Paladins, law, and falling

that's the part where you get up and leave because your DM is shit. he has deliberately orchestrated a situation to attempt to force you to fall.

any dm that tries that shit is not worth playing with.

i'm assuming that you wouldn't fall unless you start worshipping sarenrae .

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>>45285971

>there are still people who think Lawful Good means "obey all laws without question"

>>45285971
Any old orcish loser could promulgate a law demanding something inane, like slavery, ritual murder, human sacrifice, or Excessive Rape.

A paladin isn't obligated to obey just because someone had the wherewithal to write it down.

>>45285971
>abadur
Who the fuck is this?

>>45285971
You are a moron.

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>>45285971

>>45285971

No, and no.

>>45286076
>there are still people who think Lawful Good means "obey all laws without question"

That disgusts me.

The other one I hate is the guy who wants to play the 'Extremist' Paladin. The kind of Palatard who'll burn *everyone* in a village if a single villager got possessed by a demon, saying "Well if any of them are innocent, now they're martyrs and the gods will reward them in the afterlife".

It's like these players see Good and Evil as just two opposing sides in a war, and don't think about what 'Good' actually means morally. They think that if you do things in the name of the Good side that makes the actions Good too, but DnD has never worked like that. Took me 15 minutes to explain to a guy that this kind of 'Extremist' Paladin is performing acts that are inherently Evil, and is basically a Lawful Evil character serving Lawful Good masters.

>>45287163
it would appear that lawful good and chaotic evil follow the horseshoe theory of politics: both alignments when taken to the extreme are actually the same behavior.

>>45287445
No, because lawful goodness is objective. It's not some relative garbage; massacring the innocent is Very Bad with a capital B. That never changes.

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>it's a "lol the paladin falls because I put him in a retarded catch-22 thread"
>it's a "paladins have to be more devoted to their gods than clerics even though the paladin code says nothing about their god and worshiping a god isn't even a requirement of the class" thread
>it's a "OP is a giant cock-gobbling faggot" thread

>>45287979
I wonder how many paladins have actually been put in those shitty baby or the nun situations.

>>45285971
A Paladin doesn't need to follow laws in general. They just need to follow the laws they've dedicated themselves to, and generally believe that having rules is good and doing things in an orderly and organized fashion is for the best.

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>>45289344

It's cliche to say, but Cap really is a good example of what a Paladin *should* be like.

Would he really be Captain America if he just went lock-step behind whatever the people in charge said? A big part of his character is his distaste for Nazis, after all.

No, because worshipping your deity would be an unlawful act, not an evil one. Even so, this particular infringement wouldn't scuff the paladin's overall alignment, on the account of him prioritizing the laws of his god and his (presumedly) divine mission over arguably tyrannical regional laws. However, in respect to the Kingdom's authority, the paladin should pray/worship in secret , as not to deliberately incite unrest.

Going to have to wrangle yourself some better bait, OP.

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>>45291742
I disagree. Cap follows his own morals, not that of a higher power.

On the other hand, my picture is a true paladin.

>>45287163
but evil and good are quantifiable substances in D&Dverse

>>45294694

Following your own morals isn't unlawful. They might just happen to be pretty lawful morals. I'd say they both qualify as Paladins, both in the D&D and general sense of the word.

>>45294954
This.

Cap follows his own code. But it just so happens that code is both A) one he feels everyone should follow and B)is largely objectively ethical and moral.

He's Lawful Good through and through

>>45294694

You have a really shitty picture of a paladin..

The Judge is Lawful Neutral and quite possibly the best example of such.

0/10 DM. would not play alignment-restricted classes with.

>>45295342

You have a really 1st-through-3rd edition D&D picture of a paladin.

Dress tiptoes the edge but I think he could be called a paladin. He genuinly sees it as his duty to serve and protect the LAW ABIDING citizens of megacity one.

>>45295361

I don't even think you know what you are saying any more.

But yeah, stick to your edgelord games where paladins are grimdark and chaotic neutral characters are lol randumb and obviously the good guys or some shit.

>>45285971
>You're a paladin of abadur, who has to go to a kingdom where the state sanctioned god is Sarenrae, and worship of any other god is illegal. Do you fall, merely by walking into the city? Is any time you fail to mention your god, do you fall?
Playing 5E and Fantasy Craft. Fuck off.

>>45295389

Yeah Law Abiding only. Even if they misuse the law, as long as it is in the books as a law, it's perfectly legitimate.

Look, we can argue the alignment of poorly written fictional characters all day, but a DM who says a paladin has to be a tightass and has to be a zealous douchebag isn't a good DM, that's all I wanted to point out.

>>45295400

You're either purposefully being dense or you actually don't know the systems that enforce the paladin archetype that you're so upset about.

>>45295426
I agree, HAS to be is a no no. CAN is something I'm open minded about.

>>45295470

Seriously, I don't think you actually know what you are saying. Stop foaming at the mouth and go play your shitty weeb inspired edgelord game where the paladins are dicks because they have to be and the 5-belt wearing super saiyan drow/kitsune hybrid chaotic neutral fag is the hero. If that's the game you wanna play, I'm not going to stop you but I'm certainly not joining your subpar group.

Does anyone have the picture of the paladin stating that 'he is willing to do evil with no misconception that it is good, only necessary' I saw it a few days ago and couldn't save it at the time.

>>45295933

You talking about this scene from Serenety?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rxcTDoE_Kbg

>>45295983
No, but that is pretty close to the sentiment. Its just a picture with writing on it. If I can't find it in the next week I'll just make something similar for myself.

>>45287163
>"Well if any of them are innocent, now they're martyrs and the gods will reward them in the afterlife".
Never thought about that like this.
I will use this line for future smiting.

>>45287163
>see Good and Evil as just two opposing sides in a war
but that's what they are in D&D
it's like Kingpriest of Istar in Dragonlance. while what he did was unquestionably evil by our standards, by D&D cosmology it was perfectly Good and caused a universal disbalance by making Good stronger than Evil.

>>45294694
All paladins follow their own morals, dipshit. They just have Lawful Good morals.

They wouldn't be paladins if they didn't believe in what they did, silly.

>>45297037
>Dragonlance

Stopped reading there

Daily reminder the best kind of 'paladin' is a fighter without any magical powers, and therefore can take actions that he sees fit to uphold his creed or do the right thing without having to get shit on constantly for 'potential to fall'

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>>45297964
>the best kind of steak is a hamburger

Nice one, champ

>>45285971
A:it doesent matter what God the paladin worships
B:disallowing the worship of other non evil gods is evil as fuck and sarenrae would not allow it there's accepting difrences in religious practices and then there's people spiting in the face of your values in your name.
Abador is not going to expect any worshiper to follow such a shitty law.

>>45297548
I stopped releasing at imbalence of good and evil

Althogh that was at the end so it was more that that was what made me disregade it.

>>45294728
Yeah but its also very clear on the matter of ends never justify the means

>>45295361
Seems like a good view to have 4e wasent truely d&d and 5e is a steaming pile of shit.

>>45285971
holy shit you're retarded

>>45297964
Except you know falling is something that happens so rarely its a non issue

If falling is ever on your mind your doing it wrong there's only 2 questions a paladin needs to ask themself.
1.is this the right thing to do
1.am I using poisons or traps to do this.

>>45299040
*I stopped reading
Nor sure how the hell I got releasing there

>>45287163
>>45296555
That line of thought has been used in real life though...

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>>45294694
He follows the highest power. Liberty and Justice for all.

>>45299291
That last panel is probably the best summary of Captain America I've ever seen. Screw all the page long speeches he's made THIS is what cap truly stands for.

>>45285971
no.

Read Daniel. that's what would happen.

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>>45300386

Basically this. Cap sees America as a set of values, not a list of rules passed down by any parts of its government.

Which is what Lawful Good is supposed to be.

>>45285971
>Do you fall?
You've already lost because you're a complete retard if you think Lawful Good and Worship of gods have anything to do with the laws of men, beyond sometimes intersecting by happenstance.

You don't need to follow the law to be lawful good, you need to be consistent about doing good, which is not the same. A lawful good person does not condone slavery just because slavery is legal, neither does he brand someone as evil for breaking a law.

A person worshiping a god does not magically stop doing so if they don't mention it or if they go somewhere where only worshipers of another god is allowed, unless those things are explicitly forbidden by some retarded god.

Staying alive by saying
>no, sirree, I totes worship that... guy with the horns there on your temple statues. He seems swell!
Is not the same as rejecting your god.

>>45301254
>You don't need to follow the law to be lawful good, you need to be consistent about doing good, which is not the same. A lawful good person does not condone slavery just because slavery is legal, neither does he brand someone as evil for breaking a law.

That sounds more like Chaotic Good than Lawful.

>>45301341
Neutral Good desu

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>>45285971
ok, kinda weird question, but if a paladin were to be a sword saint, what would be its tenets, oath, duties, etc?

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>>45301341

Not him, but the difference is the Lawful Good person also acts with some kind of authority. And on some level they believe their values are ones other people should try to strive for as well.

A Chaotic Good person just kind of does what he thinks is right. It's also a little more cynical.

Cap is Chaotic Good because he subscribes to a rigid moral philosophy and communicates it frequently. He thinks society is better when everyone is Good and tries to lead by example to achieve that. He upholds the Law when the Law is Good, and he does Good in order to maintain Law.

Batman is Chaotic Good because he's pretty rogue. He's not out to change hearts and minds, and he's not a social philosopher. He does Good because it's the right thing for him--Batman--to do.

>>45301402
1. Find other people with swords
2. Fight them in honorable duels
3. ????
4. Seppuku

>>45302048
>Seppuku
It's "sudoku", you idiot

>>45302090
No it's not, it's Hare-krishna