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7th Sea 2nd Edition Quickstart
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You are currently reading a thread in /tg/ - Traditional Games

Thread replies: 109
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It's finally here!

Interesting points:

>Basic mechanic is completely revised. Surprisingly, NOT into a version of the Houses of the Blooded system! John Wick can actually do MORE THAN ONE THING! It's still kind of similar but I think it's like the first time in a decade it hasn't been the EXACT FUCKING SAME!
>Mechanically speaking, characters get MORE powerful as they get wounded. That's... actually genuinely interesting. I don't remember seeing this being done too many other places.
>Fate Witches STILL need to kiss people to give them curses and it still makes no fucking sense. Why would anyone in their right minds allow a witch to kiss them if this is a commonly known fact? Much less if they're in an adventuring situation where the social obligations of Vodacce don't take hold.
>There are still dueling rules.
>Still no information about what's the Sarmatians' native magic. Teasers.
>>
Anyone got a download link?
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>>45232257
/tg/ supports pdfs, anon-chan~
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>>45232269
... Oh. Thought it was just an image.

Just failed a Spot check.
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>>45232225
My fucking God, he only put A FRACTION OF AN ADVENTURE THERE, and he actually has the gall to act smug about it. Way to fucking go, Wick.
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>>45232405
Hey, on the bright side, we've got Poland being turned into a direct democracy.
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>>45232405
Do you understand what a quickstart is?
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>>45232225
>>Mechanically speaking, characters get MORE powerful as they get wounded. That's... actually genuinely interesting. I don't remember seeing this being done too many other places.
Dafuq? Is that intentional or did Wick forget to send his text to the editor and fuck up the underlying mathematics again?
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>>45232564
Probably intentional. The game is going for dramatic action, not realism. As things get dire you get a higher probability of pulling off a crazy idea.
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>>45232563
Normally, it either includes a full adventure or just the rules. It IS unusual to only include parts of it.
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>>45232555
I kinda liked that he bothered to expand the Eastern Europe of the setting beyond just "Russia".
Maybe someone will fix the goddamn map now.
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>>45232564
It's a very good thing. Far more interesting and dramatic than death spiral, and fits the feel of the game.
i just hope it wasn't stolen wholesale from tenra bansho
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>>45232942
No, not really.
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>>45232753
That's a pretty enormous change from the 1st edition. Pretensions of being about swashbuckling pirates aside, 7th Sea has always been, mechanically, pretty simulatnionsit.
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>>45233033
Notable examples?

Mind you, I'm not talking about adventures which have just one scene. That's by design, since they were made for the quickstart. I'm talking about just cutting them in pieces.
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>>45233038
Simulationist systems are dying out anyway.
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>>45233038
I think that was more due the era where it was published in more then anything, and Wick himself is a direct product of that period.
A lot of games in that period had high lethality and "realism" and very crunch-heavy stuff going on with them.
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>>45233075
Not really, they're just becoming as niche as narrative stuff used to be.
I understand the basic logic; the more clunky and time-consuming a system is to learn, the more you're going to turn off people who are just there for a good time anyway, as a video game will often give them something similar only they DON'T have to do the math; to whit, how many threads are "how can I play this exact game character in this system?" I think there's an XCOM one on the board right now.
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>>45233038
>Pretensions
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>>45232225
>Basic mechanic is completely revised. Surprisingly, NOT into a version of the Houses of the Blooded system! John Wick can actually do MORE THAN ONE THING! It's still kind of similar but I think it's like the first time in a decade it hasn't been the EXACT FUCKING SAME!

I dunno, but it smells a lot like a slightly upgraded HotB system. It is just that the Wagers are now calculated differently.
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>>45233136
7th Sea, while selling itself as being a game about swashbuckling pirates, was not that in practice. It could not be, because the mechanics didn't allow for it. Characters started out far too inept, progressed far too slowly, and were encouraged to play it safe and avoid swashbuckling stunts because they needed every last bit of XP they could scrap.

So yes, pretensions.
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>>45233068
Lady Blackbird off the top of my head. And how is "only one scene by design" any different than two scenes that are meant to be part of an ongoing story?
>>
Mechanically the game seems pretty solid, very different from first edition, but pretty solid. I might throw my money at this to see what else this has to offer.
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>>45233240
Because "one scene by design" adventures have a very clear beginning, escalation, climax and ending. They don't feel like half baked pieces of a larger story.

Reading a short story is a very different experience from reading a single chapter from the middle of a longer one.

>Lady Blackbird

That's the very definition of having a single adventure by design. The point of the system is that it throws characters in the water with a scenario that's meant to be expanded upon by them. It's not a "part" of anything. There is no complete Lady Blackbird adventure out there. There is no "canon story".

So no, not a good example. Try again.
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>>45233199
Just because you were to concerned with advancing rather than having fun doesn't mean the system didn't encourage it.
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>>45233326
Given that your character started off as an incompetent cripple, if you weren't concerned with advancing you were doomed to remain that way forever.

However you played, you could not become the swashbuckling hero the book promised you could be. You certainly couldn't match any of the NPCs.
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>>45233326
Kinda hard to have fun when your character dies every time you do something fun.
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>>45233305
No thanks. You're just being a whiny bitch.
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>>45233372
Not the same guy but in the games I've played my characters have been fairly component.
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>>45233326
Most characters I played with the initial rules couldn't ride a horse, slide down banisters, swing from objects, sail, balance on shaky surfaces, or run a chase scene if I also wanted a Swordsman's School. The two things were too expensive to do at the same time in the standard system; you literally needed different skills for every single one of those things I mentioned.
We generally houseruled cheaper Schools and 50 more build points at character creation so we could do more creative action scenes.
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Two questions, both about the character sheets. There doesn't appear to be much info, but maybe I'm just being blind.

Firstly, the first "wounded" level says it gives +1d6. I assume that should be +1d10?

Secondly, the weapon skill has two odd overlay-things saying "re-roll" at levels 2 and 4. What is, what do, and how?
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>>45233404
If you were playing by the rules as written, that means you were lucky. People did the maths, the average difficulties compared to the average abilities of a starting characters mean that they will fail most interesting actions (including nearly all combat actions) more often than not if they do not expand drama dice. This may have been intentional, except for the fact that you desperately need those drama dice to get better. Either way, you never get to use them because you either have to spend them immediately on any trivial task to make it likely you'll succeed in it, or you'll keep them so that one mythical day you have a chance to do it by yourself like you're some kind of half-competent swashbuckler or something.

And the cost of both Sorcery and Swordsman Schools is so ridiculously high that a character who chooses either can all but forget about having any other interesting qualities, advantages or backgrounds.
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>>45233402
At least I'm not being wrong, unlike you.
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>>45233469
I guess I had more experience starting out because I had some pretty epic fights towards the beginning. I was the combat monkey.
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>>45233270
I dunno, but this "assemble your dice results into pools of 10+" sounds rather unpleasant. It makes most of your high results worthless as excessive numbers don't "flow over" but get wasted. In fact, the system ensues that no matter what, you will get exactly half as much Raises as the number of dice rolled (unless you roll awesome with lots of 10s or you roll terrible with lots of <5s). Not to mention that the local autist will spend hours with gathering his results into the perfect order.
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Tell me, what's the closest thing to Jews in 7th Sea?
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>>45233751
Last edition is was either the Fhideli (Gypsies), those with the sorcery El Fuego Adentro (hiding from the Inquisition), or if you're especially anti-semitic and not familiar with Dutch stereotypes, the Vendel.
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>>45233751
Weirdly enough, there aren't any.
They have fantasy Muslims and fantasy Catholics, fantasy Protestants, fantasy Eastern Orthodoxies, and several real-life inspired splinter groups of all, but Judaism seems nonexistent.
Many people have pointed out how odd this is given that the setting hardly shied away from knocking off other religions
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>>45233751
Both the Fhideli and the entire Vendel nation have traits stereotypically associated with Jews, though thus far the developers have (wisely) chosen not to include a more obvious stand-in. That didn't stop numerous fans from trying.
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>>45233817
>>45233831
I thought the Fhideli were definitely a Romany analogy? They use several notable Romany phrases for one.
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>>45233827
One problem with the history of the setting is that, as it is, it doesn't allow for Judaism to exist because the first prophet comes from within Rome itself and already goes on to create Christianity. There's not real history from before "Rome" (unless you're counting all the ancient astronauts shenanigans) so there's nowhere for the Jews to originate from chronologically.

Off the top of my head, maybe make them an ancient tribe from the areas of the Crescent who were practicing a certain religion for thousands of years, and at some point during his life the Prophet finds himself in the desert (maybe escaping from persecution?) and, living among them, decides to adopt elements of it.
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>>45233870
Well, like I said, Gypsies.
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>>45233870
The Fhideli are obviously gypsies and the Vendel are obviously Dutch. As people have said, there are no "Jews" stand ins. They simply share some stereotypes that are sort of useful if you want to create a "Jewish-like" character. Fhideli, being penniless, persecuted wanderers fit well with the East European stereotype of Jews, while the Vendel, being ruthless merchants and sacrilegious scientists fit with the West European stereotype.
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>>45233873
True that.
Actually, when I was younger and more ignorant then now it was 7th Sea that got me into Western/Eastern European history in general, though admittedly by the time I'd gotten done educating myself in such things it turned me off to many aspects of 7th Sea due to the overly simplified nature of it's history.
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Being that we are talking about history - how are they going to add a huge country in the middle of the setting? Retconing the whole history?
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>>45233873
One of the fan versions did it. The tribe (they were called something in a version of Hebrew, something like "Yodaim" or "Yudeim" or something like that) is among the first human civilizations, and has existed long before Numa. They were civilized for so long partially due to fiddling with Syrenth technology, which they've mystified into the basis of their religion since they could not comprehend it as anything but magic. Their sorcery style was to create golems. In truth, it wasn't even a real sorcery - it was just science so advanced that no human (even thousands of years later) has any way of putting it otherwise. The rituals involved in golem creation appear completely arcane but in fact they are simply half-forgotten, half-improvised instructions for manipulating the Syrenth technology of creating life.
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>>45233943
Why do all Eastern slavs want to pretend that the center of Europe is situated in their country?
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>>45233943
Seems to be the only way of going about it. It seems like in this continuity, the Sarmatian Commonwealth and its lands has been a thing for centuries. You can't just stick that on a setting and say "yeah, they're a new development."
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>>45232993
Imho more games should rip off Tenra Bansho Zero. Positive death spiral, every attack comes with a counterattack attached etc.
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Read. All. Many times. Only one thing. I really, really, really hope that they are going to make it compatible with the First Edition.
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>>45233972
HUE, I'm brazilian. I just think that Ussura and Cathay are huge enough so that anything on the East is center.

>>45233991
That's what I was afraid of. Wonder what else they might add - or remove.
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>>45234010
>That's what I was afraid of. Wonder what else they might add - or remove.

AFRAID of? It's about time they fix the setting's history of geography. I wouldn't mind it one single bit. It's been one of the worst things about it. So long as they're handled well, I don't mind if they add even more. I'd like to see some kind of Jewish religion equivalent, as someone mentioned above. I want to see the Secret Societies changed. I wished to see changes to some of the Sorcery styles (make Porte less useless, maybe change it entirely. Make Glamour less overpowered, maybe change that. Make Sorte less retarded, but I guess that's not where the wind is blowing, etc.)
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>>45234054
I'm lazy as fuck. Don't wanna re-learn the setting.
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>>45234054
>45234054
The only thing that they keep from the first edition sistem is the traits+skill and the advantages

The rest its other game
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Samurai in the living room - AEG deliberately made Cathayian equivalents of all the East Asian countries (Korea, Vietnam, Tibet, etc.) EXCEPT Japan, as a bit of a company joke about how their other setting of Rokugan had a Japan equivalent but missed most of the others.

Wick is known for his... "interest" in Japan.

Is he going to add it to the setting?
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>>45234118
>inb4 katanas are naturally superior to dracheneisen swords
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>>45234172
Circumstantial reminder that dracheneisen is fossilized dragon poop.
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>>45234118
You know, I liked most of the Cathayan countries but the complete lack of Syrneth stuff in it's collective history makes me wonder if it was even written by someone familiar with the setting and not just dropped in there.
Not that I was overly fond of Extradimensional Alien Conspiracy metaplot, but I do live the "advanced precursor race with alien technology" thing (it's rather Assassin's Creed-ish).
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>>45233469
Not that anon, but I think we played by the rules, and it was possible to make a competent character, just it weren't that diversive. 2 at all stat except finesse, which is 3, and brawn is 1, and with a hubris, fencing with attack and parry 3, and one or two other skills, and that's it.
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>>45234200
Actually it's fossilized dragon REMAINS.
And it's actually a ceramic.
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>>45234229
>(it's rather Assassin's Creed-ish).
So, who's going to give money to the Kickstarter for editions 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 and 8-19?
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>>45234244
I'm afraid the reference escapes me.
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>>45234242
That's another thing. The RULEBOOK ITSELF tries to sabotage your attempts at making a competent character. As you've noted, one of the only ways of going about it is forgoing high Attributes and hyperspecializing on skills. The BOOK ITSELF, though, HIGHLY RECOMMENDS you get a 3,3,2,2,2 spread of basic attributes.

Counting the starting 1,1,1,1,2 spread you get for free (Nation bonus) that means you spend very nearly HALF of your points during character creation on nothing but attributes. And you're even more encouraged to do that due to the Drama stat being based on your lowest Attribute - you dumpstat even one of them, you have to make do with just 1 Drama die.

With Sorcery and Swordsmanship costing what they do, that means that, if you go by the book's terrible advice, a starting sorcerer would have left like... 10 points, to spend on literally EVERYTHING else. That's assuming they didn't decide to get Noble with their Sorcery, which is a waste.
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>>45234314
You can give 50px to start and more or less all was solved.

Be swordman and sorcerer was something really excepctional. Only for last boss like Remy du Montaigne.
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>>45233827
>Muslims
Oh good, I think if we yell enough online we can get this guys books taken off all bookshelves and pdf services.
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>>45234382
There likely won't be a book which means you can yell all you want and nobody will care.
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>>45234435
Depends on how the Kickstarter goes. Wick did manage to KS some of his former projects. Problem is, sometimes he didn't manage... and I've got a feeling this one's gonna need a hell of a lot more money than any of his previous ones. What with being in full color and, you know, having art.
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>>45235078
Yeah, exactly.
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>>45235110
On the other hand, 7th Sea already has a respectable fanbase/history (so far as tabletop games go), and the fact that he's been able to present as much as he did right now shows that he's got at least some initial funding (and isn't just looking for people to finance the entire project like some kickstarters). In fact, it may be possible that it's now in a condition where he could afford to release it without the Kickstarter, albeit in a poor shape (these are the best book Kickstarter - ironically, ensuring to the potential backers that your project won't die out whether or not they donate is a surefire way to get them confident enough to give donations). It probably won't gather as much money as an offer from Onyx Path to knit World of Darkness themed socks, but it MIGHT gather enough for the project not to die out completely.

I won't say it's a 100% thing, but I won't flat out dismiss the possibility.
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>>45235078
I imagine that they might do a PDF with a print on demand version rather than just printing the game outright.
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>>45235175
>>45235211
Seems to be the likeliest case, in my opinion. Odds are, there's probably a serviceable PDF out there (or at least the resources to create it). Whether or not the Kickstarter succeeds will simply determine whether it ends up being a mostly black and white, almost text-only document or whether it'll be completely full color with plenty of illustrations and the such. Realistically, the odds of there ever being produced physical books, much less in hardcover, are low. These are simply not as profitable today as they once were and they cost a lot. Only the really big companies can afford to produce lots of them.
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What's the Polish sorcery style? Vodkomancy?
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>>45235967
I don't know what it's called but it involves ritualistically dancing in a circle.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APnPH9u8-zs
>>
It's the Fool's Day? Somebody more than me readed that? If you like the 7th Sea (First Edition) RUN! RUN FOR YOUR LIVE!
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>>45236023
Ah, so that's what the dance does. It summons more Slavs that talk broken english.
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>>45236017
You can gain a free Raise by utilizing Spirit Squat.
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>>45235967
Is that divination through vodka?
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Mirage for Montaigne national sorcery
A variant of Scrying (female) for Avalon national sorcery
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I had zero expectations about this, read the rules, thought "not bad". The duel thingy in theroy has a whole fast fencing feeling to it. I will need to playtest it and check if it works as it is described on paper
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It seems better than I had thought it was going to be.

Saying that, but does it seem that their solution to any problem is "there's a secret door"? Seems it gets brought up more than it should in their Risk examples.
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>>45236995
Systems that rely very heavily on narrative control (stuff like "the player gets to declare one fact for each success" or such) rarely tend to realize just how little place there truly is for absolute creativity in some situations. There're only so many varied things that can reasonably happen as a result of a dice roll that wouldn't destroy the game.

Having secret doors get revealed appears to be a favorite of Wick.

Speaking of Wick, I've tried to run a game of his - Schauermarchen, which does use the "state one fact per success" shtick. We switched to using a different system as soon as everyone around the table awkwardly realized that you can't give the players such freedom but have a highly detailed setting with a highly specific storyline at the same time. Wick intended for events to happen in a very specific way in a very specific order and for them to lead to a very specific conclusion - but that's just not possible when the players get to make the story in their own image with every roll.
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>>45237331
It's typical of him. John Wick is obsessed with railroading players to a ridiculous degree (read his game, Thirty. The specificity of actions the characters need to perform to progress at any point is just absurd, and there aren't any ways around it), but at the same time, can't stop talking about how great it is to give them narrative control and build his every mechanic around it. Well, the only mechanic he's used in the last decade, really.

I can only imagine that his regular players, as part of their Stockholm syndrome, have eventually developed a habit of making their "stated facts" on success be things like "...and I have a charming glint in my eye as I do it!... And my hair looks sort of nice!... Annnd... I scratch my nose...!" *hopeful, slightly terrified look up to John*
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The degree of dissonance between his narrative mechanics and the presented (highly railroad-y) adventure is pretty amazing.
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>>45237578
See
>>45237331
>>45237449

(which is to say, I agree wholeheartedly)
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>>45237449
>Annnd... I scratch my nose

>Scratch your nose, you say... Okay, it falls off - it turns out you have incurable flesh-rotting disease.
>This should teach you not to attempt to game the system.
>-5 nose points.
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>>45237620
>B-but John, I-I spent 10 points during character creation to b-buy "immunity to nose effects"...
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>>45237661
>That immunity only covered your ability to smell things.
>Oh by the way i forgot - you caught this disease because you were too filthy and didn't notice it.
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>>45237449
Having been GMed by him twice at cons, I can tell you that actual player freedom is so antithetical to his mindset that it for some reason makes him deeply uncomfortable.
He honestly should have just been a novelist or something. His writing is shit but he'll die before he ever gets what he actually wants out of a group I think.
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>>45232564
Looks 100% intentional. You get more dice the more Dramatic Wounds you take, up to 3 at 3 Dramatic Wounds. Then you die when taking the 4th wound. So you'll probably succeed and your daring last stand, but goddamn, you are close to death.
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>>45237714
>*John's hardon overturns the table*
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>>45237714
>>45237661
>>45237620

Either someone on the team desperately needed to counter this perception of John or this document was written by Bizzarro Wick. I mean, seriously, look at this excerpt from the quick start:

>The GM and Consequences
>The GM has a huge responsibility. The players came to your table to have fun. Your job is to make sure that happens. You could use Consequences to make the Heroes’ lives more interesting and dramatic, or you could use them to simply screw the Heroes over.
>Don’t choose the second option. Ever.
>Your players want their Heroes to be just that: heroes. They are the protagonists of this story. They want to feel like swashbuckling legends and you should help them reach that goal. Yes, protagonists fail from time to time, but we’re providing a mechanic for players to choose when their Heroes fail. Let them use it. Remind them to use it.
>Use Consequences to make the story more dramatic. Do not use them to turn a success into a failure. Don’t try coming up with clever ways to turn “Yes” into “No.”

That's pretty anti-Wickian GMing advice there.
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>>45237821
>They want to feel like swashbuckling legends and you should help them reach that goal.
>and you should help them reach that goal.
MAYDAY
MAYDAY
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>>45237821
Read the adventure that follows. It if it was any more railroady you could use it to conquer the west.
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>>45237885
So Wick wrote the adventure and everyone else wrote the game? I can only hope.
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>>45237937
That would be a pretty good thing. Now if only it had non-retarded mechanics.
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>>45237885
>It if it was any more railroady you could use it to conquer the west.
Thank you, anon, I needed that laugh. Literally laughed out loud.
>>
The really obvious failing in the core mechanic is, despite telling you to 'make failure interesting' it doesn't do much to support that. You're already stacking some amount of consequence on successes (taking wounds etc), how do you make an outright failure more consequential without being a story ender?

This problem rears its head in the very first die roll of the adventure. Roll some dice to get across the burning room and meet the important NPC. And if you fail (and thus do not achieve that goal) uh...

Uhhh.....
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>>45238292
Doesn't it say that failure shouldn't necessarily mean not achieving a goal, but can just mean achieving it at a cost?
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>>45238664
It says exactly that, actually. There's a lot of shit flinging in the thread.
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>>45239172
At the same time, it's true that the adventure is written in a very railroady fashion. It's a shame, because it's actually written fairly well. It'd be a good adventure if it were ran under most systems. With this one in place, however, this entire, intricate plot is going to come crashing down the moment a player gets a Raise and uses it to make any real change to the story.
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>>45234105
Pleb
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>>45232225
Mind giving a brief on the new system?
>>
Isn't the whole dice rolling mechanic of trying to add dice up to 10 just a convoluted way of saying "divide the sum of the results by 10 and ignore leftovers", mathematically speaking?
>>
i'm curious to see if there are more rules governing what you can use your raises for. for example, in the 2 characters rushing for the door in the burning room scenario; player 1 used 3 raises to get to the door first. could player two have used a raise to throw on a holocaust cloak, and then second to trip player 1? he's not using his raises to get to the door first but he would still be preventing player one from getting to the door. or in that case would player 1 be using a raise to avoid the trip and the other two to get to the door?

I'm intrigued but want to see more before i make a decision.
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>>45240994
maybe if you announce the action of each raise one at a time but keep total number of raises hidden?

but then again, in that example it said that player 2 could stab player 1 on the way to the door knowing that he was going to lose the footrace. but a stab attack should be a totally different skill check (weapons and finesse assuming a fencing blade) compared tot he athletic+brawn check needed to make a run to the door.
seems exploitable
>>
>>45240785
>Anyone got a download link?
d10 dice pool by dots, roll and try to lump dice together to make groups of 10+. Each group of 10 is a raise.

You get one Raise, you did the thing. Additional raises go into doing the thing better or doing the thing so you don't cause other problems.

Drama Dice are now Hero Points, - you can spend them for bonus dice or to activate advantages and magic and shit. You get them when you choose to fuck up, trigger your hubris, or act in ways described by your quirks. Also, if you roll a bunch of 1's, the GM can buy them to give you HP and himself Danger Points, which are like the same thing but for NPC's.

Still trying to figure out how fighting non brutes works.
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>>45240868
Not really. Under this system, with a pool of 5 you could roll 8, 2, 9, 5, 6. That's mathematically 30, but because the system requires you group the dice themselves into groups of 10+, it's only two successes. Or raises, or whatever this system is calling them.
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>>45241160
Like fighting a player. It's sort of a hack of the Cortex mechanics for NPCs, but I'm not sure it will work as well. I feel like the GM doesn't need to spend points out of the danger pool often enough. But, I'll have to try it out first.
>>
>>45240994
>>45241158
The QS rules definitely need to be expanded in step 4. Based on playing HotB and my reading of these rules, I think what he wants is:
1)roll
2)count/group raises
3)behind your hand or whatever, set (bid) some raises for getting what you want, and the others for other effects
4)reveal and determine who gets what they want
5)that person gets what they want
6)raises spent by the loser(s) to get the main thing are lost
7)starting with the player who won, players spend their remaining raises, one at a time, to have other stuff happen
8)Nothing stated by a player can counteract a previous spend. ie. Player 2 can't trip him, but he can steal something from him.
9)I think a player can spend a raise to cancel another raise, but maybe not. I think it's kind of GM's call.

>seems exploitable
All narrative systems are exploitable. It's the GM's job to arbitrate and the players' jobs to not be an asshole about it. Honestly true of all games, though moreso in narrative ones, because there tends to be more freedom about what a character can accomplish.
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