>>45376512 He is using it because it means he inherited the title of warmaster from him.
Also because the weapon is so damn potent. It tasted the blood of the gods, angels, and daemons and because of that It has an extremely powerful sentient weapon spirit that caused Iskandor Khayon, who is a powerful TS sorcerer, to fall in his knees from its power.
>>45377227 >>im going to spend 10000 years failing to achieve as much as he did in 1 >Horus had 9 entire legions and Primarchs at his beck and call. >After Traitor Legions tore themselves and the Daemon-Primarchs abandoned them for the Great Game of Chaos, Abaddon rebuild them into Black Crusades and is the big bad of the End Times.
I dunno... sounds like the Primarch should be taking notes... I don't see Fulgrim or Mortarion achieving anything.
>>45377227 Horus started with legion and empire worth of infrastructure. Also not to mention his allies and men were not insane (totally).
Abaddon started with just three marines, one Dark Eldar, and one daemon puppy. With zero infrastructure, just one ship, With this meagre start he built a force that dwarfs anything Horus ever commanded.
It' beyond debate. Abaddon is a better warmaster than Horus. Also a better man since Abaddon retains his freewill while Horus became a puppet for the Chaos Gods.
>>45377518 If 40k somehow ever ends and Chaos wins, I want them to fuck over Abaddon and all their mortal followers. Just to make ADB cry. And because if the Imperium can't have the galaxy, nobody should have it >Abaddon finally reaches the Sol system >everything falls before him >every Imperial sacrifice and counter push is eventually in vain >soon only Terra holds, every other Imperial planet either a barren wasteland or pledged allegiance to Abaddon >basically he is the new Emperor of the Dark Imperium in everything but name >soon even the palace falls and Abaddon is at the head of his most loyal soldiers standing before the Golden Throne itself >just when he raises his fancy blade to finish off the Emperor everyone is frozen >a single Daemon appears behind the Emperor >Abaddon is powerless to watch as the Daemon destroys the Golden Throne >the last thing he hears, before reality is destroyed and his soul is subjected to eternal torment, is the laugh of Chaos gods
>>45380071 Now you are moving the goalpost and being disingenuous.
The goals of the 12 past crusades were to build up his forces and resources and weaken the Imperium for 13th Black Crusade. He accomplished that admirably and miraculously given what he started with and the nature of Chaos.
>>45380150 >Comparing the OPness of the Crons and Nids to Tomb kings and Skaven Just because they look the same doesn't mean they are the same. Necrons have proven that they have the technology to shut off the warp & Tyranids posses more numbers than Chaos could ever hope to fight off. As well neither group can be corrupted by Chaos
>>45380423 You put forth nothing from the fluff that proves your position. You are just saying he "he failed because I said so".
Thanks to Planet Killer, Abaddon took 2 Blackstone Fortresses and destroyed one. He traded a ship that destroys planets for two god killing ships that destroy stars. He robbed the Imperium of three powerful bases and weapons.
>>45380326 Daemons are only endless due to the fact that they can feed off of emotions and psykers. The issue is that the Nids don't provide any emotions or thoughts to feed off of. Now the same is true of the Nids not being able to fed off of Chaos as warp spawn provides no Biomass. So what it comes down to is who will starve first? And in that debate the Nids the advantage due to them being able to gain Biomass off of nonsentient creatures.
As for the Crons I think you underestimate the hardiness of Null fields, there are examples of Crons being lost in the warp for years upon years and coming out unscythed
>>45380970 >Pff. Abbadon hasn't even established himself out of the Eye of Terror
Yes, he did.
All most traitors outside of the Eye pay homage to Abaddon. He is their sponsor. He is their leader. In fact, if Abaddon didn't launch the First Crusade, then traitor legions would have never escaped their self destructive down spiral. He restored the traitors faith in themselves and the Long War, and by doing that he managed to make Chaos the greatest threat to the Imperium rather than some forgotten danger like they were after the Scouring.
>>45377242 Disabling Strike (for each unsaved wound caused, target model loses 1 WS and 1 S) and ap2 are far more valuable than ap3 and +1 S. You will never end up using the talon in a challenge if you are failbaddon.
Not to mention Horus mathematically can take on abaddon in 2 rounds uninjured, or kill multiple abaddons with ease.
>>45380390 Why is there always this one anon who pops up in every Abaddon threat to claim he's actually amazing? He's done nothing that actually seriously crippled the Imperium in 10,000 years. If your standards are so low that's a great success, congrats.
>>45381573 Nope, I am saying he is amazing. Just saying he never failed in what he is doing. The fluff speak for itself. If you choose to be ignorant about it, then please do not argue about it.
Also the Black Crusade were the biggest conflicts the Imperium engaged in. Each time the crusades sends the Imperium reeling. In fact, the 13th Black Crusade has drawn the attention of the Imperium so much that it crippled it in so many fronts. It no longer afford to send titans in any other conflict. Massive swathes of the Imperium are left undefended as it musters for war. 1/4 of the Imperium has gone dark, its fate unknown.
>>45380515 Are you shitting me? The first 12 black crusades were raids you twit, nobody is killing the Emperor with one ship and 2 marines no matter how much backing they get from the big 4. Abaddon had to build everything he has now almost from scratch.
>>45380468 >he had this, this, and this! And then he lost all of them. Even the last Blackstone Fortress, which is possessed by Slaanesh itself (meaning he can't order it to do fuck all).
Abaddon has failed in his largescale strategic goals in almost every Black Crusade. If he's on a long march to Terra, then it's going to take forever, because in 10,000 years he's only managed to get as far as having a foothold on Cadia. That's right, he doesn't even control the whole damn planet.
But here's the REAL reason Abaddon is a failure.
He's not Horus.
Horus was a better strategist, a better commander, and a better negotiator than Abaddon can ever hope to be, and even with half the Legions behind him, he couldn't take Terra, which is MORE fortified than it was when Horus laid siege to it all those centuries ago. But not only that, the Chaos Legions are a shadow of what they once were. Through attrition, possession, and various other 'things' happening to them they've had their numbers reduced and their skills degraded from what they once were. They don't even have technology as good as the loyalist Marines, and have to make up for it with warp fuckery.
That's the thing about 40K that people forget, EVERYONE is on a downward spiral, not just humanity (go re-read the Dark Eldar codex, the writing is on the wall for them too).
>>45383079 >And then he lost all of them. Even the last Blackstone Fortress, which is possessed by Slaanesh itself (meaning he can't order it to do fuck all).
Nope, EoT was retconned so he lost nothing. Also the Chaos Gods support Abaddon 100% so if this time around Slaanesh was inside one of them he would serve the Black Crusade.
>Abaddon has failed in his largescale strategic goals in almost every Black Crusade. If he's on a long march to Terra, then it's going to take forever, because in 10,000 years he's only managed to get as far as having a foothold on Cadia. That's right, he doesn't even control the whole damn planet.
This whole sentence shows me that you don't know what the fuck you are talking about. None of the 12 Black Crusade were about Cadia and he failed in none of them. There is no buts and ifs. The lore outright states that he has not failed in the goals he set out to do in these crusades. The 13th Black Crusade is the only Crusade that targetting Cadia and going by latest lore it has grabbed more than a foothold on Cadia, the traitor legions have smashed the Cadian Gate apart.
>He's not Horus.
Exceptt hat's the reason he will succeed.
>Horus was a better strategist, a better commander, and a better negotiator than Abaddon can ever hope to be, and even with half the Legions behind him, he couldn't take Terra, which is MORE fortified than it was when Horus laid siege to it all those centuries ago. But not only that, the Chaos Legions are a shadow of what they once were. Through attrition, possession, and various other 'things' happening to them they've had their numbers reduced and their skills degraded from what they once were. They don't even have technology as good as the loyalist Marines, and have to make up for it with warp fuckery.
It's like you haven't opened any 6th ED Chaos book. Look up the Crimson Path, you raving moron.
You post shows that you informed about the subject. Start by reading the Black Legion supplement.
>>45383079 >the thing about 40K that people forget
ABADDON VICTORIOUS - Andy Chambers, WD199
"Abaddon has led twelve Black Crusades against the Imperium. Some have been great invasions of whole Legions of the lost and the damned, others have been vicious raids with only a few companies of the most deadly Chaos Space Marines at his command. Each attack has sent the Imperium reeling and ravaged worlds close to the Eye of Terror. The High Lords of Terra live in fear of the day that Abaddon unites all of the Traitor Legions into an unstoppable horde and returns to play out the last acts of treachery begun by Horus ten thousand years ago."
The thing about Mostly Armless Failbaddon that newfags don't know, is that it was a chucklememe for about 15min waaay back when it was new. But the peeps parroting it today as canon are beginning to grate.
>>45379435 >>Abaddon is powerless to watch as the Daemon destroys the Golden Throne >the perpetual Emperor immediatelly ressurects >proceeds to fuck everyone's shit up, bitchslaps the gods and leads humanity to eternal glory
Abaddon held Cadia and the space surrounding it at the end of the 13th black crusade. He and his forces almost certainly have destroyed the gates unleashing the eye of terror itself into the universe. From this prospective he has actually surpassed Horus.
As of the 13th crusade Abaddon has actually managed to briefly occupy and utterly fuck over Cadia, the lynch pin of the Imperium's defense against the Eye of Terror. He has the Imperium by the throat now, if he manages to unite even five traitor legions the Imperium might fall completely. Not just to him and his war machine, and Abaddon knows this, but also to cult uprisings, civil wars, and all the other problems that the Imperium can normally fix or repress. Fighting his legions will mean the Imperium cannot pay as much attention to orks, tyranids, necrons, and eldar. If he does actually manage to unite all of the remaining traitor legions for a single war against the Imperium it will almost certainly mean the end. They will ravage the route between Cadia and Terra and then obliterate the fucking planet, because that's kind of how Abaddon operates.
>>45381055 >All most traitors outside of the Eye pay homage to Abaddon And then they get fucked up by the Imperium. He's not established just because there's always a new bunch of losers to hail him before they're drowned in their own blood. He's established outside the Eye when a force of his is established outside the Eye.
>>45386777 >And then they get fucked up by the Imperium.
There are pirates and raiding forces with their strongholds and empires outside the Eye. Many of them are Black Legionaries or lords who swore loyalty to him. Heck, a fallen Dark Angel ruled a system wide empire before the Eldar got to him. Hey, I forgot something. There is also an advent short story where Iron Warriors who switched to the Black Legion take over a Forgeworld outside the Eye and funnel the tanks and munitions back to the Eye.
>>45386647 >Try reading the fluff sometime instead of getting fanshit from 1d4chan. I guess this is where you tell me that the Horus Heresy novels are fanshit, since they depict Abbadon as a brutish hothead who doesn't have half the charisma or cunning that Horus does?
A depiction that is 'curiously' in line with how he's been depicted for a long time, and even more recently with the way he's described as executing warbands who don't follow his orders (not that it actually works in the long run, because Chaos is like that). And some stupid line about how "the Primarchs didn't know their place", that sounds like it came right out of the lying mouth of a daemon, is hardly a credible argument in reply.
[139.M41] 12th/ Gothic: Successfully captured Blackstone Fortresses [999.M41] 13th/ Current: Road Trip celebrating 10,000yrs of baiting Loyalists who overlook all of the above, and just bleat about how "No Arms Failbaddon never took Terra!" ... in a STATIC SETTING.
>>45388141 I'm not Carnac but Abaddon left the Gothic War with 2 out of the 3 Blackstone Fortresses he'd stolen. One was later supposedly destroyed by Necrons, but during the EoT campaign.
>since Eldrad Ulthran's demise is still canon. If so, GW haven't done a very good job of showing it.
4e: >In later years Eldrad became immensely resilient and very powerful. Like many of the most ancient Farseers he grew apart from the world of flesh and blood, and spent long days in the Dome of Crystal Seers. But Eldrad’s works seem doomed to go unfinished. In the desperate days of the Despoiler’s Thirteenth Black Crusade, Eldrad coordinated Ulthwé’s defences. He poured his consciousness into many waystones, passing them to his lieutenants to guide his craftworld’s war. The ancient Farseer led a foray into Abaddon’s greatest weapon-ship: a twisted and prehistoric Blackstone Fortress that was poised to destroy the Human world of Cadia. In a desperate attempt to stop it opening a massive gateway to the Warp, Eldrad entered the Blackstone Fortress’s psychic matrix and pitted his spirit against its corrupted heart. In that instant his mortal body was gone, and all but a handful of his waystones became lifeless and dull.
6e: >As the fate of the galaxy teeters and the Farseer’s bones slowly turn to crystal, the experiences of Eldrad’s long past show that the lesser races cannot be relied upon to thwart the rising threat of Chaos. If the Eldar are to weather the coming storm, their greatest Farseer must fight on.
7e: >The millennia have taken their toll, and Eldrad’s body is slowly turning to psychic crystal. Yet he cannot rest. As the fate of the galaxy teeters on the brink, the hard-won experiences of the past show that the lesser races will only hasten the rising threat of Chaos. If the Eldar are to weather the coming storm, their greatest Farseer must fight on with every weapon and strategy at his disposal.
>>45388588 I wish we were discussing this on /k/, because in military terms, most of them would only be considered near victories, in a couple cases they would be entirely pyrrhic, particularly the Gothic War where he caused a lot of destruction but only walked away with one Blackstone Fortress (out of 3), for the loss of a lot of his forces, including his Planetkiller, which he had to rebuild.
Then there's the fact that Abaddon is hardly the only threat the Imperium has faced, and some of those have come a lot closer to destroying it (and yet it continues to limp on, for 10,000 years), most of which originated within the Imperium. Contrast this with every time the Imperium goes through a resurgence (Macharius wasn't the first, and won't be the last great conquering hero), where it kicks ass and takes huges numbers of planets in the Emperor's name.
The Imperium still has huge swaths of resources to call upon, even in its current state in the fluff, and is still waging offensive campaigns throughout the galaxy. It's not even on the level of desperation, or defensive focus, that it was at during the Horus Heresy, yet as previously stated Terra is actually more well defended than it was at that time, without the obvious reinforcement that it would see in the event of a direct threat (imagine how many Space Marine Chapters would just drop whatever they were doing and head for Terra if they knew it was under threat), since Mars isn't tearing itself apart in civil war, and they've had 10,000 years to build upon the work that Dorn had done.
Also, regarding that tally of Victories, I imagine it wouldn't be so impressive if we had a list of Horus' individual campaigns during the Heresy to compare it against. And Horus didn't have 10,000 years to fuck around.
>>45388921 >only walked away with one Blackstone Fortress (out of 3), for the loss of a lot of his forces, including his Planetkiller, which he had to rebuild.
He walked away with two, you moron. Two. Also you gott o factor in that the Abaddon denied the Imperium all three of them a ravaged the Gothic sector.
The rest of your post is bullshit and has no reality in the fluff. Read the timeline section in the 6th ED or 7th ED. Imperium is falling apart and can no longer sustain itself and its military campaigns. You are totally disconnected from the fluff.
The problem is that Abaddon is only one of several big threats. If Ghaz makes his Super Waaagh!, then it will fuck over Abaddon's red path to Terra. If the full force of the Tyranids arrive, it will eat Terra well before Abaddon can ever get there.
Abaddon is only one threat, and maybe not even the most grave. After all, if the Tyranids eat enough of the Galaxy, the Chaos Gods will lose power as there are less souls to fuel them and the Shadow in the Warp drowns them out.
>>45377286 >>45377394 According to Talon of Horus and latest BL fluff, the Primarchs are more or less dicking around in the Great Game in the Warp and don't care about the Imperium anymore. They'll periodically do stuff like Angron and Mortarion though.
>>45380515 As of like 6th Edition it's flat-out stated that none of the Black Crusades besides maybe the first one were drives on Terra. On some of them he didn't even bother Cadia. Also the 13th I guess.
>>45384866 As I've said I'm an Imperial fanboy, but if the Emperor is killed before humanity reaches their psychic evolutionary peak then all of reality will be destroyed and replaced with Chaos. Or maybe the Sol system just becomes a new Eye of Terror, presumably if there are too few humans left.
>>45385367 >implying the Imperium won't find, secure and then weaponize the Omnicopaeia correctly The 13th Black Crusade will be broken by the second Golden Crusade where every human is a strong and incorruptible psyker.
>>45389092 That's true, but isn't the Imperium still almost the largest it has ever been? They can still use scorched Earth tactics and start withdrawing their forces to consolidate their strenght.
Not even close, they had almost two million worlds taken by the end of the Great Crusade, the figure we see for "modern" 40k is about a million.
That's not counting the rapid crumbling at the end of the timeline. Segmentum Pacificus has been lost from the astropathic network and the great psychic awakening has led to thousands of worlds being lost to daemonic incursions.
>>45392033 > Great Crusade >two million worlds hmm interesting can sauce that ? all i remember in HH is "Triumphs are raised on a million worlds to record the epic deeds of his most powerful and deadly warriors."
>>45381084 >pic related Also it's important to remember that the Crons (along with the old ones) effectively created the warp as it is today. If they made it it should be possible that it can be un-made.
>>45391328 It's (pre-ADB) codex fluff too: >The most infamous Daemon Princes come from amongst those Primarchs who sided with Chaos during the Horus Heresy. These are the Primarchs who turned on the Emperor and led their Legions into damnation. Yet for all of the Imperium's hatred levelled at them by the Inquisition, the Daemon Primarchs Angron, Magnus, Mortarion and Fulgrim are content to wage wars against their enemies within the Eye of Terror. It is almost unheard of for them to lead forth their warriors from their Daemon worlds, preferring to leave such petty tasks to favour-seeking, fanatical underlings.
>>45391378 This was something that was apparent beforehand as well - the 3rd edition map showing the paths taken by the Black Crusades, about half of which moved AWAY from the world(s) people claim he was trying to conquer; the only Black Crusade fleshed out prior to the 13th clearly not being about Cadia or Terra at all; the fluff going back to the first Chaos codex saying that some Black Crusades were raids with only a few companies, and that Abaddon has spent the millennia gathering the power he needs to finish the Long War, but not that any individual crusade out of the first 12 was intended to accomplish that goal in one go.
>>45377327 >With this meagre start he built a force that dwarfs anything Horus ever commanded. Hell no. That is just GW being retarded as usual. Horus had around HALF THE IMPERIAL ARMY, HALF THE MECHANICUS AND HALF THE LEGIONS. Abaddon may rule over countless mutants and traitors, but that is a drop in the ocean compared with turning half a pangalactic empire against himself.
>Although the Deamon Primarch are perhaps the most infamous and adhorred Deamon Princes, there are a few who are older and even more powerful.
Be'lakor's dataslate says he's the oldest and most powerful daemon prince. His rules don't reflect it though (Angron, Samus and Cor'bax have it better) but apparently he's pulled a Sauron, lost his objects of power and is manipulating Admech to search and return them to him.
>>45391310 urh i think BL count more normal troop, ship, deamon also there alot of renegade marine and other traitor marine can join BL too >>45394682 Abby had alot conections with deamon and tons of relic like blackstone fortress also most Abby tech is deamon fuse now
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