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So the clans were enslaved by the dragons....
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So the clans were enslaved by the dragons. And that should be seriously a "good" ending?
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>>45301387
The point is it was good for Sarkhan, bad for everyone else.
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It's only enslavement for anyone not an Atarka or Ojutai.
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>>45301602
>Ojutai and Atarka
>Not enslavement
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>>45301387
Yes, it was. They have since recognized the fuckup.

>We Left Tarkir in the Wrong State

>For most of the other mistakes, I think I know what I'd do if I had to do the block over again. The solution to this one, though, is far less obvious. Magic has a long history of creating cool, exciting worlds and then trashing them. I believe it is one of the biggest issues with a three-set block, that the need to make the last set so different mechanically pushes us to do radical things to the world to match the environmental shift.

>Long ago, we saw mechanics as disposable; we then came to realize that they were valuable tools we could reuse. I think in many ways we used to see worlds in the same way. We visit and move on. But now we're realizing we've built cool places we want to go back to. That gets us to this problem. We made a very compelling world that players fell in love with, and then we changed it to a less compelling world forever. Now, I don't believe we thought we were doing that. We over-valued the Dragon-filled world and underestimated the warlord clan world.

>This also ties into another problem. One of the reasons we chose a wedge theme for Khans of Tarkir was because we knew it wasn't mechanically deep enough to use for an entire block. But by giving players a taste of wedge in the beginning, we set up a desire for us to deliver that for the whole block when there was no way we could.

>What do these two things mean? It means with 20/20 hindsight, we did the change backwards. We should have started with Dragons, probably with another layer added in and then had the world change to clan-filled wedge world. Players would have been excited to get wedge without any expectation for more as the block would have ended.
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>>45301610
Well yeah; living under either would be a lot easier than say Kolaghan. They have very easy rules to live by, essentially Don't Do Necromancy and Be A Monk.
Follow those and your golden.
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>>45301387
Don't worry they'll fix it in Return to Tarkir! Fall 2017
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>>45301699
u wot? Atarka is all about enslaving her clansfolk to her hunger. Either you provide her with food or you get eaten.

As for Ojutai, he reduced a clan based on the exploration of individual paths and declared that only his particular opinion was correct. Disagreeing with Ojutai is heresy and is punishable by death. Hell, the skywise are known to eat humans if they find them particularly disagreeable--though doing so is considered somewhat poor manners.

Saying that Ojutai didn't enslave the Jeskai is like claiming that North Korea is the last bastion of true freedom.
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>>45301815
Ah I see, so which dragon am I talking about if not Atarka?

>Ojutai replaced individual paths
Implying that having an achievable goal with a way to do it is worse than "kick the sands and count the grains". Seriously, in Jeskai lands all you have to do is say you are enlightened and you are, who can say otherwise?

>Skywise eating people
They're not the Atarka, they don't go devouring whole families because they can. I'm not seeing the problem with that, it's like a death penalty crime. Would your opinion change if it was two humans dueling to the death?
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>>45301748
>tfw Rebels of Tarkir is legitimately the set I want the most right now
Introduce my favorite world, and then fuck it up beyond all recognition. Great fun, Wizards.
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>>45301973
>achievable goal
It isn't. The Ojutai flat-out state that enlightenment is impossible for non-dragons to achieve. They say that humans who get especially close might--MIGHT--get reincarnated as dragons. But talking about that, implying any individual human was ever actually reincarnated as a dragon, or implying that any dragon is the reincarnation of a human is punishable by death.

So what if some random shmoe among the Jeskai claimed to be enlightened? Pride was disdained, and there isn't any prize for reaching enlightenment. The only one he would be cheating would be himself.

>I'm not seeing the problem with that, it's like a death penalty crime. Would your opinion change if it was two humans dueling to the death?
"Being disliked" is not something that should be considered a death penalty crime. And, yes, my opinion would change if it were two humans dueling to the death, because a duel to the death would imply an equal footing. If you look at a dragon and it decides to kill you as a result of that "transgression," you never had any degree of influence over what happened to you.
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>>45301973
You were probably thinking of Dromoka.
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>>45301973
You seem to be thinking of Dromoka, the one who rips children away from their parents and transfers them to a different plantation under a draconic overseer. Dragons don't have to engage with the system, by the way--they can live without being associated with mortals. Non-dragons, however, have no choice but to be corralled. Any attempt to trace bloodlines among humanoids is punishable by death.
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>>45302132
Is that any different than the Abzan who went out, killed entire villages and carted away their orphans? Sounds practically the same except the Dromoka don't care about family lineage.
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>>45301977
>Wizards finally introduces an interesting character in my favorite color combination
>And a qt, too
>Heavily imply that she's going to be a planeswalker
>Hype as fuck
>They kill her off in the first set
>But it's okay because TIME TRAVEL BULLSHIT
>She's a planeswalker now!
>Oh and we made her just WU instead of that color combination you liked and put her in a retarded outfit
Fuck. I don't even care about the autism.
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>>45302272
Abzan didn't hunt down noncombatant villages, they took in the noncombatants of those they slew in battle. And, yes, there is a similarity, with the key difference that the krumar were treated as true family members and could have lineages of their own. And, again, all the Houses were a part of it, whereas Dromoka dragons can opt out.

The Abzan gave you a family. The Dromoka don't allow family to exist at all.
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>No Zurgo planeswalker
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>>45302272
Yes, because the Abzan didn't do that.
They took out Mardu raiding groups attacking their shit (sometimes preemptively, yes) and when this action - due to Mardu Raiding Groups comprising the entirety of the Mardu clan structure - left behind children, took said children in and adopted them rather than murdering the children and/or leaving the children to either starve to death OR get picked up by a different raiding group and come back for revenge
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>>45302364
Why would you want a planeswalker of a bland, completely unlikeable character?

"I hate Vol" is literally Zurgo's entire characterization.
>>
Well, between Narset, Sidisi, and Anafenza, at least three upheavals are in the works. Surrak probably wouldn't mind eating Dromoka, either.

Zurgo, of course, is just as much of a bitch as he was in KTK, and so probably isn't going to do shit.
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>>45301387
Atarka is a walking ecological disaster, despite being RG.
Silumgar is a saturday morning cartoon villain and is somehow the least dickish because he's open about his assholery
Kolaghan is your typical silent video game protagonist, being played by a twelve year old.
Everything is perfect in North Ojutai, because Dear Teacher says it is, and to say otherwise would imply Dear Teacher is lying.
Friend Dromoka is watching you. Compliance is mandatory. Teamwork is mandatory. Report any REBEL NECRO TRAITORS to Friend Dromoka for immediate termination. Failure to report REBEL NECRO TRAITORS is grounds for termination.
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>>45301387
This is literally what I thought as soon as the set came out.
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>>45302297
Both Narset's look nice.
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>>45301748
>>45301977
The worst part is that, due to the negative reaction to Dragons of Tarkir--the set where they fucked everything up--market research data almost certainly implies that the plane itself was disliked, so they're unlikely to go back and fix it.
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>>45302652
Transcendent's outfit is pretty dumb. It's World of Warcraft levels of overdesigned.
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>>45302561
Honestly this is my problem with Tarkir, kneejerk reactions like this who take things to their extreme and present it as if that's all there is.
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>>45302538
>Sidisi
Why not let one of the Cat demons be in control?
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>>45302699
What else IS there to the dragonlords, really, though?
While yes, those are exaggerations, WotC were the ones who went out of their way to note that all the dragonlords were horrible and there being no actual ambiguity about it (
>>
To be fair Red-Green has always been the most extreme of color combinations. It's always just an extreme of emotion; hunger for the Atarka, bliss for the revelers of Theros and Rage for the street shamans of Ravnica,
.... I'd even say it's the worse color combination lore wise, winning over Red/Black.
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>>45302769
Because Sidisi is currently working on brewing a master super-poison to kill Silumgar with.

I'd be fine with a Rakshasa khan, but I was going off of the story threads they already had in DTK.
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>>45302699
The dragonlords are pretty clearly shitty. Compare that to the khans, where, despite Wizards saying so over and over again, people have a hard time seeing how the world was supposed to be flawed.
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>>45301387
>needing a happy ending
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>no qt undead naga gf to scheme with
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>>45302936
>Tarkir under the Khans
>everyone is fighting
>Tarkir under the Dragonlords
>everyone is still fighting, also rampant ecological changes
Which of these is the flawed, damaged world again?
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>>45301690
How would they have done this?
Right like instead of a Dragonlord removing a color, they add one instead.

I can't see how that would work in most cases.
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>>45303035
Weren't the khans fighting for resources? what if one of the wins, then what? there's nothing left. also weren's dragons part of the natural balance to the plane?
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>>45303100
>Weren't the khans fighting for resources?
You mean like literally every force who has fought a war IRL? Even "religious" wars ultimately had conveniently huge resource gains when they were successful.

>what if one of the wins, then what? there's nothing left.
What? That isn't how war works.

>also weren's dragons part of the natural balance to the plane?
No, they were literally just a product of Ugin being so dragon that he made storms that shat out other dragons. When he died the dragonstorms faded immediately.
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>>45303133
Yeah, but I thought that the resources on Tarkir were dwindling, with each Khan having less and less.
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>>45303087
Start with allied pair clans in KTK. WU Jeskai, for instance.

In FRF, it's allied pair clans versus enemy pair dragons. WU Jeskai versus UR Ojutai.

In DTK, with the dragons having conquered the clans, you have all three colors. URW Jeskai-Ojutai.
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>>45303162

And how are the dragons going to help that? Seeing as how one LITERALLY ravages ecosystems to death by her own self, and the other dragons have a fixed birth-rate (dragonstorms) and no natural death-rate, meaning they'll steadily consume MORE resources than a humans-only Tarkir, not less.
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>>45303197
It's also worth nothing that the humanoid population dropped MASSIVELY in dtk
Thanks Sarkhan
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>>45303172
Even then it seems hard to end up with the Temur and Abzan that way.
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>>45301387
>And that should be seriously a "good" ending?

They explicitly stated that Tarkir used the "gonna travel back in time to make everything turn out right OH FUCK EVERYTHING'S KINDA FUCKED NOW AND MUCH WORSE" trope. The only person who thought it was a "good" ending was Sarkhan because LOL DRAGONS FUCK YEAH!
>>
>Wizards continually fails at designing a good card game
>blames lore
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>>45303285
>Implying that isn't just Wizards damage control for when players rejected the Dragon ending
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>>45303414
>Khans are worse off
>people are slaves of dragons
>clan history thought-controlled and censored by dragons
>durdle turtle dead

Yeah, I'm sure the Dragons of Tarkir set was planned as the great utopia Tarkir had always needed. :^)
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>>45303414
Nah, they were saying that as early as the Fate Reforged announcement.
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>>45301977
>Dromoka followers who still believe in the old ways find a Kin Tree Sapling
>They begin to learn of their ancestors, while making new connections in newly discovered blood relatives
>Even sympathetic dragons (who spent much of their time among humans) want to join
>Civil War breaks out as Dragonlord Dromoka tries to stomp out the resurgence of the old ways
>The New House of Azban vs Dromoka loyalists
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>>45302665
No, see >>45301690

They saw people liked Khans Tarkir more than Dragons Tarkir. They fucked up Dragons Tarkir because they thought dragons would hype the world enough to make it valid. Turns out they made the initial world way more fun than the fucked up world.
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>>45303695
That's what you get when you listen to the retards in your player base who cream themselves over tribal bullshit.

There's just no winning. You appeal to tribal morons and the rest of the player base will dislike it but you sell boxes upon boxes of Avacyn Restored to players who just need to get their fucking playset of all the Mythic angels. On the other hand, you make a simple set that doesn't take any risks and make out like a bandit stealing from proven mythology wholesale like Theros and it's the most uninspiring shit ever.
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>>45303831
I liked Theros, you fuck.
Although I'd liked the proto-version of it more when it still was a plane where people's dreams would battle against them with Ashiok playing the villain.
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>>45303831
Greek Mythology is neat though.
And Theros had some very pretty artwork.
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>>45303831
>There's just no winning. You appeal to tribal morons and the rest of the player base will dislike it but you sell boxes upon boxes of Avacyn Restored to players who just need to get their fucking playset of all the Mythic angels.
DTK didn't sell as well as KTK, though, which seems to contradict your point.
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>>45303940
>DTK didn't sell as well as KTK
You got a source for that? Because I was under the impression Wizards does not release sales numbers.
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>>45301387
Sarkhan is a 100% accurate depiction of what WotC believes the average MtG fan is like.
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>>45303982
A time-travelling madman with voices in his head?
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>>45302561

I find it kind of hilarious that in Khans they had the wedge colors "talk" and the Abzan one had Black claim it makes sure achievement matters and nobody would ever want to excel in a world run by WG.

Fast forward to dragons of Tarkir, where the WG faction is a ruthless meritocracy where the weak are forced to toughen up or get mercilessly culled and only achievement can advance you in the eyes of the scalelords while the UB faction encourages mediocrity because the weak and stupid get exploited but anyone that gets too good at anything gets scythed down by the paranoia of their overlords.
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>>45303695
I expected dragon riders not dragon slaves
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>>45304011
Because dragons were always nice in Magic's past, right? ;^)
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>>45304007
Tats cause the dromoka indoctrinate any ambition out of their slaves
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>>45304007
>WG faction is a ruthless meritocracy where the weak are forced to toughen up or get mercilessly culled and only achievement can advance you in the eyes of the scalelords
That's not even slightly true, though.
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>>45304064

Still, to survive in Dromoka society you have to be good at what you do.

To survive in Silumgar society you have to be just good enough nobody turns you into a zombie and NEVER dream of getting even a hair better than that. Ambition is fucking lethal.
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>>45304003
no, a mouthbreathing idiot obsessed with DRAGONS
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>>45303639
>azban

Shiggydiggy mah niggy
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>>45304085

>"Within each draconic family, humanoid children—ainok, aven, and human—are raised communally. Young children are often traded among families, moving to another aerie away from their birth parents. To outside eyes, the Dromoka seem like a clan of orphans, but members would say that among them there are no orphans. The clan is the only parentage they know, and to them, the clan can never die. This system of exchange removes the notion of inheritance by blood. Thus, every humanoid starts out on equal footing, and advancement in the clan is strictly meritocratic. Promising students rise through the ranks, so every Dromoka battle formation is commanded by a soldier who earned the position through stamina, bravery, and leadership."

>"Dromoka is closely involved in the affairs of her clan. She frequently roams her territory, communicating with her draconic overseers and the highest among their underlings. If she finds the state of an aerie to be satisfactory, she flies on. Should she find weakness, however, she does not stand for it. If possible, she will attempt to rectify the situation; if not, she will summarily devour the weak link. Either way, when she departs, the clan will be better equipped for survival."
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>>45303639
And Dromoka destroys them all as there is no longer any weapon on Tarkir capable of damaging her.
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>>45304107
Well fuck, man.
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>>45304169
Or so they say
Maybe that's why she hates necromancy so much is caus black mana is her Achilles heel
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>>45304142
M-mother is tough b-but m-m-m-other is f-f-air...
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>>45304275
Well we did see that necromancy magic does seem to be effective against the dragons in one of the UR stories.

I think it was the one where we found out about Anafenza in the DTK timeline, where she's a ghost because she used an ancestor tree to BTFO a Kolaghan clan dragon.
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>>45304275
The greatest weapon against her was shattered.
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>>45302873
What is bad about Red/Black?
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>>45304652

The Rakdos and the Kolaghan tend to be the representatives of what B/R's all about.

So it's about killing people for no reason, burning their women, raping their houses, and so on.
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>>45304702
Well Rakdos I get, but forgive me cause I never gave a shit about Tarkir BR since Khans, but what do Kolaghan do differently now that white is out of the equation?
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>>45304702
I would kill to get some positive red-black lore.
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>>45304858
They just murder shit.
No honor or anything like that, just constant battle and fear of their Dragonlord and her brood. I think they literally have blood-drinker berserkers or something like that....
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>>45304858

Fight everything, all the time.

Their dragonlord can speak but chooses to communicate with her clan entirely through random and unprovoked acts of violence while razing miles of land to make them uninhabitable for shits and giggles.

Yeah, the "Kolaghan is the good one" people from Fate Reforged were very surprised when Dragons rolled around.
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>>45304934
She took away their bows and gave them lightening magic and dragon-roaring.
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>>45304892
Wasn't that more or less what they were doing before? Just substitute 'for honor' with 'for Kolaghan', and it's about the same innit?
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>>45304892
>blood-drinker berserkers
Cannibal berserkers.
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>>45304934
Yeah that about answers it.
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>>45304892

The Crave, which makes them a bunch of berserker cannibals.
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>>45304977

They weren't cannibals who killed their own when there was nobody else to kill before, so that's new.

And, y'know, their Khan didn't slaughter them at random for shits and giggles in the old days.
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>>45304977
No.
Mardu wage war for personal reasons (like honor and glory), Kolaghan do it because they're scared of her.
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>>45305019
Oh shit now they're turning on eachother. Fuckin dragons, meng
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>>45304088
Isn't Silumgar the only clan where non-dragons can rise to positions of command over *actual* dragons?
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>>45304863
They would just have to play up the passion and ambition of the two colors without going overboard with the negatives probably with a supporting character to keep them in check.

>>45304652
It's usually about power at any cost with little regard for ethics (black) and combine that with an intense passion (red) and you end up with someone that's a little too eager to take things too far.
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>>45305131

And then Silumgar has them killed in case they ever get ideas about taking his chair.
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>>45305178
So Silumgar is basically Stalin?
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>>45305225

Stalin combined with Jabba the Hutt.
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>>45302444
"I like dragons" is Sarkhan's entire characterization
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>>45302873
The problem with Red-Green is that the only flavor they give to the color combination is "Me smash thing". If you take any other color combination in multicolor focused block/faction like Shadowmoor/Eventide, Ravnica guilds Theros gods etc... they all had different flavor each time, except Red-Green who is always the same.
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>>45305147
I think someone once said that the most positive red/black character would end up being like Garfield. The cat.
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>>45305405
Wasn't R/G in Lorwyn the domain of trick playing goblins and wandering giants?
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>>45305147
>They would just have to play up the passion and ambition of the two colors without going overboard with the negatives probably with a supporting character to keep them in check.

The typical shonen hero?
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>>45305425
alright, I need an explanation
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>>45305500
>R/B shonen protagonist
I did not know I wanted this so badly
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>>45305500
I was thinking more along the lines of post-Freiza Saga Vegeta
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>>45304107
>guided by the ghost of Pamela Anderson
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>>45305430
No, there wasn't a R/G faction in Lorwyn. Trick playin Goblins were B/R and Giant W/R. They became R/G in Shadowmoor, but they also became gruul-like.
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>>45305425
I remember that MaRo once said that Peter Pan was red/black.
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>>45305500

No, most shonen heroes tend to give a shit about people that aren't them. Black's not really down for that.
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>>45305513
He's entirely self motivated and ruled by his emotions but he isn't a terrible me being.
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What is your favorite clan?
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>>45306423
I like Dromoka.
Strong dragonmom.

>>45305671
But red is.
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>>45303695
Who even likes dragons, seriously
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>>45302297
Why do people keep saying Narset was autistic?
I wasn't around for KTK block, but it sounds like she was more ADHD than anything
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>>45302444
Zurgo's a baller, man.
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>>45301387
At least we got the Legend that never dies.

Dragons lay down all the laws that we fight to uphold.
There is hordes, there is feasts there is zombies.
Fists are the key and they travel alone.
Yeah the drakes of today, have no fury or fire or soul!
Silumgar can't fly!
You conspire to enlighten me!
Waring tides! Peace it dies! You can try!
THE LEGEND NEVER DIES!!!
Fire the Bear Cannon!
{SHAMAN NOISES}
Dromaka of the east more like Dromoka of the Deceased!
Get. Good. Snake.
What food you got Bitch?!
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>>45307114
She can literally never be happy with how much she knows.
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>>45307073
Children and nerds.
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>>45304007
One is Black when you're the underdog
The other's Black when you're top dog
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>>45301699
>Well yeah; living under either would be a lot easier than say Kolaghan. They have very easy rules to live by, essentially Don't Do Necromancy and Be A Monk.
>Follow those and your golden.
Being enslaved by a nice dragon is better than being enslaved by a mean, nasty dragon.

It's still enslavement, though.
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>>45307217
That's not what autism is
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>>45307217
That doesn't sound autistic at all
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>>45307512
>>45307513
Well I know that but that's what others took from it and say what they say.
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>>45303695
Dragons are just big lizards, they've been done to death.

The three color clans were all very new and unique and had great flavor to them. It really didn't help DTK where two of the dragonlords had no personality. You could swap Atarka and Kolaghan and they'd barely change.


The clans just lost so much that made them interesting. Giraffe cavalry and even fucking siege rhino are cooler cards than most of the dragons.
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>>45307544
So why'd you say it if you know it's wrong?

>>45307194
Is Surrak loyal to Atarka, or is he likely to start an uprising?
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>>45307544
There's also the fact that Doug Beyer specifically said she was written as Autistic when somebody asked him on his tumblr
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>>45307689
Because the question was "Why do people keep saying Narset was autistic?" not "Why is Narset autistic?"
>>
as an oldfag Magic player I can look at it this way: at least there were more dragons in this "dragon" set than in Scourge
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>>45307114
Because she was confirmed to be:

http://dougbeyermtg.tumblr.com/post/112727174244/hi-doug-reading-the-new-uncharted-realms-i-felt
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>>45306423
There are no obstacles, only different paths.
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>>45307689
In Surrak's final story he punches a dragon to death, eats it and when his companions betray him out of fear of Atarka, she approves Surrak's actions while he explains he only follows dragons because they are stronger than him, if he is faced by weaker dragons it's the natural way for it to be eaten by the stronger being. So no loyalty at all.
>>
I just want a dragon themed block where they aren't total dicks.
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>>45304934
We were hoping for RB that wasn't just KILLMAINSLAUGHTER for once.
Yes, we were surprised. It didn't help that they kept the Planeswalker's Guide detailing the Kolaghan for last.
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>>45308347
And people in Hell want ice water.
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>>45305671
Black could well care about people in the same way Drana does - these are MY people. They belong to ME, and fuck anyone messing with MY things.
Combine that with the passion and emotion from red and you could have something interesting - and, if we were talking about Kolaghan in particular, draconic. The Mardu Horde becomes Kolaghan's Hoard.
>>
>>45308580

Ha. Word play.
>>
>>45308347
>dragons that aren't dicks
what's even the point, then
>>
>>45308580
Passion and love are important aspects of Red as well. Black is full of desire, but is possessive and petty.

Kolaghan's Hoard Harem

>Don't fuck with my fucks
>>
>>45307942
damn surrak it metal as fuck
>>
so then does red/black need a chaperone color?
>>
>>45308871
Yes
>>
>>45308871
Red and black's modi operandi aren't goal-oriented for the most part. Goals inherent to red and black are chaos and decay, which aren't necessary to bed RB but there aren't really any other goals that come with just having those colors.

Red adds freedom and emotion. Black adds individuality and pragmatism. The only non-edgy BR that is a natural result of the pair is then mindless hedonism á la Rakdos.

A third color gives them a goal. White gives them order. Green gives the natural order. Blue gives them imposed order.

The colors just aren't very good archetypes. We'd need Garfield to bring a fresh perspective founded in the days of yore to rehaul things I think, for BR to be something that has an obvious and deeper structure.
>>
>>45309137
>Goals inherent to red and black are chaos and decay
Neither of those is a goal.
>>
>>45309178
They are.
Actively working to disassemble order, and actively working to corrupt things.
Urabrask vs. old Phyrexia

They're not very reasonable goals, which was the entire point of my post. They're very arbitrary for the most part.
>>
>>45309137
>This simplistic a view of the colors
I bet you think "nature" is one of green's goals as opposed to just a favored tool.
>>
>>45309210
Black's goal is power. Red's goal is freedom. Chaos and decay are tools that they use, not goals in and of themselves.
>>
>>45301973
>Seriously, in Jeskai lands all you have to do is say you are enlightened and you are, who can say otherwise?
The jeski monks dident particuraly care what others thought of them.
>>
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>>45308871
Red and black are the colors of individuality. They don't need a "chaperone" color when it comes to an individual, but, when it comes to making an actual organization, you have problems. Because they're the two colors most associated with individual choice and action, and opposed to the color of organization and structure.

As such, black-red organizations tend to be terrible clusterfucks because the easiest way to make one is to have a cult of personality around one big motherfucker who rules because he or she is the strongest.
>>
>>45307114
That's the theory maro gos with to.
>>
>>45308580
I'd prefer this over the Horde we got where she rules with fear.
>>
So they find Nahiri and Jace convinces her to join the guardians of the gate-acy after she learns that Zendikar was not nommed. She however wants to have a word with Ugin and bullies Sorin into telling her where Ugin's home is.
>Be Ugin
>Chilling away from all the assfaggots on Tarkir
>killed my motherfuckin eldrazi
>One of my scions come up, apparently some human has been murdering all of the Kolaghan dragons.
>Get there as fast as I can, it's that Jura fucker from Zendikar
>wat.jpg
>Tells me that Nahiri invited them here, firecrotch went to Ojutai territory.
>Skywise flying away said she caught Ojutai on fire when he attacked her.
>Get a call from Sorin, call him a bitch ass motherfucker, I would continue but he tells me to make sure Dumb Elf didn't bond with the soul of the world.
>Sudden screeching from the Silumgar territory as a giant tree dragon flies off into the horizon
>Fuck Atarka, she's probably stuffing her face, need to find Dromoka
>Get to Arashin
>Where the fuck are the Drag- ohfuckno
>Dromoka propped up with a stone forged blade going through her eye.
>Examine funny looking pommel
>It's a hand flipping someone off
>Flipping ME off
>All my anger boils up as I let loose a roar
>NAHIREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!
>>
>>45309137
>Red adds freedom and emotion. Black adds individuality and pragmatism. The only non-edgy BR that is a natural result of the pair is then mindless hedonism á la Rakdos.

Individual Freedom. Bam. I just came up with a non-edgy BR goal off the top of my head.
>>
Where do you think Ugin got the idea for dragon-storms anyways?
>>
>>45309412
Like Chandra?
>>
>>45309560
I see no reason why Chandra couldn't be B/R. Other than her being the main red walker, and therefore never being allowed to be anything else, regardless of how much it fits the character.
>>
>>45309622
Well you have to ask yourself if she would do anything for her own freedom.
Given Gatewatch I don't think she would.
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What was black mana even used for on Jund?
(They're dragon worshippers I take it so it ties into this) I mean from the story about this chick and her undead dragon she's the first Necromancer on that Shard.
>>
>>45310243
The brutality of it all I imagine.
>>
>>45310114
Black characters can work with others and have obligations while still remaining black. See: Sorin working with Ugin and Nahiri to imprison the Eldrazi
>>
>>45301699
Kolaghan was probably the best to live under. She wanted the Mardu to raid which is what they did anyway. Atarka was probably tthe cruelest.
>>
>>45310349
Yeah but black mana always comes with necromancers. I'm just wondering how they missed that.
>>
>>45310515
A lack of corpses, actually. Jund has a startling lack of corpses in general, since most things that die are consumed before someone can get around to learning how to turn it into some sort of zombie.
>>
>>45308779
thisx100

I swear to god if Ugin doesn't turn out to be just as evil as Bolas I will be so upset I'll complain about it on an anonymous Malasian pictograph assembly.

I just want an evil vs. evil block in Magic. Phyrexia vs. Eldrazi sounds way too gay and fanboyish to be fun. Ugin vs. Bolas with Ugin going full Urza would be gold.
>>
>>45308604
It's too fucking obvious that we're shocked they didn't do it
>>
>>45304142
That concerns itself with weakness which green absolutely classically culls.
>>
>>45303940
FETCHES
>>
>>45310666
Thanks for the insight Satan.
I still find that hard to believe but it does sound factual.
>>
>>45310860
AVR also sold well on the backs of Griselbrand, Entreat the Angels, Terminus, and Bonfire of the Damned
>>
>>45301690

Honestly, I would have preferred it to go, like Khans-Dragons-Fate Reforged. You start with the Khans, then go for like, "we fucked up the timeline, Marty!" and the dragons are running wild over everything, then you fix things, hooray Ugin is back and the clans and the dragons are fighting so when we leave Tarkir there's MORE going on, not LESS.
>>
>>45310914
Also Cavern of Souls, Craterhoof Behemoth, and Resto Angel
>>
>>45310939
I read your quote as "we fucked up the timeline Morty!"
>well *uu-uurp* you really did it now Sarkhan, I just wanted you to, you know, fix the timeline and stuff. Shit's reaall Cronenburged up now
>Aw jeez Ugin, I just wanted to make you proud. I didn't know so many dragons would be this bad
>What did you expect Sarkhan? you-you-you think everyone be all happy you retroactively made them alive again. Aw shit Vol thanks for fixing the timeline, I'm totally not gonna eat you.
>Now we need to track down the Eldrazi Sarkhan, I need you to shove this hedron waaaay up your butt
>aw jeez
>>
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>>45310871
Here is two cards who talk about it.
>>
>>45311087
Alright then.
I suppose I shouldn't be too put off by the fact that Jund never had necromancy before. Maybe it's nice to diversify what a color can do and not just stick to the basics.
>>
>>45309412

It is also completely worthless as a goal for a faction.

Of the five colors, black and red are the most individualistic, with blue in a distant third. They just don't tend to work well as a group without falling back on something a large number of fundamentally selfish individuals would group up around, like hedonism. Red hates having long-term goals and Black hates being in groups, which makes it hard to design a RB "faction" with any coherent modus operandi.
>>
>>45311357
>Red hates having long-term goals and Black hates being in groups, which makes it hard to design a RB "faction" with any coherent modus operandi.

Sounds like Bernie Sanders supporters
>>
>>45304107
Huh.

Sarkhan really did nothing wrong.
>>
>>45311357
not really. Look at the Anarchs from VtmB. As a group their only real goal is "fuck the cammies, this here's free teritory and it's gonna stay that way, because we do whatever we damn well please."

Sure it isn't particularly nuanced or clever, but it works. It can even be a "good" faction if "the man" is oppressive and evil.
>>
>>45311482
Not really imagine if instead of boobs it was a fetish you don't like.
>>
>>45311556
THAT SICK BASTARD!
>>
>>45305405
Theros R/G was good. Orgy loving satyrs is different. They ended up hating Xenagos.
>>
>>45311482
>>
>>45311436

They seem to have fairly white/red goals, in my opinion. Shake up the establishment targeting money in politics and focus on improving the middle class. You're free to your opinion on how feasible that is but the guy's got pretty clear long-term goals based around specific groups. Trump would probably be a fairly good R/B example, since his campaign is generally more focused on his personal qualities and appeal to emotion than any actual policy plans he aims to put into effect.

>>45311580

The idea of an R/G Aphrodite figure taking Xenagos's place later on was one I liked.
>>
Why did Origins make me love Chandra? She seems so cool suddenly.
>>
>>45311483
And when the man isn't around they're just edgy rabble-rousers.
>>
>>45308801
>Being sexually abused by a gigant, lightning-vomiting dragoness
I'd rather have the man-eating Kolaghan.
>>
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>>45311066

Somebody needs to do it now.
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>>45311793
eh, not really. I don't think there's anything particularly edgy about valuing personal freedom above all else.
>>
>>45311357
So then running into Red/Black individuals would show the color combo to be a lot more interesting and diverse?
>>
>>45311871
Oops sorry I misread what you wrote and thought you said Sabbat. Now those are some pointlessly edgy folks.
>>
>>45311556
But there are no fethishes I don't like.

I'm a sick motherfucker. In a variety of meanings too.
>>
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>>45311879

As individuals, R/B characters I feel would be able to have a lot more going on than R/B factions, which are generally a group made up of people who don't play nicely with others.

Without an extremely compelling and -personal- reason for every individual in the group to work with every other one, it's a lot harder to keep an RB faction together than any other combination except possibly UB, which doesn't trust anyone, even itself.

Especially itself.
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>>45311066
9/11 jolly good show.
>>
>>45311963
So then why do U/B/R factions or people seem to be more stable than either UB or RB?
>>
>>45311963
Ideally a RB group would be a loosely organized people with similar tastes and somewhat similar goals that mostly just help one another out cause they like one another
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>>45312063
Cause it's hard to be mentally unstable after all mental functions have ceased
>>
>>45312063

Presumably there the three stabilize each other.

R gives UB the ability to empathize with others, which it is otherwise utterly incapable of doing, and with empathy comes the capacity to trust and work together with others.

U gives RB some fucking perspective and lets it consider things outside of its immediate desires and give more structure to its need for power and freedom, letting it stabilize rather than either freewheeling by itself or lashing out irrationally at everything.
>>
>>45312063
>Grixis colors
I want an incarnation of U/B/R that's interpreted as Intelligence meating Passion, producing genius guided by Ambition and a constructive desire of self-improvement.

Black doesn't always have to be about ruthlessness, it should also be the color of pursuing and fulfilling goals and self actualization.
>>
So it R/B really does need a chaperone color as a faction... Not sure if that is a good thing or not... I can see why wizards won't be making as many factions because its so limiting.
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>>45311066
Im gonna be laughing about this all night. Thank you for that post.
>>
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>>45312487
As much as I like Esper (and I really love Esper)) that would be the superior artificer shard.
>>
>>45312662
Itcould have mechanics based on artifact token generation and sacrifice them for several functions such as draw, creature / land destruction, returning artifact from the graveyard and fueling bigger artifacts.

Also mechanics that care about improving your artifacts. Can you imagine something like Level Up Artifacts?, Also really big structures like the Fortifications in Future Sight.

And the people of the plane are all like 'look at our giant cities and badass technology while you are still plowing the ground there on shitty Bant, WE BUILT THIS CITY, nigga, because we are fucking genious badasses while you people ain't SHIT. Grixis numbah one, the rest = trash'.
>>
A R/B society would likely end up objectivist nightmare. Rapture plane when?
>>
>>45313103

Well, the shard would still have basically no life force or natural resources, so their population would be cripplingly small and probably reduced to fuel for their robot overlords before long and they'd be just as close to running out of the stuff they need to keep the shard going as Esper was. Probably closer.
>>
>>45313157
>URB Shard is a machine empire utilizing humans as living batteries a la Phyrexia meets Matrix.
Don't know if want or not.
>>
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>>45313103
>>45313157
>>45313324

>"I warned them, but did they listen? Nooooooo."
>>
>>45313324
Add in consciousness transferral of the humans into the machines and you have a much less bleak world.
>>
>>45313157
it should also have been a sterile land devoid of all emotion
If wizards had gotten their shit together about red sooner, a lot of esper's artwork probably would have looked a LOT less pretty since art's more or less an entirely red thing and that etherium you used to look pretty could be used for something useful
>>
>>45315267
Nah, esper can have pretty things. It's just esper does it as a status symbol rather than for aesthetic pleasure.
>>
>>45311556
Replace boobs with feet and it makes perfect sense now.
>>
>>45315267
Why would red be art?
In Ravnica the Orzhov have all this ornate finery and their colors are black/white. Should they be red too because they like looking rich and powerful?
>>
>>45318349
Same thing as Esper. They flaunt wealth for the purpose of going "Look at all the cool shit we have," not because they actually make cool shit for its own sake.
>>
>>45318349
Compare an artist to an art collector. One has passion and creative vision, the other probably just has the money to deny pretty things to other people just because they want it and they want it now.
>>
>>45318376
But both the Artist and the Collector have something in common; they both appreciate art. They (hopefully) know good from bad, and know the true value of a piece.
>>
>>45318349
>Why would red be art?

Because red is passion and creativity, sure the other colors can go and make their places look spiffy, but the act of creating it, the effort, love and whole reason for doing it? That's red.
>>
>>45301387
It's a good ending for the multiverse because Ugin is back and without him the Eldrazi win decisively on Zendikar and then eat everything else, Tarkir included.

It's a bad ending for the khans because some of us must be sacrificed if all are to be saved. Because if we fail in this none of us will be saved, and Tarkir will be only a memory.
>>
>>45318427
But blue can also be art; red might be passion but blue would be the understanding of art. Like those pretentious critics of art going on and on about the contrast between textures, the way light is used and junk like that. In fact with Blue/Black esper artificers would be brutal critics.
>>
>>45319001
But Ugin being on Zendikar wasn't actually necessary. Sorin could have filled the same role just as easily as Ugin did, because Ugin did SHIT ALL other than explain what the Eldrazi were - which he'd already done for the millena-old-vampire.
>>
>>45319033
Blue would commit itself to making its art more 'perfect,' yes, but blue as a color doesn't really care about creative endeavors in the first place, so it would have to be blue/red.

I've realized 90% of the time blue/red is just blue doing something red already wants to do but doing it better, because it's blue.
>>
>>45319128
Sorin is a dick though; he doesn't care to save the multiverse as much as Ugin would.
>>
>>45319139
Neither does Ugin, he just wants to study the Eldrazi and roped a pair of suckers who DID want to save the multiverse (one because she's a good person, the other because that's where he keeps his stuff) into capturing them so he could do just that.
>>
>>45319136
Tell that to the Izzet and watch them laugh.
>>
>>45303172
The issue is that the Dragons took something away from the clans that helped form their identity.

I wish they had pushed the enemy color identity a little more because it was like, right there.

W/B warriors representing the ambition in Abzan .

U/R tempo, or something, representing the creativity/free spirit in Jeskai

B/G nagas, representing the resourcefulness of the Sultai

R/W tokens, representing the unity among the mardu

G/U shamans/morph, representing the lost wisdom and insight from the Temur
>>
>>45303980
It can be implied by their bragging when they do well. Maro stated on his blog several times at the time that THS and KTK were the best selling sets of all time at the time they were around.
>>
I am still mad that they got rid of the phoenix rider.
>>
>>45307802
The killing a goldfish review of scourge is brilliant about that bit
>>
>>45319317
>WB warriors

You reveal your true colors, scrub.
>>
>>45301699
Kolaghan didn't change the Mardu much beyond "Now I lead when we raid" and get them to be asses to each other and scorch the earth instead of just pillaging it.
The enslavement severity is probably
Kolaghan<Atarka<Silumgar<Ojutai<Dromoka
>>
>>45319529
i am very confused
>>
>>45319541
I mean they also became addicted to eating people. That's kind of unpleasant.
>>
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>>45311066
>waaaay up your butt
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>>45304038
Course not, they need to be broken and conquered like horses. Honestly, the 5 clans, just swapped horses and Praying Mantises and shit with dragons would have been great
>>
>>45304107
Makes sense when you put it that way.
>>
>>45305425
Too far incompetent. Take a look at Bioware's good ole' ToRtanic. Watch a video of a light sided Sith whatever. That's RB at it's best. The Sith is still a ball of ambition guided mostly by emotions and what little planning/pragmatism black can bring to red, but they're still one of the better people you could meet on the street or work under because they fucking CARE.
>>
>>45305671
Liliana's entire reason for listening to the Raven Man is because she was trying to care for her brother because she was horrified to find out he was sick. Black can care about others, but black cares about WHO it wants to care for. White tries to say "Care about everyone!" but Black says "Shut up, I only like my sister/family/bros/girlfriend" and does it's thing.

Most yanderes are probably RB. They love, and will do ANYTHING to make sure they win after all.
>>
>>45307073
Admittedly: Dragons are cool, and Kolaghan dragons are the coolest of Tarkirs. But they're terrible and need to be treated like mindless animals.
>>
>>45301690
>Freedom from the crutch of necromancy.
>Freedom from the necessity of nomadic living.
>Exchange of Scoured Barrens to Blossoming Sands
>Enslavement

THIS GUY..
>>
>Tfw you adore Temur.

Atarka is a fatcunt
>>
>>45319541
Kolaghan will attack and destroy her own forces, she doesn't talk to them outside of mindless screaming, and so do the rest of her brood if the screaming shamans are any indication.
>>
>>45319629
>>45320070
True, but they're allowed to eat other people. They just ride when Kolaghan says to.
In Atarka you feed Atarka because Atarka wants to eat. If you're not good at feeding Atarka, then Atarka will eat you.
In Silumgar you can strive to be better, and even gain authority over dragons. It is not until you start getting close to Silumgar that he decides to kill you before you get any closer. Keep your distance and be happy with your fiefdom and you're golden.
North Ojutai is North Ojutai
Dromoka is the worst parts of communist Russia only worse because now having a family is something only capitalist pig-dogs do. Also there are no Krumar because Dromoka liked the practice on paper, but out loud she had it banned. So now the Dromoka kill the babies and non-combatants instead of taking them in.
The Kolaghan are the most "free"
That said, 50% free, 30% free, it's still a failing grade.
>>
>>45320103
But we went over this; Black/Red is the worst color combination.
>>
>>45320156
Nope. See >>45319756 >>45319785
>>
>>45320195
That's dealing with an individual who represents those colors. As a group the Kolaghan are the worst.
>>
>>45320709
The kolaghan's worst aspect is that they fight eachother sometimes. They're barely enslaved if at all.
Compare that with literally every other faction and how the dragons treat the humans and it's obvious the Kolaghan are the best clan to be human in unless you think you can play the Silumgar game against the Nagas and Demons.
>>
>>45319260
Christ I love the izzet.

>>45318427
I think giving red creativity as a whole concept might be a bit much. Especially because red is also short sightedness. While many great artists would likely be red mages, I see no reason artists could not be of other colors. Admittedly though Green and White strike me as artistic colors along with blue.

Art includes the ability to convey ideas and feelings and is a demonstration of intelligence. Intelligence is blue. I also feel that giving blue the entire concept of sentience is overkill.


Can we just agree that art as a concept being red might be a bit an overstatement?
>>
>>45320835
Art as a creative medium is red
Art as an intellectual exercise is blue
Art as a cultural thing (portratis of heroes and worship and the like) is a white thing.
Art as a display of wealth or power is a black thing Indeed, Vampires on Innistrad have a handful of artists
Green doesn't get art, because it doesn't like artifice. See the root word. Alternatively, green art is old fashioned and you're pretty much only allowed to retread what ground everyone else has, no real chance to experiment on your own and create your own vision. Just like Ancient Greek sculptures that are all based on the "ideal" instead of anything else.
>>
>>45320909
>Green doesn't get art, because it doesn't like artifice. See the root word. Alternatively, green art is old fashioned and you're pretty much only allowed to retread what ground everyone else has, no real chance to experiment on your own and create your own vision. Just like Ancient Greek sculptures that are all based on the "ideal" instead of anything else.

Ya know what, fair point. I feel like respect for growth tradition and nature are all things that lend themselves to art, but that is a strong point.
>>
>>45321082
Oh you can definitely do landscapes.
But you better draw that flower exactly how that flower fucking is.
Then throw the drawing in a lake because it doesn't look anywhere near as good as the fleeting growth of the flower itself. Observe the nature, for it is the true art.
>>
>>45309322
>>45311357
>>45311963
>>45312086
There's a good, sympathetic RB orginization that I'm honestly surprised no one has mentioned yet.

RB is fiercely independent and passionate, beholden to nobody but themselves. It's dedicated to its own goals and willing to do anything to fulfill them or to protect the people and things it cares about. RB can do good but it doesn't do it because it's "the right thing to do" or out of a desire to help strangers, it does good because it happens to align with its personal goals, or because the evil guys fucked with them and RB thinks they're jerks, or for the glory and fame, or they just happened to feel like being nice at the time. In order for RB to work together it has to have some kind of shared bond or goal.

So /tg/, what comes to mind when you think of a group of extremely independent people with widely different backgrounds, personalities, and causes, held together only by their interpersonal relationships or a shared goal? Who would travel across continents, fight armies, and defy kings all to achieve their goals? Who follow their own desires above all else, which can cause both good and bad, perhaps even the opposite of what they intended since they're not very good at planning ahead? What does this group remind you of, and what would be a good organization to unite them?

It's a fucking adventures guild.
>>
>>45320835
But the Izzet are terrible; they're the worst sort of mages that everyone hates. Obscenely powerful but lacking in any form of intelligence and doing magical science without a care of whom they hurt.
>>
>>45321253
They literally keep the water flowing and the lights on, it's the same problem as Rakdos the things that make cards for a battle game makes them all seem bumfuck crazy.
>>
>>45301387
It's only a good ending if you're a half-mad irresponsible dracoboo.

Sarkhan.
>>
>>45321134
>adventures guild
No adventurer are green legend :^)
>>
>>45322352
Yeah but the good that they do is mitigated by those asshat wizards who RUN the guild.
>>
>>45321134
>dat spoiler
This is True.

Red provides the passion to fuel Black's desires, while Red balances Black's selfishness with empathy and vice-versa.
>>
>>45310696
But who would in that fight of Eldrazi v. Phyrexia doe
>>
>>45309137
So basically BR would be a democracy where everyone participates for the goal of freedom but they actually just want things to go good for themself. They would attack/denounce other organizations for not being "truly free" and subjugate and take their resources. The leaders would have to be something like grixis because they realize it's fucked up and don't care/ directly gain from it. There could also be members who are WR or even WB who believe in certain parts of the ideals of the organisation or their own view of it.
>>
>>45323572
Members could even believe that they are another color combination such as WU or even WUR as their emotions and views could only be correct and all others are wrong.
>>
>>45323620
Personally I greatly dislike how wizards treats the colour identities of organisations and peoples. They completely ignore the posibility of people being a part of a group but having their own ideals or even beliefs of what that group is. Life just isn't that one dimensional.
>>
>>45323695
Also They hardly ever explore the idea of people in a group disagreeing with its ideals but being a part of it for other reasons such as for convenience or just ignorance.
>>
>>45301387

Rebellion on Tarkir when?
>>
>>45323749
next time we go there. I can almost guarantee that's exactly what's going to happen.
>>
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>>45323745
Furthermore >>45309137 I really don't believe the colour system is bad or limited at all. Wizards just refuses to acknowledge that everything has a bit of each color in it anymore. Like how Urza was known for being rather above average in the attributes of every color, however when he was printed and in most cards he was printed in he was represented as blue as his intelligence was his greatest attribute. A lot of the time now though the charcters they make are just a stereotype of their colours.
>>
>>45323980

I want I want some dragons to join the rebels. Dromoka dragons see the bonds created through family of the Azban, Ojutai dragons who decide to explore other paths of the Jeskai way, etc.
>>
>>45323749
>>45323980
>Surrak *Motherfucking* Bearpuncher could punch out a Dragonlord/s and eat their spines in your lifetime
Holy fuck guys we just left don't make me want episode two so soon.
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>>45324064
Don't worry, it's modern WotC. They'll find a way to fuck it up.
>>
>>45324059
I don't think it is possible for dragons to do that; they're made the color they are.
>>
>>45319128
If Sorin could have done it himself he wouldn't have gone to Tarkir when the Eldrazi first broke out. Only Ugin and Nahiri knew how to use the Hedrons, and if Ugin hadn't taught Jace then the superfriends wouldn't have been able to trap Ulamog the first time, or kill both titans when that failed.
>>
>>45324577

I just want Dragons and humans to work together in a way that benefits both.
>>
>>45318349
Cause Maro himself has said so on the wizards site in an article called "seeing red"
>>
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>>45323695
>They completely ignore the posibility of people being a part of a group but having their own ideals or even beliefs of what that group is

No they don't.
>>
>>45319812
They're the worst type of slaves since they don't realize that they've been enslaved and almost all rebelliousness has been long stamped out
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>>45324018
Urza was nongreen.
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>>45324831
Except nothing involving the hedrons was needed - just someone to tell one of the four walkers who would become the Gatewatch what the Eldrazi really were.
That is Ugin's entire role in Battle for Zendikar. Letting Jace know how the Eldrazi work, which he's told Sorin in the past.
Anything Ugin's doing with hedrons is completely pointless in the end, because someone slipped a Channel in Chandra's X-spell deck.
>>
>>45327701
Hazid completely understands bant. He just doesn't care.
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>>45328053
My bad.
>>
>>45321134
A guy already mentioned shonen heroes, but yes.
>>
>>45311556
imagine if it were a BBW fetish and he turned Tarkir into Ameristan, but even fatter
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>>45311963
RB is literally 4chan
>>
>>45314034
>>45313324
What if all conscious life is subsumed by a gestalt entity á la Instrumentality tanging up everyone in NGE
>>
>>45328053
Wait. How exactly is Urza nongreen?
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>>45318407
Not all collectors appreciate art. Some just appreciate being able to flaunt a worldliness and collection signifying wealth.
>>
>>45310696

Ugin is most likely going to be a soul reflection/alternate dimension/alternate timeline version of Nicky B.

Their converted mana costs are both 8 and their ultimates are nearly mirrored versions of one another.
>>
>>45328759
He was every other color than green.

Why he isn't green should be very obvious
>>
>>45328759
He was an artificer, bro
>>
>>45329154
If it's obvious then it should be easy to explain. Burden of proof lies with you.
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>>45324064

>Zurgo Bellstriker becomes Zurgo Dragonsmasher
>Surrak becomes Surrak Dragonclaw once again, literally using the claws of dragons he has punched as a weapon
>Anafenza rebels in spirit form, ushering in an everlasting khannate as it's eternal ruler
>Sidisi, being a murderous vizir, has been plotting silumgar's downfall for years, and finally sees an opening, undead dragons everywhere
>narset is off being autistic in some other plane, but Ojutai lightens up after being gifted a dragon dildo
>>
>>45329467
So? Green doesn't cause artifice, but it doesn't exclude it.
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>>45329473
Urza cared nothing for nature, nor the status quo. To the extent that every mono-green group talk of the brother's war and Urza like he's satan himself.
He was an artificer to the extent that he wiped forests and stripped the land bare, leaving nothing but death, desolation and machinery in his wake. He was Phyrexia without the mind controlling oil and fanatic worshippers, but instead with rage and a single minded mind to destroy what he saw as wrong no matter what.

>>45329514
And Green definitely hates artifice. When was the last time green got an artificer? Or any card that interacted with artifacts on any level other than "fuck 'em?"
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>>45329569
Ah yes, the green is nature meme. Green is actually defined by instincts and codependency, Urza definitely believed in codependency as evident in his belief that all of the colors could work together. It could also be argued that in addition to red's passion, green's instinct was also involved in his decision to charge into phyrexia. Also doesn't his creation of Gerrard as a super soldier somewhat seem like the simic ideal of intelligent evolution?
Again, green doesn't "hate" artifice. It's simply not prone to alter the world around it itself, so it won't ever cause artifice. Green doesn't exclude artifice.
>>
>>45329569
>>45329692
You could very much say that he had green a lot less than each of the other colors. I would definitely agree that green is what he exhibited the least of. However he still had green in greater amounts than the average person.
>>
>>45329692
>>45329730
>Didn't notice that I said that Urza himself also hated the status quo.
>"It's simply not prone to alter the world around it itself, so it won't ever cause artifice"
>Didn't read the part where Urza single-handedly turned huge-ass swaths of Dominaria into strip-mined barren landscapes because you you tried to write it off as "hurr nature"
>Green's instinct when he decided to switch to phyrexia
So, putting together a team of different resources so you can alpha strike that enemy you hate so much in order to "save" a plane is a green action now? Not a white action? Someone tell Gideon that he's stepping on Nissa's area here.
It's where they overalp, but mono-white does it just as well as mono-green. Better in-fact, because mono-white grabs everyone it can, mono-green tends to grab certain types of things.
And ironically, no. The simic breed and create superior redators through gene splicing and genetic rearranging and all that fun. Urza created Gerrard as a human perfected, which is a WU sentiment, not a GU. He isn't trying to acclimate Gerrard with the rest of society, he created a weapon, a tool to be used to destroy phyrexia, no different than one of Nahiri's swords.

Green is three things: It CAN be nature, which Urza gives no shits about. It CAN also be instinct, which sapient things really aren't that good at. It can be a love of the past and conservative mindsets, which Urza doesn't concern himself with. He'd bulldoze an ancient tomb to make a power plant. There is nothing really green about Urza.
>>
>>45329692
"What does the color despise? What negatively drives the color?

Green accepts that change is a part of the natural process. What green can't stand is unnatural change, where an outside force alters something that was not meant to be changed. This comes out in two different ways. The first is when someone creates something that was never supposed to exist. This dislike of man-made things is a big reason that green hates artifacts (and to a lesser extent, enchantments). There is no greater slap to the face than someone trying to usurp the natural process of creation.

Second, green can't stand things being removed from nature inorganically. The ecosystem is so carefully balanced that the unnatural removal of a component can throw everything off. Kill a bunch of predators and, all of the sudden, the prey start growing in number. This can have devastating consequences if left unchecked.

Basically, green feels a strong connection with the status quo, so any attempt to change it through artificial means makes green very angry."
http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/making-magic/its-not-easy-being-green-revisited-2015-08-10
Yes, green hates artifacts. A whole fucking lot.
>>
>>45329692
Codependency isn't the same as cooperation you retard

Nature is an important aspect of green and has been stated as such from Alpha and restated countless times to this day, you retard

Green alters the world all the fucking time. It kills lands, it predates, it destroys artifice. It actively attempts to remove artifice from the world.
Just because it's altering the world back to what it would be if someone else hadn't altered it first doesn't mean it's not an active process, you retard. Green actively destroys artifice, it's opposed to it.

Basically go fuck yourself, moron.
>>
>>45327628

>A scalelord of the Dromoka feels doubt as they face Anafeza's rebellion. It watched over many of these humanoids their entire lives, and their lives had been...important to it in a way its distant brothers and sisters never were. And there is power in these heretical practices...maybe even opportunity.
>A dragon of the Ojutai, feeling in his heart that the dissent he has been sent to weed out makes some valid points, and decides to follow his impulse to question authority and turns away from the Great Teacher's dogma to help his human friends
>A kolaghan dragon, badly wounded and left behind by the horde for falling behind, is saved from dying of thirst by a group of outcasts protecting each other in the lands Kolagahn razed for kicks. Feeling an odd sense of obligation to the weaklings that saved her and curious about how they come together to be strong, the dragon begins to follow them.
>An Artaka dragon hunting a rebel group of shaman is ambushed and defeated, but not killed. Feigning unconsciousness, it overhears its enemies speaking of the "three destinies" and reading its future in order to defeat it. For the first time in its life, the dragon feels curiosity about the power to see beyond the now.
>A Silumgar dragon gets lost hunting escaped slaves. It is fearful at first that Silumgar will slay it for failure, but it finds an odd sense of contentment in the forests, feeling more at home than it did among the shambling dead and gaudy decorations Silumgar surrounds himself with. Fear turns to contempt; the Dragonlord has grown soft, surrounded by trinkets and flatterers. He has forgotten what it is to be a true dragon, to be a hunter. The humans doing what they must to survive in the wilderness are more worthy to rule than the slugs languishing in their palaces, but they need a strong dragon to lead them...
>>
>>45329968
>>45329939
>>45329922
I concede to you. I had no idea what green actually stood for, and I've made a huge ass of myself because I thought I did. I apologize for my ignorance and stupidity.
Basically GG. You're correct and I'm wrong.
>>
How strong is an elder Dragon?
>>
>>45330754

Probably one of the strongest things on their respective planes. Comparable to a god on Theros, I would say.
>>
>>45327735
You're probably one of those damn hippies who thinks Brave New World isn't a utopia.
>>
>>45330590

Hey, this is 4chan. That isn't how an argument is supposed to end. You call him a faggot this instant.
>>
>>45330905
Oh yeah I forgot where we were.
>>45329922
You're um, you're a faggot.
Ha, I really showed you.
>>
>>45301387
It was good for Sarkhan because he gets to be a dragon dick-sleeve again, which is his entire reason for being apparently. But it was bad for everyone else.
>>
>>45330590
Nah, you weren't that bad. You knew more than most do - most people think it's just MUH NATURE and that's it, there's nothing else to it.
The thing about artifacts and green is that green is all about the status quo - that you should be where you are and accept it. It is your destiny.
But artifacts kind of have this rather large tendency to put you past that point, to unbalance how things are. To make you more than what you are inherently. And green does Not Like That.
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>>45331862
Hm, that actually makes green a bit more interesting than I thought it was.
Thank you for teaching me.
>>
>>45329475
Is Taigam dead in the alternate timeline? He could become the khan by disobeying Ojutai.
>>
>>45332066
Huh? Why would he be dead? He became a good guy in the alt timeline.
>>
Is it too much to ask for more time travel shenanigans? I want past and currents kahns fucking up Dragons togther.
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>>45332146
he's more evil now actually
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>>45332163
God, I need to catch up on the URs.

The last one I read was about the Dragon Style Twins and was completely irrelevant.
>>
>>45307689
>>45307942
So in Return to Tarkir are we going to see the original clan chiefs take shit back from the dragons and restoring the clans to wedges? L
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>>45301699
i think you mean Dromoka not Atarka.
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>>45332186
Well he works for north korea, what did you fucking expect
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>>45301387
I can't remember but what was Ugin's thought on his weird "sorta kids" stomping around Tarkir like they're hot shit.

He struck me as a "maintain the balance of nature" kind of guy.

When he was dead the dragon storms died out and as such their immortality/reincarnation was destroyed and clans fight eachother.

When he's comatose instead the dragons overrun the smaller races and set up their own little fiefdoms and dictatorships.
>>
>>45303197
I'm thinking the Dragon Storms did more than just shit out dragons. And might've had something to do with maybe the enriching of the land? They replaced the Fetchlands (which yeah I know are mechanically better but were thematically super finite dragon corpses) with Evolving Wilds in DTK, as if there is some... ecological force that creates new things albeit slowly.
>>
It would be really cool if the resurging clans shifted their main color, taking up the one they're trying to impose to the dragons. So Abzan becoming mainly black, Temur mainly blue etc.
>>
>>45313139
I would wonder what an art deco/noir plane might be like.
>>
>>45321082

I think that Green is a really natural ADDON to any other colour for art but not the source of the art itself.

Like Red/Green could be a nature loving artist who is inspired by the beauty of nature. The passion of a charging lion, the serenity of a mountain stream. Nature makes them feel emotions more deeply but it's the emotions that the art springs from.
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>>45319001

>Go as far as changing fucking history to brink back a guy who is ABSOLUTELY ESSENTIAL to beating the Eldrazi
>Succeed
>Proceed to ignore every single word that comes out of his mouth and do the one thing he said that they shouldn't do

"I know better than you, ancient brilliant dragon god." ~Jace the Living Shithead
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>>45330551

I'll take it.
>>
I want to take a dragon's thick scaly cock right to the hilt in my weak, fertile human cunt and have him breed me like the worthless toy I am. The fact that there are no dragons is tremendously unfair.
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