My players (Necromancer) want to try to bring Jesus back.
What should I do in response? I am a little perplexed.
If Jesus has already risen he's brought his body with him. Plus, since he's got the unholy immunity buff along with holy light AoE and Greater turn the undead along with resurrection he could easily out do your necromancer. AND he's considered a high lvl creature (God) idk if your necromancer can do it.
Tell them ''sure, but you need to find the body somehow, assuming it didn't actually ascend as the bible states, and then you need to deal with the fact that this is likely going to cause an apocalypse of some sort''
If they want to do it, you have your campaign practically done for you. They need to track down the body first off, and thats assuming it exists, and then they need to prepare the ritual (fluff it that hes a fragment of God so its not as easy as usual) and then it causes either the Biblical Apocalypse (but the Anti-Christ is distinctly different so meh) or some form of Zombie Apocalypse and the party needs to survive and/or stop it and/or rebuild society.
You can't bring back that which is not dead.
Jesus has eternal life, and isn't a valid target for necromantic effects.
Also, even if he were a suitable target, he's way too high on the scale of power to be brought back by any ability that he does not comply with. Considering there would be no reason to comply, the attempt would fail.
So, you're faced with the choice of either making the smart decision and telling your player that it doesn't make a lick of sense, or you can go the comedic route where you exaggerate the nonsensical aspects.
you decide if Jesus is God in your world.
If he isn't, there's now a jewish preacher from two thousand years ago walking around.
If he is, he isn't dead since he resurrected already.
Ive always liked undead centric campaigns myself. My current campaign has a Lich trying to start an undead apocalypse and the party need to organise resistance before its too late basically and march on the lich.
Im a sucker for the whole ''march on the heart of evil'' type thing to be honest. Like to run it, like to play it, love finding music for the most dramatic moments.
i'm honestly glad that there are no fedoras to shit on this thread
It's like when the Black Lanterns tried to resurrect Dove, in Blackest Night. It doesn't work, but the Necromancer has a brief communion with Jesus, who goes:
> "Look, dude. I appreciate it, really I do. But it's not time yet. I'll be back when I'm good and ready."
> "Also, your parents are proud of you - and they miss you very, very much. Keep on trucking, friend."
According to old Catholic myths his foreskin (since he was circumcised as a child) didn't ascend with him. Which is why there were a dozen or more churches with the ONE AND ONLY TRUE 100% REAL foreskin of Jesus.
Let them have fun checking all of them and hoping that they find the real one.
I assumed this was a historical setting set between jesus' death and his ressurection - the bible records that there were necromancers around in that time, like the Witch of Endor.
Makes sense that necromancers would be behind the ressurection rather than jewish devas - as part of the roman empire at that time, israel would have been a no-go area for any non-mortal divine servant who wasn't connected to the roman pantheon. and the Pharisees would have had a monopoly on True Resurrection capable clerics.
oh man i'm going to call a crusade on your ass so bad
>jesus' death and his ressurection
An entire campaign happening over the course of a weekend?
>Makes sense that necromancers would be behind the ressurection rather than jewish devas - as part of the roman empire at that time, israel would have been a no-go area for any non-mortal divine servant who wasn't connected to the roman pantheon. and the Pharisees would have had a monopoly on True Resurrection capable clerics.
Or Judea's one and only patron deity decides to step in and do it himself, because if you want a job done right that's the only way to do it.
the whole point of the incarnation, really
>fluff it that hes a fragment of God
Now that's what I call heresy.
Huh. Well, theres a way to clone him anyway.
Well, he was the Son of God and God Made Man. The body shouldn't remain at all bar the foreskin seeing as he bodily ascended.
However, if you want to have the body remain you could say that part of the essence of God remains in the body as a way of hinting that the PCs should probably not be trying to resurrect Jesus and, when they ignore this, you can spring some ''you messed with Gods Plan'' shit on them.
Nah yeah (or possibly yeah nah. I can't remember which was "yes" in that particular English-English.)
Churches had relics and people came far off to see them and pray so having the best and coolest relics was good source of profit for the church. And since almost every church had the finger bone of some random saint or a piece of wood from THE cross there was a lot of competition for this and Jesus not leaving a corpse behind was a problem.
Then they remembered the foreskin and the rest is history.
OH FOR FUCK'S SAKE I DIDN'T NEED TO KNOW THIS
Lore states that he's isn't dead, so a necromancer should have no pull with him.
You should still let them try the ritual. Jesus doesn't appear, but the Rapture begins and a pic related campaign starts.
1) Assume Christianity is true: There's no body. Jesus rose from the dead three days after his death. You can't raise what's already alive.
2) Assume Christianity is false
* There was no Jesus. (And in fact the only direct first hand testimony that he lived at all came from Christian religious writings. There are no Jewish or Roman historical records of him, for example.) So nothing to raise.
* There was a Jesus, but he was just a normal human being. You raise him. OK, done. He's just a guy, bewildered and totally out of his depth. Perhaps horrified by the fact that billions of people worship him as an idol. You may not even recognize him as Jesus at all.
* Some other religious tradition that recognizes Jesus differently is true. In Islam, he's an ordinary prophet. In Hinduism, he's just another god. Other religions (and other sects of Christianity) may have other alternative views of him. Pick one and make that true.
3) Fuck with the player without resolving the Jesus question.
* Divinations and archeology can't reveal his body, regardless of how hard you try or how successful you are.
* He can't be raised, and you don't know why.
* Playing with such big mojo or destiny draws you into deep dangerous shit long before you get to the point of actually trying to raise him.
* You think you're raising Jesus, but really some NPCs have tricked you into summoning Dactylartha, Cthulu, Lena Dunham, or Gozer the Destroyer. You'll never get around to figuring out how really to do it; the campaign becomes all about how to clean up the damage from this.
* The plot gets foiled by a plucky group of heroes. <-- DO IT THIS WAY. Your player wants to be the BBEG? OK, but remember BBEG's plots are always foiled in humiliating ways by cute sassy heroes spouting wisecracks and somehow defeating every weapon and defense in your arsenal by a combination of incredible luck, special destiny, and chutzpah. And she'll never, ever sleep w/ you.
But Tacitus only quotes what Christians say about Jesus. His personal observations are limited to the christians he actually sees.
There used to be a passage in Josephus that suggested that he's seen Jesus personally, but then it was discovered to have been a medieval addition-- older copies of the work didn't include the passage, and it was always suspiciously awkward and didn't sound like the rest of his writings. The rest of Josephus again only talks about Christians and their own claims about their own origins.
Christians shouldn't consider this a challenge to their faith, but the historicity of Jesus DOES rest entirely on religious writings by his followers.
Yes it was a story about how american president collects parts of Christ's corpse on the Wild West.
There were also horse races and weredinosaurs.
In context, he's clearly reporting on how Christians describe themselves. He wrote Annals nearly a century after the crucifixion, which happened decades before Tacitus was born. Considering the long list of rebellious Jews crucified in ancient Judea, Tacitus has no reason not to accept that the Christian savior was one of them.
As with Tacitus, modern historians take Christians' word for it. Most biblical characters have no independent historical records associated with them, so this isn't a big deal. There are few definitive records of any kind from that era. There's no evidence to say that Jesus didn't exist, and the gospel accounts are plausible in terms of the everything else we know about that place and time.
The only really concerted effort to deny that Jesus even existed came from the communists-- but that fell apart when the Soviet Union fell. Attempts to prove he didn't exist have all fallen apart.
According to Christians, and shoe-horned into D&D fantasy tropes from the 70s and 80s, Jesus was resurrected and so came back to true life.
Here's a weird question: are there ANY undead in the bible of any kind? I can't think of an example-- except perhaps Jacob lamenting that his spirit would descend into the underworld, but that implies death, not a ghost.
Lots of people come back to life, but it's always true life.
Actual undead? I mean Samuel's spirit was raised by Saul and the witch at Endor, so that's a ghost. But the ghost also told him off about how wrong it was. Other than that, none at all.
>posting protestant fanfiction
Still better than the protestant tier prosperity gospel.
>bring Jesus back.
Why? You already deported him before.
Topic attracts us like moths to the fire..
The witch summoned a spirit, not put one back in a corpse and the corpse shuffles around.
Lazarus would be a good fit, while it appears he was truly resurrected people noted his odor (which was of a corpse). It's unclear whether the rot got better, it's actually kinda unclear how long he lived after that anyway.
>killing a lvl 20+ cleric with divine ranks
>while it appears he was truly resurrected people noted his odor (which was of a corpse
That was before he was resurrected. Jesus said he was going to do it, Mary and Martha were like "bro it'll smell, pls don't" and THEN he called Lazarus out.
I was pretty sure he smelled afterwards too, but I might be misremembering (I don't have my bible at my desk here, to my shame) or they might have been referring to his shroud. Which would have stunk.
From the NIV, because I'm a filthy casual
>Jesus, once more deeply moved, came to the tomb. It was a cave with a stone laid across the entrance. "Take away the stone," he said.
>"But Lord," said Martha, the sister of the dead man, "by this time there is a bad odor, for he has been there four days."
>Then Jesus said "Did I not tell you that if you believe, you will see the glory of God?"
>So they took away the stone. Then Jesus called in a loud voice, "Lazarus, come out!" The dead man came out, his hands and feet wrapped with strips of linen, and a cloth around his face.
>Jesus said to the "Take off the grave clothes and let him go."
So they said it smelled before he came out (because logically it would, corpses and shit). But I wouldn't at all doubt that the burial shroud was fucking rank, no wonder he told them to take it off.
God raised a zombie army once IIRC.
Here we go, Ezekiel 37
>3 He asked me, “Son of man, can these bones live?”
I said, “Sovereign Lord, you alone know.”
4 Then he said to me, “Prophesy to these bones and say to them, ‘Dry bones, hear the word of the Lord! 5 This is what the Sovereign Lord says to these bones: I will make breath[a] enter you, and you will come to life. 6 I will attach tendons to you and make flesh come upon you and cover you with skin; I will put breath in you, and you will come to life. Then you will know that I am the Lord.’”
7 So I prophesied as I was commanded. And as I was prophesying, there was a noise, a rattling sound, and the bones came together, bone to bone. 8 I looked, and tendons and flesh appeared on them and skin covered them, but there was no breath in them.
9 Then he said to me, “Prophesy to the breath; prophesy, son of man, and say to it, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: Come, breath, from the four winds and breathe into these slain, that they may live.’” 10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and breath entered them; they came to life and stood up on their feet—a vast army.
Jesus is literally almighty God incarnate on Earth, at least from a Christian perspective. I don't care how powerful your Necromancer is, he will not be able to force an omnipotent deity back into His earthly body.
God loves Necromancy.
>And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit. At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. They came out of the tombs after Jesus' resurrection and went into the holy city and appeared to many people.
No it isn't necromancy. It is to show his power over death. When death is seen as the ultimate end, being able to defeat death like it is nothing bring glory upon the one who does it. Life defeating death
well I'll hold against that Luke 22:38, Luke 22:47-51 and especially Matthew 26:51, that Jesus didn't mean actually to buy swords but to now be guarding themselves since they wouldn't be under his protection anymore.
and then this happens
and all that gets thrown out the window
>When death is seen as the ultimate end
The Bible is so fucking adamant about talking about how death ISN'T the ultimate end, so that can't possibly be the point of the story.
No, it still applies. What he means is, "I do not bring peace to you, but the sword, since you will be persecuted for following me and even your family will turn against you." Which is like the next line. He doesn't mean "I bring you swords to kill everyone! Death to the enemies of God!"
At least Christianity has a ton of high quality writing to discuss. This board would be improved if people debated St. Augustine instead of holding dick measuring contests for Space Marines. We could even keep all the heresy memes.
>At least Christianity has a ton of high quality writing to discuss.
Eh. I wouldn't call anything in the bible "high quality literature".
I mean, it's certainly influenced tons of great fantasy, sure. I like what people have done with it, but the core itself isn't that great.
Every fiction author's depiction of any devils, demons, and angels are cooler than the dumb-ass shit old Jews made up.
No, the Bible sucks dick. What people wrote about the Bible and the thousands of years of theological discussion it spawned, that's what's interesting. If you seriously believe that the average pulp fantasy novel proposes more interesting ideas that the entirety of Christian debate over the centuries, you're insane.
> turn game into zombie survival game with magic
> religious folks all over the world give themselves to the hungry masses awaiting eternal paradise
> non religious folks realize that they were wrong all along and are roaming the planet in order to dongood and undo their sins
> everyone wants to die a martyr in order to achieve acess to heaven
I think a rapture apocalypse game would be rad as hell, especially if you work in all the supernatural weirdness that's supposed to pop up once that shot goes down. Problem is it'd be impossible to find the right balance of players who won't get offended but also won't go full fedora-tip over every mention of religion.
Minus the confusion due to the brood of my followers hiding simply stalking until certain events transpire is hilarious to say the least, I will bring clarity in and fromnthw confusion to prove that the light need not waste its time on the petty
He was just one of many of self proclaimed messiahs at the time. Rumors about some rising from the dead went around after they kicked the bucket, no real reason why Jesus needs to be different. If he even was a real person and not a literary invention of Apostle Paul, that is.
What kind of /tg/ would Calvin play?
In fact, would he even play anything /tg/ at all? He sure didn't like organized sports, and his favorite game has new rules every time you play
Canonicality of magic is a can of worms. For example in the medieval period magic was thought to be impossible given how only God can work miracles. By this definition necromancy either doesn't work, is a part of natural order as a natural science or is an Act of God.
New Testament isn't that adamant about life after death neither. All the times Jesus talks about his Kingdom Coming he might as well talked about something that was supposed to physically happen. Early christians believed that their master will come for them during their lives. Idea of heaven came later as it was harder and harder to justify the waiting.
It also sort of happened in the Matthew.
>And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, and came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
>All the times Jesus talks about his Kingdom Coming he might as well talked about something that was supposed to physically happen
Well that's the thing, none of the writes ACTUALLY KNEW what they wanted the story to be about, because none of the gospel authors collaborated or talked to eachother about how the story supposedly went. All of them had different ideas of who Jesus was and what he did and what was coming.
None of them ever met Jesus, he was dead long before they were even alive, and some of the authors (Paul specifically) very obviously didn't even think Jesus was a real person. Paul's writings pretty clearly indicate that he thought Jesus was just this spirit-being that told people stuff, but wasn't an actual guy. It's not until the later books where Jesus morphed from just this really nice guy who did some nice things and spoke wise shit, to this crazy superhero who stopped the sun from moving and raised the dead and did all kinds of nuts shit, because why the fuck not.
And that's not even getting into the Apocrypha. Jesus was a DICK as a kid.
Well, they kind of sort of collaborated. Even if just in one direction. Luke is quite clearly based on Mark, Matthew of both Mark and Luke. But yeah. Paul was actually pretty clear that Jesus DIDN'T done any miracles whatsoever.
I have to assume people were not cool with this.
I mean, where did the risen dead go? They walked into town, said hi to their relatives, and then...what? They stayed there? They flew up into the sky like ghosts? What was Jesus' plan for reanimating a ton of zombies of old people?
Even if they weren't rotting corpses, they still took up space, ate food, and shit everywhere. I bet everyone was pissed when they suddenly had to feed their own family, plus three generations of dead relatives.
an other religious thread ruined by fedoras, it was fun while it lasted
Only saints resurrected, whatever the fuck in a pre-christian time that was supposed to mean. But then again Matthew was writing it like two centuries after the fact so he might got slightly confused.
Oh, no doubt that later authors stole huge bits from the ones that had written before them. But it was sort of like a bad game of telephone, with everyone taking this story and adding their own details, so it matched the way they thought it would sound cool.
But all the stories of Jesus doing crazy stuff, like the loaves and fishes and resurrecting after three days, none of that was ever mentioned in the early books.
Well, he sure as fuck wasn't writing based on any historical record, because you'd think that dead people rising out of their graves and walking into town is something someone might have written down.
I wonder if anyone in Jerusalem at the time got a copy of Matt's writings and was like "No, man. This never happened. Come on, man."
You are an absolutely dumb retard. Wow how can anyone be so fucking retarded?
All the gospels were written based of direct eye witnesses. They were all using information earlier than the Sack of Jerusalem in 60AD.
And the Bible is adamant about the New Heaven and New Earth, and Jesus being in Heaven and His body not being on Earth.
Jesus wasn't a dick as a kid. All He did was be at the temple for a few days when his parents couldn't find Him, which was a logical thing to happen judging from the fact that both parents knew he was the son of God
Literally NOTHING in the Bible or early Church documents indicates that they thought He was anything other than the Son of God who saved mankind from annihilation.
Anyone who disagreed, was kicked out because of lies and not following the Truth.
I'm not gonna respond to the b8 parts, obvs. But this was funny;
>Jesus wasn't a dick as a kid. All He did was be at the temple for a few days when his parents couldn't find Him
Yeah, except for that time he KILLED HIS FRIEND AND THEN BROUGHT HIM BACK TO LIFE SO HIS FRIEND COULD TELL PEOPLE JESUS DIDN'T DO IT.
You and I are not thinking of the same story.
I'm talking about the part in the Infancy Gospel of Jesus where he knocks his friend off a roof and kills him, and then all the adults are mad at Jesus, so he brings the kid back to life to say it wasn't his fault.
But, you know, it's Apocrypha. Which means it wasn't voted into the Bible because it wasn't widely read at the time, or was written "too late" to make it in.
I Am one with the will of God as the wheels turn certain things are discovered and shown regardless of the asinine attitude of those who mock God and wish for his existence to be denied they only deny themselves and who he is in his enitirety. By denying me you deny God, you deny me, you deny life.
apocrypha wasn't part of the Bible because it's not historically accurate or relevant.
Some of the stories if not most in the apocrypha are stupid and ridiculous and serve no purpose.
Like there is no reason why the Son of God would be like other people in terms of bad behaviour.
>apocrypha wasn't part of the Bible because it's not historically accurate or relevant.
That's not true at all. The books that make up the Apocrypha wasn't voted into the canon for tons of reasons, but the primary ones are that there wasn't a very wide readership for them, or that they were considered to have been written too late, since new stories about Jesus were being written and circulated almost right up to the Council of Nicea.
The main reason the gospels that made it into the canon were chosen was because they were what was being read by the majority of people in the major religious centers, and thus they would be the most popular ones that would cause the collected works to circulate more favorably among the masses. Sure, SOME of them weren't chosen because of the image of Jesus that they painted, but to claim that they weren't "historically accurate" is ridiculous, because none of the books, at any time in history, were ever tested for any sort of actual historicity. I mean, fuck, if they were, the entire Old Testament would have been removed, because literally none of that shit ever happened.
And please, don't start telling me that somehow Jesus raising all the zombies in Jerusalem, or making the sun stop in the sky was somehow less stupid and ridiculous than him raising his friend from the dead.
Also, let's not forget that there are many versions of the bible that include books other versions consider to be apocryphal.
thanks for that, I couldn't be bothered double checking for myself, but what you say sounds reasonable and doesn't contradict with anything I believe.
the ridiculous I was talking about wasn't Jesus resurrecting his friend, it was the idea of him accidentally killing a friend then being reluctant to heal him.
Also that it clashes with Jesus performing his first miracle when he became of age, but that wouldn't change the most important part of what his purpose was for on earth.
it's pretty hard to fake dying via crucifixion.
SBR makes me feel, uncomfortable, to say the least
So then be righteous in your ways and perfect certain things so you dont have to deal with the hypnotizing amazment of certain things which cause you to envy what will be to come.
>it was the idea of him accidentally killing a friend then being reluctant to heal him.
>Also that it clashes with Jesus performing his first miracle when he became of age, but that wouldn't change the most important part of what his purpose was for on earth.
I think you're really unclear about some major details about this:
First, Jesus wasn't a real person. Not in the sense that we understand it today. Jesus, as you know the character, is an amalgamation of stories, legends, fables, and second- and third-hand retelling of stories no one was around to hear to begin with. The character of Jesus as you think about it, is not actually a real person with a real biography.
Now, the second thing you gotta know is that because the original Jewish texts about Jesus and the story of the messiah were so popular, people at the time were hungry for any information they could get about his life, especially his childhood. But this was like, the second century CE, so 170 years or so after he supposedly died. People wrote a ton of stuff on the subject, and lots of people read it, but none of it was accepted into the canon. Remember, the biblical canon was voted on by committee.
Third, even ridiculous books like Revelations, as well as parts of Peter, John, etc., were all considered to be apocryphal at some point in time. They all ended up in the "official" canon, but lots of early collections didn't include any of these works, because they were considered way too nuts and cluttering the message of the budding church. So make of that what you will.
Isn't Second Coming Jesus geared up to fuck up a Dragon?
>And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.
Second coming will be full eldritch-mode.
This has been proven time and time again, where they see what is false I see the validity known as life. Regardless of how certain people feel about certain subjectes it does not matter what they feel on the matter due to the fact that they are spiritually defecit and enslaved by their own cages. I am not binded by preconceived notions of enlightenment. I enlighten the light which seeks to shine bright like a diamond.
Read the Revelation, dude.
>And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind. And the first beast was like a lion, and the second beast like a calf, and the third beast had a face as a man, and the fourth beast was like a flying eagle. And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.
I Am contemporary goy.
Fear me not.
For this is what you ordered.
Do you dare spit in the face of God as my angels subordinates currently possess you?
What happened to that man who robbed a church and tried to run from the cops.
That not even close to the "Schrodinger's Jesus" scenario.
Jesus, and everything associated with him, is in a state of superposition, both existant and non, until we crack open the relevant box.
Isn't Mary from David's lineage? I mean, Solomon fucked a LOT of chicks last I recall. At least 1000 of them.
Shit, I bet half of the Jews could be descended from David at the time.
Would be hard to neckromance him.
You know, since he didn't actually die, he was lifted into heaven in his living body after all. Honestly your necromancer should've been a priest to do that or a summoner.
>The bright and morning star.
Finally you revealed yourself, Lucifer. Now begone! The power of Christ compels you!
Well you know, god probably wouldn't be to happy about it.
Tell your necromancer player that turning into a sentient pillar of salt is the least worst thing godaroonie will do to you if you piss him of. Motherfucker flooded the earth cause he disliked how people were acting.
I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star
Because cain killed abel I slayed goliath
They called me bully killer back in the day.
Tell him to go to the positive energy plane/seven heavenly planes/heaven equivalent and ask him to come back around. Or, if he isn't there, let the necromancer know that he'll be making friends with what amounts to a very eccentric (but good hearted) jewish carpenter.
If the former approach is valid, I suggest he and the rest of his party take some time to explore the world and get done what they have to get done. They won't have time to do so afterward, and they might not have the world either. Not the one they knew.
I don't think it's true that Galileo said it, but according to wikipedia it was mentioned in some kind of vague book.
Under literary allusions
>The Holy Prepuce of Calcata is worthy of special mention, as the reliquary containing the Holy Foreskin was paraded through the streets of this Italian village as recently as 1983 on the Feast of the Circumcision, which was formerly marked by the Roman Catholic Church around the world on January 1 each year.
>The practice ended, however, when thieves stole the jewel-encrusted case, contents and all.
TWAS TOO BIG A BAIT FOR THE THIEVING MOHELS OF ITALY TO PASS UP IT SEEMS!