Is it just me or were most of the traitor primarchs victims of circumstance?
Fulgrim was possessed by a demon sword, made to kill his boyfriend, then date-raped into joining Chaos.
Pert was the Emperor's blatant unfavorite, always overshadowed by Dorn no matter how hard he tried, and he was FUCKING PISSED about it.
Curze was legit insane.
Angron was a slave, got severely dicked over by the Emperor, also borderline mentally retarded because nails.
Mortarion was ALSO fucked over by the Emperor. I'm starting to think this was all in fact Emps' fault.
Magnus was already pretty hated after Nikea, and had already been fucking around with forbidden sorcery, and then the whole Prospero shitshow happened and he was reasonably pissed. He even tried to warn the Emperor of what was going on, for which he was rewarded with even more hate.
Lorgar got rekt when the Emperor went full fedora.
We don't know much of what happened with Alpharius, but based on the pattern here I'm assuming Emperor dickery had something to do with it. He might not even have actually been traitor, either!
Only one actually just being a dick was Horus himself.
>Fulgrim was possessed by a demon sword, made to kill his boyfriend, then date-raped into joining Chaos.
Who the fuck goes around taking spooky evil swords? I'll admit the Emperor should have fucking smacked him around for this but it's partly the idiots own fault.
>Pert was the Emperor's blatant unfavorite, always overshadowed by Dorn no matter how hard he tried, and he was FUCKING PISSED about it.
Fair enough, but this is also the matter of conquering the entire fucking galaxy. Your petty grievences are not important. The Emperor is his commanding officer, he will do as he is ordered. Just Pert expects his own men to do.
>Curze was legit insane.
Should have been put down, or at least given some competent psychiatric care.
>Angron was a slave, got severely dicked over by the Emperor, also borderline mentally retarded because nails.
See above, but just put down. Though his whole story is just bad writing.
>Mortarion was ALSO fucked over by the Emperor. I'm starting to think this was all in fact Emps' fault.
>Magnus was already pretty hated after Nikea, and had already been fucking around with forbidden sorcery, and then the whole Prospero shitshow happened and he was reasonably pissed. He even tried to warn the Emperor of what was going on, for which he was rewarded with even more hate.
Magnus was the most prideful motherfucker in the entire Heresy. He willfully went against orders over and over again just because he thought he knew better. The Emperor could have explained better, sure, but ultimately Magnus shouldn't have done it either way.
>Lorgar got rekt when the Emperor went full fedora.
Lorgar should have been put down too. He was ultimately the anti-thesis of everything the Emperor stood for and was probably not even meant to be alive or something.
>We don't know much of what happened with Alpharius.
Alpharius never met the Emperor until he had already been working for Horus.
Angron lived. That's what he did wrong. He should have taken a chain axe to his own head.
Though, ultimately the true villains are the writers who penned his idiotic and completely lore-shatteringly stupid origin story.
Senpai would've turned out just fine if I could have him.
Magnus did nothing wrong.
Sometimes I wonder if the true ' just as planned' isn't like the result of multiple of these, all over the galaxy, conflicting between themselves.
This would put the Great Game not like a chess board (or other strategy game), but as a wheel of Fortune.
Tzeentch is directly stated to scheme against himself constantly, and anyone who thinks he has a goal beyond causing a ruckus is an idiot.
He plays people constantly by convincing them they can outwit his plans, but it doesn't matter because at the end of the day if someone is scheming he wins.
This basically would put him as the wheel-master, taking his share no matter what happens in the game.
Precisely. At the end of the day, the only person that Tzeentch is playing against is Nurgle. And that's a game that's been going on far longer than any of the factions in the setting can imagine.
It's almost like the Horus Heresy series is a terribly-written piece of shit with half the authors trying to one-up each other on "here's a twist: the Emperor is actually retarded!" making it worse and worse with each successive book until you get 400-page explanations of every primarch being a complete dindu and the Emperor being substantially more idiotic with every story they revisit.
>his idiotic and completely lore-shatteringly stupid origin story.
Wasn't Angron's deal always a) he was insane with Nails-Rage and b) pissed that he was just picked up alone, with his army left to die?
Yes, and the Emperor was supposed to be smart. What in the fuck could the 2 missing primarchs have done that was somehow worse than literally being a ticking time bomb? And if, as the HH explanation goes, his warriors were corrupted by Khorne because of the nails why would the Emperor not put his foot down and stop Angron from making his legion have them too? Why couldn't the Emperor remove the nails? He literally never inspects them himself. He has some random apothecary do it.
The whole thing makes the Emperor seem like a colossal retard and makes Angron less sympathic because ultimately he should have known to either a) not put the nails in his sons heads and/or b) kill himself because he knew they would ultimately lead him to insanity.
>Who the fuck goes around taking spooky evil swords?
It was a huge part of Emperor's Children culture. When presented with a unique melee weapon, wielded by their enemies they take that weapon and practice with it until they have surpassed the original owner in skill. The EC had done this with dozens of weapons previously.
It was a thing the Emperor had a real understanding of, and he didn't share it with anyone or bother with any amount of oversight among even one of his most favorite sons. Because bad writing.
The Emperor could have given the sword one fucking look and told Fulgrim it had to go, but didn't for reasons.
The Emperor was busy on the opposite side of the galaxy making sure humanity didn't have to rely on warp travel. Besides, the idea that he was a real father to any primarch other than Horus really doesn't have any support. He was a creator to the others. He spent some time with some of them, but Horus was the only one he actually fathered. The others were always tools to do as they were told.
Angron's origin story has always been the shoddiest of the primarchs. Like, it's so half-assed that in the original IA articles it's the only one that doesn't even come up with a name for his homeworld (the only other one who doesn't have a homeworld named is Alpharius, but for him it's a deliberate choice) and it leaves a lot of shit half-baked. Like why the Emperor doesn't even offer to save Angron's army, saves him anyway, then apparently just discards him. Even Mortarion wasn't treated that bad.
The Khornate theory is a halfway decent attempt to explain things, but it's fan theory and supposition.
Honestly the better way to write it would have just been for the Emperor to show up too late - all of Angron's friends get slaughtered but he's still alive because literally nothing his former slavemasters have in their arsenal could take him down. Emps "rescues" him but by now he's just bitter and angry and nothing the Imperium has to offer him holds his interest compared to just losing himself in a fight.
But no, much better to blame dad for screwing up literally everything and turn Angron into a tumblrina who screams "CHECK YUR PRIVILEGE" at other primarchs.
No anon, none of the Primarchs besides Angron had justified falls. Thanks to the writers of being retarded, everybody else behaves like a fucking retarded child. There are five year old children legitimately more intelligent than Horus as they would have seen through Erebus' shitshow.
Hmm. Here's my idea of Tzeentch's Great Plan:
> Slaanesh, the god of excess, was born out of the Eldar's excessive debauchery
> Nurgle was born out of excessive amounts of life in the galaxy
> Khorne was born out of ancient humanity's tribal warring
> Tzeentch was born out of the Renaissance and Enlightenment eras of human history, times of advancement
Like the other gods, Tzeentch must represent the thing he was made from. The goal of Tzeentch's Great Plan, therefore, is to make humanity win. Tzeentch's smaller, conflicting Plans have been expertly thought out and will result in a win for humanity if executed like Tzeentch hopes.
Fulgrim was dumb enough to loot a daemon sword
Pert was completely incompetent and mad as fuck about it
Curze didn't really have a chance, yes
Angron fucked up right from the start by being weak enough to get captured
Mortarion almost remained loyal, and was mainly dicked by typhus
Magnus wanted to prove sorcery was the best despite a rather obvious warning
Lorgar got butthurt when he was told to do his job
Alpharius went largely because he wanted to prove he was better than guilliman and dorn
Horus either had a crisis of faith or was turned by Erebus. He's arguably a victim of circumstance, but a bit thick to think the Emperor didn't trust or respect him much.
>Tzeentch was born out of the Renaissance and Enlightenment eras of human history, times of advancement
>Khorne was born out of ancient humanity's tribal warring
That's wrong though.
>Fulgrim was dumb enough to loot a daemon sword
And that's why you never skimp on Will day.
The current way has it that the world, assholish as it was, was a fairly good planet to bring into the imperium - the leaders bowed down and complied, they had fairly advanced technology and manufacturing, they were willing to give the tithe etc. and so really weren't worth slaughtering just for a primarch (especially one that was brain damaged) who could just be removed instead
When Angron finds out he leaves it a smoking cinder, of course
>by being weak enough to get captured
After killing a load of eldar with his bare hands he was wounded enough that the archeotech-equipped slavers were able to capture him.
That's hardly weak
I'm pretty entertained by it. Was nice seeing the Primarchs fleshed out and has a lot of great side characters. Lots of books are hit and miss, though.
A lot of people here are just bitter oldfags who wanted all descriptions of the Heresy to be 2 paragraphs long for "muh mystery".
>who wanted all descriptions of the Heresy to be 2 paragraphs long for "muh mystery".
That's quite possible.
I'm just sad any chance of the rainbow warriors and Valedictors getting there first founding status back is pretty much gone.
Re: Pertuabo -
His fall was arranged. Horus purposefully sent him into the grinder again and again and denied him lauds because he knew it would make Pertuabo resent the Emperor. His fall was arranged by Horus, much like Fulgrims.
>the traitor primarchs were all whiney children crying for attention from daddy.
The ones who remained loyal for the most part also had shitty childhoods but were able to grow the fuck up and be responsible semi-functional adults.
The explanations of the Primarch falls were good enough when they were references to ancient, mythical events involving larger than life characters with the specifics inconceivable to mortal minds.
Index Astartes was the halcyon days of lore. WHY DO THINGS CHANGE? I WANT MY CHILDHOOD BACK etc.
There are so many holes in everything about 40k that discussing "why so and so is an idiot" or "why such and such is so shit" is a task I can imagine the Imperium dedicating millions of lobotomised prisoners to tonguelessly debate.
Discussing 40k is in and of itself grimdark.
Ferrus Manus asked that of them. Other augmentations were because vatgrown limbs took too long to make and attach, so they used the faster cybernetic augments to get back to the battle sooner.
Except humanity created none of the Chaos Gods. They already existed before they left Terra, and you cannot seriously believe that just a few billion humans would have any effect when there's a giant interstellar Eldar Empire out there.
Daily reminder that Alpharius did nothing wrong.
"Everything I do from this point forward, I do for the Emperor.
>The mon'keigh actually believed me when I told him he had to even the odds in this civil war to save his species!
Except they did. Blame poor writing, but Nurgle, Khorne and Tzeentch are credited as being spawned from major events in humanity's history.
Of course the nature of the Warp says FUCK YOU! to time and space, so they existed before that, but regardless...
Wrong. He was given sentience by the Black Plague.
Also wrong. He started thinking with his rageboner because of the Crusades. (How he recruited Doombreed beforehand, beats me, but whatever.)
Third strike! Get the fuck out of here, Loyalist. Tzeentch was given sentience from the Machiavellian schemes of that era, not it's advancements.
Seriously, bro read the lore before you go posting stupid shit.
Keep laughing, faggot. You remember it wrong.
>Side with the Emperor and he will win, but Chaos will eventually murderfuck the galaxy and the big E, killing EVERYBODY, humanity and Xenos alike.
>Side with Horus and he will win, bringing a quick rise and fall of Chaos, burning it, and humanity out but saving the rest of the galaxy.
As it's a lose/lose for humanity, AO stepped up like the alpha he is, and picked neither of the options. Sided with Horus, but purposely doing shit all during the Heresy so the Warmaster would still lose, throwing humanity into it's stagnant, but alive, state that it is.
Alpharius Omegon is the hero the Imperium needs, not the one it deserve.
Slaanesh comes into being at a specific point in time, but chaos is immortal and eternal.
This specifically doesn't make sense, but hey, chaos.
For the rest of the universe, and for causality, a kind of dormancy is implied, from at least the end of the Old One's war with the necrons, where they had been using the warp for war and got it all unstable
Your "poor writing" is Realms of Chaos-era garbage that's been ret-conned since the first Necron codex. Explain the fact that the chaos gods existed during the War in Heaven because the Old Ones wanted their creations psychically attuned to the warp.
But he didn't. Did you even read my post? He picked neither of the options they presented to him in their prophecy, basically telling them to fuck off.
He trusted the Elves to be selfish pricks and try to cover their own asses, but Alpharius was looking out for the Big E and humanity and ended up making the Cabal's Prophecy bunk as neither one of the two humanity ending paths came to be.
But really, he should have fucking killed them all, he had the drop.
Eh, the Emperor was trying to have his cake and eat it too - he got a primarch and a mostly untouched high tech subservient planet by doing what he did, so you can see the sense, though in the long run it's a clear mistake - though had the rest of the heresy not happened it'd probably just be Angron either rebelling and losing, or dying from his nails
The Emperor is not a father. He is the Emperor of Mankind. The Great Crusade to unite every human planet as quickly as possible, the human Webway, tooling up every planet for war, keeping Chaos a secret, banning religion,.. were all his plans on how to weaken Chaos, so humanity would have an easier time evolving their psychic potential. He wasn't flawless, but his biggest fuckup was trusting that his super/post human generals would also trust him, the greatest human psyker ever with millennia of knowledge, back or at least follow their orders. Some, like Guiliman or Corax, realized this and followed him. Others, mostly the traitor primarchs acted like manchildren.
>Alpharius turning because Guiliman was being a meanie to him while Horus wasn't
>Angron turning because the Emperor didn't save his soldiers, no other explanation
Don't act like they weren't just stupid ass pulls. HH at least tries to justify their ass pulls.
I like to think it's the other way around to make it less insanely stupid. The Black Plague didn't birth Nurgle, but the Plague was the form the aftershock of Nurgle's awakening took on Terra.
But he still turned against humanity and weakened it forever. The "Chaos will win if the Emperor wins" is blatant bullshit. He may have thought he outsmarted them, but in the end he crippled humanity forever and allowed the xenos to continue existing with humanity too distracted to wipe them out. I'd consider it a job well done if I were a Space Elf.
>Option A: Everyone dies
Straight loss for the Eldar
>Option B: Humanity and Chaos die
Glorious victory for Eldar, time to rebuild the empire
>Option C: Humanity becomes stagnant, Chaos lives
Eldar are stuck on the verge of extinction with their only feasible "victory" plan involving genociding their entire race to spawn a death god. I don't know what you call a job well done, but that option does not work out well for the space elves.
Also, the Cabal had only one Eldar in it. The rest were dirty Xenos and traitors who wanted to see humanity fall still, but don't go crediting that whole debacle as an Eldar win.
You're really not grasping the "FUCK YOU, LOGIC" nature of the warp. Just as the big 4 gained sentience off of other events much later, they existed in the Warp long before the War in Heaven, even if it's their "starting point."
>be almost 40k old posthuman being that is the strongest psyker ever
>also a union of thousands of shamans
>create 20 posthuman super soldiers to be the generals that will lead your armies to secure the future of humanity
>expect them to be fully devoted to his task as you are
>expect them to follow you as your sons, or if they aren't happy with it, at least follow your orders
>don't have the time to babysit their feelings because you have to save humanity
The Emperor made the primarchs too human. That was his biggest mistake.
Why are you assuming that anything they said was true? It's hardly in their best interest to inform Alpharius if they knew of a future where humanity just wins. Maybe the real options were:
>Option A: Emperor victorious, humanity rules the stars forever more and the xenos all die.
>Option B: Chaos victorious, everyone dies.
>Option C: Chaos barely defeated, humanity reduced to stagnation and relative impotence, xenos continue existing.
Who can say? We hardly have any means of checking if what they said would have come to pass if Chaos or the Emperor won as neither option happened. What's for sure is that these cunts did not have humanity's best interests at heart. So why would you believe that their version of events isn't just what they believe is most likely to get Alpharius to do what they need from him, i.e. even the odds so neither the traitors nor the loyalists can achieve a total victory?
Eldar are fags, it's always their fault. They probably just got some other xenos in there to make it less blatantly obvious that it was just them fucking with humanity for the billionth time.
This. It's honestly ridiculous that the rank and file Space Marines seem more detached than the Primachs are.
But to be fair, Chaos pretty much stole them away just before the Big E could start working on their minds instead of the body. Had things gone according to keikaku, they would have been raised and conditioned like the generations of SPESS that was later spawned from their neck-loins, and every single one of them would be a vastly different creature.
Mankind was far too unimportant to give birth to any chaos god.
There're literally thousands of intelligent races in the 40k universe, everyone of them can feed the dark gods, and for quite a while humanity was too small to contribute much.
Your argument is just devolving into the /tg/ meme of elf-hate. Stop it. The Eldar are not the Cabal, there was one Eldar member and he was pointedly against involving Alpharius, or any humans in their schemes, but the other Xenos told him to shut the fuck up and just farsee shit for them.
And they didn't just tell him about it, they showed him the Farseeing prophecy. You don't get to photoshop that shit before it's presented. It was the two most likely outcomes of the Cabal's meddling in the situation. They saw victory or defeat, so what they WANTED of Alpharius is for him to pick Option B and let humanity die but let the Xenos live, as he was the most recent and least indoctrinated into the Emperor's xenophobic mindset.
Of course, knowing they didn't have humanity's best interest in mind, AO, forged his own path into the future, creating a pretty shitty future for humanity, but a future none the less.
>Eldar have next to nothing to do with the Cabal beyond one farseer being it's bitch
>AO did what he thought was best for humanity and the Emperor
Cabal was manipulating the Alpha Legion. They didn't want the Imperium to win without losses, so they hoped to make sure their victory would be a Pyrrhic one. But if ADB and his Chaos propaganda are to be believed, Cabal themselves were unknowingly working for Chaos, who planned and wanted for Horus to fail.
But it doesn't even matter what Cabal believed. Alpharius and Omegon were presented with two options, either join with the Emperor and allow humanity to stagnate and eventually destroy itself after a pathetic existence, or join with Horus to destroy humanity, but with this save it from a horrible failure and make the galaxy a better place for everyone else at the same time.
I haven't read the latest HH books, but one of the last ones I read had one of the primarchs jettisoning the Cabal emissary into space. So as far as I know, Alpha Legion hasn't yet played their hand and are bidding their time playing off both sides. My speculation is that they both back up Horus while fucking with the Cabal, believing that he would be a better option as a ruler of humanity than the Emperor. But once Chaos starts showing it's hand, one of them decides to return to the Emperor. Either he gets killed before he can act, or decides to help the Imperium in secret. The other one stays with Horus, but hopes to fuck over Chaos after they win. But the traitors fail and fuck off to the Eye of Terror, fully embracing Chaos. To make it even more grimdark, the traitor primarch gets killed by Guiliman.
So in the end it doesn't even matter what Alpharius and Omegon were planning in secret. Both are lost to their Legion, the majority of which was only on need to know basis and on orders to fight for Horus. Horus might have been killed, but his followers embraced Chaos, some more than other. And so the Alpha Legion did the same.
Unfortunately that's one of the less fleshed out times. We go from Primarchnapping to GREAT CRUSADE in under 2 sentences.
They may have originated in the War in Heaven, but gained sentience from humanity's shitty emotions.
You don't get to photoshop, but they didn't have to show him everything. Who says these were the most likely futures? Perhaps they were both incredibly unlikely and specifically chosen to manipulate him. I mean, they didn't even show him the future that actually came to pass due to his actions, so who knows how many options there really were? Again, I don't see a reason to trust a word they say. Alpharius
Those books are 25 years old at this point and no one, not even the authors, give a shit about them. They'll never be referenced again. Just like marines as space cops will never be referenced again.
Why did GW make the Emperor this much of an idiot? Really, they could have made him the "busy father" instead of a dick. Really, teleporting Angron without his friends, instead of using the occasion to join forces, show off and appear even better? Not giving Curze some psychiatric help? Having favourites? Going all "I'll explain one day, not now" on everyone?
>but one of the last ones I read had one of the primarchs jettisoning the Cabal emissary into space
That's how every Legion approached responded, except for the 20th. It's why the Cabal tried manipulating them until Alpharius teleported Omegon and a fuckton of Terminators into their HQ to make them talk straight.
The Cabal thought that Humanity was bloodthirsty, yes. But most of them didn't actively seek it's destruction, even letting humans join the Cabal because it had a "higher purpose" of defeating Chaos, what they saw as the greatest threat. It's also how they kept their Farseer in line despite his hatred of humans.
Then, after being presented the two losing options for humanity, Alpharius knowingly turned traitor but refused to help Horus, even going so far as to actively work against him, making Horus divert troops to garrison no-name planets with no tactical value. "The devil will not be mocked."
Alpharius and Omegon were always working towards the benefit of the Emperor and humanity. Alpharius blatantly said so in the confident company of Omegon and his two highest ranking officers, to whom he has no need to lie or omit truths.
Of course, like you said, the other 98% of the Alpha Legion was on need to know. So when Guiliman kills (probably not actually) Alpharius, things go to shit with most of them believing their mission of going traitor to be the real intention. It's why the Alpha Legion probably has more splintered warbands than any other traitor legion.
>Then, after being presented the two losing options for humanity, Alpharius knowingly turned traitor but refused to help Horus, even going so far as to actively work against him, making Horus divert troops to garrison no-name planets with no tactical value. "The devil will not be mocked."
We don't know if that's why he did it or if it's just a representation of Alpharius's hubris. Because despite all the bitching about Legion and the people screaming, "My Alpharius did things just to prove he could!" We see this nature when he gloats over the Iron Hands for fooling them and in the example you mention.
Angron was a logical move.
>Gain a Primarch, and compliant fully structured planet that has their shit together with a standing army
>Gain a Primarch and a bunch of freed slaves, and divert another Legion to pacify the no-longer compliant planet as you wiped out that army of their's
Angron's nails would have driven him bonkers anyways and nearly every one of those slaves would have died anyways during the gene mods to become Marines so they can keep fighting alongside Angron.
Look at Russ, he had thousands of warriors pledged to him when the big E showed up and every single one wanted to keep fighting with Russ as Space Yiffs. Only 12 survived the process and the Emperor was genuinely impressed with those numbers. Saving Angron's rabble was a waste of time.
That may be true, but that doesn't matter. What matters is how Angron perceives the situation. The slaves may have been useless and died shortly afterwards anyway, but Angron would have been very grateful if they had been saved. Now, he fucking hated the Emperor with a passion and was just itching for an opportunity to cut his head off. So the Emperor theoretically "gained" a Primarch, but only in a very loose sense. And who gives a shit about one planet when you sacrifice the loyalty of a Primarch to gain it?
While the planet might have not been exactly compliant if he did so, aiding his own bloody son would have certainly been better for future relations. Having your son admire you instead of hate you to death would have been quite the boost in the relationship. And that being said, he was his son. Bloody hell, what kind of horrible father doesn't care about his son's feelings?
The Emperor was already 4 steps behind his plans because of this bullshit. He had an entire species to be concerned with.
Angron's nails weren't coming out without killing him, and the War Hounds were already the disposable shock troopers of the Astartes. Besides, that was the point of the Primarchs, to command and lead the Legions without the Emperor having to bother with the little details like terrible fucking implants. That one's on Angron who knew how bad the nails were for you, but still decided to stuff them in his boy's heads.
The tool the Emperor created may have been broken, but it doesn't mean it wasn't still without it's uses. Some planets need to be brought into compliance, for those you send Guiliman or Fulgrim. Some need to be slaughtered to the man/xenos, for those you send Angron or Russ.
Well that's a terrible fucking plan. If my hammers head was loose, and I knew that if at some point while i was using it the head might break off and fly at my head I would buy a new hammer or get the old one fixed.
Broken tools are a liability, broken primarchs are primarch sized liabilities.
A planet isn't worth a Primarch, but like >>45355189 said, that was his hubris acting up. He believed he could have both because his superhuman general should be able to accept losses in his forces. Especially if it leads to epiphanies about how the scale of his seemingly important battle was meaningless.
The kind that isn't really a father. He is an amalgamation of thousands of souls all crammed together. He is older than anything not C'tan or a God. Despite his title, the Emperor is not human, nor does he or should he act like one.
He created generals to lead his armies, not sons. Chaos wisked them away and gave them "human" upbringings instead of whatever the Emperor had planned for them. Their humanity is the fault of Chaos, not the Emperor's, and it is that crack in the armor of the Primarchs that Chaos uses to start the heresy.
Reminder that Emperor is not meant to be the good guy.
>Uriah had travelled the globe extensively as a feckless youth, and had stolen the clock from an eccentric craftsman who lived in a silver palace in the mountains of Europa. The palace had been filled with thousands of bizarre timepieces, but it was gone now, destroyed in one of the many battles that swept across the continent as grand armies fought without care for the wondrous things lost in their violent spasms of war.
>Uriah suspected the clock was perhaps the last of its kind, much like his church.
>As he had fled the palace of time, the craftsman had cursed Uriah from a high window, screaming that the clock was counting down to doomsday and would chime when the last days of mankind's existence were at hand. Uriah had laughed off the man's ravings and presented the clock to his bemused father as a gift. But after the blood and fire of Gaduare, Uriah had retrieved the clock from the ruins of his family home and brought it to the church.
>The clock had made no sound since that day, yet Uriah still dreaded hearing its chimes.
>Uriah looked into the Emperor's face as he spoke, now seeing past the glamours and the magnificence to the heart of an individual who had lived a thousand lives and walked the Earth for longer than could be imagined. He saw the ruthless ambition and the molten core of violence at the Emperor's heart. In that instant, Uriah knew he wanted nothing to do with anything this man had to offer, no matter how noble or lofty his ambitions might be.
>'I hope in the name of all that is holy you are right,' said Uriah, 'but I dread the future you are forging for humanity.'
>'I wish only the best for my people,' promised the Emperor.
>'I think you do, but I will not be a part of it,' said Uriah, casting off the Emperor's cloak and walking back towards his church with his head held high. The rain beat down on him, but he welcomed it as a baptismal.
>He heard footsteps approaching him, but he heard the Emperor say, 'No. Leave him.'
>The outer doors of the church stood open and Uriah walked into the narthex, feeling the heat of the flames as they billowed around him. The statues were on fire and the doors to the nave were gone, blown off their hinges by the blasts of grenades.
>Uriah marched into the blazing heat of the church, seeing a wall of flame devouring the pews and silken hangings with insatiable hunger. Smoke filled the air and the fresco above him was almost obscured by the roiling blackness.
>THE WARRIORS REMAINED outside the church until it collapsed, the roof timbers crashing down into the building in a tremendous flurry of flying sparks and wreckage. They stayed until the first rays of sunlight crested the mountains and the rain finally extinguished the last of the flames.
>The ruins of the last church on Terra smouldered in the chill morning air as the Emperor turned away and said, 'Come, we have a galaxy to conquer.'
>As the Emperor and his warriors marched down the hillside, the only sound to be heard was the soft chiming of an old and broken clock.
No one ever credited the guy with flawless plans. I think at that point he saw Angron go from shock trooper to point-and-click Exterminatus in a Primarch form. He'll eventually implode, but barring the heresy, Angron would have been a solo problem. Easily dealt with and hey, he might take out a few dozen Xeno races with him.
He wasn't around for it. Eldrad tried contacting Fulgrim and they had tea on a Maiden World while discussing buttfucking Chaos. Everything was going swimmingly until Eldrad noticed the Laer sword and flipped shit, ending in Fulgrim jizzing himself as he soloed a Wraithlord.
How does any of this prove He is not a good guy? You can't make an omelette without breaking some eggs, and the Imperium is far superior to allowing humanity to remain scattered and weak forever, incapable of defending itself against the numerous threats capable of wiping them out.
>He wasn't around for it. Eldrad tried contacting Fulgrim and they had tea on a Maiden World while discussing buttfucking Chaos.
And here I was thinking Fulgrim was a good boy until the Daemon got to him, but apparently the fucker was a heretic from the start.
The only threat that took out the various human worlds that resisted the Great Crusade was the threat Emperor created. The point of the story is that he's no better than Horus or the random warlords of Terra, they also had a "Vision" of great and united humanity with themselves as the head.
Yeah, but without the Imperium, threats like the Necrons or the Tyranids or even the Eldar could do whatever the fuck they wanted without any hope of humanity being able to resist in its fractured and isolated states. The humans who lacked the vision to see the need for cooperation had to die for the good of the species.
And if any of those other warlords had the ability to bring that vision to reality, they would also have been welcome to try it.
After "invading" the 4th empty Maiden World, but leaving it untouched Eldrad sent Fulgrim an invitation for a meet. Everyone else wanted to slaughter them, but on a whim he decided to grant the audience because they were polite and the Maiden Worlds were a true work of art. He wanted to meet the artist first before killing them. Obviously Eldrad got away, but if I recall correctly it was when Eldrad dissed on the Big E (after noticing the sword) that Fulgrim flipped his shit and soloed the named Wraithlord and a Wave Serpent.
Misguided? Yes. But he was still a good boy at that point.
Eldar were broken long ago and none of the advanced worlds Great Crusade encountered were threatened by them.
Tyranids are attracted to the galaxy by Space Marines accidentally sending a signal during the Great Crusade as well as the Astronomican, they wouldn't even be a threat if it wasn't for the Imperium.
Most importantly Emperor's actions led to the galaxy becoming a banquet of bad feels for Chaos.
Of course none of them were the galaxy's strongest psyker or thousands of years old, so they had a snowflake's chance in the Warp of being a better candidate.
I love how everyone always trashes the Emperor and his plans, but really it's the active efforts of Chaos that keep fucking up his otherwise solid strategies.
>The Primarchs are whiny bitches
Chaos gave them human upbringings
>His most trusted son betrayed him
Killed by Chaos, raised by Chaos.
>Most importantly Emperor's actions led to the galaxy becoming a banquet of bad feels for Chaos.
False. It's Chaos fucking up the Emperor's plans that turned it into a shitshow. If he got to raise his generals, and had properly expunged the galaxy of religion before finishing his Webway portal, things would be just dandy and Chaos would have died out. But Chaos wasn't just going to roll over and take it, and did a masterful job of living up to their name.
The difference is, unlike those warlords (who I sincerely doubt had any 'great vision' besides killing the other warlords) and Horus, the Emperor has about 40-50 thousand years of knowledge, so I'd trust his vision over a guy with daddy issues and some techno-barbarian. Also The Emperor's didn't plan for the Heresy, but unfortunately he trusted some of the Primarchs far beyond what he should of, and allowed them to live. His plan was to cuts of Chaos from reality and securing humanity's spot as the galaxy dominant species.
The Primarchs are made using knowledge and power Emperor cheatyfaced from Chaos, every one has a lot of Warp energy bound inside of them. It was ez once the Geller Field protecting Empra's lab went offline.
Orks, Necrons and Chaos incursions would cleanse the galaxy if not for the Imperium. The remaning 99,9% of Xenos would also pose significant problems without the the threat of the Imperium retaliating. Then there is the economical side. Sure some planets get fucked over by tithes, but not to the point of destruction. How many planets were uplifted from lesser tech to the Imperial standard, some even beyond. How many got numerous trade partners and all the fancy stuff that comes with them.
And the Emperor was forced to unite humanity as it's leader. He was content guiding them from the shadows, only after the Iron Men rebellion, constant Xenos incursions (IIRC there were even raiders in the Sol system itself) and the threat of Chaos growing too strong did he emerge.
The only truly tragic Primachs were Magnus and Angron.
Magnus got fucked over for wanting to help. His pride was his tragic flaw yes, but he had noble goals.
Angron got dicked over by the Nails and the Big E teleporting him away (the Big E could have participated and won... but he's an idiot).
The other Primachs made conscious choices to betray the big E and could have turned back at any time. Or in the case of Curze was batshit crazy and a hopeless cause.
Curze was kinda tragic. The Emperor send an insane, traumatized guy into a war zone and encouraged him to keep engaging in his psychotic behavior instead of giving him any reasonable treatment. Instead of:
>My son, you have had a hard life. Rest assured that your troubles are at an end and I will get you the mental help you need, and also aid you in controlling your power so you are not constantly plagued by horrific visions.
>Son, you're a scary mofo. Why don't you do some more of that against my enemies? Here's a Legion of Space Marines, see ya later.
It is true that the Big E was a terrible father.
However, the other brother Primachs such as Vulkan wanted to help him. Curze rejected such help, probably because he was already too far gone.
>He created generals to lead his armies, not sons. Chaos wisked them away and gave them "human" upbringings instead of whatever the Emperor had planned for them. Their humanity is the fault of Chaos, not the Emperor's, and it is that crack in the armor of the Primarchs that Chaos uses to start the heresy.
interesting, anon - your own headcanon, or is this in the hh books?
Seems just like real-life. People who commit atrocities or abuse - unless in the case of a severe psychopath or sociopath driven over the edge - are usually pretty messed up from their circumstance or the intervention of another person who is messed up.
>And they didn't just tell him about it, they showed him the Farseeing prophecy. You don't get to photoshop that shit before it's presented.
The only evidence we have for that is the word of the Cabal.
>Curze should've been put down because mentally ill
>Angron should've been put down because abused to the point of mental illness
>Lorgar should've been put down because religious, totally the same as mentally ill, right?
>Magnus was the most prideful motherfucker in the entire Heresy. He willfully went against orders over and over again just because he thought he knew better
But he did know better! If The Emperor had listened to him instead of sending the Leman Russell Terriers to arrest him the Horus Heresy could've been nipped in the bud.
Mortarion was the one with the only legit gripe against the Emperor, he saw him as a psychic tyrant much like the rules of Barbarus. He was also the one that Lorgar and Erebus thought least likely of the traitors to turn against the emperor though.
Him getting dicked by Typhus came later though, he already cast his lot in with Horus. The Typhus dicking was when he joined Nurgle.
List made by an obvious Thousand Island faggot. Prospero Burns was one of the best
What? I though Iron Hands didn't like that his Iron Hands replaced their hands with Iron Hands just because ol' Iron Hands, Primarch of the Iron Hands, had Iron Hands.
Replacement was fine, but purposely cutting off your hands JUST so you could have Iron Hands was really not what he stood for but he couldn't really bring himself to tell all the people that idolized him that they were idiots.
>I'm starting to think this was all in fact Emps' fault
Yes, the Emperor is a tragic hero, in the classical sense. His otherwise kingly traits, i.e. his willingness to do things unilaterally and his (understandable) confidence in the superiority of his millenia-long-experience-driven judgement, are forced into shitty situations where they are twisted into becoming the source of his downfall, and into twisting his plans into the exact opposite of what he wanted to accomplish, despite their apparent success. That's called irony... actual irony, not Alanis Morissette irony.
That was basically the ONLY thing that the BL novels got right: preserving the greek tragedy of The Emperor.
>Primarch Jaghatai Khan mustered the White Scars, the Chapter of Space Marines which he had personally instructed in the art of lightning warfare
Was Legions a later thing?
The story of the primarchs in their tubes being sucked into the warp and deposited at random by the chaos gods is older than most of the rest of the heresy fiction, and depicted in A Thousand Sons and possibly Prospero Burns, I'd call it true.
>had listened to him
He didn't send the message though, when his astral projection reaches the Emperor it becomes apparent that he fucked up (everything's exploding, psykers dying all around) and he doesn't even deliver the message.
He's just like "shit" and leaves without saying anything, realising just how much he's fucked up
Magnus's story is basically hubris cubed - the Emperor is to proud and believes he knows best, doesn't tell Magnus what he's up to. Magnus ignores his warnings, thinks he knows best and fucks up. Arhiman then thinks he knows best and ignores Magnus's orders to surrender peacefully (though Tzeench is at work all the while too)
How is Lorgar's story sad?
He writes a book about how everyone should worship his dad, his brother Bobby G burns his favorite golden city down so he hatches an immensely successful multi-decade revenge plot.
Then all the faggots start worshiping dad using the book he wrote anyway. It's a win / win!
>Why couldn't the Emperor remove the nails?
It would kill Angron, thus making it a matter of do I want to kill Angron?
>Emperor not put his foot down and stop Angron from making his legion have them too?
He did, Angron did not go along with it. Then he set the space wolfs to force the matter, they failed. Each side has a different version of the events. The only thing that the thing that the Emperor could of done was do a kill order. However that happen when the great crusade was still in full swing, thus that would be a lost of much needed military resources.
>He literally never inspects them himself. He has some random apothecary do it.
In one of the novels it is noted that after that first look at the nails Angron was give a full examination by Malcador the Sigillite and his staff back on Terra. In the short term it did improve his condition but it was found out that the nails were causing a long term incurable degeneration and fatal issues. However the estimated time for that to come up was still so far away that he was still useful.
This is my thoughts on the matter but I think that the emperor was at that point planning on making him a fall guy later on down the road. Letting him do the messy work for the Imperium then when he is no longer useful put him down thus distancing the emperor from the blood letting done for his gain. This is what Curze believed was the nature his relationship with the emperor and could easily be the nature of Angron's relationship with the emperor.
>The whole thing makes the Emperor seem like a colossal retard
>Yes, and the Emperor was supposed to be smart
The issue here is that most people read the Emperor of 40k as being a "Paul Atreides" type character. Sure he has a bit of that about him, but he is much more of a "Hari Seldon" type.
you know those options are both pretty bad , but IVE GOT SOMETHING WORSE IN MIND
t: tacticool genius
i prefer the idea that alpha and omega disagreed on what was the best course to follow and split up
on top of that the space elves where probably lying considering 4/5th of the emperor could still fuck up horus while he was being powered by all the chaos gods
or it's just shitty wrtiting and tweests for the sake of tweests
>The Emperor could have given the sword one fucking look and told Fulgrim it had to go, but didn't for reasons.
Fulgrim got that sword after the close of the Ullanor Crusade. The Emperor had by that point called the war effort good and wet back to Terra to work on a project. Thus the Emperor would have never seen Fulgrim barring Fulgrim having gone to Terra at some point in between when he got that sword and the battle of Isstvan III.
>who planned and wanted for Horus to fail.
fuck this JUST AS PLANNED writing
the reason why the whole fluff is is polluted is because they never dare to make anyone's faction suffer a defeat
The Oldcron codex depicted Chaos as having its roots in the War in Heaven - however, it should be noted that the most dangerous warp-creatures at the time, the ones that ended the war (in this version), had nothing to do with the Chaos Gods, who were presumably still far from fully formed yet.
>Just two of the C'tan have emerged from their tombs to plague the galaxy thus far. They have found a new and unexpected age of civilisation and war. The galaxy is blossoming with life but still overrun with latent psykers and worshippers of the infernal warp energies unleashed by the war with the Old Ones.
The idea of the first three gods awaking during early human history is even older, but often misinterpreted. The order of cause and effect that >>45355203 proposed is actually the correct one. Pic related:
>Khorne was the first of the Great Powers to wake fully, and an era of wars and conflict raged across the globe. Tzeentch was the next, and nations and politics grew to adulthood with all of their implicit intrigues and double-dealings. Nurgle was the third to awake and plagues swept across continents claiming many souls for the Lord of Decay. By the end of the Middle Ages all three of these Chaos Powers had awoken to full consciousness.
Though the very next paragraph says that even with all the other races throughout the galaxy, Chaos is still mostly humans' fault.
Originally the terms were used somewhat interchangeably. Space Marines were both organised into Chapters and officially called the Legiones Astartes. The Horus Heresy, in which half of the Legiones Astartes Chapters turned to Chaos, was the First Inter-Legionary War, and the rebel Chapters were known as the Traitor Legions.
Of course, by the time the Assault on Holy Terra story was printed, the distinction between Legions and Chapters had long been firmly established. But then the Index Astartes article in the same WD issue was about the "Black Legion Space Marine Chapter".
It's chaos. No planning required. The Cabal thought to alter the course of time and ended up fucking everything and getting the exact outcome they wanted to avoid.
Hubris feeds Chaos like nothing else. Note how everyone in 40k do "bad things" justified by "good intentions". The circumscribed morale of 40k is that bad actions never have good consequences. Disorder accrues; and the world goes to hell-inna-handbasket.
Yeah, but then he didn't actually deliver it - he was so shook up by the magnitude of his fuckup (which was revealed to him right as he succeeded in contacting the Emperor, in true Tzeench style) that he couldn't/didn't actually deliver the message.
It might, might have been excusable if he'd said what he came to say, but as it is it's a major and inexcusable failure.
And he knew it, hence the order to his men to stand down (which was ignored, because they inherited his hubris)
>(How he recruited Doombreed beforehand, beats me, but whatever.)
You may be confusing Genghis Khan (1162-1227) with Attila the Hun (434–453). The First Crusade was 1096-1099. Genghis postdates it.
Only just now came back and noticed my goof: second part of that post was meant for >>45372179.
Have some more Realm of Chaos fluff.
>The warp is the spiritual reflection of the life of the entire universe
>As human numbers increased and human civilisation grew away from its natural roots the particular warp energies created by humans began to dominate the warp.
>he particular warp energies created by humans began to dominate the warp.
The Chaos Gods confirmed to be human gods. Humans are the cancer that's killing the universe.
Humans must die for the greater good of all.
All earths psykers have a vision of destruction at the hands of chaos in the future, get together, commint ritual suicide, create the emperor.
For a long time, is the only psychic human force in existance because they used up all of mankinds psychic potential.
And THIS guy thinks chaos was created by humanity. That borders on hubris, fellow imperial citizen.
>had nothing to do with the Chaos Gods, who were presumably still far from fully formed yet.
Be'lakor, known to all as the Firstborn of the Chaos Gods, is speculated to be millions of years old. He has memories of the first Necrontyr necropolis AND the first Eldar home worlds.
How could this be?
Chaos: the Hands of Fate.
That's the whole point. What we call "chaos" (really the psychoreactive manifestation of the collective expectations and beliefs of psi-imprints across the galaxy) has control over all those myriad little accidents that butterfly effect their way into big twists of Fate. No Eldar Farseer can see into the future more clearly than a Chaos power, because the Farseer gets his power (ultimately) FROM chaos. Chaos's weakness is that ultimately it's a reflection of material intelligence rather than an entity in its own right.
So of course all those twists bend fate in the direction that is to Chaos's greatest benefit. Only constant, active work to resist it can save you, and even then it's not certain. Each of these man had flaws, and it was Chaos's job to make sure that those would turn out to be FATAL flaws.
The first two were damaged goods beyond repair. Lorgar was fine, he just disagreed with the Emperor on such a fundamental level that there was little to be gained by leaving him alive.
>the Emperor is, in fact, not only not perfect but deeply flawed
>the Imperium is incredibly fucked up, in no small part because of their Emperor worship
...yes, you have in fact discovered one of the core themes of the setting.
>To the Ork mindset.
i.e. the only mindset that matters.
Any website i can read these books online? downloading epub and finding a decent torrent is a bit of a hassle, also which book do i start with?