Pathfinder General /pfg/

File: 359c890089f44c1c91abae7ee7cdadae.jpg (68KB, 658x970px) Image search: [Google]

68KB, 658x970px

First for I want to marry an actual person. ;-;

Second for bullying waifu posters.

Currently trying to find a way to combine Pokemon and Pathfinder.

>>45398816
>tfw when your wife loves table top, loved it before you met her
>tfw you get to play in campaigns together pretty consistently, have had characters ranging from lovers to rivals to siblings to never-met
>tfw when you sometimes role play as your characters in the bedroom, for non-canon fun
>tfw when you get to touch fluffy tail

My favorite was a genki girl human monk she played a couple years ago though.

>>45398994
Isn't there a third party class that captures monsters?

>>45399008
There is, but I'm more interested in actual pokemon, pokeballs, the works.

>>45399031
Silvermarsh(?) from 3.5 Forgotten Realms has the beguiler, which is pretty much raichu, I believe.

What's a good weapon(s) for a dervish defender Warder to use that lets me finesse

>>45399031
Why would you ever want to do that instead of, I don't know, doing it in a system that's either dedicated to pokemon, or at least NOT total garbage outside its niche?

>>45398994
>
why not just play something else?

>>45398994
I'd suggest just using PTU instead of Pathfinder, but to be honest I'd rather use Pathfinder's system for games than Pokemon Tabletop United.

File: 1277326185503.jpg (64KB, 600x500px) Image search: [Google]

64KB, 600x500px

Reminder that everyone could be 2hufag and 2hu pics are on Gareth's blacklist.

File: 9c7caeeffefcb016d8b0a594a41df515.jpg (333KB, 1017x941px) Image search: [Google]

333KB, 1017x941px

>>45399083
But I don't even have 2hu pics, or even know anybody but cirno.

>that feel when I was still new to PF and I built an Aldori Swordlord Fighter because it sounded cool as fuck
>that feel when I couldn't hit anything, did shit damage when I did, and got rekt by two bogstandard goblins


Tell me about your early forays into fun-sounding concepts that failed miserably, /pfg/

>>45398771
Let us have a discussion, /pfg. A discussion about dwarves.

Dwarves were once a beloved race, but these days no one seems interested in playing them. I suspect this is because their stats line up poorly for most characters. They can be clerics or druids, but those classes want a bit of charisma, for turning and animal handling respectively, so they are far from perfect. They can be OK at other classes, but lacking a boost to int/str/dex means they are never top teir for any of them. And while they have a lot of good racial abilities, most of them are highly situational, and their alternatives are usually melee-based.

So what should we do with dwarves these days? Is there a class I am missing that they still play really well with? Or should Paizo look into making dwarves a little bit better? Perhaps being able to swap a wisdom boost for a strength boost like they had in 4e?

Tell me your dwarf stories!

>>45398994
Preservationist Alchemist?

>>45398250
Could somebody more familiar with the system actually run a number crunch on this?
I'm dealing with a friend who I know won''t believe it unless I can show him the math.

>>45399113
Dwarves are screwed by their stats.
It's mostly the Cha that does it, the solution is easy, and has two options.

Tiefling/Aasimar style type variances.

Or

Remove the -2 Cha and call it a day.

>>45399095
The one in the picture you replied to is Rumia! You're welcome!

File: 531e69f7d8d1c6f6ae2ed026a7db61ec.jpg (297KB, 537x893px) Image search: [Google]

297KB, 537x893px

>>45399095
http://danbooru.donmai.us/posts?utf8=&tags=touhou+rating%3Asafe

Knock yourself out.

>>45399113
Make dorf girls sexy shortstacks again. Then people will play them even if they suck.

>>45399113
Honestly Paizo has just failed to do anything interesting with them. How often does anything they write have anything to do with dwarves? How many dwarf characters are there even?
Pretty sure JJ is on record as not really liking or caring about dwarves.

>>45399071
No Anon, remember that when you're a fucking cleric, healing is the LEAST important thing you could be doing.

Ethumions make shitty clerics.

>>45399113
>druids
>giving a shit about charisma

wat. It's literally a +1 difference, and it's not like you're going to be using that a lot or relying on it. And really, given that constitution and wisdom are two stats everyone cares about, unless you're playing a charisma based class, dwarf statline is if not great, then at least solid.

>>45399173
Did they stop being sexy shortstacks?

>>45398994
team of master summoners who have designated summons
it wouldnt work in a standard pathfinder campaign, as it would break it over its knee

File: 1454822801983.jpg (357KB, 1000x1415px) Image search: [Google]

357KB, 1000x1415px

Any ideas for how to get a Amulet of Grasping Souls to work in another slot?

My character is an incorporeal anti-paladin, so I kinda need it, but the party I'm joining could spare a +10 Necklace of CHA, and what with Charisma adding deflection and to all my saving throws, that'd be really nice.

>>45399113
Inquisitor or Battle Cleric (doesn't give a shit about CHA anyway) are amazing. Dwarf Wildshape Druids are also fantastic.

>>45399113
>>45399160
That's kinda funny, considering most people I've heard from in /pfg/ seem to consider CHA the least important stat (when talking in a general sense, not a class-specific one). It's almost always ends up as the dump stat, because if you're not casting off it you don't really need it. Even clerics and druids can just settle for a low CHA and work around it.

Anyway, I think you're underselling the CON boost, which while not a primary stat for anyone except the kineticist, is a secondary stat for EVERYONE. Plus, their racial traits are pretty nifty, like that bonus on saves against spells and SLAs. Dwarves aren't THE BEST RACE OF ALL TIME, but then again, neither are any of the other races, except human. They're good enough IMO.

>>45399113
I play the fuck out of Dwarves. They make awesome Warders (yes, despite the lack of an Int bonus) and Vitalists, You can pretty much play any non-Cha-based martial with them and do pretty well.

Are they the mechanically strongest option? No. But who gives a fuck? We're not playing spreadsheet simulator, we're roleplaying. And Dwarves are always fun for that. Who doesn't want to be a gruff, angry little man with an axe?

>>45399179
I will agree with this, though. Golarion dwarves are pretty lame, except for the Egyptian ones, which you only ever come across in like one AP that nobody ever plays.

>>45399191
As long as you can cast your spells as a Cleric, you'll be T1. It literally doesn't matter what race you pick, in that regard.

>>45399191
Don't ethumions get their character level to healing? up to an additional +20 health per channel positive energy is pretty nice for actual in combat healing. Not as good as a vitalist, of course, but still good.

>>45399179
I'm not sure if he dislikes dwarves, but I believe he (or at least someone at Paizo) has stated that they don't want to include any dwarven romances because they think it's creepy. Same for halflings and gnomes, IIRC.

>>45399205
In a more open campaign, handle animal becomes one of the most powerful things a druid can do. Given enough time, you can summon and train armies of any given animal you care to name.

Had one druid who trained whales in an aquatic campaign. Im pretty sure the DM just threw out a bunch of his notes on transport and ship combat.

Its harder to do if you have a penalty instead of a positive though.

File: 1431960555096.png (367KB, 428x535px) Image search: [Google]

367KB, 428x535px

>>45399279

>>45399267
>using channel energy at level 20
Kek.

>>45399279
I want a source on that. They are fine with half-people and fluffy tail and "alternate lifestyles" and magic baby-making, and Barney Thune are ok, but they think romance with a short person is creepy?

Seems a bit off. Or massively hypocritical.

>>45399111
>new player makes a fighter that uses a sword
>not even that good at fighting with a sword

truly pathfinder is a marvel of game design

>>45399295
The fact that half of /pfg/ would double-dip their dick in Lini doesn't mean Paizo still doesn't want to ever think about short races being romantic with each other, because they're all really just midgets and children. Remember though, they're progressive and accepting of people regardless of race or appearance.

>>45399335
See the above, it's massively hypocritical. Anyway, I'll see if I can dig the screencap up, but I doubt I'll be able to find it so hopefully some other anon has it saved.

>>45399287
Eh, even if you want positive charisma, having bonuses to your two most important stats is still more important than racial -2 cha.

File: True self is without form.jpg (371KB, 1280x1811px) Image search: [Google]

371KB, 1280x1811px

So /tg/ I've been sorely disappointed by the Occult Adventures chakra system, so I was tempted to homebrew a semi-caster class that uses ki as a source energy, in a mildly similar way to power points in psionics.

Limited by the pool and the physical dangers of channeling or pressing themselves, I was wondering if there were any suggestions or recommendations, as this would be my first real homebrew project.

>>45399346
Commandment 1.

>>45399191
I never said they make good clerics. I said they make good healers. As long as the Cleric ends up with at least 19 Wisdom (which is totally doable even if you start with 10, by getting at least +3 from leveling and wearing a +6 headband) he's going to be a ridiculously strong character.

>>45399002
So very lewd

>>45399388
Check out the Meditant from 3.5, it's a psionic equivalent. Can't drop a link now because I've got to go, but if you troll around the Mind's Eye archives on wizards of the Coast you'll find it.

>>45399384
I suppose its true that there simply are not any other standard +con +wis races out there. Aside from asimar and teiflings, but those races are pretty much always just better than everyone else at everything.

>>45399235
They're so underrepresented that the sexy shortstack crown got stolen by Halflings and/or Gnomes. People don't even remember what dwarf girls look like in PF. Hell, I can't tell you what a female dwarf looks like in PF.

>>45399389
the point is that a good game wouldn't make 1/3 of its characters total garbage

>>45399002

What is she roleplaying now?

>>45399492
>Hell, I can't tell you what a female dwarf looks like in PF

Shardra.

>>45399478
This is actually the biggest thing from a filthy powergamer point: outside of the Spell Save bonus, they don't have anything that makes them mechanically better than a Tiefling/Aasimar/Human jizz made race. They don't have a strong flavor, they don't have strong mechanics, they don't have shit in PF.

>>45399562
Humans have been the strongest core race since 3.0. That's not exactly news.

>>45399622
They were ridiculous in 2e as well with dual-classing. Really, just fuck humans.

>>45399562
>don't have a strong flavor

The fuck they don't. They've got more fucking flavor than your average aasimar or tiefling, even if you take the lowest common denominator of dwarven flavor and just play an angry short person with an axe or hammer who likes drinking and money but hates elves.

I need help interpreting this ruling:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/bebilith
>If a bebilith hits a foe with both claw attacks, it can attempt to peel away the target's armor and shield as a free action by making a CMB check. If the bebilith is successful, the target's armor and shield are torn from his body and dismantled, falling to the ground. Armor subjected to this attack loses half its hit points and gains the broken condition if the target fails a DC 25 Reflex save. The save DC is Strength-based.

Does this mean that the Bebilith has to succeed a CMB AND make the enemy pass a reflex save before the armor is removed or does the reflex only prevent armor breakage?

>>45399622
True, but Half-Elves and Half-Orcs have stepped up and can poach near shit from both parent races. Halflings do...stuff that makes them useful and appeal to lolicons/women/shortstack fans. Gnomes got a fluff rewrite, hit the same switches as Halflings, got one of the coolest looking Iconics and have a niche the Dwarf used to fill.

Dwarves never got anything but the Dwarven Derpadurr 3.0 spiked chain equivalent and their save bonus (Which Half-Orcs get a version of that can be further optimized).

>>45399622
It was not quite as bad back then though. You got the bonus feat and skill point, but you didn't get any bonus ability scores. That meant there was an actual choice between good stats and getting all the feats and skills you wanted.

Now humans are just default good for everything. Which I dont mind so much, but it certainly would help if other races were at least trying to be on par or better than them in the areas they are supposed to be good at.

Asimar and Tieflings just make me scratch my head. They are basically perfect for anything you care to play, although Tieflings at least have a feat and ability tax to do so. Asimar are just perfect at everything. Except being a warpriest, they they are just really good.

>>45399672
No, if the beb is successful at the CMB check the armor is removed, peroid. The attacked character then has to make a reflex save or have the armor be damaged when its torn off.

>>45399672
Save is only to prevent armor breaking

File: GloriaunionYggdra.png (332KB, 542x600px) Image search: [Google]

332KB, 542x600px

Are there stats for something like a Minigun in PF?

>>45399667
Get the Dwarven dick out of your mouth, Axebeard. In the lore and writeups for those races in Pathfinder, their flavor is pants. Halflings steal their communal ism and parochial nature as they've become hobbits again, while Gnomes have taken the tinkering Jews and Half-Orcs are the gruff, meaty survivalists. That just leaves Dwarves with beards and hating niggers...I mean elves. And everyone who doesn't have their dick in one hates elves.

>>45399822
the machine gun from modern firearms is probably as close as you'll get

>>45399822
Its called a sorcerer, annon.

I kid, I kid. There are stats for some modern weapons, found here:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/weapons/firearms/modern-firearms

I believe there are even rules for making line attacks with them.

>>45399822
Disassemble an annihilator robot for its chain guns

>>45399771
>>45399774
awesome

>>45399822
There's the Pepperbox Rifle and maybe some hi tech thing.

>>45399521
Anon said female, not mutilated monster male.

File: Bait.png (27KB, 625x626px) Image search: [Google]

27KB, 625x626px

>>45399983

File: 1452195445273.jpg (749KB, 1200x1200px) Image search: [Google]

749KB, 1200x1200px

>>45399822
Plasmathrower is your best high-tech bet.

One setting is as a 180ft line touch attack. 4d6 electricity and fire.

You could do railgun or x-laser, they attack in a line, but they're not automatic.

>>45399667
In pathfinder though, they really dont. They were a big deal back in prehistory, but these days they sit around squabbling and being depressed about how no one can re-unite their people. And since paizo doesn't seem to give a shit about dwarves anymore, its unlikely we will see an AP about reclaiming the sky citadels or uniting the dwarf kingdoms again anytime soon.

File: [screams infernally].png (69KB, 144x243px) Image search: [Google]

69KB, 144x243px

>>45399890
>8d6
>automatic

File: maxresdefault.jpg (197KB, 1680x1050px) Image search: [Google]

197KB, 1680x1050px

>>45400072
Which is something of a shame considering there is some sweet, sweet dwarf art out there. Even if most of it came from warhammer fantasy.

Retoasting in a bread: if you were going to make quickstart characters of decent optimization levels, which classes would you use? Assume nothing under T3.

>>45399822
There's a Madsen and a Maxim in reign of winter.
It's that or the chainguns off an annihilator, but the things are huge.

>>45399246
Well, you pretty much just go, "Hey, GM, items don't have slot-specific pricing. You cool with it if I make a Cockring of Grasping Souls? (Or whatever the slot you want is.)" and that's the end of it.

File: 39-capture_25082010_165748.png (10KB, 512x445px) Image search: [Google]

10KB, 512x445px

>>45400050
Plasma thrower is a bit too high tech for what I was trying to go for, at least initially. Maybe as the players level up some more, since there is gonna be shit like alchemically fueled rocket launchers.

I'm the GM, so I'll probably hash together a 4d6 heavy weapon, combined with the automatic weapon fire rules that fires in a cone and/or line.
>>45400089
It's only 4d6 since the Annihilator Robot uses two of them. Unless the player figures out someway to dual wield them.

>>45400104
How many of them? Eh lets cover the bases at least.

Druid, Cleric, Bard, Investigator, Paladin (?), wizard

>>45400266
If the limit is on T3, you could replace Paladin with Warpriest or Inquisitor. It doesn't exactly fill the same niche, but it's about as close as you can get.

>>45400104
Alchemist, Alchemist, Alchemist, Alchemist and Alchemist.

>>45400298
True, but what I really wanted was a tanky character. I personally consider paladins to still be tier 3 simply because a well built one is so damn hard to kill. I'm not sure warpriest or inquisitor has that same level of unkillability.

>>45400351
Tiers are a measure of versatility, not just about being good at combat, anon.

>>45400351
Warders are tanky as fuck.
The real kind of tanky; ones that can actually counter shit for their allies and have defensive auras and all that shit.

>>45400351
Remember that combat ability means fucking nothing in regards to tiers. The Paladin is T4, but a very strong T4.

>>45400351
Paladins are Tier 4.

Tiers are a measure of the potential effect on adventures and campaigns the class can have, NOT a measure of their DPR and Health.

Combat IS a facet of all these, and classes whose main claim to fame is their combat ability but cannot manage that are those at the bottom of the pile, like the basic versions of the fighter, monk and whatnot.

Paladins can affect FAR more than this.

>>45400191
is the 8d6 not for each one? since the sheet lists two of them

File: 1441332617738.png (626KB, 617x900px) Image search: [Google]

626KB, 617x900px

>>45400396
how is dervish defender? i'm getting into a desert campaign and figured it would be appropriate. Might take Unorthodox Method, grab Riven Hourglass, and just go full prince of persia

>>45398645

Armor penetration rules are here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1QHMSLuh7Q6ZOHYOvTS6cyFfKBBLP6RCRkb7jcO6IlrI/edit?pli=1

Well this is the most autistic thing I've ever seen
>https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder_RPG/comments/45jrlx/i_feel_like_i_got_totally_shafted/

>>45400516

Dervish Defender gets Riven Hourglass by default: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1UzzPibcqPZObXZ-IoLrd4ikiT6KWiaq92irAJHfIxzc/edit

>>45400516
DD Warders can get Riven Hourglass or Eternal Guardian for free.

>>45400390
>>45400452
>>45400408

Yes and no. Combat is part of the tier system, since that is part of what can affect a campaign. Paladins I always regarded as tier 3 simply because they can remove almost any affliction, heal themselves and others, have strong diplomacy or intimidate ability out of combat, can always tell if someone is evil and usually tell if you can trust someone, and are probably the hardest class in the game to kill. That sort of thing can dramatically change a campaign.

Now are they wizards? No, they are no where near tier 1-2. They might even be pretty low tier 3. But I have had 2 campaigns derailed by a paladin just being a paladin and an NPC missing that fact. "Hey, you adventurers, I have an easy milk-run job for you! Just go clear this cave of goblins and get my mcguffan back!" Paladin detects evil, makes a sense motive check , suddenly the party has no interest in returning the dookicky to the guy trying to trick them.

>>45400396
I am guessing quick build characters are probably going to be paizo-specific.

>>45400548
oh shi-

now if only dervish dance let me TWF

>>45400576
Note that most tier rankings have an unstated "give or take a tier based on individual optimization." So a well-optimized (relative to the campaign) paladin might very well play like a T3. But if the rest of the campaign (DM and other players) optimized to the same degree, the paladin would start to suffer in comparison again.

>>45400594

Nothing in Dervish Dance precludes you from TWFing. It just doesn't work when you're two-handing a scimitar.

That said, given that scimitars are one-handed weapons, you would be better off going for strength with Prodigious Two-Weapon Fighting, so you don't get a -4 penalty to all your attacks instead of -2.

>>45400617
I always play with optimizers, so thats not a worry with me. I also forgot to mention that most Paladin builds can one-round evil creatures of CR equal to their level early on, and can 1-round evil creatures several CR above their level later on thanks to smite evil.

I feel like if combat against the majority of enemies in the majority of APs that are made by pazio are trivialized when you have a paladin, thats a strong argument for tier 3.

Had a 12 level paladin 1-round a nightshade with average rolls. You cant tell me thats not a powerful effect on a campaign.

>>45400715
That being said, now that I think on it, paladins do have a much lower floor than most other classes. Even a shitty wizard is still a wizard, but a badly built paladin is tremendously ineffective. So perhaps that has something to do with it.

>>45400715
I feel like that's a very weak argument, because the enemies in APs made by Paizo suck.

>>45400576
>>45400715
Combat. Is not. The issue here.

What can a Paladin do when faced with a raging river or a cliff or needing to follow enemies through a thick forest while it's snowing or...? There are a lot of situations where Paladins simply don't have anything meaningful to contribute. THAT is why Paladins aren't tier 3.

>>45400710
Dervish Dance specifically won't let you TWF with Scimitars.

>>45400576
>>45400715
>>45400758
The Paladin is still T4, even if he's pushing T3. He DOES NOT have a solution for every problem, it's just that the campaign you played him in happened to have a lot of problems he was capable of handling.

Remember that saying "a Paladin is T4" is not saying "Paladins are shit!" It's saying that Paladins are good at their niche, but struggle outside of that niche. Which is true. The Paladin's niche just happens to be a bit wider than most.

>>45400617
the give or take a tier isn't individual optimization. it isn't that at ALL. it's archetypes and unchained/chained options.

SOME of those are such a massive improvement in power and/or versatility that it pushes the optimization ceiling up a tier. Think pre-nerf "Paragon Surge" oracles and sorcerers. Others are downgrades.

File: 33763175.jpg (100KB, 400x400px) Image search: [Google]

100KB, 400x400px

>>45400715
I always play with optimizers, so thats not a worry with me. I also forgot to mention that most Barbarian builds can one-round creatures of CR equal to their level early on, and can 1-round creatures several CR above their level later on thanks to rage abilities.

I feel like if combat against the majority of enemies in the majority of APs that are made by pazio are trivialized when you have a barbarian, thats a strong argument for tier 3.

Had a 12 level barbarian 1-round a nightshade with average rolls. You cant tell me thats not a powerful effect on a campaign.

>>45400535
Jeez, is that guy writing a novel or something?

>>45400909
apparently the thread got locked up quick as well.

>>45400856
Actually, if you read Jaron K's original tier list, it's exactly that. Archetypes and specific abilities are a wholly separate issue. A wizard who casts nothing but evocation spells is effectively tier 3 or even lower, while a highly optimized fighter in a group where no-one else optimizes much at all is easily tier 4.

>>45400781
You are cherry picking. The bard, inquisitor, skald, most magus, and most alchemists also would not have an answer to those situations at early levels, and the ranger, barbarian, and slayer would have an easy time with them. Later on those challenges are trivialized by most magic items.

Meanwhile, in combat and in social settings the paladin is great, and those make up a much higher percentage of any given campaign that isnt "lets go wander the wilderness."

Again, not arguing for teir 1-2 here. But the description of tier 3 is:

"Capable of doing one thing quite well, while still being useful when that one thing is inappropriate, or capable of doing all things, but not as well as classes that specialize in that area. Occasionally has a mechanical ability that can solve an encounter, but this is relatively rare and easy to deal with. Challenging such a character takes some thought from the DM, but isn't too difficult. Will outshine any Tier 5s in the party much of the time."

That sounds exactly like a paladin. They are good at one thing (combat, or being hard to kill, whichever you like), and have some utility otherwise (detect evil, good social skills, some magic). Has one ability that can occasionally just solve an encounter (smite evil).

>>45400906
How exactly did your barbarian 1 round a nightwalker without critting.

>>45400906
I always play with optimizers, so thats not a worry with me. I also forgot to mention that most CRB-Only Monk builds can two-round creatures of CR to their level early on, and can 1-round evil creatures several CR above their level later on thanks to flurry.

I feel like if combat against the majority of enemies in the majority of APs that are made by pazio are trivialized when you have a Crane-Wing Monk, thats a strong argument for tier 3.

Had a 12 level CRB-Only Monk 1-round a nightshade with multiple critical rolls. You cant tell me thats not a powerful effect on a campaign.

>>45401013
I think the joke just flew over your head

>>45401043
So basically you are admitting you are wrong now, being unable to actually counter my arguments and instead are attempting to make it sound dumb by lying and making inaccurate comparisons.

Well its not the most graceful concession, but I will take it.

>>45400715
What kind of nightshade? There's like 5 different ones.

>>45400990
Tier 4: Capable of doing one thing quite well, but often useless when encounters require other areas of expertise
Tier 3:Capable of doing one thing quite well, while still being useful when that one thing is inappropriate

Paladins clearly fit the tier 4 description better. Unless a challenge is about either combat or a social situation, Paladins are almost always basically useless.

>>45401074
The monk one was kind of funny at least.

>>45401089
I've never seen any other type of challenge in an RP desu. Combat and diplomacy are the only challenges that ever come up.

>>45401074
Actually (that specific one you're responding to wasn't me actually, but I did the previous version up there) I was pointing out the idiocy in your so-called point.

Or should I say, rather, the appeal to anecdote you're using.

The barbarian can just as easily kill the fuck out of things. BY YOUR VERY POST, that means it should also be tier 3, as it trivializes the combat encounters of APs (which are one of the least well designed things in pathfinder).

Are you gonna stand there and tell me the barbarian is Tier 3?

Are you?

I'm waiting. Go ahead. JUSTIFY THAT ONE.

Who is canonically the most powerful wizard in the Pathfinder universe?

>>45401160
Puzzles? Riddles? Mazes? Puzzle-riddles within a maze? Messy legal bullshit?

>>45400794
>Does not have a solution for every problem

Since when is that what makes tier 3?

>>45401189
Nethys.

>>45401189
JATEMBE, THE MAGICAL NEGRO!

>>45401190
They never really come up.

>>45401089
Tell me a time when a paladin is completely useless then.

Your assumption is that social encounters are a trivial part of the game. They are not. Even assuming they are, the paladin still brings a variety of useful immunities, healing abilities, and some useful spells to a given party. They are not perfect all of time for every situation, but thats not the point. The hunter is not terribly useful in social situations or in urban environments. The bard is not terribly good at direct combat. A mesmirist is fairly useless in the wild. These are all tier 3 classes that do one thing very well, and do some other useful things otherwise.

Meanwhile you have things like the barbarian, unchained rogue, and kineticist in tier 4. These are things that are actually only good at 1 job and fairly useless all other times.

>>45401206
I mistyped. I meant that they didn't have ANY solution to most problems. Which is the main drawback to most T4 classes. Sure they can sword a motherfucker great, and maybe handle some other stuff (diplomacy, in the Paladin's case) but like >>45400781 mentioned, the Paladin is left scratching his head when met with a lot of very common situations.

>>45400990
Paladins are not very good on utility. They have SOME which is why they're tier 4 instead of 5.

Tier 3 has A LOT of versatility. Tier 3 can have a level of versatility approaching motherfucking wizards - and in fact may have often more versatility than a Tier 2, BUT it lacks the sheer POWER that Tier 2/1 have. Tier 2/1 have the things that let you solve entire adventures at once. Foresight, maxed out divinations, maximum conjuration, "I motherfucking wish", and so on. Shit that's practically on "rocks fall" or gm-fiat level on their own.

Tier 3 doesn't get that, but it can do a fuckton and handles itself damn well in most circumstances.

Top-grade example of Tier 3? Aegis.
Can a paladin match even remotely close to an Aegis?

Fuck no.

>>45401178

See

>>45400990

>>45401287
>Top-grade example of Tier 3? Aegis.
>Can a paladin match even remotely close to an Aegis?

What is
>Detect evil
>Smite evil
>Lay on Hands/Mercies/Related feats to include RESSURECTION via LoH
>CPE/Related feats
>Divine bond
>Aura of Couarge/Resolve/Justice/Faith/Righteousness
>Spells

Paladin is tier 3 nigga

>>45401350
Just listing their class features doesn't really help prove your point.

>>45401287
....you mean Aegis, the class that is basically a Paladin but without a divine bond, immunities, detect evil, and smite evil?

I dont know much about the Aegis, so I might be missing something here, but at first glance it looks like its worse than the paladin in almost every way.

>>45401364
If you're too assed to look it up you're already beyond the point of rational discussion
Paladin has an assload of features that makes him solid tier 3. Paladin is not the same tier as fighter

>>45401350
>>Detect evil
>>Smite evil
Situational, especially if you're not fighting undead, outsiders, or religious folk.
>Divine Bond
A shitty arcane pool
>spells
Contrary to what /pfg/ says, spell casting isn't a magic bullet. Especially when those spells are all combat buffs or basic bicth shit the party stopped worrying about several levels ago.
>>45401385
Are you legitimately retarded? They're nothing alike unless you're referring to some other Aegis.

>>45401281
Like what, exactly? It seems to me that the problems they have trouble solving can either be ignored past 5th level, or you can just use your social skills to ask for help. About the only thing they really struggle with is athletics/acrobatics challenges and that can be said for a lot of tier 3 classes, so im not sure it rules them out.

>>45401280
Any time there's need for stealth or subterfuge or getting up a cliff or knowledge checks or bypassing a trap or...

A bard may or may not be able to SOLVE those problems by himself, depending on the exact build, but he can most likely solve MOST of them and even when he can't, he can usually use his skills or spells or simply bardic music to at least CONTRIBUTE to solving them.

>>45401436
No I mean, you're clearly under some misapprehension where the only reason people don't agree with you is that they actually forgot what the paladin's class features are.

>>45401436
Fighter is tier 5, numbnuts.

Paladin is on par with Barbarians, Bloodragers, Rangers, Salayers, and Brawlers. They're not TERRIBLE, but they could use some work.

How does one best stat the Metal Gear REX?

>>45401446
You are going to have to qualify that statement a bit. Also you realize that smite and detect work on all evil creatures right? Including, I dunno, 70-80% of the monsters in the game?

>>45401454
So, basically athletics and acrobatics stuff that is trivial by 8th level anyways?

Gotcha. Still think he is tier 3.

>>45401287
Actually thats a really good argument for why Paladins are tier 3. What can an Aegis do that a paladin cant do exactly?

>>45401525
>knowledge checks
>bypassing traps
>stealth
>athletics and acrobatics stuff
If you still think Paladin is tier 3, it's most likely because you're illiterate.

>>45401350
What is
>Darkvision, blindsense and termorsense
>Powerful Build, Expansion and/or Augment Weaponry
>Harness Power Stones (partial manifester) and Shards
>Initiator Soul (Makes you an Initiator. includes Detect/exorcise evils if you so wish that day; see Silver Crane, and also several auras across the types)
>Daevic Veilweaving (Makes you a Veilweaver. includes an upgraded Lay on Hands and several auras)
>Reconfigure and +4 to basically all environmental saves including starvation or sleepy checks
>Flight and/or Burrow At-Will, Underwater breathing too of course
>Evasion and Stalwart
>Energy Resistances through Immunity
>Extra. Mother. Fucking. Arms
>Push/Pull on attack abilities
>Expend Focus to autocounter attack
>Stat Boosts
>Fortification
>Quickened Attacks in case your weapon isn't of speed or you somehow for some reason don't have haste
>Reach Increases
>Passengers. Yes. You heard this right. Defend your friends by taking them with you
>Party Buffs and protections
>Partial Arcane AND/or Divine Casting (limited but can be changed around, see above...)

And that's just from customizations available to the basic class nowadays.

All this bickering about Paladins reminds me of why I hate tiers.

>>45401553
Fly. Get big. Carry party members around. Breathe underwater. Make himself resistant to various elements to suit the situation. Burrow. Various other crap. And he can do ANY of this by swapping his customization points around.

The Paladin is damn good at fighting, but his solutions outside of fighting are few. He has shit for skill points, his spells are mostly mediocre buff spells, and his class features are generally all about fucking up evil creatures, and little else.

Even the Aegis is only just barely T3, the Paladin is still very definitely high T4.

>>45401582
And it can do 3-4 of those at once?

>>45401553
Have every movement speed in the game, plus a whole bunch of other stuff. And they're still BARELY tier 3, if you have easy access shards and powerstones.

>>45401626
Yes, actually it can.

>>45401553
see
>>45401582
But since I was low on space...
>Crafting bonuses and Master Craftsman
>Fortification
>Damage Reduction
>Count attacks and/or unarmed as magical, boost damage
>Self Heal (separately and additionally to the methods included in the previous post, as there's quite a few thanks to initiating and veilweaving) from cannibalize suit
>Temporary HP with just a feat

And when you're missing things, if you've got a few hours to redo everything you can reselect the entire deal, OR you can do so temporarily with initiator soul's maneuver-recovery, OR you can use (for a more permanent fix) your several/day Reconfigures, OR you can gain extras for a short time using Augment Suit.

What can an Aegis do that a paladin can't do?
A FUCKTON.

>>45401626
Actually far more as it levels.

For example, I have a level 3 aegis (with 4 more Cpt gains from student of the astral suit) whose DEFAULT configuration grants him Powerful Build, Stalwart, two veil-shapes (and yes one of them is immaculate touch to heal the party up), a swim speed (it's what I need right now, recently it was darkvision instead), Flight, and a smidgen of Initiator maneuvers with a stance. I obviously have reconfigure 1/day, Astral Repair at will, DR 2/- and Invigorating suit, of course since they're basic class abilities, as well as Evasion, +2 Dex and +10ft movement speed, since I'm using astral skin form.

And that's just a 3 level heavy-dip.

So I plan on making my next character a Warder Sworn Protector. I love the archetype and all that, but my biggest question really is that I plan on taking this character pretty far, should I just have 20 levels in Warder? Or should dip into another class? I plan on playing as defensively as I can so I thought maybe a dip into another class might make me able to do a few more defensive things to help. I appreciate any suggestions this is the second character I'll be making after a year of playing with some friends and were all really into it so I'm excited to play something that's I want now that I know some options and the like.

>>45401625
Paladins can fly....and make themselves resistant to elements. They don't get a lot of terrain abilities its true. Then again they are just straight up immune to things which is something that the Aegis doesn't get anywhere that I can see.

Meanwhile, the paladin is actually really useful in social situations (albiet if played properly, no accounting for lawful stupid) where the aegis suffers, and has strong anti-evil abilites that come up essentially every combat.

Extra arms is pretty pimping though. The paladin mount just aint what it used to be

Personally I think they are about equal. There are problems that the aegis can solve that a paladin cant, and vice versa. Both seem fairly useful and hard to kill in combat. And the higher level you get, the less the extra movement types matter thanks to magic items. But you are free to disagree of course.

>>45401773
Neat!

>>45401793
The Aegis' damage boosts actually make it roughly paladin level in damage except on all attacks because it's from weapon size-up and static "all melee" (if melee) bonuses.

element-wise they can get outright immunity, for crits they can get fortification for themselves. The veils and manifesting can allow immunity to poison or near-instant curing of poison and diseases though, at very little cost to the user.

Better yet, once you get certain initiator counters... "You're <poisoned/diseased/paralyzed/pregnant/stunned/shaken/feared/bleeding/dead>" "IHS. NOPE! Next!"

The veils can allow a good amount of social.
Also aegis gets crafting bonuses, and can if need be pull out even better anti-evil through silver crane. If they'd rather do that than, say, Elemental Flux, that is...

>>45400266
I was thinking 13, or at least enough to cover the classes that don't make the cut.

>>45400331
Alchemists are the shit, yes, but surely the other Bard casters don't suck that much?

>>45402421
Most bard classes are actually pretty good. Or at least Bards and Skalds are pretty firmly tier 3.

Can you create intelligent undead out of fallen PCs and still allow them to retain class levels?

My party is starting to get low on funds and clone is still a long way away. I've managed to get a business started but deaths will still be a cripplingly expensive ordeal and it will still be a month of gametime before the business starts to profit so I'm thinking of delaying the expensive resurrection cost and allowing them to continue the adventure temporarily as undead.

>>45402550
Juju zombies, zombie lords, and skeletal champions retain their levels. Probably others, but those are the archetypal undead with class levels.

>>45402593
Oh duh, and vampires and liches of course. Any template that doesn't specify you drop class levels really.

>>45401793
The Aegis has a good incentive to have a strong Int score, and has 4+Int skill points. It's highly likely he actually can afford to put points into Diplomacy or other social skills, which will easily outstrip any benefits the Paladin gets from his minor Charisma focus. And if the Paladin is putting points into Diplomacy, then he's got maybe 1-2 other good skills, at best, and is therefore unlikely to be able to use skills to solve problems his class features can't handle.

>>45402100
Let's be honest, guy. Nobody allows Iron Heart Surge in actual play.

>>45400959
JaronK's tier list was kind of bullshit, since it was based on how many ways a class could destroy the game, more than how useful and able to contribute to an average party/solve common problems the class was. Also, he had a weird thing for Factotums.

The PF tier list is more useful, but assuming equal optimization could probably just go: Prepared Full Casters, Spontaneous Full Casters, Bard Casters, Half Casters, No Casters, NPC classes. With specific tricks (hardcore UMD monkey Unchained Rogue with Scout/Underground Alchemist, Master Summoner, Kotomine Kirei Sorcerers) a class could punch above weight.

The DSP ToB equivalents I don't know enough about to make a real judgment call on, but given their influence they could be anywhere from No Caster to Bard Caster tier.

>>45402726
>Kotomine Kirei Sorcerers

That's either something I'm not familiar with, or a hilarious new name for false/razmiran priest sorcerers.

>>45399983
I've long wondered, if that were the majority opinion /pfg/ holds on trans folk. Whenver the topic arises, I see at least a few people speaking out on how it's mutilation, no counter-opinions, and I have to say, it makes it hard to want to be here.

>>45402959
I suspect the majority don't give a shit either way.

>>45402959
Yeah that's really what these threads need, more discussions on controversial offtopic shit.
Fuck off.

>>45403015
>offtopic shit
>implying golarion doesn't have more trans than actual life

>>45402694
Actually, there's a "prevent condition" (not death though) in riven hourglass, and one or two others across some other disciplines.

Then of course there's paladin mercies, and well, outside of immediate prevention, anything can be ended with spells with ease.

>>45402959

>opinions make me sad and uncomfortable

You are in luck! There is a place just for you!

>>>/paizo/

>>45403067
The initiator paladin has a condition-blocking thing in place of mercies too.

>>45402959
I mean the other response to it is calling it obvious bait. The best way to deal with those types at times is to just ignore them and not feed them.

>>45403069
It is not a matter of being made sad by opinions, it's a matter of apparently being explicitly unwelcome. Obviously I'm not "triggered" or whatever Crystal et. al would say, else I wouldn't still be here. I just wondered if the majority did see me as some sort of mutilated subhuman, is all.

>>45403119
Fair enough, I had missed that, thank you.

New to pathfinder.

Is there a complete world map or does it just end to the east of Brevory like I see on most of the larger maps?

>>45402959
Like >>45403003 said, most of us couldn't give a fuck one way or the other. But if your immediate response is >boo hoo that makes me uncomfortable then the door is right there

4chan is not a hug box. we super don't give a fuck if you have a penis or a vagina or a combination of the two, and it's completely irrelevant to discussing pathfinder.

>>45402794
Second one.

>>45403179
the only real regions focused on is not!europe, some magical regro country, and that's about it
not!india and not!far east are completely ignored

File: file.png (2MB, 1350x924px) Image search: [Google]

2MB, 1350x924px

>>45403179
The complete world map is only sketchy.
Aside from the Inner Sea region, I think Tian Xia is the only one that has a proper map.

>>45403169
>im on an anonymous website
>in a thread about all things pathfinder
>should I broadcast my personal life for other anonymous users?

Seriously. It never surprises me the desperate need for a particular sect of individuals to draw attention to themselves.

>>45403265
Someone was trolling and calling people mutilated monsters, of course that's going to rile some people up. People just need to be excellent to each other and stop being jerks.

>>45403791

>oh no! someone is being a jerk on the internet!
>better reply by polling the thread what their opinions are

Nah. Fuck off.

>>45403791
Which mostly involves ignoring people who say stupid things and moving onto subjects that are not at all related to those things

Which you are failing spectacularly at.

NEW TOPIC: Making a T3 Wizard. Simple as just taking blasting spells, or is there more nuance into making your Wizard shit at warping reality?

>>45403955

Blasty spells and technology feats!

>>45403791
>People just need to be excellent to each other and stop being jerks.
>>45403955
>NEW TOPIC: Making a T3 Wizard. Simple as just taking blasting spells, or is there more nuance into making your Wizard shit at warping reality?

Blasting is typically the worst way to use spells, and I believe that wizards are less efficient at damage than martials.

Probably would have to do things like, 2/3rds of your spells are dedicated to 'low tier' while 1/3rd is actually useful stuff.

>>45403255

>Ameiko Kaijitsu becomes Empress of Minkai
>Minkai is approximately the size of the Inner Sea

HE CAN'T KEEP GETTING AWAY WITH THIS

>>45404052
I honestly know nothing about the Technology feats. Please expound.

>>45403955
Arcane Bomber

>>45403791
Actually, we were mostly saying that about Crystal and Price, mainly because as people they are monsters, and revel in it like a Kuthonite in a blood-eagle

File: Tien-Xia_zpsfp6mh8jk.jpg (204KB, 666x1024px) Image search: [Google]

204KB, 666x1024px

>>45403235
>not!far east

The Far East has the most content of any region outside of Avistan, anon.

>>45404135

Okay; basically, Technological items replicate magic items. That's more or less it; except most of them take battery charges or other limitations to use, or have a chance of failure, or both.

Oh, and in order to even start making them, you need both an artifact-tier creation lab of a specific type depending on the item you want *and* and artifact-tier generator to power it and any items you make; on top of bieng less GP efficient than regular magic items.

>>45404169
Nah, that one was in response to a trans-genedered character.

>>45404121
Isn't that map not to scale?

File: 1407761972695.jpg (84KB, 955x957px) Image search: [Google]

84KB, 955x957px

>>45402959

>>45404192
Okay, wow. That sounds like it's actually TOO shit. I was expecting something at least playable, but that sounds like just taking Skill Focus (Craft: Making Party Hats in the Heart of an Active Volcano) six times.

File: deadly aim.jpg (20KB, 250x401px) Image search: [Google]

20KB, 250x401px

>not naming your gunslinger tavern Clustered Shots
missed opportunity

>>45404241
>Isn't that map not to scale?

Nothing has suggested it's not to scale, anon.

In fact, there was a scale in the segment about Minkai in Jade Regent, and it's every bit as massive as you might imagine. It's called an *empire* for a reason, anon.

>>45404301

Well, it's not as bad if you can trust your GM to help you not be useless; since technological items don't have spellcasting requirements, you never have to do the +5 DC to ignore requirements. SO at least there's that?

>>45404301

Thats the problem with the wizard. Outside of 9th level casting all it has are some bonus feats and a familiar.

The class is powerful in its (relative) simplicity and therefore difficult to balance

>>45404354
But the maps itself says it's not to scale.

>>45399111
Hey man, don't feel bad.
I have a player who tops that.
Been playing for near on two years now.
He's playing a 11th level fighter.
His average damage per hit is 13.

How, I don't know, since he uses a +1 corrosive bastard sword, no shield so presumably he two hands it.

>>45404313

She's clearly calling it Deadly Aim in reference to how the higher you go with the shot, the harder it is to actually hit the target.

And if you beat Lirianne at a drinking contest she might just have you show her your skill with Precise Shot later that night.

>>45399111

How *do* you make an effective one-handed swordsman in Pathfinder, assuming you want one hand empty and little in the way of magical aid?

>>45404355
Hmmmm.

>>45404378
I guess. This was mostly a thought experiment. I DO want to play a Wizard someday, but I DON'T want to wander around slapping my partymates with my sixteen foot long wizardcock, which solves all the problems.

>>45404443
How the FUCK do you do ONLY 13 damage at level 11? I don't even know how that could be physically possible.

>>45404512
>I guess. This was mostly a thought experiment. I DO want to play a Wizard someday, but I DON'T want to wander around slapping my partymates with my sixteen foot long wizardcock, which solves all the problems.

That is the beauty of the wizard though. You can still be incredibly beneficial to the party while giving them the spotlight. All you have to do is prepare Haste, a couple of slows and watch your murder hobo melees go to town!

>>45404504
Daring Champion. Optionally Dwarven with Order of flame.

>group decides to limit maneuvers and manifesting
>are now going to limit soulknives by saying they can only summon their mindblade a few times a day and receive double damage from sunder attempts
fuck my life

File: Minkai.png (779KB, 528x728px) Image search: [Google]

779KB, 528x728px

>>45404426
>But the maps itself says it's not to scale.

This is Minkai, notice the scale.

File: Cheliax.jpg (239KB, 1276x761px) Image search: [Google]

239KB, 1276x761px

>>45404626
>>45404426

This is Cheliax, notice the scale.

From the far west of Cheliax to the far east of Taldor is approximately 2 Cheliaxes.

>>45404626
>I wanna be angry and say that this map, which was just drawn to look good and not be to scale, is actually to scale so this waifu continues to be the best mary-sue

>>45404677
wat

>>45404677
>which was just drawn to look good and not be to scale

Anon, there is literally a scale on the maps.

>>45404618
For the sake of your sanity, leave, or make the most broken wizard possible to prove them wrong.

>>45404618
Step 1: Stand up
Step 2: Get your shit
Step 3: Walk the fuck out

They're the types that refuse to play anything but Paizo martials, aren't they?

>>45404618
Retrain to summoner.

How does one make a good technologist character, anyway? I'm sure /pfg/ has figured it out!

>>45404729
They said Wizard is balanced because they can only become incorporeal a few times per day, but Stalker can be infinitely incorporeal using actions.

>>45399672
The latter, Reflex is to keep your armor from being fucked.

>>45399058
Kukri

>>45404626

Using my potentially terrible math, Minkai is (excluding the Ikkaku Peninsula and using the thinnest width from Akafuto to Hiyosai) 2,250 miles long and 1,000 miles wide.

To put this in perspective, the Inner Sea from Pezzack to the Whistling Mountains of Taldor is 1,200 miles wide by 600 miles long.

Minkai is fucking huge, and it's a modestly-sized peninsula in comparison to the rest of Tian Xia.

>>45404512
Don't use power strike.
Don't buy strength enhancing gear.
Don't improve your weapon beyond +1 corrsive 'so it's green.'
Don't actually two hand, despite having a free hand.
Don't use your Weapon Training bonus.

I had to tell him he had a 3rd attack since he'd reached 11 BAB.

>>45404512
Well the thing about trying to gimp yourself to a lower tier with a Wizard is pretty much impossible, so you need to use your awesome power to help the party as much as possible. This is usually done via wall spells, fogs and illusions that make fights easier for the party without completely obviating their presence. You can also drop your low level buffs, like Enlarge and Invisibility, on your allies.

There's also nothing wrong with having the right tool for the job if you don't step on another player's toes. So no Charm spells if you have a party face, don't do stupid Summon tricks in a melee heavy party (unless you're setting up flank buddies), don't take Knock/trap finding if you have a Rogue, etc.

Also, if they're receptive, always try to give some helpful character build advice. If all else fails, play a Cleric. You're just as good, but have a full suite of party helping abilities you can use.

>>45404820
Oh how little they know....

File: Minkai.png (672KB, 528x728px) Image search: [Google]

672KB, 528x728px

>>45404718
There's no damn scale on this map.

>>45404504
Do you care about being effective?

Because pathfinder already considers "swordsman" to be a pleb-tier occupation and "one-handed" to be the worst way to do it.

The game really doesn't want you to be cool like Flynn.

>>45404504
DSP Einhander PrC

So, I'm planning on unleashing Halloween early
What are some supplements/modules/APs to look at?

Wouldn't mind porting them over to the modern day as well

File: 1454667061488.jpg (136KB, 564x1128px) Image search: [Google]

136KB, 564x1128px

GMing an evil campaign, and one of the characters is getting cold feet. I'm looking for a celestial messenger to help him pull that trigger. Is there an angel that specializes in tempting evil into good or features especially into redemption?

I'm 90% certain if I gave him angel-waifu, he'd swap in a heartbeat.

>>45404934
You poor soul.

>>45404943
I guess. I honestly just was intending to throw fireballs and shit all over the place. The super-helpful wizard is an awesome addition to the party, but sometimes I just want to be the archetypal face-exploder. Even if it's not good.

Maybe I should just make a Blaster Arcanist and pick up all good party spells on top of a few blasts, and then just blast like a bad until the party actually needs my help with shit.

>>45405052
Dazing Fireball, Ear Splitting Scream, Scorching Ray. You can still blast, it just doesn't have to be your alpha and omega.

Suppose I were to completely load my campaign with really cute NPCs.

Does this make it better, or worse?

>>45405032
That's...incredibly vague. What are you trying to accomplish?

Carnival of Tears.

>>45405127
yes

>>45404797
Investigator (Psychic Detective). There is a bunch of new tech based phrenic amplifications they released a little while back. Stuff like shooting lasers, projecting forcefields and more importantly recharging technology batteries by spending phrenic points. Take that as one of your phrenic options and you are effectively a 6th level psychic caster with recharging tech and access to inspiration/studied strike/studied combat etc.

>>45405050
Just have Ragathiel beat his ass to make him understand good not nice.

File: 1450226906239.gif (3MB, 580x328px) Image search: [Google]

3MB, 580x328px

Hey /pfg/, how do you make a fight that challenging, fun, and can't be ended by obscene amounts of damage? Even severely overbloated HP pools are no challenge since they put out hundreds of points of damage per round, to the point that I'd legitimately need multiple thousands to have combat last for even 4 rounds.

File: [remains loyal internally].jpg (230KB, 1536x864px) Image search: [Google]

230KB, 1536x864px

>>45405050
I think Sarenrae likes redemption?

you better have one of the villain's lieutenants show up to kick his ass for his betrayal afterward

>>45405369
The answer is dudes.

More dudes.

100 damage is no different to 20 damage if the guy only has 15 anyway.

>>45405050
I don't know of a celestial of redemption in particular, but Sarenrae and Iomedae both grant the Redemption subdomain - Angels sent by those two could believably offer up redemption.

"One hand extended in forgiveness, ready to embrace the wicked in the light of salvation, to cleanse them of their sins by confession and by penance; the other held high, blade at the ready, to smite the unwilling and unforgivable, lest their souls manifest into a greater evil and challenge Heaven."

>>45405369
how do they deal damage?

if it's with volume of attacks, inflict the Staggered condition or apply DR.

if it's with singular powerful attacks like vital strike, use % miss chance.

if it's with spells, have some kind of antimagic, dispel, or spell resistance

>>45403955
So you have to put some thought into being shit, because even blasty wizards are actually really powerful now. First and foremost, dazing spell is right out. Turning all of your blasting spells into AOE daze and damage vs reflex? Way too good.

Then you have to make sure you dont prepare more than 1-2 utility spells per day. Mage armor and other selfish buff spells are fine, mass fly or mass invisibility? Way too useful. Also no summoning. Also no divination.

Make sure you take a element as your specialization school, and never take opposition research.

>>45404313
>Clustered Shots

I shiggy diggy.

File: Minkai.png (702KB, 1284x735px) Image search: [Google]

702KB, 1284x735px

>>45404960
>There's no damn scale on this map.

Straight from the book, anon.

>>45405436
The damage usually is attached to some kind of Elemental Flux thing, so it's usually area damage.

>>45405470
It's both. Singular attacks dealing hundreds, volumes of attacks dealing hundreds, all non-magical because it's PoW.

>>45405446
>One hand extended in forgiveness, ready to embrace the wicked in the light of salvation, to cleanse them of their sins by confession and by penance; the other held high, blade at the ready, to smite the unwilling and unforgivable, lest their souls manifest into a greater evil and challenge Heaven.

Isn't that kind of deplorable? I mean I'm not really going to have the best opinion of a deity if they offer service in one hand while holding a weapon ready to strike me down the moment I try to think it over.

Ah what am I saying, Sarenrae is the religion of peace.

>>45404896
So its like china in comparison to most of western Europe.

Makes sense.

>>45405641
Bullshit it's nonmagical.

Yes, it's PoW, but that doesn't mean it's automatically nonmagical.

>>45405581
His estimate is surprisingly close, considering. He actually lowballed it a bit.

>>45405581
You're making this really hard for me to edit that out with paint.

>>45405723
Okay, so can you dispel or AMF some PoW maneuvers? Because they're at the very least not SLAs or actual spells so SR is going to do exactly nothing.

>>45405641
Regeneration 5/X with DR 15-20/X+Y where X is a material type and Y is something unusual, like an alignment type. Then give it Die Hard + the Deathless feats so it can act normally in the negatives. Now the damage doesn't matter if they can't put it down for good.

AoE Confusion targeting Will requiring two successful saves, active constantly, doesn't affect monsters of the same kind.

Any Linnorm ever what with their death curses.

Umbral Dragons with their Negative Energy breath weapons.

Ghosts, etc. that rejuvenate when killed unless some particular thing occurs, like retrieving a MacGuffin or what-have you, with a really gnarly Fear or Ability Drain effect that makes the first fight not a big deal, but repeated encounters seriously dangerous.

If they aren't flatly immune, disease and poison ranged touch/AoE attacks.

Bestow Curse on death.

Greater Bestow Curse on death if needed.

Anti-magic and dispel effects to fuck up their magic items. Can't deal damage if you can't hit.

Just be sure there's a roll involved for the things that affect them, or it won't be perceived as fair.

>>45405867
The (Su) ones will get caught by AMF.

>>45405867
Any supernatural maneuvers wouldn't work in an AMF.

File: 1447460112066.png (78KB, 399x240px) Image search: [Google]

78KB, 399x240px

>Steal everything that isn't bolted down
>Execute prisoners for petty crimes, just fucking execute everybody, even innocents
>Lie and cheat themselves through every social encounter
>They just ignore necromancy, like literally absolutely zero problems with it

Fucking Salvatore has literally ruined every alignment that isn't Lawful Good.

>>45405684

Yeah, and although Paizo loves to say how eager they are to explore diverse parts of the world, we're currently on our fourth Cheliax AP and have only been given information on Not!Africa in the recent years.

Hell, the only AP that took us to Tian Xia was a case of Mighty Whitey, where the heroes liberated the defenseless Japanese against a tyrant to install the foreign-born empress to the throne!

>>45405050
Balisse angel is pretty much specifically that.

>>45405938
Liberals aren't capable of fighting the urge of self-insertion and white man's burden.

See: Farcry

>>45405664
Evil souls that are allowed to live and do greater Evil in the world are more likely to die still Evil and go on to become a more powerful Evil Outsider. Killing a man who refuses to attempt to redeem himself is better for the cause of Good than letting him live, only to grow into a Pit Fiend instead of a Lemure.

And the Unredeemable refers to Undead and Fiends. It is a mercy to release those souls to the great beyond, not a mercy for their souls, but for those they would harm or tempt unto evil if left alone.

It's a matter of offering help, possibly multiple times; it's acceptable to stumble on the path to redemption. It's unacceptable not to attempt it at all.

So a Soaring Blade Armorist eventually can summon infinite swords at 20th level.

How do I build one that will make it there?

>>45405894
>regeneration with DR
DR gets bypassed, regeneration gets shut down easily. Deathless is an interesting addition, but that at best buys a single round.

>AoE Confusion, Linnorm death curses, disease and poison, Greater/Bestow Curse
Temporal Body Adjustment

>umbral dragon, ghosts etc.
Might work if they didn't die instantly. Maybe if I filled an entire room with ghosts that they somehow didn't kill before the ghosts could act.

>amf and dispel effects
Initiators

>>45406000
>See: Farcry

I thought Farcry 3 was a satire on white man's burden and self-insertion by constantly reminding the player they were some dumb-fuck jock shooting up locals while buying into some bullshit prophecy by a mentally-deranged woman that wanted his dick inside her.

>>45405901
>>45405907
So now I just have to figure out how to have the entire party fight in a giant room-sized AMF. Well, it's and option at least.

>>45406079
AMF shuts down Su abilities, so Elemental Flux flatly won't work.

Temporal Body Adjustment is irrelevant if they're making saves every round during the encounter.

Ability damage/drain to their initiating modifier will fuck up recovery methods.

Ghosts that fuck you up when they die and come back later to do it again are fun also.

Provide incentives against outright combat, or at least to cause smart combat.

If your players are just running headfirst into everything and steamrolling it, use some of the monsters that specifically punish players for doing that. An advanced/templated Babau with its coating of acidic slime to fuck up their weapon if they're reckless is also a good one.

You shouldn't be frustrated, however, if a party is defeating the monsters you put forward, as long as they have to think about how to do it first. It's just a fact of the game that high-level characters can recover from just about any affliction anyway.

Have them run into factions, not solo enemies. Factions with greater power and numbers than they have, who investigate them, and determine who their friends are. Let them run in and slaughter, and thus piss them off.

Have those factions attack them, fail to kill them, then target their friends, families, allies, the cities where they buy gear, arrive before the party does at places the party needs to go and fuck it up beforehand.

>>45406114
Yeah, everybody thought that too, until the lead author had a mini-breakdown, did a bunch of interviews and literally said the entire plot/story was supposed to be taken seriously, no satire or irony involved.

He was literally upset people thought he was a better writer than he really was.

>>45405369
Do it like MMO boss! Multiple phases and invulnerable duration!

>>45405641
Alright, looks like something I can contribute to.

1. Su maneuvers, of which there are a great many, don't work inside an AMF, just like every other Su ability. Don't recommend doing this though because it's rarely necessary and kind of dickish.

2. Counters. Your players have them, your monsters can too. It's as easy as giving them a skill check roll vs. attack roll or in place of a save. Doesn't even have to be a "real" counter, although there are plenty out there if you want to use them.

3. Make sure you actually read the maneuvers they're using, and that they're following the rules text. If you're the DM you should know what your players are capable of.

4. Almost all the AoE effects in PoW are small. A few lines, one or two bursts, almost no cones. They're also pretty low damage for maneuvers, because a lot of them aren't actually attack rolls (see point 3, following the rules).

5. Spread out your monsters, use terrain features to block effects, limit mobility and options. Flat, featureless plains are the worst no matter who you're playing as or who you're fighting.

6. DR, ER, Regen, Fast Healing, Miss chance, Stealth, Teleportation, invisibility, swarms, hit and run tactics, all things that Initiators have limited capability in dealing with. They require specific maneuvers to deal with those effects, and once those maneuvers are used, they're vulnerable.

7. Pressure, not attrition. Don't try to wear them down through multiple combats, put pressure on them throughout the combat. Watch them burn through maneuvers, then send in a second wave. If a player uses a Save Replacing counter, hit them with another saving through next turn.

8. Ability score damage/penalties. Hard to deal with and initiators are just as dependent on their ability scores as regular martials, with just as much difficulty (usually) at getting rid of Ability damage or penalties.

>>45406328
>until the lead author had a mini-breakdown, did a bunch of interviews and literally said the entire plot/story was supposed to be taken seriously, no satire or irony involved.

What the fuck, really? Shit, that sucks, though I could've sworn I've heard about this happening before.

I mean, a situation where people thought the author or director was smarter than they were, but get proven handily wrong in interviews or the author going out to deride their acclaimed work. Like George Lucas, or Christopher Nolan.

>>45406419
>7. Pressure, not attrition. Don't try to wear them down through multiple combats, put pressure on them throughout the combat. Watch them burn through maneuvers, then send in a second wave. If a player uses a Save Replacing counter, hit them with another saving through next turn.

This is the most important thing. Martials have always been all-day combatants, generally only stopping when their caster support ran out of slots; in an all-PoW game, that limitation is gone, so you have to change how you run encounters. Speedy harriers that deal stacking damage over time via hit-and-run tactics are an excellent challenge for initiators; moreso if they have to deal with miss chances, obstacles/limited terrain that the monsters can ignore, so on and so forth.

The golden rule of balance in Pathfinder is this; A Monster is Not an Encounter. Every monster will fall flat if it doesn't have an environment to support it. Every single one.

File: 1403347980910.png (51KB, 222x268px) Image search: [Google]

51KB, 222x268px

>>45406368
I mean I could, but that's stepping into "Nuh uh, you can't damage him because I said so" territory which is something nobody wants.

>>45406304
That goes right back to AMF-room, which is doable but still kind of a logistical headache. As for the saves, again the issue is that I'd have exactly one round to inflict the saves before the monster doing the saves dies, and TBA does a good job of making sure that one crucial round never happens. And there's never any thought put into the combat, it's just combat starts>maneuver>combat ends, in that order. Plus they're murderhobos.

Man, I'm sounding like my dad after two beers and twenty some-odd years of raising me.

>>45406566
>Every monster will fall flat if it doesn't have an environment to support it. Every single one.
I can attest to this. Group just finished book 2 of Giantslayer, and most combat would end within the first round, easily. Seriously, our Magus just makes encounters trivial.

>>45406659
What kind of encounters do you typically run? Because it sounds to me like you're not taking advantage of a lot of the tactical options available to you as a GM.

File: 1382545653231.png (353KB, 853x470px) Image search: [Google]

353KB, 853x470px

>>45406659
>I mean I could, but that's stepping into "Nuh uh, you can't damage him because I said so" territory which is something nobody wants.

Anon, allow me to suggest something.

Shove more shit into the room.

These people have already proven they're big goddamn heroes, the types who eat Pit Fiends for dinner and go for Balor for dessert. Why should characters in this caliber still be fighting one or two shits at a time? If they're fighting an Orc Chieftain, include the *entire* warband (yes, all 30 of them), if they're fighting the Royal Guard then by all means throw 20 level 10s at them.

Remove the limiters on what an encounter can be and you will have more fun as a DM, they will have more fun as players, and your campaign will breath all the easier now that you have zero limits on what kind of enemy (or the number thereof) they can face.

How would you stat a half-ghoul? I fucking love ghouls and want to convince my GM to let me play a half-ghoul PC.

Whats the best +1 enhancement for a weapon

Don't need Keen cause i'm gonna take improved critical (not suffering from a feat starved build)

What all skills does DSP material add to the game? I know Knowledge(Psi) and I think there was a Knowledge(Martial)?

>>45400909
Every piece of information in that post is VITAL to the story. Especially the rapid switching between names that don't mean anything and class-based titles. Except for the part where he attempted to initiate PVP and then threatened to beat up said player for calling him an asshole.

>>45406821
If you're a barbarian get Furious.

I personally really like Glamered.

>>45406778
Usually attempts to hit during the surprise round from cover or invisibility, which fails either due to perception or just God of the Hourglass making surprise rounds into target practice with readied action strikes. The most successful thing I've done so far is dropping multiple CR 20 encounters one after another in the same combat, which is overkill for a 15th level party and they still cleared it without too much damage.

>>45406808
>all 30 of them
>a more fun GM
Spoken like someone who never had someone use riot pipes on the entire Royal Guard in an inn.

>>45400794

Oh, you're right.

I still recommend taking Prodigious Two-Weapon Fighting. Strength/dexterity/int is a viable build, and as long as you don't dump you should be fine.

Naturally, the point buy of your campaign changes things around.

>>45406821
+1 is the best enhancement, because without it you can't get any other enhancements.

>>45406863
Knowledge (Psionics), Knowledge (Martial) and Autohypnosis.

>>45401043
I always play with optimizers, so thats not a worry with me. I also forgot to mention that most chained Rogue builds can six-round creatures of CR to their level early on, and can three-round evil creatures several CR above their level later on thanks to sneak attack.

I feel like if combat against the majority of enemies in the majority of APs that are made by pazio are trivialized when you have a Knife Master Rogue, thats a strong argument for tier 3.

Had a 12 level chained Rogue die in 1-round to a nightshade with average rolls. You cant tell me thats not a powerful effect on a campaign.

>>45406969
i already have that

obv

>>45406949
1. If they can beat a +40 stealth modifier from invisibilty, that's not a problem with PoW, that's a problem with pathfinder itself.

2. You can't ready actions until combat actually begins and you're no longer flat footed from not acting.

3. An optimized party can punch far above their supposed CR no matter the classes in question. This is why you use tactics, prebuffing, terrain, traps, and other tricks to slow the party down in combat.

4. The more specific you can be, the better I can help you. I'm going to relink you to >>45406419 so that you can see what I'm recommending.

>>45401189
Nex and Geb maybe.
Sorshen and Xanderghul perhaps.
Nethys and Aroden ascended.
Jatembe and The Whispering Tyrant might also have a claim on that title.

>>45406894
>mfw the first couple replies are like "yeah, I'd have done the same thing"
That's right? You would have acted like a total asshole to the people you are trying to have fun with, and then threaten them with violence? Fucking autists, that whole lot.

>>45406964
PTWF is pretty legit. I am generally not into Dex-types, so being able to TWF with Str is totally my jam.

>>45406976
Elric, are you sufficiently awake enough to answer my question about Fiendbound Marauders using maneuvers and grappling from last night, now?

>If I am playing a Fiendbound Marauder, and I am using my maneuvers as usual, I can just try and use my Fiend's Grips to get free grapple attempts whenever I hit, right? Assuming I succeed, I can just hold them through their turns and let go at the beginning of my next turn, before doing it all over again.

>This IS how it's supposed to work, right? I'm still kind of iffy on the grappling rules.

>>45407014
kek

>>45407157
With the following caveats:
1. I haven't got much of a look at Fiendbound Marauder.
2. I avoid grappling as much as possible in my games.

Assuming you use your Fiend's Grip to initiate the strike, and the strike includes an attack against an opponent, you should be able to use the Grab Special Ability of the Fiend's Grip with the strike. Assuming you establish the grapple successfully, you can maintain it until your next turn, provided they don't manage to get out of the grapple effect via escape artist or an opposed grapple check of their own.

>>45406949
you're surprised that someone with an ability called "God of the Hourglass" is tough?

>>45406949
any decent character at 15th level is going to be able to do some crazy shit

imagine how much harder it would be to challenge a party of 15th level wizards, druids, and clerics

pathfinder just isn't built for play past level 10 or so, even dsp stuff can't shake the system

>>45406953
>Spoken like someone who never had someone use riot pipes on the entire Royal Guard in an inn.

That sounds like a fun time though - I mean, not for the inn, but it certainly gave you a story.

>>45407519
To be fair, Wizards are worse in combat than Initiators for the most part. Most of the tier stuff is out of combat utility and problem solving which they have in spades.

>>45407348
Neat! Thanks, Elric.

>>45407680
Initiators are martials. Martials are good at smashing things in the face. Casters are better at pretty much everything other than that. That's just how it's been for ages - but unlike the Fighter, the Cleric can't just buff up and outdo an initiator in melee. It won't work.

>>45406953

What was the entire royal guard doing at the inn and why were they unable to resist a 15 DC will save?

So, a wizard used emergency force shield against me. At the time I was diminutive size. I swift action teleported into his square inside the force shield, making my acrobatics check to enter an enemy's square.

This is all legal, correct? I am still unsure.

File: BvEbTnG.jpg (275KB, 900x1200px) Image search: [Google]

275KB, 900x1200px

/pfg/ what's the best way to build pic related?

>>45407680
>>45407772
At level 15 the casters have moved so far beyond punching things in the face it's a wonder they don't all forget how to make a fist.

>>45407821
i think there's like a psiblade armory thing in the newer DSP shit?

>>45405160
Basically tossing up some different game ideas; also trying to determine if horror themes can be a successful addition to games; the players are "meant to win", the amount of losses incurred, however, are indeterminate

Mind if I drop some ideas?

Does everything end in tears?

File: 7ef.jpg (29KB, 600x600px) Image search: [Google]

29KB, 600x600px

So /pfg/, here's a thought. Hell's Vengeance is about bringing Longacre to heel, right? But doing the usual evil stuff like locking up people, executions, etc. just makes the rabble angry and makes your job harder.

But what about if you bring Lamashtu Rangers into it? Rule through harem.

What I'm saying is what would people say if I worked to make this a reality?

>>45407772
>>45407824
Initiators have a large amount of in combat utility. Buffing/Debuffing/Movement/Battlefield Control, there are disciplines for all of these. In a one on one fighter a caster of equal level to an initiator is likely going to lose if both are optimized, or be forced to run.

Investigator feat question: Ranged Studied feat states that

>Benefit: Choose one kind of ranged weapon. You gain the bonuses for studied combat with your chosen weapon and can use studied strike with your chosen weapon as long as the target of your studied strike is within 30 feet of you.

Does this mean that Studied Combat is limited to 30ft., or only Studied Strike is?

>>45407852
psychic armory archetype for the soulknife

>>45407896
PvP has nothing to do with anything

>>45407867
>also trying to determine if horror themes can be a successful addition to games;
Absolutely. Horror is awesome if you're good at running it, and your players buying into it.

I wouldn't spring it out of nowhere though, as obviously just shoving players into a small segment of a campaign where there's gore and terror and death everywhere becomes really fucking jarring if it comes immediately after them just being normal murderhobo heroes.

>>45407796
Teleportation effects require line of effect, regardless of whether or not line of sight is required, unless otherwise specified (Dimension Door and Teleport don't, for example, but they are exceptions, not the rule). So, no, teleporting into an Emergency Force Sphere, which is a form of a Wall of Force, which explicitly blocks Line of Effect, was illegal. However, teleportation effects don't count as movement when it comes to AoOs for entering squares, etc. so that part was also wrong.

If the wizard was casting spells out of the sphere himself, he was ALSO cheating.

>>45407950
I'm not talking about PvP. During gameplay you fight NPC casters all the time. In fact I'm much more afraid of NPC initiators than I am of casters.

>>45407896
>Initiators have a large amount of in combat utility

but they're still playing the combat game

which is not the same game the level 15 casters are playing (unless they decide to lower themselves to it)

>>45407970
I see. It was using a Shattered Mirror maneuver. It doesn't specify.

File: 1373319005525.png (15KB, 560x407px) Image search: [Google]

15KB, 560x407px

>>45407885

It sounds kind of boring, to be honest. If you start thinking it sounds like the plot to a hentai then you've probably gone too far.

Sensible lewd is best lewd, nothing's better than getting your lewd on in a way that both makes sense and works within the logic/lore of the setting.

>>45408021
See, I very much dislike this meme. It's only parroted by people who don't play high level games. The wizard can be easily forced into combat.

Basically the wizard has the luxury of a easy way to run and not be pursued, but creating some puppet master system is actually next to impossible with magic because it is so easy to detect/dispell.

But really, try and give examples of how the wizard is completely above combat. I really do want you to because I want to argue against this silliness.

>>45408038
Unspecified effects require line of sight AND effect, of which EFS blocks the latter, so yes, that was an illegal move.

Was he casting out of the sphere? If so, then at least you were on an even playing field.

Guys, Curse of the Crimson Throne question:

Can Queen Ileosa be saved through corrective rape?

>>45408094
>but creating some puppet master system is actually next to impossible with magic because it is so easy to detect/dispell.

uwotm8

>>45408097
He attempted to cast a quickened feeblemind out of it, so yes. Well I completely goofed several rules there, ah well.

>>45408094
the wizard summons a couple outsiders and then flies his butt up up and away

(literally above the combat)

>>45408113

No, the only way you really have a chance at saving Queen Ileosa is shunting the spirit of Kazavon out of her body and then spending a couple years through serious rehabilitation.

Rape doesn't fix that.

>>45408094
Simulacrum is Instantaneous, dunno what you're on about there.

Planar Binding isn't dispellable either.

Nor are crafted Constructs or created Undead.

>>45408158
Yes, it's very easy to discover the puppet master if he relies on magic because people will give off fucking auras, and Mask Dweomor is auto beaten by Arcane Sight.

>>45408178
So you can't like, rape the evil dragon spirit out of her?

What if you prevented her from using magic and kept her chained up. The dragon spirit would keep her alive and strong enough to survive a lot of "torture" right?

>>45408062
Fair enough, just throwing the idea out there.

>>45408175
See, this doesn't work with how readily available flying is to all characters at high levels.

>>45408190
That's the issue. What he binds/creates are not a sizeable threat to any initiator of equal level. If he relies entirely on his undead/constructs/outsiders they are easily bypassed to engage the actual wizard by anyone with half a brain.

As for simulacrum, I'm not afraid of a simulacrum of someone my level, it'll be too weak to have a discernible effect beyond a few low level no save spells that allow for SR.

>>45408227
keep your magical realm to yourself

>>45408227
Or you could stop being a faggot.

>>45408227

No, you can't rape an evil dragon spirit out of someone, this has actually been proven by studies conducted in Africa with AIDS.

>The dragon spirit would keep her alive and strong enough to survive a lot of "torture" right?

Last I checked the evil dragon spirit only gave her resolve and malice, not physical might, so no it would not.

>>45408257
He can make simulacra of initiators higher than your level via caster level boosters. At that point it's just a matter of who wins initiative.

There's also extraplanar and extraplanetary travel. I don't think initiators can go, say, from Golarion to Castrovel or Akiton without burning money on scrolls - and if he's followed, Contingency gives him everything he needs to escape again, forcing the initiators to either give up, or burn through a lot of wealth.

And he'll have more wealth than any individual party member anyway. Crafting tends to do that.

>>45408308
>Last I checked the evil dragon spirit only gave her resolve and malice, not physical might, so no it would not.

I think the CoCT book would disagree, considering that by Book 3 she's strong enough to take a crossbow bolt without flinching and then pick a dude up by the neck and stab him with said bolt.

>>45408332
Not the guy you are arguing with, but this is turning into one of the many rounds of 'I shot you' 'Nuh-uh' that turned me off freeform RP

>>45408332
Read Simulacra's discription again. To create a 15HD initiator simulacrum you would require a 30HD initiator to create it from.

> don't think initiators can go, say, from Golarion to Castrovel or Akiton without burning money on scrolls
Actually you can. There are plane shift maneuvers in existence.

Besides, to do this the wizard will be spending relatively large amounts of funds as well. The simulacrum, if he somehow managed to fight a 30HD initiator, would cost 7.5k each.

>And he'll have more wealth than any individual party member anyway. Crafting tends to do that.
requiring crafting feats and thus skipping out on important metamagic feats, unless he is doubling up with sacred geometry.

>>45408332
Each simulacrum takes 12 hours of uninterrupted casting time, thousands of gp, and high level creatures as templates. If two individuals are going to be fighting where is the wizard going to find the time to be casting for several days straight?

File: 1435870683460.jpg (38KB, 1024x1024px) Image search: [Google]

38KB, 1024x1024px

>>45408526
>Each simulacrum takes 12 hours of uninterrupted casting time

That's dumb, wouldn't the caster die of dehydration by then?

>>45408476
>There are plane shift maneuvers in existence.

This is not accurate. There is one maneuver, the 9th level veiled moon maneuver, which forcibly sends the target to the astral plane. It can't be used to move from plane to plane, and makes no provision for going from the Astral Plane back to the Material Plane, nor does it allow you to go to other planes than the Astral.

>>45408550
Nah, most characters can go for days without eating or drinking unless the DM remembers they're supposed to.

Plus Rings of Sustenance are dirt cheap.

>>45408476
>30HD Initiator
Or a monster with 10+HD and 20 initiating levels; what monsters do/don't exist is wholly GM fiat, but RAW it's possible for such a creature to exist, so in this GM-less void, yes, it could be done - and 7.5k is a drop in the bucket anyway, especially when you consider Blood Money + Magic Jar shenanigans.

Castrovel isn't a Plane, it's a Planet. You need Interplanetary Teleport to get there. Plane Shift won't work.

>>45408552
I could have sworn that there was a riven hourglass maneuver that plane shifted. I stand corrected.

>>45408584
The thing is no one actually ever plays in a GMless void though. You have to go off what is allowed in normal play. Normally when you go to your GM and ask if you can have a theoretical 10HD+20level initiator to make simulacrum of, they'll say no and tell you to use a creature in the actual book.

>>45408550
You can easily go 12 hours without water let alone the superhuman fuckers in Golarion.

>>45408552
>>45408526
>>45408589

Shift/IP Teleport somewhere the initiators can't go, make as many simulacra out of Blood Money + Magic Jar + Space Whale simulacra as you need, send them back to mess with the party.

Wizards are far better at escape than initiators. Hell, Contingent Plane Shift is a totally valid thing to use and only takes two mid-level spell slots a day, and according to Elric it's literally impossible for the initiators to follow without burning cash on a UMD'd Scroll.

And if you think the Wizard doesn't have spell stamina boosters you're a chump, sonny.

>>45408584
There are hardly any creatures period with more than 30HD.

>>45408635
What is and isn't 'normal' play is hard to quantify, and your personal opinion of what that is isn't data, nor is mine. If we're going to argue RAW, you need to keep with it; otherwise, it's a waste of time to argue from a subjective standpoint.

I, for example, enjoy lumping initiating classes onto monsters, especially Outsiders, because it makes their natural abilities much nastier.

>>45408635
Fine then just make simulacri of Cthulhu, Hastur, Bokrug and every single demon lord with stats.

>>45408687
I will relent on this point, wizard are the best at running away and harassing a party.

However, the argument was originally about the wizard and "lowering himself to others" for combat. So I suppose an infinite blood money scheme to create an infinite army of snow/blood copies of theoretical creatures while off on a far away planet does entirely make the system break down.

>>45408227
Stop being a fucking creep.

>>45408726
There's nothing RAW stopping an 18th level caster from making an 18HD Simulacrum of, say, Pazuzu, or a 16HD Cthulhu Simulacrum. It's not like you need a piece of the subject. Yes, the DC's will be much lower on account of the lowered racial Hit Dice, but they wouldn't just fall over and die immediately.

>>45408744
>I, for example, enjoy lumping initiating classes onto monsters, especially Outsiders, because it makes their natural abilities much nastier.
But do you actually have that many level 20 initiator creatures running around? Hardly anything statted has 20 class levels outside of demon lords, the baba yaga, and such.

>>45408780
20th level Wizards aren't enemies for a party.

They are set pieces.

>>45408834
Baba Yaga's still only a 20th level Witch, she's just also Mythic 10 plus a bunch of other bullshit that makes her a CR 30.

>>45408838
I've never actually seen a GM allow by the book simulacrum, has anyone else?