaults

>>51371343
the only problem with cruds is that they don't really want to close that much. dervishes have the same problem.
perhaps a crud/hunchback double match?

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All this policemech talk and nobody even mentions the Copper.

You thought it was named for metal or something?

>>51371428
There is the satisfaction of an AC/20 hit. Maybe a swayback of some sort though, to try and avoid early headcaps. The hunchie with all the medium lasers is alway fun.

>>51371432

I've legit used them as prison security mechs in my campaign before. They're fun for civvie mechs.

>>51371343
To be fair, the Cyclops only has as much armor as a Hunchback. The Banshee is thick skinned for its time though.

>>51371508
>>51371428
>>51371275
>>51371255
I'll probably do a crud or dervish plus hunchback match and then a cyclops v banshee match. Thanks for the advice guys.

Poll:
Hatchet
Sword
Claw
Tree Truck / severed limb of your enemy
Bare Battlefist

>>51370440
The CCG was really good though

>>51371597

Yes.

>>51371597
Bare fist. I don't actually know the rules for a tree or limb, and the rest are all meh. I guess if I had to pick one I'd go for a sword, I'd rather hit more consistently

>>51371597

>failing to list girder as an option

Commit sudoku.

I love fighting in urban environments with 'Mechs that have two hands for one reason and one reason only.

Actually it's because nobody ever seems to remember that buildings collapse if CFs drop below the tonnage of units sitting on top of them, so I always get a bunch of free kills. But grabbing girders is definitely next on the list.

>>51371597
>No almighty Foot

What's the point of listing melee stuff if you omit the best one?

>>51371597
>No foot+altitude+gravity
Death or glory.

>>51371930

My favorite is using lights and mediums to charge other mechs into buildings and collapsing said buildings on top of them. Risky? Sure. Fun? You bet you ass it is.

>>51372233
It's even better to use Push to shove them into a building with a random basement.

>>51362493
Why do the stairs of that pool terminate in a window? How TF are you supposed to use that?

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>>51368941
>imagine it's that animated gif of Dougram / Shadow Hawk getting all those crits

This one?

>>51371597
The limb. There is something viscerally satisfying about beating up a motherfucker with the leg of another motherfucker.

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>>51372831
>The limb. There is something viscerally satisfying about beating up a motherfucker with the leg of another motherfucker.
you're goddamn right

>>51362759
I'm not sure if it was because they wanted to move the entry point, or if it was because they wanted to include a number of fan-favorites from 3039 that otherwise isn't introduced until TRO 3050 - which some people have treated like the set year where everything in that book appears for the first time.

I mean... I can't say so for sure, but I can say that most folks really didn't care about Rasalhague until MWO made it a faction.

But as far as "In the old days" goes, Rasalhague literally came and went with a single book, not unlike the Com Guards in the Dark Age period. The 25 year update book briefly covered some of the skirmishes between the 4th succession war and the clan invasion, with a kind of "Who the fuck cares, Davion isn't the star of the show" vibe to it.

But yeah. In one sourcebook, they make the FRR, and then promptly set it up to die in the clan invasion again. Most likely to prevent Kurita/Steiner players from crying bloody murder that half of their kingdoms just got eaten up by tolkien elves in OP mechs.

>>51373241
>Rasalhague literally came and went with a single book, not unlike the Com Guards in the Dark Age period.

Not exactly right. We've known about the DA Comguards since 2005. They didn't get killed off until 2013.

vs. 20 Year Update which was just like two months ahead of Lethal Heritage in 1989.

Also
>fan-favorites from 3039
Literally only the Hatamoto and Mauler are 3039 designs. And nobody loves the Mauler.

>>51373452
I like the Mauler, but my only experience with it is from MW4:Mercs.

>>51373482

>I like the Mauler but my only experience of it isn't from BT

Well, that explains it.

>tfw gonna get my russiatech minis soon
>took roughly 2 weeks to procure the extensive list I ordered
>has taken 4 days to deliver so far, should arrive by wednesday

oh boy oh boy oh boy

>>51373674
Soon I too shall enjoy the fruits of glorious Russian mechs

>>51373674
my last order sat in New York customs for a week, it was suffering. Worth every penny to have a company of crisp, well proportioned war machines on my table. IWM/CGL need to step the fuck up.

>>51359352
>>51359446
>>51359453

Annon is partially correct. Most of the recoil of a conventional gun comes from the jet of propellant gasses leaving the barrel. There will still be recoil from the acceleration of the mass of the shell though.

>>51370194
The General Kerensky is clearly a supercharged Charger with jump jets.

>>51370342
Battletech is dead?
News to me.

>>51373674
Has it cleared customs? If not, don't celebrate yet. That's always the biggest question for any international shipment. Ordered a lot of stuff from Russia and China, and Ruspost is fairly good, but Russian customs can be a killer.

>>51374977
Mine cleared customs yesterday.

Bigger problem is waiting for local post office to actually manage their jobs (notoriously poor performance ever since they started hiring non-europeans).

>>51375262
Don't feel too bad. I live in the US. When USPS doesn't suck, it's a miracle.

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Did the appearance of mechs like the Sentinel really confuse and frighten FedCom troops? Contribute to multiple victories?

Or was all that retconned?

>>51376302

By the time of the War of 3039 Historical book they were no longer unknown machines, so sadly we lost that nice bit of fluff.

>>51376302
Maybe not the Sentinel, but it's less the actual 'Mech so much the fact that the DCMS is known for two designs at the time, the Dragon and the Panther, and being HONORABRU SAMURAI. Tactically, moving away from those two points is a big change to be faced with, and I could see the AFFS and LCAF stumbling over how to beat that. Now that the mechs are uncommon in the IS, it's not believable.

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someone should combine these two images

Can someone please recoomend some good new-player friendly battletech novels set during the succession wars?

>>51371597
Lance, none of those weapons are elegant enough.

>>51376941
Wolves on the Border takes place during the 4th, and it's a near-universally liked book. The Warrior trilogy, despite being Stackpole's first foray, aren't a bad read either, though they can be a bit wordy sometimes.

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>>51376399
k faget.

>>51376996
Fuckin' saved

>>51376399
>>51376996
Needs a crying Wojack.

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So how is this Lyran variant of the Hunchback?

>>51377154
I'm not a huge fan of hunchies with out a big gun or piles of lasers.
The 7s is to me an excuse to slap tech on a big dumb walking cannon, removing the big dumb cannon.

I can't say I've used it a ton because it doesn't appeal to me.

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>>51377143
Pepe in the Hunchie, Wojack in the Zeus?

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>>51377389
k faget.

>>51377154
My first thought before even looking up the RS was "looks like someone wanted a Javelin but only had a Hunchback available".

After looking at the RS, my thought was "why not use a Javelin instead?"

Battlebump

>>51377855

Maybe the Lyrans didn't have Javelin production and wanted to supplement it with something made locally and something with additional weapons other than missile launchers?

>>51377855
>"why not use a Javelin instead?"
Because they're Lyrans and anything under 50 tons is considered powered armor

>>51376941
Gray Death Trilogy: Decision at Thunder Rift, Mercenary's Star, and The Price of Glory.

>>51376302
Don't know how much it was retconned. The appearance of unfamiliar 'Mechs did have SOME impact (you can see that in Heir to the Dragon when Hatamotos first show up), but that passage also sounds like the ComStar author is being peevish and overstating things.

>>51379858
>Gray Death Trilogy: Decision at Thunder Rift, Mercenary's Star, and The Price of Glory.
Well, maybe not "good" in terms of high literature or deep characters, but it's well enough paced and eases you into the setting.

>>51379858

>Don't know how much it was retconned.

Pretty much fully, along with most of everything else about the War of 3039.

>>51366208
I enjoy FWL's emphasis on combine arms and synergy. SG-LRM and TAG is such a fun combination and a real easy way to put people in a bind. Do you try to take out the back stabbers? Or those Vees wielding TAGs? Do it right and you can get someone where they have units who have rear armor facing either LPLs or LGRs and LRMs.

>>51376974
Too bad the lance is shit.

Wish the Mech Manual had done a small melee rebalance

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>>51381215
Hatchets still don't roll on the punch table
Can't charge with Lances
No Pilebunkers
Extendable Blades will break 2nd use, every time
Your best bet is still going to be kicking
Life is truly suffering

>>51381352
then punch to win
1 in 6 chance for head hit

>>51381510
For a game that supposedly wants close range fights and dynamic mech melee action, the rules are really shit.

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Why do the Clans have a problem with this exactly?

>>51382589
The Clans finished with a yiff session, read the specs, and concluded that it was a silly fanservice design.

>>51381763
Agree.

>>51382589
It was made by the Space Jews specifically as a "Fuck Spheroids, get money" design intended to capitalize on the popularity of the original Mad Cat in the Sphere following the earlier success of the Mad Cat II on capitalizing on the same thing.

Also it triggers the Wolves because the Timber Wolf is their totem mech.

>>51382702
Totem mech of Timberwolf
People talk shit I'm a CW fan boy
it's like you don't even want good mechs.

What happened to the official BT page/forums?

Mad Cat III is my 55-ton clan mechfu

>>51382657
>>51382702

Isn't still pretty powerful for a 55 ton mech?

>>51382724
Seems to be down.

>>51382812
Best served staying back with paired LRM 20s in the standard config. Endo Composite makes it a bit frail if it gets in a serious scrap and two ER-Mediums ins't much of a mid range punch.

>>51384024
>Endo Composite makes it a bit frail if it gets in a serious scrap
Endo composite works exactly like Endo Steel., you are thinking of pure Composite

>>51382724
I'd imagine their server is having teething problems with the webstore.

>>51384100
Shit you're right. Haven't played much with either and my brain sees Composite and thinks brittle mech skeletons.

>>51382875
Give praise to Blake!

>>51382702
>Also it triggers the Wolves because the Timber Wolf is their totem mech.

the III is at least a better inheritor to the name than the II, which has fuck all but the shape in common with the Timber Wolf.

>>51382702
I thought Daishi was their totem?

>>51385861
nah, plus the jaguars cucked them out of it

>>51385943
Is their a list of clans and their totems? Not really a clan guy, but it might be a fun way to mess with my clan playing friends.

>>51385971
I know that CJF's is the Thor.

>>51385971
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Totem_BattleMech

>>51386024

>I know that CJF's is the Thor.

And Loki and Uller.

>>51386024
>>51386066
Those aren't really totem mechs per se, just very common to that clan.

>>51386024
>>51386066
>>51386082

I thought the Turkina was the CJF totem?

>>51386123
It was. Don't recall if they made another totem later.

>>51386082

I see.

I mistook them for the totem mechs because there is a quote attributed to them saying that if one spots a Jade Falcon not in an Uller, Loki or Thor to be worried.

Xotl, the forums are down, and I need an adult/employee to go over quirks with.

>>51386144
Pretty much everything in the DA, no? Talons and bird motifs everywhere.

>>51386123

There is a difference between actual totem 'Mechs (Mandrill, Nova Cat), 'Mechs that are the pride and joy of a Clan (Blood Kite for the Spirits, Orion IIC for the Wolves) and those that are just really, really common for a given Clan (Mad Dog and War Hawk for the Jags).

That all tends to get subsumed under the heading of "totem" around here though.

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>>51386144

>Don't recall if they made another totem later.

Well, they created the Jade Hawk eventually, though I'm not sure that counts as a totem given it's sold abroad now.

>>51386172
Annnnd I'm about to go to dinner. Should be back in 30.

>>51386193
Originally it was but a pissed scientist caste member defected to Space Jew and brought the blueprints with them.

>>51386290

Which speaks volumes about what Malvina must have been like then.

>>51377154
This is...painful to look at

>>51386332
Well, she was systematically rounding up the entire scientist caste and executing them on suspicion of conspiracy to treason.
She was explicitly Stalin with tits.

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How good are HAGs?

>>51387203
>She was explicitly Stalin with tits.

If that was true, given how /pol/ a huge chunk of /BTG/ is, shouldn't Jade Falcons be like the most popular faction here?

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>>51381352
>No Pilebunkers

Piledrivers eventually run out of ammo, and then you die. You need something that *never* runs out of ammo. It also helps if it's heavy enough not to get stuck in your target's body.

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>>51387512

baka

>>51387512
He got it wrong. She completely lost her mind after her brother died. Stalin was cruel, not insane. She's a few crackers short of a barrel.

Nobody who read Blood of the Isle, much less the later books could possibly empathize with her. She's so crazy, she makes the rest of the warmongering cockfalcons seem like reasonable nice fellows.

>>51387529
You know, for changing a lot from the original story, Edge of Tomorrow was a fun movie with good Power Armor.

>>51387529
>Piledrivers eventually run out of ammo, and then you die. You need something that *never* runs out of ammo. It also helps if it's heavy enough not to get stuck in your target's body.

Pile drivers in BT don't have ammo because they are real piledrivers, just big hydraulic hammers meant for beating poles into the ground, not overgrown nail guns.

Also, pilebunkers and piledrivers are both covered under piledrivers in BT. Just look at the old Diglord II MOD from the DA.

Were all the smoke jaguar WarShips accounted for by the end of Bulldog?

>>51387806
No. One of them became a ghost pirate ship there were only rumors of. We find out about 80 years later that they secretly hooked up with Stone in the 3070's and became the Fidelis.

>>51387806
No, a couple named ones were mentioned being absent (both popped up during the Reaving) and a few more were never actually even accounted for (but that's common in BT lore).

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>>51387670
>You know, for changing a lot from the original story, Edge of Tomorrow was a fun movie with good Power Armor.

It's kinda hard to have a feel-good movie with a winning Tom Cruise smile if you stick to the original ending. I took my son to see it, and he wanted to know why a "serious" movie invoked so much laughter.

>>51387447
Do you want to kill ASF?
If so, it's a good enough choice.
Otherwise, it's not much better than just stacking Clan LRMs.

>>51387947
>>51387670

What was the original ending?

>>51387947
That ending was amazing.

>>51388000
One of them has to die to escape the loop.

>>51387512
/pol/ likes hitler not stalin

>>51388000
It's really worth reading the Manga, you can find it online. The Novel is english translated as well.

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>>51388146
>The Novel is english translated as well.

There's no charge for the green tea.

>>51388146
>>51388163

You know, that explains a lot about the movie, thematically. Mech suits, giant apocalyptic invasions, main character starts as a complete schmuck and experiences character growth, etc.

>>51388000
There's no giant alien brain thing, it's that the mechanics of time looping, that nearby creatures are "attached" to a local alien mind creature that sends data back in time to their earlier selves, means that both Rita and the MC (who are attached to the mind creature) are forever stuck reliving the same day over and over again unless they wipe out every other creature connected to the data creature and the data creature itself. This means that, after wiping out all local alien forces, they have a duel to the death to determine who gets to break the loop. I may be remembering things wrong though. It's been a while.

>>51371597

TSM + Mace.

Because it's fun to inflict 40 damage with one hit.

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How is this for a start on the Ostroc? Basically just beefed up Shimmy's Ostscout. Is it too modern looking? Should I make it more egg?

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>>51389169
I'm trying to see it. But the Ostroc has more shape to it.

>>51389169
>>51389236
I get the feeling the Bender arms will make it look more correct.

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>>51389236
No, not really. Its a vertically stretched Zentraedi battle pod, like all the OSTs, which have never had a good artist rendition till Shimmering Sword, though the Shortpainter ones are ok.
Its an egg, on its end, viewed from the top. I'm trying to update the design, in tiny ass resolution, not rehash shit Lewis or Knutson art.
>>51389289
Yes, as will 1million torso mounted lasers.

>>51389354
>No, not really.
I literally just posted a picture of the mech that shows it has more shape to it.

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work with me

>>51389399
Fix the cockpit and give it balljoint shoulders and it will be decent/10.

>which have never had a good artist rendition till Shimmering Sword

I disagree. The Ostscout is way too far removed from the source. Same issue as the Locust, a decent mech on it's own but doesn't look like what it's supposed to resemble.

Most of the others have been great, minus the stupid beak on the Valkyrie.

new thread
>>51389445

>>51389169
why no arms?

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>>51389477
I haven't drawn them fully and omitted the layer for feedback on the silhouette.
>>51389442
and once again, the source of all osts is pic related mash up.

>>51389539
>and once again, the source of all osts is pic related mash up.

Don't give me that. The Ostroc is as close to the Zentradi pod as the Atlas is to the Scopedog pic it was traced over. The Ostscout is even further removed. The closest one is the Ostsol and nobody has modernized it yet.

>>51389539
No one gives a shit about the source when the designs have deviated more than a little since then.

>>51389398
You literally posted a retconned picture, though